On Sat, 5 Mar 2016 07:46:11 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 3/4/2016 9:39 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 16:56:37 -0800 (PST), Uncle Monster
Shouldn't the ground be connected to the
separate ground bar?

Should I move the ground wire?


Perhaps I phrased it incorrectly. Does the sub panel can/housing have to grounded? I may have the wrong vision in my head but I think I imagined that the ground bar was in an insulated holder like the neutral bar but now I remember the grounding bar being attached directly to the can/housing. Drain bamage, not enough sleep. Sometimes I can't spell kat. o_O

[8~{} Uncle Confused Monster
The can/housing of ALL panels needs to be grounded, as does every
switch and outlet box, as well as all utility boxes. ONLY in the
"main/service disconnect" may the neutral and ground be directly
connected. The neutral bonding screw or jumper connects the neutral
buss to the case ground.


Anyone wish to answer the OP's OQ?
I answered the OP's question. It's OK, don't screw with it.

On Sat, 5 Mar 2016 05:16:17 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Saturday, March 5, 2016 at 7:46:12 AM UTC-5, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 3/4/2016 9:39 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 16:56:37 -0800 (PST), Uncle Monster
Shouldn't the ground be connected to the
separate ground bar?

Should I move the ground wire?


Perhaps I phrased it incorrectly. Does the sub panel can/housing have to grounded? I may have the wrong vision in my head but I think I imagined that the ground bar was in an insulated holder like the neutral bar but now I remember the grounding bar being attached directly to the can/housing. Drain bamage, not enough sleep. Sometimes I can't spell kat. o_O

[8~{} Uncle Confused Monster
The can/housing of ALL panels needs to be grounded, as does every
switch and outlet box, as well as all utility boxes. ONLY in the
"main/service disconnect" may the neutral and ground be directly
connected. The neutral bonding screw or jumper connects the neutral
buss to the case ground.


Anyone wish to answer the OP's OQ?


It was answered within hours of your question, with a qualifying "if".
Since you never directly addressed the "if" it's on you.

I'll make it easy for you:

If this "if" is true, then you already have your answer:

"No if this is the service disconnect enclosure where the ground
electrode conductor lands and the main disconnect resides..."

If that "if" is not true, then you need to tell us more about
the installation. In other words, if the service disconnect is
not in the panel you are asking about, then where is it?
He doesn't have a clue.

On Sat, 5 Mar 2016 08:41:01 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 3/5/2016 8:16 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Saturday, March 5, 2016 at 7:46:12 AM UTC-5, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Anyone wish to answer the OP's OQ?


It was answered within hours of your question, with a qualifying "if".
Since you never directly addressed the "if" it's on you.

I'll make it easy for you:

If this "if" is true, then you already have your answer:

"No if this is the service disconnect enclosure where the ground
electrode conductor lands and the main disconnect resides..."

If that "if" is not true, then you need to tell us more about
the installation. In other words, if the service disconnect is
not in the panel you are asking about, then where is it?


The power comes from the pole to a meter box,
which is outside the house. The power company
can remove the meter and put plastic boots over
the contacts, so I'd dare to say that is a
primitive service disconnect.


It is not a "sevice disconnect" as defined by code.

I've not been out that side of the house in
several years. don't know how the ground
bar in the ground connects in to the matter.
But, I do know the meter is outdoors.

There is some kind of cable from the meter box
to the circuit breaker panel. The question is
about the circuit breaker panel.

The ground wire in question comes in from outdoors
(in a plastic wrapped sheath with two hots and a
neutral). The ground wire presently connects to
the same metal bar, about an inch from where the
neutral connects.


Which is exactly as it should be. Don't screw with it.
It is possible (enough wire to work with) to move
the ground wire (from outdoors) to a screw connector
on one of the two ground screw bars.
It is code compliant the way it is. Don't screw with it.

I'm not a code reading electrician, and thank you
for making it easy for me.

On Fri, 04 Mar 2016 02:40:14 -0000, Stormin Mormon wrote:

I noticed a friends's Square D panel, the
neutral and ground (from the utility company
feed) are connected to the same bar. And less
than an inch apart.

Shouldn't the ground be connected to the
separate ground bar?

Should I move the ground wire?

I'm in the UK, so I don't know how your systems work. But my house only has TWO wires coming into it. 240V and 0V. Neutral and ground are both connected to the 0V line, which is an earth spike at the 11kV to 240V substation (transformer) across the road.

--
If European immigrants voluntarily went to America and it turned out like that,
how come Britain sent a load of convicts to Australia and it turned out better?

In ,
Stormin Mormon typed:

Anyone wish to answer the OP's OQ?

Hey, Opie (err..ah.., I mean OP),

Your question was answered many times, and then answered again after you
posted more info about what you apparently incorrectly considered to be a
"service disconnect" on the outside -- the meter box.

While I know you can be quite a character here sometimes, it is not really
like you to not realize that your original question was already answered
many times over.

Makes me wonder if you are having a bad day, or a bad week, there in
Mayberry :-)

On Sat, 05 Mar 2016 17:52:43 -0000, "Mr Macaw" wrote:

240V and 0V. Neutral and ground are both connected to the 0V line, which is an earth spike at the 11kV to 240V substation (transformer) across the road.

Over here in the colonies we take that 240v and center tap the
transformer so both ungrounded legs are 120v above ground. That still
gives us the ability to use 240v equipment but most ends up being
120v. I suppose we can blame Thomas Edison for that. He started a fear
campaign against Nick Tesla over AC current, Edison wanted DC and he
said AC was more deadly, to the point of electrocuting an elephant
along with more than a few condemned prisoners ... all with AC.
When he lost the war, the deadly part still stuck and the belief was
that 120 would be safer, still leaving the option of having 240v
equipment.

It is interesting that you only have 11kva transformers. Typically
here, a single home would be on a 25kva, the smallest generally
available. Two houses get a 37 and 3 houses would get a 50.
That is about the max on a single transformer. Distribution will be
13kv to ground (3 p wye)

This is a 50
http://gfretwell.com/electrical/50%2...ransformer.jpg
This is the typical installation
http://gfretwell.com/electrical/transformer.jpg

You can see 2 of the 3 drops going off to the houses

On Saturday, March 5, 2016 at 2:50:39 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sat, 05 Mar 2016 17:52:43 -0000, "Mr Macaw" wrote:

240V and 0V. Neutral and ground are both connected to the 0V line, which is an earth spike at the 11kV to 240V substation (transformer) across the road.

Over here in the colonies we take that 240v and center tap the
transformer so both ungrounded legs are 120v above ground. That still
gives us the ability to use 240v equipment but most ends up being
120v. I suppose we can blame Thomas Edison for that. He started a fear
campaign against Nick Tesla over AC current, Edison wanted DC and he
said AC was more deadly, to the point of electrocuting an elephant
along with more than a few condemned prisoners ... all with AC.
When he lost the war, the deadly part still stuck and the belief was
that 120 would be safer, still leaving the option of having 240v
equipment.

It is interesting that you only have 11kva transformers. Typically
here, a single home would be on a 25kva, the smallest generally
available. Two houses get a 37 and 3 houses would get a 50.
That is about the max on a single transformer. Distribution will be
13kv to ground (3 p wye)

This is a 50
http://gfretwell.com/electrical/50%2...ransformer.jpg
This is the typical installation
http://gfretwell.com/electrical/transformer.jpg

You can see 2 of the 3 drops going off to the houses

And those 50's blow up quite spectacularly during ice storms.

5 days without power. Gave me the chance to start the aquarium over
from scratch. :-(

On Sat, 05 Mar 2016 19:50:19 -0000, wrote:

On Sat, 05 Mar 2016 17:52:43 -0000, "Mr Macaw" wrote:

240V and 0V. Neutral and ground are both connected to the 0V line, which is an earth spike at the 11kV to 240V substation (transformer) across the road.

Over here in the colonies we take that 240v and center tap the
transformer so both ungrounded legs are 120v above ground. That still
gives us the ability to use 240v equipment but most ends up being
120v. I suppose we can blame Thomas Edison for that. He started a fear
campaign against Nick Tesla over AC current, Edison wanted DC and he
said AC was more deadly, to the point of electrocuting an elephant
along with more than a few condemned prisoners ... all with AC.
When he lost the war, the deadly part still stuck and the belief was
that 120 would be safer, still leaving the option of having 240v
equipment.

More wires and outlets all over the house, inconvenient I guess.

It is interesting that you only have 11kva transformers. Typically
here, a single home would be on a 25kva, the smallest generally
available. Two houses get a 37 and 3 houses would get a 50.
That is about the max on a single transformer. Distribution will be
13kv to ground (3 p wye)

This is a 50
http://gfretwell.com/electrical/50%2...ransformer.jpg
This is the typical installation
http://gfretwell.com/electrical/transformer.jpg

You can see 2 of the 3 drops going off to the houses

No, 11kV, not 11kVA. I meant the voltage going into their primaries.

We actually have much bigger ones than yours then, the one opposite me serves about 100 houses. It's very large and when it was replaced I saw them unload it off a flatbed lorry, it took up half the trailer. In case flatbed lorry means nothing over there, this big: http://www.truckexporter.co.uk/sites...?itok=2iIv3msv

--
Time that you enjoy wasting, is not wasted time -- Marthe Troly-Curtin

On Sat, 05 Mar 2016 20:46:36 -0000, DerbyDad03 wrote:

On Saturday, March 5, 2016 at 2:50:39 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sat, 05 Mar 2016 17:52:43 -0000, "Mr Macaw" wrote:

240V and 0V. Neutral and ground are both connected to the 0V line, which is an earth spike at the 11kV to 240V substation (transformer) across the road.

Over here in the colonies we take that 240v and center tap the
transformer so both ungrounded legs are 120v above ground. That still
gives us the ability to use 240v equipment but most ends up being
120v. I suppose we can blame Thomas Edison for that. He started a fear
campaign against Nick Tesla over AC current, Edison wanted DC and he
said AC was more deadly, to the point of electrocuting an elephant
along with more than a few condemned prisoners ... all with AC.
When he lost the war, the deadly part still stuck and the belief was
that 120 would be safer, still leaving the option of having 240v
equipment.

It is interesting that you only have 11kva transformers. Typically
here, a single home would be on a 25kva, the smallest generally
available. Two houses get a 37 and 3 houses would get a 50.
That is about the max on a single transformer. Distribution will be
13kv to ground (3 p wye)

This is a 50
http://gfretwell.com/electrical/50%2...ransformer.jpg
This is the typical installation
http://gfretwell.com/electrical/transformer.jpg

You can see 2 of the 3 drops going off to the houses

And those 50's blow up quite spectacularly during ice storms.

What is an "ice storm"? Is that the same as a "hail storm"? Our transformers never seem to break.

5 days without power. Gave me the chance to start the aquarium over
from scratch. :-(

Surely you could have found enough juice to heat an aquarium?

--
We've all heard that a million monkeys banging on a million typewriters will eventually reproduce the works of Shakespeare.
Now, thanks to the Internet, we know this is not true.

On Sat, 05 Mar 2016 21:11:01 -0000, "Mr Macaw" wrote:

On Sat, 05 Mar 2016 19:50:19 -0000, wrote:


More wires and outlets all over the house, inconvenient I guess.

Why are more outlets "inconvenient"?
In fact our code requires that you are pretty much never more than 6
feet from a receptacle, not crossing a door or other opening.
240 equipment is generally going to be fixed in place anyway.

I will say that in my travels I was impressed with the 240v tea
kettle, if you really make that much tea.

It is interesting that you only have 11kva transformers.
No, 11kV, not 11kVA. I meant the voltage going into their primaries.

We actually have much bigger ones than yours then, the one opposite me serves about 100 houses. It's very large and when it was replaced I saw them unload it off a flatbed lorry, it took up half the trailer. In case flatbed lorry means nothing over there, this big: http://www.truckexporter.co.uk/sites...?itok=2iIv3msv

OK my fault. I had understood that you folks did distribution from
centralized transformers.
I think we went will smaller transformers and maintaining the medium
voltage for distribution because our homes tend to be farther apart.
The I2R losses from 240v distribution over many hundreds of feet would
be substantial. What is your typical load calculation for a home?
We have a minimum service requirement of 24KVA (100 amps) and 400 amp
services are not uncommon. They do build a 125% cushion in that
calculation and the required feeders are only 80% of that calculation
for the entire load of a dwelling.
I am sure Americans still use more power than you folks across the
pond but isn't that our way ;-)
My usage ranges from about 2 MWH a month to around 2.5 MWH when the AC
is on. That is between $200 and $300 with all the fees taxes and other
charges.
It is an "all electric" house tho, including pumping water. I have no
other utilities.

On Sat, 05 Mar 2016 14:50:19 -0500, wrote:


Over here in the colonies we take that 240v and center tap the
transformer so both ungrounded legs are 120v above ground. That still
gives us the ability to use 240v equipment but most ends up being
120v. I suppose we can blame Thomas Edison for that. He started a fear
campaign against Nick Tesla over AC current, Edison wanted DC and he
said AC was more deadly, to the point of electrocuting an elephant
along with more than a few condemned prisoners ... all with AC.
When he lost the war, the deadly part still stuck and the belief was
that 120 would be safer, still leaving the option of having 240v
equipment.

I thought 240 was indeed more deadly than 120 and that more people
died of shocks, per capita, in the UK than here. How could 240 not
be more deadly than 120?

On Sun, 06 Mar 2016 07:25:01 -0000, Micky wrote:

On Sat, 05 Mar 2016 14:50:19 -0500, wrote:


Over here in the colonies we take that 240v and center tap the
transformer so both ungrounded legs are 120v above ground. That still
gives us the ability to use 240v equipment but most ends up being
120v. I suppose we can blame Thomas Edison for that. He started a fear
campaign against Nick Tesla over AC current, Edison wanted DC and he
said AC was more deadly, to the point of electrocuting an elephant
along with more than a few condemned prisoners ... all with AC.
When he lost the war, the deadly part still stuck and the belief was
that 120 would be safer, still leaving the option of having 240v
equipment.

I thought 240 was indeed more deadly than 120 and that more people
died of shocks, per capita, in the UK than here. How could 240 not
be more deadly than 120?

Isn't it the case that if either of them goes through your heart it can kill you? Anything over 80 volts or something like that is all the same.

The only difference is that much higher voltages can burn your skin, or jump across gaps where you least expect it. But that's kV.

--
Take notice: when this sign is under water, this road is impassable.

On Sun, 06 Mar 2016 05:04:22 -0000, wrote:

On Sat, 05 Mar 2016 21:11:01 -0000, "Mr Macaw" wrote:

On Sat, 05 Mar 2016 19:50:19 -0000, wrote:


More wires and outlets all over the house, inconvenient I guess.

Why are more outlets "inconvenient"?

Because of the two different types. If I want to plug in a hoover, I use any outlet. You have to find one of the right voltage. So to make it as likely to have one, you need twice as many outlets.

In fact our code requires that you are pretty much never more than 6
feet from a receptacle, not crossing a door or other opening.

Why on earth would convenience be in your code? I thought "code" was for safety?

240 equipment is generally going to be fixed in place anyway.

I will say that in my travels I was impressed with the 240v tea
kettle, if you really make that much tea.

So what are your kettles? 110 volts and 1.5kW? That would take an age to boil. Or do they have a 30 amp flex?

What about an iron? A portable fan-heater or convector heater? There are loads of appliances which need a lot of power that you may wish to move about.

It is interesting that you only have 11kva transformers.
No, 11kV, not 11kVA. I meant the voltage going into their primaries.

We actually have much bigger ones than yours then, the one opposite me serves about 100 houses. It's very large and when it was replaced I saw them unload it off a flatbed lorry, it took up half the trailer. In case flatbed lorry means nothing over there, this big: http://www.truckexporter.co.uk/sites...?itok=2iIv3msv

OK my fault. I had understood that you folks did distribution from
centralized transformers.
I think we went will smaller transformers and maintaining the medium
voltage for distribution because our homes tend to be farther apart.
The I2R losses from 240v distribution over many hundreds of feet would
be substantial. What is your typical load calculation for a home?
We have a minimum service requirement of 24KVA (100 amps)

We get 240V at 80-100 amps. I for some reason have a 100A master fuse, followed by a meter which has a rating of 80 amps. I've seen some old meters that say 60 amps. However the wire coming into my house is quite substantial and could probably take 300A if I told them I needed more, and they could just change the fuse and the meter.

and 400 amp
services are not uncommon. They do build a 125% cushion in that
calculation and the required feeders are only 80% of that calculation
for the entire load of a dwelling.
I am sure Americans still use more power than you folks across the
pond but isn't that our way ;-)

If we're not in the middle of nowhere, heating, hot water, and cooking is done by gas (it's 3 times cheaper), so we don't use that much electricity. Showers, washing machines, and dishwashers tend to heat their own water, so those and a tumble dryer (our weather is very damp) are about the only things that wil use much.

My usage ranges from about 2 MWH a month

Looking at my last bill, I used 1.5MWH between April 25th and Oct 11th, which is several times less than you. WTF are you doing with all that power?

to around 2.5 MWH when the AC is on.

Now you see AC isn't needed in the UK :-)

That is between $200 and $300 with all the fees taxes and other
charges.

Here, 2.5MWH would cost £340 = $480, about twice what you pay. Why is America cheaper for everything? There's a phrase "rip off Britain" but nobody knows why it's the case.

It is an "all electric" house tho, including pumping water. I have no
other utilities.

Do you use heating? Since you said AC, I'm assuming a warm climate.
Do you have a swimming pool?

--
I went to San Francisco. I found someone's heart.

"Mr Macaw" wrote in message news
.

What is an "ice storm"? Is that the same as a "hail storm"? Our
transformers never seem to break.


The ice storm is when the rain fall out of the sky and freezes on the power
lines and trees. It can build up to several inches in diameter. Often the
ice is more than the tree or some of the big limbs can stand and they break
and fall across the power lines. Sometimes could be called freezing rain.

Unlike hail that is already frozen and does not usually stick to the wires
and trees. Hail can be large enough to damage things but does not usually
take out the power lines.

On Sun, 06 Mar 2016 15:27:28 -0000, Ralph Mowery wrote:


"Mr Macaw" wrote in message news
.

What is an "ice storm"? Is that the same as a "hail storm"? Our
transformers never seem to break.


The ice storm is when the rain fall out of the sky and freezes on the power
lines and trees. It can build up to several inches in diameter. Often the
ice is more than the tree or some of the big limbs can stand and they break
and fall across the power lines. Sometimes could be called freezing rain.

Unlike hail that is already frozen and does not usually stick to the wires
and trees. Hail can be large enough to damage things but does not usually
take out the power lines.

That's very odd and seems to be against the laws of physics. If it's below freezing on the branches, how come it's above freezing higher up (where you'd expect it to be colder) causing rain and not hail?

The only time we get too much weight on branches is in colder parts (North Scotland) where SNOW falls on things. Snow has the ability to stick of course, and builds up.

--
FART stands for FAst Repetitive Ticks, and herrings use them to communicate.

"Mr Macaw" wrote in message news On Sun, 06 Mar 2016 05:04:22 -0000, wrote:

On Sat, 05 Mar 2016 21:11:01 -0000, "Mr Macaw" wrote:

On Sat, 05 Mar 2016 19:50:19 -0000, wrote:


More wires and outlets all over the house, inconvenient I guess.

Why are more outlets "inconvenient"?

Because of the two different types. If I want to plug in a hoover, I use
any outlet. You have to find one of the right voltage. So to make it as
likely to have one, you need twice as many outlets.

In fact our code requires that you are pretty much never more than 6
feet from a receptacle, not crossing a door or other opening.

Why on earth would convenience be in your code? I thought "code" was for
safety?

240 equipment is generally going to be fixed in place anyway.

I will say that in my travels I was impressed with the 240v tea
kettle, if you really make that much tea.

So what are your kettles? 110 volts and 1.5kW? That would take an age to
boil. Or do they have a 30 amp flex?

What about an iron? A portable fan-heater or convector heater? There are
loads of appliances which need a lot of power that you may wish to move
about.

We get 240V at 80-100 amps. I for some reason have a 100A master fuse,
followed by a meter which has a rating of 80 amps. I've seen some old
meters that say 60 amps. However the wire coming into my house is quite
substantial and could probably take 300A if I told them I needed more, and
they could just change the fuse and the meter.

If we're not in the middle of nowhere, heating, hot water, and cooking is
done by gas (it's 3 times cheaper), so we don't use that much electricity.
Showers, washing machines, and dishwashers tend to heat their own water, so
those and a tumble dryer (our weather is very damp) are about the only
things that wil use much.

My usage ranges from about 2 MWH a month

Looking at my last bill, I used 1.5MWH between April 25th and Oct 11th,
which is several times less than you. WTF are you doing with all that
power?

to around 2.5 MWH when the AC is on.

Now you see AC isn't needed in the UK :-)



In the US most common items that plug in use 120 volts. The standard
current is up to about 15 amps. Good enough for small electric heaters to
warm up one room. Washing machines are usually 120 volts and do not heat
the water, dryers are 240 volts and have a special plug for that, same as
for the electric stoves and ovens. Irons are 120 volts, but not many use
them now.
Coffee pots, microwaves, and toasters and other plug in devices for the
kitchen are usually 120 volts.Problem is that unless several circuits are
ran to the kitchen you can only do one or two things at a time.

Just looking and my bill shows 2,039 KWH for this past month. That is for
all electric and I have a well for water. Been using the portable heater for
an unheated room in the basement some this winter. The summer bill is not
usuall too much less due to AC. Lots less in months we do not heat or cool.
The heat is by a heat pump.

The code is for safety. Most items come with about 6 feet of cord, so
outlets are usually every 6 feet of wall space by the code. Several
circuits for the kitchen area.

I think my main breaker is 200 amps.

On Sun, 06 Mar 2016 15:41:43 -0000, Ralph Mowery wrote:


"Mr Macaw" wrote in message news On Sun, 06 Mar 2016 05:04:22 -0000, wrote:

On Sat, 05 Mar 2016 21:11:01 -0000, "Mr Macaw" wrote:

On Sat, 05 Mar 2016 19:50:19 -0000, wrote:


More wires and outlets all over the house, inconvenient I guess.

Why are more outlets "inconvenient"?

Because of the two different types. If I want to plug in a hoover, I use
any outlet. You have to find one of the right voltage. So to make it as
likely to have one, you need twice as many outlets.

In fact our code requires that you are pretty much never more than 6
feet from a receptacle, not crossing a door or other opening.

Why on earth would convenience be in your code? I thought "code" was for
safety?

240 equipment is generally going to be fixed in place anyway.

I will say that in my travels I was impressed with the 240v tea
kettle, if you really make that much tea.

So what are your kettles? 110 volts and 1.5kW? That would take an age to
boil. Or do they have a 30 amp flex?

What about an iron? A portable fan-heater or convector heater? There are
loads of appliances which need a lot of power that you may wish to move
about.

We get 240V at 80-100 amps. I for some reason have a 100A master fuse,
followed by a meter which has a rating of 80 amps. I've seen some old
meters that say 60 amps. However the wire coming into my house is quite
substantial and could probably take 300A if I told them I needed more, and
they could just change the fuse and the meter.

If we're not in the middle of nowhere, heating, hot water, and cooking is
done by gas (it's 3 times cheaper), so we don't use that much electricity.
Showers, washing machines, and dishwashers tend to heat their own water, so
those and a tumble dryer (our weather is very damp) are about the only
things that wil use much.

My usage ranges from about 2 MWH a month

Looking at my last bill, I used 1.5MWH between April 25th and Oct 11th,
which is several times less than you. WTF are you doing with all that
power?

to around 2.5 MWH when the AC is on.

Now you see AC isn't needed in the UK :-)



In the US most common items that plug in use 120 volts. The standard
current is up to about 15 amps. Good enough for small electric heaters to
warm up one room.

Not really. Heaters here are 3kW. You're getting 1.8kW, suitable for a hall maybe.

Washing machines are usually 120 volts and do not heat
the water,

We used to have washing machines which COULD heat the water, but if you were doing a warm wash they'd take half or all the water from the hot water system, but some idiot has decided to make them all cold fill, citing some ******** about it's cheaper than having your hot water tank heated up. But at the same time, we've all gone over to gas combi boilers which heat the water on demand anyway! Then I heard some crap about "the washing machine will take cold water from the pipe before it gets there from the boiler", which is wrong because if you turn on a hot tap, it's hot pretty much straight away.

dryers are 240 volts and have a special plug for that,

I can put my dryer anywhere I want in the house. I'd find it very annoying to have to rewire the house when I want to move it.

same as for the electric stoves and ovens.

Yes a stove has its own circuit here - 240V 30A.

Irons are 120 volts,

Ours take long enough to heat up, yours must take all day.

but not many use them now.

Why would you stop using irons?

Coffee pots, microwaves, and toasters and other plug in devices for the
kitchen are usually 120 volts.Problem is that unless several circuits are
ran to the kitchen you can only do one or two things at a time.

What amperage are your outlet circuits? We tend to have 240V 30A for the whole house on one loop. So you can run two or three big things without overloading, never have to think about it.

Just looking and my bill shows 2,039 KWH for this past month. That is for
all electric and I have a well for water. Been using the portable heater for
an unheated room in the basement some this winter. The summer bill is not
usuall too much less due to AC. Lots less in months we do not heat or cool.
The heat is by a heat pump.

The code is for safety. Most items come with about 6 feet of cord, so
outlets are usually every 6 feet of wall space by the code. Several
circuits for the kitchen area.

So to stop you having wires to trip over? That's going way too far with safety, I thought the UK was bad. The only rules we have for outlets is when installed near water, like in the bathroom. For some reason the rules are tighter than the kitchen, which has just as much water!

But then most of us do our own electrical work and just ignore all that **** anyway. My house, I'll have an outlet in the bathroom if I want. If I didn't, I'd only run an extension cord in there anyway.

I think my main breaker is 200 amps.

--
The squaw on the hippopotamus is equal to the sons of the squaws on the other two hides!

On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 10:18:16 AM UTC-5, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Sun, 06 Mar 2016 05:04:22 -0000, wrote:


Why are more outlets "inconvenient"?

Because of the two different types. If I want to plug in a hoover, I use any outlet. You have to find one of the right voltage. So to make it as likely to have one, you need twice as many outlets.


All the common everyday appliances, eg microwave, electric kettle, lamps, vacuums, are 120V here and those are the only outlets distributed around the
house. 240V is used for electric dryers and ovens and it's about the only
place you'd find a 240V receptacle in a typical house. Some might have
it for some shop type gear, in their basement, garage etc too.




In fact our code requires that you are pretty much never more than 6
feet from a receptacle, not crossing a door or other opening.

Why on earth would convenience be in your code? I thought "code" was for safety?


That is part of safety. Having sufficient receptacles within a given
distance means that people are less likely to run extension cords which
are a known hazard, for example.



240 equipment is generally going to be fixed in place anyway.

I will say that in my travels I was impressed with the 240v tea
kettle, if you really make that much tea.

So what are your kettles? 110 volts and 1.5kW? That would take an age to boil. Or do they have a 30 amp flex?


~1.5KW is what they are. I would agree, 240V for that would be real
sweet. Still the 120V electric kettle can heat it faster than using
the range and more efficiently.


What about an iron? A portable fan-heater or convector heater? There are loads of appliances which need a lot of power that you may wish to move about.


They too are limited to ~1500W. There are some that require a 20A
circuit, have a different plug, but those are the exception, not typical.




If we're not in the middle of nowhere, heating, hot water, and cooking is done by gas (it's 3 times cheaper), so we don't use that much electricity.

Same here. If nat gas is available, it's by far the most economical.
Electric is usually most expensive. We've found a tremendous amount of
new nat gas in the last decade or so.


Showers, washing machines, and dishwashers tend to heat their own water, so those and a tumble dryer (our weather is very damp) are about the only things that wil use much.


Here shower and washing machine, in vast majority of cases, don't
heat their own water. Electric dryers do and are on a 240V receptacle.

"Mr Macaw" wrote in message news
On Sun, 06 Mar 2016 15:41:43 -0000, Ralph Mowery
wrote:


Not really. Heaters here are 3kW. You're getting 1.8kW, suitable for a
hall maybe.


Most houses have central heating so not that much use for the portable
heaters. The portable heaters cost more to operate that gas, oil, heat pump
systems.



We used to have washing machines which COULD heat the water, but if you
were doing a warm wash they'd take half or all the water from the hot
water system, but some idiot has decided to make them all cold fill,
citing some ******** about it's cheaper than having your hot water tank
heated up. But at the same time, we've all gone over to gas combi boilers
which heat the water on demand anyway! Then I heard some crap about "the
washing machine will take cold water from the pipe before it gets there
from the boiler", which is wrong because if you turn on a hot tap, it's
hot pretty much straight away.


We normally feed hot and cold water to the washing machines and a valve on
the machine blends them depending on hot, warm, cold. Most places have the
hot water tanks of about 30 to 50 gallons and while there is a push for the
on demand hot water, not all that many use it, or not in the area I live in.
Usually the washer is not too far from the water heater.

dryers are 240 volts and have a special plug for that,

I can put my dryer anywhere I want in the house. I'd find it very
annoying to have to rewire the house when I want to move it.



Dryers are not normally moved and placed next to the washing machine which
is not moved due to the water lines. Also as the dryers vent the hot air
and has lint in it, they are usually vented to the outside of the house.
Good for summer and bad in winter.


Irons are 120 volts,

Ours take long enough to heat up, yours must take all day.

but not many use them now.

Why would you stop using irons?

It does not take all that long for the iron to heat up. Takes too much time
to iron the cloths.. Perment press came out years ago. We don't even have
an ironing board. The jobs we have just require working and not dress
cloths. The wife will put a towel or something over the bar in the kitchen
to do some ironing if we relly need something ironed.


What amperage are your outlet circuits? We tend to have 240V 30A for the
whole house on one loop. So you can run two or three big things without
overloading, never have to think about it.

Most houses are wired with 120 volt and 15 amp circuits. One good thing
about it is that if a breaker does trip it only effects the outlets of one
room. There are usually seperate 120 volt circuits for the refrigerator,
washing machine and a few other high current items that are not often moved
around.



Just looking and my bill shows 2,039 KWH for this past month. That is
for
all electric and I have a well for water. Been using the portable heater
for
an unheated room in the basement some this winter. The summer bill is
not
usuall too much less due to AC. Lots less in months we do not heat or
cool.
The heat is by a heat pump.

The code is for safety. Most items come with about 6 feet of cord, so
outlets are usually every 6 feet of wall space by the code. Several
circuits for the kitchen area.

So to stop you having wires to trip over? That's going way too far with
safety, I thought the UK was bad. The only rules we have for outlets is
when installed near water, like in the bathroom. For some reason the
rules are tighter than the kitchen, which has just as much water!

But then most of us do our own electrical work and just ignore all that
**** anyway. My house, I'll have an outlet in the bathroom if I want. If
I didn't, I'd only run an extension cord in there anyway.

My house has 2 outlets in the bathroom connected to a GFCI breaker in the
breaker box.

The house was built around 1980 and I think the code at that time required
the GFCI for bathroom and outside recepticals.

There is a large book for the National Electric Code. It is not mandantory
for the different states, but most areas go by it or something very close to
it. From what I understand there are lots of differentrules for wiring in
the country. Some areas you have to have a licensed electrician to do any
wiring. Where I live you can do you own wiwring,but are expected for it to
meet the code. If you wire for someone as a job then you have to be
licensed and have it inspected. I did one wiring at my house that is not
to any code. Ran a # 10 wiring from the breaker box on a 30 amp breaker to
an outside receptical ( actually a combination) where I can get 120 or 240
volts, but its main use is to hook up a 5 kw generator that I have incase of
a power outage.

On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 10:49:55 AM UTC-5, Mr Macaw wrote:


I can put my dryer anywhere I want in the house. I'd find it very annoying to have to rewire the house when I want to move it.


Where would you want to put it, the living room? Here we generally
have an area that set up for the washer, eg water faucets to screw
the hoses onto, drain for it, and then the dryer goes right next
to it, with a 240V receptacle provided. The dryers are also vented
outside, so if you can move yours around, what do they do with the
venting?



same as for the electric stoves and ovens.

Yes a stove has its own circuit here - 240V 30A.

Irons are 120 volts,

Ours take long enough to heat up, yours must take all day.


Takes just a few minutes. Not a problem really. While it's warming
up there is usually something else that can be done at the same time,
right there.



but not many use them now.

Why would you stop using irons?


Permanent press clothes and taking things like dress shirts to the cleaners.



Coffee pots, microwaves, and toasters and other plug in devices for the
kitchen are usually 120 volts.Problem is that unless several circuits are
ran to the kitchen you can only do one or two things at a time.

What amperage are your outlet circuits? We tend to have 240V 30A for the whole house on one loop. So you can run two or three big things without overloading, never have to think about it.


We have multiple 15A or 20A 120V circuits for receptacles and/or lights.
Many circuits have both on them. How many circuits depends on the size
of the house. But having 12 to 20 of them isn't unusual.

On Sun, 06 Mar 2016 16:32:19 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 10:18:16 AM UTC-5, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Sun, 06 Mar 2016 05:04:22 -0000, wrote:

Why are more outlets "inconvenient"?

Because of the two different types. If I want to plug in a hoover, I use any outlet. You have to find one of the right voltage. So to make it as likely to have one, you need twice as many outlets.

All the common everyday appliances, eg microwave, electric kettle, lamps, vacuums, are 120V here and those are the only outlets distributed around the
house.

So your vacuum must have quite a beefy cord on it. Our vacuums typically use 5 amps, the the flex is quite flexible.

240V is used for electric dryers and ovens and it's about the only
place you'd find a 240V receptacle in a typical house. Some might have
it for some shop type gear, in their basement, garage etc too.

In fact our code requires that you are pretty much never more than 6
feet from a receptacle, not crossing a door or other opening.

Why on earth would convenience be in your code? I thought "code" was for safety?

That is part of safety. Having sufficient receptacles within a given
distance means that people are less likely to run extension cords which
are a known hazard, for example.

I wasn't aware America was over the top on safety. An extension cord is not a hazard, what do you think it's going to do? Catch fire for no reason?

240 equipment is generally going to be fixed in place anyway.

I will say that in my travels I was impressed with the 240v tea
kettle, if you really make that much tea.

So what are your kettles? 110 volts and 1.5kW? That would take an age to boil. Or do they have a 30 amp flex?

~1.5KW is what they are. I would agree, 240V for that would be real
sweet. Still the 120V electric kettle can heat it faster than using
the range and more efficiently.

I find the 3kW one too slow if it's full.

What about an iron? A portable fan-heater or convector heater? There are loads of appliances which need a lot of power that you may wish to move about.

They too are limited to ~1500W. There are some that require a 20A
circuit, have a different plug, but those are the exception, not typical.

If we're not in the middle of nowhere, heating, hot water, and cooking is done by gas (it's 3 times cheaper), so we don't use that much electricity.

Same here. If nat gas is available, it's by far the most economical.
Electric is usually most expensive. We've found a tremendous amount of
new nat gas in the last decade or so.

I think ours is all from the North Sea, which being in Scotland I'm right next to.

Showers, washing machines, and dishwashers tend to heat their own water, so those and a tumble dryer (our weather is very damp) are about the only things that wil use much.

Here shower and washing machine, in vast majority of cases, don't
heat their own water. Electric dryers do and are on a 240V receptacle.

Do you still have those washing machines like I saw on a TV show once, where the detergent is dispensed automatically fro a big tank above it?

--
"I'm prescribing these pills for you," said the doctor to the overweight patient, who tipped the scales at about three hundred pounds.
"I don't want you to swallow them. Just spill them on the floor twice a day and pick them up, one at a time."

On Sun, 06 Mar 2016 15:18:08 -0000, "Mr Macaw" wrote:

On Sun, 06 Mar 2016 05:04:22 -0000, wrote:

On Sat, 05 Mar 2016 21:11:01 -0000, "Mr Macaw" wrote:

On Sat, 05 Mar 2016 19:50:19 -0000, wrote:


More wires and outlets all over the house, inconvenient I guess.

Why are more outlets "inconvenient"?

Because of the two different types. If I want to plug in a hoover, I use any outlet. You have to find one of the right voltage. So to make it as likely to have one, you need twice as many outlets.

We don't really have that much 240v equipment and most is fixed in
place. The required outlets are all 120v


In fact our code requires that you are pretty much never more than 6
feet from a receptacle, not crossing a door or other opening.

Why on earth would convenience be in your code? I thought "code" was for safety?

In the case of receptacle spacing, the safety thing is limiting the
number of extension cords used and making it unnecessary to string
cords across openings.
There are plenty of people who say we have allowed too many things
into the code that are not safety related. Manufacturers have a lot of
influence in the code process.


240 equipment is generally going to be fixed in place anyway.

I will say that in my travels I was impressed with the 240v tea
kettle, if you really make that much tea.

So what are your kettles? 110 volts and 1.5kW? That would take an age to boil. Or do they have a 30 amp flex?

What about an iron? A portable fan-heater or convector heater? There are loads of appliances which need a lot of power that you may wish to move about.


120v equipment is pretty much limited to 1440w. Irons seem to function
just fine at 1kw or less and we don't really drink that much tea.
I am not sure you can even buy a dedicated tea kettle here. People
boil water on the stove where they have plenty of power.
We really try to avoid the use of portable heaters by having robust
central systems but there are still plenty of 1440w heaters around.
They cause a disproportionate number of the fires, usually in older
homes with bad electrical systems.

If we're not in the middle of nowhere, heating, hot water, and cooking is done by gas (it's 3 times cheaper), so we don't use that much electricity. Showers, washing machines, and dishwashers tend to heat their own water, so those and a tumble dryer (our weather is very damp) are about the only things that wil use much.

My usage ranges from about 2 MWH a month

Looking at my last bill, I used 1.5MWH between April 25th and Oct 11th, which is several times less than you. WTF are you doing with all that power?

Pumping and heating water, cooking, heat and A/C, running a spa and a
pool. It starts adding up fast I guess
Heat is not really an issue but when we do it we have toaster wire
heaters. I have not had the central heat on in a couple of years but
we do have a 1440w "electric fireplace" in the living room that my
wife uses on cold mornings for a little warm up.

That is between $200 and $300 with all the fees taxes and other
charges.

Here, 2.5MWH would cost £340 = $480, about twice what you pay. Why is America cheaper for everything? There's a phrase "rip off Britain" but nobody knows why it's the case.

I imagine you have a tad more in taxes but we also use natural gas for
electrical generation and that is pretty cheap here.

On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 11:26:55 AM UTC-5, Ralph Mowery wrote:
"Mr Macaw" wrote in message news
On Sun, 06 Mar 2016 15:41:43 -0000, Ralph Mowery
wrote:


Not really. Heaters here are 3kW. You're getting 1.8kW, suitable for a
hall maybe.


Most houses have central heating so not that much use for the portable
heaters. The portable heaters cost more to operate that gas, oil, heat pump
systems.


+1

And if you want to use one in say a bedroom, the 120V ones seem to
be adequate. I guess with 240V you could heat it up a lot faster,
but for maintaining, seems 120V is fine. If you need 240V, heat
multiple areas that way, you'd have a hell of a bill, here at least.

On Sun, 06 Mar 2016 16:34:32 -0000, Ralph Mowery wrote:


"Mr Macaw" wrote in message news
On Sun, 06 Mar 2016 15:41:43 -0000, Ralph Mowery
wrote:


Not really. Heaters here are 3kW. You're getting 1.8kW, suitable for a
hall maybe.


Most houses have central heating so not that much use for the portable
heaters. The portable heaters cost more to operate that gas, oil, heat pump
systems.

They tend to get used for one offs, like the central heating is broken, or you want to dry out something quickly.

We used to have washing machines which COULD heat the water, but if you
were doing a warm wash they'd take half or all the water from the hot
water system, but some idiot has decided to make them all cold fill,
citing some ******** about it's cheaper than having your hot water tank
heated up. But at the same time, we've all gone over to gas combi boilers
which heat the water on demand anyway! Then I heard some crap about "the
washing machine will take cold water from the pipe before it gets there
from the boiler", which is wrong because if you turn on a hot tap, it's
hot pretty much straight away.

We normally feed hot and cold water to the washing machines and a valve on
the machine blends them depending on hot, warm, cold. Most places have the
hot water tanks of about 30 to 50 gallons and while there is a push for the
on demand hot water, not all that many use it, or not in the area I live in.
Usually the washer is not too far from the water heater.

Space is more of a problem in UK houses, so having no hot water tank is good.

dryers are 240 volts and have a special plug for that,

I can put my dryer anywhere I want in the house. I'd find it very
annoying to have to rewire the house when I want to move it.

Dryers are not normally moved and placed next to the washing machine which
is not moved due to the water lines. Also as the dryers vent the hot air
and has lint in it, they are usually vented to the outside of the house.
Good for summer and bad in winter.

I have my dryer in the garage out of the way, and it used to be in the kitchen, in two different places as I rearranged the room. I wouldn't want to have had to move the outlet.

Irons are 120 volts,

Ours take long enough to heat up, yours must take all day.

but not many use them now.

Why would you stop using irons?

It does not take all that long for the iron to heat up. Takes too much time
to iron the cloths.. Perment press came out years ago. We don't even have
an ironing board. The jobs we have just require working and not dress
cloths. The wife will put a towel or something over the bar in the kitchen
to do some ironing if we relly need something ironed.

Permanent press? What is that? Like a big trouser press thing?

What amperage are your outlet circuits? We tend to have 240V 30A for the
whole house on one loop. So you can run two or three big things without
overloading, never have to think about it.

Most houses are wired with 120 volt and 15 amp circuits. One good thing
about it is that if a breaker does trip it only effects the outlets of one
room. There are usually seperate 120 volt circuits for the refrigerator,
washing machine and a few other high current items that are not often moved
around.

So you can't use two 15 amp appliances in one room? That would be very annoying.

I saw once a picture of double outlet for the USA, where the top one was 0v and 120v and the bottom one was 0v and -120v. So you could get 30 amps total there. I guess you could then even have a 240v outlet in the middle.

Just looking and my bill shows 2,039 KWH for this past month. That is
for
all electric and I have a well for water. Been using the portable heater
for
an unheated room in the basement some this winter. The summer bill is
not
usuall too much less due to AC. Lots less in months we do not heat or
cool.
The heat is by a heat pump.

The code is for safety. Most items come with about 6 feet of cord, so
outlets are usually every 6 feet of wall space by the code. Several
circuits for the kitchen area.

So to stop you having wires to trip over? That's going way too far with
safety, I thought the UK was bad. The only rules we have for outlets is
when installed near water, like in the bathroom. For some reason the
rules are tighter than the kitchen, which has just as much water!

But then most of us do our own electrical work and just ignore all that
**** anyway. My house, I'll have an outlet in the bathroom if I want. If
I didn't, I'd only run an extension cord in there anyway.

My house has 2 outlets in the bathroom connected to a GFCI breaker in the
breaker box.

The house was built around 1980 and I think the code at that time required
the GFCI for bathroom and outside recepticals.

My house has fuses. I detest breakers as they trip unnecessarily.

There is a large book for the National Electric Code. It is not mandantory
for the different states, but most areas go by it or something very close to
it. From what I understand there are lots of differentrules for wiring in
the country. Some areas you have to have a licensed electrician to do any
wiring.

If it's in your own house, who is going to know? It's nobody's business but yours anyway!

Here, we're not supposed to do our own gas plumbing, but I ignore that too. It's no more difficult than water plumbing.

Where I live you can do you own wiwring,but are expected for it to
meet the code. If you wire for someone as a job then you have to be
licensed and have it inspected.

I think they're trying to do that here. At the moment, you can get a certification to be an electrician, but it's not mandatory, and it's up to the customer if they choose someone with one or not (with are more expensive).

I did one wiring at my house that is not
to any code. Ran a # 10 wiring from the breaker box on a 30 amp breaker to
an outside receptical ( actually a combination) where I can get 120 or 240
volts, but its main use is to hook up a 5 kw generator that I have incase of
a power outage.

Ah, so it's actually an inlet? It would feed back into the house?

--
Three guys go to a ski lodge, and there aren't enough rooms, so they have to share a bed. In the middle of the night, the guy on the right wakes up and says, "I had this wild, vivid dream of getting a hand job!" The guy on the left wakes up, and unbelievably, he's had the same dream, too. Then the guy in the middle wakes up and says, "That's funny, I dreamt I was skiing!"

On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 11:41:06 AM UTC-5, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Sun, 06 Mar 2016 16:32:19 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 10:18:16 AM UTC-5, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Sun, 06 Mar 2016 05:04:22 -0000, wrote:

Why are more outlets "inconvenient"?

Because of the two different types. If I want to plug in a hoover, I use any outlet. You have to find one of the right voltage. So to make it as likely to have one, you need twice as many outlets.

All the common everyday appliances, eg microwave, electric kettle, lamps, vacuums, are 120V here and those are the only outlets distributed around the
house.

So your vacuum must have quite a beefy cord on it. Our vacuums typically use 5 amps, the the flex is quite flexible.


They don't seem beefy to me. I don't see why a small electric motor at 240V
would use 5 amps. A 1 hp motor uses about 7. Even my shop type
vac has a cord that I'd say is about the size of a pencil.



240V is used for electric dryers and ovens and it's about the only
place you'd find a 240V receptacle in a typical house. Some might have
it for some shop type gear, in their basement, garage etc too.

In fact our code requires that you are pretty much never more than 6
feet from a receptacle, not crossing a door or other opening.

Why on earth would convenience be in your code? I thought "code" was for safety?

That is part of safety. Having sufficient receptacles within a given
distance means that people are less likely to run extension cords which
are a known hazard, for example.

I wasn't aware America was over the top on safety. An extension cord is not a hazard, what do you think it's going to do? Catch fire for no reason?


They are actually the source of a lot of fires. People put them under
carpets for example, where they get rubbed, frayed. Or they take a
minimal gauge cord and plug 6 things into it. Or they string together
several short ones, that aren't in the greatest shape, etc. Plus
they are a trip hazard. Plugging a hot plate or similar in on an
extension, you could trip on the extension and have a hot pot of
water land on you.




240 equipment is generally going to be fixed in place anyway.

I will say that in my travels I was impressed with the 240v tea
kettle, if you really make that much tea.

So what are your kettles? 110 volts and 1.5kW? That would take an age to boil. Or do they have a 30 amp flex?

~1.5KW is what they are. I would agree, 240V for that would be real
sweet. Still the 120V electric kettle can heat it faster than using
the range and more efficiently.

I find the 3kW one too slow if it's full.


I can see that. The 120V one here I used to heat about a liter of
water to make coffee or tea. If I need more water than that, I do
it on the stove. I agree having a 240V electric kettle would be a
very handy thing. I never thought about it until you brought it up.
Maybe we can get something started here, put in 240V receptacles for
new kitchens. I'd like it.



What about an iron? A portable fan-heater or convector heater? There are loads of appliances which need a lot of power that you may wish to move about.

They too are limited to ~1500W. There are some that require a 20A
circuit, have a different plug, but those are the exception, not typical.

If we're not in the middle of nowhere, heating, hot water, and cooking is done by gas (it's 3 times cheaper), so we don't use that much electricity.

Same here. If nat gas is available, it's by far the most economical.
Electric is usually most expensive. We've found a tremendous amount of
new nat gas in the last decade or so.

I think ours is all from the North Sea, which being in Scotland I'm right next to.

Showers, washing machines, and dishwashers tend to heat their own water, so those and a tumble dryer (our weather is very damp) are about the only things that wil use much.

Here shower and washing machine, in vast majority of cases, don't
heat their own water. Electric dryers do and are on a 240V receptacle.

Do you still have those washing machines like I saw on a TV show once, where the detergent is dispensed automatically fro a big tank above it?


I've never seen those. Trend now is to more front loaders. There the
detergent goes into a reservoir at the top of the machine, but I think
it's loaded for each use.

On Sun, 06 Mar 2016 15:31:58 -0000, "Mr Macaw" wrote:

On Sun, 06 Mar 2016 15:27:28 -0000, Ralph Mowery wrote:


"Mr Macaw" wrote in message news
.

What is an "ice storm"? Is that the same as a "hail storm"? Our
transformers never seem to break.


The ice storm is when the rain fall out of the sky and freezes on the power
lines and trees. It can build up to several inches in diameter. Often the
ice is more than the tree or some of the big limbs can stand and they break
and fall across the power lines. Sometimes could be called freezing rain.

Unlike hail that is already frozen and does not usually stick to the wires
and trees. Hail can be large enough to damage things but does not usually
take out the power lines.

That's very odd and seems to be against the laws of physics. If it's below freezing on the branches, how come it's above freezing higher up (where you'd expect it to be colder) causing rain and not hail?

The only time we get too much weight on branches is in colder parts (North Scotland) where SNOW falls on things. Snow has the ability to stick of course, and builds up.

This ice thing happens when the temp is hovering around 0c. the rain
mixed with snow (aka the dreaded "sleet and freezing rain")
accumulates on ice that is already there and freezes creating another
layer. It is just a strange thing that doesn't make as much sense as
you would like but seeing a CM coating of ice on anything that it
lands on makes it a reality. These things can be quite beautiful until
stuff starts breaking. Imagine a forest of trees apparently made of
glass. On a full moon night it is breath taking.
The biggest part of the electrical problem is the reluctance of
northern folks to cut back trees around power lines.
Down here in Florida they are very aggressive about eliminating
anything growing in the right of way. You really do not own the land
in front of your house within about 3m of the road (where the power
lines run) and the power company has the power to cut anything that
encroaches into that space. They do. People accept it because of the
number of wind storms we have. The power companies are really working
to get as much as this as they can, underground. Around here, the
phone company is already there and my landline is actually more
reliable than the cell after a hurricane. I have never lost it in 32
years.

On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 11:49:03 AM UTC-5, Mr Macaw wrote:


Permanent press? What is that? Like a big trouser press thing?


They must have that in the UK too. It's where the fabric is made so
that it holds it shape and doesn't need to be pressed after washing.
Some is less than perfect though. So, it might require some pressing
depending on how fussy you are. Things that really need to be pressed,
eg dress shirts, I just take to the cleaners.




What amperage are your outlet circuits? We tend to have 240V 30A for the
whole house on one loop. So you can run two or three big things without
overloading, never have to think about it.

Most houses are wired with 120 volt and 15 amp circuits. One good thing
about it is that if a breaker does trip it only effects the outlets of one
room. There are usually seperate 120 volt circuits for the refrigerator,
washing machine and a few other high current items that are not often moved
around.

So you can't use two 15 amp appliances in one room? That would be very annoying.


You can if some of the receptacles are on different circuits, which they
may be. Very common to have them split up that way. But I can't recall
when I've ever had two 15A appliances in one room, except the kitchen.
Kitchens in current code have to have at least two 20A circuits.



I saw once a picture of double outlet for the USA, where the top one was 0v and 120v and the bottom one was 0v and -120v. So you could get 30 amps total there. I guess you could then even have a 240v outlet in the middle.


I never saw one of those.



Just looking and my bill shows 2,039 KWH for this past month. That is
for
all electric and I have a well for water. Been using the portable heater
for
an unheated room in the basement some this winter. The summer bill is
not
usuall too much less due to AC. Lots less in months we do not heat or
cool.
The heat is by a heat pump.

The code is for safety. Most items come with about 6 feet of cord, so
outlets are usually every 6 feet of wall space by the code. Several
circuits for the kitchen area.

So to stop you having wires to trip over? That's going way too far with
safety, I thought the UK was bad. The only rules we have for outlets is
when installed near water, like in the bathroom. For some reason the
rules are tighter than the kitchen, which has just as much water!

But then most of us do our own electrical work and just ignore all that
**** anyway. My house, I'll have an outlet in the bathroom if I want. If
I didn't, I'd only run an extension cord in there anyway.

My house has 2 outlets in the bathroom connected to a GFCI breaker in the
breaker box.

The house was built around 1980 and I think the code at that time required
the GFCI for bathroom and outside recepticals.

My house has fuses. I detest breakers as they trip unnecessarily.


Decades of experience with breakers here, in multiple properties,
businesses, etc. No problem with them tripping unnecessarily. Once
in a blue moon one can go bad for sure, but I can't ever recall that
happening to me.




There is a large book for the National Electric Code. It is not mandantory
for the different states, but most areas go by it or something very close to
it. From what I understand there are lots of differentrules for wiring in
the country. Some areas you have to have a licensed electrician to do any
wiring.

If it's in your own house, who is going to know? It's nobody's business but yours anyway!


Until you go to sell it, the buyer has it inspected, and the inspector
finds a bunch of violations. There is also the theoretical possibility
of the case of a fire, and if the fire resulted from some obvious hack
job that they could show you did, without a permit, the insurance company
might deny the claim. Or even worse, if the house burned down with your
neighbors kid killed during a sleep-over, you could be in deep doo doo too.




Here, we're not supposed to do our own gas plumbing, but I ignore that too. It's no more difficult than water plumbing.


As long as you do it right, all is good.




Where I live you can do you own wiwring,but are expected for it to
meet the code. If you wire for someone as a job then you have to be
licensed and have it inspected.

I think they're trying to do that here. At the moment, you can get a certification to be an electrician, but it's not mandatory, and it's up to the customer if they choose someone with one or not (with are more expensive).


Wow, that's interesting. Here you can do it yourself on your own house.
But I can't do it legally for a friend on their house. Nor can I do it
if it's a rental property I own. Funny, we always think that you tend
to have more regulations over there.

On Sun, 06 Mar 2016 09:31:58 -0600, Mr Macaw wrote:


That's very odd and seems to be against the laws of physics. If it's
below freezing on the branches, how come it's above freezing higher up
(where you'd expect it to be colder) causing rain and not hail?

The only time we get too much weight on branches is in colder parts
(North Scotland) where SNOW falls on things. Snow has the ability to
stick of course, and builds up.

Some pictures here
http://nlcs1.nlc.state.ne.us/docs/pilot/pubs/storm1976.pdf of damage from
an ice storm in Nebraska back in 1976. Nebraska is a bit north of
the center of the continental U.S.
The power companies were using helicopters to haul the towers to the
fields and set them in place. The towers were built at old WWII
airfields. The storm hit in the spring so the fields were thawing
and there was the usual spring moisture to contend with.


--
Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 10:00:21 AM UTC-5, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Sun, 06 Mar 2016 07:25:01 -0000, Micky wrote:

On Sat, 05 Mar 2016 14:50:19 -0500, wrote:


Over here in the colonies we take that 240v and center tap the
transformer so both ungrounded legs are 120v above ground. That still
gives us the ability to use 240v equipment but most ends up being
120v. I suppose we can blame Thomas Edison for that. He started a fear
campaign against Nick Tesla over AC current, Edison wanted DC and he
said AC was more deadly, to the point of electrocuting an elephant
along with more than a few condemned prisoners ... all with AC.
When he lost the war, the deadly part still stuck and the belief was
that 120 would be safer, still leaving the option of having 240v
equipment.

I thought 240 was indeed more deadly than 120 and that more people
died of shocks, per capita, in the UK than here. How could 240 not
be more deadly than 120?

Isn't it the case that if either of them goes through your heart it can kill you? Anything over 80 volts or something like that is all the same.

The only difference is that much higher voltages can burn your skin, or jump across gaps where you least expect it. But that's kV.

--
Take notice: when this sign is under water, this road is impassable.

It's the current that kills. Not sure on the numbers, but maybe on
the order of 30ma and above can effect the heart rhythm. The human
body has some resistance, X. If you put 240V across that, you're going
to get 2x the current as you do with 120V. But.... That's really a
red herring the way the system works here. To get 240V you'd have to
be across both hot wires, which is extremely unlikely. Most common
is for you to connect between one hot wire and ground, like standing
in water, touching an appliance case, faucet, etc. In that case
you'd still only get 120V. Between each hot and ground you have 120V.
Not sure how it works over there.

On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 11:41:24 AM UTC-5, wrote:


120v equipment is pretty much limited to 1440w. Irons seem to function
just fine at 1kw or less and we don't really drink that much tea.
I am not sure you can even buy a dedicated tea kettle here. People
boil water on the stove where they have plenty of power.

They are actually readily available. Most places that sell toaster,
mixers, coffee makers, etc should have them. They are called electric
kettles. I'd post a link, but it's too long. I have one, very
handy, use it to make coffee every morning. But then I use a French
press to make coffee, most people probably use a coffee maker.

"Mr Macaw" wrote in message news
On Sun, 06 Mar 2016 16:34:32 -0000, Ralph Mowery
wrote:



Space is more of a problem in UK houses, so having no hot water tank is
good.

Guess that it all in where one lives. I have alway lived in a house. Grew
up in a town of about 20,000 and lived about 8 blocks from the middle of
town. House was about 1000 sq ft of living and another 200 feet of unheated
space.
The other houses were somewhat larger and of town. Now have about 2000 sqft
on 3 acers. All had plenty of space for the water heater. I could see it
in apartment houses. Have not been in any of the large cities but would
think they would have a large tank or two for the building.


dryers are 240 volts and have a special plug for that,

I can put my dryer anywhere I want in the house. I'd find it very
annoying to have to rewire the house when I want to move it.



It does not take all that long for the iron to heat up. Takes too much
time
to iron the cloths.. Perment press came out years ago. We don't even
have
an ironing board. The jobs we have just require working and not dress
cloths. The wife will put a towel or something over the bar in the
kitchen
to do some ironing if we relly need something ironed.

Permanent press? What is that? Like a big trouser press thing?

The material is permanent press. You just take the warm cloths out of the
dryer and hang them up. Just don't let them get cold in the dryer. If you
do they will have all kinds of wrinkles in them. You can dampen them and
run the dryer for a short time if this hapens.



So you can't use two 15 amp appliances in one room? That would be very
annoying.

Some rooms will be fed by 2 circuits. Especially the kitchen area where one
might want to run the instant coffee pot and toaster or microwave at the
same time.


I saw once a picture of double outlet for the USA, where the top one was
0v and 120v and the bottom one was 0v and -120v. So you could get 30 amps
total there. I guess you could then even have a 240v outlet in the
middle.

Most outlets are the double kind,but are wired to the same breaker so only a
total of 15 amps can be used. The outside one I mentioned that I put in was
wired so each side could actually get 30 amps at 120 volts or there is a 240
volt outlet in the same box good for 30 amps. They are all connected to the
same breaker so the total of 120 and 240 can only be 30 amps.


The code is for safety. Most items come with about 6 feet of cord, so
outlets are usually every 6 feet of wall space by the code. Several
circuits for the kitchen area.

So to stop you having wires to trip over? That's going way too far with
safety, I thought the UK was bad. The only rules we have for outlets is
when installed near water, like in the bathroom. For some reason the
rules are tighter than the kitchen, which has just as much water!

Some of the code is way above ,but guess the government is trying to prevent
people from doing stupid things. They are regulating how hot the coffee can
be in restraunts now. Seems that a while aback someone got some hot coffee
at a drive through and spilled it on their selves and got burnt and sued and
won about 5 or 6 million dollars for that.



I did one wiring at my house that is not
to any code. Ran a # 10 wiring from the breaker box on a 30 amp breaker
to
an outside receptical ( actually a combination) where I can get 120 or
240
volts, but its main use is to hook up a 5 kw generator that I have incase
of
a power outage.

Ah, so it's actually an inlet? It would feed back into the house?


That was the main reason, Make it so I could use my gasoline powered 5 kw
generator to power part of the house if the power is out.

wrote in message
...
On Sun, 06 Mar 2016 15:31:58 -0000, "Mr Macaw" wrote:
The biggest part of the electrical problem is the reluctance of
northern folks to cut back trees around power lines.
Down here in Florida they are very aggressive about eliminating
anything growing in the right of way. You really do not own the land
in front of your house within about 3m of the road (where the power
lines run) and the power company has the power to cut anything that
encroaches into that space. They do. People accept it because of the
number of wind storms we have. The power companies are really working
to get as much as this as they can, underground. Around here, the
phone company is already there and my landline is actually more
reliable than the cell after a hurricane. I have never lost it in 32
years.


Around here I don't think it is because of the people,but the power company
does not want to spend the money to do the cutting. Years ago they used to
cut trees all the time, but quit and the trees grew up and the power has
been a problem.

On 3/5/2016 9:42 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Saturday, March 5, 2016 at 8:41:02 AM UTC-5, Stormin Mormon wrote:

The ground wire in question comes in from outdoors
(in a plastic wrapped sheath with two hots and a
neutral). The ground wire presently connects to
the same metal bar, about an inch from where the
neutral connects.


As previously explained, the ground and the neutral are supposed
to be connected together at the service disconnect. Exactly how
they are connected may vary depending on the panel. Did you pull
up the instructions for the specific panel?

CY: No, didn't think of that.


It is possible (enough wire to work with) to move
the ground wire (from outdoors) to a screw connector
on one of the two ground screw bars.


Why do you think you need to move anything?


CY: Because at least one outlet shows open ground.

On 3/5/2016 12:37 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 5 Mar 2016 07:46:11 -0500, Stormin Mormon

Anyone wish to answer the OP's OQ?
I answered the OP's question. It's OK, don't screw with it.


Thanks, Clare.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On 3/6/2016 11:32 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 10:18:16 AM UTC-5, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Sun, 06 Mar 2016 05:04:22 -0000, wrote:


Why are more outlets "inconvenient"?

Because of the two different types. If I want to plug in a hoover, I use any outlet. You have to find one of the right voltage. So to make it as likely to have one, you need twice as many outlets.


All the common everyday appliances, eg microwave, electric kettle, lamps, vacuums, are 120V here and those are the only outlets distributed around the
house. 240V is used for electric dryers and ovens and it's about the only
place you'd find a 240V receptacle in a typical house. Some might have
it for some shop type gear, in their basement, garage etc too.


I've seen 220 or 240 volt outlets for through
the wall AC. 12,000 BTU per hour and larger,
most often.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On 3/6/2016 12:07 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 11:49:03 AM UTC-5, Mr Macaw wrote:


Permanent press? What is that? Like a big trouser press thing?


They must have that in the UK too. It's where the fabric is made so
that it holds it shape and doesn't need to be pressed after washing.
Some is less than perfect though. So, it might require some pressing
depending on how fussy you are. Things that really need to be pressed,
eg dress shirts, I just take to the cleaners.


Should you move the ground leg to the ground bar
if the panel is permanant press?


--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 12:52:59 PM UTC-5, Stormin Mormon wrote:


Why do you think you need to move anything?


CY: Because at least one outlet shows open ground.

From everything you've posted here about the situation at the panel,
I see nothing that would have anything to do with that. It's all
normal. You have the neutral and ground connected together at
the panel. If there is an open ground on a circuit, it sounds like
a problem on that circuit.

On 3/5/2016 2:40 PM, TomR wrote:
In ,
Stormin Mormon typed:

Anyone wish to answer the OP's OQ?

Hey, Opie (err..ah.., I mean OP),

Your question was answered many times, and then answered again after you
posted more info about what you apparently incorrectly considered to be a
"service disconnect" on the outside -- the meter box.

While I know you can be quite a character here sometimes, it is not really
like you to not realize that your original question was already answered
many times over.

Makes me wonder if you are having a bad day, or a bad week, there in
Mayberry :-)



I'm having a bad week. A totally, really bad week.

Lot of family dynamics going on. And none of it
is at all good or pleasant. My life is making some
major changes. Stress level is some where between
high and extreme.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On 3/6/2016 1:14 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 12:52:59 PM UTC-5, Stormin Mormon wrote:


Why do you think you need to move anything?


CY: Because at least one outlet shows open ground.

From everything you've posted here about the situation at the panel,
I see nothing that would have anything to do with that. It's all
normal. You have the neutral and ground connected together at
the panel. If there is an open ground on a circuit, it sounds like
a problem on that circuit.

Thanks. I'll proceed with that idea. I also plan
some day to test a couple other outlets, see if
the open ground is just in the one branch circuit.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On Sun, 6 Mar 2016 09:12:14 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 10:00:21 AM UTC-5, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Sun, 06 Mar 2016 07:25:01 -0000, Micky wrote:

On Sat, 05 Mar 2016 14:50:19 -0500, wrote:


Over here in the colonies we take that 240v and center tap the
transformer so both ungrounded legs are 120v above ground. That still
gives us the ability to use 240v equipment but most ends up being
120v. I suppose we can blame Thomas Edison for that. He started a fear
campaign against Nick Tesla over AC current, Edison wanted DC and he
said AC was more deadly, to the point of electrocuting an elephant
along with more than a few condemned prisoners ... all with AC.
When he lost the war, the deadly part still stuck and the belief was
that 120 would be safer, still leaving the option of having 240v
equipment.

I thought 240 was indeed more deadly than 120 and that more people
died of shocks, per capita, in the UK than here. How could 240 not
be more deadly than 120?

Isn't it the case that if either of them goes through your heart it can kill you? Anything over 80 volts or something like that is all the same.

The only difference is that much higher voltages can burn your skin, or jump across gaps where you least expect it. But that's kV.

--
Take notice: when this sign is under water, this road is impassable.

It's the current that kills. Not sure on the numbers, but maybe on
the order of 30ma and above can effect the heart rhythm. The human
body has some resistance, X. If you put 240V across that, you're going
to get 2x the current as you do with 120V. But.... That's really a
red herring the way the system works here. To get 240V you'd have to
be across both hot wires, which is extremely unlikely. Most common

You're thinking about the USA.

Mr. Macaw just posted that the two wires coming into his home in the
UK were 240 and 0.

The comparison I had made was between the UK and the USA, and I said I
thought more people died of shocks, per capita, in the UK than the
USA.

is for you to connect between one hot wire and ground, like standing
in water, touching an appliance case, faucet, etc. In that case
you'd still only get 120V. Between each hot and ground you have 120V.
Not sure how it works over there.