"Jeff R." wrote in message
u...
RogerN wrote:

Really? My wife's healings were fake? The doctors and lab tests were
wrong? Are you sure? Did you examine the problem with her wisdom
teeth, her gall bladder, and her hepatitis? I saw the symptoms
before prayer and new the trouble she had sleeping and the vomiting
sure looked real. For the life of me I can't remember you being
there. snip lots more of the same

Roger, sarcasm is the lowest form of wit, and is not a very persuasive
form of argument.

Harold was the one seeming to know more about my experiences than I do. And
now you too. I've seen a lot of natural healing, remission, etc, I know the
difference.


I don't think anyone is disputing the discomfort experienced by you and/or
your family. Nor is anyone disputing the cure, or resolution of the
problems.

As I see it, the only dispute is the *agency* of the relief.

You claim that God heard your prayers, then altered the plan that he had
devised at creation for the universe throughout eternity, sufficiently to
relieve your pains. This was as a direct and specific response to your
supplication. Presumably, if you had not made the petition to God, then
the pain would have not abated.

You already show your complete lack of understanding of God and his plan.
God revealed his plan of salvation all over and in many different ways in
the Old Testament and show the fullfillment of it in the New Testament.

Is that a fair summary of your position?

Now, most non-theistic types will (presumably) rely on agencies such as
medicine, dentistry, pharmaceuticals and the well-documented ability of
the body to heal itself without external intervention.

Yes, I know about all of those, been using them for years.

It seems that they experience relief at the same rate as those who use
prayer.

Most prayer doesn't seem to help much in my experience. The Bible is full
of many that prayed without results and few that got Gods attention and he
answered them. If you get real serious with God then prayer will yeild
awesome results.

Either god is favouring the non-believers with the same deliberation with
which he favours the faithful (the supplicants),

Wrong yet again...

...or...

maybe the whole "god" thing doesn't enter into the argument at all.

All (well -*most*) of us have witnessed remissions and cures and reliefs
that have been visited upon non-believers. If they happen to *you*,
Roger, then they are miracles! Gifts from God. If they happen to a
non-believer, then they are... what? Just the natural progression of the
functioning of the human body?

Wrong again, I've had all kinds of natural healings my whole life that I
don't considers miracles. Why do you respond when you don't know what
you're talking about?

Roger, you don't need to invent a "god" to explain things. Not anymore.

Great, explain how someone has problems with wisdom teeth that need to be
extracted one minute and the next minute all problems with them are gone.

Sometimes, when I'm facing stainless steel, the tool chatters and I'm left
with a "stippled" finish. On other occasions, with very similar setups,
there is no chatter and the finish is mirror-smooth.

Should I praise the Lord for the fine finish, and pray for more of the
same, or should I seek to find the source of the chatter?

Did the Lord tell you to machine the stainless steel? Did he tell you what
setup, speeds, and feeds to use?

I suspect my colleagues might call the men in white if they observe me
praying for a mirror finish before I turn on the lathe.

...yet, no-one sees anything eccentric if I am observed praying for my
wife's speedy recovery. "How sweet.." they intone... "He really cares for
her."

(Well yes, I care enough to pay for the best professional medical care,
and then I support her *myself* in her recovery.)

The "god" is not in the machine, Roger. Nor in your wife. Sub-vocalising
a plea to a mythical man-made omnipotent being is not going to alter the
natural progression of biology. I can match *every* one of your
"miracles" with a non-miraculous event of similar import.

No you can't. Sure there a cases where healing takes place over time but
natural healing doesn't normally happen instantly. Perhaps you can match a
3 minute healing with a 3 day or 3 week natural healing, but that isn't
realy a match.

But keep praying if it makes you feel better.
(That's all it does.)

Yes, when God miracously heals someone it does make them feel better.

Faith is the key, faith in God. Abraham recieved his promise from God by
faith. Moses was given the law yet he never entered into the promised land.
You can't get there by obeying Gods law. Joshua led the people into the
promised land and they had to take posession of it by faith. You can have
faith in what you see, what the doctor tells you, what you feel like. Faith
in God is believing the word of God over what you see and feel.

RogerN