RogerN wrote:

Really? My wife's healings were fake? The doctors and lab tests were
wrong? Are you sure? Did you examine the problem with her wisdom
teeth, her gall bladder, and her hepatitis? I saw the symptoms
before prayer and new the trouble she had sleeping and the vomiting
sure looked real. For the life of me I can't remember you being
there. snip lots more of the same

Roger, sarcasm is the lowest form of wit, and is not a very persuasive form
of argument.

I don't think anyone is disputing the discomfort experienced by you and/or
your family. Nor is anyone disputing the cure, or resolution of the
problems.

As I see it, the only dispute is the *agency* of the relief.

You claim that God heard your prayers, then altered the plan that he had
devised at creation for the universe throughout eternity, sufficiently to
relieve your pains. This was as a direct and specific response to your
supplication. Presumably, if you had not made the petition to God, then the
pain would have not abated.

Is that a fair summary of your position?

Now, most non-theistic types will (presumably) rely on agencies such as
medicine, dentistry, pharmaceuticals and the well-documented ability of the
body to heal itself without external intervention.

It seems that they experience relief at the same rate as those who use
prayer.

Either god is favouring the non-believers with the same deliberation with
which he favours the faithful (the supplicants),

....or...

maybe the whole "god" thing doesn't enter into the argument at all.

All (well -*most*) of us have witnessed remissions and cures and reliefs
that have been visited upon non-believers. If they happen to *you*, Roger,
then they are miracles! Gifts from God. If they happen to a non-believer,
then they are... what? Just the natural progression of the functioning of
the human body?

Roger, you don't need to invent a "god" to explain things. Not anymore.

Sometimes, when I'm facing stainless steel, the tool chatters and I'm left
with a "stippled" finish. On other occasions, with very similar setups,
there is no chatter and the finish is mirror-smooth.

Should I praise the Lord for the fine finish, and pray for more of the same,
or should I seek to find the source of the chatter?

I suspect my colleagues might call the men in white if they observe me
praying for a mirror finish before I turn on the lathe.

....yet, no-one sees anything eccentric if I am observed praying for my
wife's speedy recovery. "How sweet.." they intone... "He really cares for
her."

(Well yes, I care enough to pay for the best professional medical care, and
then I support her *myself* in her recovery.)

The "god" is not in the machine, Roger. Nor in your wife. Sub-vocalising a
plea to a mythical man-made omnipotent being is not going to alter the
natural progression of biology. I can match *every* one of your "miracles"
with a non-miraculous event of similar import.

But keep praying if it makes you feel better.
(That's all it does.)

--
Jeff R.