"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote: Ya' know, Roger-------if God was looking
out for you, you'd have avoided the
crash.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
You seem to have missed an important part of Roger's reasoning: God knew he
needed some money. What better way to provide it than send an innocent deer
into his path? Everything happens for a reason. ;-)

"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message
. net...

"RogerN" wrote in message
m...

Ya' know, Roger-------if God was looking out for you, you'd have avoided
the crash.

Harold


God doesn't seem to look out for people like that. Instead of delivering
people out of a bad situation, he sees them through it. Like the book says,
all things work together for good for those who love the Lord.

RogerN

RogerN wrote:
"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message
. net...
"RogerN" wrote in message
m...

Ya' know, Roger-------if God was looking out for you, you'd have avoided
the crash.

Harold


God doesn't seem to look out for people like that. Instead of delivering
people out of a bad situation, he sees them through it. Like the book says,
all things work together for good for those who love the Lord.

RogerN

Thereby producing an effect indistinguishable from the effect of his
non-existence.

David

"David R.Birch" wrote: Thereby producing an effect indistinguishable from
the effect of his
non-existence.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Amen!

On Fri, 21 Nov 2008 01:46:04 -0600, "RogerN"
wrote:


"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message
.net...

"RogerN" wrote in message
m...

Ya' know, Roger-------if God was looking out for you, you'd have avoided
the crash.

Harold


God doesn't seem to look out for people like that. Instead of delivering
people out of a bad situation, he sees them through it. Like the book says,
all things work together for good for those who love the Lord.

RogerN



Harold, you are, essentially, trying to teach a pig to dance.

I couldn't resist chiming in, though, because this is such a perfect
example of some 60 year old research (Superstition in the Pigeon) by
the psychologist, B. F. Skinner.
http://psychclassics.yorku.ca/Skinner/Pigeon/

"Prayer is used by theists to achieve something they desire. When it
‘works’ they think their god caused it and believe similar prayers
will work again. When prayer doesn't work, they think they’re not
worthy of the answer. So they either conform the prayer to ones that
have worked or try a new one. "
http://groups.google.com/group/Athei...913c3879f291e6

Many of the "faithful" realize this flawed logic, though, and (giving
credit to the Theory of Cognitive Dissonance) that is why, in the very
real face of disconfirming evidence, there are libraries full of
Christian apologetics ramblings. The inevitable conclusion of any of
these ensuing, uh, discussions, is that any conclusion drawn counter
to the apologists' belief structure will surely be met with the
ultimate defense (God said IT, I believe IT, and that's THAT.)

Hop out of the mud, shower off, and move on to dialog with somebody
that doesn't define their existence as a brick in an immovable wall...
--

Forté Agent 5.00 Build 1160

Homepage
http://pamandgene.tranquilrefuge.net...shop/index.htm

"David R.Birch" wrote in message
...

Thereby producing an effect indistinguishable from the effect of his
non-existence.

David

It is indistinguishable up to the point of "all things working together for
good", that is the point that is distinguishable.

Ok, what if God delivered all who believe in him from all hardships,
sicknesses, etc.? Then statistics would show that Christians never get
sick, never get in wrecks, and never have any kind of physical or financial
hardships. People would become Christians just because God "paid" them, not
because they loved the Lord. This is how God separates the wheat from the
chaff. God needs you for fire wood to keep his people warm :-)

RogerN

Gene, I'm well aware of your type of thinking and your type of logic but
that has already been proven invalid by my experience. I have found that
when I meet God's conditions he is faithful 100% of the time. I can't
verify anyone else's claims but I know in my own experiences I have prayed
for things and received answers that would be impossible to explain by any
natural causes. I know there are many that fall under your B. F. Skinner
category but there are also many that don't.
Some claim to be Christians as a fire insurance, in case it would happen to
be true, they don't want to be thrown in the fire. These are the ones that
fit in B. F. Skinners philosophy. There are also Christians that are life
and death serious with God. Their religion isn't just a Sunday morning feel
good comfort thing. Such people experience supernatural miracles from God
on an almost daily basis.
There's a guy on Youtube and other video's that I don't know if he's the
real deal or not but he prays for people and they appear to be healed and he
prays for pregnant women and they have their babies right on camera within
seconds. Can a person fake the birth of a baby?

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/yt-RpO.../instant_baby/

Leg Cancer
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpajHwwuzig

Like I said, I don't know if these are genuine or not but I do know people
that have had similar healings, at least enough to know the real exists.

RogerN


"Gene" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 21 Nov 2008 01:46:04 -0600, "RogerN"
wrote:


"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message
s.net...

"RogerN" wrote in message
m...

Ya' know, Roger-------if God was looking out for you, you'd have avoided
the crash.

Harold


God doesn't seem to look out for people like that. Instead of delivering
people out of a bad situation, he sees them through it. Like the book
says,
all things work together for good for those who love the Lord.

RogerN



Harold, you are, essentially, trying to teach a pig to dance.

I couldn't resist chiming in, though, because this is such a perfect
example of some 60 year old research (Superstition in the Pigeon) by
the psychologist, B. F. Skinner.
http://psychclassics.yorku.ca/Skinner/Pigeon/

"Prayer is used by theists to achieve something they desire. When it
'works' they think their god caused it and believe similar prayers
will work again. When prayer doesn't work, they think they're not
worthy of the answer. So they either conform the prayer to ones that
have worked or try a new one. "
http://groups.google.com/group/Athei...913c3879f291e6

Many of the "faithful" realize this flawed logic, though, and (giving
credit to the Theory of Cognitive Dissonance) that is why, in the very
real face of disconfirming evidence, there are libraries full of
Christian apologetics ramblings. The inevitable conclusion of any of
these ensuing, uh, discussions, is that any conclusion drawn counter
to the apologists' belief structure will surely be met with the
ultimate defense (God said IT, I believe IT, and that's THAT.)

Hop out of the mud, shower off, and move on to dialog with somebody
that doesn't define their existence as a brick in an immovable wall...
--

Forté Agent 5.00 Build 1160

Homepage
http://pamandgene.tranquilrefuge.net...shop/index.htm

"RogerN" wrote in message
m...
snip----

Can a person fake the birth of a baby?

*sigh!*
I'm sure that it couldn't possibly have been pre-arranged, could it?

Nah! Not a chance! shrug

Like I said, I don't know if these are genuine or not but I do know people
that have had similar healings, at least enough to know the real exists.

Nope----you don't "know" any such thing. You choose to BELIEVE them, but you
have no proof that they are not faked. Believing a lie doesn't make it
true-----and if these things were true, they'd make front page news.
Follow the money, Roger. Follow the money. You are a sucker for the BS
relgion spews.

"Gene" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 21 Nov 2008 01:46:04 -0600, "RogerN"
wrote:
snip----

Harold, you are, essentially, trying to teach a pig to dance.

Actually, Gene, I'm trying to teach it to sing. That doesn't seem to work,
either! :-)

Harold

"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message
. net...

"RogerN" wrote in message
m...
snip----

Can a person fake the birth of a baby?

*sigh!*
I'm sure that it couldn't possibly have been pre-arranged, could it?

Nah! Not a chance! shrug

Like I said, I don't know if these are genuine or not but I do know
people that have had similar healings, at least enough to know the real
exists.

Nope----you don't "know" any such thing. You choose to BELIEVE them, but
you have no proof that they are not faked.

Really? My wife's healings were fake? The doctors and lab tests were
wrong? Are you sure? Did you examine the problem with her wisdom teeth,
her gall bladder, and her hepatitis? I saw the symptoms before prayer and
new the trouble she had sleeping and the vomiting sure looked real. For the
life of me I can't remember you being there. When her wisdom teeth were
causing her great discomfort and it looked as if she was going to need oral
surgery, then she was prayed for, no more discomfort, no more problem, no
exchange of money. And then when she had the gall bladder pains and was
going have an operation, she was prayed for and all her symptoms instantly
went away, no operation necessary. Boy, she sure had me fooled with all
those sleepless nights and acting like she had pain. But I guess you knew
the situation better than me, although I don't recall you being there. She
had Hepatitis before when she was young and there was the time it looked
like it was back, she had all the symptoms, the Doctors office thought she
had it (were they in on it too?) then she called our pastor, they prayed,
and from that moment the symptons were gone never to return. I can't prove
that you didn't become invisible and wasn't there but I didn't detect you.

I'm wondering what the reasoning for my wife, the doctors, and everyone else
to fool me was? I never had much money didn't give that much. Boy they
sure went to a lot of trouble to fool me. They didn't profit from it
though, at the time I was only making $6-$7/hr and it was near impossible to
make ends meet, but somehow we did it.

I guess you're right, I can't prove that my wife wasn't up all night faking
being sick and making herself throw up. I can't prove the Doctors didn't
falsify just because they wanted me to believe in God's healing, I didn't
even tell them I went to church or the church believed in praying for the
sick. So, let me get this straight, my wife faked the sickness, went to the
doctor and talked him into faking his diagnosis, they pretended to plan
surgery, she got prayed for and pretended to be healed, is that how it was?
What was the purpose of this? If my wife, the Doctors, and the Church
fooled me, what was their motivation? Like I said, my income wasn't very
good, no body got much money from me. Were all the others being healed also
just doing it to fool their spouses?

And the two times I prayed and asked God how to find the place I was looking
for, and got the vision of the exact road to turn on, and went straight
there. There's been other times I've asked but not gotten an answer, but
there has never been a time I thought I had a vision and it been wrong. Did
I fake that? Was I in on it? Will I let myself know how I did it somethime
in the future?

You believe God doesn't heal, but like you said "Believing a lie doesn't
make it true". Maybe I can't prove it but then again I can't prove I'm
typing this response and I can't prove that you wrote the message that I'm
responding to. I can't prove my house isn't made out of cheese sandwitches
that have been magically transformed into lumber.


Believing a lie doesn't make it true-----and if these things were true,
they'd make front page news. Follow the money, Roger. Follow the money.
You are a sucker for the BS relgion spews.

"Gene" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 21 Nov 2008 01:46:04 -0600, "RogerN"
wrote:
snip----

Harold, you are, essentially, trying to teach a pig to dance.

Actually, Gene, I'm trying to teach it to sing. That doesn't seem to
work, either! :-)

Harold

I thought you were wanting to learn CNC milling, not singing :-)

I wouldn't trust Haas Harold, they are just in it for the money, follow the
money. Your better off buying a machine made by a company that's no longer
in business, they didn't make the money and therefore are more trustworthy.

RogerN

RogerN wrote:

Really? My wife's healings were fake? The doctors and lab tests were
wrong? Are you sure? Did you examine the problem with her wisdom
teeth, her gall bladder, and her hepatitis? I saw the symptoms
before prayer and new the trouble she had sleeping and the vomiting
sure looked real. For the life of me I can't remember you being
there. snip lots more of the same

Roger, sarcasm is the lowest form of wit, and is not a very persuasive form
of argument.

I don't think anyone is disputing the discomfort experienced by you and/or
your family. Nor is anyone disputing the cure, or resolution of the
problems.

As I see it, the only dispute is the *agency* of the relief.

You claim that God heard your prayers, then altered the plan that he had
devised at creation for the universe throughout eternity, sufficiently to
relieve your pains. This was as a direct and specific response to your
supplication. Presumably, if you had not made the petition to God, then the
pain would have not abated.

Is that a fair summary of your position?

Now, most non-theistic types will (presumably) rely on agencies such as
medicine, dentistry, pharmaceuticals and the well-documented ability of the
body to heal itself without external intervention.

It seems that they experience relief at the same rate as those who use
prayer.

Either god is favouring the non-believers with the same deliberation with
which he favours the faithful (the supplicants),

....or...

maybe the whole "god" thing doesn't enter into the argument at all.

All (well -*most*) of us have witnessed remissions and cures and reliefs
that have been visited upon non-believers. If they happen to *you*, Roger,
then they are miracles! Gifts from God. If they happen to a non-believer,
then they are... what? Just the natural progression of the functioning of
the human body?

Roger, you don't need to invent a "god" to explain things. Not anymore.

Sometimes, when I'm facing stainless steel, the tool chatters and I'm left
with a "stippled" finish. On other occasions, with very similar setups,
there is no chatter and the finish is mirror-smooth.

Should I praise the Lord for the fine finish, and pray for more of the same,
or should I seek to find the source of the chatter?

I suspect my colleagues might call the men in white if they observe me
praying for a mirror finish before I turn on the lathe.

....yet, no-one sees anything eccentric if I am observed praying for my
wife's speedy recovery. "How sweet.." they intone... "He really cares for
her."

(Well yes, I care enough to pay for the best professional medical care, and
then I support her *myself* in her recovery.)

The "god" is not in the machine, Roger. Nor in your wife. Sub-vocalising a
plea to a mythical man-made omnipotent being is not going to alter the
natural progression of biology. I can match *every* one of your "miracles"
with a non-miraculous event of similar import.

But keep praying if it makes you feel better.
(That's all it does.)

--
Jeff R.

"Jeff R." wrote in message
u...
snip-----

But keep praying if it makes you feel better.
(That's all it does.)

--
Jeff R.

I can't add anything to Jeff's comments. He reads you like a cheap novel.

I've been through these issues all my life. Bible thumpers "know" the
reason they get relief. The rest of us do, too. It's called ****
happens.

Roger, considering the degree of your success, you're missing a golden
opportunity to become a faith healer. It's entirely possible you'll
become the next Benny Hinn, someone I'm sure you admire.

Harold

"Jeff R." wrote in message
u...
RogerN wrote:

Really? My wife's healings were fake? The doctors and lab tests were
wrong? Are you sure? Did you examine the problem with her wisdom
teeth, her gall bladder, and her hepatitis? I saw the symptoms
before prayer and new the trouble she had sleeping and the vomiting
sure looked real. For the life of me I can't remember you being
there. snip lots more of the same

Roger, sarcasm is the lowest form of wit, and is not a very persuasive
form of argument.

Harold was the one seeming to know more about my experiences than I do. And
now you too. I've seen a lot of natural healing, remission, etc, I know the
difference.


I don't think anyone is disputing the discomfort experienced by you and/or
your family. Nor is anyone disputing the cure, or resolution of the
problems.

As I see it, the only dispute is the *agency* of the relief.

You claim that God heard your prayers, then altered the plan that he had
devised at creation for the universe throughout eternity, sufficiently to
relieve your pains. This was as a direct and specific response to your
supplication. Presumably, if you had not made the petition to God, then
the pain would have not abated.

You already show your complete lack of understanding of God and his plan.
God revealed his plan of salvation all over and in many different ways in
the Old Testament and show the fullfillment of it in the New Testament.

Is that a fair summary of your position?

Now, most non-theistic types will (presumably) rely on agencies such as
medicine, dentistry, pharmaceuticals and the well-documented ability of
the body to heal itself without external intervention.

Yes, I know about all of those, been using them for years.

It seems that they experience relief at the same rate as those who use
prayer.

Most prayer doesn't seem to help much in my experience. The Bible is full
of many that prayed without results and few that got Gods attention and he
answered them. If you get real serious with God then prayer will yeild
awesome results.

Either god is favouring the non-believers with the same deliberation with
which he favours the faithful (the supplicants),

Wrong yet again...

...or...

maybe the whole "god" thing doesn't enter into the argument at all.

All (well -*most*) of us have witnessed remissions and cures and reliefs
that have been visited upon non-believers. If they happen to *you*,
Roger, then they are miracles! Gifts from God. If they happen to a
non-believer, then they are... what? Just the natural progression of the
functioning of the human body?

Wrong again, I've had all kinds of natural healings my whole life that I
don't considers miracles. Why do you respond when you don't know what
you're talking about?

Roger, you don't need to invent a "god" to explain things. Not anymore.

Great, explain how someone has problems with wisdom teeth that need to be
extracted one minute and the next minute all problems with them are gone.

Sometimes, when I'm facing stainless steel, the tool chatters and I'm left
with a "stippled" finish. On other occasions, with very similar setups,
there is no chatter and the finish is mirror-smooth.

Should I praise the Lord for the fine finish, and pray for more of the
same, or should I seek to find the source of the chatter?

Did the Lord tell you to machine the stainless steel? Did he tell you what
setup, speeds, and feeds to use?

I suspect my colleagues might call the men in white if they observe me
praying for a mirror finish before I turn on the lathe.

...yet, no-one sees anything eccentric if I am observed praying for my
wife's speedy recovery. "How sweet.." they intone... "He really cares for
her."

(Well yes, I care enough to pay for the best professional medical care,
and then I support her *myself* in her recovery.)

The "god" is not in the machine, Roger. Nor in your wife. Sub-vocalising
a plea to a mythical man-made omnipotent being is not going to alter the
natural progression of biology. I can match *every* one of your
"miracles" with a non-miraculous event of similar import.

No you can't. Sure there a cases where healing takes place over time but
natural healing doesn't normally happen instantly. Perhaps you can match a
3 minute healing with a 3 day or 3 week natural healing, but that isn't
realy a match.

But keep praying if it makes you feel better.
(That's all it does.)

Yes, when God miracously heals someone it does make them feel better.

Faith is the key, faith in God. Abraham recieved his promise from God by
faith. Moses was given the law yet he never entered into the promised land.
You can't get there by obeying Gods law. Joshua led the people into the
promised land and they had to take posession of it by faith. You can have
faith in what you see, what the doctor tells you, what you feel like. Faith
in God is believing the word of God over what you see and feel.

RogerN

RogerN wrote:
"Jeff R." wrote in message
u...

Harold was the one seeming to know more about my experiences than I
do. And now you too. I've seen a lot of natural healing, remission,
etc, I know the difference.

Really?
What is the difference? The tangible difference.
Other than your perception - or opinion - of the event.

You claim that God heard your prayers, then altered the plan that he
had devised at creation for the universe throughout eternity,
sufficiently to relieve your pains. This was as a direct and
specific response to your supplication. Presumably, if you had not
made the petition to God, then the pain would have not abated.

You already show your complete lack of understanding of God and his
plan. God revealed his plan of salvation all over and in many
different ways in the Old Testament and show the fullfillment of it
in the New Testament.

What?
You're right, though. I don't understand God's plan. I don't presume to
know God's mind. Beats me how anyone can be sufficiently arrogant to claim
that they *do* know. You certainly can't know through the agency of a
document so contradictory and obviously flawed as the *bible*!

What does the "progression" from the old to the new testament have to do
with your wife's remission from illness - based upon your supplication(s)?


Is that a fair summary of your position?

Now, most non-theistic types will (presumably) rely on agencies such
as medicine, dentistry, pharmaceuticals and the well-documented
ability of the body to heal itself without external intervention.

Yes, I know about all of those, been using them for years.

Of course you have. We all have.


It seems that they experience relief at the same rate as those who
use prayer.

Most prayer doesn't seem to help much in my experience. The Bible is
full of many that prayed without results and few that got Gods
attention and he answered them. If you get real serious with God
then prayer will yeild awesome results.

Evidence?
Anything? At all? That is, proof that the happening occurred *because* of
the prayer?


Either god is favouring the non-believers with the same deliberation
with which he favours the faithful (the supplicants),

Wrong yet again...

Please elaborate.



...or...

maybe the whole "god" thing doesn't enter into the argument at all.

All (well -*most*) of us have witnessed remissions and cures and
reliefs that have been visited upon non-believers. If they happen
to *you*, Roger, then they are miracles! Gifts from God. If they
happen to a non-believer, then they are... what? Just the natural
progression of the functioning of the human body?

Wrong again, I've had all kinds of natural healings my whole life
that I don't considers miracles. Why do you respond when you don't
know what you're talking about?

You miss my point.
We have all experienced remissions exclusive of prayer. I have, you have.

How do you *know* when god is involved in the remission?

(I know... you "just know". Right?)



Roger, you don't need to invent a "god" to explain things. Not
anymore.

Great, explain how someone has problems with wisdom teeth that need
to be extracted one minute and the next minute all problems with them
are gone.

Too many variables. I am not a clinician. Who diagnosed the need for
surgical removal? I could guess though - a hysterical patient who
characteristically overstates a problem, whinges, whines, carries on -
performs so as to attract attention and sympathy, and then forgets to carry
on after a while. The pain recedes - as it does, naturally, without divine
intervention, then GLORY BE! A divine cure!

I have witnessed cures which could be discribed by your ilk as "divine" or
"miraculous". Remission from testicular cancer; reversal of unexplained
blindness... Neither of these were the results of prayer.


Sometimes, when I'm facing stainless steel, the tool chatters and
I'm left with a "stippled" finish. On other occasions, with very
similar setups, there is no chatter and the finish is mirror-smooth.

Should I praise the Lord for the fine finish, and pray for more of
the same, or should I seek to find the source of the chatter?

Did the Lord tell you to machine the stainless steel? Did he tell
you what setup, speeds, and feeds to use?

Of course not. Does that mean that I cannot pray to him for assistance? Do
I have to forsee all contingencies in life? May I only pray about things
that he has instructed me to do?
Did the Lord instruct your wife how to conduct her life in order not to
contract her illness?
Oh wait - yes, of course he did. Sorry, I forgot.

.... I can match
*every* one of your "miracles" with a non-miraculous event of
similar import.

No you can't.

Yes I can.

...Sure there a cases where healing takes place over time
but natural healing doesn't normally happen instantly. Perhaps you
can match a 3 minute healing with a 3 day or 3 week natural healing,
but that isn't realy a match.

It'll do for me - if it works.
How on earth do you define how long "healing" takes? Its a meaningless
measure for a binary state.

Tell me Roger.... do you have any documented cases (not third-hand myths) of
god healing a man with an amputated limb? Growing back a new one
instantaneously, I mean.

No?

What does god have against amputees?


But keep praying if it makes you feel better.
(That's all it does.)

Yes, when God miracously heals someone it does make them feel better.


No, that's not what I said.
If the *prayer* makes you feel better, then so be it.



Faith is the key, faith in God. Abraham recieved his promise from
God by faith. Moses was given the law yet he never entered into the
promised land. You can't get there by obeying Gods law. Joshua led
the people into the promised land and they had to take posession of
it by faith. You can have faith in what you see, what the doctor
tells you, what you feel like. Faith in God is believing the word of
God over what you see and feel.

Yes. A brave admission, Roger.
Faith in God is indeed believing in that which your reasoning and your
senses tell you is absurd.

Just don't expect anyone to respect such faith. Its no more worthy of
respect than faith in unicorns and fairies.

We just don't need it anymore.

Well - most of us.


RogerN

Cheers to you.

--
Jeff R.

"Jeff R." wrote in message
u...

The "god" is not in the machine, Roger. Nor in your wife. Sub-vocalising
a plea to a mythical man-made omnipotent being is not going to alter the
natural progression of biology. I can match *every* one of your
"miracles" with a non-miraculous event of similar import.

But keep praying if it makes you feel better.
(That's all it does.)

--
Jeff R.

Ok, I got some "miracles" for you to match. Like I told you, some take God
life and death serious. They believe and perform the following Bible
verses:

Mark Chapter 16
17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will
drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up
snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt
them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get
well."

So, since you know it's all fake and you can match anything done by God, I
found you a church to go to where you prove your case by showing that you
can also handle poisonous snakes without them harming you and you can also
drink poison with no harm. Take Harold with you, you can both prove there
is nothing to it. They think God protects them but you can match it can't
you? Oops, more sarcasm slipping out :-) Go on, are ya chicken?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUdc5h10zTo

RogerN

RogerN wrote:

Ok, I got some "miracles" for you to match. Like I told you, some
take God life and death serious. They believe and perform the
following Bible verses:

Mark Chapter 16
17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they
will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will
pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison,
it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick
people, and they will get well."


That's not a miracle. That's just a quote from a fundamentally flawed piece
of mythological writing.

I see your quote and raise you one:

insert here a quote from "Batman" or "Cinderella" [etc]


So, since you know it's all fake and you can match anything done by
God, I found you a church to go to where you prove your case by
showing that you can also handle poisonous snakes without them
harming you and you can also drink poison with no harm. Take Harold
with you, you can both prove there is nothing to it. They think God
protects them but you can match it can't you? Oops, more sarcasm
slipping out :-) Go on, are ya chicken?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUdc5h10zTo


Oh pshaw!
How do we know those snakes are deadly, anyway?

Roger, the last time I cleaned out my septic tank, I had my fingers under
the concrete disk which serves as a lid to the tank. I felt something soft
brushing against my (bare) fingers, but thought nothing of it until I had
removed the lid and discovered that I had just "stroked" a deadly redback
spider. True story. No bite, no illness, no prayer, no divine
intervention.

Am I chicken? No! I clean out septic tanks with my bare hands.

There.
Matched.
....and my example is a personal, real one, not just an injunction to read a
piece of discredited fiction.

BTW, Roger, if I did visit the Pentacostal church (wrong side of the globe,
sorry) and one of the snakes looked me in the eye and said "Would you like
to eat a piece of apple? Its very nice..." *then* I'd be impressed.

--
Jeff R.

"RogerN" wrote in message
m...

"Jeff R." wrote in message
u...

The "god" is not in the machine, Roger. Nor in your wife. Sub-vocalising
a plea to a mythical man-made omnipotent being is not going to alter the
natural progression of biology. I can match *every* one of your
"miracles" with a non-miraculous event of similar import.

But keep praying if it makes you feel better.
(That's all it does.)

--
Jeff R.

Ok, I got some "miracles" for you to match. Like I told you, some take
God life and death serious. They believe and perform the following Bible
verses:

Mark Chapter 16
17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will
drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up
snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not
hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they
will get well."

So, since you know it's all fake and you can match anything done by God, I
found you a church to go to where you prove your case by showing that you
can also handle poisonous snakes without them harming you and you can also
drink poison with no harm. Take Harold with you, you can both prove there
is nothing to it. They think God protects them but you can match it can't
you? Oops, more sarcasm slipping out :-) Go on, are ya chicken?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUdc5h10zTo

RogerN



How pitiful is that? You "dare" us to partake in that which we have
already acknowledged to be BS? You're really bouncing off the bottom now,
Roger. Would you expect us to play Russian Roulette with a loaded handgun,
too? We're not stupid. That's the part you seem to conveniently
overlook. We don't believe drinking poison is harmless. May I suggest to
you that you follow your own advice? Make sure your insurance is paid up.
Your family will thank you for your thoughtfulness.

That's not a test of faith, which neither of us claim to possess-----it's
the example of a person's ability to display the fact that he is a moron.
You, of all people, should know better than to taunt God.

You have yet to provide a shred of evidence to substantiate your
claims-----not a shred. Talk is cheap. Show us evidence, and please leave
out youtube, which can be just as fraudulent as the religion you profess to
believe.

Face it, Roger. You believe in the tooth fairly unlike others, who do not.
That's OK----we all have a right to believe that which suits our
agenda-----just don't expect the balance of society to drink that purple
punch with you, if you get my drift. That was God endorsed, as I recall.
How could anyone doubt their leader?

Harold

On Sun, 23 Nov 2008 09:49:29 GMT, the infamous "Harold and Susan
Vordos" scrawled the following:


"RogerN" wrote in message
om...

"Jeff R." wrote in message
u...

The "god" is not in the machine, Roger. Nor in your wife. Sub-vocalising
a plea to a mythical man-made omnipotent being is not going to alter the
natural progression of biology. I can match *every* one of your
"miracles" with a non-miraculous event of similar import.

But keep praying if it makes you feel better.
(That's all it does.)

--
Jeff R.

Ok, I got some "miracles" for you to match. Like I told you, some take
God life and death serious. They believe and perform the following Bible
verses:

Mark Chapter 16
17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will
drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up
snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not
hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they
will get well."

So, since you know it's all fake and you can match anything done by God, I
found you a church to go to where you prove your case by showing that you
can also handle poisonous snakes without them harming you and you can also
drink poison with no harm. Take Harold with you, you can both prove there
is nothing to it. They think God protects them but you can match it can't
you? Oops, more sarcasm slipping out :-) Go on, are ya chicken?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUdc5h10zTo

RogerN



How pitiful is that? You "dare" us to partake in that which we have
already acknowledged to be BS? You're really bouncing off the bottom now,
Roger. Would you expect us to play Russian Roulette with a loaded handgun,
too? We're not stupid. That's the part you seem to conveniently
overlook. We don't believe drinking poison is harmless. May I suggest to
you that you follow your own advice? Make sure your insurance is paid up.
Your family will thank you for your thoughtfulness.

That's not a test of faith, which neither of us claim to possess-----it's
the example of a person's ability to display the fact that he is a moron.
You, of all people, should know better than to taunt God.

You have yet to provide a shred of evidence to substantiate your
claims-----not a shred. Talk is cheap. Show us evidence, and please leave
out youtube, which can be just as fraudulent as the religion you profess to
believe.

Face it, Roger. You believe in the tooth fairly unlike others, who do not.
That's OK----we all have a right to believe that which suits our
agenda-----just don't expect the balance of society to drink that purple
punch with you, if you get my drift. That was God endorsed, as I recall.
How could anyone doubt their leader?

Harold

Who'd have thought that, _months_ later, Harold Vordos would _still_
be discussing the gods with a known Jesus Freak troll? Last year you
couldn't have forced me to believe it.

Get a room, guys.

---
Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight
very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands.
It hopes we've learned something from yesterday.
--John Wayne (1907 - 1979)

Larry Jaques wrote:
Who'd have thought that, _months_ later, Harold Vordos would _still_
be discussing the gods with a known Jesus Freak troll? Last year you
couldn't have forced me to believe it.

Get a room, guys.

Give Harold a break.
This last exchange (marked OT, BTW) is my fault.

--
Jeff R.

"Jeff R." wrote in message
...
Faith is the key, faith in God. Abraham recieved his promise from
God by faith. Moses was given the law yet he never entered into the
promised land. You can't get there by obeying Gods law. Joshua led
the people into the promised land and they had to take posession of
it by faith. You can have faith in what you see, what the doctor
tells you, what you feel like. Faith in God is believing the word of
God over what you see and feel.

Yes. A brave admission, Roger.
Faith in God is indeed believing in that which your reasoning and your
senses tell you is absurd.

Yes, now you have it. If you believe God even though all your senses, the
doctor, and everything else tells you otherwise, then you will receive what
God's word says. Your natural condition will conform to what you believe
when you believe it based on God's word. It is much more difficult for an
amputee to believe God for a new limb then it is for someone to believe for
healing from a runny nose. It's not more difficult for God to heal an
amputee but it is more difficult to believe for God to heal an amputee.
Unfortunately you have to believe without doubting.

Just don't expect anyone to respect such faith. Its no more worthy of
respect than faith in unicorns and fairies.

We just don't need it anymore.

We must be behind times around here. Our doctors around here still have to
perform surgery and still can't cure cancer. They have to cut it out and
treat it but they can't cure it. I'm glad the Doctors in your area have
cures for all all diseases. I'm glad there are no problems and nothing to
pray for in your area, are you in Heaven?

RogerN

"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message
et...

So, since you know it's all fake and you can match anything done by God,
I found you a church to go to where you prove your case by showing that
you can also handle poisonous snakes without them harming you and you can
also drink poison with no harm. Take Harold with you, you can both prove
there is nothing to it. They think God protects them but you can match
it can't you? Oops, more sarcasm slipping out :-) Go on, are ya
chicken?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUdc5h10zTo

RogerN



How pitiful is that? You "dare" us to partake in that which we have
already acknowledged to be BS? You're really bouncing off the bottom now,
Roger. Would you expect us to play Russian Roulette with a loaded
handgun, too? We're not stupid. That's the part you seem to
conveniently overlook. We don't believe drinking poison is harmless.

They believe it and get by with it. Since there is no God then surely they
must be fakes. Go grab a couple of snakes (probably defanged) and drink a
glass of their fake poison and expose them for the phonies they are. Tell
them you don't believe in God and ask them to pass you a rattler, copperhead
and glass of strychnine. You don't need any faith in God to handle those
garter snakes they painted or that water they call strychnine, go prove it
to em.

You have yet to provide a shred of evidence to substantiate your
claims-----not a shred. Talk is cheap. Show us evidence, and please
leave out youtube, which can be just as fraudulent as the religion you
profess to believe.

What do you call evidence? What "evidence" could possibly be shown to you
that would cause you to believe? Didn't you say in an earlier post that you
pride yourself on being hard headed? You might of worded it differently
though, like refusing to change your mind or similar.

Face it, Roger. You believe in the tooth fairly unlike others, who do
not.

I put a tooth under my pillow without telling anyone about it and the tooth
fairy didn't come. I was devistated and lost my faith in the toot fairy.
Every since then I glued my teeth back in with JB Weld, great stuff. Why
loose your teeth if ya ain't gonna get 50 cents for them.

If you remember or read, in other posts I stated that I need 8 hrs per week
overtime to make ends meet comfortably. Also, the day after the election
the company I work for suspended all project work, that was the source of my
overtime. I can get Overtime now if something breaks down and I need to
work on it after hours. The week before last I managed to get 4 hours.
Last week I only got 1.3 hours overtime. Things aren't looking very good at
that point. Then yesterday they had a sprinkler system freeze and break and
sprayed lots of water all over the 4160V transformers and the electronic
circuit breakers (3200A frame and 800A frame). I got called in, the
majority of the day was letting the water dry out with heaters blowing on
the electricals. I ended up with 11.6 hours giving me a total for the week
of 12.9 hours. So my past 2 week average was over 8hrs /week. It just
seemed funny that I get my needed overtime due to the temperature and wind,
an "act of God" as they call it.

RogerN

"RogerN" wrote in message
m...
snop---

So my past 2 week average was over 8hrs /week. It just seemed funny that
I get my needed overtime due to the temperature and wind, an "act of God"
as they call it.


Sigh!

So you're of the opinion that your god sacrificed the well-being of the
owner to insure that you got your overtime pay? How sick is that?

You, my friend, are a sick person. I certainly wouldn't want you hanging
around me, for fear of you sacrificing me for your benefit.

See what I mean about religious zealots? No price to great for anyone else
to pay, just as long as they get theirs. Talk about a good Christian
attitude.

Roger, I am not a religious person, but I am gifted with a sense of fairness
and justice. I don't think anyone must give up something so my life is
better. You don't behave like a Christian, you just use it as an excuse
for all the ills of your life. Were you as religious as you profess,
you'd have gladly given your job all the time necessary to insure they
survived the unfortunate happening, and done so as a gift, to help them
minimize their losses. Instead, you glorify the situation as a tribute
to your God? He hurts others so you can have money?

Follow the money, Roger, follow the money. See what I mean? It's not
really about religion, it's about being self centered.

Harold

"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message
et...

"RogerN" wrote in message
m...
snop---

So my past 2 week average was over 8hrs /week. It just seemed funny
that I get my needed overtime due to the temperature and wind, an "act of
God" as they call it.


Sigh!

So you're of the opinion that your god sacrificed the well-being of the
owner to insure that you got your overtime pay? How sick is that?

Harold, once again you show you don't know what you're talking about. The
company I work for doesn't treat their employees very well. I took a job
there with a $5 per hour cut while on 6 months probation. I was to gain
better benefits and equal pay but I went from days to 12hour weekend shifts.
I fulfilled my part, worked whenever they wanted, tried real hard, etc. In
turn before I even got off of probation, the plant had a union vote and
voted it down, in turn the company took away many of the very benefits they
told us were reasons to vote no. Almost every year the company took away
benefits and a couple of years ago, they gave all their hourly employees a
10% pay cut and a 13%+ benefits right after Christmas. In the company
meetings I picked up on them claiming that our plant had a 90 million dollar
payroll and at another meeting they told us that they loose 90 million
dollars per year. So if we all worked for free then they would just barely
break even. They told us the department that they loose the most money on,
but for some reason they are expanding that department the most. I guess
they want to loose more money or they lie to us.

When we were told to quit on the project we were working on, there was a
drive guy their getting the 2000HP drive running. He was flown in from
Germany and had been there a few days and only had one more day to go. The
company had him stop, they were told it would cost them more to have him
come back and finish at a later time than it would to have him go ahead and
complete his job. The company didn't care that it would cost more, they
just wanted it on next years project budget.

Most plants pay skilled labor a good percent higher than the unskilled
labor. This plant didn't, when they cut hourly wages 10% across the board,
unskilled labor was still paid a little better than most similar jobs in the
area, but not so for maintenance electricians. We have had several
electricians leave for more than a $10 per hour increase plus better
benefits. By the companies choice, they have replaced 20 year employees
that could fix a problem in 1 hour with new employees that take 5 hours on
the same problem. They choose 5 hours downtime at $21 per hour instead of 1
hour downtime at $23 per hour.

The company decided to have a cleanup day and they threw away $1500
industrial monitor panels just to have to buy new ones a month later when
they needed them.

The company is owned by Germans and they make us use their equipment even
though: their equipment was more expensive, their equipment had longer lead
times for replacment parts, their equipment was less reliable, their
equipment produced more scrap. We have 5 rows of Allen Bradley controlled
curing presses and one row of German controlled curing presses. The one row
of German presses produced 80% of the scrap.

So, if you think I should donate my time to a company that didn't keep their
end of the agreement and has repeatedly taken wages and benefits. Then they
turn around and throw more away in a day then I make in a week. If they are
going to call me in on the weekend, when they have so much product on the
floor that the fork trucks have trouble getting around, the shelves are full
and the floor is filling up. Why should I give them my time for free? It
was their choice to call me in when they were drying out the switch gear. I
worked on other things that needed worked on while the the drying was going
on. They had 2 mixers down and 13 mixers running and they are going to have
a curtailment next weekend. So I'm sorry if you think I should donate my
time for them to waste my weekend but I have a different opinion.

Before I came to this job I was a controls engineer and designed, built, and
programmed machine control for industrial automation. The company I work
for now pays other companies 3X my wage to do what I can do and they may
decide to have me changing light bulbs. I'm not responsible for their
decisions but I'm not donating my time to them so they can waste it. The
waste is their choice, they had approximately 20 - 30 maintenance people on
the shift and if they want me to come in too, they can pay me for my time
just as they do the others.

Harold,

I found a video of a machine that I did the controls designing, building,
and programming on at my previous job. This video was from July 2001, a
couple of months later we were installing it at the customers site when I
heard about the planes hitting the World Trade Center towers on September
11th.

http://users.wildblue.net/regor/bulb_skt_assy.wmv

It was a fairly easy program but the machine was fun because so much was
going on for such a small machine. It was all programmed in ladder logic on
a Mitsubishi PLC. There were 4 servo actuators, 2 for the bulb pick and
place and 2 for the bulb-socket assembly to the tray pick and place.

That was in 2001, today I work for a company that might decide to have me
changing light bulbs or otherwise wasting my abilities tomorrow. I could do
some valuable work for the company but instead they choose to waste my
abilities. Sorry if I don't agree with you that I should donate my time to
them.

RogerN

"RogerN" wrote in message
m...
snip-

if they want me to come in too, they can pay me for my time
just as they do the others.


You have my sympathy, Roger, but not my understanding. I've been involved
in a job where I wasn't happy----in fact, more than once. I solved the
riddle by leaving, not staying and stealing from the company, as if it was
justified. I suggest you grow some balls and act accordingly.

Needless to say, I didn't really mean to imply that you should work for
free----far from it. What I did mean to imply is that you are so blinded by
your faith that you see good in bad things and delight in the benefit you
receive, in spite of the harm done to others. It doesn't matter what goes
wrong, you're going to think that God has singled you out for success,
regardless of how much others are hurt. Maybe you can justify that kind
of convoluted thinking, but in my opinion it exemplifies what's wrong with
religious zealots. In particular, you are an unbalanced individual, unable
to discern right from wrong.

You accuse me of being narrow of mind, yet you appear to have no room for
anything but reactions at the hands of God. You can't even entertain the
idea that some things happen because that's the nature of things, with no
guidance. Which one of us is narrow of mind? I can certainly
understand how there could be a creator-----I choose to believe there isn't
because I've never seen anything that constitutes evidence to support the
notion, yet I see, daily, how the concept is used to screw over humanity.
One sect can find justification in killing another because they can't agree
on which god is correct----or other atrocities, all in the name of God.
Really makes one wonder, doesn't it?

You have convoluted thinking, Roger, and you justify it as if it is approved
by God. Moral people don't enjoy benefiting by the losses of others.
But then, that's my logic------the logic of what you consider a heathen.
I wonder how your God would judge the two of us?

Harold

"RogerN" wrote in message
m...
Harold,

I found a video of a machine that I did the controls designing, building,
and programming on at my previous job. This video was from July 2001, a
couple of months later we were installing it at the customers site when I
heard about the planes hitting the World Trade Center towers on September
11th.

http://users.wildblue.net/regor/bulb_skt_assy.wmv

Very interesting machine, Roger, although I have no clue what you're talking
about. I know virtually nothing about computers, or computer controlled
machines. I envy you your knowledge.

I was self employed from 1967 until I sold my refining business and retired
in spring of '94. I had spent 26 years in the machining industry,
primarily in aero-space and defense, plus a little time working for the
pharmaceutical industry, primarily building tooling for manufacturing
products, or building precision metering pumps for a computerized blood
analyzing machine. 16 of those years were running my own shop. I then
spent the next 11 years processing precious metals, selling the business I
had founded to retire.

There's a reason I was self employed, Roger. It's because I was not happy
working for the other guy. I knew I had capabilities, and I had
confidence in myself that I could be successful. I did not wait for God
to reward me at the costs of the grief and sorrow of others.

Your head needs a trip to the shop. You "ain't" right!

It's time to stand on your own two legs and do something with yourself.

Harold

"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message
. net...

There's a reason I was self employed, Roger. It's because I was not happy
working for the other guy. I knew I had capabilities, and I had
confidence in myself that I could be successful. I did not wait for
God to reward me at the costs of the grief and sorrow of others.

Your head needs a trip to the shop. You "ain't" right!

If that was the case then I would agree with you. There was no sorrow or
grief of others. I don't try to climb the ladder of success and step on
others on the way. If I do something more successful than other, I try to
lend a hand and help others. If I gain knowledge or insight, I don't go
boast to my boss but I openly share it with others often letting them tell
the boss like it was their idea. My coming in for the overtime on Saturday
saved another employee from getting called in. The one who would have been
called in if I refused to come in had plans for the weekend.

There has been times I've been sent to help others repair a machine and
would find something simple that they missed. I didn't expose their mistake
to the boss or others I just acted like working together we found the
problem and fixed it.

You sure seem to take what I write and find a way to twist it. I wasn't
happy about having to go and work 12 hours on Saturday but you are right
about me trying to see the good in a bad situation. It does help me
financially and I saved another employees Saturday the he could enjoy the
game he went to. If I get all upset about being called in I go in with a
bad attitude and am less productive. Instead I went in, checked out the
situation, saw the electricals were drying, and fixed other problems they
were having with the line. I also sent some e-mails trying to get something
done so if something similar would happen again we might be able to get the
line running without the single server computer that had that whole line
down.

It's time to stand on your own two legs and do something with yourself.

I'm trying to, that's a lot of my interest in playing with the CNC machines.
I'm responsible to my family and don't want to do something I'll regret and
hurt them in the process. If I can find something I can get into on the
side and grow it from there, that would be ideal.

RogerN wrote:
... I'm glad there are no
problems and nothing to pray for in your area, are you in Heaven?

RogerN

Sorry Roger, I'm bailing.
Your sarcasm is very tiring and annoying, and I find your version of
(god-given?) morality quite repulsive and self-centred. It's sad how you
find divine justification for behaving like a prick at work.

If you are an advertisement for biblical morality, then give me secular any
day.

--
Jeff R.

RogerN wrote:
"David R.Birch" wrote in message
...
Thereby producing an effect indistinguishable from the effect of his
non-existence.

David

It is indistinguishable up to the point of "all things working together for
good", that is the point that is distinguishable.

Ok, what if God delivered all who believe in him from all hardships,
sicknesses, etc.? Then statistics would show that Christians never get
sick, never get in wrecks, and never have any kind of physical or financial
hardships. People would become Christians just because God "paid" them, not
because they loved the Lord. This is how God separates the wheat from the
chaff. God needs you for fire wood to keep his people warm :-)

RogerN

Gee, Roger, why hasn't God given you a better job, instead of causing
events that lead to you getting overtime?

David

On Tue, 25 Nov 2008 00:18:48 +1100, "Jeff R."
wrote:

Sorry Roger, I'm bailing.
Your sarcasm is very tiring and annoying, and I find your version of
(god-given?) morality quite repulsive and self-centred. It's sad how you
find divine justification for behaving like a prick at work.


Odd that we get the same bit of self rightiousness from the atheists
here and you dont complain.

Shrug

Gunner

"They couldn't hit an elephant at this dist..."
Maj. Gen. John Sedgewick, killed by a sniper in 1864 at the battle of Spotsylvania

"David R.Birch" wrote in message
...

Gee, Roger, why hasn't God given you a better job, instead of causing
events that lead to you getting overtime?

David

Like Harold said, **** happens! Many people have better jobs than I do,
many others have worse. All I can do is try to go with the flow and make
the best of it.

RogerN

"Jeff R." wrote in message
u...
RogerN wrote:
... I'm glad there are no
problems and nothing to pray for in your area, are you in Heaven?

RogerN

Sorry Roger, I'm bailing.
Your sarcasm is very tiring and annoying, and I find your version of
(god-given?) morality quite repulsive and self-centred. It's sad how you
find divine justification for behaving like a prick at work.

If you are an advertisement for biblical morality, then give me secular
any day.

--
Jeff R.

Let's see, some machines go down and I get called in on my weekend, most
weekends I have to work overtime whether I want to or not. So, I come in
and work. The electrical transformer and breakers are wet so while they are
drying I go and fix other problems that I wasn't called in for. After the
breakers are dry I help get the equipment fired up. I got the machine I was
called in for going and helped with other machines. What part is behaving
like a prick?

RogerN

"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message
et...

You have convoluted thinking, Roger, and you justify it as if it is
approved by God. Moral people don't enjoy benefiting by the losses of
others. But then, that's my logic------the logic of what you consider a
heathen. I wonder how your God would judge the two of us?

Harold

Ok Harold, let me tell how it is as if you were the employer and I was your
employee. For starters, after a long history of taking away benefits from
employees, you decide to give all your hourly employees a 23%+ cut in wages
and benefits. You claim this is because the company is losing so much money
and you just want to lose less money. Right after this, your employees are
reading that the company is bosting of making record profits every quarter.

Since so many employees quit, you have to hire recruiters to go to job fairs
to try to get people to work for the reduced wages. Meanwhile you make the
employees that didn't leave have to work mandatory overtime. They are
willing to work the overtime because you cut their pay and they need the
money.

So, let's say you have 15 machines that do the same thing but since the
economy is down you idle 4 of the machines. Now you have a "**** happens"
and takes down 2 more of the machines. You could start up any or all of the
4 idle machines or you could call people to come in on their weekend off to
work on the machines that are down. You choose to call in people on one of
the few weekends a year that they aren't working and they come in to help
out.

You called them in too soon in a panic and now they can't do much because
the equipment has to dry out. So the employee, without being asked,
corrects other problems with the machine, as much as they can do under the
circumstances. The machine I was called in on still had power but relies on
a server computer that didn't have power. After the power is restored, this
employee gets the equipment going that you called them in on and helps on
the other equipment until the next shift comes in.

Do you consider that to be a bad employee just because they needed the money
they earned?

RogerN

"RogerN" wrote in message
m...

"David R.Birch" wrote in message
...

Gee, Roger, why hasn't God given you a better job, instead of causing
events that lead to you getting overtime?

David

Like Harold said, **** happens! Many people have better jobs than I do,
many others have worse. All I can do is try to go with the flow and make
the best of it.

RogerN


That's sort of what I've been alluding to right along, Roger. Everything in
life isn't to do with God, assuming there is one. We are dealt a hand of
cards----it's up to us how we play them. Your destiny is in your hands,
not the hands of God.

Want proof?

Sit home and pray for success. *Do not hold a job*. It won't take you
long to understand that there are no miracles.

I have known unworthy people that have enjoyed considerable success and
wealth in life------people that had no belief, remotely, in a creator.
By sharp contrast, I have also known some very religious people that
suffered greatly----not being able to make their way in the world.

If there's a God, we are on our own. We make our own good fortune, we make
our own successes in life. Poorly educated individuals with considerable
drive and faith in their own abilities are often far more successful than
their counterparts, who are well educated (fools), with no drive, or notion
of what constitutes success in their lives. Even when they pray, I might
add.

If you must praise your God, do so privately, and don't expect miracles.
It's like people that see the success of others and declare how "lucky" they
are.

My experiences in life dictate that the guy that is so "lucky" has dedicated
a great deal of time and effort to his success-----proving that the harder
you work, the luckier you become. YMMV.

Harold

"RogerN" wrote in message
m...

"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message
et...

You have convoluted thinking, Roger, and you justify it as if it is
approved by God. Moral people don't enjoy benefiting by the losses of
others. But then, that's my logic------the logic of what you consider a
heathen. I wonder how your God would judge the two of us?

Harold

Ok Harold, let me tell how it is as if you were the employer and I was
your employee. For starters, after a long history of taking away benefits
from employees, you decide to give all your hourly employees a 23%+ cut in
wages and benefits. You claim this is because the company is losing so
much money and you just want to lose less money. Right after this, your
employees are reading that the company is bosting of making record profits
every quarter.

Since so many employees quit, you have to hire recruiters to go to job
fairs to try to get people to work for the reduced wages. Meanwhile you
make the employees that didn't leave have to work mandatory overtime.
They are willing to work the overtime because you cut their pay and they
need the money.

So, let's say you have 15 machines that do the same thing but since the
economy is down you idle 4 of the machines. Now you have a "**** happens"
and takes down 2 more of the machines. You could start up any or all of
the 4 idle machines or you could call people to come in on their weekend
off to work on the machines that are down. You choose to call in people
on one of the few weekends a year that they aren't working and they come
in to help out.

You called them in too soon in a panic and now they can't do much because
the equipment has to dry out. So the employee, without being asked,
corrects other problems with the machine, as much as they can do under the
circumstances. The machine I was called in on still had power but relies
on a server computer that didn't have power. After the power is restored,
this employee gets the equipment going that you called them in on and
helps on the other equipment until the next shift comes in.

Do you consider that to be a bad employee just because they needed the
money they earned?

RogerN


The point I've tried to stress, apparently with little success, is that you
seem to think that the misfortune of others is a blessing given to you by
God. Said another way, it's as if God sanctioned the disaster, such as it
is, so you could make the additional pay. I have a lot of trouble with
that, Roger, just as I have trouble with hardcore Muslims thinking that
anyone that doesn't agree with their philosophy should die. Individuals,
for some strange reason, seem able to place themselves above all others, as
if they alone were created by this God you speak of, rendering their fellow
man and other life forms expendable. People with that mindset screw
over their fellow man routinely------something I witnessed first hand in my
56 years of living in the heart of the mormons, Salt Lake City, Utah. They
do not have a corner on abuse-----any regional majority religion tends to
behave in a like manor. Virtually all have forgotten the message of
Christ----making them far less Christ-like as their dogmatic approach to
their religion deepens.

Roger, I think, from what you're saying, that you're a decent guy that is so
blinded by his faith that he can't see things clearly. You must get a
grip, and you can do that by beginning to pray in private, and not impose
your unreasonable beliefs (superstitions) on others. If you expect me,
and others, to respect your right to be religious, you must respect our
rights to not be. You would go a long ways towards doing that by not
waving your God concept in our faces, as if you are the sole authority, and
know exactly of what you speak.

You may have studied the Bible all your life, and may have dedicated
yourself totally to your religion, but doing so does not make it true, nor
right. It may or may not be, but that's not the point. You have chosen
to allow your beliefs to control your very being----and you're letting that
control spill over to others in an attempt to show them the way. It
doesn't work for everyone, Roger. One of my most cherished friends, a
gentleman more than 25 years my senior, was an avowed atheist. He was one
of the kindest and considerate people I have ever known. From that you
can conclude that one need not believe in a creator to be a decent
individual. If you choose to do so, do so privately, and allow others the
privilege to have their beliefs. After all, yours are just as absurd to
them as theirs are to you.

I honestly believe that I can carry on a conversation with an individual
without knowing his religious preferences or beliefs. I really don't want
to know them, and I don't want them thrown in my face. The moment they make
them known, I realize I should be talking with others instead.

Harold

"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message
...


The point I've tried to stress, apparently with little success, is that
you seem to think that the misfortune of others is a blessing given to you
by God. Said another way, it's as if God sanctioned the disaster, such
as it is, so you could make the additional pay. I have a lot of trouble
with that, Roger, just as I have trouble with hardcore Muslims thinking
that anyone that doesn't agree with their philosophy should die.
Individuals, for some strange reason, seem able to place themselves above
all others, as if they alone were created by this God you speak of,
rendering their fellow man and other life forms expendable. People
with that mindset screw over their fellow man routinely------something I
witnessed first hand in my 56 years of living in the heart of the mormons,
Salt Lake City, Utah. They do not have a corner on abuse-----any regional
majority religion tends to behave in a like manor. Virtually all have
forgotten the message of Christ----making them far less Christ-like as
their dogmatic approach to their religion deepens.

Roger, I think, from what you're saying, that you're a decent guy that is
so blinded by his faith that he can't see things clearly. You must get
a grip, and you can do that by beginning to pray in private, and not
impose your unreasonable beliefs (superstitions) on others. If you
expect me, and others, to respect your right to be religious, you must
respect our rights to not be. You would go a long ways towards doing
that by not waving your God concept in our faces, as if you are the sole
authority, and know exactly of what you speak.

I'm not wanting to push my religion down anyones throats. I've met them
kind of people and I don't like them. All I want to do is let people that
need it know the results that worked for me and thousands of others. The
reason for Jesus is because I'm such a hopeless case that I can't be moral
enough to deserve to go to heaven or even get my prayers heard by God. In
my hopelessness Jesus is my only hope, he paid the price for all that choose
that narrow way. I'm really pathetic, believe me, all my friends would
agree. But don't forget, I'm not a good Christian, I don't go to church and
I have sin in my life. There has been times in my life I have turned away
from my sin and looked straight to God, that is the times I received
miracles. I doubt about everything I can but when I have a problem for
years and years, and get healed at the same time I am drawing close to God,
and a problem I have had for years gets healed at the very moment that
coincides with my repentance and prayer. All I know is that it worked for
me on numerous occasions.

You may have studied the Bible all your life, and may have dedicated
yourself totally to your religion, but doing so does not make it true, nor
right. It may or may not be, but that's not the point. You have chosen
to allow your beliefs to control your very being----and you're letting
that control spill over to others in an attempt to show them the way.
It doesn't work for everyone, Roger. One of my most cherished friends,
a gentleman more than 25 years my senior, was an avowed atheist. He was
one of the kindest and considerate people I have ever known. From that
you can conclude that one need not believe in a creator to be a decent
individual. If you choose to do so, do so privately, and allow others
the privilege to have their beliefs. After all, yours are just as absurd
to them as theirs are to you.

As far as understanding the Bible I may rate myself at a 2nd to 3rd grade
education but the Athiests I hear putting down the Bible I can tell they
don't know what they are talking about. It would be kind of like someone
that doesn't know squat about machining saying Machinery's Handbook was crap
because it says to cut metal at 120 SFM and the lathe and mill doesn't even
have a SFM setting. The Athiests talking about the Bible are just as
ignorant of it as the Machinery's Handbook example I used above. The SFM
settings don't make sense unless you know how to calculate the RPM from the
SFM and diameter of the stock. Likewise many things in the Bible doesn't
make sense unless you understand other parts of the Bible.

I honestly believe that I can carry on a conversation with an individual
without knowing his religious preferences or beliefs. I really don't
want to know them, and I don't want them thrown in my face. The moment
they make them known, I realize I should be talking with others instead.

Harold

RogerN wrote:
"David R.Birch" wrote in message
...
Gee, Roger, why hasn't God given you a better job, instead of causing
events that lead to you getting overtime?

David

Like Harold said, **** happens! Many people have better jobs than I do,
many others have worse. All I can do is try to go with the flow and make
the best of it.

Which is what we all do and it works out regardless of whether we need
invisible friends to believe in.

Screw this "patience of Job" nonsense, if a god I worshiped shat on me
like yours does on you, I'd have started questioning his value in my
life a long time ago.

David

"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message
...

If there's a God, we are on our own. We make our own good fortune, we
make our own successes in life. Poorly educated individuals with
considerable drive and faith in their own abilities are often far more
successful than their counterparts, who are well educated (fools), with no
drive, or notion of what constitutes success in their lives. Even when
they pray, I might add.

If you must praise your God, do so privately, and don't expect miracles.
It's like people that see the success of others and declare how "lucky"
they are.

My experiences in life dictate that the guy that is so "lucky" has
dedicated a great deal of time and effort to his success-----proving that
the harder you work, the luckier you become. YMMV.

Harold

I'd say you got it right Harold, for those who don't have faith in God,
there is no evidence of him. They are on their own.

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who
comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who
diligently seek Him.

Harold, it sounds like you believe in hard work and have good moral values,
that is very honorable and about all that can be asked by human standards.

Living here in Illinois, I can live my whole life without any evidence of
their being a Statue of Liberty. Others, however, may drive by the Statue
of Liberty every day. I can believe there is no such thing as a Statue of
Liberty since I've lived my whole life without seeing it. There are others
that have evidence of it and my lack of evidence doesn't have any affect on
the truth that the Statue of Liberty exists. Likewise your lack of seeing
Jesus Christ after the ressurection doesn't negate the 500+ eye witnesses
that did see him. Most of Jesus' disciples were killed for their faith,
Paul spent a lot of time in prison for talking about Jesus, for them it
wasn't all about the money. Actually most preachers I know of have other
jobs, the TV preachers might make tons of $$$ but few others do.

Let's pretend for example that perhaps someone you knew real well got real
bad sick with something like cancer. And the doctors tried to do surgery
but upon cutting them open, they found the cancer was too bad and they
couldn't remove it. So we're pretending that someone has an incurable case
of cancer and they don't have long to live. Now suppose someone tells you
that Jesus can heal cancer and you think they are full of ****. Then they
pray for this person that you are very close to and the person gets up and
the cancer falls off of their body. Now, even if you didn't believe it you
saw it happen with your own eyes and know it wasn't fake because you were
there when this person went to the doctors, you know their condition first
hand, you know for fact it wasn't staged. Ok, pretending that's the case,
you see someone on the newsgroup saying that healings don't happen, that
there are no miracles, etc. What would you do? If you tell them what you
say they will call you a simpleton flat earther and stuff like that, but
should you deny what you know happened just because others don't believe it?
What if you like these other people but they treat you like dirt just
because of something you have witnessed yourself, even though you yourself,
like them, didn't believe in it at one time. If you ever do see proof of
God you better keep it quite unless you want others to jump all over you and
tell you what a fool you are.

God is not my genie in a bottle, he doesn't obey me, I'm supposed to obey
him (though I don't do that very good either). If I quit my job why would
he provide for me? Now if he told me to quit my job that would be a
different story. If I quit my job I can believe I would not do without food
and clothes, but I may lose everything else I have. If I do obey God and
meet him on his terms I get results, otherwise I seldom get results.

2 Chronicles 7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble
themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways;
then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal
their land.

Notice who needs the humble themselves, pray, seek Gods face, and turn from
their wicked ways... God's people that are called by his name.

Here's something I find interesting.
John 14 11Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in
me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. 12I tell
you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He
will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.
13And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory
to the Father. 14You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

This is one of many verses where Jesus gives those with faith in him the
authority to do the very miracles that he did, and even greater ones. You
have to keep in mind that when he says you can ask him for anything, he was
talking to those whose lives were dedicated to him. I was kind of hoping
he'd give me with winning lottery numbers but it didn't happen :-) Anyway,
if Jesus was a phoney it would be kind of a strange thing for him to pass
his abilities down to others.

RogerN

I skipped the meeting, but the Memos showed that "David R.Birch"
wrote on Tue, 25 Nov 2008 06:45:21 -0600 in
rec.crafts.metalworking :
RogerN wrote:
"David R.Birch" wrote in message
...
Gee, Roger, why hasn't God given you a better job, instead of causing
events that lead to you getting overtime?

David

Like Harold said, **** happens! Many people have better jobs than I do,
many others have worse. All I can do is try to go with the flow and make
the best of it.

Which is what we all do and it works out regardless of whether we need
invisible friends to believe in.

Screw this "patience of Job" nonsense, if a god I worshiped shat on me
like yours does on you, I'd have started questioning his value in my
life a long time ago.

How protestant of you. That seems to be the American version of
God: good things happen to you as a sign of God's favor, bad things
happen to you because you are unloved by God.
The question to ask when "bad" things happen is not "Why?", but
"How?" Not "God, why is this happening to me?" but rather "How, O
Lord, are we to persevere?" Earthquake, Flood, Famine, Federal
Elections, flat tires, flatulence, or ring around the collar - the
question to ask is "Now, what do I do?"
To quote Zorba "I 've hands, feet, a head - they do the work, what
do I care?"


tschus
pyotr


--
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!

pyotr filipivich wrote:

Screw this "patience of Job" nonsense, if a god I worshiped shat
on me like yours does on you, I'd have started questioning his
value in my life a long time ago.

How protestant of you. That seems to be the American version of
God: good things happen to you as a sign of God's favor, bad things
happen to you because you are unloved by God.

Nah, good things happen because I work hard and try to treat people
fairly, bad things happen because I can't watch everything at once.
Mostly...

So far, I haven't seen the hand of God in either.

The question to ask when "bad" things happen is not "Why?", but
"How?" Not "God, why is this happening to me?" but rather "How,
O Lord, are we to persevere?" Earthquake, Flood, Famine, Federal
Elections, flat tires, flatulence, or ring around the collar - the
question to ask is "Now, what do I do?"

"What I do" is carry on as if God didn't exist, the effect is
indistinguishable from reality.

To quote Zorba "I 've hands, feet, a head - they do the work, what
do I care?"

Yes.

David

I skipped the meeting, but the Memos showed that "David R.Birch"
wrote on Wed, 26 Nov 2008 16:00:37 -0600 in
rec.crafts.metalworking :
pyotr filipivich wrote:

Screw this "patience of Job" nonsense, if a god I worshiped shat
on me like yours does on you, I'd have started questioning his
value in my life a long time ago.

How protestant of you. That seems to be the American version of
God: good things happen to you as a sign of God's favor, bad things
happen to you because you are unloved by God.

Nah, good things happen because I work hard and try to treat people
fairly, bad things happen because I can't watch everything at once.
Mostly...

So far, I haven't seen the hand of God in either.

The question to ask when "bad" things happen is not "Why?", but
"How?" Not "God, why is this happening to me?" but rather "How,
O Lord, are we to persevere?" Earthquake, Flood, Famine, Federal
Elections, flat tires, flatulence, or ring around the collar - the
question to ask is "Now, what do I do?"

"What I do" is carry on as if God didn't exist, the effect is
indistinguishable from reality.

If it works for you, good luck with it.

As me Ma used to say "I'm just in Sales, that's a question for
management."
--
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!