I noticed a friends's Square D panel, the
neutral and ground (from the utility company
feed) are connected to the same bar. And less
than an inch apart.

Shouldn't the ground be connected to the
separate ground bar?

Should I move the ground wire?

--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On Thu, 3 Mar 2016 21:40:14 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

I noticed a friends's Square D panel, the
neutral and ground (from the utility company
feed) are connected to the same bar. And less
than an inch apart.

Shouldn't the ground be connected to the
separate ground bar?

Should I move the ground wire?

I had a girlfriend who told me that the earth moved. So I guess she'd
say yes.

On Thu, 3 Mar 2016 21:40:14 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

I noticed a friends's Square D panel, the
neutral and ground (from the utility company
feed) are connected to the same bar. And less
than an inch apart.

Shouldn't the ground be connected to the
separate ground bar?

Should I move the ground wire?

No if this is the service disconnect enclosure where the ground
electrode conductor lands and the main disconnect resides they will be
on the same bus bar.

On 3/3/2016 11:47 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 3 Mar 2016 21:40:14 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

I noticed a friends's Square D panel, the
neutral and ground (from the utility company
feed) are connected to the same bar. And less
than an inch apart.

Shouldn't the ground be connected to the
separate ground bar?

Should I move the ground wire?

No if this is the service disconnect enclosure where the ground
electrode conductor lands and the main disconnect resides they will be
on the same bus bar.


The question is about the circuit breaker panel
in the cellar. There is a main breaker, but I'd
not call it a main disconnect.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 7:00:14 AM UTC-5, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 3/3/2016 11:47 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 3 Mar 2016 21:40:14 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

I noticed a friends's Square D panel, the
neutral and ground (from the utility company
feed) are connected to the same bar. And less
than an inch apart.

Shouldn't the ground be connected to the
separate ground bar?

Should I move the ground wire?

No if this is the service disconnect enclosure where the ground
electrode conductor lands and the main disconnect resides they will be
on the same bus bar.


The question is about the circuit breaker panel
in the cellar. There is a main breaker, but I'd
not call it a main disconnect.


Unless there is another disconnect before it, then the main
breaker is the main and only disconnect. Most panels here,
the main breaker serves as the disconnect.

On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 7:00:14 AM UTC-5, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 3/3/2016 11:47 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 3 Mar 2016 21:40:14 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

I noticed a friends's Square D panel, the
neutral and ground (from the utility company
feed) are connected to the same bar. And less
than an inch apart.

Shouldn't the ground be connected to the
separate ground bar?

Should I move the ground wire?

No if this is the service disconnect enclosure where the ground
electrode conductor lands and the main disconnect resides they will be
on the same bus bar.


The question is about the circuit breaker panel
in the cellar. There is a main breaker, but I'd
not call it a main disconnect.


What would you call the main disconnect?

Is there another disconnect between the pole/underground wires and the
panel? If not, the main breaker in the panel is also the main disconnect.

On 3/4/2016 9:39 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 7:00:14 AM UTC-5, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 3/3/2016 11:47 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 3 Mar 2016 21:40:14 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

I noticed a friends's Square D panel, the
neutral and ground (from the utility company
feed) are connected to the same bar. And less
than an inch apart.

Shouldn't the ground be connected to the
separate ground bar?

Should I move the ground wire?

No if this is the service disconnect enclosure where the ground
electrode conductor lands and the main disconnect resides they will be
on the same bus bar.


The question is about the circuit breaker panel
in the cellar. There is a main breaker, but I'd
not call it a main disconnect.


What would you call the main disconnect?

Is there another disconnect between the pole/underground wires and the
panel? If not, the main breaker in the panel is also the main disconnect.


Mains = wire coming in from the power company.
Main disconnect = a disconnect outside the house.
(yes, I've seen these before.)
Main breaker = the breaker that shuts off power
to all the smaller breakers.

I do not call a breaker in a panel a "main
disconnect".

--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 9:52:48 AM UTC-5, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 3/4/2016 9:39 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 7:00:14 AM UTC-5, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 3/3/2016 11:47 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 3 Mar 2016 21:40:14 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

I noticed a friends's Square D panel, the
neutral and ground (from the utility company
feed) are connected to the same bar. And less
than an inch apart.

Shouldn't the ground be connected to the
separate ground bar?

Should I move the ground wire?

No if this is the service disconnect enclosure where the ground
electrode conductor lands and the main disconnect resides they will be
on the same bus bar.


The question is about the circuit breaker panel
in the cellar. There is a main breaker, but I'd
not call it a main disconnect.


What would you call the main disconnect?

Is there another disconnect between the pole/underground wires and the
panel? If not, the main breaker in the panel is also the main disconnect.


Mains = wire coming in from the power company.
Main disconnect = a disconnect outside the house.
(yes, I've seen these before.)
Main breaker = the breaker that shuts off power
to all the smaller breakers.

I do not call a breaker in a panel a "main
disconnect".


Just because you don't call it a "main disconnect" doesn't make you
right.

Main disconnect a disconnect outside the house.

"2008 NEC Article 230.70 (A) (1)
The service disconnecting means shall be installed at a readily
accessible location either outside of a building or structure or
inside nearest the point of entrance of the service conductors."

The "breaker panel" inside the house could be a "service panel"
or a "distribution panel". If the main breaker is enclosed in that
panel and serves as the main disconnect, then the panel is a "service
panel". If the "main disconnect" is in an enclosure by itself which then
feeds another enclosure full of breakers for the individual circuits,
then the "first" enclosure is the service panel and the "second" is the distribution panel.

Review the conversation in this thread, or any other site of your choice:

(Sorry for the long link, I can not access tinyurl at this time)

http://www.inspectionnews.net/home_i...ice-panel.html

On Thursday, March 3, 2016 at 8:40:19 PM UTC-6, Stormin Mormon wrote:
I noticed a friends's Square D panel, the
neutral and ground (from the utility company
feed) are connected to the same bar. And less
than an inch apart.

Shouldn't the ground be connected to the
separate ground bar?

Should I move the ground wire?
--
.
Standard practice is for the ground and neutral be bonded together at the main disconnect which could be the main breaker panel. The ground and neutral are separate (floating) in a sub panel. If I remember correctly, a bonding screw must bond the ground to the breaker panel. I'd have to look it up for the official wording and to make sure I'm correct. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Grounded Monster

On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 09:52:45 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 3/4/2016 9:39 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 7:00:14 AM UTC-5, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 3/3/2016 11:47 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 3 Mar 2016 21:40:14 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

I noticed a friends's Square D panel, the
neutral and ground (from the utility company
feed) are connected to the same bar. And less
than an inch apart.

Shouldn't the ground be connected to the
separate ground bar?

Should I move the ground wire?

No if this is the service disconnect enclosure where the ground
electrode conductor lands and the main disconnect resides they will be
on the same bus bar.


The question is about the circuit breaker panel
in the cellar. There is a main breaker, but I'd
not call it a main disconnect.


What would you call the main disconnect?

Is there another disconnect between the pole/underground wires and the
panel? If not, the main breaker in the panel is also the main disconnect.


Mains = wire coming in from the power company.
Main disconnect = a disconnect outside the house.
(yes, I've seen these before.)
Main breaker = the breaker that shuts off power
to all the smaller breakers.

I do not call a breaker in a panel a "main
disconnect".

I wouldn't either, I would call it the service disconnect if it was
the first disconnecting means after the service point. (the place
where the utility's wires connect to yours)

On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 12:29:35 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 09:52:45 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 3/4/2016 9:39 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 7:00:14 AM UTC-5, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 3/3/2016 11:47 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 3 Mar 2016 21:40:14 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

I noticed a friends's Square D panel, the
neutral and ground (from the utility company
feed) are connected to the same bar. And less
than an inch apart.

Shouldn't the ground be connected to the
separate ground bar?

Should I move the ground wire?

No if this is the service disconnect enclosure where the ground
electrode conductor lands and the main disconnect resides they will be
on the same bus bar.


The question is about the circuit breaker panel
in the cellar. There is a main breaker, but I'd
not call it a main disconnect.


What would you call the main disconnect?

Is there another disconnect between the pole/underground wires and the
panel? If not, the main breaker in the panel is also the main disconnect.


Mains = wire coming in from the power company.
Main disconnect = a disconnect outside the house.
(yes, I've seen these before.)
Main breaker = the breaker that shuts off power
to all the smaller breakers.

I do not call a breaker in a panel a "main
disconnect".

I wouldn't either, I would call it the service disconnect if it was
the first disconnecting means after the service point. (the place
where the utility's wires connect to yours)

Not pushing back, just curious...

Do you not call it a "main disconnect" based on some official terminology or
just based on your preference? The reason I ask is this:

If I DAGS for images of Main Disconnect or images of Service Disconnect,
I get a combination of images that use either of those terms, and even a
Main Service Disconnect thrown in every now and then.

Some images come from Home Inspection sites, some come from .gov sites,
etc. There doesn't seem to be a "standard".

On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 11:04:44 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 12:29:35 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 09:52:45 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 3/4/2016 9:39 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 7:00:14 AM UTC-5, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 3/3/2016 11:47 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 3 Mar 2016 21:40:14 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

I noticed a friends's Square D panel, the
neutral and ground (from the utility company
feed) are connected to the same bar. And less
than an inch apart.

Shouldn't the ground be connected to the
separate ground bar?

Should I move the ground wire?

No if this is the service disconnect enclosure where the ground
electrode conductor lands and the main disconnect resides they will be
on the same bus bar.


The question is about the circuit breaker panel
in the cellar. There is a main breaker, but I'd
not call it a main disconnect.


What would you call the main disconnect?

Is there another disconnect between the pole/underground wires and the
panel? If not, the main breaker in the panel is also the main disconnect.


Mains = wire coming in from the power company.
Main disconnect = a disconnect outside the house.
(yes, I've seen these before.)
Main breaker = the breaker that shuts off power
to all the smaller breakers.

I do not call a breaker in a panel a "main
disconnect".

I wouldn't either, I would call it the service disconnect if it was
the first disconnecting means after the service point. (the place
where the utility's wires connect to yours)

Not pushing back, just curious...

Do you not call it a "main disconnect" based on some official terminology or
just based on your preference? The reason I ask is this:

If I DAGS for images of Main Disconnect or images of Service Disconnect,
I get a combination of images that use either of those terms, and even a
Main Service Disconnect thrown in every now and then.

Some images come from Home Inspection sites, some come from .gov sites,
etc. There doesn't seem to be a "standard".

The NEC refers to it as the "service disconnecting means" and that
commonly gets rounded off to service disconnect, main disconnect or
other things. As long as we understand what we are talking about it is
just semantics.

The main bonding jumper (the place where the neutral gets grounded)
must be in the same enclosure where the service disconnect resides.
Some AHJs have ruled that it can be anywhere in "service equipment"
and allow it in the meter can if the ground electrode conductor lands
there too. This is because most meter cans ground the neutral.

I am not sure how they justify it because 250.24(B) seems pretty
unambiguous

(B) Main Bonding Jumper. For a grounded system, an unspliced
main bonding jumper shall be used to connect the
equipment grounding conductor(s) and the service-disconnect
enclosure to the grounded conductor within the enclosure for
each service disconnect in accordance with 250.28.

The important thing is that the neutral does not get regrounded after
the place where the grounding electrode lands. There used to be an
exception for sub panels in another building with a grounding
electrode system but that went away during the Clinton administration.

On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 2:32:45 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 11:04:44 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 12:29:35 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 09:52:45 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 3/4/2016 9:39 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 7:00:14 AM UTC-5, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 3/3/2016 11:47 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 3 Mar 2016 21:40:14 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

I noticed a friends's Square D panel, the
neutral and ground (from the utility company
feed) are connected to the same bar. And less
than an inch apart.

Shouldn't the ground be connected to the
separate ground bar?

Should I move the ground wire?

No if this is the service disconnect enclosure where the ground
electrode conductor lands and the main disconnect resides they will be
on the same bus bar.


The question is about the circuit breaker panel
in the cellar. There is a main breaker, but I'd
not call it a main disconnect.


What would you call the main disconnect?

Is there another disconnect between the pole/underground wires and the
panel? If not, the main breaker in the panel is also the main disconnect.


Mains = wire coming in from the power company.
Main disconnect = a disconnect outside the house.
(yes, I've seen these before.)
Main breaker = the breaker that shuts off power
to all the smaller breakers.

I do not call a breaker in a panel a "main
disconnect".

I wouldn't either, I would call it the service disconnect if it was
the first disconnecting means after the service point. (the place
where the utility's wires connect to yours)

Not pushing back, just curious...

Do you not call it a "main disconnect" based on some official terminology or
just based on your preference? The reason I ask is this:

If I DAGS for images of Main Disconnect or images of Service Disconnect,
I get a combination of images that use either of those terms, and even a
Main Service Disconnect thrown in every now and then.

Some images come from Home Inspection sites, some come from .gov sites,
etc. There doesn't seem to be a "standard".

The NEC refers to it as the "service disconnecting means" and that
commonly gets rounded off to service disconnect, main disconnect or
other things. As long as we understand what we are talking about it is
just semantics.

The main bonding jumper (the place where the neutral gets grounded)
must be in the same enclosure where the service disconnect resides.
Some AHJs have ruled that it can be anywhere in "service equipment"
and allow it in the meter can if the ground electrode conductor lands
there too. This is because most meter cans ground the neutral.

I am not sure how they justify it because 250.24(B) seems pretty
unambiguous

(B) Main Bonding Jumper. For a grounded system, an unspliced
main bonding jumper shall be used to connect the
equipment grounding conductor(s) and the service-disconnect
enclosure to the grounded conductor within the enclosure for
each service disconnect in accordance with 250.28.

The important thing is that the neutral does not get regrounded after
the place where the grounding electrode lands. There used to be an
exception for sub panels in another building with a grounding
electrode system but that went away during the Clinton administration.

Thanks once again for sharing your expertise.

On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 1:32:45 PM UTC-6, wrote:
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 11:04:44 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 12:29:35 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 09:52:45 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 3/4/2016 9:39 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 7:00:14 AM UTC-5, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 3/3/2016 11:47 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 3 Mar 2016 21:40:14 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

I noticed a friends's Square D panel, the
neutral and ground (from the utility company
feed) are connected to the same bar. And less
than an inch apart.

Shouldn't the ground be connected to the
separate ground bar?

Should I move the ground wire?

No if this is the service disconnect enclosure where the ground
electrode conductor lands and the main disconnect resides they will be
on the same bus bar.


The question is about the circuit breaker panel
in the cellar. There is a main breaker, but I'd
not call it a main disconnect.


What would you call the main disconnect?

Is there another disconnect between the pole/underground wires and the
panel? If not, the main breaker in the panel is also the main disconnect.


Mains = wire coming in from the power company.
Main disconnect = a disconnect outside the house.
(yes, I've seen these before.)
Main breaker = the breaker that shuts off power
to all the smaller breakers.

I do not call a breaker in a panel a "main
disconnect".

I wouldn't either, I would call it the service disconnect if it was
the first disconnecting means after the service point. (the place
where the utility's wires connect to yours)

Not pushing back, just curious...

Do you not call it a "main disconnect" based on some official terminology or
just based on your preference? The reason I ask is this:

If I DAGS for images of Main Disconnect or images of Service Disconnect,
I get a combination of images that use either of those terms, and even a
Main Service Disconnect thrown in every now and then.

Some images come from Home Inspection sites, some come from .gov sites,
etc. There doesn't seem to be a "standard".

The NEC refers to it as the "service disconnecting means" and that
commonly gets rounded off to service disconnect, main disconnect or
other things. As long as we understand what we are talking about it is
just semantics.

The main bonding jumper (the place where the neutral gets grounded)
must be in the same enclosure where the service disconnect resides.
Some AHJs have ruled that it can be anywhere in "service equipment"
and allow it in the meter can if the ground electrode conductor lands
there too. This is because most meter cans ground the neutral.

I am not sure how they justify it because 250.24(B) seems pretty
unambiguous

(B) Main Bonding Jumper. For a grounded system, an unspliced
main bonding jumper shall be used to connect the
equipment grounding conductor(s) and the service-disconnect
enclosure to the grounded conductor within the enclosure for
each service disconnect in accordance with 250.28.

The important thing is that the neutral does not get regrounded after
the place where the grounding electrode lands. There used to be an
exception for sub panels in another building with a grounding
electrode system but that went away during the Clinton administration.

I haven't looked anything up but the bonding screw for the ground bar. Is it only screwed into the main breaker panel enclosure or is it also required for the sub panels? O_o

[8~{} Uncle Panel Monster

On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 12:03:00 -0800 (PST), Uncle Monster
wrote:

On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 1:32:45 PM UTC-6, wrote:
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 11:04:44 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 12:29:35 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 09:52:45 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 3/4/2016 9:39 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 7:00:14 AM UTC-5, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 3/3/2016 11:47 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 3 Mar 2016 21:40:14 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

I noticed a friends's Square D panel, the
neutral and ground (from the utility company
feed) are connected to the same bar. And less
than an inch apart.

Shouldn't the ground be connected to the
separate ground bar?

Should I move the ground wire?

No if this is the service disconnect enclosure where the ground
electrode conductor lands and the main disconnect resides they will be
on the same bus bar.


The question is about the circuit breaker panel
in the cellar. There is a main breaker, but I'd
not call it a main disconnect.


What would you call the main disconnect?

Is there another disconnect between the pole/underground wires and the
panel? If not, the main breaker in the panel is also the main disconnect.


Mains = wire coming in from the power company.
Main disconnect = a disconnect outside the house.
(yes, I've seen these before.)
Main breaker = the breaker that shuts off power
to all the smaller breakers.

I do not call a breaker in a panel a "main
disconnect".

I wouldn't either, I would call it the service disconnect if it was
the first disconnecting means after the service point. (the place
where the utility's wires connect to yours)

Not pushing back, just curious...

Do you not call it a "main disconnect" based on some official terminology or
just based on your preference? The reason I ask is this:

If I DAGS for images of Main Disconnect or images of Service Disconnect,
I get a combination of images that use either of those terms, and even a
Main Service Disconnect thrown in every now and then.

Some images come from Home Inspection sites, some come from .gov sites,
etc. There doesn't seem to be a "standard".

The NEC refers to it as the "service disconnecting means" and that
commonly gets rounded off to service disconnect, main disconnect or
other things. As long as we understand what we are talking about it is
just semantics.

The main bonding jumper (the place where the neutral gets grounded)
must be in the same enclosure where the service disconnect resides.
Some AHJs have ruled that it can be anywhere in "service equipment"
and allow it in the meter can if the ground electrode conductor lands
there too. This is because most meter cans ground the neutral.

I am not sure how they justify it because 250.24(B) seems pretty
unambiguous

(B) Main Bonding Jumper. For a grounded system, an unspliced
main bonding jumper shall be used to connect the
equipment grounding conductor(s) and the service-disconnect
enclosure to the grounded conductor within the enclosure for
each service disconnect in accordance with 250.28.

The important thing is that the neutral does not get regrounded after
the place where the grounding electrode lands. There used to be an
exception for sub panels in another building with a grounding
electrode system but that went away during the Clinton administration.

I haven't looked anything up but the bonding screw for the ground bar. Is it only screwed into the main breaker panel enclosure or is it also required for the sub panels? O_o

[8~{} Uncle Panel Monster

You only use that screw in the service disconnect enclosure. In a sub
panel you install the supplemental grounding bus and bring the
equipment grounding conductor to that (4 wire feeder)
The neutral bus remains isolated.

On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 07:00:09 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 3/3/2016 11:47 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 3 Mar 2016 21:40:14 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

I noticed a friends's Square D panel, the
neutral and ground (from the utility company
feed) are connected to the same bar. And less
than an inch apart.

Shouldn't the ground be connected to the
separate ground bar?

Should I move the ground wire?

No if this is the service disconnect enclosure where the ground
electrode conductor lands and the main disconnect resides they will be
on the same bus bar.


The question is about the circuit breaker panel
in the cellar. There is a main breaker, but I'd
not call it a main disconnect.
In better than 90% of installations that main breaker IS the main
disconnect, and as far as the code is concerned unless it is a
sub-panel the original explanation is correct. Neutral is bonded to
ground.

Be a lot safer to leave it alone than to have micky playing around
with it anyway.

On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 09:52:45 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 3/4/2016 9:39 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 7:00:14 AM UTC-5, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 3/3/2016 11:47 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 3 Mar 2016 21:40:14 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

I noticed a friends's Square D panel, the
neutral and ground (from the utility company
feed) are connected to the same bar. And less
than an inch apart.

Shouldn't the ground be connected to the
separate ground bar?

Should I move the ground wire?

No if this is the service disconnect enclosure where the ground
electrode conductor lands and the main disconnect resides they will be
on the same bus bar.


The question is about the circuit breaker panel
in the cellar. There is a main breaker, but I'd
not call it a main disconnect.


What would you call the main disconnect?

Is there another disconnect between the pole/underground wires and the
panel? If not, the main breaker in the panel is also the main disconnect.


Mains = wire coming in from the power company.
Main disconnect = a disconnect outside the house.
(yes, I've seen these before.)
Main breaker = the breaker that shuts off power
to all the smaller breakers.

I do not call a breaker in a panel a "main
disconnect".
Then you are not correct in your terminalogy.
The main breaker in the panel IS the main disconnect, except in some
"redneck bungalow subdivisions" where there is a switch on the pole to
disconnect the trailer from the grid .

On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 5:33:48 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 07:00:09 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 3/3/2016 11:47 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 3 Mar 2016 21:40:14 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

I noticed a friends's Square D panel, the
neutral and ground (from the utility company
feed) are connected to the same bar. And less
than an inch apart.

Shouldn't the ground be connected to the
separate ground bar?

Should I move the ground wire?

No if this is the service disconnect enclosure where the ground
electrode conductor lands and the main disconnect resides they will be
on the same bus bar.


The question is about the circuit breaker panel
in the cellar. There is a main breaker, but I'd
not call it a main disconnect.
In better than 90% of installations that main breaker IS the main
disconnect, and as far as the code is concerned unless it is a
sub-panel the original explanation is correct. Neutral is bonded to
ground.

Be a lot safer to leave it alone than to have micky playing around
with it anyway.

The question wasn't posed by Micky, it was posed by Stormin.

On Fri, 04 Mar 2016 17:33:06 -0500, wrote:

On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 07:00:09 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 3/3/2016 11:47 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 3 Mar 2016 21:40:14 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

I noticed a friends's Square D panel, the
neutral and ground (from the utility company
feed) are connected to the same bar. And less
than an inch apart.

Shouldn't the ground be connected to the
separate ground bar?

Should I move the ground wire?

No if this is the service disconnect enclosure where the ground
electrode conductor lands and the main disconnect resides they will be
on the same bus bar.


The question is about the circuit breaker panel
in the cellar. There is a main breaker, but I'd
not call it a main disconnect.
In better than 90% of installations that main breaker IS the main
disconnect, and as far as the code is concerned unless it is a
sub-panel the original explanation is correct. Neutral is bonded to
ground.

Be a lot safer to leave it alone than to have micky playing around
with it anyway.

Hey, I never said that. I said I made the earth move for my
girlfriend, when we were...you know; not for a breaker box.

On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 14:40:09 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 5:33:48 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 07:00:09 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 3/3/2016 11:47 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 3 Mar 2016 21:40:14 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

I noticed a friends's Square D panel, the
neutral and ground (from the utility company
feed) are connected to the same bar. And less
than an inch apart.

Shouldn't the ground be connected to the
separate ground bar?

Should I move the ground wire?

No if this is the service disconnect enclosure where the ground
electrode conductor lands and the main disconnect resides they will be
on the same bus bar.


The question is about the circuit breaker panel
in the cellar. There is a main breaker, but I'd
not call it a main disconnect.
In better than 90% of installations that main breaker IS the main
disconnect, and as far as the code is concerned unless it is a
sub-panel the original explanation is correct. Neutral is bonded to
ground.

Be a lot safer to leave it alone than to have micky playing around
with it anyway.

The question wasn't posed by Micky, it was posed by Stormin.

Thanks. I answered before I saw this.

On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 5:39:39 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 09:52:45 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 3/4/2016 9:39 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 7:00:14 AM UTC-5, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 3/3/2016 11:47 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 3 Mar 2016 21:40:14 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

I noticed a friends's Square D panel, the
neutral and ground (from the utility company
feed) are connected to the same bar. And less
than an inch apart.

Shouldn't the ground be connected to the
separate ground bar?

Should I move the ground wire?

No if this is the service disconnect enclosure where the ground
electrode conductor lands and the main disconnect resides they will be
on the same bus bar.


The question is about the circuit breaker panel
in the cellar. There is a main breaker, but I'd
not call it a main disconnect.


What would you call the main disconnect?

Is there another disconnect between the pole/underground wires and the
panel? If not, the main breaker in the panel is also the main disconnect.


Mains = wire coming in from the power company.
Main disconnect = a disconnect outside the house.
(yes, I've seen these before.)
Main breaker = the breaker that shuts off power
to all the smaller breakers.

I do not call a breaker in a panel a "main
disconnect".
Then you are not correct in your terminalogy.
The main breaker in the panel IS the main disconnect, except in some
"redneck bungalow subdivisions" where there is a switch on the pole to
disconnect the trailer from the grid .

Please replace "IS" with "may be".

On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 2:08:48 PM UTC-6, wrote:
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 12:03:00 -0800 (PST), Uncle Monster
wrote:

On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 1:32:45 PM UTC-6, wrote:
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 11:04:44 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 12:29:35 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 09:52:45 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 3/4/2016 9:39 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 7:00:14 AM UTC-5, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 3/3/2016 11:47 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 3 Mar 2016 21:40:14 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

I noticed a friends's Square D panel, the
neutral and ground (from the utility company
feed) are connected to the same bar. And less
than an inch apart.

Shouldn't the ground be connected to the
separate ground bar?

Should I move the ground wire?

No if this is the service disconnect enclosure where the ground
electrode conductor lands and the main disconnect resides they will be
on the same bus bar.


The question is about the circuit breaker panel
in the cellar. There is a main breaker, but I'd
not call it a main disconnect.


What would you call the main disconnect?

Is there another disconnect between the pole/underground wires and the
panel? If not, the main breaker in the panel is also the main disconnect.


Mains = wire coming in from the power company.
Main disconnect = a disconnect outside the house.
(yes, I've seen these before.)
Main breaker = the breaker that shuts off power
to all the smaller breakers.

I do not call a breaker in a panel a "main
disconnect".

I wouldn't either, I would call it the service disconnect if it was
the first disconnecting means after the service point. (the place
where the utility's wires connect to yours)

Not pushing back, just curious...

Do you not call it a "main disconnect" based on some official terminology or
just based on your preference? The reason I ask is this:

If I DAGS for images of Main Disconnect or images of Service Disconnect,
I get a combination of images that use either of those terms, and even a
Main Service Disconnect thrown in every now and then.

Some images come from Home Inspection sites, some come from .gov sites,
etc. There doesn't seem to be a "standard".

The NEC refers to it as the "service disconnecting means" and that
commonly gets rounded off to service disconnect, main disconnect or
other things. As long as we understand what we are talking about it is
just semantics.

The main bonding jumper (the place where the neutral gets grounded)
must be in the same enclosure where the service disconnect resides.
Some AHJs have ruled that it can be anywhere in "service equipment"
and allow it in the meter can if the ground electrode conductor lands
there too. This is because most meter cans ground the neutral.

I am not sure how they justify it because 250.24(B) seems pretty
unambiguous

(B) Main Bonding Jumper. For a grounded system, an unspliced
main bonding jumper shall be used to connect the
equipment grounding conductor(s) and the service-disconnect
enclosure to the grounded conductor within the enclosure for
each service disconnect in accordance with 250.28.

The important thing is that the neutral does not get regrounded after
the place where the grounding electrode lands. There used to be an
exception for sub panels in another building with a grounding
electrode system but that went away during the Clinton administration.

I haven't looked anything up but the bonding screw for the ground bar. Is it only screwed into the main breaker panel enclosure or is it also required for the sub panels? O_o

[8~{} Uncle Panel Monster

You only use that screw in the service disconnect enclosure. In a sub
panel you install the supplemental grounding bus and bring the
equipment grounding conductor to that (4 wire feeder)
The neutral bus remains isolated.

Perhaps I phrased it incorrectly. Does the sub panel can/housing have to grounded? I may have the wrong vision in my head but I think I imagined that the ground bar was in an insulated holder like the neutral bar but now I remember the grounding bar being attached directly to the can/housing. Drain bamage, not enough sleep. Sometimes I can't spell kat. o_O

[8~{} Uncle Confused Monster

On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 14:40:09 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 5:33:48 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 07:00:09 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 3/3/2016 11:47 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 3 Mar 2016 21:40:14 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

I noticed a friends's Square D panel, the
neutral and ground (from the utility company
feed) are connected to the same bar. And less
than an inch apart.

Shouldn't the ground be connected to the
separate ground bar?

Should I move the ground wire?

No if this is the service disconnect enclosure where the ground
electrode conductor lands and the main disconnect resides they will be
on the same bus bar.


The question is about the circuit breaker panel
in the cellar. There is a main breaker, but I'd
not call it a main disconnect.
In better than 90% of installations that main breaker IS the main
disconnect, and as far as the code is concerned unless it is a
sub-panel the original explanation is correct. Neutral is bonded to
ground.

Be a lot safer to leave it alone than to have micky playing around
with it anyway.

The question wasn't posed by Micky, it was posed by Stormin.
And that doesn't improve the odds.

On Fri, 04 Mar 2016 17:47:31 -0500, Micky
wrote:

On Fri, 04 Mar 2016 17:33:06 -0500, wrote:

On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 07:00:09 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 3/3/2016 11:47 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 3 Mar 2016 21:40:14 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

I noticed a friends's Square D panel, the
neutral and ground (from the utility company
feed) are connected to the same bar. And less
than an inch apart.

Shouldn't the ground be connected to the
separate ground bar?

Should I move the ground wire?

No if this is the service disconnect enclosure where the ground
electrode conductor lands and the main disconnect resides they will be
on the same bus bar.


The question is about the circuit breaker panel
in the cellar. There is a main breaker, but I'd
not call it a main disconnect.
In better than 90% of installations that main breaker IS the main
disconnect, and as far as the code is concerned unless it is a
sub-panel the original explanation is correct. Neutral is bonded to
ground.

Be a lot safer to leave it alone than to have micky playing around
with it anyway.

Hey, I never said that. I said I made the earth move for my
girlfriend, when we were...you know; not for a breaker box.
Sorry about that.

On Fri, 04 Mar 2016 17:48:55 -0500, Micky
wrote:

On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 14:40:09 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 5:33:48 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 07:00:09 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 3/3/2016 11:47 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 3 Mar 2016 21:40:14 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

I noticed a friends's Square D panel, the
neutral and ground (from the utility company
feed) are connected to the same bar. And less
than an inch apart.

Shouldn't the ground be connected to the
separate ground bar?

Should I move the ground wire?

No if this is the service disconnect enclosure where the ground
electrode conductor lands and the main disconnect resides they will be
on the same bus bar.


The question is about the circuit breaker panel
in the cellar. There is a main breaker, but I'd
not call it a main disconnect.
In better than 90% of installations that main breaker IS the main
disconnect, and as far as the code is concerned unless it is a
sub-panel the original explanation is correct. Neutral is bonded to
ground.

Be a lot safer to leave it alone than to have micky playing around
with it anyway.

The question wasn't posed by Micky, it was posed by Stormin.

Thanks. I answered before I saw this.
And it's more scary knowing that!!

On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 14:56:02 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 5:39:39 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 09:52:45 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 3/4/2016 9:39 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 7:00:14 AM UTC-5, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 3/3/2016 11:47 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 3 Mar 2016 21:40:14 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

I noticed a friends's Square D panel, the
neutral and ground (from the utility company
feed) are connected to the same bar. And less
than an inch apart.

Shouldn't the ground be connected to the
separate ground bar?

Should I move the ground wire?

No if this is the service disconnect enclosure where the ground
electrode conductor lands and the main disconnect resides they will be
on the same bus bar.


The question is about the circuit breaker panel
in the cellar. There is a main breaker, but I'd
not call it a main disconnect.


What would you call the main disconnect?

Is there another disconnect between the pole/underground wires and the
panel? If not, the main breaker in the panel is also the main disconnect.


Mains = wire coming in from the power company.
Main disconnect = a disconnect outside the house.
(yes, I've seen these before.)
Main breaker = the breaker that shuts off power
to all the smaller breakers.

I do not call a breaker in a panel a "main
disconnect".
Then you are not correct in your terminalogy.
The main breaker in the panel IS the main disconnect, except in some
"redneck bungalow subdivisions" where there is a switch on the pole to
disconnect the trailer from the grid .

Please replace "IS" with "may be".
No I won't. But I will change it to the main breaker in the panel is
most likely the main disconnect. execept in some rare situations where
there is a switch on the pole to disconnect the panel from the grid.
The most likely exception would be where "central metering" is used.

On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 16:56:37 -0800 (PST), Uncle Monster
wrote:

On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 2:08:48 PM UTC-6, wrote:
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 12:03:00 -0800 (PST), Uncle Monster
wrote:

On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 1:32:45 PM UTC-6, wrote:
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 11:04:44 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 12:29:35 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 09:52:45 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 3/4/2016 9:39 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 7:00:14 AM UTC-5, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 3/3/2016 11:47 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 3 Mar 2016 21:40:14 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

I noticed a friends's Square D panel, the
neutral and ground (from the utility company
feed) are connected to the same bar. And less
than an inch apart.

Shouldn't the ground be connected to the
separate ground bar?

Should I move the ground wire?

No if this is the service disconnect enclosure where the ground
electrode conductor lands and the main disconnect resides they will be
on the same bus bar.


The question is about the circuit breaker panel
in the cellar. There is a main breaker, but I'd
not call it a main disconnect.


What would you call the main disconnect?

Is there another disconnect between the pole/underground wires and the
panel? If not, the main breaker in the panel is also the main disconnect.


Mains = wire coming in from the power company.
Main disconnect = a disconnect outside the house.
(yes, I've seen these before.)
Main breaker = the breaker that shuts off power
to all the smaller breakers.

I do not call a breaker in a panel a "main
disconnect".

I wouldn't either, I would call it the service disconnect if it was
the first disconnecting means after the service point. (the place
where the utility's wires connect to yours)

Not pushing back, just curious...

Do you not call it a "main disconnect" based on some official terminology or
just based on your preference? The reason I ask is this:

If I DAGS for images of Main Disconnect or images of Service Disconnect,
I get a combination of images that use either of those terms, and even a
Main Service Disconnect thrown in every now and then.

Some images come from Home Inspection sites, some come from .gov sites,
etc. There doesn't seem to be a "standard".

The NEC refers to it as the "service disconnecting means" and that
commonly gets rounded off to service disconnect, main disconnect or
other things. As long as we understand what we are talking about it is
just semantics.

The main bonding jumper (the place where the neutral gets grounded)
must be in the same enclosure where the service disconnect resides.
Some AHJs have ruled that it can be anywhere in "service equipment"
and allow it in the meter can if the ground electrode conductor lands
there too. This is because most meter cans ground the neutral.

I am not sure how they justify it because 250.24(B) seems pretty
unambiguous

(B) Main Bonding Jumper. For a grounded system, an unspliced
main bonding jumper shall be used to connect the
equipment grounding conductor(s) and the service-disconnect
enclosure to the grounded conductor within the enclosure for
each service disconnect in accordance with 250.28.

The important thing is that the neutral does not get regrounded after
the place where the grounding electrode lands. There used to be an
exception for sub panels in another building with a grounding
electrode system but that went away during the Clinton administration.

I haven't looked anything up but the bonding screw for the ground bar. Is it only screwed into the main breaker panel enclosure or is it also required for the sub panels? O_o

[8~{} Uncle Panel Monster

You only use that screw in the service disconnect enclosure. In a sub
panel you install the supplemental grounding bus and bring the
equipment grounding conductor to that (4 wire feeder)
The neutral bus remains isolated.

Perhaps I phrased it incorrectly. Does the sub panel can/housing have to grounded? I may have the wrong vision in my head but I think I imagined that the ground bar was in an insulated holder like the neutral bar but now I remember the grounding bar being attached directly to the can/housing. Drain bamage, not enough sleep. Sometimes I can't spell kat. o_O

[8~{} Uncle Confused Monster
The can/housing of ALL panels needs to be grounded, as does every
switch and outlet box, as well as all utility boxes. ONLY in the
"main/service disconnect" may the neutral and ground be directly
connected. The neutral bonding screw or jumper connects the neutral
buss to the case ground.

"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message ...

I noticed a friends's Square D panel, the
neutral and ground (from the utility company
feed) are connected to the same bar. And less
than an inch apart.

ABOVE: That is correct "HOWEVER"
once you start to distribute power to receptacles lights ETC.
The ground most not at any time carry any current, your Neutral
is tied to ground block "but" it will be isolated from the ground after
that point and it most remain that way, and it will carry current from that
point.
Also remember what I said the ground does not carry any current,
however that is only "AFTER" distribution panel. Coming into distribution
panel yes at the time could become hot, depend where is grounded and on
how many places is grounded. "NEVER disconnect ground with power being on,
on incoming line to the distribution panel, because panel itself can become
hot.

Shouldn't the ground be connected to the
separate ground bar?

Should I move the ground wire?

--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 8:39:57 PM UTC-6, wrote:
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 16:56:37 -0800 (PST), Uncle Monster
wrote:

On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 2:08:48 PM UTC-6, wrote:
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 12:03:00 -0800 (PST), Uncle Monster
wrote:

On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 1:32:45 PM UTC-6, wrote:
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 11:04:44 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 12:29:35 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 09:52:45 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 3/4/2016 9:39 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 7:00:14 AM UTC-5, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 3/3/2016 11:47 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 3 Mar 2016 21:40:14 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

I noticed a friends's Square D panel, the
neutral and ground (from the utility company
feed) are connected to the same bar. And less
than an inch apart.

Shouldn't the ground be connected to the
separate ground bar?

Should I move the ground wire?

No if this is the service disconnect enclosure where the ground
electrode conductor lands and the main disconnect resides they will be
on the same bus bar.


The question is about the circuit breaker panel
in the cellar. There is a main breaker, but I'd
not call it a main disconnect.


What would you call the main disconnect?

Is there another disconnect between the pole/underground wires and the
panel? If not, the main breaker in the panel is also the main disconnect.


Mains = wire coming in from the power company.
Main disconnect = a disconnect outside the house.
(yes, I've seen these before.)
Main breaker = the breaker that shuts off power
to all the smaller breakers.

I do not call a breaker in a panel a "main
disconnect".

I wouldn't either, I would call it the service disconnect if it was
the first disconnecting means after the service point. (the place
where the utility's wires connect to yours)

Not pushing back, just curious...

Do you not call it a "main disconnect" based on some official terminology or
just based on your preference? The reason I ask is this:

If I DAGS for images of Main Disconnect or images of Service Disconnect,
I get a combination of images that use either of those terms, and even a
Main Service Disconnect thrown in every now and then.

Some images come from Home Inspection sites, some come from .gov sites,
etc. There doesn't seem to be a "standard".

The NEC refers to it as the "service disconnecting means" and that
commonly gets rounded off to service disconnect, main disconnect or
other things. As long as we understand what we are talking about it is
just semantics.

The main bonding jumper (the place where the neutral gets grounded)
must be in the same enclosure where the service disconnect resides.
Some AHJs have ruled that it can be anywhere in "service equipment"
and allow it in the meter can if the ground electrode conductor lands
there too. This is because most meter cans ground the neutral.

I am not sure how they justify it because 250.24(B) seems pretty
unambiguous

(B) Main Bonding Jumper. For a grounded system, an unspliced
main bonding jumper shall be used to connect the
equipment grounding conductor(s) and the service-disconnect
enclosure to the grounded conductor within the enclosure for
each service disconnect in accordance with 250.28.

The important thing is that the neutral does not get regrounded after
the place where the grounding electrode lands. There used to be an
exception for sub panels in another building with a grounding
electrode system but that went away during the Clinton administration.

I haven't looked anything up but the bonding screw for the ground bar.. Is it only screwed into the main breaker panel enclosure or is it also required for the sub panels? O_o

[8~{} Uncle Panel Monster

You only use that screw in the service disconnect enclosure. In a sub
panel you install the supplemental grounding bus and bring the
equipment grounding conductor to that (4 wire feeder)
The neutral bus remains isolated.

Perhaps I phrased it incorrectly. Does the sub panel can/housing have to grounded? I may have the wrong vision in my head but I think I imagined that the ground bar was in an insulated holder like the neutral bar but now I remember the grounding bar being attached directly to the can/housing. Drain bamage, not enough sleep. Sometimes I can't spell kat. o_O

[8~{} Uncle Confused Monster
The can/housing of ALL panels needs to be grounded, as does every
switch and outlet box, as well as all utility boxes. ONLY in the
"main/service disconnect" may the neutral and ground be directly
connected. The neutral bonding screw or jumper connects the neutral
buss to the case ground.

That's what I got confused. I had a rough night and didn't sleep well because of the crud I'm still fighting. I coughed so hard, I almost passed out. I'd always wondered why manufacturers didn't mount the ground bar to the can when they installed the buss bar assembly but I've installed ground bars in different places inside the can depending on how I was wiring the panel. Sometimes I installed a ground bar on either side to make for a neater wiring job. Some panels have a neutral bar on either side. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Bar Monster

On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 19:14:46 -0800 (PST), Uncle Monster
wrote:

On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 8:39:57 PM UTC-6, wrote:
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 16:56:37 -0800 (PST), Uncle Monster
wrote:

On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 2:08:48 PM UTC-6, wrote:
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 12:03:00 -0800 (PST), Uncle Monster
wrote:

On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 1:32:45 PM UTC-6, wrote:
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 11:04:44 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 12:29:35 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 09:52:45 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 3/4/2016 9:39 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 7:00:14 AM UTC-5, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 3/3/2016 11:47 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 3 Mar 2016 21:40:14 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

I noticed a friends's Square D panel, the
neutral and ground (from the utility company
feed) are connected to the same bar. And less
than an inch apart.

Shouldn't the ground be connected to the
separate ground bar?

Should I move the ground wire?

No if this is the service disconnect enclosure where the ground
electrode conductor lands and the main disconnect resides they will be
on the same bus bar.


The question is about the circuit breaker panel
in the cellar. There is a main breaker, but I'd
not call it a main disconnect.


What would you call the main disconnect?

Is there another disconnect between the pole/underground wires and the
panel? If not, the main breaker in the panel is also the main disconnect.


Mains = wire coming in from the power company.
Main disconnect = a disconnect outside the house.
(yes, I've seen these before.)
Main breaker = the breaker that shuts off power
to all the smaller breakers.

I do not call a breaker in a panel a "main
disconnect".

I wouldn't either, I would call it the service disconnect if it was
the first disconnecting means after the service point. (the place
where the utility's wires connect to yours)

Not pushing back, just curious...

Do you not call it a "main disconnect" based on some official terminology or
just based on your preference? The reason I ask is this:

If I DAGS for images of Main Disconnect or images of Service Disconnect,
I get a combination of images that use either of those terms, and even a
Main Service Disconnect thrown in every now and then.

Some images come from Home Inspection sites, some come from .gov sites,
etc. There doesn't seem to be a "standard".

The NEC refers to it as the "service disconnecting means" and that
commonly gets rounded off to service disconnect, main disconnect or
other things. As long as we understand what we are talking about it is
just semantics.

The main bonding jumper (the place where the neutral gets grounded)
must be in the same enclosure where the service disconnect resides.
Some AHJs have ruled that it can be anywhere in "service equipment"
and allow it in the meter can if the ground electrode conductor lands
there too. This is because most meter cans ground the neutral.

I am not sure how they justify it because 250.24(B) seems pretty
unambiguous

(B) Main Bonding Jumper. For a grounded system, an unspliced
main bonding jumper shall be used to connect the
equipment grounding conductor(s) and the service-disconnect
enclosure to the grounded conductor within the enclosure for
each service disconnect in accordance with 250.28.

The important thing is that the neutral does not get regrounded after
the place where the grounding electrode lands. There used to be an
exception for sub panels in another building with a grounding
electrode system but that went away during the Clinton administration.

I haven't looked anything up but the bonding screw for the ground bar. Is it only screwed into the main breaker panel enclosure or is it also required for the sub panels? O_o

[8~{} Uncle Panel Monster

You only use that screw in the service disconnect enclosure. In a sub
panel you install the supplemental grounding bus and bring the
equipment grounding conductor to that (4 wire feeder)
The neutral bus remains isolated.

Perhaps I phrased it incorrectly. Does the sub panel can/housing have to grounded? I may have the wrong vision in my head but I think I imagined that the ground bar was in an insulated holder like the neutral bar but now I remember the grounding bar being attached directly to the can/housing. Drain bamage, not enough sleep. Sometimes I can't spell kat. o_O

[8~{} Uncle Confused Monster
The can/housing of ALL panels needs to be grounded, as does every
switch and outlet box, as well as all utility boxes. ONLY in the
"main/service disconnect" may the neutral and ground be directly
connected. The neutral bonding screw or jumper connects the neutral
buss to the case ground.

That's what I got confused. I had a rough night and didn't sleep well because of the crud I'm still fighting. I coughed so hard, I almost passed out. I'd always wondered why manufacturers didn't mount the ground bar to the can when they installed the buss bar assembly but I've installed ground bars in different places inside the can depending on how I was wiring the panel. Sometimes I installed a ground bar on either side to make for a neater wiring job. Some panels have a neutral bar on either side. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Bar Monster
My square D has split neutral and about 6 ground blocks - makes it a
real treat to wire.

On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 9:36:05 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 14:56:02 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 5:39:39 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 09:52:45 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 3/4/2016 9:39 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 7:00:14 AM UTC-5, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 3/3/2016 11:47 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 3 Mar 2016 21:40:14 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

I noticed a friends's Square D panel, the
neutral and ground (from the utility company
feed) are connected to the same bar. And less
than an inch apart.

Shouldn't the ground be connected to the
separate ground bar?

Should I move the ground wire?

No if this is the service disconnect enclosure where the ground
electrode conductor lands and the main disconnect resides they will be
on the same bus bar.


The question is about the circuit breaker panel
in the cellar. There is a main breaker, but I'd
not call it a main disconnect.


What would you call the main disconnect?

Is there another disconnect between the pole/underground wires and the
panel? If not, the main breaker in the panel is also the main disconnect.


Mains = wire coming in from the power company.
Main disconnect = a disconnect outside the house.
(yes, I've seen these before.)
Main breaker = the breaker that shuts off power
to all the smaller breakers.

I do not call a breaker in a panel a "main
disconnect".
Then you are not correct in your terminalogy.
The main breaker in the panel IS the main disconnect, except in some
"redneck bungalow subdivisions" where there is a switch on the pole to
disconnect the trailer from the grid .

Please replace "IS" with "may be".
No I won't. But I will change it to the main breaker in the panel is
most likely the main disconnect.

"Most likely" is just a stronger version of "may be", so I'll accept
that.

execept in some rare situations where
there is a switch on the pole to disconnect the panel from the grid.

Please change "execept" (sic) to "For example".

"Except" implies a singular instance, while "for example" indicates that
there is more than one case that differs from the norm.

There could be a service disconnect external to a distribution panel
and then a "main breaker" in the distribution panel itself.

The most likely exception would be where "central metering" is used.

See, there you go! :-) "most likely exception" leaves room for more than
one exception.

On 3/4/2016 9:39 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 16:56:37 -0800 (PST), Uncle Monster
Shouldn't the ground be connected to the
separate ground bar?

Should I move the ground wire?


Perhaps I phrased it incorrectly. Does the sub panel can/housing have to grounded? I may have the wrong vision in my head but I think I imagined that the ground bar was in an insulated holder like the neutral bar but now I remember the grounding bar being attached directly to the can/housing. Drain bamage, not enough sleep. Sometimes I can't spell kat. o_O

[8~{} Uncle Confused Monster
The can/housing of ALL panels needs to be grounded, as does every
switch and outlet box, as well as all utility boxes. ONLY in the
"main/service disconnect" may the neutral and ground be directly
connected. The neutral bonding screw or jumper connects the neutral
buss to the case ground.


Anyone wish to answer the OP's OQ?

--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On 3/4/2016 9:41 PM, Tony944 wrote:


"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message ...

I noticed a friends's Square D panel, the
neutral and ground (from the utility company
feed) are connected to the same bar. And less
than an inch apart.

ABOVE: That is correct "HOWEVER"
once you start to distribute power to receptacles lights ETC.
The ground most not at any time carry any current,[This is an old house. If the neutral
gets some corrosion, the current may go to the grounds. I'm also
concerned that the grounds go to two ground bars (some what like
the neutral bars) and the ground bars may be not connected to any
thing useful like the service entrance ground. At least one outlet
I checked shows open ground.]
your Neutral
is tied to ground block "but" it will be isolated from the ground after
that point and it most remain that way, and it will carry current from
that point.
Also remember what I said the ground does not carry any current,
however that is only "AFTER" distribution panel. Coming into distribution
panel yes at the time could become hot,[With the old house, I'd be
concerned there may be corrosion or open neutral at some point. And
I need to check a couple other outlets to see if every outlet in the
house has open ground.]
depend where is grounded and on
how many places is grounded. "NEVER disconnect ground with power being on,
on incoming line to the distribution panel, because panel itself can
become hot.

Shouldn't the ground be connected to the
separate ground bar?

Should I move the ground wire?


Center posted as a courtesy.

..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

Tony944

On Saturday, March 5, 2016 at 7:46:12 AM UTC-5, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 3/4/2016 9:39 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 16:56:37 -0800 (PST), Uncle Monster
Shouldn't the ground be connected to the
separate ground bar?

Should I move the ground wire?


Perhaps I phrased it incorrectly. Does the sub panel can/housing have to grounded? I may have the wrong vision in my head but I think I imagined that the ground bar was in an insulated holder like the neutral bar but now I remember the grounding bar being attached directly to the can/housing. Drain bamage, not enough sleep. Sometimes I can't spell kat. o_O

[8~{} Uncle Confused Monster
The can/housing of ALL panels needs to be grounded, as does every
switch and outlet box, as well as all utility boxes. ONLY in the
"main/service disconnect" may the neutral and ground be directly
connected. The neutral bonding screw or jumper connects the neutral
buss to the case ground.


Anyone wish to answer the OP's OQ?


It was answered within hours of your question, with a qualifying "if".
Since you never directly addressed the "if" it's on you.

I'll make it easy for you:

If this "if" is true, then you already have your answer:

"No if this is the service disconnect enclosure where the ground
electrode conductor lands and the main disconnect resides..."

If that "if" is not true, then you need to tell us more about
the installation. In other words, if the service disconnect is
not in the panel you are asking about, then where is it?

On Saturday, March 5, 2016 at 8:16:27 AM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Saturday, March 5, 2016 at 7:46:12 AM UTC-5, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 3/4/2016 9:39 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 16:56:37 -0800 (PST), Uncle Monster
Shouldn't the ground be connected to the
separate ground bar?

Should I move the ground wire?


Perhaps I phrased it incorrectly. Does the sub panel can/housing have to grounded? I may have the wrong vision in my head but I think I imagined that the ground bar was in an insulated holder like the neutral bar but now I remember the grounding bar being attached directly to the can/housing. Drain bamage, not enough sleep. Sometimes I can't spell kat. o_O

[8~{} Uncle Confused Monster
The can/housing of ALL panels needs to be grounded, as does every
switch and outlet box, as well as all utility boxes. ONLY in the
"main/service disconnect" may the neutral and ground be directly
connected. The neutral bonding screw or jumper connects the neutral
buss to the case ground.


Anyone wish to answer the OP's OQ?


It was answered within hours of your question, with a qualifying "if".
Since you never directly addressed the "if" it's on you.

I'll make it easy for you:

If this "if" is true, then you already have your answer:

"No if this is the service disconnect enclosure where the ground
electrode conductor lands and the main disconnect resides..."

If that "if" is not true, then you need to tell us more about
the installation. In other words, if the service disconnect is
not in the panel you are asking about, then where is it?

+1

IDK what he doesn't understand at this point with no additional input.

On Saturday, March 5, 2016 at 7:37:39 AM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 9:36:05 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 14:56:02 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 5:39:39 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 09:52:45 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 3/4/2016 9:39 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 7:00:14 AM UTC-5, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 3/3/2016 11:47 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 3 Mar 2016 21:40:14 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

I noticed a friends's Square D panel, the
neutral and ground (from the utility company
feed) are connected to the same bar. And less
than an inch apart.

Shouldn't the ground be connected to the
separate ground bar?

Should I move the ground wire?

No if this is the service disconnect enclosure where the ground
electrode conductor lands and the main disconnect resides they will be
on the same bus bar.


The question is about the circuit breaker panel
in the cellar. There is a main breaker, but I'd
not call it a main disconnect.


What would you call the main disconnect?

Is there another disconnect between the pole/underground wires and the
panel? If not, the main breaker in the panel is also the main disconnect.


Mains = wire coming in from the power company.
Main disconnect = a disconnect outside the house.
(yes, I've seen these before.)
Main breaker = the breaker that shuts off power
to all the smaller breakers.

I do not call a breaker in a panel a "main
disconnect".
Then you are not correct in your terminalogy.
The main breaker in the panel IS the main disconnect, except in some
"redneck bungalow subdivisions" where there is a switch on the pole to
disconnect the trailer from the grid .

Please replace "IS" with "may be".
No I won't. But I will change it to the main breaker in the panel is
most likely the main disconnect.

"Most likely" is just a stronger version of "may be", so I'll accept
that.

execept in some rare situations where
there is a switch on the pole to disconnect the panel from the grid.

Please change "execept" (sic) to "For example".

"Except" implies a singular instance, while "for example" indicates that
there is more than one case that differs from the norm.

There could be a service disconnect external to a distribution panel
and then a "main breaker" in the distribution panel itself.

The most likely exception would be where "central metering" is used.

See, there you go! :-) "most likely exception" leaves room for more than
one exception.

What he posted is still wrong, after he's had an opportunity to review
it several time. He keeps saying a service disconnect that
isn't the main breaker in the panel has to be on a pole, which it does not. But heh, he won't listen to me because I'm supposed to be a jerk.

On 3/5/2016 8:16 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Saturday, March 5, 2016 at 7:46:12 AM UTC-5, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Anyone wish to answer the OP's OQ?


It was answered within hours of your question, with a qualifying "if".
Since you never directly addressed the "if" it's on you.

I'll make it easy for you:

If this "if" is true, then you already have your answer:

"No if this is the service disconnect enclosure where the ground
electrode conductor lands and the main disconnect resides..."

If that "if" is not true, then you need to tell us more about
the installation. In other words, if the service disconnect is
not in the panel you are asking about, then where is it?


The power comes from the pole to a meter box,
which is outside the house. The power company
can remove the meter and put plastic boots over
the contacts, so I'd dare to say that is a
primitive service disconnect.

I've not been out that side of the house in
several years. don't know how the ground
bar in the ground connects in to the matter.
But, I do know the meter is outdoors.

There is some kind of cable from the meter box
to the circuit breaker panel. The question is
about the circuit breaker panel.

The ground wire in question comes in from outdoors
(in a plastic wrapped sheath with two hots and a
neutral). The ground wire presently connects to
the same metal bar, about an inch from where the
neutral connects.

It is possible (enough wire to work with) to move
the ground wire (from outdoors) to a screw connector
on one of the two ground screw bars.

I'm not a code reading electrician, and thank you
for making it easy for me.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On 3/5/2016 8:33 AM, trader_4 wrote:

IDK what he doesn't understand at this point with no additional input.


I kind of got that impression.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On Saturday, March 5, 2016 at 8:41:02 AM UTC-5, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 3/5/2016 8:16 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Saturday, March 5, 2016 at 7:46:12 AM UTC-5, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Anyone wish to answer the OP's OQ?


It was answered within hours of your question, with a qualifying "if".
Since you never directly addressed the "if" it's on you.

I'll make it easy for you:

If this "if" is true, then you already have your answer:

"No if this is the service disconnect enclosure where the ground
electrode conductor lands and the main disconnect resides..."

If that "if" is not true, then you need to tell us more about
the installation. In other words, if the service disconnect is
not in the panel you are asking about, then where is it?


The power comes from the pole to a meter box,
which is outside the house. The power company
can remove the meter and put plastic boots over
the contacts, so I'd dare to say that is a
primitive service disconnect.

You can dare to say it, but unless this code
has been updated since it was posted in 2002,
the meter is not considered a service disconnect
because it is not considered to be service equipment.

Please refer to the mention of "meter" in Part 1 -
General and 230.66 for more detail.

https://www.mikeholt.com/mojonewsarc...s~20020219.htm


I've not been out that side of the house in
several years. don't know how the ground
bar in the ground connects in to the matter.
But, I do know the meter is outdoors.

Please see my comment about this a bit later on...


There is some kind of cable from the meter box
to the circuit breaker panel. The question is
about the circuit breaker panel.

Yep, pretty sure we all knew that.


The ground wire in question comes in from outdoors
(in a plastic wrapped sheath with two hots and a
neutral). The ground wire presently connects to
the same metal bar, about an inch from where the
neutral connects.

It is possible (enough wire to work with) to move
the ground wire (from outdoors) to a screw connector
on one of the two ground screw bars.


You've stated that you "don't know how the ground
bar in the ground connects in to the matter".

I'll assume "matter" means "meter".

Until you know that and tell us, it would be
unconscionable for us to tell you what wires
can be moved without any qualification.

I'm not a code reading electrician,

Then perhaps you should find one, have him/her assess
the situation and let him/her make the determination
as to whether any wires should be moved.

As I said earlier, you have received an answer to your
question with a qualifying "if". No one can answer the
question with any more certainty unless you can address
the "if" in more detail.

and thank you for making it easy for me.

You are most welcome.

On Saturday, March 5, 2016 at 8:41:02 AM UTC-5, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 3/5/2016 8:16 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Saturday, March 5, 2016 at 7:46:12 AM UTC-5, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Anyone wish to answer the OP's OQ?


It was answered within hours of your question, with a qualifying "if".
Since you never directly addressed the "if" it's on you.

I'll make it easy for you:

If this "if" is true, then you already have your answer:

"No if this is the service disconnect enclosure where the ground
electrode conductor lands and the main disconnect resides..."

If that "if" is not true, then you need to tell us more about
the installation. In other words, if the service disconnect is
not in the panel you are asking about, then where is it?


The power comes from the pole to a meter box,
which is outside the house. The power company
can remove the meter and put plastic boots over
the contacts, so I'd dare to say that is a
primitive service disconnect.


It's not a service disconnect per code. Good reason too,
it's not meant to be an easy, accessible means for anyone
to disconnect the service.


I've not been out that side of the house in
several years. don't know how the ground
bar in the ground connects in to the matter.
But, I do know the meter is outdoors.

There is some kind of cable from the meter box
to the circuit breaker panel. The question is
about the circuit breaker panel.

The ground wire in question comes in from outdoors
(in a plastic wrapped sheath with two hots and a
neutral). The ground wire presently connects to
the same metal bar, about an inch from where the
neutral connects.


As previously explained, the ground and the neutral are supposed
to be connected together at the service disconnect. Exactly how
they are connected may vary depending on the panel. Did you pull
up the instructions for the specific panel?


It is possible (enough wire to work with) to move
the ground wire (from outdoors) to a screw connector
on one of the two ground screw bars.


Why do you think you need to move anything?


I'm not a code reading electrician, and thank you
for making it easy for me.

--
.
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
. www.lds.org
.
.