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Default OT - God, then and now


"Al Patrick" wrote in message
ge...
John Kunkel wrote:

Which begs the question....Why did such an omnipotent god need to go
through the drill of the great flood when a snap of the fingers
(figuratively) would have wiped out the entire population of the Earth
except Noah's family? Why have Noah build an ark when a snap of the
fingers would have made it appear?


Supposedly it took Noah 120 years to build that ark and he was
preaching/testifying to his generation at that time. God was giving that
generation 120 years to repent of all their evils, even while knowing
beforehand that none of them would.


So even the aboriginals in lands that never got "the word" were condemned to
die for not "repenting" something they knew nothing of?

The only thing more pathetic than the fairy tale known as Christianity are
those who believe it.


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John Kunkel wrote:
"Al Patrick" wrote in message
ge...
John Kunkel wrote:
Which begs the question....Why did such an omnipotent god need to go
through the drill of the great flood when a snap of the fingers
(figuratively) would have wiped out the entire population of the Earth
except Noah's family? Why have Noah build an ark when a snap of the
fingers would have made it appear?

Supposedly it took Noah 120 years to build that ark and he was
preaching/testifying to his generation at that time. God was giving that
generation 120 years to repent of all their evils, even while knowing
beforehand that none of them would.


So even the aboriginals in lands that never got "the word" were condemned to
die for not "repenting" something they knew nothing of?

The only thing more pathetic than the fairy tale known as Christianity are
those who believe it.



That's probably what the jokers of Noah's day said about him. "Hey, That old fool building
that big what-ch-ma-call-it over yonder says it's going to rain. Thar aint never been no
rain. Fact are we don't even know nutin about no rain. But he say it gonna rain, whatever
that means. HARHARHAR, HEHE! LAUGH, LAUGH!"

And so it was. Was one party at Noah's expense. The laughing stock of the region, "until
the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."
Matthew 24:39

Have fun. Poke fun. Remember it all when it's too late! :-) Bye, Bye!
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"Al Patrick" wrote in message
unty...
John Kunkel wrote:
"Al Patrick" wrote in message
ge...
John Kunkel wrote:
Which begs the question....Why did such an omnipotent god need to go
through the drill of the great flood when a snap of the fingers
(figuratively) would have wiped out the entire population of the Earth
except Noah's family? Why have Noah build an ark when a snap of the
fingers would have made it appear?

Supposedly it took Noah 120 years to build that ark and he was
preaching/testifying to his generation at that time. God was giving that
generation 120 years to repent of all their evils, even while knowing
beforehand that none of them would.


So even the aboriginals in lands that never got "the word" were condemned
to die for not "repenting" something they knew nothing of?

The only thing more pathetic than the fairy tale known as Christianity
are those who believe it.


That's probably what the jokers of Noah's day said about him. "Hey, That
old fool building that big what-ch-ma-call-it over yonder says it's going
to rain. Thar aint never been no rain. Fact are we don't even know nutin
about no rain. But he say it gonna rain, whatever that means. HARHARHAR,
HEHE! LAUGH, LAUGH!"

And so it was. Was one party at Noah's expense. The laughing stock of
the region, "until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also
the coming of the Son of man be." Matthew 24:39

Have fun. Poke fun. Remember it all when it's too late! :-) Bye, Bye!


Al, I have no problem with your beliefs, and I go out of my way to be
tolerant of religions, whether or not I know anything about them. But
there's one thing you should be aware of when you start something like this
in an open group: There is only one reason that anyone starts a conversation
asserting their religious beliefs, and that is that their confidence in
their beliefs needs some shoring up. They'll start with a provocative post
for the express purpose -- the only purpose -- of starting an argument so
they can knock down opposing views with practiced put-downs and gottchas.

You must be pretty shaky in what you believe, or there would be no reason in
the world to grandstand about it here. People who are secure in their
beliefs might proselytize, but they would never start off with a
provocation.

--
Ed Huntress


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"Al Patrick" wrote in message
unty...

Whoops, sorry, Al. I had you confused with Roger. He started this nonsense.

--
Ed Huntress


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On Mon, 27 Oct 2008 16:44:04 -0400, Al Patrick wrote:


That's probably what the jokers of Noah's day said about him. "Hey, That old fool building
that big what-ch-ma-call-it over yonder says it's going to rain. Thar aint never been no
rain. Fact are we don't even know nutin about no rain. But he say it gonna rain, whatever
that means. HARHARHAR, HEHE! LAUGH, LAUGH!"

And so it was. Was one party at Noah's expense. The laughing stock of the region, "until
the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."
Matthew 24:39

Have fun. Poke fun. Remember it all when it's too late! :-) Bye, Bye!


This sounds an awful lot like a story I like:

http://www.jhuger.com/kisshank.php


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On Mon, 27 Oct 2008 17:23:57 -0500, Terry
wrote:

On Mon, 27 Oct 2008 16:44:04 -0400, Al Patrick wrote:


That's probably what the jokers of Noah's day said about him. "Hey, That old fool building
that big what-ch-ma-call-it over yonder says it's going to rain. Thar aint never been no
rain. Fact are we don't even know nutin about no rain. But he say it gonna rain, whatever
that means. HARHARHAR, HEHE! LAUGH, LAUGH!"

And so it was. Was one party at Noah's expense. The laughing stock of the region, "until
the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."
Matthew 24:39

Have fun. Poke fun. Remember it all when it's too late! :-) Bye, Bye!


Poor old Al Can't read the one book he is allowed to so don't be to
hard on him.

His hero is a drunken layabout that boinked his daughters (yes it is
in the book) and the first thing he did when he finished his boat ride
was plant more grape vines as he was getting low on wine. And that is
the best his magic friend could come up with for the best of mankind.
He seems to think it is ok to drown innocent children to save this
drunk so you can see that the man only has one oar in the water.

And Al:
There was no flood, get over it.
The earth is billions of years old, get over it.
Your momma lied to you, suck it up.
It is just a book about your magic friend, not great, not bad, just a
book that is missing most of its chapters and edited and written by
ordinary men. Nothing more.
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"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message
news

"RogerN" wrote in message
m...

"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message
. net...

snip
Someone testifying to me that they have seen the Statue of Liberty has
nothing to gain by having me believe them, or not. You can't make the same
claim with your example. Quite the contrary, people like you have bilked
the masses out of their possessions and minds as long as time has existed,
using their personal connection with the god of their choosing as the pry
bar. You have an agenda-----the guy that may have seen the Statue
likely has not, and has little to gain.


I have an agenda! I thought since God can create the whole universe and
everything in it, that perhaps he could do even a bigger miracle and give
liberals common sense. Perhaps it was too much to ask.

RogerN


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Ed, I didn't start the thread a bit more than you did. We both just saw fit to jump in
and speak up. Does that make us equal? ;-)

========

Ed Huntress wrote:
"Al Patrick" wrote in message
unty...
John Kunkel wrote:
"Al Patrick" wrote in message
ge...
John Kunkel wrote:
Which begs the question....Why did such an omnipotent god need to go
through the drill of the great flood when a snap of the fingers
(figuratively) would have wiped out the entire population of the Earth
except Noah's family? Why have Noah build an ark when a snap of the
fingers would have made it appear?

Supposedly it took Noah 120 years to build that ark and he was
preaching/testifying to his generation at that time. God was giving that
generation 120 years to repent of all their evils, even while knowing
beforehand that none of them would.
So even the aboriginals in lands that never got "the word" were condemned
to die for not "repenting" something they knew nothing of?

The only thing more pathetic than the fairy tale known as Christianity
are those who believe it.

That's probably what the jokers of Noah's day said about him. "Hey, That
old fool building that big what-ch-ma-call-it over yonder says it's going
to rain. Thar aint never been no rain. Fact are we don't even know nutin
about no rain. But he say it gonna rain, whatever that means. HARHARHAR,
HEHE! LAUGH, LAUGH!"

And so it was. Was one party at Noah's expense. The laughing stock of
the region, "until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also
the coming of the Son of man be." Matthew 24:39

Have fun. Poke fun. Remember it all when it's too late! :-) Bye, Bye!


Al, I have no problem with your beliefs, and I go out of my way to be
tolerant of religions, whether or not I know anything about them. But
there's one thing you should be aware of when you start something like this
in an open group: There is only one reason that anyone starts a conversation
asserting their religious beliefs, and that is that their confidence in
their beliefs needs some shoring up. They'll start with a provocative post
for the express purpose -- the only purpose -- of starting an argument so
they can knock down opposing views with practiced put-downs and gottchas.

You must be pretty shaky in what you believe, or there would be no reason in
the world to grandstand about it here. People who are secure in their
beliefs might proselytize, but they would never start off with a
provocation.

--
Ed Huntress


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Ed Huntress wrote:
"Al Patrick" wrote in message
unty...

Whoops, sorry, Al. I had you confused with Roger. He started this nonsense.

--
Ed Huntress



Sorry. I wrote the last post just before seeing this one! :-)
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"Alex B. Graham" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 27 Oct 2008 09:18:47 -0400, Al Patrick wrote:



Those who preach "tolerance" the greatest are often the ones with no
tolerance. They want
people to be tolerant of them but they don't chose to be tolerant toward
others. Shame!
Shame!



Pre-****ing-cisely...

Now **** off...


PLONK


I can't stand intolerant people either!

Steve




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"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message
news

"RogerN" wrote in message
m...

"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message
. net...


Nice job of double talk. Surely, you remember when the 747 did exactly as
I mentioned, killing over 500 people, mostly Japanese? They must have
forgotten to pray (or beg) for mercy.


Did God tell the people to get on the plane? Were they on there as a
mission from God? Was God the pilot, mechanic, or anything else to do with
the plane? No, but the thing crashes and you want to blame God!

Where is this God when other people have similar hardships to those you
described, but they didn't receive a windfall in the mail------or didn't
get overtime, but instead maybe lost their jobs, and their house as
well, turning themselves and their young children out in the streets? A
rather vengeful God, wouldn't you say?


Where they trusting God as provider? Sick people that didn't get near
Jesus generally didn't get healed by Jesus. Exceptions being when
someone came to Jesus and asked him to heal someone that was at home
sick.


So what you're saying is that your God is a vengeful God, with whom a
person must beg for mercy?


If a Doctor can cure an illness, but someone with that illness refuses to go
to the Doctor, is it the Doctor's fault that they remain sick? You think
God should just drop blessings on people that aren't looking to him for
them? Should God drag people into Heaven that are kicking and screaming and
don't want to go?


Yes, I've had miracles happen to me and also witnessed them happening to
others. Nothing as good as someone being brought back from the dead but
definately miracles.


Can you describe these "miracles"?


I used to repair office machines on the customers site. If I didn't know
where a customer was located and didn't have an address, I would go to the
city and ask directions, or look up their number and call them for
directions. One time when I had been seeking God I was in prayer as I was
entering a city to go to a customers where I had not been before and I
didn't have an address. My plan was to turn right on the main drag and have
a look, then find a place to ask for directions. As I was entering the city
praying, I thought since I was communicating with the all knowing God, why
not ask him for directions, so I did. I received a "vision" of a road a
couple of blocks past the main drag to the left. I turned on that road,
went several blocks, and there was the place I was trying to find. This
happened one other time. When I would pray for directions, I would either
receive a vision of the correct road to turn on or I would receive nothing.
I never received wrong directions. Another time I was drawing close to God
and received a healing for a skin problem I had for many years. All the
miracles happened as I was trying to get close to God, reading the Bible,
praying, and just trying to spend time with God and with my mind focused on
him.

However I've been living 45 years now and have traveled probably a
million miles but I've never seen the statue of liberty, should I assume
it doesn't exist? Should I assume all the witnesses that have seen the
statue of liberty are simpletons and just making stuff up because they
want me to believe that there is a statue of liberty?


Bad example, one of which you should be ashamed.


I'm just trying to make a point that a person can live their entire life and
not see the statue of liberty or not see miracles from God. In my years of
driving, it has never been in the area of the Statue of Liberty, that's why
I didn't see it. OK, out of your 69 years, how many were spent in a Church
that believes in praying for miracles? Assuming zero, and you wonder why
you haven't seen any miracles?

Do not play mind games with me.

The Statue of Liberty is well documented and visible. It is there for me,
or anyone, to examine. You can not claim the same thing for your God,
nor can you find a majority of people that agree with your assessment.
You can't even provide a shred of evidence there is a God-----you have
ONLY your belief that there is. That's not good enough. I've known
people that think there's a tooth fairy, too, but I have my doubts.

Someone testifying to me that they have seen the Statue of Liberty has
nothing to gain by having me believe them, or not. You can't make the same
claim with your example. Quite the contrary, people like you have bilked
the masses out of their possessions and minds as long as time has existed,
using their personal connection with the god of their choosing as the pry
bar. You have an agenda-----the guy that may have seen the Statue
likely has not, and has little to gain.


And what do I gain if anyone believes me or not? I have no ministry for
anybody to give to. I fix machines in a tire plant and have no income
outside of that. I enjoy metalworking as a hobby and sometimes make a few
dollars at it, but I've never received a penny for any kind of ministry nor
do I wish to. I don't know about the flood, I can only tell what happened
to me, and the results I have received from what seems to me to be God and
lines up perfectly with what the Bible teaches.

Evolution on the other hand, now there's a religion with an agenda.
Evolution makes people believe that they will never have to give account to
God for their actions. They are so desperate to believe this that there
have been many fake missing links. They even found a tooth believed to be
from ancient man, they formed what the skull looked like and everything all
from a single tooth. Then they found another tooth and the jawbone, it was
a tooth from a pig! Funny Huh? Evolutionists are so desperate to hold onto
their religion that they will not allow any other possibilities to be
taught. Like Bill Mahr(on) said all real science accepts evolution. So
anyone that doesn't accept evolution, no mater how much scientific evidence
they have, is not considered to be real science, there's your circular
argument.


If the Bible is true


Yeah! IF. What evidence do you have to support that it is? None of us
can be held responsible for your chosen beliefs, nor should we be held
hostage by them.


Who's saying you are responsible or held hostage for my beliefs? I've just
seen many times when it's brought up the people claim the flood of Noah was
not possible because there isn't enough water. I was pointing out that not
running out, or creation on demand, happens in other places in the Bible and
is reported to still happen today. It seems that most of the people that
see the biggest miracles are missionaries or people being persecuted for
being Christians.

Not on this forum. Park your bible at the curb. If you do not, you
will readily wear out your welcome. If I must tolerate your dribble, then
I must also tolerate the dribble of other sects and "religions". I don't
need that in my life. Would you welcome my posting on a site of your
choosing, trying to steer you away from religion, perhaps to join those of
us that are agnostic? I think not, and I think you'd be highly
offended---just as I am. Knock it off, moron.


I put on the subject that it was off topic and about God, why did you bother
to read or respond to it?

A man I know had a
mother that was dying of cancer (before she had him), the Doctors sent
her home to die as they could not do anything for her. His father heard
that there was a man that prayed for people and they got healed. The
father sent for this person and he came and prayed for this woman that
was nearly dead. The woman got up and the cancer mass fell off of her
body. That's the kind of thing we could use today. If his father had
never heard of anyone that prayed for the sick with results then the
woman would have died like thousands of others do.


And you know this woman? You witnessed the cancer "fall off her body"?
I don't think I've ever encountered a religious person that hasn't a tale
in keeping with yours. Problem is, everyone that tells the tale refers to
a third party, one that is never available to prove the claim.


No, I met her son. She was healed of this cancer before she had him and
he's older than me. God miracously delivered this man out of Romania when
it was a communist country. Him and two others walked out of Romania, past
the guards, dogs, and all following a pillar of light. After he came to the
USA, he had a dream and was told to contact a man to get his family freed
from Romania. I think he said the man was Henry Jackson (A senator or
something like that) or something like that. Now this Romanian man builds
orphanages to help childern.

http://www.redeemthetime.com/


Remember me telling you that words don't do it for me? Not calling you
a liar----just a badly misinformed, misguided, gullible individual that is
prime pray for the charlatans of "religion". They can't get their hooks
in guys like you fast enough. Strangely, such people can see evidence
that can't be refuted that conflicts with what they want to believe, and
conveniently discount the evidence, secure in their little fairytale
world. Not me. Show me (us) proof ---real proof, not the inane tales
you've provided thus far----, or quit wasting the time of the readers of
this forum.

Harold


Yeah, you really got me down, I haven't been to church 5 times in the last
10 years. If the charlatans of religion are after me they'll find their
churches empty and broke.

All I can suggest is check it out for yourself or don't waste your time
reading this kind of messages.

RogerN


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I missed the Staff meeting, but the Memos showed that Gunner Asch
wrote on Mon, 27 Oct 2008 09:42:19 -0700
in rec.crafts.metalworking :
On Mon, 27 Oct 2008 07:59:22 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

I missed the Staff meeting, but the Memos showed that "David R.Birch"
wrote on Sun, 26 Oct 2008 16:50:23 -0600 in
rec.crafts.metalworking :
Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sat, 25 Oct 2008 23:04:30 -0500, Ignoramus3071
wrote:

On 2008-10-26, RogerN wrote:
that wouldn't run out, etc. A new testament example is Jesus feeding 5000
men plus women and children with only a few fish and loaves. Yes, I know
Linux is the modern equivalent of that, giving goodness to millions
for free.

I used to be an agnostic, but by now I made up my mind and am an
atheist.

i

Atheism, just another faith based belief system.


Gunner

Which is why I'm an agnostic pantheist.

Except on Leap Day.

Then I'm a pantheistic agnostic.

David


Have you considered Slag-Blah? It is a philosophy of militant
agnosticism "We don't know, and you don't either!" Because so many
religions contradict the others, they give each religion it's own day
when those Doctrines reign supreme.
It does cause some problems, the calendar is some 17,823 days long
- and they only get paid once a year. But you're vested in the
pension plan after the first quarter.


cheers
pyotr



Where do I sign up??


All I know is that there's a temple on New Hong Kong, near the
space port.

tschus
pyotr

--
pyotr filipivich
"I had just been through hell and must have looked like death warmed
over walking into the saloon, because when I asked the bartender
whether they served zombies he said, ‘Sure, what'll you have?'"
from I Hear America Swinging by Peter DeVries
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"RogerN" wrote in message
m...
snip----

I thought since God can create the whole universe and
everything in it, that perhaps he could do even a bigger miracle and give
liberals common sense. Perhaps it was too much to ask.


Yeah, that's the problem. You THOUGHT. You don't KNOW. When I was a
kid, I thought there was a Santa Claus, an Easter Bunny and the Great
Pumpkin. Alas, I was wrong. Could it be that you, too, are?

Knock it off until you know for sure. None of us care to hear your
personal beliefs. When you have proof you're right, come again. I'll be the
first to listen. Mean time-----beat it.

Harold


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"Lew Hartswick" wrote in message
m...
Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:
Not me. Show me (us) proof ---real proof, not the inane tales you've
provided thus far----, or quit wasting the time of the readers of this
forum.

Harold


Harold, youre "From Missouri". I can tell, so am I :-)
...lew...


Damned right, Lew. :-)

I've seen all too many of these nutcakes that have an agenda that isn't in
my best interest. Why should I assume this dude is any different?

You want to understand religion? What it's really about? Follow the money.
Need I say more?

Harold


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"RogerN" wrote in message
...
snip-----

All I can suggest is check it out for yourself or don't waste your time
reading this kind of messages.

RogerN


Yep! That's what I should have done. I know better than to argue with a
fool. Those observing often can't tell which is which.

I wish you luck with your machining.

Harold




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"Alex B. Graham" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 27 Oct 2008 09:18:47 -0400, Al Patrick wrote:



Those who preach "tolerance" the greatest are often the ones with no
tolerance. They want
people to be tolerant of them but they don't chose to be tolerant toward
others. Shame!
Shame!



Pre-****ing-cisely...

Now **** off...


PLONK


GRIN!

Harold


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"Al Patrick" wrote in message
unty...
John Kunkel wrote:
"Al Patrick" wrote in message
ge...
John Kunkel wrote:
Which begs the question....Why did such an omnipotent god need to go
through the drill of the great flood when a snap of the fingers
(figuratively) would have wiped out the entire population of the Earth
except Noah's family? Why have Noah build an ark when a snap of the
fingers would have made it appear?

Supposedly it took Noah 120 years to build that ark and he was
preaching/testifying to his generation at that time. God was giving that
generation 120 years to repent of all their evils, even while knowing
beforehand that none of them would.


So even the aboriginals in lands that never got "the word" were condemned
to die for not "repenting" something they knew nothing of?

The only thing more pathetic than the fairy tale known as Christianity
are those who believe it.


That's probably what the jokers of Noah's day said about him. "Hey, That
old fool building that big what-ch-ma-call-it over yonder says it's going
to rain. Thar aint never been no rain. Fact are we don't even know nutin
about no rain. But he say it gonna rain, whatever that means. HARHARHAR,
HEHE! LAUGH, LAUGH!"

And so it was. Was one party at Noah's expense. The laughing stock of
the region, "until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also
the coming of the Son of man be." Matthew 24:39


And you know this to be true by what means?
Harold


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On Mon, 27 Oct 2008 21:16:15 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

I missed the Staff meeting, but the Memos showed that Gunner Asch
wrote on Mon, 27 Oct 2008 09:42:19 -0700
in rec.crafts.metalworking :
On Mon, 27 Oct 2008 07:59:22 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

I missed the Staff meeting, but the Memos showed that "David R.Birch"
wrote on Sun, 26 Oct 2008 16:50:23 -0600 in
rec.crafts.metalworking :
Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sat, 25 Oct 2008 23:04:30 -0500, Ignoramus3071
wrote:

On 2008-10-26, RogerN wrote:
that wouldn't run out, etc. A new testament example is Jesus feeding 5000
men plus women and children with only a few fish and loaves. Yes, I know
Linux is the modern equivalent of that, giving goodness to millions
for free.

I used to be an agnostic, but by now I made up my mind and am an
atheist.

i

Atheism, just another faith based belief system.


Gunner

Which is why I'm an agnostic pantheist.

Except on Leap Day.

Then I'm a pantheistic agnostic.

David

Have you considered Slag-Blah? It is a philosophy of militant
agnosticism "We don't know, and you don't either!" Because so many
religions contradict the others, they give each religion it's own day
when those Doctrines reign supreme.
It does cause some problems, the calendar is some 17,823 days long
- and they only get paid once a year. But you're vested in the
pension plan after the first quarter.


cheers
pyotr



Where do I sign up??


All I know is that there's a temple on New Hong Kong, near the
space port.

tschus
pyotr



But the "Velvet Fist" has much nicer people.................

Bob
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"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message
. net...

"RogerN" wrote in message
m...
snip----

I thought since God can create the whole universe and
everything in it, that perhaps he could do even a bigger miracle and give
liberals common sense. Perhaps it was too much to ask.


Yeah, that's the problem. You THOUGHT. You don't KNOW. When I was a
kid, I thought there was a Santa Claus, an Easter Bunny and the Great
Pumpkin. Alas, I was wrong. Could it be that you, too, are?

Knock it off until you know for sure. None of us care to hear your
personal beliefs. When you have proof you're right, come again. I'll be
the first to listen. Mean time-----beat it.

Harold


It depends on what you consider knowing for sure. The Biblical "proofs" are
God confirming his word with signs and wonders, aka miracles. Jesus told a
story about a man that went to hell and he asked God to bring him back from
the dead so he could warn others, thinking returning from the dead would be
proof. Jesus said that if the people won't believe based on the evidences
they already have, then they won't believe even though someone is brought
back from the dead. Jesus was brought back from the dead, many that didn't
believe examined the evidence and then believed. Many set out to prove the
gospel to be wrong and now believe it.

So now there is some idiot telling you that you can live eternally and have
a better life and better health than you have now. Would you like that if
it were true? I get the feeling that you don't want it to be true, in other
words I think you have an agenda too.

I don't think that there's anything that I could have that you would
consider proof. If I sat with God and spoke to him face to face, that
wouldn't prove it to you. What miracle could I witness or experience that
would be considered proof to you? You're a "show me" guy and the only way
you'll see it is by being in the area when some kind of miracle happens.

On Topic,
Anything interesting going on with you in the metalworking world? (Tools,
toys, projects, learning anything new and/or interesting?)

RogerN


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Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:
"Al Patrick" wrote in message
unty...
John Kunkel wrote:
"Al Patrick" wrote in message
ge...
John Kunkel wrote:
Which begs the question....Why did such an omnipotent god need to go
through the drill of the great flood when a snap of the fingers
(figuratively) would have wiped out the entire population of the Earth
except Noah's family? Why have Noah build an ark when a snap of the
fingers would have made it appear?

Supposedly it took Noah 120 years to build that ark and he was
preaching/testifying to his generation at that time. God was giving that
generation 120 years to repent of all their evils, even while knowing
beforehand that none of them would.
So even the aboriginals in lands that never got "the word" were condemned
to die for not "repenting" something they knew nothing of?

The only thing more pathetic than the fairy tale known as Christianity
are those who believe it.

That's probably what the jokers of Noah's day said about him. "Hey, That
old fool building that big what-ch-ma-call-it over yonder says it's going
to rain. Thar aint never been no rain. Fact are we don't even know nutin
about no rain. But he say it gonna rain, whatever that means. HARHARHAR,
HEHE! LAUGH, LAUGH!"

And so it was. Was one party at Noah's expense. The laughing stock of
the region, "until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also
the coming of the Son of man be." Matthew 24:39


And you know this to be true by what means?
Harold



Archeology proves a great flood.

Far wiser men than I (and I suspect you) have had great things to say about the Bible,
it's accuracy, it's indestructibility, etc. Kings have tried to eliminate it. Even now
there are areas of the world where Christianity is trying to be wiped out. I suspect
there are those in America attempting to do the same thing, but in different ways from
some other areas.

The Bible, God's Word, has proven to be right over and over again. Google "Noah's Ark
Found" and you'll find much of interest. Actually, there's some discussion on Fox News
here, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2MNCkyg0ik I suspect it WILL be found and somehow
will be proven to be Noah's ark.

It's said that the dimensions / proportions / relationships found in the Bible concerning
the size of Noah's ark are the standard for most large vessels of today. I wonder how he
was able to determine the optimum relationships for a stable sailing vessel. :-)

Here's a tribute to the Bible: http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/bstudy/tribute.htm

Google "Archeology and the Bible" for some other interesting reading.

Foxe's Book of Martyrs tells of the price many were willing to pay for their faith in
Jesus Christ. Of course you can point out that suicide bombers in Iraq also give their
lives for their faith.

One of the best sources for the accuracy of the Bible is the changed life. There are
millions around the world who were drunken sots, wife beaters, etc. etc. etc. UNTIL they
decided to call upon the Creator God who gave His only begotten Son Jesus Christ for their
sins. They were instantly changed into decent moral productive citizens. He can do it
for all who will in sincerity call upon Him and serve Him.


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I missed the Staff meeting, but the Memos showed that Bob
wrote on Mon, 27 Oct 2008 22:48:34 -0700 in
rec.crafts.metalworking :
On Mon, 27 Oct 2008 21:16:15 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

I missed the Staff meeting, but the Memos showed that Gunner Asch
wrote on Mon, 27 Oct 2008 09:42:19 -0700 in rec.crafts.metalworking :
On Mon, 27 Oct 2008 07:59:22 -0700, pyotr filipivich wrote:
I missed the Staff meeting, but the Memos showed that "David wrote on Sun, 26 Oct 2008 16:50:23 -0600 in rec.crafts.metalworking :
Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sat, 25 Oct 2008 23:04:30 -0500, Ignoramus3071 wrote:
On 2008-10-26, RogerN wrote:
that wouldn't run out, etc. A new testament example is Jesus feeding 5000
men plus women and children with only a few fish and loaves. Yes, I know
Linux is the modern equivalent of that, giving goodness to millions
for free.

I used to be an agnostic, but by now I made up my mind and am an
atheist.
Atheism, just another faith based belief system.

Gunner

Which is why I'm an agnostic pantheist.

Except on Leap Day.

Then I'm a pantheistic agnostic.

David

Have you considered Slag-Blah? It is a philosophy of militant
agnosticism "We don't know, and you don't either!" Because so many
religions contradict the others, they give each religion it's own day
when those Doctrines reign supreme.
It does cause some problems, the calendar is some 17,823 days long
- and they only get paid once a year. But you're vested in the
pension plan after the first quarter.

Where do I sign up??


All I know is that there's a temple on New Hong Kong, near the
space port.

tschus
pyotr



But the "Velvet Fist" has much nicer people.................


Well, customer service....

Just be forewarned if Lou offers to let you use her shower. She
_is_ an exhibitionist.

I'll be having a drink at Al's.


pyotr
--
pyotr filipivich
"I had just been through hell and must have looked like death warmed
over walking into the saloon, because when I asked the bartender
whether they served zombies he said, ‘Sure, what'll you have?'"
from I Hear America Swinging by Peter DeVries
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On Mon, 27 Oct 2008 21:16:15 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

I missed the Staff meeting, but the Memos showed that Gunner Asch
wrote on Mon, 27 Oct 2008 09:42:19 -0700
in rec.crafts.metalworking :
On Mon, 27 Oct 2008 07:59:22 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

I missed the Staff meeting, but the Memos showed that "David R.Birch"
wrote on Sun, 26 Oct 2008 16:50:23 -0600 in
rec.crafts.metalworking :
Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sat, 25 Oct 2008 23:04:30 -0500, Ignoramus3071
wrote:

On 2008-10-26, RogerN wrote:
that wouldn't run out, etc. A new testament example is Jesus feeding 5000
men plus women and children with only a few fish and loaves. Yes, I know
Linux is the modern equivalent of that, giving goodness to millions
for free.

I used to be an agnostic, but by now I made up my mind and am an
atheist.

i

Atheism, just another faith based belief system.


Gunner

Which is why I'm an agnostic pantheist.

Except on Leap Day.

Then I'm a pantheistic agnostic.

David

Have you considered Slag-Blah? It is a philosophy of militant
agnosticism "We don't know, and you don't either!" Because so many
religions contradict the others, they give each religion it's own day
when those Doctrines reign supreme.
It does cause some problems, the calendar is some 17,823 days long
- and they only get paid once a year. But you're vested in the
pension plan after the first quarter.


cheers
pyotr



Where do I sign up??


All I know is that there's a temple on New Hong Kong, near the
space port.

tschus
pyotr



Across the street from Zo^!*'s Bar and Bank?

Gunner

Whenever a Liberal utters the term "Common Sense approach"....grab your
wallet, your ass, and your guns because the sombitch is about to do
something damned nasty to all three of them.
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On Tue, 28 Oct 2008 10:01:55 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

I missed the Staff meeting, but the Memos showed that Bob
wrote on Mon, 27 Oct 2008 22:48:34 -0700 in
rec.crafts.metalworking :
On Mon, 27 Oct 2008 21:16:15 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

I missed the Staff meeting, but the Memos showed that Gunner Asch
wrote on Mon, 27 Oct 2008 09:42:19 -0700 in rec.crafts.metalworking :
On Mon, 27 Oct 2008 07:59:22 -0700, pyotr filipivich wrote:
I missed the Staff meeting, but the Memos showed that "David wrote on Sun, 26 Oct 2008 16:50:23 -0600 in rec.crafts.metalworking :
Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sat, 25 Oct 2008 23:04:30 -0500, Ignoramus3071 wrote:
On 2008-10-26, RogerN wrote:
that wouldn't run out, etc. A new testament example is Jesus feeding 5000
men plus women and children with only a few fish and loaves. Yes, I know
Linux is the modern equivalent of that, giving goodness to millions
for free.

I used to be an agnostic, but by now I made up my mind and am an
atheist.
Atheism, just another faith based belief system.

Gunner

Which is why I'm an agnostic pantheist.

Except on Leap Day.

Then I'm a pantheistic agnostic.

David

Have you considered Slag-Blah? It is a philosophy of militant
agnosticism "We don't know, and you don't either!" Because so many
religions contradict the others, they give each religion it's own day
when those Doctrines reign supreme.
It does cause some problems, the calendar is some 17,823 days long
- and they only get paid once a year. But you're vested in the
pension plan after the first quarter.

Where do I sign up??

All I know is that there's a temple on New Hong Kong, near the
space port.

tschus
pyotr



But the "Velvet Fist" has much nicer people.................


Well, customer service....

Just be forewarned if Lou offers to let you use her shower. She
_is_ an exhibitionist.

I'll be having a drink at Al's.


pyotr


Have an ion sucker on me!
Bob
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"Al Patrick" wrote in message
news

The Bible, God's Word, has proven to be right over and over again.


Your dictionary must have a different definition of "proven".


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John Kunkel wrote:
"Al Patrick" wrote in message
news
The Bible, God's Word, has proven to be right over and over again.


Your dictionary must have a different definition of "proven".



The Bible required the first septic system. They were to take a shovel and go without the
camp and bury the stuff.

Where do you think many of the U.S. laws came from?....The Bible. Perhaps that's why some
judges try so hard to keep from enforcing them. There are exceptions. The Bible
basically required restitution or execution. If we had that today we'd have a lot less
crime, a lot less criminals and a lot less folks in jail. Many judges now want to give
criminals early retirement.....at tax payer expense. That's what a life sentence is.

Genesis mentions oil in the middle east....and it was found there.

It also mentions Noah's ark landing on the mountains of Ararat and I expect it to be found
on that mountain chain, if it hasn't already.

It also mentions a very powerful and very ruthless government that will rule the world in
the latter days. I expect that has something to do with the world economies currently
under such stress. The only way another kingdom can be set up is to tear down those
existing. Read you paper and watch it happen. It will be of brief duration and Jesus
Christ is coming back to kick that kingdom -- as "almighty" and powerful as they think
they are -- out of the way and set up His own kingdom. For this reason I don't get
terribly alarmed when I see currencies failing and nations falling. Our stock market
hasn't seen bottom yet. Look for it to go down to at least $7500. We're going to see the
government get into much more than they're in now -- and it will still decline. He set up
a set of laws and we are far from obeying them. Hang on. It's going to be a rough ride,
especially seeming so to those whose trust is in the wrong place.

Have a good day.


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You poor *******.

Your are seriously under educated. Grade six good enough for your
pappa so good enough for you ???

Where in the world did you come up with the utter crap that the flood
is proven in the earth records. Nothing could be farther from the
truth.

Even the dumbest **** to walk the face of the earth, that was able to
read a real book and not a fantasy book, could see the folly in your
thought process.

Let me guess, you live within 500 miles of Oklahoma, Bubba or Cletus
or what ever your middle name is.

How do you still manage to stand up and navigate through life, having
no spine or vision.



On Tue, 28 Oct 2008 15:18:37 -0400, Al Patrick wrote:

John Kunkel wrote:
"Al Patrick" wrote in message
news
The Bible, God's Word, has proven to be right over and over again.


Your dictionary must have a different definition of "proven".



The Bible required the first septic system. They were to take a shovel and go without the
camp and bury the stuff.

Where do you think many of the U.S. laws came from?....The Bible. Perhaps that's why some
judges try so hard to keep from enforcing them. There are exceptions. The Bible
basically required restitution or execution. If we had that today we'd have a lot less
crime, a lot less criminals and a lot less folks in jail. Many judges now want to give
criminals early retirement.....at tax payer expense. That's what a life sentence is.

Genesis mentions oil in the middle east....and it was found there.

It also mentions Noah's ark landing on the mountains of Ararat and I expect it to be found
on that mountain chain, if it hasn't already.

It also mentions a very powerful and very ruthless government that will rule the world in
the latter days. I expect that has something to do with the world economies currently
under such stress. The only way another kingdom can be set up is to tear down those
existing. Read you paper and watch it happen. It will be of brief duration and Jesus
Christ is coming back to kick that kingdom -- as "almighty" and powerful as they think
they are -- out of the way and set up His own kingdom. For this reason I don't get
terribly alarmed when I see currencies failing and nations falling. Our stock market
hasn't seen bottom yet. Look for it to go down to at least $7500. We're going to see the
government get into much more than they're in now -- and it will still decline. He set up
a set of laws and we are far from obeying them. Hang on. It's going to be a rough ride,
especially seeming so to those whose trust is in the wrong place.

Have a good day.

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"Al Patrick" wrote in message
y...
John Kunkel wrote:
"Al Patrick" wrote in message
news
The Bible, God's Word, has proven to be right over and over again.


Your dictionary must have a different definition of "proven".


The Bible required the first septic system. They were to take a shovel and
go without the camp and bury the stuff.


A septic system is where your drivel belongs.


Where do you think many of the U.S. laws came from?....The Bible.


That and the rest are your ideas of "proven"? Whenever the word proof is
used in reference to the Bible you have to realize that so-called proof only
impresses those with a predisposition to believe, for skeptics the
definition of proof is quite a bit more stringent.


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Didn't you know that fossils of aquatic life have been found high up on
mountains? What an idiotic moron you are! Your religion of idiots is
probably evolution. Show just one example of any life that has not had some
sort of a parent. Come on, one example, anywhere from anytime. You can't
come up with anything because there isn't one and science knows it, you
stupid *******.

You evolutionists get all upset when someone challenges your religion. I
can act almost as stupid as you but I'm trying to imitate you in the above
reply, it comes naturally for you. How'd the fish fossils get up on the
tops of mountains? Flying fish?

Face the facts, the reason evolutionists get so upset when someone raises a
challenge to their theory is because they know it's really only a religion
and can't stand up to a challenge. Microevolution is Scientific fact,
macroevolution is a religious theory that you want to believe.

RogerN


"Dave C" wrote in message
...
You poor *******.

Your are seriously under educated. Grade six good enough for your
pappa so good enough for you ???

Where in the world did you come up with the utter crap that the flood
is proven in the earth records. Nothing could be farther from the
truth.

Even the dumbest **** to walk the face of the earth, that was able to
read a real book and not a fantasy book, could see the folly in your
thought process.

Let me guess, you live within 500 miles of Oklahoma, Bubba or Cletus
or what ever your middle name is.

How do you still manage to stand up and navigate through life, having
no spine or vision.



On Tue, 28 Oct 2008 15:18:37 -0400, Al Patrick wrote:



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On Topic,
Anything interesting going on with you in the metalworking world? (Tools,
toys, projects, learning anything new and/or interesting?)
RogerN


Nah, we're just persecuting retards.

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It is pretty simple is you had gone past grade seven you would know
about plate tectonics. Live in the mountains and it is very obvious
how it uplifts and bends the crust on the collision zones. IE the
entire west coast of both Americas. You would know ifin ya had made
it past grade seven. Even the strict Catholic, Anglican and Orthodox
churches has figured this one out. Get with the program.

The soup of life (DNA etc) is fairly easy to create. You, in your
statement that all present forms of life come from parents is true. It
is fairly easy to use mitochondria DNA to trace most human life back
to the branch we took from the tree of life. Hate to break it to you
but eve was black and lived in Africa. She was under four feet tall
and not much to look at.

BTW for all extensive purposes natural selection is a fact. You can
find all about it in them thar big buildings full of those godless
books.

Maybe you aint got none of them thar thins in yar neck o the woods but
we be callin them libarries.

Them thins will be teachin yal darn nar anythin ifin ya can read.

Time you stepped of your front porch and took the blinders off.

BTW God is the theory with zero proven facts.





On Tue, 28 Oct 2008 18:39:54 -0500, "RogerN"
wrote:

Didn't you know that fossils of aquatic life have been found high up on
mountains? What an idiotic moron you are! Your religion of idiots is
probably evolution. Show just one example of any life that has not had some
sort of a parent. Come on, one example, anywhere from anytime. You can't
come up with anything because there isn't one and science knows it, you
stupid *******.

You evolutionists get all upset when someone challenges your religion. I
can act almost as stupid as you but I'm trying to imitate you in the above
reply, it comes naturally for you. How'd the fish fossils get up on the
tops of mountains? Flying fish?

Face the facts, the reason evolutionists get so upset when someone raises a
challenge to their theory is because they know it's really only a religion
and can't stand up to a challenge. Microevolution is Scientific fact,
macroevolution is a religious theory that you want to believe.

RogerN


"Dave C" wrote in message
.. .
You poor *******.

Your are seriously under educated. Grade six good enough for your
pappa so good enough for you ???

Where in the world did you come up with the utter crap that the flood
is proven in the earth records. Nothing could be farther from the
truth.

Even the dumbest **** to walk the face of the earth, that was able to
read a real book and not a fantasy book, could see the folly in your
thought process.

Let me guess, you live within 500 miles of Oklahoma, Bubba or Cletus
or what ever your middle name is.

How do you still manage to stand up and navigate through life, having
no spine or vision.



On Tue, 28 Oct 2008 15:18:37 -0400, Al Patrick wrote:




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On Tue, 28 Oct 2008 17:45:57 -0700, "Stupendous Man"
wrote:

On Topic,
Anything interesting going on with you in the metalworking world? (Tools,
toys, projects, learning anything new and/or interesting?)
RogerN


Nah, we're just persecuting retards.



You have to admit it is kind of fun when they are too dumb to know it.

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"Dave C" wrote in message
...
It is pretty simple is you had gone past grade seven you would know
about plate tectonics. Live in the mountains and it is very obvious
how it uplifts and bends the crust on the collision zones. IE the
entire west coast of both Americas. You would know ifin ya had made
it past grade seven. Even the strict Catholic, Anglican and Orthodox
churches has figured this one out. Get with the program.


So, what are now mountains used to be under water, right? So, before the
mountains rose out of the water, what would it be called when the whole
earth was under water? A global flood, you're right! You win a lifetime
supply of rice-a-roni, just pay $24.95/box S&H.

Genesis Chapter1
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face
of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

See, as early a Genesis Chapter 1 verse 2 they knew the mountains were under
the water.

Wait a minute, here comes the plate tectonics you mentioned

9 ¶ And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto
one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

The soup of life (DNA etc) is fairly easy to create. You, in your
statement that all present forms of life come from parents is true. It
is fairly easy to use mitochondria DNA to trace most human life back
to the branch we took from the tree of life. Hate to break it to you
but eve was black and lived in Africa. She was under four feet tall
and not much to look at.


Wow, is this like the tooth that scientists formed an ancient man skull for
and later found out it was a tooth from a pig? It's amazing how they can
make up, err, I mean figure out all that detail just from some DNA evidence.
Does science also know the color of her shoes? Since she was the first and
only one of this species, who did she reproduce with? I'm glad I didn't get
any of that education. In my neck of the woods, we use that stuff you've
been fed as fertilizer. Since the soup if fairly easy to create, perhaps
you could create some and create a living cell from it? Or take a complete
living cell and produce a more complicated life form without using a more
complicated life form after taking the complete living cell, DNA and all.
Can science make a frog using frog blood cells and the soup of life? I
didn't think so.

BTW, one of the top authors of evolution books in them libraries you mention
is Richard Dawkins. Ben Stein made a move called "Expelled, No Intelligence
Allowed" or something like that. He interviewed Richard Dawkins asking
questions and Richard Dawkins thought perhaps Aliens from another planet
came to earth and started life here. Then Ben asked him about the origin of
those Aliens and Mr. Dawkins didn't like it very good. Seems them books on
evolution in them libraries you refer to should be somewhere in the Mother
Goose or Dr Seuss sections. If you research the facts, you'll learn that
them books on evolution are just fairy tales for adults made to sound
scientific.

RogerN


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Wow you are seriously uninformed. You should take Al out dancing, you
should hit it off great. I think that you must be poster boy for your
local nut house. (fringe church)

If you can really read, have a look at the following web site. It is
just one of many but it is particularly well organized so even someone
that is terminally stunned could follow it and it covers just about
all the first century goop you spray about.

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/

It does not preach anything but looks at each and EVERY silly concept
you espouse from a detached viewpoint.

It is strictly analytical and has all references to each and every
single one of your silly claims. It even includes your own special
collections of conflicting stories book. You know which one that is,
the one that is missing three quarters of the stories because they
were just too weird to be included.

Enough said, I hope you are not too disappointed that no magic friend
will show up to save you and float your silly ass into the great
whatever magic place you dream about.

I still place bets that you are a rural flatlander. Nothing to
challenge your vision there.

I think you place yourself up in the tree closer to your magic friend
so that when you look down you just see the faces of the poor masses
but from down here we look up and see nothing but ass holes.










On Tue, 28 Oct 2008 21:23:08 -0500, "RogerN"
wrote:


"Dave C" wrote in message
.. .
It is pretty simple is you had gone past grade seven you would know
about plate tectonics. Live in the mountains and it is very obvious
how it uplifts and bends the crust on the collision zones. IE the
entire west coast of both Americas. You would know ifin ya had made
it past grade seven. Even the strict Catholic, Anglican and Orthodox
churches has figured this one out. Get with the program.


So, what are now mountains used to be under water, right? So, before the
mountains rose out of the water, what would it be called when the whole
earth was under water? A global flood, you're right! You win a lifetime
supply of rice-a-roni, just pay $24.95/box S&H.

Genesis Chapter1
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face
of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

See, as early a Genesis Chapter 1 verse 2 they knew the mountains were under
the water.

Wait a minute, here comes the plate tectonics you mentioned

9 ¶ And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto
one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

The soup of life (DNA etc) is fairly easy to create. You, in your
statement that all present forms of life come from parents is true. It
is fairly easy to use mitochondria DNA to trace most human life back
to the branch we took from the tree of life. Hate to break it to you
but eve was black and lived in Africa. She was under four feet tall
and not much to look at.


Wow, is this like the tooth that scientists formed an ancient man skull for
and later found out it was a tooth from a pig? It's amazing how they can
make up, err, I mean figure out all that detail just from some DNA evidence.
Does science also know the color of her shoes? Since she was the first and
only one of this species, who did she reproduce with? I'm glad I didn't get
any of that education. In my neck of the woods, we use that stuff you've
been fed as fertilizer. Since the soup if fairly easy to create, perhaps
you could create some and create a living cell from it? Or take a complete
living cell and produce a more complicated life form without using a more
complicated life form after taking the complete living cell, DNA and all.
Can science make a frog using frog blood cells and the soup of life? I
didn't think so.

BTW, one of the top authors of evolution books in them libraries you mention
is Richard Dawkins. Ben Stein made a move called "Expelled, No Intelligence
Allowed" or something like that. He interviewed Richard Dawkins asking
questions and Richard Dawkins thought perhaps Aliens from another planet
came to earth and started life here. Then Ben asked him about the origin of
those Aliens and Mr. Dawkins didn't like it very good. Seems them books on
evolution in them libraries you refer to should be somewhere in the Mother
Goose or Dr Seuss sections. If you research the facts, you'll learn that
them books on evolution are just fairy tales for adults made to sound
scientific.

RogerN

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"RogerN" wrote in message
m...

"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message
. net...

"RogerN" wrote in message
m...
snip----

I thought since God can create the whole universe and
everything in it, that perhaps he could do even a bigger miracle and
give liberals common sense. Perhaps it was too much to ask.


Yeah, that's the problem. You THOUGHT. You don't KNOW. When I was a
kid, I thought there was a Santa Claus, an Easter Bunny and the Great
Pumpkin. Alas, I was wrong. Could it be that you, too, are?

Knock it off until you know for sure. None of us care to hear your
personal beliefs. When you have proof you're right, come again. I'll be
the first to listen. Mean time-----beat it.

Harold


It depends on what you consider knowing for sure. The Biblical "proofs"
are God confirming his word with signs and wonders, aka miracles.


I've yet to see one, or even talk to anyone that has. I know more than my
share of religious people.

"Miracles" are in the eyes of the beholder. Please remember that even
heathens have gone into remission when riddled with cancer, with cases known
to have survived, even after having been given a prognosis of death. It's
called "things happen". Those that believe translate anything that is out
of the ordinary into a miracle. It generally is not, and can be well
explained by someone with a level head, one not clouded with religious
dogma. I've had every conceivable example put on me as proof of a creator.
None of it is proof of anything aside from the fact that it exists. No
one, not the pope, not you, not anyone, can prove the existence of a
creator. It is a notion created in the minds of those that must have
answers, answers that promise unrealistic things-----such as eternal life.
Sorry----I don't buy it.

Jesus told a story about a man that went to hell and he asked God to bring
him back from the dead so he could warn others, thinking returning from
the dead would be proof. Jesus said that if the people won't believe
based on the evidences they already have, then they won't believe even
though someone is brought back from the dead.


Sigh! Yeah, you say that's what was said, and maybe even someone put it in
print. Were you there to bear witness? Do you believe anything and
everything you read? Did you buy Archie comic books as a youngster?
Spiderman? Grimm's fairy tales? Do you believe them to be true, too?

It's called propaganda. Religious dogma.

Many insist the holocaust didn't happen. While I can't quote the sources,
I'm sure there are documents in place that deny it did. I think it did.
Which do you believe? For me, choosing the side that makes sense makes it
easy. Seeing pictures that would have bordered on the impossible to fake
when they supposedly were created, makes sense. There is tangible evidence
of the holocaust. It has been well documented with evidence that is
available for those that may wish to pursue the issue. That is NOT true of
religion. People have artifacts that are claimed to be religious in nature,
but so far they have been proven to be a hoax, nothing more. As I said,
follow the money.

People tell lies all the time in an effort to sway others to think as they
do. Doesn't make it true------and the masses believing in a fabrication
won't make it true, either. Show me hard evidence.

If I'm to assume you're right----is a Muslim right, too? A mormon? Are
the Catholics on the right path? How about the Orthodox Jews? Are they
all right? The Buddhists? If so, why can't they agree? Didn't God know
enough to have them understand a common message? Maybe-------just
maybe-----each has their own message because it serves their individual
purpose----that of stealing the minds and possessions of their masses.
That make sense. Everyone not agreeing with an entity that is all powerful
and can't communicate his/her message well does not.

Jesus was brought back from the dead, many that didn't
believe examined the evidence and then believed. Many set out to prove
the gospel to be wrong and now believe it.


Again, were you there to bear witness? Isn't that just more religious
dogma? What evidence do you have that it really occurred? You've been
told that its true------and many believe it is. More believe it isn't.
Which party is right? Those that believe try to convince those of us that
don't that we're wrong. Why do you place yourself above those that have a
different perspective? See what's wrong with religious people? They are
intolerant. They must be right. They are the ONLY ones that are right.
Everyone else is wrong. That's nothing new. It's gone on as long as
there's been enough ignorance to believe that there is a supreme being. The
only variation is my god is right, your god is wrong.


So now there is some idiot telling you that you can live eternally and
have a better life and better health than you have now. Would you like
that if it were true? I get the feeling that you don't want it to be
true, in other words I think you have an agenda too.


My agenda is simple. I live my life in the best way I know how. I no longer
do things that give me cause to make excuses-----I don't steal, I don't lie,
and I don't cheat my fellow man. I try to help where and when I can, and I
expect little in return. If there is a creator, it will be a pleasant
surprise, but I have no expectations. When I die, I'll be dead-----I expect
it ends there. Where is my agenda? I have nothing to gain from moving
you away from your position aside from, perhaps, not having to address
boorish posts from people that can't wait to bear their testimony in front
of others.

Doesn't the bible tell you to pray in private? Why must people like you
make public statements about their beliefs? Were it not for your comments,
do you really thing I'd have posted my opinions?

Understand I'm not angry with you-----I simply disagree with you, and am
offended by you, or anyone, that thinks they have the answers to my destiny
when they don't have the answers to their own, in spite of their
protestations to the contrary.

We are gifted with the right to make our own decisions here in the US, and
should be able to get along with those that may not agree with decisions we
make, particularly if they are based on religious dogma, none of which has
been proven to be true. It should not be the basis for a
conversation----and destroys any possible ability for those with different
beliefs to get along. Understand that I have first hand knowledge about
this issue, having been born and raised in Utah, where the religious
atmosphere makes anyone that is not a mormon feel like they are strangers in
their own home town. I tolerated their rudeness for 56 years, and was well
informed that I did not belong.


I don't think that there's anything that I could have that you would
consider proof. If I sat with God and spoke to him face to face, that
wouldn't prove it to you. What miracle could I witness or experience that
would be considered proof to you? You're a "show me" guy and the only way
you'll see it is by being in the area when some kind of miracle happens.


You still don't understand, it's obvious. I don't know you, nor do I
profess to know you. Why would I take your word for something that makes
little or no sense to the majority of people? Proof to me is to bear
witness. Your words, or the words of many, is not enough. I have not
lost sight of the fact that there is much to be gained by those that imply
they have an inside track with a creator. They abuse that claim on a regular
basis---citing TV evangelists as proof. How many of them have been tried
and jailed for fraud? How many of them demand money from the masses, giving
nothing in return aside from lip service?

On Topic,
Anything interesting going on with you in the metalworking world? (Tools,
toys, projects, learning anything new and/or interesting?)


Roger, you have now broached a proper subject, and I thank you for asking.

I have been building our retirement home for a few years, which is not yet
finished. Mean time, my machines have been idle aside from the occasional
use in support of the house building project. However, I recently took
possession of a HAAS CNC mill, a toolroom model. It has no tool changer, and
I am not experienced in the least with CNC operation, having worked my
career as a manual machinist/toolmaker, and making the decision to avoid
getting involved with CNC. That's a decision I now regret, but I will
attempt to get caught up to some degree, and will likely purchase the mill.
I expect learning to program and operate the machine will widen my horizons
considerably.

How about you? Is there something you can share with us, the readers of RCM,
that is not controversial, and is interesting? I read your comments about
traveling a great deal, and enjoying machines as time allows. Please do
tell us more.

Harold
RogerN





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On Tue, 28 Oct 2008 18:39:54 -0500, "RogerN"
wrote:

Didn't you know that fossils of aquatic life have been found high up on
mountains?


Don't you know how mountains are formed...????


They are thrust up from the crust of the earth by geologic activity,
ie., volcanic action (look at the Pacific Ocean for ongoing activity),
massive earthquakes, tectonic plate sub-duction (or whatever the ****
the correct phrase is...), etc...


Sooooooo, a rock formation that is at "ground level" (sea level?) at
one point in time can be 10,000 feet up after a geologic event.

That is how, you simple minded fool, that fossils of aquatic life can
be found high up on mountains.


This is called Scientific Fact. Much like evolution is Scientific
Fact.

So we don't know the precise details in every case. So the **** what?

It is all based on logic, reason, and scientific analysis.

Not emotion, superstition, and just plain narrow-mindedness that all
religion freaks exhibit.

**** man, THERE IS NO GOD!. Get over it....


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I missed the Staff meeting, but the Memos showed that Gunner Asch
wrote on Tue, 28 Oct 2008 10:25:45 -0700
in rec.crafts.metalworking :
On Mon, 27 Oct 2008 21:16:15 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

I missed the Staff meeting, but the Memos showed that Gunner Asch
wrote on Mon, 27 Oct 2008 09:42:19 -0700
in rec.crafts.metalworking :
On Mon, 27 Oct 2008 07:59:22 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

I missed the Staff meeting, but the Memos showed that "David R.Birch"
wrote on Sun, 26 Oct 2008 16:50:23 -0600 in
rec.crafts.metalworking :
Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sat, 25 Oct 2008 23:04:30 -0500, Ignoramus3071
wrote:

On 2008-10-26, RogerN wrote:
that wouldn't run out, etc. A new testament example is Jesus feeding 5000
men plus women and children with only a few fish and loaves. Yes, I know
Linux is the modern equivalent of that, giving goodness to millions
for free.

I used to be an agnostic, but by now I made up my mind and am an
atheist.

i

Atheism, just another faith based belief system.


Gunner

Which is why I'm an agnostic pantheist.

Except on Leap Day.

Then I'm a pantheistic agnostic.

David

Have you considered Slag-Blah? It is a philosophy of militant
agnosticism "We don't know, and you don't either!" Because so many
religions contradict the others, they give each religion it's own day
when those Doctrines reign supreme.
It does cause some problems, the calendar is some 17,823 days long
- and they only get paid once a year. But you're vested in the
pension plan after the first quarter.
Where do I sign up??


All I know is that there's a temple on New Hong Kong, near the
space port.


Across the street from Zo^!*'s Bar and Bank?


Could be. I usually go the other way to Asteroid Al's. Although
I stay home on "Pop Skull Night".

"Omnisnert: consume more Fleen!"

tschus
pyotr
--
pyotr filipivich
"I had just been through hell and must have looked like death warmed
over walking into the saloon, because when I asked the bartender
whether they served zombies he said, ‘Sure, what'll you have?'"
from I Hear America Swinging by Peter DeVries
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"Alex B. Graham" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 28 Oct 2008 18:39:54 -0500, "RogerN"
wrote:

Didn't you know that fossils of aquatic life have been found high up on
mountains?


Don't you know how mountains are formed...????


They are thrust up from the crust of the earth by geologic activity,
ie., volcanic action (look at the Pacific Ocean for ongoing activity),
massive earthquakes, tectonic plate sub-duction (or whatever the ****
the correct phrase is...), etc...


Uh, yeah, I knew that. I guess you missed my reply, I even gave the verse
in Genesis chapter 1 verse 9 that told about that thousands of years before
scientists knew about it.


Sooooooo, a rock formation that is at "ground level" (sea level?) at
one point in time can be 10,000 feet up after a geologic event.

That is how, you simple minded fool, that fossils of aquatic life can
be found high up on mountains.


This is called Scientific Fact. Much like evolution is Scientific
Fact.


Micro evolution is scientific fact, macro evolution is theory with zero
evidence and 100% speculation.

So we don't know the precise details in every case. So the **** what?

It is all based on logic, reason, and scientific analysis.


Contrary to what you believe, it's all based on faith and the hope you won't
be held accountable for your own sin by God. Why do you think so many
jumped on me for this thread when they tolerate the political posts? It's
because I challenged their faith based religion known as evolution.

Not emotion, superstition, and just plain narrow-mindedness that all
religion freaks exhibit.

**** man, THERE IS NO GOD!. Get over it....


That's too funny! If you would spend some time and check out how
evolutionists respond to scientific intelligent design, you'll see emotion
and their narrow minded superstition will be revealed. The defenders of the
evolutionary faith demonstrate emotion, distress, and resort to personal
attacks and claim an agenda on their opposition that use the scientific
process. They'll tell you there is no scientific process for intelligent
design but scientists apply this process to tell if a rock formation was
caused by perhaps erosion or if someone it was a product of intelligent
design.

The intelligent design process is applied to archeological discoveries to
determine if something was brought about by nature or if it is an
intelligent design, and in that setting is purely considered a scientific
process and accepted by scientists. However, when this same process is
applied to nature, it all of a sudden isn't a scientific process anymore
because it threatens the religion of scientists. Scientists must
dogmatically hold on to evolution because they have absolutely zero real
evidence of macro evolution and have been caught numerous times faking
evidence for it. Why would scientists want to fake evolutionary evidence?
Because they have an agenda to try to make their religion scientific and
they have sold it to suckers like you. Many, like you, are all to willing
to accept anything that scientists come up with as long as they are told
what they want to believe.

RogerN


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"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message
news


Hi Harold,
You're most likely not believing any religious stuff you read on the
internet. Just to fill you in, false teachings have been around as long as
false teachings. It has always been a practice of God to "Sign" the truth
with signs and wonders, AKA miracles. That doesn't mean that all religions
that don't have signs and wonders are false nor does it mean that all signs
and wonders are God's signature on truth. There are many Good religions
that teach the essentials but don't see many miracles. It's not that their
teaching is wrong but that they have faith without miracles. On the other
hand, often false religions can reproduce the miracles of God up to a point,
they are limited though. One example is the Egyptian magicians performing
miracles equivalent to Moses' miracles but the God of Moses kept on with the
miracles that the Egyptian magicians could not.

On Topic:

So, do you machine for a living now or are you retired and doing it as a
hobby? That CNC mill sounds awesome, especialy if you get to play with it
in the hobby realm vs having to earn a living with it. I currently have no
handy shop. My shop is in the building at my old residence where my mother
currently lives. I've been hoping to get a shop building at my current
residence but finances have been too tight to make it happen.

In my home shop I have 2 manual mills and 1 CNC mill, nothing under 2000lbs
and a manual lathe, 13 X 54 South Bend, and a CNC lathe, 14 X 20 Yam. Both
of my CNC machines came with Anilam Controls. I didn't get the lathe
control running so I converted it to run EMC2 from a Linux PC. If I ever
get a shop here, I plan to convert the mill to EMC2 also. The PC based
control is nice since I can transfer programs so easily.

You probably didn't do too bad by avoiding CNC until now because you can get
a lot more CNC machine today for the money than you could a few years ago.
For Example, my CNC lathe was $40,000 to the original buyers in 1986 but I
bought it a couple of years ago for $1400 and spent perhaps $1500 on the PC
based controls, vfd, cable, etc.

RogerN



Roger, you have now broached a proper subject, and I thank you for asking.

I have been building our retirement home for a few years, which is not yet
finished. Mean time, my machines have been idle aside from the occasional
use in support of the house building project. However, I recently took
possession of a HAAS CNC mill, a toolroom model. It has no tool changer,
and I am not experienced in the least with CNC operation, having worked my
career as a manual machinist/toolmaker, and making the decision to avoid
getting involved with CNC. That's a decision I now regret, but I will
attempt to get caught up to some degree, and will likely purchase the
mill. I expect learning to program and operate the machine will widen my
horizons considerably.

How about you? Is there something you can share with us, the readers of
RCM, that is not controversial, and is interesting? I read your comments
about traveling a great deal, and enjoying machines as time allows.
Please do tell us more.

Harold
RogerN







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"RogerN" wrote in message
m...

"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message
news


Hi Harold,
You're most likely not believing any religious stuff you read on the
internet.


Not just there. I was born and raised in the Greek Orthodox Church.
They've never done a thing to harm me, nor have they called upon me for
anything. From my first recollections, a very young age, I had a problem
with the concept of a creator----way too much fantasy for a kid with a
scientific mind.

I simply don't understand the need for religion, although I can understand
that many need it in order to live a good and decent life. Mistakes I've
made were mistakes I'd have made, be I religious or not. I have always
understood right from wrong, although as a young person I was guilty of
ignoring good and sound principles. I was fortunate to have a father that
set a good example------he worked hard for his money and didn't cheat
people. His word was as good as his signature. AS I matured, I could see
the value of living a good life----with or without religion.

I firmly believe that we are responsible for everything we do, although
some folks are adept at lying to themselves, somehow distorting what is,
even when they know better. Such people generally do the wrong thing, then
look for any number of reasons to not be responsible for their actions.
I mention this because one need not be religious to live a good and
righteous life. I do not cheat my fellow man, and I am willing to help
where I can. I am a good friend, although I don't extend friendship
without some strings. That, of course, is the result of having been
mistreated by countless people that claimed to be good Christians.

One of the finest people I ever met in my life was an elderly gentleman that
was an atheist. He was generous to a fault, and a good and faithful friend.
I could see no way anyone could have improved on him as a person.
Certainly, belonging to a church wouldn't have helped.

Just to fill you in, false teachings have been around as long as
false teachings. It has always been a practice of God to "Sign" the truth
with signs and wonders, AKA miracles. That doesn't mean that all
religions that don't have signs and wonders are false nor does it mean
that all signs and wonders are God's signature on truth. There are many
Good religions that teach the essentials but don't see many miracles.
It's not that their teaching is wrong but that they have faith without
miracles. On the other hand, often false religions can reproduce the
miracles of God up to a point, they are limited though. One example is
the Egyptian magicians performing miracles equivalent to Moses' miracles
but the God of Moses kept on with the miracles that the Egyptian magicians
could not.


The problem with all of this is that while it may or may not be true----and
it generally isn't----even if you're to witness what someone might consider
a "miracle"----there's generally a very good and proper explanation for what
you have observed. In all too many cases, slight of hand is involved.

Interestingly, some time ago there was an article in the news paper that
discussed the very thing you mentioned----Moses and his miracles. It was
suggested that the Moses you speak of was not an individual, but, indeed, a
band of roving magicians that took advantage of the ignorant people of the
time. As I said, if you know more, there is usually a good and proper
explanation for what one may consider a miracle. But then, out of respect
for you as an individual, one that need not be an agnostic to share my
friendship, lets talk shop instead. Please understand that some very good
and well educated people have tried to swing my opinion and have never
succeeded. Likely one of the best comments ever offered was when my
mother inquired of one of the priests at the Greek Orthodox Church in Salt
Lake City, who is now deceased, but has a church named in his honor (Profit
Elias Greek Orthodox Church).

My mother was concerned about her son being a heathen. Father Elias told
her that not all people have a conviction------that I was fine as I was.
Heh! A holy man accepting me as I was. That, to me, is a cool man!


On Topic:

So, do you machine for a living now or are you retired and doing it as a
hobby?


Truth be known, I have been off the machines since 1983, when my hobby of
refining precious metals became overwhelming and demanded too much of my
time. I closed the doors on my business when we moved to the castle, which
was not finished. By the time I could have started the shop again, I was
so busy refining that I never looked back. I ran my humble operation for
16 years with outstanding success. I could have continued, but had no
inclination. I was totally burned out on machining, and still do not derive
much pleasure from running the machines. I kept them only because I know
that I would not do well without having them. I have plans of building a
live steam locomotive model, but I am also getting old and may not succeed.
I sold my refining business and retired in '94, just shy of my 55th
birthday.

That CNC mill sounds awesome, especialy if you get to play with it
in the hobby realm vs having to earn a living with it. I currently have
no handy shop. My shop is in the building at my old residence where my
mother currently lives. I've been hoping to get a shop building at my
current residence but finances have been too tight to make it happen.


It all takes time-----just don't abandon the quest. It is an excellent
retirement hobby, assuming you have the interest. I was retired when I
built the shop I have now, the only shop that would have truly fit my needs
when I was running the machines for gain. That may be your destiny as
well.


In my home shop I have 2 manual mills and 1 CNC mill, nothing under
2000lbs and a manual lathe, 13 X 54 South Bend, and a CNC lathe, 14 X 20
Yam. Both of my CNC machines came with Anilam Controls. I didn't get the
lathe control running so I converted it to run EMC2 from a Linux PC. If I
ever get a shop here, I plan to convert the mill to EMC2 also. The PC
based control is nice since I can transfer programs so easily.


I envy you your computer knowledge. That's my shortcoming, and will be the
most challenging of my plans. Machining, while I'm rusty, is not an issue.
CNC is.


You probably didn't do too bad by avoiding CNC until now because you can
get a lot more CNC machine today for the money than you could a few years
ago. For Example, my CNC lathe was $40,000 to the original buyers in 1986
but I bought it a couple of years ago for $1400 and spent perhaps $1500 on
the PC based controls, vfd, cable, etc.


I'd certainly have to agree that you can get so much more for the money
now----and when I was machining, CNC was not as well developed as it is now.
Considering my specialty was small volume production and tooling, I would
not have benefited as well as one would today-----and I had more work to do
than I could put out. Good customers, too.. I served the defense industry,
and counted amongst my customers Litton Guidance and Control and Univac.
Top quality work, and small, exactly where my talent was.

Good luck with the shop and machines. Keep us updated.

Harold


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Today I watched Ben Stein's movie "Expelled-No Intelligence Allowed". I
thought his interview with Richard Dawkins was interesting. A few years
back Dawkins had a book called "The Blind Watchmaker: Why the Evidence of
Evolution Reveals a Universe Without Design." In the interview with Ben
Stein, Dawkins seemed to think that perhaps Aliens evolved to a very high
intelligence and designed the seed cell and planted it on Earth, and all
life on earth came from that. So, it sounds like one of the top evolution
scientist atheist author believes we may have been intelligently designed.
Maybe he didn't read his book about the "evidence of evolution revealing a
universe without design".

I thought the movie was interesting but Ben Stein should have interviewed
you because you seem to think you know more that Richard Dawkins or any of
the other evolutionary science professors and scientists that Ben
interviewed. Richard Dawkins said nobody knows how life began but I'll bet
you know, don't you? You were probably there and observed it yourself, or
at least your writings sound like you definately know exactly what happened.
If you let Richard Dawkins know that you have all the answers, maybe he'll
pay you to be the all knowing authority for his next book.

RogerN


"Dave C" wrote in message
news
Wow you are seriously uninformed. You should take Al out dancing, you
should hit it off great. I think that you must be poster boy for your
local nut house. (fringe church)

If you can really read, have a look at the following web site. It is
just one of many but it is particularly well organized so even someone
that is terminally stunned could follow it and it covers just about
all the first century goop you spray about.

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/

It does not preach anything but looks at each and EVERY silly concept
you espouse from a detached viewpoint.

It is strictly analytical and has all references to each and every
single one of your silly claims. It even includes your own special
collections of conflicting stories book. You know which one that is,
the one that is missing three quarters of the stories because they
were just too weird to be included.

Enough said, I hope you are not too disappointed that no magic friend
will show up to save you and float your silly ass into the great
whatever magic place you dream about.

I still place bets that you are a rural flatlander. Nothing to
challenge your vision there.

I think you place yourself up in the tree closer to your magic friend
so that when you look down you just see the faces of the poor masses
but from down here we look up and see nothing but ass holes.










On Tue, 28 Oct 2008 21:23:08 -0500, "RogerN"
wrote:


"Dave C" wrote in message
. ..
It is pretty simple is you had gone past grade seven you would know
about plate tectonics. Live in the mountains and it is very obvious
how it uplifts and bends the crust on the collision zones. IE the
entire west coast of both Americas. You would know ifin ya had made
it past grade seven. Even the strict Catholic, Anglican and Orthodox
churches has figured this one out. Get with the program.


So, what are now mountains used to be under water, right? So, before the
mountains rose out of the water, what would it be called when the whole
earth was under water? A global flood, you're right! You win a lifetime
supply of rice-a-roni, just pay $24.95/box S&H.

Genesis Chapter1
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the
face
of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

See, as early a Genesis Chapter 1 verse 2 they knew the mountains were
under
the water.

Wait a minute, here comes the plate tectonics you mentioned

9 ¶ And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together
unto
one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

The soup of life (DNA etc) is fairly easy to create. You, in your
statement that all present forms of life come from parents is true. It
is fairly easy to use mitochondria DNA to trace most human life back
to the branch we took from the tree of life. Hate to break it to you
but eve was black and lived in Africa. She was under four feet tall
and not much to look at.


Wow, is this like the tooth that scientists formed an ancient man skull
for
and later found out it was a tooth from a pig? It's amazing how they can
make up, err, I mean figure out all that detail just from some DNA
evidence.
Does science also know the color of her shoes? Since she was the first
and
only one of this species, who did she reproduce with? I'm glad I didn't
get
any of that education. In my neck of the woods, we use that stuff you've
been fed as fertilizer. Since the soup if fairly easy to create, perhaps
you could create some and create a living cell from it? Or take a
complete
living cell and produce a more complicated life form without using a more
complicated life form after taking the complete living cell, DNA and all.
Can science make a frog using frog blood cells and the soup of life? I
didn't think so.

BTW, one of the top authors of evolution books in them libraries you
mention
is Richard Dawkins. Ben Stein made a move called "Expelled, No
Intelligence
Allowed" or something like that. He interviewed Richard Dawkins asking
questions and Richard Dawkins thought perhaps Aliens from another planet
came to earth and started life here. Then Ben asked him about the origin
of
those Aliens and Mr. Dawkins didn't like it very good. Seems them books
on
evolution in them libraries you refer to should be somewhere in the Mother
Goose or Dr Seuss sections. If you research the facts, you'll learn that
them books on evolution are just fairy tales for adults made to sound
scientific.

RogerN



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