In article , "Lee Michaels" wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote

Thanks for asking. He's doing pretty well, has one year of college under his
belt now, and is working two jobs this summer to earn money for the fall
semester. He's also about half-way through a fairly ambitious project on his
car ('96 Firebird, 3600 V6): swapping out the automatic transmission for a
five-speed stick. Car's up on jackstands in the garage now. I'll be helping
him put the manual transmission in there tomorrow evening after he gets home
from work.

A pontiac firebird, eh? A classic muscle car. And since pontiacs are now an
endabgered species, it will probably be worth some money someday.

Tell him to take care of it and it will turn into an investment of sorts one
of these days.

Probably too late for that... the car was trashed by the second-previous
owner -- DWI, ran off the road and over some object that tore the oil pan off,
with consequent ruination of the engine. My wife's brother bought the wreck
and a replacement engine, then he and my son spent the summer two years ago
putting it back together, and when they were finished my son bought it from
him. About six months later, my son crashed it and tore up the front end
pretty badly -- he and I spent last spring restoring it. So I'm not sure
there's a lot of investment potential left any more...

And he is one of the good ones. He is gonna make you proud of him, again and
again.

Thanks for the kind words, Lee.

In article , "Bill" wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...

Doug Miller, Thank you for your reply. It is very informative and helpful!


4. Any problem with ripping down all of the drywall around the main panel
for a while so I can "see everything"?

Yes: you create a lot of unnecessary drywall repair work for yourself.


Well, the drywall there is probably almost 40 years old and on it's second
main panel. As long as I am replacing 3/4 of the drywall on 2 walls, maybe 3 before I'm
finished, I may as well make the drywall near the main panel look Nice! : )

Oh, well, as long as you're redoing most of the drywall anyway...


If the feed to the subpanel is coming from lugs in the main panel, then yes,
you need to power off the main. If it's coming from a circuit breaker in the
main panel -- which is a much better idea -- then there's really no need to
power off the main as long as you don't put your fingers in places they don't
belong. Make sure that the circuit breaker feeding the subpanel is off before
you connect the feed to it, otherwise the shaft of your screwdriver becomes
live, which could lead to unpleasant surprises. And let's be clear he I am
NOT talking about the disconnect breaker in the subpanel; I'm talking about
the breaker that you put in the main panel to connect the subpanel feed from.


I'll tell ya Mr. Miller. There are folks here who don't believe I should be
doing anything to any walls that have any live wires in them!

Wusses. g

If you have to cut into a wall that you know, or suspect, has live wires
inside it, use a utility knife. Not a saw. A utility knife won't extend
through the drywall far enough to hit a wire, and even if it does the wire
will simply move out of the way.

I appreciate the precision
with which you have described the operation above. It reminds me of an anecdote which
I have found humorous since I heard it:

There was a old blues singer, "Big Joe Williams" who frequented the
barrelhouses and who I believe, besides for his music, was known for his temper,
fighting, drinking and just being a "rough character". One day he decided he wanted to buy a gun.
His friends escorted him to an purveyor of firearms (i.e. a gun store). They said to
the store owner, "Mr. Williams here would like to buy a gun", meanwhile standing
behind Joe Williams emphatically shaking their heads and mouthing "No, No,
No!"

:-)

I suspect that what you wrote may have caused a similar reaction from some
readers. Maybe they'll speak up if I am correct. : ) I doubt that I'll be adding
any CBs to any live panels anytime soon...

That's up to you. Certainly it's safer to kill the power to the panel first,
but if you're careful about where you put your fingers it's only slightly
safer.

At SWMBO's insistence, I never work in live panels alone. And at *my*
insistence, SWMBO never works in live panels at all. She knows what she's
doing (degreed engineer). The issue is that she knows CPR, and I don't.

Another rule of thumb is to keep one hand in your pocket or behind your back.
If you're wearing rubber-soled shoes, it's nearly (but not completely)
impossible to get a fatal shock if you have only one hand in the panel. The
greatest danger in AC comes when the current passes across the heart: from
hand to hand, or from hand to opposite foot. I've been stung a couple of
times; that encourages a healthy respect for 120VAC, but it also helps to
dispel exaggerated fears of it too. The last time, about five years ago, the
back of my hand was against the panel chassis and I inadvertently brushed the
tip of my index finger against a live busbar, so the grounding path was just
the length of my finger plus half of my hand. I felt it up the the shoulder;
half an hour later, I could still feel it in my elbow. It *hurts*. Make no
mistake about that. But I'm still alive.

Thank you again for your assistance. I'm hope to make meaningful progress
during the next week.

You're quite welcome, Bill. Keep asking questions -- it's the best way to
learn.

In article , Luigi Zanasi wrote:

[...]
But that's OK, don't be afraid. You can trust any wiring and
electrical advice from anybody on the wreck, apply it and be
absolutely sure that it will meet code and be perfectly safe. No point
in getting ripped off by electricians or consulting an inspector. Just
ask away on the group and you can be sure of getting a whole lot of
accurate and consistent responses, just like when you ask any math
question of all the rocket scientists on the wreck.

Actually, most of the electrical advice given here *is* sound, and there are
enough people here who understand it well that unsound advice meets with rapid
and accurate refutation.

If you're concerned about any advice you get here, try asking the same
questions over at alt.home.repair -- several professional electricians
used to post there regularly, but the only one I remember seeing there
recently is "RBM".

In article , DJ Delorie wrote:

As for putting two 120v outlets on a single 240v wire - check with your
local code and find out what the rules are. Most likely, you'll at
least need to use a ganged breaker to protect the branch properly.

Yes. That's required by Code now. It didn't use to be.

In article , "Bill" wrote:
My understanding of the NEC is that one cannot have a duplex outlet within
30 inches to the left of right of a main panel or subpanel.
This is correct, is it not?

I'm not aware of any such requirement. Ask whoever told you that to show you
where the Code says that.

"Bill" wrote in
:


"Luigi Zanasi" wrote in message
news:9ca52b6c-e329-4a93-bc9a-

Bill, here is something from the Antifaq I hope it helps:

5.1 HOW DO I WIRE MY SHOP?

As my friend Doug, the journeyman cabinetmaker, says...



Luigi Zanasi, I see you pasted from something called
"rec.woodworking's Antifaq". I never saw it referenced here before.
Since you didn't post any of your own words, unless you wrote the
Antifaq, what point were you trying to make? Sorry, if your post was
intended as a joke--sometime humor passes by me unnoticed as such.

Best,
Bill



Luigi seems to be the keeper of the Anti-FAQ. Read it when you've got
time, it's well worth it. (Be sure to clear the space between your
tongue and cheek--you'll need it.)

Btw, at the bottom of the Anti-FAQ there's a copyright note:
Real copyright:
Copyright (c)1998-2005 by Luigi Zanasi all rights reserved. You can't
copy this thing for any reason. It's now mine, mine, mine, mine,
mine. I stole it fair & square. Neener neener!

Puckdropper
--
Never teach your apprentice everything you know.

Get a qualified electrician to do it. This guy is going to get you killed.


"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
In article , "Bill"
wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...

Doug Miller, Thank you for your reply. It is very informative and helpful!


4. Any problem with ripping down all of the drywall around the main
panel
for a while so I can "see everything"?

Yes: you create a lot of unnecessary drywall repair work for yourself.


Well, the drywall there is probably almost 40 years old and on it's second
main panel. As long as I am replacing 3/4 of the drywall on 2 walls, maybe
3 before I'm
finished, I may as well make the drywall near the main panel look Nice!
: )

Oh, well, as long as you're redoing most of the drywall anyway...


If the feed to the subpanel is coming from lugs in the main panel, then
yes,
you need to power off the main. If it's coming from a circuit breaker in
the
main panel -- which is a much better idea -- then there's really no need
to
power off the main as long as you don't put your fingers in places they
don't
belong. Make sure that the circuit breaker feeding the subpanel is off
before
you connect the feed to it, otherwise the shaft of your screwdriver
becomes
live, which could lead to unpleasant surprises. And let's be clear he
I am
NOT talking about the disconnect breaker in the subpanel; I'm talking
about
the breaker that you put in the main panel to connect the subpanel feed
from.


I'll tell ya Mr. Miller. There are folks here who don't believe I should
be
doing anything to any walls that have any live wires in them!

Wusses. g

If you have to cut into a wall that you know, or suspect, has live wires
inside it, use a utility knife. Not a saw. A utility knife won't extend
through the drywall far enough to hit a wire, and even if it does the wire
will simply move out of the way.

I appreciate the precision
with which you have described the operation above. It reminds me of an
anecdote which
I have found humorous since I heard it:

There was a old blues singer, "Big Joe Williams" who frequented the
barrelhouses and who I believe, besides for his music, was known for his
temper,
fighting, drinking and just being a "rough character". One day he decided
he wanted to buy a gun.
His friends escorted him to an purveyor of firearms (i.e. a gun store).
They said to
the store owner, "Mr. Williams here would like to buy a gun", meanwhile
standing
behind Joe Williams emphatically shaking their heads and mouthing "No, No,
No!"

:-)

I suspect that what you wrote may have caused a similar reaction from some
readers. Maybe they'll speak up if I am correct. : ) I doubt that I'll
be adding
any CBs to any live panels anytime soon...

That's up to you. Certainly it's safer to kill the power to the panel first,
but if you're careful about where you put your fingers it's only slightly
safer.

At SWMBO's insistence, I never work in live panels alone. And at *my*
insistence, SWMBO never works in live panels at all. She knows what she's
doing (degreed engineer). The issue is that she knows CPR, and I don't.

Another rule of thumb is to keep one hand in your pocket or behind your
back.
If you're wearing rubber-soled shoes, it's nearly (but not completely)
impossible to get a fatal shock if you have only one hand in the panel. The
greatest danger in AC comes when the current passes across the heart: from
hand to hand, or from hand to opposite foot. I've been stung a couple of
times; that encourages a healthy respect for 120VAC, but it also helps to
dispel exaggerated fears of it too. The last time, about five years ago, the
back of my hand was against the panel chassis and I inadvertently brushed
the
tip of my index finger against a live busbar, so the grounding path was just
the length of my finger plus half of my hand. I felt it up the the shoulder;
half an hour later, I could still feel it in my elbow. It *hurts*. Make no
mistake about that. But I'm still alive.

Thank you again for your assistance. I'm hope to make meaningful progress
during the next week.

You're quite welcome, Bill. Keep asking questions -- it's the best way to
learn.



--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---

Luigi is giving you good advice, here.

If you are not familiar with electrical work or the electrical code get a
qualified electrician that can wire these things properly for you. You have
received some advice that can be very dangerous, here.

If an Electrical Inpsector finds some of it you may be taking your wiring
out and redoing some. That can get frustrating and costly.



"Bill" wrote in message
...
Luigi,

Your concerns are well-taken. But I do not require a lot of consistent
responses.
I think if 3 different contractors showed up at my door, they would not be
consistent.
I do not even think they would try to understand my needs as well as the
folks here do. I have earned a PhD in mathematics so I can field at least
some of your math questions with some authority, just as some of the
folks here have been able to field my questions about electricity with the
same sort of authority. I think you are under-estimating the amount of
intellect
which is here. Why you choose to take this point of view I am uncertain.
I think it is not so difficult to separate the wheat from the chaff. It is
more
difficult to navigate my attic--but I am working on that! : ) I wonder
how many
people learned something useful about GFCI today? I know I did--or at
least, I think I did!

Best,
Bill





"Luigi Zanasi" wrote in message
news:9ca52b6c-e329-4a93-bc9a-

Just ask away on the group and you can be sure of getting a whole lot of
accurate and consistent responses, just like when you ask any math
question of all the rocket scientists on the wreck.





--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---

On Jun 2, 5:58*am, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article , "Bill" wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...

I'll tell ya Mr. Miller. *There are folks here who don't believe I should be
doing anything to any walls that have any live wires in them!

Wusses. g

If you have to cut into a wall that you know, or suspect, has live wires
inside it, use a utility knife. Not a saw. A utility knife won't extend
through the drywall far enough to hit a wire, and even if it does the wire
will simply move out of the way.

This is one place a Roto-Zip works wonders. I had a similar situation
with plumbing known to be behind the wall (the builder stuck the
mounting hardware through the main drain line from the upstairs
bathroom). Set the Roto-Zip depth to 1/2" and have at it. Finish with
knife.

Roto-Zips make a mess, but the cuttings are larger than a lot of saws
so it's easier to clean up.

In article , "Josepi" X-Complaints-to: . wrote:
Get a qualified electrician to do it. This guy is going to get you killed.

LMAO. You're completely clueless.

Still think you can see a framing nail at 500 meters?


"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
In article , "Bill"
wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...

Doug Miller, Thank you for your reply. It is very informative and helpful!


4. Any problem with ripping down all of the drywall around the main
panel
for a while so I can "see everything"?

Yes: you create a lot of unnecessary drywall repair work for yourself.


Well, the drywall there is probably almost 40 years old and on it's second
main panel. As long as I am replacing 3/4 of the drywall on 2 walls, maybe
3 before I'm
finished, I may as well make the drywall near the main panel look Nice!
: )

Oh, well, as long as you're redoing most of the drywall anyway...


If the feed to the subpanel is coming from lugs in the main panel, then
yes,
you need to power off the main. If it's coming from a circuit breaker in
the
main panel -- which is a much better idea -- then there's really no need
to
power off the main as long as you don't put your fingers in places they
don't
belong. Make sure that the circuit breaker feeding the subpanel is off
before
you connect the feed to it, otherwise the shaft of your screwdriver
becomes
live, which could lead to unpleasant surprises. And let's be clear he
I am
NOT talking about the disconnect breaker in the subpanel; I'm talking
about
the breaker that you put in the main panel to connect the subpanel feed
from.


I'll tell ya Mr. Miller. There are folks here who don't believe I should
be
doing anything to any walls that have any live wires in them!

Wusses. g

If you have to cut into a wall that you know, or suspect, has live wires
inside it, use a utility knife. Not a saw. A utility knife won't extend
through the drywall far enough to hit a wire, and even if it does the wire
will simply move out of the way.

I appreciate the precision
with which you have described the operation above. It reminds me of an
anecdote which
I have found humorous since I heard it:

There was a old blues singer, "Big Joe Williams" who frequented the
barrelhouses and who I believe, besides for his music, was known for his
temper,
fighting, drinking and just being a "rough character". One day he decided
he wanted to buy a gun.
His friends escorted him to an purveyor of firearms (i.e. a gun store).
They said to
the store owner, "Mr. Williams here would like to buy a gun", meanwhile
standing
behind Joe Williams emphatically shaking their heads and mouthing "No, No,
No!"

:-)

I suspect that what you wrote may have caused a similar reaction from some
readers. Maybe they'll speak up if I am correct. : ) I doubt that I'll
be adding
any CBs to any live panels anytime soon...

That's up to you. Certainly it's safer to kill the power to the panel first,
but if you're careful about where you put your fingers it's only slightly
safer.

At SWMBO's insistence, I never work in live panels alone. And at *my*
insistence, SWMBO never works in live panels at all. She knows what she's
doing (degreed engineer). The issue is that she knows CPR, and I don't.

Another rule of thumb is to keep one hand in your pocket or behind your
back.
If you're wearing rubber-soled shoes, it's nearly (but not completely)
impossible to get a fatal shock if you have only one hand in the panel. The
greatest danger in AC comes when the current passes across the heart: from
hand to hand, or from hand to opposite foot. I've been stung a couple of
times; that encourages a healthy respect for 120VAC, but it also helps to
dispel exaggerated fears of it too. The last time, about five years ago, the
back of my hand was against the panel chassis and I inadvertently brushed
the
tip of my index finger against a live busbar, so the grounding path was just
the length of my finger plus half of my hand. I felt it up the the shoulder;
half an hour later, I could still feel it in my elbow. It *hurts*. Make no
mistake about that. But I'm still alive.

Thank you again for your assistance. I'm hope to make meaningful progress
during the next week.

You're quite welcome, Bill. Keep asking questions -- it's the best way to
learn.



--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---

In article , "Josepi" X-Complaints-to: . wrote:
Luigi is giving you good advice, here.

If you are not familiar with electrical work or the electrical code get a
qualified electrician that can wire these things properly for you. You have
received some advice that can be very dangerous, here.

Time to put up or shut up, Josepi. Specifically what "very dangerous" advice
has he received, and why is it dangerous?

On Jun 1, 8:11*pm, "Bill" wrote:
"DerbyDad03" wrote in message

news:be4235af-adbc-4050-8fbe-

The top of my workbench overhangs the support frame by about 5 inches.
I put a 120V duplex every 2.5 feet or so along the frame under the
overhang, facing out into the shop.

This keeps the top of the workbench clear of cords running from the
back wall (as pictured in your "garage" sketch) when using sanders,
heat guns, etc.

DD,

This is a nice idea. *Is the workbench powered using a male-male extension
cord to the wall?
Sorry if the answer is obvious.

Bill

"Is the workbench powered using a male-male extension cord to the
wall?"

I was hoping nobody would ask that question!

The workbench is a rather old structure (1950's?) that came with the
house. It is basically framed with full-sized 2 x 4's (doubled up for
the legs) and topped with 2 x 8's, upon which I added 1/4" hardboard
to get a smooth yet replaceable work surface. The unit is just over 8'
long and about 3' deep. It's a rather hefty unit.

It is more or less "permanently" wired into the shop. There is a
junction box attached to a back leg of the workbench with a run of
12/2 NM from a junction box in the ceiling. From the workbench
junction box I ran more 12/2 along the frame and attached the outlets
in surface mount boxes.

I assume the junction box attached to the workbench is probably not
code, but based on the weight of the workbench and it's location, it's
not something that ever gets moved. If it needed to be moved, I would
disconnect the wires in the ceiling box so no live wires would be
exposed.

What would be required to bring this up to code? Would a male-male be
required? Would just a male pig-tail from the junction box to a
receptacle be better? Or is it OK as is?

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
In article
, Luigi
Zanasi wrote:

[...]
But that's OK, don't be afraid. You can trust any wiring and
electrical advice from anybody on the wreck, apply it and be
absolutely sure that it will meet code and be perfectly safe. No point
in getting ripped off by electricians or consulting an inspector. Just
ask away on the group and you can be sure of getting a whole lot of
accurate and consistent responses, just like when you ask any math
question of all the rocket scientists on the wreck.

Actually, most of the electrical advice given here *is* sound, and there
are
enough people here who understand it well that unsound advice meets with
rapid
and accurate refutation.

If you're concerned about any advice you get here, try asking the same
questions over at alt.home.repair -- several professional electricians
used to post there regularly, but the only one I remember seeing there
recently is "RBM".


That reminds me, got to get the refund on my home wiring book ...

On Jun 2, 1:58*pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article , DerbyDad03 wrote:
[...]



Thanks Doug.

One minor point (question?)

You said "IOW, you're not permitted to install armored cable loose in
the air. "

No where is there any cable "loose in the air". The cable from the
ceiling box is stapled to boards that is TapCon-ed to the block wall
in the corner of the shop and behind a cabinet. The NM cable is
secured within inches of both junction boxes, as well as along it's
run along the boards.

Okay, that changes things a bit. I had pictured a free-standing bench. Not so?
Your bench is right up against a wall?

Yes. Small shop, workbench is in a corner, therefore against *two*
walls. The "open end" has the junction box attached to the upper
portion of the back leg. The space between the workbench and the other
side wall is filled with a free standing metal cabinet.

If that's the case, then armored cable is definitely OK, and if you can
persuade your local inspector that the location is not "subject to physical
damage" then exposed NM, MC, or individual conductors in any type of flexible
conduit will be too.



Things would have to go horribly wrong in the shop for the run from
the ceiling junction box to the workbench junction box to be damaged.
And I mean just about total devastation.

All in all, I've always felt the installation was as you noted: "It's
mostly safe. But it definitely does not comply with Code".

The use of Type SJ (or similar) cable to a receptacle would be a
simple fix - other than the fact that I need to empty and move the
cabinet to gain access to the area. There's no telling what's lurking
in the bowels of that cabinet. ;-)


*That* may be a Code violation (junction boxes are required to be accessible).

What the code definition of "accessible"? Can it be behind a free
standing cabinet? Or a dryer? Or a couch?

Does it have to be in plain sight so you can walk right up and touch
it?

In article , DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Jun 2, 1:58=A0pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
[...]
Okay, that changes things a bit. I had pictured a free-standing bench. Not so?
Your bench is right up against a wall?

Yes. Small shop, workbench is in a corner, therefore against *two*
walls. The "open end" has the junction box attached to the upper
portion of the back leg. The space between the workbench and the other
side wall is filled with a free standing metal cabinet.

Heck, in that case, you probably meet code with the existing cable if you just
secure the bench to the wall(s) and/or the floor -- anything that makes the
bench actually attached to the structure of the building.
[...]

What the code definition of "accessible"?

"Capable of being removed or exposed without damaging the building structure
or finish or not permanently closed in by the structure or finish of the
building." [2008 NEC, Article 100]

Can it be behind a free standing cabinet?

Not if the cabinet is permanently installed. OK if the cabinet can be moved
out of the way without damaging anything.

Or a dryer? Or a couch?

Yes to both.

Does it have to be in plain sight so you can walk right up and touch
it?

No. The master bath in my house has a junction box concealed behind a large
mirror -- but the mirror is in a channel that permits sliding it aside. That
box is "accessible".

The Code has another term, "readily accessible", which is much more
restrictive. The gist of it is that if in order to get to something you have
to move anything out of the way, or fetch a ladder or a stool, then it isn't
"readily accessible". Breaker panels, fuse boxes, service disconnects, etc.
are required to be "readily accessible". Junction boxes need only be
"accessible".

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
In article , "Bill"
wrote:
My understanding of the NEC is that one cannot have a duplex outlet within
30 inches to the left of right of a main panel or subpanel.
This is correct, is it not?

I'm not aware of any such requirement. Ask whoever told you that to show
you
where the Code says that.

Doug,
I recall reading (from some authoritative source) that, according to the
NEC, the space above and below a main panel is to be free and so is the
space 30" in front of it. I'm still searching for that source now. I had
been wondering how close to the sides of a subpanel I can locate a 120v
duplex outlet. From looking other remarks in the NEC, it does not appear to
be as concerned about the sides, as it doesn't expect a panel to be serviced
from the sides. Does this sound famililar to you? I'll keep looking for
the original source of my concern. I appreciate your posts.

Bill

On 6/2/2010 3:19 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Jun 2, 1:58 pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In , wrote:
[...]



Thanks Doug.

One minor point (question?)

You said "IOW, you're not permitted to install armored cable loose in
the air. "

No where is there any cable "loose in the air". The cable from the
ceiling box is stapled to boards that is TapCon-ed to the block wall
in the corner of the shop and behind a cabinet. The NM cable is
secured within inches of both junction boxes, as well as along it's
run along the boards.

Okay, that changes things a bit. I had pictured a free-standing bench. Not so?
Your bench is right up against a wall?

Yes. Small shop, workbench is in a corner, therefore against *two*
walls. The "open end" has the junction box attached to the upper
portion of the back leg. The space between the workbench and the other
side wall is filled with a free standing metal cabinet.

If that's the case, then armored cable is definitely OK, and if you can
persuade your local inspector that the location is not "subject to physical
damage" then exposed NM, MC, or individual conductors in any type of flexible
conduit will be too.



Things would have to go horribly wrong in the shop for the run from
the ceiling junction box to the workbench junction box to be damaged.
And I mean just about total devastation.

All in all, I've always felt the installation was as you noted: "It's
mostly safe. But it definitely does not comply with Code".

The use of Type SJ (or similar) cable to a receptacle would be a
simple fix - other than the fact that I need to empty and move the
cabinet to gain access to the area. There's no telling what's lurking
in the bowels of that cabinet. ;-)


*That* may be a Code violation (junction boxes are required to be accessible).

What the code definition of "accessible"? Can it be behind a free
standing cabinet? Or a dryer? Or a couch?

Does it have to be in plain sight so you can walk right up and touch
it?

Remember the purpose of the code--it's not to pass judgment on your
furniture arrangement, it's to make sure that the building is safely
wired. If it met code when it was newly constructed, it still meets
code after you've moved in no matter where you put the furniture and
appliances. In general though, it's best to make sure that the
inspector can get at anything that he needs to inspect, not because a
piece of furniture in front of it will fail code, but because if the
inspector has to wait for you to move furniture so he can get at
something he needs to see he may just say to Hell with it and reschedule
the inspection.

But, with regard to all matters code, YMMV. Codes are generally a
matter of local law and they can be very bizarre.

On Jun 2, 5:18*pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article , DerbyDad03 wrote:

On Jun 2, 1:58=A0pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
[...]
Okay, that changes things a bit. I had pictured a free-standing bench. Not so?
Your bench is right up against a wall?

Yes. Small shop, workbench is in a corner, therefore against *two*
walls. The "open end" has the junction box attached to the upper
portion of the back leg. The space between the workbench and the other
side wall is filled with a free standing metal cabinet.

Heck, in that case, you probably meet code with the existing cable if you just
secure the bench to the wall(s) and/or the floor -- anything that makes the
bench actually attached to the structure of the building.
[...]



What the code definition of "accessible"?

"Capable of being removed or exposed without damaging the building structure
or finish or not permanently closed in by the structure or finish of the
building." [2008 NEC, Article 100]

Can it be behind a free standing cabinet?

Not if the cabinet is permanently installed. OK if the cabinet can be moved
out of the way without damaging anything.

Or a dryer? Or a couch?

Yes to both.



Does it have to be in plain sight so you can walk right up and touch
it?

No. The master bath in my house has a junction box concealed behind a large
mirror -- but the mirror is in a channel that permits sliding it aside. That
box is "accessible".

The Code has another term, "readily accessible", which is much more
restrictive. The gist of it is that if in order to get to something you have
to move anything out of the way, or fetch a ladder or a stool, then it isn't
"readily accessible". Breaker panels, fuse boxes, service disconnects, etc.
are required to be "readily accessible". Junction boxes need only be
"accessible".

I'll slap some Velcro on the back of the workbench and call it
attached. :-)

Thanks for the info.

In article , "Bill"
wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
In article , "Bill"
wrote:
My understanding of the NEC is that one cannot have a duplex outlet within
30 inches to the left of right of a main panel or subpanel.
This is correct, is it not?

I'm not aware of any such requirement. Ask whoever told you that to show
you where the Code says that.

Doug,
I recall reading (from some authoritative source) that, according to the
NEC, the space above and below a main panel is to be free and so is the
space 30" in front of it.

Not quite: the requirement was for a working space minimum 30" *wide* in front
of the panel. It's 36" now.

I'm still searching for that source now.

See Article 110.26 of the 2008 NEC.

I have been wondering how close to the sides of a subpanel I can locate a
120v duplex outlet. From looking other remarks in the NEC, it does not appear to
be as concerned about the sides, as it doesn't expect a panel to be serviced
from the sides. Does this sound famililar to you?

Yep. The Code also specifies -- I think in the same article -- that you must
be able to open the cover of the service panel a minimum of 90 degrees. Hard
to see how a duplex outlet would interfere with that, no matter how close it
is to the panel.

I'll keep looking for
the original source of my concern. I appreciate your posts.

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
In article , "Bill"

wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
In article , "Bill"
wrote:
My understanding of the NEC is that one cannot have a duplex outlet
within
30 inches to the left of right of a main panel or subpanel.
This is correct, is it not?

I'm not aware of any such requirement. Ask whoever told you that to show
you where the Code says that.

Doug,
I recall reading (from some authoritative source) that, according to the
NEC, the space above and below a main panel is to be free and so is the
space 30" in front of it.

Not quite: the requirement was for a working space minimum 30" *wide* in
front
of the panel. It's 36" now.

Doug,

This is the statement I was able to find:

"The main service equipment panel shall be mounted either outside or inside
the dwelling at the point of entrance of the service conductors to the
building. All service equipment and electrical panels shall have a clear
area 30" wide and 36" deep in front. This clear area must extend from floor
to ceiling with no intrusions from other equipment, cabinets, counters,
appliances, pipes, etc. Panels are NOT allowed in clothes closets or
bathrooms."

Does this prevent me from installing my subpanel right next to the main
panel (in between the adjacent pair of studs)? I was under the impression
it was permissable to do this but am having trouble resolving it with the
statement above.

Also, doesn't the statement above say something about how close one may
place a duplex outlet?

Thanks!
Bill

In article , "Bill" wrote:


Doug,

This is the statement I was able to find:

Where?

"The main service equipment panel shall be mounted either outside or inside
the dwelling at the point of entrance of the service conductors to the
building. All service equipment and electrical panels shall have a clear
area 30" wide and 36" deep in front. This clear area must extend from floor
to ceiling with no intrusions from other equipment, cabinets, counters,
appliances, pipes, etc. Panels are NOT allowed in clothes closets or
bathrooms."

Right. The purpose of this language is to ensure that there is adequate space
in front of the panel for an electrician to stand while servicing the
equipment. Basically, it means that you can't park crap on the floor in front
of your electrical panel.

Does this prevent me from installing my subpanel right next to the main
panel (in between the adjacent pair of studs)?

No.

I was under the impression
it was permissable to do this but am having trouble resolving it with the
statement above.

Why? A subpanel beside the main doesn't intrude into the working space at all.

Also, doesn't the statement above say something about how close one may
place a duplex outlet?

Nope.

On Jun 3, 7:00*am, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article , "Bill" wrote:

Doug,

This is the statement I was able to find:

Where?



"The main service equipment panel shall be mounted either outside or inside
the dwelling at the point of entrance of the service conductors to the
building. All service equipment and electrical panels shall have a clear
area 30" wide and 36" deep in front. This clear area must extend from floor
to ceiling with no intrusions from other equipment, cabinets, counters,
appliances, pipes, etc. Panels are NOT allowed in clothes closets or
bathrooms."

Right. The purpose of this language is to ensure that there is adequate space
in front of the panel for an electrician to stand while servicing the
equipment. Basically, it means that you can't park crap on the floor in front
of your electrical panel.



Does this prevent me from installing my subpanel right next to the main
panel (in between the adjacent pair of studs)? *

No.

I was under the impression
it was permissable to do this but am having trouble resolving it with the
statement above.

Why? A subpanel beside the main doesn't intrude into the working space at all.



Also, doesn't the statement above say something about how close one may
place a duplex outlet?

Nope.

2 wording questions:

"The main service equipment panel shall be mounted either outside or
inside the dwelling at the point of entrance of the service conductors
to the building."

If the service panel is mounted outside the dwelling, then the service
conductors never *enter* the building, do they?

Assuming, of course, that the dwelling and the building are the same
entity.

"Panels are NOT allowed in clothes closets..."

Who defines what a clothes closet is? Assuming the 30" x 36" clearance
is maintained, would panel in a 40" x 50" enclosed space be OK as long
as I didn't hang a shirt in the space?

In article , DerbyDad03 wrote:

2 wording questions:

"The main service equipment panel shall be mounted either outside or
inside the dwelling at the point of entrance of the service conductors
to the building."

If the service panel is mounted outside the dwelling, then the service
conductors never *enter* the building, do they?

Correct. Only branch circuit conductors would enter the building.

Assuming, of course, that the dwelling and the building are the same
entity.

"Panels are NOT allowed in clothes closets..."

Who defines what a clothes closet is?

The National Electrical Code.

"Clothes Closet. A non-habitable room or space intended primarily for storage
of garments and apparel." [2008 NEC, Article 100, Definitions]

The Code also prohibits putting panels in bathrooms. And yes, Article 100 also
defines what a bathroom is: "An area including a basin with one or more of the
folllowing: a toilet, a tub, or a shower."

I can hear the next question already: if there's a toilet but no sink, is it a
bathroom? No, not according to the NEC, but it's probably a violation of
plumbing and/or health codes for a room to have a toilet but no place to wash
one's hands after using it.

Assuming the 30" x 36" clearance
is maintained, would panel in a 40" x 50" enclosed space be OK as long
as I didn't hang a shirt in the space?

Depends on what that enclosed space is "intended primarily for". If it houses
your furnace and water heater, it doesn't matter if you do hang a shirt there,
it's obviously not "intended primarily for storage of garments and apparel."
OTOH, if there's a couple of closet rods there and a shoe rack on the back of
the door, it doesn't matter if you *don't* hang anything there, the space
obviously *is* intended for that purpose even if it isn't presently being used
that way.

On Jun 3, 9:43*am, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Jun 3, 7:00*am, (Doug Miller) wrote:



In article , "Bill" wrote:

Doug,

This is the statement I was able to find:

Where?

"The main service equipment panel shall be mounted either outside or inside
the dwelling at the point of entrance of the service conductors to the
building. All service equipment and electrical panels shall have a clear
area 30" wide and 36" deep in front. This clear area must extend from floor
to ceiling with no intrusions from other equipment, cabinets, counters,
appliances, pipes, etc. Panels are NOT allowed in clothes closets or
bathrooms."

Right. The purpose of this language is to ensure that there is adequate space
in front of the panel for an electrician to stand while servicing the
equipment. Basically, it means that you can't park crap on the floor in front
of your electrical panel.

Does this prevent me from installing my subpanel right next to the main
panel (in between the adjacent pair of studs)? *

No.

I was under the impression
it was permissable to do this but am having trouble resolving it with the
statement above.

Why? A subpanel beside the main doesn't intrude into the working space at all.

Also, doesn't the statement above say something about how close one may
place a duplex outlet?

Nope.

2 wording questions:

"The main service equipment panel shall be mounted either outside or
inside the dwelling at the point of entrance of the service conductors
to the building."

Interesting. My main breaker panel is in the attic (unfinished space
over the garage) at pretty much the opposite end of the house as the
service entrance.

If the service panel is mounted outside the dwelling, then the service
conductors never *enter* the building, do they?

Assuming, of course, that the dwelling and the building are the same
entity.

"Panels are NOT allowed in clothes closets..."

Who defines what a clothes closet is? Assuming the 30" x 36" clearance
is maintained, would panel in a 40" x 50" enclosed space be OK as long
as I didn't hang a shirt in the space?

On Jun 3, 12:25*pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article , DerbyDad03 wrote:

2 wording questions:

"The main service equipment panel shall be mounted either outside or
inside the dwelling at the point of entrance of the service conductors
to the building."

If the service panel is mounted outside the dwelling, then the service
conductors never *enter* the building, do they?

Correct. Only branch circuit conductors would enter the building.



Assuming, of course, that the dwelling and the building are the same
entity.

"Panels are NOT allowed in clothes closets..."

Who defines what a clothes closet is?

The National Electrical Code.

"Clothes Closet. A non-habitable room or space intended primarily for storage
of garments and apparel." [2008 NEC, Article 100, Definitions]

The Code also prohibits putting panels in bathrooms. And yes, Article 100 also
defines what a bathroom is: "An area including a basin with one or more of the
folllowing: a toilet, a tub, or a shower."

I can hear the next question already: if there's a toilet but no sink, is it a
bathroom? No, not according to the NEC, but it's probably a violation of
plumbing and/or health codes for a room to have a toilet but no place to wash
one's hands after using it.

Assuming the 30" x 36" clearance
is maintained, would panel in a 40" x 50" enclosed space be OK as long
as I didn't hang a shirt in the space?

Depends on what that enclosed space is "intended primarily for". If it houses
your furnace and water heater, it doesn't matter if you do hang a shirt there,
it's obviously not "intended primarily for storage of garments and apparel."
OTOH, if there's a couple of closet rods there and a shoe rack on the back of
the door, it doesn't matter if you *don't* hang anything there, the space
obviously *is* intended for that purpose even if it isn't presently being used
that way.

"if there's a toilet but no sink, is it a bathroom?"

It is according to my town.

When I moved in the house had a basement room with a toilet and a
shower.

We were assessed as having 1.5 baths 'cuz my town considers any room
with 1 or 2 fixtures to be a half-bath, 3 or more to be full. A
shower, toilet, and bidet would be a full bath even though there is no
sink.

When I redid the "half-bath" I added a tiny sink, barely big enough to
wash your hands in, and suddenly I had a 2 bath house.

BTW The original shower didn't even have a pan. The slab sloped down
towards the corner with a hole into which a kitchen sink strainer was
placed. There was no physical connection between the cast iron drain
pipe under the slab and the slab itself. It was support by the earth
and the other pipes that were connected to it.

On 6/3/2010 9:43 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:


Who defines what a clothes closet is? Assuming the 30" x 36" clearance
is maintained, would panel in a 40" x 50" enclosed space be OK as long
as I didn't hang a shirt in the space?

A common builder's ploy is to designate a space, that could conceivably
be used as a closet by an owner in the future, as a "machine room" on
any architectural drawings.

It's not like an inspector is going to make a surprise visit, or even
care after a final inspection is passed, to see what a homeowner
ultimately does with the space in his house.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

In article , " wrote:
On Jun 3, 9:43=A0am, DerbyDad03 wrote:

"The main service equipment panel shall be mounted either outside or
inside the dwelling at the point of entrance of the service conductors
to the building."

Interesting. My main breaker panel is in the attic (unfinished space
over the garage) at pretty much the opposite end of the house as the
service entrance.

Code has not always required it to be at the point of entrance. It may very
well have met Code when it was installed. Seems to me that change came about
in the mid-late 1980s, but I could be wrong.

Swingman writes:
On 6/3/2010 9:43 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:


Who defines what a clothes closet is? Assuming the 30" x 36" clearance
is maintained, would panel in a 40" x 50" enclosed space be OK as long
as I didn't hang a shirt in the space?

A common builder's ploy is to designate a space, that could conceivably
be used as a closet by an owner in the future, as a "machine room" on
any architectural drawings.

It's not like an inspector is going to make a surprise visit, or even
care after a final inspection is passed, to see what a homeowner
ultimately does with the space in his house.

Although there are pretty good reasons why one should not place a breaker
panel (or fuse box) in a closet. I've seen many houses from the 50's and
60's with breaker panels in closets; but the code changed because of
the obvious fire hazard.

scott

On 6/3/2010 12:19 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
"wrote:

Interesting. My main breaker panel is in the attic (unfinished space
over the garage) at pretty much the opposite end of the house as the
service entrance.

Code has not always required it to be at the point of entrance. It may very
well have met Code when it was installed. Seems to me that change came about
in the mid-late 1980s, but I could be wrong.

I think the phrase "as near as possible" purposely leaves a lot of
latitude in most local code adoptions and the ultimate implementation of
this requirement.

I built a house recently where the "service entrance" was on a separate
garage and the main service panel was on the utility room wall on the
second floor of the main house.

Reason was that the service had to be brought in overhead since it
crossed an easement and couldn't be buried, and the clearance between
the service lines and a window on the second floor of the garage was
insufficient to do an overhead to the main house or it would have to
cross adjacent property.

IME, the overriding concern of most municipalities is easy access to a
main cutoff at the service entrance, after that "as near as possible"
could be across the street.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On 6/3/2010 12:24 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
writes:
On 6/3/2010 9:43 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:


Who defines what a clothes closet is? Assuming the 30" x 36" clearance
is maintained, would panel in a 40" x 50" enclosed space be OK as long
as I didn't hang a shirt in the space?

A common builder's ploy is to designate a space, that could conceivably
be used as a closet by an owner in the future, as a "machine room" on
any architectural drawings.

It's not like an inspector is going to make a surprise visit, or even
care after a final inspection is passed, to see what a homeowner
ultimately does with the space in his house.

Although there are pretty good reasons why one should not place a breaker
panel (or fuse box) in a closet. I've seen many houses from the 50's and
60's with breaker panels in closets; but the code changed because of
the obvious fire hazard.

Not advocating the practice by any means ... simply pointing out the
everyday realities of the situation.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On 6/3/10 12:24 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
Although there are pretty good reasons why one should not place a breaker
panel (or fuse box) in a closet. I've seen many houses from the 50's and
60's with breaker panels in closets; but the code changed because of
the obvious fire hazard.

scott

Ok, I'm an idiot. It's so obvious, I'm oblivious. :-)

What's make a closet more of a fire hazard for a breaker box?


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 6/03/10 1:46 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 6/3/10 12:24 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
Although there are pretty good reasons why one should not place a breaker
panel (or fuse box) in a closet. I've seen many houses from the 50's and
60's with breaker panels in closets; but the code changed because of
the obvious fire hazard.

scott

Ok, I'm an idiot. It's so obvious, I'm oblivious. :-)

What's make a closet more of a fire hazard for a breaker box?

Probably not so much for a properly functioning, properly installed box.

However, older boxes, too many handymen doing what they shouldn't etc.,
then I can start to see potential issues.

--
Froz...


The system will be down for 10 days for preventive maintenance.

On 6/3/2010 12:46 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 6/3/10 12:24 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
Although there are pretty good reasons why one should not place a breaker
panel (or fuse box) in a closet. I've seen many houses from the 50's and
60's with breaker panels in closets; but the code changed because of
the obvious fire hazard.

scott

Ok, I'm an idiot. It's so obvious, I'm oblivious. :-)

What's make a closet more of a fire hazard for a breaker box?

Don't recall the exact article but somewhere in the NEC for a number of
years has been a phrase stating that overcurrent protection devices
should not be located in the vicinity of easily flammable material ...
or words to that effect.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Jun 3, 12:19*pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article , " wrote:

On Jun 3, 9:43=A0am, DerbyDad03 wrote:
"The main service equipment panel shall be mounted either outside or
inside the dwelling at the point of entrance of the service conductors
to the building."

Interesting. *My main breaker panel is in the attic (unfinished space
over the garage) at pretty much the opposite end of the house as the
service entrance.

Code has not always required it to be at the point of entrance. It may very
well have met Code when it was installed. Seems to me that change came about
in the mid-late 1980s, but I could be wrong.

The house was built in 2007. My previous house had the entrance panel
outside, on the front porch, which was on the opposite side of the
garage from the service entrance. That house was built in '86.

On 6/3/10 12:50 PM, FrozenNorth wrote:
On 6/03/10 1:46 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 6/3/10 12:24 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
Although there are pretty good reasons why one should not place a
breaker
panel (or fuse box) in a closet. I've seen many houses from the 50's and
60's with breaker panels in closets; but the code changed because of
the obvious fire hazard.

scott

Ok, I'm an idiot. It's so obvious, I'm oblivious. :-)

What's make a closet more of a fire hazard for a breaker box?

Probably not so much for a properly functioning, properly installed box.

However, older boxes, too many handymen doing what they shouldn't etc.,
then I can start to see potential issues.


Not exclusive to closets, however. :-)


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 6/03/10 2:19 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 6/3/10 12:50 PM, FrozenNorth wrote:
On 6/03/10 1:46 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 6/3/10 12:24 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
Although there are pretty good reasons why one should not place a
breaker
panel (or fuse box) in a closet. I've seen many houses from the 50's
and
60's with breaker panels in closets; but the code changed because of
the obvious fire hazard.

scott

Ok, I'm an idiot. It's so obvious, I'm oblivious. :-)

What's make a closet more of a fire hazard for a breaker box?

Probably not so much for a properly functioning, properly installed box.

However, older boxes, too many handymen doing what they shouldn't etc.,
then I can start to see potential issues.


Not exclusive to closets, however. :-)

Absolutely, but closets are an easy thing to get in the NEC to avoid or
at least partially eliminate the possibility of some flammable materials
in the area.

--
Froz...


The system will be down for 10 days for preventive maintenance.

On Jun 3, 1:13*pm, Swingman wrote:
On 6/3/2010 9:43 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

Who defines what a clothes closet is? Assuming the 30" x 36" clearance
is maintained, would panel in a 40" x 50" enclosed space be OK as long
as I didn't hang a shirt in the space?

A common builder's ploy is to designate a space, that could conceivably
be used as a closet by an owner in the future, as a "machine room" on
any architectural drawings.

It's not like an inspector is going to make a surprise visit, or even
care after a final inspection is passed, to see what a homeowner
ultimately does with the space in his house.

--www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

My buddy built a Post & Beam house a few years ago. He put in a sunken
dining room, a few steps lower than the kitchen.

Going around the room, counter clockwise, one "wall" was the back of
the cabinets under the kitchen counter, the next wall was a finished
exterior wall, the next was floor to ceiling windows, and the last
wall...well, there wasn't a last wall, it was open to the living room.
A beautiful fan & light hung from the ceiling.

He had put receptacles in the "kitchen" wall and the finished exterior
wall, but hadn't gotten around to boreing out the beam under the
windows for any receptacles on that wall. His construction loan was
running out and he had to get an electrical inspection before he could
transition to a regular mortgage.

So he's standing in the kitchen with the inspector, blueprints on the
counter, looking down over the dining room. The inspector says "That's
the dining room. You need receptacles every six feet. There are no
receptacles under the windows. What's up?" My buddy says, in all
seriousness, "Oh, we changed the layout. That's a closet."

The inspector says "Well, you don't need receptacles every six feet in
a closet. You're all set."

Swingman writes:
On 6/3/2010 12:46 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 6/3/10 12:24 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
Although there are pretty good reasons why one should not place a breaker
panel (or fuse box) in a closet. I've seen many houses from the 50's and
60's with breaker panels in closets; but the code changed because of
the obvious fire hazard.

scott

Ok, I'm an idiot. It's so obvious, I'm oblivious. :-)

What's make a closet more of a fire hazard for a breaker box?

Don't recall the exact article but somewhere in the NEC for a number of
years has been a phrase stating that overcurrent protection devices
should not be located in the vicinity of easily flammable material ...
or words to that effect.

Yes, particularly with older-style coverless breaker boxes[*]. An
overcurrent condition may cause sparking, which with clothing'**] nearby;
fire.
[*] The push type with the on/off window, in particular; I forget the manufacturer.

[**] I suppose if all you wear is wool, then the fire hazard is less,
since it is quite difficult to set wool afire. Fleece, on the other hand,
"whoosh".

I did the following to mine:

(1) Double the number of 120 outlets
(2) use quad outlet boxes at 120 locations (dahikt)
(3) Put ALL electrical in conduit on outside of walls.


The reason for the external wiring is that every shop
tends to get moved around from time to time and you
can move stuff MUCH easier with it in conduit.




Bill wrote:
Prompted by suggestions that a shop needs convenient power, I created a
(pdf) SU view of my proposed outlet configuration (for one wall), and also a
corresponding wiring model:

http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/

On 6/3/2010 1:30 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

The inspector says "Well, you don't need receptacles every six feet in
a closet. You're all set."

Common sense quite often dictates what passes and what doesn't ... a
recessed light in an 8' ceiling above a shower will fail in most
locales, on a 9' ceiling above a shower and it will pass, but be
prepared to prove it to each and every inspector.

Then again you can get away with a lot when an inspector can't read a
set of plans, particularly an electrical plan ... almost always have to
correct some inspectors when it comes to "dead" three way switches,
particularly when they operate lights on different floors ... like with
balcony and porch lights.

One of my favorites is municipalities that dictate where HVAC returns
can be. Some Z&P boards don't want old folks standing on chairs to
change an AC filter, so specify they can be a maximum of 48" above a
floor or landing. Others are perfectly happy if you put it on a 10'
ceiling ... although the owners may then finally appreciate just how
farking stupid your architect is.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)