On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 4:12:56 PM UTC-5, Micky wrote:
On Sun, 6 Mar 2016 09:12:14 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 10:00:21 AM UTC-5, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Sun, 06 Mar 2016 07:25:01 -0000, Micky wrote:

On Sat, 05 Mar 2016 14:50:19 -0500, wrote:


Over here in the colonies we take that 240v and center tap the
transformer so both ungrounded legs are 120v above ground. That still
gives us the ability to use 240v equipment but most ends up being
120v. I suppose we can blame Thomas Edison for that. He started a fear
campaign against Nick Tesla over AC current, Edison wanted DC and he
said AC was more deadly, to the point of electrocuting an elephant
along with more than a few condemned prisoners ... all with AC.
When he lost the war, the deadly part still stuck and the belief was
that 120 would be safer, still leaving the option of having 240v
equipment.

I thought 240 was indeed more deadly than 120 and that more people
died of shocks, per capita, in the UK than here. How could 240 not
be more deadly than 120?

Isn't it the case that if either of them goes through your heart it can kill you? Anything over 80 volts or something like that is all the same.

The only difference is that much higher voltages can burn your skin, or jump across gaps where you least expect it. But that's kV.

--
Take notice: when this sign is under water, this road is impassable.

It's the current that kills. Not sure on the numbers, but maybe on
the order of 30ma and above can effect the heart rhythm. The human
body has some resistance, X. If you put 240V across that, you're going
to get 2x the current as you do with 120V. But.... That's really a
red herring the way the system works here. To get 240V you'd have to
be across both hot wires, which is extremely unlikely. Most common

You're thinking about the USA.

Once again, you're right Sherlock. It was a dead give away when a couple
of sentences later I ended with:

"Not sure how it works over there. "

On Sun, 06 Mar 2016 02:25:01 -0500, Micky
wrote:

On Sat, 05 Mar 2016 14:50:19 -0500, wrote:


Over here in the colonies we take that 240v and center tap the
transformer so both ungrounded legs are 120v above ground. That still
gives us the ability to use 240v equipment but most ends up being
120v. I suppose we can blame Thomas Edison for that. He started a fear
campaign against Nick Tesla over AC current, Edison wanted DC and he
said AC was more deadly, to the point of electrocuting an elephant
along with more than a few condemned prisoners ... all with AC.
When he lost the war, the deadly part still stuck and the belief was
that 120 would be safer, still leaving the option of having 240v
equipment.

I thought 240 was indeed more deadly than 120 and that more people
died of shocks, per capita, in the UK than here. How could 240 not
be more deadly than 120?
Something to do with the physiological responce to the shock. Some
voltages make you hang on, others throw you off - making it virtually
impossible to hold on.. I can't remember what my Dad used to say (he
was an electrician) but some of the higher voltages could be safer
than the lower voltages because the lower voltage made you grab the
wire hard and not let go.


The let-go phenomenon for low (600 V) contact

A factor that makes a large difference in the injury sustained in
low-voltage shocks is the inability to let go. The amount of current
in the arm that will cause the hand to involuntarily grip strongly is
referred to as the let-go current.7 If a person's fingers are wrapped
around a large cable or energized vacuum cleaner handle, for example,
most adults will be able to let go with a current of less than 6 mA.
At 22 mA, more than 99% of adults will not be able to let go. The pain
associated with the let-go current is so severe that young, motivated
volunteers could tolerate it for only a few seconds.7 With current
flow in the forearm, the muscles of flexion and extension are both
stimulated. However, the muscles of flexion are stronger, making the
person unable to voluntarily let go. Nearly all cases of inability to
let go involve alternating current. Alternating current repetitively
stimulates nerves and muscles, resulting in a tetanic (sustained)
contraction that lasts as long as the contact is continued. If this
leads to the subject tightening his or her grip on a conductor, the
result is continued electric current flow through the person and
lowered contact resistance.8

With alternating current, there is a feeling of electric shock as long
as contact is made. In contrast, with direct current, there is only a
feeling of shock when the circuit is made or broken. While the contact
is maintained, there is no sensation of shock. Below 300 mA DC rms,
there is no let-go phenomenon because the hand is not involuntarily
clamped. There is a feeling of warmth while the current travels
through the arm. Making or breaking the circuit leads to painful
unpleasant shocks. Above 300 mA, letting go may be impossible.4 The
threshold for ventricular fibrillation for direct current shocks
longer than 2 seconds is 150 mA as compared with 50 mA for 60-Hz
shocks; for shocks shorter than 0.2 seconds, the threshold is the same
as that for 60-HZ shocks, that is, approximately 500 mA.4

Heating power is also increased when a person cannot let go. This is
because a firm grip increases the area of skin effectively in contact
with the conductors. Additionally, highly conductive sweat accumulates
between the skin and conductors over time. Both of these factors lower
the contact resistance, which increases the amount of current flow. In
addition, the heating is greater because the duration of the contact
is often several minutes in comparison with the fraction of a second
that it takes to withdraw from a painful stimulus.

Being unable to let go results in more current for a longer period of
time. This will increase damage due to heating of muscle and nerves.
There will also be an increase in pain and the incidence of
respiratory and cardiac arrest. There can also be shoulder dislocation
with associated tendon and ligament injury, as well as bony fractures
in the area of the shoulders.


Go to:

The let-go phenomenon for high (600 V) contact

Several different outcomes may occur when a person grasps a conductor
giving 10 kV AC hand-to-hand voltage. It takes over 0.5 seconds of
such contact before most of the distal forearm cells are heat damaged.
However, within 10 to 100 milliseconds, muscles in the current path
will strongly contract. The person may be stimulated to grasp the
conductor more tightly, making a stronger mechanical contact. Or, the
person may be propelled away from the contact. Which of these events
occurs depends on the position of the hand relative to the conductor.
Most eyewitnesses report the victims being propelled from the
conductor, possibly because of generalized muscle contractions. The
time of contact is estimated to be about 100 milliseconds or less in
such cases.9(p57

On Sun, 06 Mar 2016 22:51:38 -0000, wrote:

On Sun, 06 Mar 2016 02:25:01 -0500, Micky
wrote:

On Sat, 05 Mar 2016 14:50:19 -0500, wrote:


Over here in the colonies we take that 240v and center tap the
transformer so both ungrounded legs are 120v above ground. That still
gives us the ability to use 240v equipment but most ends up being
120v. I suppose we can blame Thomas Edison for that. He started a fear
campaign against Nick Tesla over AC current, Edison wanted DC and he
said AC was more deadly, to the point of electrocuting an elephant
along with more than a few condemned prisoners ... all with AC.
When he lost the war, the deadly part still stuck and the belief was
that 120 would be safer, still leaving the option of having 240v
equipment.

I thought 240 was indeed more deadly than 120 and that more people
died of shocks, per capita, in the UK than here. How could 240 not
be more deadly than 120?
Something to do with the physiological responce to the shock. Some
voltages make you hang on, others throw you off - making it virtually
impossible to hold on.. I can't remember what my Dad used to say (he
was an electrician) but some of the higher voltages could be safer
than the lower voltages because the lower voltage made you grab the
wire hard and not let go.

I thought all AC allowed you to let go? DC cramps your muscles up.

The let-go phenomenon for low (600 V) contact

A factor that makes a large difference in the injury sustained in
low-voltage shocks is the inability to let go. The amount of current
in the arm that will cause the hand to involuntarily grip strongly is
referred to as the let-go current.7 If a person's fingers are wrapped
around a large cable or energized vacuum cleaner handle, for example,
most adults will be able to let go with a current of less than 6 mA.
At 22 mA, more than 99% of adults will not be able to let go. The pain
associated with the let-go current is so severe that young, motivated
volunteers could tolerate it for only a few seconds.

I call "********". I once picked up a wall socket which I'd used as a trailing socket, and it was wired backwards (earlier on, not by me), so when I'd switched it off, I'd disconnected the neutral and not the live. Hence I got 240V through my hand from live to earth. All it did was warm up my hand. I let go very easily.

7 With current
flow in the forearm, the muscles of flexion and extension are both
stimulated. However, the muscles of flexion are stronger, making the
person unable to voluntarily let go. Nearly all cases of inability to
let go involve alternating current. Alternating current repetitively
stimulates nerves and muscles, resulting in a tetanic (sustained)
contraction that lasts as long as the contact is continued. If this
leads to the subject tightening his or her grip on a conductor, the
result is continued electric current flow through the person and
lowered contact resistance.8

With alternating current, there is a feeling of electric shock as long
as contact is made. In contrast, with direct current, there is only a
feeling of shock when the circuit is made or broken.

Incorrect again. Place a PP3 9V battery on your tongue. That will sting continuously until you remove it.

--
I'd rather have a life than a living.

On Sun, 6 Mar 2016 10:41:43 -0500, "Ralph Mowery"
wrote:


"Mr Macaw" wrote in message news On Sun, 06 Mar 2016 05:04:22 -0000, wrote:

On Sat, 05 Mar 2016 21:11:01 -0000, "Mr Macaw" wrote:

On Sat, 05 Mar 2016 19:50:19 -0000, wrote:


More wires and outlets all over the house, inconvenient I guess.

Why are more outlets "inconvenient"?

Because of the two different types. If I want to plug in a hoover, I use
any outlet. You have to find one of the right voltage. So to make it as
likely to have one, you need twice as many outlets.

There are no 240 volt "outlets" in a typical north american home. Only
high current items such as driers and ranges run on 240 volts - and
they have specific connectors for the amperage of the appliance. A
range uses a different plug than a drier., and those connectors are
installed only where that specific appliance will be installed.

In fact our code requires that you are pretty much never more than 6
feet from a receptacle, not crossing a door or other opening.

Why on earth would convenience be in your code? I thought "code" was for
safety?

It is NOT for convenience, but for safety. Running extention cords
everywhere is not safe. Particularly running them across doorways
under carpets.
240 equipment is generally going to be fixed in place anyway.

I will say that in my travels I was impressed with the 240v tea
kettle, if you really make that much tea.

So what are your kettles? 110 volts and 1.5kW? That would take an age to
boil. Or do they have a 30 amp flex?

Out tea kettles are generally 120 volt and 1500 watts, +/- and can
heat a cup of water for tea in about 45 seconds to 2 minutes.

Heating a quart takes a bit longer - and some heat faster than others.
What about an iron? A portable fan-heater or convector heater? There are
loads of appliances which need a lot of power that you may wish to move
about.

Portable heaters generally run 1500 watts on high, and 750 or 850 on
low. Irons are generally 1200 watts. They do not heat up immediately,
but mabee the "colonials" have a bit more patience then folks from
"the old country"

We get 240V at 80-100 amps. I for some reason have a 100A master fuse,
followed by a meter which has a rating of 80 amps. I've seen some old
meters that say 60 amps. However the wire coming into my house is quite
substantial and could probably take 300A if I told them I needed more, and
they could just change the fuse and the meter.

The average north american home has a minimum of 100 amp service -
with very many having 200 amp, and others 120 and 150. Some large
homes have multiple 200 or 400 amp services.

60 amp is pretty well obsolete now and is nefer installed in a new
building. All of our fuses are AFTER the meter.

If we're not in the middle of nowhere, heating, hot water, and cooking is
done by gas (it's 3 times cheaper), so we don't use that much electricity.
Showers, washing machines, and dishwashers tend to heat their own water, so
those and a tumble dryer (our weather is very damp) are about the only
things that wil use much.

Here we don't generally use "widow-maker" showers - and washing
machines and dishwashers generally use hot water from the central
water heater (tank type or more recently in more numbers, tankless "on
demand " heaters. Dish washers sometimes have a built-in heater for
the "sanitize" cycle.

My usage ranges from about 2 MWH a month

Looking at my last bill, I used 1.5MWH between April 25th and Oct 11th,
which is several times less than you. WTF are you doing with all that
power?

to around 2.5 MWH when the AC is on.

Now you see AC isn't needed in the UK :-)



In the US most common items that plug in use 120 volts. The standard
current is up to about 15 amps. Good enough for small electric heaters to
warm up one room. Washing machines are usually 120 volts and do not heat
the water, dryers are 240 volts and have a special plug for that, same as
for the electric stoves and ovens. Irons are 120 volts, but not many use
them now.
Coffee pots, microwaves, and toasters and other plug in devices for the
kitchen are usually 120 volts.Problem is that unless several circuits are
ran to the kitchen you can only do one or two things at a time.

And current code requires several 20 amp circuits for the kitchen.

Just looking and my bill shows 2,039 KWH for this past month. That is for
all electric and I have a well for water. Been using the portable heater for
an unheated room in the basement some this winter. The summer bill is not
usuall too much less due to AC. Lots less in months we do not heat or cool.
The heat is by a heat pump.

The code is for safety. Most items come with about 6 feet of cord, so
outlets are usually every 6 feet of wall space by the code. Several
circuits for the kitchen area.

I think my main breaker is 200 amps.

On Sun, 06 Mar 2016 23:07:40 -0000, wrote:

On Sun, 6 Mar 2016 10:41:43 -0500, "Ralph Mowery"
wrote:


"Mr Macaw" wrote in message news On Sun, 06 Mar 2016 05:04:22 -0000, wrote:

On Sat, 05 Mar 2016 21:11:01 -0000, "Mr Macaw" wrote:

On Sat, 05 Mar 2016 19:50:19 -0000, wrote:


More wires and outlets all over the house, inconvenient I guess.

Why are more outlets "inconvenient"?

Because of the two different types. If I want to plug in a hoover, I use
any outlet. You have to find one of the right voltage. So to make it as
likely to have one, you need twice as many outlets.

There are no 240 volt "outlets" in a typical north american home. Only
high current items such as driers and ranges run on 240 volts - and
they have specific connectors for the amperage of the appliance. A
range uses a different plug than a drier., and those connectors are
installed only where that specific appliance will be installed.

So rearranging your house is a bugger then. No thanks.

In fact our code requires that you are pretty much never more than 6
feet from a receptacle, not crossing a door or other opening.

Why on earth would convenience be in your code? I thought "code" was for
safety?

It is NOT for convenience, but for safety. Running extention cords
everywhere is not safe. Particularly running them across doorways
under carpets.

Oh deary deary me. Just look where you're going perhaps?

Do you know what I love doing in supermarkets when they put yellow signs up saying "danger wet floor"? Fall over them. It really confuses the health and softy morons.

240 equipment is generally going to be fixed in place anyway.

I will say that in my travels I was impressed with the 240v tea
kettle, if you really make that much tea.

So what are your kettles? 110 volts and 1.5kW? That would take an age to
boil. Or do they have a 30 amp flex?

Out tea kettles are generally 120 volt and 1500 watts, +/- and can
heat a cup of water for tea in about 45 seconds to 2 minutes.

So if more than one of you wants a cup, or you want a large mug of coffee, you have to wait 5 minutes? That is unacceptable.

Heating a quart takes a bit longer - and some heat faster than others.
What about an iron? A portable fan-heater or convector heater? There are
loads of appliances which need a lot of power that you may wish to move
about.

Portable heaters generally run 1500 watts on high, and 750 or 850 on
low. Irons are generally 1200 watts. They do not heat up immediately,
but mabee the "colonials" have a bit more patience then folks from
"the old country"

Good enough to maintain a room temperature, but useless for heating one up in under a decade, or drying out something very wet.

We get 240V at 80-100 amps. I for some reason have a 100A master fuse,
followed by a meter which has a rating of 80 amps. I've seen some old
meters that say 60 amps. However the wire coming into my house is quite
substantial and could probably take 300A if I told them I needed more, and
they could just change the fuse and the meter.

The average north american home has a minimum of 100 amp service -
with very many having 200 amp, and others 120 and 150. Some large
homes have multiple 200 or 400 amp services.

60 amp is pretty well obsolete now and is nefer installed in a new
building. All of our fuses are AFTER the meter.

Which doesn't protect the meter. Mind you, it would make it harder to steal electricity.

If we're not in the middle of nowhere, heating, hot water, and cooking is
done by gas (it's 3 times cheaper), so we don't use that much electricity.
Showers, washing machines, and dishwashers tend to heat their own water, so
those and a tumble dryer (our weather is very damp) are about the only
things that wil use much.

Here we don't generally use "widow-maker" showers

I had to look that up, and got this image:
https://theuntilmatters.files.wordpr...dow-maker2.jpg

Although ours don't look like that, those ones are cheap **** you get on campsites, ours do heat the water with electricity, in a box on the wall. Why would you think that was dangerous?

- and washing
machines and dishwashers generally use hot water from the central
water heater (tank type or more recently in more numbers, tankless "on
demand " heaters. Dish washers sometimes have a built-in heater for
the "sanitize" cycle.

My usage ranges from about 2 MWH a month

Looking at my last bill, I used 1.5MWH between April 25th and Oct 11th,
which is several times less than you. WTF are you doing with all that
power?

to around 2.5 MWH when the AC is on.

Now you see AC isn't needed in the UK :-)



In the US most common items that plug in use 120 volts. The standard
current is up to about 15 amps. Good enough for small electric heaters to
warm up one room. Washing machines are usually 120 volts and do not heat
the water, dryers are 240 volts and have a special plug for that, same as
for the electric stoves and ovens. Irons are 120 volts, but not many use
them now.
Coffee pots, microwaves, and toasters and other plug in devices for the
kitchen are usually 120 volts.Problem is that unless several circuits are
ran to the kitchen you can only do one or two things at a time.

And current code requires several 20 amp circuits for the kitchen.

Now you see that's convenience not safety.

--
Seen in a lift:
"Please do not allow excessive obnoxious gaseous substances to be released from your anal orifice as the ventilation system is limited".

On Sun, 06 Mar 2016 11:41:00 -0500, wrote:

On Sun, 06 Mar 2016 15:18:08 -0000, "Mr Macaw" wrote:

On Sun, 06 Mar 2016 05:04:22 -0000, wrote:

On Sat, 05 Mar 2016 21:11:01 -0000, "Mr Macaw" wrote:

On Sat, 05 Mar 2016 19:50:19 -0000, wrote:


More wires and outlets all over the house, inconvenient I guess.

Why are more outlets "inconvenient"?

Because of the two different types. If I want to plug in a hoover, I use any outlet. You have to find one of the right voltage. So to make it as likely to have one, you need twice as many outlets.

We don't really have that much 240v equipment and most is fixed in
place. The required outlets are all 120v


In fact our code requires that you are pretty much never more than 6
feet from a receptacle, not crossing a door or other opening.

Why on earth would convenience be in your code? I thought "code" was for safety?

In the case of receptacle spacing, the safety thing is limiting the
number of extension cords used and making it unnecessary to string
cords across openings.
There are plenty of people who say we have allowed too many things
into the code that are not safety related. Manufacturers have a lot of
influence in the code process.


240 equipment is generally going to be fixed in place anyway.

I will say that in my travels I was impressed with the 240v tea
kettle, if you really make that much tea.

So what are your kettles? 110 volts and 1.5kW? That would take an age to boil. Or do they have a 30 amp flex?

What about an iron? A portable fan-heater or convector heater? There are loads of appliances which need a lot of power that you may wish to move about.


120v equipment is pretty much limited to 1440w. Irons seem to function
just fine at 1kw or less and we don't really drink that much tea.
I am not sure you can even buy a dedicated tea kettle here.

Actually lots of "tea kettles" "coffee pots" and "coffee makers" here
in Canada. Indo recall not that many years ago friends from the USA
buying tea kettles here and taking them home with them because they
were not readilly available at home. I've seen them for sale in the
USA when we've been down in recent years.

People
boil water on the stove where they have plenty of power.
We really try to avoid the use of portable heaters by having robust
central systems but there are still plenty of 1440w heaters around.
They cause a disproportionate number of the fires, usually in older
homes with bad electrical systems.

If we're not in the middle of nowhere, heating, hot water, and cooking is done by gas (it's 3 times cheaper), so we don't use that much electricity. Showers, washing machines, and dishwashers tend to heat their own water, so those and a tumble dryer (our weather is very damp) are about the only things that wil use much.

My usage ranges from about 2 MWH a month

Looking at my last bill, I used 1.5MWH between April 25th and Oct 11th, which is several times less than you. WTF are you doing with all that power?

Pumping and heating water, cooking, heat and A/C, running a spa and a
pool. It starts adding up fast I guess
Heat is not really an issue but when we do it we have toaster wire
heaters. I have not had the central heat on in a couple of years but
we do have a 1440w "electric fireplace" in the living room that my
wife uses on cold mornings for a little warm up.

That is between $200 and $300 with all the fees taxes and other
charges.

Here, 2.5MWH would cost £340 = $480, about twice what you pay. Why is America cheaper for everything? There's a phrase "rip off Britain" but nobody knows why it's the case.

Everyone knows why. Same reason we pay a bit more (taxes) here in
Canada. As the level of "socialism" goes up, so do the taxes. You
choose the level you are comfortable with and pay accordingly.

I imagine you have a tad more in taxes but we also use natural gas for
electrical generation and that is pretty cheap here.

On Sun, 06 Mar 2016 11:56:27 -0500, wrote:

On Sun, 06 Mar 2016 15:31:58 -0000, "Mr Macaw" wrote:

On Sun, 06 Mar 2016 15:27:28 -0000, Ralph Mowery wrote:


"Mr Macaw" wrote in message news .

What is an "ice storm"? Is that the same as a "hail storm"? Our
transformers never seem to break.


The ice storm is when the rain fall out of the sky and freezes on the power
lines and trees. It can build up to several inches in diameter. Often the
ice is more than the tree or some of the big limbs can stand and they break
and fall across the power lines. Sometimes could be called freezing rain.

Unlike hail that is already frozen and does not usually stick to the wires
and trees. Hail can be large enough to damage things but does not usually
take out the power lines.

That's very odd and seems to be against the laws of physics. If it's below freezing on the branches, how come it's above freezing higher up (where you'd expect it to be colder) causing rain and not hail?

The only time we get too much weight on branches is in colder parts (North Scotland) where SNOW falls on things. Snow has the ability to stick of course, and builds up.

This ice thing happens when the temp is hovering around 0c. the rain
mixed with snow (aka the dreaded "sleet and freezing rain")
accumulates on ice that is already there and freezes creating another
layer. It is just a strange thing that doesn't make as much sense as
you would like but seeing a CM coating of ice on anything that it
lands on makes it a reality. These things can be quite beautiful until
stuff starts breaking. Imagine a forest of trees apparently made of
glass. On a full moon night it is breath taking.
The biggest part of the electrical problem is the reluctance of
northern folks to cut back trees around power lines.

Up here in "the north" you don't need trees to take down wires in ice
storms. When the wire is 2 1/2 inches in diameter from ice buildup, it
doesn't take much to snap the wires (or even the poles if a good wing
comes up) One reason much of our "secondary" distribution is
underground - along with many of the distribution transformers.
Down here in Florida they are very aggressive about eliminating
anything growing in the right of way. You really do not own the land
in front of your house within about 3m of the road (where the power
lines run) and the power company has the power to cut anything that
encroaches into that space. They do. People accept it because of the
number of wind storms we have. The power companies are really working
to get as much as this as they can, underground. Around here, the
phone company is already there and my landline is actually more
reliable than the cell after a hurricane. I have never lost it in 32
years.

On Sun, 6 Mar 2016 12:20:17 -0500, "Ralph Mowery"
wrote:



Some of the code is way above ,but guess the government is trying to prevent
people from doing stupid things. They are regulating how hot the coffee can
be in restraunts now. Seems that a while aback someone got some hot coffee
at a drive through and spilled it on their selves and got burnt and sued and
won about 5 or 6 million dollars for that.


They were awarded a huge amount (2.68 million, i believe), but
McDonalds appealed and the payment was significantly reduced, with the
woman eventually recieving $640,000.

I did one wiring at my house that is not
to any code. Ran a # 10 wiring from the breaker box on a 30 amp breaker
to
an outside receptical ( actually a combination) where I can get 120 or
240
volts, but its main use is to hook up a 5 kw generator that I have incase
of
a power outage.

Ah, so it's actually an inlet? It would feed back into the house?


That was the main reason, Make it so I could use my gasoline powered 5 kw
generator to power part of the house if the power is out.

On Sun, 6 Mar 2016 12:52:58 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 3/5/2016 9:42 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Saturday, March 5, 2016 at 8:41:02 AM UTC-5, Stormin Mormon wrote:

The ground wire in question comes in from outdoors
(in a plastic wrapped sheath with two hots and a
neutral). The ground wire presently connects to
the same metal bar, about an inch from where the
neutral connects.


As previously explained, the ground and the neutral are supposed
to be connected together at the service disconnect. Exactly how
they are connected may vary depending on the panel. Did you pull
up the instructions for the specific panel?

CY: No, didn't think of that.


It is possible (enough wire to work with) to move
the ground wire (from outdoors) to a screw connector
on one of the two ground screw bars.


Why do you think you need to move anything?


CY: Because at least one outlet shows open ground.
Which is an outlet wiring problem. The tester is checing the
connection between neutral and ground. Y&our ground wire is loose,
disconnected, or broken on the circuit to that outlet. NO chance
moving the ground would solve that problem.

On Sun, 6 Mar 2016 12:56:59 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 3/6/2016 11:32 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 10:18:16 AM UTC-5, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Sun, 06 Mar 2016 05:04:22 -0000, wrote:


Why are more outlets "inconvenient"?

Because of the two different types. If I want to plug in a hoover, I use any outlet. You have to find one of the right voltage. So to make it as likely to have one, you need twice as many outlets.


All the common everyday appliances, eg microwave, electric kettle, lamps, vacuums, are 120V here and those are the only outlets distributed around the
house. 240V is used for electric dryers and ovens and it's about the only
place you'd find a 240V receptacle in a typical house. Some might have
it for some shop type gear, in their basement, garage etc too.


I've seen 220 or 240 volt outlets for through
the wall AC. 12,000 BTU per hour and larger,
most often.
They DO exist, but are very uncommon.

On Sun, 06 Mar 2016 16:12:50 -0500, Micky
wrote:

On Sun, 6 Mar 2016 09:12:14 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 10:00:21 AM UTC-5, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Sun, 06 Mar 2016 07:25:01 -0000, Micky wrote:

On Sat, 05 Mar 2016 14:50:19 -0500, wrote:


Over here in the colonies we take that 240v and center tap the
transformer so both ungrounded legs are 120v above ground. That still
gives us the ability to use 240v equipment but most ends up being
120v. I suppose we can blame Thomas Edison for that. He started a fear
campaign against Nick Tesla over AC current, Edison wanted DC and he
said AC was more deadly, to the point of electrocuting an elephant
along with more than a few condemned prisoners ... all with AC.
When he lost the war, the deadly part still stuck and the belief was
that 120 would be safer, still leaving the option of having 240v
equipment.

I thought 240 was indeed more deadly than 120 and that more people
died of shocks, per capita, in the UK than here. How could 240 not
be more deadly than 120?

Isn't it the case that if either of them goes through your heart it can kill you? Anything over 80 volts or something like that is all the same.

The only difference is that much higher voltages can burn your skin, or jump across gaps where you least expect it. But that's kV.

--
Take notice: when this sign is under water, this road is impassable.

It's the current that kills. Not sure on the numbers, but maybe on
the order of 30ma and above can effect the heart rhythm. The human
body has some resistance, X. If you put 240V across that, you're going
to get 2x the current as you do with 120V. But.... That's really a
red herring the way the system works here. To get 240V you'd have to
be across both hot wires, which is extremely unlikely. Most common

You're thinking about the USA.

Mr. Macaw just posted that the two wires coming into his home in the
UK were 240 and 0.

The comparison I had made was between the UK and the USA, and I said I
thought more people died of shocks, per capita, in the UK than the
USA.

is for you to connect between one hot wire and ground, like standing
in water, touching an appliance case, faucet, etc. In that case
you'd still only get 120V. Between each hot and ground you have 120V.
Not sure how it works over there.
That would definitely be true if all Britts had as little regard for
code, the rule of law and safe electrical practices as Macaw does.

There are a lot of "bodgers" in the UK - and the competency of many of
them leaves a whole lot to be desired. In the UK, Mc Guyver would be
an absolute genius.

On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 5:52:15 PM UTC-5, wrote:


With alternating current, there is a feeling of electric shock as long
as contact is made. In contrast, with direct current, there is only a
feeling of shock when the circuit is made or broken. While the contact
is maintained, there is no sensation of shock. Below 300 mA DC rms,
there is no let-go phenomenon because the hand is not involuntarily
clamped. There is a feeling of warmth while the current travels
through the arm. Making or breaking the circuit leads to painful
unpleasant shocks. Above 300 mA, letting go may be impossible.4 The
threshold for ventricular fibrillation for direct current shocks
longer than 2 seconds is 150 mA as compared with 50 mA for 60-Hz
shocks; for shocks shorter than 0.2 seconds, the threshold is the same
as that for 60-HZ shocks, that is, approximately 500 mA.4


Based on my "inability to let go" experience while in the USCG, I don't
think I agree with this statement:

"...with direct current, there is only a feeling of shock when the
circuit is made or broken. While the contact is maintained, there
is no sensation of shock."

I was learning how to work on power supplies using a "training device"
while attending the USCG electronics school. The training device was a
microwave sized 300VDC power supply which was set up to easily
accept failed components that the students had to find via systematic
trouble shooting steps. It was basically an open box so that all the
components were in full view. It weighed in at about 35 lbs.

One of the troubleshooting steps was to remove the built in load from
the power supply to see if the symptoms changed. The proper way to
remove the load was to shut down the power supply, remove a jumper -
a short cable with banana plugs on both ends - and then turn the power
supply back on.

I was a cocky kid and to save time I figured I would just grab the
jumper in the middle of the loop and just yank it out. Unfortunately,
the load side of the jumper came out, but the supply side stayed in.
I had my left forearm resting on the case and the open end of the jumper
came in contact with my hand. (4 decades later and the scars are still
very visible). At that point my arm became the load for the 300VDC supply
and my brain did not like it. I couldn't move my left arm so my brain
told my right arm to push the case away. As soon as my right arm touched
the case, I was stuck. I grabbed the 35 lb unit and lifted it right off
the table screaming "Turn it off! Turn it off!" I absolutely could not
let go and I absolutely felt the electricity flowing through my arms
and chest. It was no "feeling of warmth", it was in every way the
"sensation of shock".

The lab was set up like a classroom and when I started yelling the
guy in front of me turned around and grabbed the power cord to pull
it out of the power strip on my table. Unfortunately, the power strip
just came up with the cord. The guy next to him slammed the power strip
back down to the table and the cord came out. Once the current stopped
flowing through my chest, I literally threw the power supply down onto
the table. Man, was I ****ed.

They took me to the infirmary and did the whole EKG thing. It turned out
that I was OK, other than being pretty shook up and having some bad burns
on both hands. When I went back to class the next day, a couple of things
had changed:

1 - 2 guys quit electronics school after seeing what happened to me.
2 - All the power strips had been screwed down to the tables. :-)

Anyway, bottom line is that I do not agree that with DC there is "no
sensation of shock" while contact is maintained.

On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 7:04:52 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sun, 06 Mar 2016 16:12:50 -0500, Micky
wrote:

On Sun, 6 Mar 2016 09:12:14 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 10:00:21 AM UTC-5, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Sun, 06 Mar 2016 07:25:01 -0000, Micky wrote:

On Sat, 05 Mar 2016 14:50:19 -0500, wrote:


Over here in the colonies we take that 240v and center tap the
transformer so both ungrounded legs are 120v above ground. That still
gives us the ability to use 240v equipment but most ends up being
120v. I suppose we can blame Thomas Edison for that. He started a fear
campaign against Nick Tesla over AC current, Edison wanted DC and he
said AC was more deadly, to the point of electrocuting an elephant
along with more than a few condemned prisoners ... all with AC.
When he lost the war, the deadly part still stuck and the belief was
that 120 would be safer, still leaving the option of having 240v
equipment.

I thought 240 was indeed more deadly than 120 and that more people
died of shocks, per capita, in the UK than here. How could 240 not
be more deadly than 120?

Isn't it the case that if either of them goes through your heart it can kill you? Anything over 80 volts or something like that is all the same.

The only difference is that much higher voltages can burn your skin, or jump across gaps where you least expect it. But that's kV.

--
Take notice: when this sign is under water, this road is impassable.

It's the current that kills. Not sure on the numbers, but maybe on
the order of 30ma and above can effect the heart rhythm. The human
body has some resistance, X. If you put 240V across that, you're going
to get 2x the current as you do with 120V. But.... That's really a
red herring the way the system works here. To get 240V you'd have to
be across both hot wires, which is extremely unlikely. Most common

You're thinking about the USA.

Mr. Macaw just posted that the two wires coming into his home in the
UK were 240 and 0.

The comparison I had made was between the UK and the USA, and I said I
thought more people died of shocks, per capita, in the UK than the
USA.

is for you to connect between one hot wire and ground, like standing
in water, touching an appliance case, faucet, etc. In that case
you'd still only get 120V. Between each hot and ground you have 120V.
Not sure how it works over there.
That would definitely be true if all Britts had as little regard for
code, the rule of law and safe electrical practices as Macaw does.

The Birdman is an idiot. Just reading some of the stuff he says in this
thread should make me laugh, but it's just so, so sad.


There are a lot of "bodgers" in the UK - and the competency of many of
them leaves a whole lot to be desired. In the UK, Mc Guyver would be
an absolute genius.

On Sun, 6 Mar 2016 16:17:21 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 5:52:15 PM UTC-5, wrote:


With alternating current, there is a feeling of electric shock as long
as contact is made. In contrast, with direct current, there is only a
feeling of shock when the circuit is made or broken. While the contact
is maintained, there is no sensation of shock. Below 300 mA DC rms,
there is no let-go phenomenon because the hand is not involuntarily
clamped. There is a feeling of warmth while the current travels
through the arm. Making or breaking the circuit leads to painful
unpleasant shocks. Above 300 mA, letting go may be impossible.4 The
threshold for ventricular fibrillation for direct current shocks
longer than 2 seconds is 150 mA as compared with 50 mA for 60-Hz
shocks; for shocks shorter than 0.2 seconds, the threshold is the same
as that for 60-HZ shocks, that is, approximately 500 mA.4


Based on my "inability to let go" experience while in the USCG, I don't
think I agree with this statement:

"...with direct current, there is only a feeling of shock when the
circuit is made or broken. While the contact is maintained, there
is no sensation of shock."

I was learning how to work on power supplies using a "training device"
while attending the USCG electronics school. The training device was a
microwave sized 300VDC power supply which was set up to easily
accept failed components that the students had to find via systematic
trouble shooting steps. It was basically an open box so that all the
components were in full view. It weighed in at about 35 lbs.

One of the troubleshooting steps was to remove the built in load from
the power supply to see if the symptoms changed. The proper way to
remove the load was to shut down the power supply, remove a jumper -
a short cable with banana plugs on both ends - and then turn the power
supply back on.

I was a cocky kid and to save time I figured I would just grab the
jumper in the middle of the loop and just yank it out. Unfortunately,
the load side of the jumper came out, but the supply side stayed in.
I had my left forearm resting on the case and the open end of the jumper
came in contact with my hand. (4 decades later and the scars are still
very visible). At that point my arm became the load for the 300VDC supply
and my brain did not like it. I couldn't move my left arm so my brain
told my right arm to push the case away. As soon as my right arm touched
the case, I was stuck. I grabbed the 35 lb unit and lifted it right off
the table screaming "Turn it off! Turn it off!" I absolutely could not
let go and I absolutely felt the electricity flowing through my arms
and chest. It was no "feeling of warmth", it was in every way the
"sensation of shock".

But totally different than an AC shock. You had the muscle clench but
it's totally different from AC.

The lab was set up like a classroom and when I started yelling the
guy in front of me turned around and grabbed the power cord to pull
it out of the power strip on my table. Unfortunately, the power strip
just came up with the cord. The guy next to him slammed the power strip
back down to the table and the cord came out. Once the current stopped
flowing through my chest, I literally threw the power supply down onto
the table. Man, was I ****ed.

They took me to the infirmary and did the whole EKG thing. It turned out
that I was OK, other than being pretty shook up and having some bad burns
on both hands. When I went back to class the next day, a couple of things
had changed:

1 - 2 guys quit electronics school after seeing what happened to me.
2 - All the power strips had been screwed down to the tables. :-)

Anyway, bottom line is that I do not agree that with DC there is "no
sensation of shock" while contact is maintained.

On 3/6/2016 6:43 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 6 Mar 2016 12:52:58 -0500, Stormin Mormon
Why do you think you need to move anything?


CY: Because at least one outlet shows open ground.
Which is an outlet wiring problem. The tester is checing the
connection between neutral and ground. Y&our ground wire is loose,
disconnected, or broken on the circuit to that outlet. NO chance
moving the ground would solve that problem.


Seeing the ground bar not appear to connect
to a ground wire... makes me wonder if the
ground bar is isolated, and therefore not
effective.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On 3/6/2016 6:44 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 6 Mar 2016 12:56:59 -0500, Stormin Mormon
All the common everyday appliances, eg microwave, electric kettle, lamps, vacuums, are 120V here and those are the only outlets distributed around the
house. 240V is used for electric dryers and ovens and it's about the only
place you'd find a 240V receptacle in a typical house. Some might have
it for some shop type gear, in their basement, garage etc too.


I've seen 220 or 240 volt outlets for through
the wall AC. 12,000 BTU per hour and larger,
most often.
They DO exist, but are very uncommon.


i MOSTLY see them in APARTMENTS. Oddly ENOUGH,
some PEOPLE think that 220 VAC is CHEAPER, but
in the USA we pay for WATTS, which is equal for
SIMILAR equipment usage.
--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On Sun, 6 Mar 2016 16:37:37 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 7:04:52 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sun, 06 Mar 2016 16:12:50 -0500, Micky
wrote:

On Sun, 6 Mar 2016 09:12:14 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 10:00:21 AM UTC-5, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Sun, 06 Mar 2016 07:25:01 -0000, Micky wrote:

On Sat, 05 Mar 2016 14:50:19 -0500, wrote:


Over here in the colonies we take that 240v and center tap the
transformer so both ungrounded legs are 120v above ground. That still
gives us the ability to use 240v equipment but most ends up being
120v. I suppose we can blame Thomas Edison for that. He started a fear
campaign against Nick Tesla over AC current, Edison wanted DC and he
said AC was more deadly, to the point of electrocuting an elephant
along with more than a few condemned prisoners ... all with AC.
When he lost the war, the deadly part still stuck and the belief was
that 120 would be safer, still leaving the option of having 240v
equipment.

I thought 240 was indeed more deadly than 120 and that more people
died of shocks, per capita, in the UK than here. How could 240 not
be more deadly than 120?

Isn't it the case that if either of them goes through your heart it can kill you? Anything over 80 volts or something like that is all the same.

The only difference is that much higher voltages can burn your skin, or jump across gaps where you least expect it. But that's kV.

--
Take notice: when this sign is under water, this road is impassable.

It's the current that kills. Not sure on the numbers, but maybe on
the order of 30ma and above can effect the heart rhythm. The human
body has some resistance, X. If you put 240V across that, you're going
to get 2x the current as you do with 120V. But.... That's really a
red herring the way the system works here. To get 240V you'd have to
be across both hot wires, which is extremely unlikely. Most common

You're thinking about the USA.

Mr. Macaw just posted that the two wires coming into his home in the
UK were 240 and 0.

The comparison I had made was between the UK and the USA, and I said I
thought more people died of shocks, per capita, in the UK than the
USA.

is for you to connect between one hot wire and ground, like standing
in water, touching an appliance case, faucet, etc. In that case
you'd still only get 120V. Between each hot and ground you have 120V.
Not sure how it works over there.
That would definitely be true if all Britts had as little regard for
code, the rule of law and safe electrical practices as Macaw does.

The Birdman is an idiot. Just reading some of the stuff he says in this
thread should make me laugh, but it's just so, so sad.


There are a lot of "bodgers" in the UK - and the competency of many of
them leaves a whole lot to be desired. In the UK, Mc Guyver would be
an absolute genius.
I only see the idiot's posts when someone replies to him.
He's definitely a barmy git who's totally lost the plot, as they say
- and as daft as a bush to boot. - a real wazzock fer sure.

On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 8:13:13 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sun, 6 Mar 2016 16:17:21 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 5:52:15 PM UTC-5, wrote:


With alternating current, there is a feeling of electric shock as long
as contact is made. In contrast, with direct current, there is only a
feeling of shock when the circuit is made or broken. While the contact
is maintained, there is no sensation of shock. Below 300 mA DC rms,
there is no let-go phenomenon because the hand is not involuntarily
clamped. There is a feeling of warmth while the current travels
through the arm. Making or breaking the circuit leads to painful
unpleasant shocks. Above 300 mA, letting go may be impossible.4 The
threshold for ventricular fibrillation for direct current shocks
longer than 2 seconds is 150 mA as compared with 50 mA for 60-Hz
shocks; for shocks shorter than 0.2 seconds, the threshold is the same
as that for 60-HZ shocks, that is, approximately 500 mA.4


Based on my "inability to let go" experience while in the USCG, I don't
think I agree with this statement:

"...with direct current, there is only a feeling of shock when the
circuit is made or broken. While the contact is maintained, there
is no sensation of shock."

I was learning how to work on power supplies using a "training device"
while attending the USCG electronics school. The training device was a
microwave sized 300VDC power supply which was set up to easily
accept failed components that the students had to find via systematic
trouble shooting steps. It was basically an open box so that all the
components were in full view. It weighed in at about 35 lbs.

One of the troubleshooting steps was to remove the built in load from
the power supply to see if the symptoms changed. The proper way to
remove the load was to shut down the power supply, remove a jumper -
a short cable with banana plugs on both ends - and then turn the power
supply back on.

I was a cocky kid and to save time I figured I would just grab the
jumper in the middle of the loop and just yank it out. Unfortunately,
the load side of the jumper came out, but the supply side stayed in.
I had my left forearm resting on the case and the open end of the jumper
came in contact with my hand. (4 decades later and the scars are still
very visible). At that point my arm became the load for the 300VDC supply
and my brain did not like it. I couldn't move my left arm so my brain
told my right arm to push the case away. As soon as my right arm touched
the case, I was stuck. I grabbed the 35 lb unit and lifted it right off
the table screaming "Turn it off! Turn it off!" I absolutely could not
let go and I absolutely felt the electricity flowing through my arms
and chest. It was no "feeling of warmth", it was in every way the
"sensation of shock".

But totally different than an AC shock. You had the muscle clench but
it's totally different from AC.

The lines I object to are not related to the muscle clench. I specifically
quoted the lines related to no sensation of shock while contact is
maintained. The article says that no shock will be felt and I sure as
hell felt the shock during the entire time I maintained contact. Up one
arm, across my chest and back down the other arm.



The lab was set up like a classroom and when I started yelling the
guy in front of me turned around and grabbed the power cord to pull
it out of the power strip on my table. Unfortunately, the power strip
just came up with the cord. The guy next to him slammed the power strip
back down to the table and the cord came out. Once the current stopped
flowing through my chest, I literally threw the power supply down onto
the table. Man, was I ****ed.

They took me to the infirmary and did the whole EKG thing. It turned out
that I was OK, other than being pretty shook up and having some bad burns
on both hands. When I went back to class the next day, a couple of things
had changed:

1 - 2 guys quit electronics school after seeing what happened to me.
2 - All the power strips had been screwed down to the tables. :-)

Anyway, bottom line is that I do not agree that with DC there is "no
sensation of shock" while contact is maintained.

On Sun, 6 Mar 2016 18:28:47 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 8:13:13 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sun, 6 Mar 2016 16:17:21 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 5:52:15 PM UTC-5, wrote:


With alternating current, there is a feeling of electric shock as long
as contact is made. In contrast, with direct current, there is only a
feeling of shock when the circuit is made or broken. While the contact
is maintained, there is no sensation of shock. Below 300 mA DC rms,
there is no let-go phenomenon because the hand is not involuntarily
clamped. There is a feeling of warmth while the current travels
through the arm. Making or breaking the circuit leads to painful
unpleasant shocks. Above 300 mA, letting go may be impossible.4 The
threshold for ventricular fibrillation for direct current shocks
longer than 2 seconds is 150 mA as compared with 50 mA for 60-Hz
shocks; for shocks shorter than 0.2 seconds, the threshold is the same
as that for 60-HZ shocks, that is, approximately 500 mA.4


Based on my "inability to let go" experience while in the USCG, I don't
think I agree with this statement:

"...with direct current, there is only a feeling of shock when the
circuit is made or broken. While the contact is maintained, there
is no sensation of shock."

I was learning how to work on power supplies using a "training device"
while attending the USCG electronics school. The training device was a
microwave sized 300VDC power supply which was set up to easily
accept failed components that the students had to find via systematic
trouble shooting steps. It was basically an open box so that all the
components were in full view. It weighed in at about 35 lbs.

One of the troubleshooting steps was to remove the built in load from
the power supply to see if the symptoms changed. The proper way to
remove the load was to shut down the power supply, remove a jumper -
a short cable with banana plugs on both ends - and then turn the power
supply back on.

I was a cocky kid and to save time I figured I would just grab the
jumper in the middle of the loop and just yank it out. Unfortunately,
the load side of the jumper came out, but the supply side stayed in.
I had my left forearm resting on the case and the open end of the jumper
came in contact with my hand. (4 decades later and the scars are still
very visible). At that point my arm became the load for the 300VDC supply
and my brain did not like it. I couldn't move my left arm so my brain
told my right arm to push the case away. As soon as my right arm touched
the case, I was stuck. I grabbed the 35 lb unit and lifted it right off
the table screaming "Turn it off! Turn it off!" I absolutely could not
let go and I absolutely felt the electricity flowing through my arms
and chest. It was no "feeling of warmth", it was in every way the
"sensation of shock".

But totally different than an AC shock. You had the muscle clench but
it's totally different from AC.

The lines I object to are not related to the muscle clench. I specifically
quoted the lines related to no sensation of shock while contact is
maintained. The article says that no shock will be felt and I sure as
hell felt the shock during the entire time I maintained contact. Up one
arm, across my chest and back down the other arm.



The lab was set up like a classroom and when I started yelling the
guy in front of me turned around and grabbed the power cord to pull
it out of the power strip on my table. Unfortunately, the power strip
just came up with the cord. The guy next to him slammed the power strip
back down to the table and the cord came out. Once the current stopped
flowing through my chest, I literally threw the power supply down onto
the table. Man, was I ****ed.

They took me to the infirmary and did the whole EKG thing. It turned out
that I was OK, other than being pretty shook up and having some bad burns
on both hands. When I went back to class the next day, a couple of things
had changed:

1 - 2 guys quit electronics school after seeing what happened to me.
2 - All the power strips had been screwed down to the tables. :-)

Anyway, bottom line is that I do not agree that with DC there is "no
sensation of shock" while contact is maintained.

I've had ac and dc shocks - and I will say for the same
voltage/current capacity, AC hurts one hell of a lot more than DC. DC
hurts like hell when you get hit, and again when you get off of it. In
between there is pain - but mostly due to constant muscle contraction
- and there is heat.

With AC it just plain hurts like hell - period.. Along with the pain
is the continuous pulsing of the muscle contractions - with 50 or 60
hz AC - a bit different with 400 or higher frequency - and even worse
with something like 25 hz. Lets just say it "hertz"

On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 11:05:15 PM UTC-6, wrote:
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 19:14:46 -0800 (PST), Uncle Monster
wrote:

On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 8:39:57 PM UTC-6, wrote:
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 16:56:37 -0800 (PST), Uncle Monster
wrote:

On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 2:08:48 PM UTC-6, wrote:
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 12:03:00 -0800 (PST), Uncle Monster
wrote:

On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 1:32:45 PM UTC-6, wrote:
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 11:04:44 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 12:29:35 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 09:52:45 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 3/4/2016 9:39 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 7:00:14 AM UTC-5, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 3/3/2016 11:47 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 3 Mar 2016 21:40:14 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

I noticed a friends's Square D panel, the
neutral and ground (from the utility company
feed) are connected to the same bar. And less
than an inch apart.

Shouldn't the ground be connected to the
separate ground bar?

Should I move the ground wire?

No if this is the service disconnect enclosure where the ground
electrode conductor lands and the main disconnect resides they will be
on the same bus bar.


The question is about the circuit breaker panel
in the cellar. There is a main breaker, but I'd
not call it a main disconnect.


What would you call the main disconnect?

Is there another disconnect between the pole/underground wires and the
panel? If not, the main breaker in the panel is also the main disconnect.


Mains = wire coming in from the power company.
Main disconnect = a disconnect outside the house.
(yes, I've seen these before.)
Main breaker = the breaker that shuts off power
to all the smaller breakers.

I do not call a breaker in a panel a "main
disconnect".

I wouldn't either, I would call it the service disconnect if it was
the first disconnecting means after the service point. (the place
where the utility's wires connect to yours)

Not pushing back, just curious...

Do you not call it a "main disconnect" based on some official terminology or
just based on your preference? The reason I ask is this:

If I DAGS for images of Main Disconnect or images of Service Disconnect,
I get a combination of images that use either of those terms, and even a
Main Service Disconnect thrown in every now and then.

Some images come from Home Inspection sites, some come from .gov sites,
etc. There doesn't seem to be a "standard".

The NEC refers to it as the "service disconnecting means" and that
commonly gets rounded off to service disconnect, main disconnect or
other things. As long as we understand what we are talking about it is
just semantics.

The main bonding jumper (the place where the neutral gets grounded)
must be in the same enclosure where the service disconnect resides.
Some AHJs have ruled that it can be anywhere in "service equipment"
and allow it in the meter can if the ground electrode conductor lands
there too. This is because most meter cans ground the neutral.

I am not sure how they justify it because 250.24(B) seems pretty
unambiguous

(B) Main Bonding Jumper. For a grounded system, an unspliced
main bonding jumper shall be used to connect the
equipment grounding conductor(s) and the service-disconnect
enclosure to the grounded conductor within the enclosure for
each service disconnect in accordance with 250.28.

The important thing is that the neutral does not get regrounded after
the place where the grounding electrode lands. There used to be an
exception for sub panels in another building with a grounding
electrode system but that went away during the Clinton administration.

I haven't looked anything up but the bonding screw for the ground bar. Is it only screwed into the main breaker panel enclosure or is it also required for the sub panels? O_o

[8~{} Uncle Panel Monster

You only use that screw in the service disconnect enclosure. In a sub
panel you install the supplemental grounding bus and bring the
equipment grounding conductor to that (4 wire feeder)
The neutral bus remains isolated.

Perhaps I phrased it incorrectly. Does the sub panel can/housing have to grounded? I may have the wrong vision in my head but I think I imagined that the ground bar was in an insulated holder like the neutral bar but now I remember the grounding bar being attached directly to the can/housing. Drain bamage, not enough sleep. Sometimes I can't spell kat. o_O

[8~{} Uncle Confused Monster
The can/housing of ALL panels needs to be grounded, as does every
switch and outlet box, as well as all utility boxes. ONLY in the
"main/service disconnect" may the neutral and ground be directly
connected. The neutral bonding screw or jumper connects the neutral
buss to the case ground.

That's what I got confused. I had a rough night and didn't sleep well because of the crud I'm still fighting. I coughed so hard, I almost passed out. I'd always wondered why manufacturers didn't mount the ground bar to the can when they installed the buss bar assembly but I've installed ground bars in different places inside the can depending on how I was wiring the panel. Sometimes I installed a ground bar on either side to make for a neater wiring job. Some panels have a neutral bar on either side. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Bar Monster
My square D has split neutral and about 6 ground blocks - makes it a
real treat to wire.

I preferred it when I didn't have to run all the neutrals and grounds to one side of the can. In my opinion that's a very messy way to wire a panel. I've always been compelled to do a neat job because it made service and rework much easier for me or anyone else who happened to work on the breaker panel. It made it no problem to trace a wire. One thing I always did was to bring the wires in and run them to the opposite end of the can then loop them back up to the individual breaker. When any rework was ever done to move a breaker to another position in the panel, no jumpers were ever needed. There were times when I had to return later and mount a latching contactor for a fire shutdown next to the panel and the wires were long enough to pull into the contactor can from the panel. Of course that was commercial wiring but someone could find it useful for home automation. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Can Monster

On Saturday, March 5, 2016 at 7:39:09 AM UTC-6, trader_4 wrote:
On Saturday, March 5, 2016 at 7:37:39 AM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 9:36:05 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 14:56:02 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 5:39:39 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 09:52:45 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 3/4/2016 9:39 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 7:00:14 AM UTC-5, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 3/3/2016 11:47 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 3 Mar 2016 21:40:14 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

I noticed a friends's Square D panel, the
neutral and ground (from the utility company
feed) are connected to the same bar. And less
than an inch apart.

Shouldn't the ground be connected to the
separate ground bar?

Should I move the ground wire?

No if this is the service disconnect enclosure where the ground
electrode conductor lands and the main disconnect resides they will be
on the same bus bar.


The question is about the circuit breaker panel
in the cellar. There is a main breaker, but I'd
not call it a main disconnect.


What would you call the main disconnect?

Is there another disconnect between the pole/underground wires and the
panel? If not, the main breaker in the panel is also the main disconnect.


Mains = wire coming in from the power company.
Main disconnect = a disconnect outside the house.
(yes, I've seen these before.)
Main breaker = the breaker that shuts off power
to all the smaller breakers.

I do not call a breaker in a panel a "main
disconnect".
Then you are not correct in your terminalogy.
The main breaker in the panel IS the main disconnect, except in some
"redneck bungalow subdivisions" where there is a switch on the pole to
disconnect the trailer from the grid .

Please replace "IS" with "may be".
No I won't. But I will change it to the main breaker in the panel is
most likely the main disconnect.

"Most likely" is just a stronger version of "may be", so I'll accept
that.

execept in some rare situations where
there is a switch on the pole to disconnect the panel from the grid.

Please change "execept" (sic) to "For example".

"Except" implies a singular instance, while "for example" indicates that
there is more than one case that differs from the norm.

There could be a service disconnect external to a distribution panel
and then a "main breaker" in the distribution panel itself.

The most likely exception would be where "central metering" is used.

See, there you go! :-) "most likely exception" leaves room for more than
one exception.

What he posted is still wrong, after he's had an opportunity to review
it several time. He keeps saying a service disconnect that
isn't the main breaker in the panel has to be on a pole, which it does not. But heh, he won't listen to me because I'm supposed to be a jerk.

You're not a jerk, you're just opinionated. There's nothing wrong with having a different point of view as long as you don't blow up the house of someone you disagree with. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Argue Monster

On Saturday, March 5, 2016 at 3:11:09 PM UTC-6, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Sat, 05 Mar 2016 19:50:19 -0000, wrote:

On Sat, 05 Mar 2016 17:52:43 -0000, "Mr Macaw" wrote:

240V and 0V. Neutral and ground are both connected to the 0V line, which is an earth spike at the 11kV to 240V substation (transformer) across the road.

Over here in the colonies we take that 240v and center tap the
transformer so both ungrounded legs are 120v above ground. That still
gives us the ability to use 240v equipment but most ends up being
120v. I suppose we can blame Thomas Edison for that. He started a fear
campaign against Nick Tesla over AC current, Edison wanted DC and he
said AC was more deadly, to the point of electrocuting an elephant
along with more than a few condemned prisoners ... all with AC.
When he lost the war, the deadly part still stuck and the belief was
that 120 would be safer, still leaving the option of having 240v
equipment.

More wires and outlets all over the house, inconvenient I guess.

It is interesting that you only have 11kva transformers. Typically
here, a single home would be on a 25kva, the smallest generally
available. Two houses get a 37 and 3 houses would get a 50.
That is about the max on a single transformer. Distribution will be
13kv to ground (3 p wye)

This is a 50
http://gfretwell.com/electrical/50%2...ransformer.jpg
This is the typical installation
http://gfretwell.com/electrical/transformer.jpg

You can see 2 of the 3 drops going off to the houses

No, 11kV, not 11kVA. I meant the voltage going into their primaries.

We actually have much bigger ones than yours then, the one opposite me serves about 100 houses. It's very large and when it was replaced I saw them unload it off a flatbed lorry, it took up half the trailer. In case flatbed lorry means nothing over there, this big: http://www.truckexporter.co.uk/sites...?itok=2iIv3msv
--

Your transformers are larger because a larger core is necessary due to the fact that you are on the 50hz frequency standard. In an aircraft you may find a 400hz AC electrical power system and the transformers are very small compared to what is found in 50/60hz equipment. Of course you won't see big transformers on an aircraft but you get the idea. I must wonder what a 400hz power distribution system would be like for a country? Tesla wanted to distribute power to homes and businesses without wires. I wonder what frequency his wireless power system operated on. Darn, there goes my mind off on a tangent again....SQUIRREL! o_O

[8~{} Uncle Frequency Monster

On 3/6/2016 10:25 PM, Uncle Monster wrote:
...there goes my mind off on a tangent again....SQUIRREL! o_O


shhhhhhhhhhhh!! The dog barks like crazy if we even HINT at that word.
We have to call them 'tree rats'.

--
Maggie

On Saturday, March 5, 2016 at 3:12:57 PM UTC-6, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Sat, 05 Mar 2016 20:46:36 -0000, DerbyDad03 wrote:

On Saturday, March 5, 2016 at 2:50:39 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sat, 05 Mar 2016 17:52:43 -0000, "Mr Macaw" wrote:

240V and 0V. Neutral and ground are both connected to the 0V line, which is an earth spike at the 11kV to 240V substation (transformer) across the road.

Over here in the colonies we take that 240v and center tap the
transformer so both ungrounded legs are 120v above ground. That still
gives us the ability to use 240v equipment but most ends up being
120v. I suppose we can blame Thomas Edison for that. He started a fear
campaign against Nick Tesla over AC current, Edison wanted DC and he
said AC was more deadly, to the point of electrocuting an elephant
along with more than a few condemned prisoners ... all with AC.
When he lost the war, the deadly part still stuck and the belief was
that 120 would be safer, still leaving the option of having 240v
equipment.

It is interesting that you only have 11kva transformers. Typically
here, a single home would be on a 25kva, the smallest generally
available. Two houses get a 37 and 3 houses would get a 50.
That is about the max on a single transformer. Distribution will be
13kv to ground (3 p wye)

This is a 50
http://gfretwell.com/electrical/50%2...ransformer.jpg
This is the typical installation
http://gfretwell.com/electrical/transformer.jpg

You can see 2 of the 3 drops going off to the houses

And those 50's blow up quite spectacularly during ice storms.

What is an "ice storm"? Is that the same as a "hail storm"? Our transformers never seem to break.

5 days without power. Gave me the chance to start the aquarium over
from scratch. :-(

Surely you could have found enough juice to heat an aquarium?
--

Here in The U.S. even down South, on some occasions in the winter if the the temperature is just right and the planets are in alignment, we will have a winter rain storm where the rain freezes and builds up on the power lines and trees. The weight of the ice can cause power lines to snap or make a tree fall on a power line and bring it down. Such weather has come to be called an "Ice Storm". When I was a young lad, I resided in North Alabamastan where one winter, there was a horrendous ice storm that knocked out power and took down a lot of trees over a wide area. It's really the only extremely bad ice storm I can remember and it's from the middle of the last century.. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Ice Monster

On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 11:44:47 PM UTC-5, Uncle Monster wrote:
On Saturday, March 5, 2016 at 3:12:57 PM UTC-6, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Sat, 05 Mar 2016 20:46:36 -0000, DerbyDad03 wrote:

On Saturday, March 5, 2016 at 2:50:39 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sat, 05 Mar 2016 17:52:43 -0000, "Mr Macaw" wrote:

240V and 0V. Neutral and ground are both connected to the 0V line, which is an earth spike at the 11kV to 240V substation (transformer) across the road.

Over here in the colonies we take that 240v and center tap the
transformer so both ungrounded legs are 120v above ground. That still
gives us the ability to use 240v equipment but most ends up being
120v. I suppose we can blame Thomas Edison for that. He started a fear
campaign against Nick Tesla over AC current, Edison wanted DC and he
said AC was more deadly, to the point of electrocuting an elephant
along with more than a few condemned prisoners ... all with AC.
When he lost the war, the deadly part still stuck and the belief was
that 120 would be safer, still leaving the option of having 240v
equipment.

It is interesting that you only have 11kva transformers. Typically
here, a single home would be on a 25kva, the smallest generally
available. Two houses get a 37 and 3 houses would get a 50.
That is about the max on a single transformer. Distribution will be
13kv to ground (3 p wye)

This is a 50
http://gfretwell.com/electrical/50%2...ransformer.jpg
This is the typical installation
http://gfretwell.com/electrical/transformer.jpg

You can see 2 of the 3 drops going off to the houses

And those 50's blow up quite spectacularly during ice storms.

What is an "ice storm"? Is that the same as a "hail storm"? Our transformers never seem to break.

5 days without power. Gave me the chance to start the aquarium over
from scratch. :-(

Surely you could have found enough juice to heat an aquarium?
--

Here in The U.S. even down South, on some occasions in the winter if the the temperature is just right and the planets are in alignment, we will have a winter rain storm where the rain freezes and builds up on the power lines and trees. The weight of the ice can cause power lines to snap or make a tree fall on a power line and bring it down. Such weather has come to be called an "Ice Storm". When I was a young lad, I resided in North Alabamastan where one winter, there was a horrendous ice storm that knocked out power and took down a lot of trees over a wide area. It's really the only extremely bad ice storm I can remember and it's from the middle of the last century. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Ice Monster

I should not have used the term "ice storm". My bad.

They now refer to them as an "ice event" because the ice doesn't "storm",
it forms. You can have a rain storm or a snow storm, in that the rain or
snow is the precipitation.

In an ice event, the rain is "supercooled" but not frozen. When it hits a
surface that is at or below 32°F, it begins to form a layer of ice.
Therefore it is an event (something that happens) not a storm.

If the raindrops freeze while still falling, it is known as sleet. There
can be situations where you will have sleet and an ice event at the same
time, but they are 2 different things. Some rain has frozen, some has not.

The worst ice event I experienced was back when they were still called ice
storms. A bunch of us used chain saws to clear our road so the utility
trucks could get to our power lines easier. I neatly ran the lines to my house
inside the pickets of my board-on-board fence so that they were clear and
off the ground. The utility hooked me up 2 days before my neighbors who had
left their lines buried under branches.

Cousin I'm-Glad-Spring-Is-Coming Monster

On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 6:01:32 PM UTC-5, Mr Macaw wrote:


A factor that makes a large difference in the injury sustained in
low-voltage shocks is the inability to let go. The amount of current
in the arm that will cause the hand to involuntarily grip strongly is
referred to as the let-go current.7 If a person's fingers are wrapped
around a large cable or energized vacuum cleaner handle, for example,
most adults will be able to let go with a current of less than 6 mA.
At 22 mA, more than 99% of adults will not be able to let go. The pain
associated with the let-go current is so severe that young, motivated
volunteers could tolerate it for only a few seconds.

I call "********". I once picked up a wall socket which I'd used as a trailing socket, and it was wired backwards (earlier on, not by me), so when I'd switched it off, I'd disconnected the neutral and not the live. Hence I got 240V through my hand from live to earth. All it did was warm up my hand. I let go very easily.


It also doesn't make sense as written. Volunteers could only tolerate it for
a few seconds? How long does it take to let go?




With alternating current, there is a feeling of electric shock as long
as contact is made. In contrast, with direct current, there is only a
feeling of shock when the circuit is made or broken.

Incorrect again. Place a PP3 9V battery on your tongue. That will sting continuously until you remove it.

--

Agree, been there, done that too.

Back to the main panel disconnect question.

My house always had the meter outside and the main panel inside, with the main disconnect on the panel.

When an upgrade was done to the main panel, an extra breaker was added outside just below the meter. The electrician said this was a code requirement, because wire between the meter and the panel needed to be protected because of the location.

Did this new breaker now become the service disconnect? And if so, is the main panel now noncompliant for having ground and neutral bonded?

On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 6:18:03 PM UTC-5, Mr Macaw wrote:

There are no 240 volt "outlets" in a typical north american home. Only
high current items such as driers and ranges run on 240 volts - and
they have specific connectors for the amperage of the appliance. A
range uses a different plug than a drier., and those connectors are
installed only where that specific appliance will be installed.

So rearranging your house is a bugger then. No thanks.


I've lived in a lot of houses and never had the need to rearrange where
a 240V appliance was. The only typical appliances like that which are on
receptacles are electric dryers and stoves/ovens/ranges. Never seen the
need to put the dryer or stove in a different spot. And if I did, the
dryer is almost always right next to the washer. The washer needs water
lines, a drain. The dryer needs a vent to the outside. Don't the ones
in the UK vent outside? I'm just not feeling the need to be able to
plug my dryer in anywere in the house. And a lot of people have gas
dryers too. Should we put gas outlets all through the house too, in
case someone wants to dry their clothes in the living room, while they
fire up their turkey fryer there too?


Out tea kettles are generally 120 volt and 1500 watts, +/- and can
heat a cup of water for tea in about 45 seconds to 2 minutes.

So if more than one of you wants a cup, or you want a large mug of coffee, you have to wait 5 minutes? That is unacceptable.


It doesn't take 5 mins to do a cup at 120V. I can do a liter in a little
more than that. If you really want it fast, we have instant hot water dispensers that you can install under the sink. They have a tank, ~ 1/2 gal, that is constantly hot. I stated previously that I agree having 240V
for that would be nice, it would cut down the time. But I think you're
way over doing how important it is.


Heating a quart takes a bit longer - and some heat faster than others.
What about an iron? A portable fan-heater or convector heater? There are
loads of appliances which need a lot of power that you may wish to move
about.

Portable heaters generally run 1500 watts on high, and 750 or 850 on
low. Irons are generally 1200 watts. They do not heat up immediately,
but mabee the "colonials" have a bit more patience then folks from
"the old country"

Good enough to maintain a room temperature, but useless for heating one up in under a decade, or drying out something very wet.


Please. It doesn't take a decade to heat up a room. Also, as pointed
out previously, few people use them that way. We mostly have central
heat. Some people, not many thought, use them to supplement that in one
room, so they can keep the rest of the house set lower.




If we're not in the middle of nowhere, heating, hot water, and cooking is
done by gas (it's 3 times cheaper), so we don't use that much electricity.
Showers, washing machines, and dishwashers tend to heat their own water, so
those and a tumble dryer (our weather is very damp) are about the only
things that wil use much.

Here we don't generally use "widow-maker" showers

I had to look that up, and got this image:
https://theuntilmatters.files.wordpr...dow-maker2.jpg

Although ours don't look like that, those ones are cheap **** you get on campsites, ours do heat the water with electricity, in a box on the wall. Why would you think that was dangerous?


I agree with that part. I assumed what you meant was an on demand,
point-of-use type water heater. They are safe, as long as they are
correctly installed.



And current code requires several 20 amp circuits for the kitchen.

Now you see that's convenience not safety.


It's both. Unless you think having an electric fryer, electric kettle,
etc on cords running God knows where, that can be tripped over, run to
a non-GFCI outlet, etc is safe. And "convenience" is a stretch. I'd
say it's "functionality" and safety.

On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 6:38:12 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sun, 6 Mar 2016 12:20:17 -0500, "Ralph Mowery"
wrote:



Some of the code is way above ,but guess the government is trying to prevent
people from doing stupid things. They are regulating how hot the coffee can
be in restraunts now. Seems that a while aback someone got some hot coffee
at a drive through and spilled it on their selves and got burnt and sued and
won about 5 or 6 million dollars for that.


They were awarded a huge amount (2.68 million, i believe), but
McDonalds appealed and the payment was significantly reduced, with the
woman eventually recieving $640,000.


And there were extenuating circumstances too. The plaintiff showed that
McDonalds knew for a long time that their coffee was far hotter than
coffee at similar places, dangerously hot, etc and did nothing about it.
It was so hot that it melted the nylon the woman was wearing, as I recall.

On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 8:14:52 PM UTC-5, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 3/6/2016 6:43 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 6 Mar 2016 12:52:58 -0500, Stormin Mormon
Why do you think you need to move anything?


CY: Because at least one outlet shows open ground.
Which is an outlet wiring problem. The tester is checing the
connection between neutral and ground. Y&our ground wire is loose,
disconnected, or broken on the circuit to that outlet. NO chance
moving the ground would solve that problem.


Seeing the ground bar not appear to connect
to a ground wire... makes me wonder if the
ground bar is isolated, and therefore not
effective.


Reading through your description again, that's possible. From what you
posted, the neutral is tied to earth ground at the panel, or appears to
be anyway. The ground bar is a separate bar, but should be tied to the
neutral bar. How that is done probably varies from panel to panel
and it's optional, because in a subpanel, they are kept separate.

On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 8:22:10 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sun, 6 Mar 2016 16:37:37 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 7:04:52 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sun, 06 Mar 2016 16:12:50 -0500, Micky
wrote:

On Sun, 6 Mar 2016 09:12:14 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 10:00:21 AM UTC-5, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Sun, 06 Mar 2016 07:25:01 -0000, Micky wrote:

On Sat, 05 Mar 2016 14:50:19 -0500, wrote:


Over here in the colonies we take that 240v and center tap the
transformer so both ungrounded legs are 120v above ground. That still
gives us the ability to use 240v equipment but most ends up being
120v. I suppose we can blame Thomas Edison for that. He started a fear
campaign against Nick Tesla over AC current, Edison wanted DC and he
said AC was more deadly, to the point of electrocuting an elephant
along with more than a few condemned prisoners ... all with AC.
When he lost the war, the deadly part still stuck and the belief was
that 120 would be safer, still leaving the option of having 240v
equipment.

I thought 240 was indeed more deadly than 120 and that more people
died of shocks, per capita, in the UK than here. How could 240 not
be more deadly than 120?

Isn't it the case that if either of them goes through your heart it can kill you? Anything over 80 volts or something like that is all the same.

The only difference is that much higher voltages can burn your skin, or jump across gaps where you least expect it. But that's kV.

--
Take notice: when this sign is under water, this road is impassable.

It's the current that kills. Not sure on the numbers, but maybe on
the order of 30ma and above can effect the heart rhythm. The human
body has some resistance, X. If you put 240V across that, you're going
to get 2x the current as you do with 120V. But.... That's really a
red herring the way the system works here. To get 240V you'd have to
be across both hot wires, which is extremely unlikely. Most common

You're thinking about the USA.

Mr. Macaw just posted that the two wires coming into his home in the
UK were 240 and 0.

The comparison I had made was between the UK and the USA, and I said I
thought more people died of shocks, per capita, in the UK than the
USA.

is for you to connect between one hot wire and ground, like standing
in water, touching an appliance case, faucet, etc. In that case
you'd still only get 120V. Between each hot and ground you have 120V.
Not sure how it works over there.
That would definitely be true if all Britts had as little regard for
code, the rule of law and safe electrical practices as Macaw does.

The Birdman is an idiot. Just reading some of the stuff he says in this
thread should make me laugh, but it's just so, so sad.


There are a lot of "bodgers" in the UK - and the competency of many of
them leaves a whole lot to be desired. In the UK, Mc Guyver would be
an absolute genius.
I only see the idiot's posts when someone replies to him.
He's definitely a barmy git who's totally lost the plot, as they say
- and as daft as a bush to boot. - a real wazzock fer sure.

At the rate you're blocking people, pretty soon you'll just be
talking to yourself. Which helps explain why you're wrong so often.
You just listen to yourself.

On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 9:45:09 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sun, 6 Mar 2016 18:28:47 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 8:13:13 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sun, 6 Mar 2016 16:17:21 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 5:52:15 PM UTC-5, wrote:


With alternating current, there is a feeling of electric shock as long
as contact is made. In contrast, with direct current, there is only a
feeling of shock when the circuit is made or broken. While the contact
is maintained, there is no sensation of shock. Below 300 mA DC rms,
there is no let-go phenomenon because the hand is not involuntarily
clamped. There is a feeling of warmth while the current travels
through the arm. Making or breaking the circuit leads to painful
unpleasant shocks. Above 300 mA, letting go may be impossible.4 The
threshold for ventricular fibrillation for direct current shocks
longer than 2 seconds is 150 mA as compared with 50 mA for 60-Hz
shocks; for shocks shorter than 0.2 seconds, the threshold is the same
as that for 60-HZ shocks, that is, approximately 500 mA.4


Based on my "inability to let go" experience while in the USCG, I don't
think I agree with this statement:

"...with direct current, there is only a feeling of shock when the
circuit is made or broken. While the contact is maintained, there
is no sensation of shock."

I was learning how to work on power supplies using a "training device"
while attending the USCG electronics school. The training device was a
microwave sized 300VDC power supply which was set up to easily
accept failed components that the students had to find via systematic
trouble shooting steps. It was basically an open box so that all the
components were in full view. It weighed in at about 35 lbs.

One of the troubleshooting steps was to remove the built in load from
the power supply to see if the symptoms changed. The proper way to
remove the load was to shut down the power supply, remove a jumper -
a short cable with banana plugs on both ends - and then turn the power
supply back on.

I was a cocky kid and to save time I figured I would just grab the
jumper in the middle of the loop and just yank it out. Unfortunately,
the load side of the jumper came out, but the supply side stayed in.
I had my left forearm resting on the case and the open end of the jumper
came in contact with my hand. (4 decades later and the scars are still
very visible). At that point my arm became the load for the 300VDC supply
and my brain did not like it. I couldn't move my left arm so my brain
told my right arm to push the case away. As soon as my right arm touched
the case, I was stuck. I grabbed the 35 lb unit and lifted it right off
the table screaming "Turn it off! Turn it off!" I absolutely could not
let go and I absolutely felt the electricity flowing through my arms
and chest. It was no "feeling of warmth", it was in every way the
"sensation of shock".

But totally different than an AC shock. You had the muscle clench but
it's totally different from AC.

The lines I object to are not related to the muscle clench. I specifically
quoted the lines related to no sensation of shock while contact is
maintained. The article says that no shock will be felt and I sure as
hell felt the shock during the entire time I maintained contact. Up one
arm, across my chest and back down the other arm.



The lab was set up like a classroom and when I started yelling the
guy in front of me turned around and grabbed the power cord to pull
it out of the power strip on my table. Unfortunately, the power strip
just came up with the cord. The guy next to him slammed the power strip
back down to the table and the cord came out. Once the current stopped
flowing through my chest, I literally threw the power supply down onto
the table. Man, was I ****ed.

They took me to the infirmary and did the whole EKG thing. It turned out
that I was OK, other than being pretty shook up and having some bad burns
on both hands. When I went back to class the next day, a couple of things
had changed:

1 - 2 guys quit electronics school after seeing what happened to me.
2 - All the power strips had been screwed down to the tables. :-)

Anyway, bottom line is that I do not agree that with DC there is "no
sensation of shock" while contact is maintained.

I've had ac and dc shocks - and I will say for the same
voltage/current capacity, AC hurts one hell of a lot more than DC. DC
hurts like hell when you get hit, and again when you get off of it. In
between there is pain - but mostly due to constant muscle contraction
- and there is heat.

With AC it just plain hurts like hell - period.. Along with the pain
is the continuous pulsing of the muscle contractions - with 50 or 60
hz AC - a bit different with 400 or higher frequency - and even worse
with something like 25 hz. Lets just say it "hertz"

Clare probably knows more about getting shocked from personal
experience than anyone else here, given how he's wrong on electrical
questions half the time.

In ,
Stormin Mormon typed:
On 3/5/2016 2:40 PM, TomR wrote:
In ,
Stormin Mormon typed:

Anyone wish to answer the OP's OQ?

Hey, Opie (err..ah.., I mean OP),

Your question was answered many times, and then answered again after
you posted more info about what you apparently incorrectly
considered to be a "service disconnect" on the outside -- the meter
box. While I know you can be quite a character here sometimes, it is not
really like you to not realize that your original question was
already answered many times over.

Makes me wonder if you are having a bad day, or a bad week, there in
Mayberry :-)

I'm having a bad week. A totally, really bad week.

Lot of family dynamics going on. And none of it
is at all good or pleasant. My life is making some
major changes. Stress level is some where between
high and extreme.

Sorry to hear that. Life can be tough sometimes.

On Sun, 6 Mar 2016 22:39:20 -0600, Muggles
wrote:

On 3/6/2016 10:25 PM, Uncle Monster wrote:
...there goes my mind off on a tangent again....SQUIRREL! o_O


shhhhhhhhhhhh!! The dog barks like crazy if we even HINT at that word.
We have to call them 'tree rats'.

We go the other way so we don't scare the tourists. We call rattus
rattus the "Palmetto Squirrel".

In real life a squirrel is just a rat with a bushy tail and a
publicist.

On Mon, 7 Mar 2016 06:42:28 -0800 (PST), TimR
wrote:

Back to the main panel disconnect question.

My house always had the meter outside and the main panel inside, with the main disconnect on the panel.

When an upgrade was done to the main panel, an extra breaker was added outside just below the meter. The electrician said this was a code requirement, because wire between the meter and the panel needed to be protected because of the location.

Did this new breaker now become the service disconnect? And if so, is the main panel now noncompliant for having ground and neutral bonded?

Yes they should have pulled in a 4 wire feeder and separated the
neutral and ground.
The issue of how far the SE is running inside the house before it
needs protection is really undefined. Inspectors in the same
jurisdictions may even disagree.
On one extreme some say a few feet, as directly it can be run, using
SE cable, is just fine.
Others say they want a back to back installation with the wire simply
passing through the wall in a short pipe nipple.
The most extreme interpretation pretty much wants an outside
disconnect no matter what.

This is the code
230.70(A)(1) Readily Accessible Location. The service disconnecting
means shall be installed at a readily accessible location either
outside of a building or structure or inside nearest the point of
entrance of the service conductors.

On Mon, 7 Mar 2016 06:42:28 -0800 (PST), TimR
wrote:

Back to the main panel disconnect question.

My house always had the meter outside and the main panel inside, with the main disconnect on the panel.

When an upgrade was done to the main panel, an extra breaker was added outside just below the meter. The electrician said this was a code requirement, because wire between the meter and the panel needed to be protected because of the location.

Did this new breaker now become the service disconnect? And if so, is the main panel now noncompliant for having ground and neutral bonded?
Don't know what code the electrician was going by, so I can't say for
sure - but IF the neutral and ground were not bonded together at the
outside breaker, the bonded panel definitely meets code and the
outside breaker is not considered to be a "service disconnect"

How much cable is there between the outside breaker and the panel???

On Monday, March 7, 2016 at 7:49:58 AM UTC-6, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 11:44:47 PM UTC-5, Uncle Monster wrote:
On Saturday, March 5, 2016 at 3:12:57 PM UTC-6, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Sat, 05 Mar 2016 20:46:36 -0000, DerbyDad03 wrote:

On Saturday, March 5, 2016 at 2:50:39 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sat, 05 Mar 2016 17:52:43 -0000, "Mr Macaw" wrote:

240V and 0V. Neutral and ground are both connected to the 0V line, which is an earth spike at the 11kV to 240V substation (transformer) across the road.

Over here in the colonies we take that 240v and center tap the
transformer so both ungrounded legs are 120v above ground. That still
gives us the ability to use 240v equipment but most ends up being
120v. I suppose we can blame Thomas Edison for that. He started a fear
campaign against Nick Tesla over AC current, Edison wanted DC and he
said AC was more deadly, to the point of electrocuting an elephant
along with more than a few condemned prisoners ... all with AC.
When he lost the war, the deadly part still stuck and the belief was
that 120 would be safer, still leaving the option of having 240v
equipment.

It is interesting that you only have 11kva transformers. Typically
here, a single home would be on a 25kva, the smallest generally
available. Two houses get a 37 and 3 houses would get a 50.
That is about the max on a single transformer. Distribution will be
13kv to ground (3 p wye)

This is a 50
http://gfretwell.com/electrical/50%2...ransformer.jpg
This is the typical installation
http://gfretwell.com/electrical/transformer.jpg

You can see 2 of the 3 drops going off to the houses

And those 50's blow up quite spectacularly during ice storms.

What is an "ice storm"? Is that the same as a "hail storm"? Our transformers never seem to break.

5 days without power. Gave me the chance to start the aquarium over
from scratch. :-(

Surely you could have found enough juice to heat an aquarium?
--

Here in The U.S. even down South, on some occasions in the winter if the the temperature is just right and the planets are in alignment, we will have a winter rain storm where the rain freezes and builds up on the power lines and trees. The weight of the ice can cause power lines to snap or make a tree fall on a power line and bring it down. Such weather has come to be called an "Ice Storm". When I was a young lad, I resided in North Alabamastan where one winter, there was a horrendous ice storm that knocked out power and took down a lot of trees over a wide area. It's really the only extremely bad ice storm I can remember and it's from the middle of the last century. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Ice Monster

I should not have used the term "ice storm". My bad.

They now refer to them as an "ice event" because the ice doesn't "storm",
it forms. You can have a rain storm or a snow storm, in that the rain or
snow is the precipitation.

In an ice event, the rain is "supercooled" but not frozen. When it hits a
surface that is at or below 32°F, it begins to form a layer of ice.
Therefore it is an event (something that happens) not a storm.

If the raindrops freeze while still falling, it is known as sleet. There
can be situations where you will have sleet and an ice event at the same
time, but they are 2 different things. Some rain has frozen, some has not..

The worst ice event I experienced was back when they were still called ice
storms. A bunch of us used chain saws to clear our road so the utility
trucks could get to our power lines easier. I neatly ran the lines to my house
inside the pickets of my board-on-board fence so that they were clear and
off the ground. The utility hooked me up 2 days before my neighbors who had
left their lines buried under branches.

Cousin I'm-Glad-Spring-Is-Coming Monster

Oh crap! That's right, Political Correctness hit the weather business years ago when the Feminazis complained that using only female names for hurricanes was insulting and portrayed women as violent and destructive. So now that X-Men mutant gal called "Storm" should change her name to "Event"? o_O

[8~{} Uncle Mutant Monster

On Mon, 07 Mar 2016 13:49:51 -0000, DerbyDad03 wrote:

On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 11:44:47 PM UTC-5, Uncle Monster wrote:
On Saturday, March 5, 2016 at 3:12:57 PM UTC-6, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Sat, 05 Mar 2016 20:46:36 -0000, DerbyDad03 wrote:

On Saturday, March 5, 2016 at 2:50:39 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sat, 05 Mar 2016 17:52:43 -0000, "Mr Macaw" wrote:

240V and 0V. Neutral and ground are both connected to the 0V line, which is an earth spike at the 11kV to 240V substation (transformer) across the road.

Over here in the colonies we take that 240v and center tap the
transformer so both ungrounded legs are 120v above ground. That still
gives us the ability to use 240v equipment but most ends up being
120v. I suppose we can blame Thomas Edison for that. He started a fear
campaign against Nick Tesla over AC current, Edison wanted DC and he
said AC was more deadly, to the point of electrocuting an elephant
along with more than a few condemned prisoners ... all with AC.
When he lost the war, the deadly part still stuck and the belief was
that 120 would be safer, still leaving the option of having 240v
equipment.

It is interesting that you only have 11kva transformers. Typically
here, a single home would be on a 25kva, the smallest generally
available. Two houses get a 37 and 3 houses would get a 50.
That is about the max on a single transformer. Distribution will be
13kv to ground (3 p wye)

This is a 50
http://gfretwell.com/electrical/50%2...ransformer.jpg
This is the typical installation
http://gfretwell.com/electrical/transformer.jpg

You can see 2 of the 3 drops going off to the houses

And those 50's blow up quite spectacularly during ice storms.

What is an "ice storm"? Is that the same as a "hail storm"? Our transformers never seem to break.

5 days without power. Gave me the chance to start the aquarium over
from scratch. :-(

Surely you could have found enough juice to heat an aquarium?
--

Here in The U.S. even down South, on some occasions in the winter if the the temperature is just right and the planets are in alignment, we will have a winter rain storm where the rain freezes and builds up on the power lines and trees. The weight of the ice can cause power lines to snap or make a tree fall on a power line and bring it down. Such weather has come to be called an "Ice Storm". When I was a young lad, I resided in North Alabamastan where one winter, there was a horrendous ice storm that knocked out power and took down a lot of trees over a wide area. It's really the only extremely bad ice storm I can remember and it's from the middle of the last century. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Ice Monster

I should not have used the term "ice storm". My bad.

They now refer to them as an "ice event" because the ice doesn't "storm",
it forms. You can have a rain storm or a snow storm, in that the rain or
snow is the precipitation.

In an ice event, the rain is "supercooled" but not frozen. When it hits a
surface that is at or below 32°F, it begins to form a layer of ice.
Therefore it is an event (something that happens) not a storm.

If the raindrops freeze while still falling, it is known as sleet. There
can be situations where you will have sleet and an ice event at the same
time, but they are 2 different things. Some rain has frozen, some has not.

The worst ice event I experienced was back when they were still called ice
storms. A bunch of us used chain saws to clear our road so the utility
trucks could get to our power lines easier. I neatly ran the lines to my house
inside the pickets of my board-on-board fence so that they were clear and
off the ground. The utility hooked me up 2 days before my neighbors who had
left their lines buried under branches.

If you did that nowadays you'd be in trouble for touching "live" wires.

--
For the really paranoid who want to destroy data there's nothing like taking the lid off the disk drive and rearranging the sectors with a hammer.

On Mon, 07 Mar 2016 04:44:43 -0000, Uncle Monster wrote:

On Saturday, March 5, 2016 at 3:12:57 PM UTC-6, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Sat, 05 Mar 2016 20:46:36 -0000, DerbyDad03 wrote:

On Saturday, March 5, 2016 at 2:50:39 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sat, 05 Mar 2016 17:52:43 -0000, "Mr Macaw" wrote:

240V and 0V. Neutral and ground are both connected to the 0V line, which is an earth spike at the 11kV to 240V substation (transformer) across the road.

Over here in the colonies we take that 240v and center tap the
transformer so both ungrounded legs are 120v above ground. That still
gives us the ability to use 240v equipment but most ends up being
120v. I suppose we can blame Thomas Edison for that. He started a fear
campaign against Nick Tesla over AC current, Edison wanted DC and he
said AC was more deadly, to the point of electrocuting an elephant
along with more than a few condemned prisoners ... all with AC.
When he lost the war, the deadly part still stuck and the belief was
that 120 would be safer, still leaving the option of having 240v
equipment.

It is interesting that you only have 11kva transformers. Typically
here, a single home would be on a 25kva, the smallest generally
available. Two houses get a 37 and 3 houses would get a 50.
That is about the max on a single transformer. Distribution will be
13kv to ground (3 p wye)

This is a 50
http://gfretwell.com/electrical/50%2...ransformer.jpg
This is the typical installation
http://gfretwell.com/electrical/transformer.jpg

You can see 2 of the 3 drops going off to the houses

And those 50's blow up quite spectacularly during ice storms.

What is an "ice storm"? Is that the same as a "hail storm"? Our transformers never seem to break.

5 days without power. Gave me the chance to start the aquarium over
from scratch. :-(

Surely you could have found enough juice to heat an aquarium?
--

Here in The U.S. even down South, on some occasions in the winter if the the temperature is just right and the planets are in alignment, we will have a winter rain storm where the rain freezes and builds up on the power lines and trees. The weight of the ice can cause power lines to snap or make a tree fall on a power line and bring it down. Such weather has come to be called an "Ice Storm". When I was a young lad, I resided in North Alabamastan where one winter, there was a horrendous ice storm that knocked out power and took down a lot of trees over a wide area. It's really the only extremely bad ice storm I can remember and it's from the middle of the last century. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Ice Monster

Ah, this explains how they happen - warmer air higher up. But what I want to know is, surely if the warm air is moving to the right, then everything will melt soon anyway? And why do they happen in America and not the UK?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_st...on_by_type.png

--
In the beginning, there was nothing, which exploded.

On Mon, 07 Mar 2016 23:06:13 -0000, Uncle Monster wrote:

On Monday, March 7, 2016 at 7:49:58 AM UTC-6, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 11:44:47 PM UTC-5, Uncle Monster wrote:
On Saturday, March 5, 2016 at 3:12:57 PM UTC-6, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Sat, 05 Mar 2016 20:46:36 -0000, DerbyDad03 wrote:

On Saturday, March 5, 2016 at 2:50:39 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sat, 05 Mar 2016 17:52:43 -0000, "Mr Macaw" wrote:

240V and 0V. Neutral and ground are both connected to the 0V line, which is an earth spike at the 11kV to 240V substation (transformer) across the road.

Over here in the colonies we take that 240v and center tap the
transformer so both ungrounded legs are 120v above ground. That still
gives us the ability to use 240v equipment but most ends up being
120v. I suppose we can blame Thomas Edison for that. He started a fear
campaign against Nick Tesla over AC current, Edison wanted DC and he
said AC was more deadly, to the point of electrocuting an elephant
along with more than a few condemned prisoners ... all with AC..
When he lost the war, the deadly part still stuck and the belief was
that 120 would be safer, still leaving the option of having 240v
equipment.

It is interesting that you only have 11kva transformers. Typically
here, a single home would be on a 25kva, the smallest generally
available. Two houses get a 37 and 3 houses would get a 50.
That is about the max on a single transformer. Distribution will be
13kv to ground (3 p wye)

This is a 50
http://gfretwell.com/electrical/50%2...ransformer.jpg
This is the typical installation
http://gfretwell.com/electrical/transformer.jpg

You can see 2 of the 3 drops going off to the houses

And those 50's blow up quite spectacularly during ice storms.

What is an "ice storm"? Is that the same as a "hail storm"? Our transformers never seem to break.

5 days without power. Gave me the chance to start the aquarium over
from scratch. :-(

Surely you could have found enough juice to heat an aquarium?
--

Here in The U.S. even down South, on some occasions in the winter if the the temperature is just right and the planets are in alignment, we will have a winter rain storm where the rain freezes and builds up on the power lines and trees. The weight of the ice can cause power lines to snap or make a tree fall on a power line and bring it down. Such weather has come to be called an "Ice Storm". When I was a young lad, I resided in North Alabamastan where one winter, there was a horrendous ice storm that knocked out power and took down a lot of trees over a wide area. It's really the only extremely bad ice storm I can remember and it's from the middle of the last century. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Ice Monster

I should not have used the term "ice storm". My bad.

They now refer to them as an "ice event" because the ice doesn't "storm",
it forms. You can have a rain storm or a snow storm, in that the rain or
snow is the precipitation.

In an ice event, the rain is "supercooled" but not frozen. When it hits a
surface that is at or below 32°F, it begins to form a layer of ice.
Therefore it is an event (something that happens) not a storm.

If the raindrops freeze while still falling, it is known as sleet. There
can be situations where you will have sleet and an ice event at the same
time, but they are 2 different things. Some rain has frozen, some has not.

The worst ice event I experienced was back when they were still called ice
storms. A bunch of us used chain saws to clear our road so the utility
trucks could get to our power lines easier. I neatly ran the lines to my house
inside the pickets of my board-on-board fence so that they were clear and
off the ground. The utility hooked me up 2 days before my neighbors who had
left their lines buried under branches.

Cousin I'm-Glad-Spring-Is-Coming Monster

Oh crap! That's right, Political Correctness hit the weather business years ago when the Feminazis complained that using only female names for hurricanes was insulting and portrayed women as violent and destructive.. So now that X-Men mutant gal called "Storm" should change her name to "Event"? o_O

[8~{} Uncle Mutant Monster

Over here in the UK, the police don't say "accident" anymore. It's now an "incident", because (and due to bloody American lawyer types and we copied you) someone is always to blame (rolls eyes).

--
A drunk was in front of a judge. The judge says, "You've been brought here for drinking."
The drunk says, "Okay, let's get started."