RogerN wrote:
"Jeff R." wrote in message
u...

Harold was the one seeming to know more about my experiences than I
do. And now you too. I've seen a lot of natural healing, remission,
etc, I know the difference.

Really?
What is the difference? The tangible difference.
Other than your perception - or opinion - of the event.

You claim that God heard your prayers, then altered the plan that he
had devised at creation for the universe throughout eternity,
sufficiently to relieve your pains. This was as a direct and
specific response to your supplication. Presumably, if you had not
made the petition to God, then the pain would have not abated.

You already show your complete lack of understanding of God and his
plan. God revealed his plan of salvation all over and in many
different ways in the Old Testament and show the fullfillment of it
in the New Testament.

What?
You're right, though. I don't understand God's plan. I don't presume to
know God's mind. Beats me how anyone can be sufficiently arrogant to claim
that they *do* know. You certainly can't know through the agency of a
document so contradictory and obviously flawed as the *bible*!

What does the "progression" from the old to the new testament have to do
with your wife's remission from illness - based upon your supplication(s)?


Is that a fair summary of your position?

Now, most non-theistic types will (presumably) rely on agencies such
as medicine, dentistry, pharmaceuticals and the well-documented
ability of the body to heal itself without external intervention.

Yes, I know about all of those, been using them for years.

Of course you have. We all have.


It seems that they experience relief at the same rate as those who
use prayer.

Most prayer doesn't seem to help much in my experience. The Bible is
full of many that prayed without results and few that got Gods
attention and he answered them. If you get real serious with God
then prayer will yeild awesome results.

Evidence?
Anything? At all? That is, proof that the happening occurred *because* of
the prayer?


Either god is favouring the non-believers with the same deliberation
with which he favours the faithful (the supplicants),

Wrong yet again...

Please elaborate.



...or...

maybe the whole "god" thing doesn't enter into the argument at all.

All (well -*most*) of us have witnessed remissions and cures and
reliefs that have been visited upon non-believers. If they happen
to *you*, Roger, then they are miracles! Gifts from God. If they
happen to a non-believer, then they are... what? Just the natural
progression of the functioning of the human body?

Wrong again, I've had all kinds of natural healings my whole life
that I don't considers miracles. Why do you respond when you don't
know what you're talking about?

You miss my point.
We have all experienced remissions exclusive of prayer. I have, you have.

How do you *know* when god is involved in the remission?

(I know... you "just know". Right?)



Roger, you don't need to invent a "god" to explain things. Not
anymore.

Great, explain how someone has problems with wisdom teeth that need
to be extracted one minute and the next minute all problems with them
are gone.

Too many variables. I am not a clinician. Who diagnosed the need for
surgical removal? I could guess though - a hysterical patient who
characteristically overstates a problem, whinges, whines, carries on -
performs so as to attract attention and sympathy, and then forgets to carry
on after a while. The pain recedes - as it does, naturally, without divine
intervention, then GLORY BE! A divine cure!

I have witnessed cures which could be discribed by your ilk as "divine" or
"miraculous". Remission from testicular cancer; reversal of unexplained
blindness... Neither of these were the results of prayer.


Sometimes, when I'm facing stainless steel, the tool chatters and
I'm left with a "stippled" finish. On other occasions, with very
similar setups, there is no chatter and the finish is mirror-smooth.

Should I praise the Lord for the fine finish, and pray for more of
the same, or should I seek to find the source of the chatter?

Did the Lord tell you to machine the stainless steel? Did he tell
you what setup, speeds, and feeds to use?

Of course not. Does that mean that I cannot pray to him for assistance? Do
I have to forsee all contingencies in life? May I only pray about things
that he has instructed me to do?
Did the Lord instruct your wife how to conduct her life in order not to
contract her illness?
Oh wait - yes, of course he did. Sorry, I forgot.

.... I can match
*every* one of your "miracles" with a non-miraculous event of
similar import.

No you can't.

Yes I can.

...Sure there a cases where healing takes place over time
but natural healing doesn't normally happen instantly. Perhaps you
can match a 3 minute healing with a 3 day or 3 week natural healing,
but that isn't realy a match.

It'll do for me - if it works.
How on earth do you define how long "healing" takes? Its a meaningless
measure for a binary state.

Tell me Roger.... do you have any documented cases (not third-hand myths) of
god healing a man with an amputated limb? Growing back a new one
instantaneously, I mean.

No?

What does god have against amputees?


But keep praying if it makes you feel better.
(That's all it does.)

Yes, when God miracously heals someone it does make them feel better.


No, that's not what I said.
If the *prayer* makes you feel better, then so be it.



Faith is the key, faith in God. Abraham recieved his promise from
God by faith. Moses was given the law yet he never entered into the
promised land. You can't get there by obeying Gods law. Joshua led
the people into the promised land and they had to take posession of
it by faith. You can have faith in what you see, what the doctor
tells you, what you feel like. Faith in God is believing the word of
God over what you see and feel.

Yes. A brave admission, Roger.
Faith in God is indeed believing in that which your reasoning and your
senses tell you is absurd.

Just don't expect anyone to respect such faith. Its no more worthy of
respect than faith in unicorns and fairies.

We just don't need it anymore.

Well - most of us.


RogerN

Cheers to you.

--
Jeff R.