On Thursday, March 10, 2016 at 9:14:22 AM UTC-5, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Mon, 07 Mar 2016 14:48:12 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 6:38:12 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sun, 6 Mar 2016 12:20:17 -0500, "Ralph Mowery"
wrote:

Some of the code is way above ,but guess the government is trying to prevent
people from doing stupid things. They are regulating how hot the coffee can
be in restraunts now. Seems that a while aback someone got some hot coffee
at a drive through and spilled it on their selves and got burnt and sued and
won about 5 or 6 million dollars for that.

They were awarded a huge amount (2.68 million, i believe), but
McDonalds appealed and the payment was significantly reduced, with the
woman eventually recieving $640,000.

And there were extenuating circumstances too. The plaintiff showed that
McDonalds knew for a long time that their coffee was far hotter than
coffee at similar places, dangerously hot, etc and did nothing about it.
It was so hot that it melted the nylon the woman was wearing, as I recall.

It can't be more than boiling point. Most people boil the water for their coffee. There is no excuse for the woman being so stupid.


The correct brewing temp for coffee is ~200F. That's brewing temp,
not serving temp. Serving temp varies from place to place, but
IDK any place here that serves it anywhere close to boiling,
~160 - 170F seems to be a typical serving temp. McDonalds
was *serving* it at around 200, as I recall. And how was the woman
stupid? She bought the coffee at a McDonald;s drive-thru. It
accidentally spilled. If she's stupid for buying coffee at their
drive-thru, then McD is stupid for selling it at their drive-thru.
And it was shown that McD knew that it was exceptionally hot, the
woman did not.

On Thursday, March 10, 2016 at 9:21:20 AM UTC-5, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Thu, 10 Mar 2016 14:13:40 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Thursday, March 10, 2016 at 9:02:12 AM UTC-5, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Thu, 10 Mar 2016 13:33:46 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Thursday, March 10, 2016 at 6:54:16 AM UTC-5, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Sun, 06 Mar 2016 17:12:14 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 10:00:21 AM UTC-5, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Sun, 06 Mar 2016 07:25:01 -0000, Micky wrote:

On Sat, 05 Mar 2016 14:50:19 -0500, wrote:


Over here in the colonies we take that 240v and center tap the
transformer so both ungrounded legs are 120v above ground. That still
gives us the ability to use 240v equipment but most ends up being
120v. I suppose we can blame Thomas Edison for that. He started a fear
campaign against Nick Tesla over AC current, Edison wanted DC and he
said AC was more deadly, to the point of electrocuting an elephant
along with more than a few condemned prisoners ... all with AC.
When he lost the war, the deadly part still stuck and the belief was
that 120 would be safer, still leaving the option of having 240v
equipment.

I thought 240 was indeed more deadly than 120 and that more people
died of shocks, per capita, in the UK than here. How could 240 not
be more deadly than 120?

Isn't it the case that if either of them goes through your heart it can kill you? Anything over 80 volts or something like that is all the same.

The only difference is that much higher voltages can burn your skin, or jump across gaps where you least expect it. But that's kV.

--
Take notice: when this sign is under water, this road is impassable.

It's the current that kills. Not sure on the numbers, but maybe on
the order of 30ma and above can effect the heart rhythm. The human
body has some resistance, X. If you put 240V across that, you're going
to get 2x the current as you do with 120V. But.... That's really a
red herring the way the system works here. To get 240V you'd have to
be across both hot wires, which is extremely unlikely. Most common
is for you to connect between one hot wire and ground, like standing
in water, touching an appliance case, faucet, etc. In that case
you'd still only get 120V. Between each hot and ground you have 120V.
Not sure how it works over there.

My point was 30mA could be achieved just as easily with 120V. Making it higher than enough to kill you doesn't matter.


30ma can't be achieved just as easily with 120V as with 240V. The
human body has resistance, tap water has resistance, etc. Under the
same conditions where 30ma is going through you at 240V, you'd only
have about half that at 120V.

I disagree. The resistance isn't enough to get anything like as low as 30mA with either voltage. Why do you think circuit breakers manage to trip when you touch live and earth? They need 30mA to trip.

IDK what you're talking about now. For starters, circuit breakers
don't trip when you touch live and earth, unless it is a GFCI breaker,
which are the less common type and only required in certain applications.

Of course that's the type I'm talking about, hence me referring to 30mA, not 15A. In the UK, the whole house is protected by such things, why wouldn't it be? This is why I use fuses.


If you're using fuses, why are you talking about GFCI? Of all the
circuit breakers in the world, only a small fraction are GFCI.




Second, per Ohms law, the higher the voltage in a given circuit,
the higher the current. A human body, together with the rest of
the circuit that completes it, has some resistance value. With a
higher voltage, you will have higher current flowing, ergo it's
easier to get to your 30ma.

My point is both voltages will easily exceed 30mA.

As stated previously, it depends on the resistance of the entire
circuit, including human body. Will it exceed 30ma in most cases,
whether it's 120V or 240V, probably. But that doesn't change the
fact that more current will flow at 240V than at 120V. Where with
one you could have 30ma, with the other you could have 60ma and
the higher it is, the worse it is. Capiche?


If they didn't, those GFCI breakers would never trip. Killing you with 120mA is no worse than killing you with 60mA.

Why do you keep going back to GFCI all the time?



I just measured my resistance from hand to hand (the most likely path to get through the heart). 50kohm with wet hands, 500kohm with dry hands. At 120V, that's 2mA wet and 0.2mA dry. At 240V, that's 5mA wet and 0.5mA dry.. No wonder I've never stopped my heart. It's impossible. The body has way more resistance than I thought. And I was squeezing as hard as I could for a good contact.


Following that faulty logic, no one would ever be electrocuted by
120V, 240V, etc. There would be no need for GFCI. Yet it happens all
the time.

On Thu, 10 Mar 2016 14:43:11 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Thursday, March 10, 2016 at 9:14:22 AM UTC-5, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Mon, 07 Mar 2016 14:48:12 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 6:38:12 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sun, 6 Mar 2016 12:20:17 -0500, "Ralph Mowery"
wrote:

Some of the code is way above ,but guess the government is trying to prevent
people from doing stupid things. They are regulating how hot the coffee can
be in restraunts now. Seems that a while aback someone got some hot coffee
at a drive through and spilled it on their selves and got burnt and sued and
won about 5 or 6 million dollars for that.

They were awarded a huge amount (2.68 million, i believe), but
McDonalds appealed and the payment was significantly reduced, with the
woman eventually recieving $640,000.

And there were extenuating circumstances too. The plaintiff showed that
McDonalds knew for a long time that their coffee was far hotter than
coffee at similar places, dangerously hot, etc and did nothing about it.
It was so hot that it melted the nylon the woman was wearing, as I recall.

It can't be more than boiling point. Most people boil the water for their coffee. There is no excuse for the woman being so stupid.


The correct brewing temp for coffee is ~200F. That's brewing temp,
not serving temp. Serving temp varies from place to place, but
IDK any place here that serves it anywhere close to boiling,
~160 - 170F seems to be a typical serving temp. McDonalds
was *serving* it at around 200, as I recall.

So what, all are hot enough to burn you, which is why I don't understand peopledrinking hot coffe. I always have to wait about 10-15 minutes before I can drink it.

And how was the woman
stupid? She bought the coffee at a McDonald;s drive-thru. It
accidentally spilled. If she's stupid for buying coffee at their
drive-thru, then McD is stupid for selling it at their drive-thru.
And it was shown that McD knew that it was exceptionally hot, the
woman did not.

She picked up a cup of something and couldn't tell what temperature it was? She balanced it in her lap then spilt it. Coffee is hot, that's a simple fact known to anyone with half a brain. This ****wit must have thought she'd ordered pop or something. Is she retarded? What was she doing driving a car if she was that dopey? Fine her for frivolous allegations. Even better drown the lawyer who took her side. Even better drown all lawyers. Slowly. Take responsibility for your own actions and stop blaming other people like pathetic little 6 year olds. In the UK, that lawsuit would have failed immediately. But then again, UK intelligence is a lot higher. If you guys would stop protecting your dumbasses, your next generation might match the intelligence of the rest of the world and you'd no longer be the laughing stock of our planet.

--
Women are not served here. You have to bring your own.

On Thu, 10 Mar 2016 14:50:22 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Thursday, March 10, 2016 at 9:21:20 AM UTC-5, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Thu, 10 Mar 2016 14:13:40 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Thursday, March 10, 2016 at 9:02:12 AM UTC-5, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Thu, 10 Mar 2016 13:33:46 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Thursday, March 10, 2016 at 6:54:16 AM UTC-5, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Sun, 06 Mar 2016 17:12:14 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 10:00:21 AM UTC-5, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Sun, 06 Mar 2016 07:25:01 -0000, Micky wrote:

On Sat, 05 Mar 2016 14:50:19 -0500, wrote:


Over here in the colonies we take that 240v and center tap the
transformer so both ungrounded legs are 120v above ground. That still
gives us the ability to use 240v equipment but most ends up being
120v. I suppose we can blame Thomas Edison for that. He started a fear
campaign against Nick Tesla over AC current, Edison wanted DC and he
said AC was more deadly, to the point of electrocuting an elephant
along with more than a few condemned prisoners ... all with AC.
When he lost the war, the deadly part still stuck and the belief was
that 120 would be safer, still leaving the option of having 240v
equipment.

I thought 240 was indeed more deadly than 120 and that more people
died of shocks, per capita, in the UK than here. How could 240 not
be more deadly than 120?

Isn't it the case that if either of them goes through your heart it can kill you? Anything over 80 volts or something like that is all the same.

The only difference is that much higher voltages can burn your skin, or jump across gaps where you least expect it. But that's kV.

--
Take notice: when this sign is under water, this road is impassable.

It's the current that kills. Not sure on the numbers, but maybe on
the order of 30ma and above can effect the heart rhythm. The human
body has some resistance, X. If you put 240V across that, you're going
to get 2x the current as you do with 120V. But.... That's really a
red herring the way the system works here. To get 240V you'd have to
be across both hot wires, which is extremely unlikely. Most common
is for you to connect between one hot wire and ground, like standing
in water, touching an appliance case, faucet, etc. In that case
you'd still only get 120V. Between each hot and ground you have 120V.
Not sure how it works over there.

My point was 30mA could be achieved just as easily with 120V. Making it higher than enough to kill you doesn't matter.


30ma can't be achieved just as easily with 120V as with 240V. The
human body has resistance, tap water has resistance, etc. Under the
same conditions where 30ma is going through you at 240V, you'd only
have about half that at 120V.

I disagree. The resistance isn't enough to get anything like as low as 30mA with either voltage. Why do you think circuit breakers manage to trip when you touch live and earth? They need 30mA to trip.

IDK what you're talking about now. For starters, circuit breakers
don't trip when you touch live and earth, unless it is a GFCI breaker,
which are the less common type and only required in certain applications.

Of course that's the type I'm talking about, hence me referring to 30mA, not 15A. In the UK, the whole house is protected by such things, why wouldn't it be? This is why I use fuses.

If you're using fuses, why are you talking about GFCI? Of all the
circuit breakers in the world, only a small fraction are GFCI.

I'm using fuses but most people here use GFCI. All breakers are GFCI, or if you're a cheapskate, you have a GFCI or two master breaker which cuts off all the others. Why invent a "life saving" device then only use it here and there?

Second, per Ohms law, the higher the voltage in a given circuit,
the higher the current. A human body, together with the rest of
the circuit that completes it, has some resistance value. With a
higher voltage, you will have higher current flowing, ergo it's
easier to get to your 30ma.

My point is both voltages will easily exceed 30mA.

As stated previously, it depends on the resistance of the entire
circuit, including human body. Will it exceed 30ma in most cases,
whether it's 120V or 240V, probably. But that doesn't change the
fact that more current will flow at 240V than at 120V. Where with
one you could have 30ma, with the other you could have 60ma and
the higher it is, the worse it is. Capiche?

No, as you stated 30mA would kill you. Dying twice is no worse than dying once.

If they didn't, those GFCI breakers would never trip. Killing you with 120mA is no worse than killing you with 60mA.

Why do you keep going back to GFCI all the time?

Because they prove that 30mA is attainable by touching live and ground with your body.

I just measured my resistance from hand to hand (the most likely path to get through the heart). 50kohm with wet hands, 500kohm with dry hands. At 120V, that's 2mA wet and 0.2mA dry. At 240V, that's 5mA wet and 0.5mA dry. No wonder I've never stopped my heart. It's impossible. The body has way more resistance than I thought. And I was squeezing as hard as I could for a good contact.

Following that faulty logic, no one would ever be electrocuted by
120V, 240V, etc. There would be no need for GFCI. Yet it happens all
the time.

No it doesn't. You need a very weak heart to die, most hearts will restart automatically as soon as the power is removed. And I'm not convinced about the 30mA, perhaps with a weak heart you can die with a few mA, or people manage to get power going into their chest and not their hands.

--
Her face was a perfect oval, like a circle that had its two other sides gently compressed by a Thigh Master.

On 10/03/2016 14:43, trader_4 wrote:
On Thursday, March 10, 2016 at 9:14:22 AM UTC-5, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Mon, 07 Mar 2016 14:48:12 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 6:38:12 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sun, 6 Mar 2016 12:20:17 -0500, "Ralph Mowery"
wrote:

Some of the code is way above ,but guess the government is trying to prevent
people from doing stupid things. They are regulating how hot the coffee can
be in restraunts now. Seems that a while aback someone got some hot coffee
at a drive through and spilled it on their selves and got burnt and sued and
won about 5 or 6 million dollars for that.

They were awarded a huge amount (2.68 million, i believe), but
McDonalds appealed and the payment was significantly reduced, with the
woman eventually recieving $640,000.

And there were extenuating circumstances too. The plaintiff showed that
McDonalds knew for a long time that their coffee was far hotter than
coffee at similar places, dangerously hot, etc and did nothing about it.
It was so hot that it melted the nylon the woman was wearing, as I recall.

It can't be more than boiling point. Most people boil the water for their coffee. There is no excuse for the woman being so stupid.


The correct brewing temp for coffee is ~200F. That's brewing temp,
not serving temp. Serving temp varies from place to place, but
IDK any place here that serves it anywhere close to boiling,
~160 - 170F seems to be a typical serving temp. McDonalds
was *serving* it at around 200, as I recall. And how was the woman
stupid? She bought the coffee at a McDonald;s drive-thru. It
accidentally spilled. If she's stupid for buying coffee at their
drive-thru, then McD is stupid for selling it at their drive-thru.
And it was shown that McD knew that it was exceptionally hot, the
woman did not.

Doesn't Mc D use tightly fitted lids on their coffee in drive throughs?
I agree with Mr Macaw, that she was negligent.

--
Bod

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

On 10/03/2016 14:53, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Thu, 10 Mar 2016 14:43:11 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Thursday, March 10, 2016 at 9:14:22 AM UTC-5, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Mon, 07 Mar 2016 14:48:12 -0000, trader_4
wrote:

On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 6:38:12 PM UTC-5,
wrote:
On Sun, 6 Mar 2016 12:20:17 -0500, "Ralph Mowery"
wrote:

Some of the code is way above ,but guess the government is trying
to prevent
people from doing stupid things. They are regulating how hot the
coffee can
be in restraunts now. Seems that a while aback someone got some
hot coffee
at a drive through and spilled it on their selves and got burnt
and sued and
won about 5 or 6 million dollars for that.

They were awarded a huge amount (2.68 million, i believe), but
McDonalds appealed and the payment was significantly reduced, with
the
woman eventually recieving $640,000.

And there were extenuating circumstances too. The plaintiff showed
that
McDonalds knew for a long time that their coffee was far hotter than
coffee at similar places, dangerously hot, etc and did nothing
about it.
It was so hot that it melted the nylon the woman was wearing, as I
recall.

It can't be more than boiling point. Most people boil the water for
their coffee. There is no excuse for the woman being so stupid.


The correct brewing temp for coffee is ~200F. That's brewing temp,
not serving temp. Serving temp varies from place to place, but
IDK any place here that serves it anywhere close to boiling,
~160 - 170F seems to be a typical serving temp. McDonalds
was *serving* it at around 200, as I recall.

So what, all are hot enough to burn you, which is why I don't understand
peopledrinking hot coffe. I always have to wait about 10-15 minutes
before I can drink it.

And how was the woman
stupid? She bought the coffee at a McDonald;s drive-thru. It
accidentally spilled. If she's stupid for buying coffee at their
drive-thru, then McD is stupid for selling it at their drive-thru.
And it was shown that McD knew that it was exceptionally hot, the
woman did not.

She picked up a cup of something and couldn't tell what temperature it
was? She balanced it in her lap then spilt it. Coffee is hot, that's a
simple fact known to anyone with half a brain. This ****wit must have
thought she'd ordered pop or something. Is she retarded? What was she
doing driving a car if she was that dopey? Fine her for frivolous
allegations. Even better drown the lawyer who took her side. Even
better drown all lawyers. Slowly. Take responsibility for your own
actions and stop blaming other people like pathetic little 6 year olds.
In the UK, that lawsuit would have failed immediately. But then again,
UK intelligence is a lot higher. If you guys would stop protecting your
dumbasses, your next generation might match the intelligence of the rest
of the world and you'd no longer be the laughing stock of our planet.

Agreed, everyone knows that America is a blame and claim society.
Spilling coffee down yourself is your own fault, unless the server
threw it at the customer of course.
People should take responsibility for their own actions.

--
Bod

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

On Thu, 10 Mar 2016 15:16:59 -0000, Bod wrote:

On 10/03/2016 14:43, trader_4 wrote:
On Thursday, March 10, 2016 at 9:14:22 AM UTC-5, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Mon, 07 Mar 2016 14:48:12 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 6:38:12 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sun, 6 Mar 2016 12:20:17 -0500, "Ralph Mowery"
wrote:

Some of the code is way above ,but guess the government is trying to prevent
people from doing stupid things. They are regulating how hot the coffee can
be in restraunts now. Seems that a while aback someone got some hot coffee
at a drive through and spilled it on their selves and got burnt and sued and
won about 5 or 6 million dollars for that.

They were awarded a huge amount (2.68 million, i believe), but
McDonalds appealed and the payment was significantly reduced, with the
woman eventually recieving $640,000.

And there were extenuating circumstances too. The plaintiff showed that
McDonalds knew for a long time that their coffee was far hotter than
coffee at similar places, dangerously hot, etc and did nothing about it.
It was so hot that it melted the nylon the woman was wearing, as I recall.

It can't be more than boiling point. Most people boil the water for their coffee. There is no excuse for the woman being so stupid.

The correct brewing temp for coffee is ~200F. That's brewing temp,
not serving temp. Serving temp varies from place to place, but
IDK any place here that serves it anywhere close to boiling,
~160 - 170F seems to be a typical serving temp. McDonalds
was *serving* it at around 200, as I recall. And how was the woman
stupid? She bought the coffee at a McDonald;s drive-thru. It
accidentally spilled. If she's stupid for buying coffee at their
drive-thru, then McD is stupid for selling it at their drive-thru.
And it was shown that McD knew that it was exceptionally hot, the
woman did not.

Doesn't Mc D use tightly fitted lids on their coffee in drive throughs?
I agree with Mr Macaw, that she was negligent.

Managing to spill it on her vagina showed she was doing something stupid with it. The only time I've ever spilt any liquid in my lap was when I've been drinking it and coughed, in which case I wouldn't have been drinking it when it was too hot. Why didn't she just leave it to cool somewhere? How hard can it be to have two brain cells? How do these people work out how to reproduce?

--
We used to mock the Americans' litigiousness, political correctness, health & safety obsessions and the like.
Now Britain is full of lazy lard buckets who'll sue for everything they can get if they even stub their toe on something.
I need to find a new country to live in.

On Thu, 10 Mar 2016 14:21:07 -0000, "Mr Macaw" wrote:

which are the less common type and only required in certain applications.

Of course that's the type I'm talking about, hence me referring to 30mA, not 15A. In the UK, the whole house is protected by such things, why wouldn't it be? This is why I use fuses.

You folks are talking apples, oranges and pomegranates

In UK, Oz and NZ they have an RCD that looks for ground faults in the
range of 30ma and disconnect the whole panel.
This is a typical NZ panel.
The red breaker is the main, the blue the RCD and the rest are branch
circuit breakers.

In the US we only protect single branch circuits or individual loads
with a GFCI but that is at 5ma.
When we see 30ma protection, it is called "ground fault protection for
equipment" because we think 30ma is too high to protect people.
One thing you must keep in mind is 5ma might not kill you but it can
still cause you to fall off the ladder.

On Thu, 10 Mar 2016 11:08:30 -0500, wrote:

Forgot the picture

On Thu, 10 Mar 2016 14:21:07 -0000, "Mr Macaw" wrote:

which are the less common type and only required in certain applications.

Of course that's the type I'm talking about, hence me referring to 30mA, not 15A. In the UK, the whole house is protected by such things, why wouldn't it be? This is why I use fuses.

You folks are talking apples, oranges and pomegranates

In UK, Oz and NZ they have an RCD that looks for ground faults in the
range of 30ma and disconnect the whole panel.
This is a typical NZ panel.
The red breaker is the main, the blue the RCD and the rest are branch
circuit breakers.

http://gfretwell.com/ftp/New%20Zeala...el%20board.jpg

In the US we only protect single branch circuits or individual loads
with a GFCI but that is at 5ma.
When we see 30ma protection, it is called "ground fault protection for
equipment" because we think 30ma is too high to protect people.
One thing you must keep in mind is 5ma might not kill you but it can
still cause you to fall off the ladder.

On Thu, 10 Mar 2016 16:08:30 -0000, wrote:

On Thu, 10 Mar 2016 14:21:07 -0000, "Mr Macaw" wrote:

which are the less common type and only required in certain applications.

Of course that's the type I'm talking about, hence me referring to 30mA, not 15A. In the UK, the whole house is protected by such things, why wouldn't it be? This is why I use fuses.

You folks are talking apples, oranges and pomegranates

In UK, Oz and NZ they have an RCD that looks for ground faults in the
range of 30ma and disconnect the whole panel.
This is a typical NZ panel.
The red breaker is the main, the blue the RCD and the rest are branch
circuit breakers.

In the US we only protect single branch circuits or individual loads
with a GFCI but that is at 5ma.
When we see 30ma protection, it is called "ground fault protection for
equipment" because we think 30ma is too high to protect people.
One thing you must keep in mind is 5ma might not kill you but it can
still cause you to fall off the ladder.

I see, so you're being way too safe again. Bunch of pansies is what you are. When we put in RCDs at 30mA, it was advertised you wouldn't even feel it when you touched the live. I touched a live wire on my mower without any breaker on it (a rat had chewed the flex) and had my bare feet on the ground. I jumped SLIGHTLY and said "Aya*******!" Having that on a trip would have reduced it to un-noticeable..

--
A military pilot called for a priority landing because his single-engine jet fighter was running "a bit peaked."
Air Traffic Control told the fighter jock that he was number two, behind a B-52 that had one engine shut down.
"Ah," the fighter pilot remarked, "The dreaded seven-engine approach."

On Thu, 10 Mar 2016 16:08:30 -0000, wrote:

On Thu, 10 Mar 2016 14:21:07 -0000, "Mr Macaw" wrote:

which are the less common type and only required in certain applications.

Of course that's the type I'm talking about, hence me referring to 30mA, not 15A. In the UK, the whole house is protected by such things, why wouldn't it be? This is why I use fuses.

You folks are talking apples, oranges and pomegranates

In UK, Oz and NZ they have an RCD that looks for ground faults in the
range of 30ma and disconnect the whole panel.
This is a typical NZ panel.
The red breaker is the main, the blue the RCD and the rest are branch
circuit breakers.

In the US we only protect single branch circuits or individual loads
with a GFCI but that is at 5ma.
When we see 30ma protection, it is called "ground fault protection for
equipment" because we think 30ma is too high to protect people.
One thing you must keep in mind is 5ma might not kill you but it can
still cause you to fall off the ladder.

I see, so you're being way too safe again. Bunch of pansies is what you are. When we put in RCDs at 30mA, it was advertised you wouldn't even feel it when you touched the live. I touched a live wire on my mower without any breaker on it (a rat had chewed the flex) and had my bare feet on the ground. I jumped SLIGHTLY and said "Aya*******!" Having that on a trip would have reduced it to un-noticeable..

--
A military pilot called for a priority landing because his single-engine jet fighter was running "a bit peaked."
Air Traffic Control told the fighter jock that he was number two, behind a B-52 that had one engine shut down.
"Ah," the fighter pilot remarked, "The dreaded seven-engine approach."

On Thu, 10 Mar 2016 16:35:32 -0000, wrote:

On Thu, 10 Mar 2016 11:08:30 -0500, wrote:

Forgot the picture

On Thu, 10 Mar 2016 14:21:07 -0000, "Mr Macaw" wrote:

which are the less common type and only required in certain applications.

Of course that's the type I'm talking about, hence me referring to 30mA, not 15A. In the UK, the whole house is protected by such things, why wouldn't it be? This is why I use fuses.

You folks are talking apples, oranges and pomegranates

In UK, Oz and NZ they have an RCD that looks for ground faults in the
range of 30ma and disconnect the whole panel.
This is a typical NZ panel.
The red breaker is the main, the blue the RCD and the rest are branch
circuit breakers.

http://gfretwell.com/ftp/New%20Zeala...el%20board.jpg

The ones I've seen don't have the superfluous red one. The blue one is used to switch everything off, aswell as interrupt if there's 30mA to earth. They've started putting in more than one blue one, hence you don't cut the whole house off when someone gets a shock, eg. you don't get put in the dark when you get a shock.

--
The Web brings people together because no matter what kind of a twisted sexual mutant you happen to be, you've got millions of pals out there. Type in "Find people that have sex with goats that are on fire" and the computer will say "Specify type of goat." -- Rich Jeni

On Thu, 10 Mar 2016 16:49:08 -0000, "Mr Macaw" wrote:

On Thu, 10 Mar 2016 16:08:30 -0000, wrote:

On Thu, 10 Mar 2016 14:21:07 -0000, "Mr Macaw" wrote:

which are the less common type and only required in certain applications.

Of course that's the type I'm talking about, hence me referring to 30mA, not 15A. In the UK, the whole house is protected by such things, why wouldn't it be? This is why I use fuses.

You folks are talking apples, oranges and pomegranates

In UK, Oz and NZ they have an RCD that looks for ground faults in the
range of 30ma and disconnect the whole panel.
This is a typical NZ panel.
The red breaker is the main, the blue the RCD and the rest are branch
circuit breakers.

In the US we only protect single branch circuits or individual loads
with a GFCI but that is at 5ma.
When we see 30ma protection, it is called "ground fault protection for
equipment" because we think 30ma is too high to protect people.
One thing you must keep in mind is 5ma might not kill you but it can
still cause you to fall off the ladder.

I see, so you're being way too safe again. Bunch of pansies is what you are. When we put in RCDs at 30mA, it was advertised you wouldn't even feel it when you touched the live. I touched a live wire on my mower without any breaker on it (a rat had chewed the flex) and had my bare feet on the ground. I jumped SLIGHTLY and said "Aya*******!" Having that on a trip would have reduced it to un-noticeable..

You can get your bell rung pretty good at 30ma. Even the 5ma will wake
you up.

I do think you should go easy on the "pansy" talk tho.
300,000,000-400,000,000 million guns don't seem to scare us much and
well over a million are even machine guns.

On Thu, 10 Mar 2016 16:52:19 -0000, Mr Macaw wrote:

On Thu, 10 Mar 2016 16:35:32 -0000, wrote:

On Thu, 10 Mar 2016 11:08:30 -0500, wrote:

Forgot the picture

On Thu, 10 Mar 2016 14:21:07 -0000, "Mr Macaw" wrote:

which are the less common type and only required in certain applications.

Of course that's the type I'm talking about, hence me referring to 30mA, not 15A. In the UK, the whole house is protected by such things, why wouldn't it be? This is why I use fuses.

You folks are talking apples, oranges and pomegranates

In UK, Oz and NZ they have an RCD that looks for ground faults in the
range of 30ma and disconnect the whole panel.
This is a typical NZ panel.
The red breaker is the main, the blue the RCD and the rest are branch
circuit breakers.

http://gfretwell.com/ftp/New%20Zeala...el%20board.jpg

The ones I've seen don't have the superfluous red one. The blue one is used to switch everything off, aswell as interrupt if there's 30mA to earth. They've started putting in more than one blue one, hence you don't cut the whole house off when someone gets a shock, eg. you don't get put in the dark when you get a shock.

Forgot to mention, non-cheapskates get combined current limit breakers and earth leakage breakers, so every circuit has its own protection for both.

--
A. Top posters.
Q. What's the most annoying thing on newsgroups?

On Mon, 07 Mar 2016 00:17:21 -0000, DerbyDad03 wrote:

On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 5:52:15 PM UTC-5, wrote:


With alternating current, there is a feeling of electric shock as long
as contact is made. In contrast, with direct current, there is only a
feeling of shock when the circuit is made or broken. While the contact
is maintained, there is no sensation of shock. Below 300 mA DC rms,
there is no let-go phenomenon because the hand is not involuntarily
clamped. There is a feeling of warmth while the current travels
through the arm. Making or breaking the circuit leads to painful
unpleasant shocks. Above 300 mA, letting go may be impossible.4 The
threshold for ventricular fibrillation for direct current shocks
longer than 2 seconds is 150 mA as compared with 50 mA for 60-Hz
shocks; for shocks shorter than 0.2 seconds, the threshold is the same
as that for 60-HZ shocks, that is, approximately 500 mA.4


Based on my "inability to let go" experience while in the USCG, I don't
think I agree with this statement:

"...with direct current, there is only a feeling of shock when the
circuit is made or broken. While the contact is maintained, there
is no sensation of shock."

I was learning how to work on power supplies using a "training device"
while attending the USCG electronics school. The training device was a
microwave sized 300VDC power supply which was set up to easily
accept failed components that the students had to find via systematic
trouble shooting steps. It was basically an open box so that all the
components were in full view. It weighed in at about 35 lbs.

One of the troubleshooting steps was to remove the built in load from
the power supply to see if the symptoms changed. The proper way to
remove the load was to shut down the power supply, remove a jumper -
a short cable with banana plugs on both ends - and then turn the power
supply back on.

I was a cocky kid and to save time I figured I would just grab the
jumper in the middle of the loop and just yank it out. Unfortunately,
the load side of the jumper came out, but the supply side stayed in.
I had my left forearm resting on the case and the open end of the jumper
came in contact with my hand. (4 decades later and the scars are still
very visible). At that point my arm became the load for the 300VDC supply
and my brain did not like it. I couldn't move my left arm so my brain
told my right arm to push the case away. As soon as my right arm touched
the case, I was stuck. I grabbed the 35 lb unit and lifted it right off
the table screaming "Turn it off! Turn it off!"

What a wimp!

I absolutely could not
let go

You had two unshocked legs, why didn't you use them?

and I absolutely felt the electricity flowing through my arms
and chest. It was no "feeling of warmth", it was in every way the
"sensation of shock".

The lab was set up like a classroom and when I started yelling the
guy in front of me turned around and grabbed the power cord to pull
it out of the power strip on my table. Unfortunately, the power strip
just came up with the cord. The guy next to him slammed the power strip
back down to the table and the cord came out. Once the current stopped
flowing through my chest, I literally threw the power supply down onto
the table. Man, was I ****ed.

Now you see myself, and most people I studied with at uni would have laughed or filmed the incident before helping you.

They took me to the infirmary and did the whole EKG thing.

What, incase your arms were upset? Your heart was clearly still beating, what's the fuss about?

It turned out that I was OK,

Oh what a surprise.

other than being pretty shook up and having some bad burns
on both hands.

I';m sure you'll live. Oh, you did.

When I went back to class the next day, a couple of things
had changed:

1 - 2 guys quit electronics school after seeing what happened to me.

Even more wimpier than you.

2 - All the power strips had been screwed down to the tables. :-)

Glad to hear they didn't go all health and softy and change the jumpers. It was you that did something daft, no changes were necessary.

Anyway, bottom line is that I do not agree that with DC there is "no
sensation of shock" while contact is maintained.

I'd say from personal experience of both, that both feel the same, but AC allows you to let go, as your muscles are "shivering" at 50Hz, not cramped up.

--
Customer explaining flooded car to insurance claim investigator:
"It didn't look that deep at first glance - it only came half way up the ducks."

On Mon, 07 Mar 2016 02:44:31 -0000, wrote:

On Sun, 6 Mar 2016 18:28:47 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 8:13:13 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sun, 6 Mar 2016 16:17:21 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 5:52:15 PM UTC-5, wrote:


With alternating current, there is a feeling of electric shock as long
as contact is made. In contrast, with direct current, there is only a
feeling of shock when the circuit is made or broken. While the contact
is maintained, there is no sensation of shock. Below 300 mA DC rms,
there is no let-go phenomenon because the hand is not involuntarily
clamped. There is a feeling of warmth while the current travels
through the arm. Making or breaking the circuit leads to painful
unpleasant shocks. Above 300 mA, letting go may be impossible.4 The
threshold for ventricular fibrillation for direct current shocks
longer than 2 seconds is 150 mA as compared with 50 mA for 60-Hz
shocks; for shocks shorter than 0.2 seconds, the threshold is the same
as that for 60-HZ shocks, that is, approximately 500 mA.4


Based on my "inability to let go" experience while in the USCG, I don't
think I agree with this statement:

"...with direct current, there is only a feeling of shock when the
circuit is made or broken. While the contact is maintained, there
is no sensation of shock."

I was learning how to work on power supplies using a "training device"
while attending the USCG electronics school. The training device was a
microwave sized 300VDC power supply which was set up to easily
accept failed components that the students had to find via systematic
trouble shooting steps. It was basically an open box so that all the
components were in full view. It weighed in at about 35 lbs.

One of the troubleshooting steps was to remove the built in load from
the power supply to see if the symptoms changed. The proper way to
remove the load was to shut down the power supply, remove a jumper -
a short cable with banana plugs on both ends - and then turn the power
supply back on.

I was a cocky kid and to save time I figured I would just grab the
jumper in the middle of the loop and just yank it out. Unfortunately,
the load side of the jumper came out, but the supply side stayed in.
I had my left forearm resting on the case and the open end of the jumper
came in contact with my hand. (4 decades later and the scars are still
very visible). At that point my arm became the load for the 300VDC supply
and my brain did not like it. I couldn't move my left arm so my brain
told my right arm to push the case away. As soon as my right arm touched
the case, I was stuck. I grabbed the 35 lb unit and lifted it right off
the table screaming "Turn it off! Turn it off!" I absolutely could not
let go and I absolutely felt the electricity flowing through my arms
and chest. It was no "feeling of warmth", it was in every way the
"sensation of shock".

But totally different than an AC shock. You had the muscle clench but
it's totally different from AC.

The lines I object to are not related to the muscle clench. I specifically
quoted the lines related to no sensation of shock while contact is
maintained. The article says that no shock will be felt and I sure as
hell felt the shock during the entire time I maintained contact. Up one
arm, across my chest and back down the other arm.



The lab was set up like a classroom and when I started yelling the
guy in front of me turned around and grabbed the power cord to pull
it out of the power strip on my table. Unfortunately, the power strip
just came up with the cord. The guy next to him slammed the power strip
back down to the table and the cord came out. Once the current stopped
flowing through my chest, I literally threw the power supply down onto
the table. Man, was I ****ed.

They took me to the infirmary and did the whole EKG thing. It turned out
that I was OK, other than being pretty shook up and having some bad burns
on both hands. When I went back to class the next day, a couple of things
had changed:

1 - 2 guys quit electronics school after seeing what happened to me.
2 - All the power strips had been screwed down to the tables. :-)

Anyway, bottom line is that I do not agree that with DC there is "no
sensation of shock" while contact is maintained.

I've had ac and dc shocks - and I will say for the same
voltage/current capacity, AC hurts one hell of a lot more than DC. DC
hurts like hell when you get hit, and again when you get off of it. In
between there is pain - but mostly due to constant muscle contraction
- and there is heat.

With AC it just plain hurts like hell - period.. Along with the pain
is the continuous pulsing of the muscle contractions - with 50 or 60
hz AC - a bit different with 400 or higher frequency - and even worse
with something like 25 hz. Lets just say it "hertz"

Then your body isn't the same as everyone else's.

--
Oh my goodness what a caper, someone's ****ed on the magic paper.

On 10/03/2016 16:35, wrote:
On Thu, 10 Mar 2016 11:08:30 -0500, wrote:

Forgot the picture

On Thu, 10 Mar 2016 14:21:07 -0000, "Mr Macaw" wrote:

which are the less common type and only required in certain applications.

Of course that's the type I'm talking about, hence me referring to 30mA, not 15A. In the UK, the whole house is protected by such things, why wouldn't it be? This is why I use fuses.

You folks are talking apples, oranges and pomegranates

In UK, Oz and NZ they have an RCD that looks for ground faults in the
range of 30ma and disconnect the whole panel.
This is a typical NZ panel.
The red breaker is the main, the blue the RCD and the rest are branch
circuit breakers.

http://gfretwell.com/ftp/New%20Zeala...el%20board.jpg

In the US we only protect single branch circuits or individual loads
with a GFCI but that is at 5ma.
When we see 30ma protection, it is called "ground fault protection for
equipment" because we think 30ma is too high to protect people.
One thing you must keep in mind is 5ma might not kill you but it can
still cause you to fall off the ladder.

Then use battery or petrol driven tools up a ladder.

--
Bod

---
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https://www.avast.com/antivirus

On Thu, 10 Mar 2016 17:48:53 -0000, wrote:

On Thu, 10 Mar 2016 16:49:08 -0000, "Mr Macaw" wrote:

On Thu, 10 Mar 2016 16:08:30 -0000, wrote:

On Thu, 10 Mar 2016 14:21:07 -0000, "Mr Macaw" wrote:

which are the less common type and only required in certain applications.

Of course that's the type I'm talking about, hence me referring to 30mA, not 15A. In the UK, the whole house is protected by such things, why wouldn't it be? This is why I use fuses.

You folks are talking apples, oranges and pomegranates

In UK, Oz and NZ they have an RCD that looks for ground faults in the
range of 30ma and disconnect the whole panel.
This is a typical NZ panel.
The red breaker is the main, the blue the RCD and the rest are branch
circuit breakers.

In the US we only protect single branch circuits or individual loads
with a GFCI but that is at 5ma.
When we see 30ma protection, it is called "ground fault protection for
equipment" because we think 30ma is too high to protect people.
One thing you must keep in mind is 5ma might not kill you but it can
still cause you to fall off the ladder.

I see, so you're being way too safe again. Bunch of pansies is what you are. When we put in RCDs at 30mA, it was advertised you wouldn't even feel it when you touched the live. I touched a live wire on my mower without any breaker on it (a rat had chewed the flex) and had my bare feet on the ground. I jumped SLIGHTLY and said "Aya*******!" Having that on a trip would have reduced it to un-noticeable..

You can get your bell rung pretty good at 30ma. Even the 5ma will wake
you up.

Not for a very short period of time, which is all the breaker allows.

I do think you should go easy on the "pansy" talk tho.
300,000,000-400,000,000 million guns don't seem to scare us much and
well over a million are even machine guns.

You have guns BECAUSE you're scared.

--
Extract from a customer complaint letter sent to The Body Shop:
I recently shampooed my pet rabbit with Body Shop shampoo. Its eyes bulged out and turned red. If you tested your stuff on animals like everyone else, this sort of thing wouldn't happen...

On Thu, 10 Mar 2016 19:05:25 -0000, Bod wrote:

On 10/03/2016 16:35, wrote:
On Thu, 10 Mar 2016 11:08:30 -0500, wrote:

Forgot the picture

On Thu, 10 Mar 2016 14:21:07 -0000, "Mr Macaw" wrote:

which are the less common type and only required in certain applications.

Of course that's the type I'm talking about, hence me referring to 30mA, not 15A. In the UK, the whole house is protected by such things, why wouldn't it be? This is why I use fuses.

You folks are talking apples, oranges and pomegranates

In UK, Oz and NZ they have an RCD that looks for ground faults in the
range of 30ma and disconnect the whole panel.
This is a typical NZ panel.
The red breaker is the main, the blue the RCD and the rest are branch
circuit breakers.

http://gfretwell.com/ftp/New%20Zeala...el%20board.jpg

In the US we only protect single branch circuits or individual loads
with a GFCI but that is at 5ma.
When we see 30ma protection, it is called "ground fault protection for
equipment" because we think 30ma is too high to protect people.
One thing you must keep in mind is 5ma might not kill you but it can
still cause you to fall off the ladder.

Then use battery or petrol driven tools up a ladder.

[Imagines somebody with spilt petrol catching fire up a ladder]

I always opt for battery tools, mainly so the cord isn't in my way, or not long enough.

--
Mrs. Culpepper was almost in tears. "Oh Marie," she said to her maid, "I have reason to suspect that my husband is having an affair with his secretary."
"I don't believe it for one minute." Marie snapped. "You're just saying that to make me jealous."

On Thu, 10 Mar 2016 19:05:25 +0000, Bod wrote:

On 10/03/2016 16:35, wrote:
On Thu, 10 Mar 2016 11:08:30 -0500, wrote:

Forgot the picture

On Thu, 10 Mar 2016 14:21:07 -0000, "Mr Macaw" wrote:

which are the less common type and only required in certain applications.

Of course that's the type I'm talking about, hence me referring to 30mA, not 15A. In the UK, the whole house is protected by such things, why wouldn't it be? This is why I use fuses.

You folks are talking apples, oranges and pomegranates

In UK, Oz and NZ they have an RCD that looks for ground faults in the
range of 30ma and disconnect the whole panel.
This is a typical NZ panel.
The red breaker is the main, the blue the RCD and the rest are branch
circuit breakers.

http://gfretwell.com/ftp/New%20Zeala...el%20board.jpg

In the US we only protect single branch circuits or individual loads
with a GFCI but that is at 5ma.
When we see 30ma protection, it is called "ground fault protection for
equipment" because we think 30ma is too high to protect people.
One thing you must keep in mind is 5ma might not kill you but it can
still cause you to fall off the ladder.

Then use battery or petrol driven tools up a ladder.

This usually involves someone working on a ceiling light or other
electrical equipment.

On Thu, 10 Mar 2016 19:05:30 -0000, "Mr Macaw" wrote:

On Thu, 10 Mar 2016 17:48:53 -0000, wrote:


I do think you should go easy on the "pansy" talk tho.
300,000,000-400,000,000 million guns don't seem to scare us much and
well over a million are even machine guns.

You have guns BECAUSE you're scared.

We have guns because we can. The thing a lot of people do not
understand is there is a very active shooting sport community here.
Beyond hunting we also have skeet, trap, sporting clays and a number
of different target sports. That is where most of the billions of
rounds of ammo that get fired here are used. It is just not worthy of
putting on CNN.

This is simply another country with another culture. You are 3000
miles away, I think you will be safe if you stay there.

On Thu, 10 Mar 2016 19:08:35 -0000, "Mr Macaw" wrote:

On Thu, 10 Mar 2016 19:05:25 -0000, Bod wrote:

Then use battery or petrol driven tools up a ladder.

[Imagines somebody with spilt petrol catching fire up a ladder]

I always opt for battery tools, mainly so the cord isn't in my way, or not long enough.

These days battery tools are becoming quite capable but it was not
that long ago that you needed a cord or air to get enough power to be
useful. In some cases I still prefer air tools, like working on the
dock.

On Mon, 07 Mar 2016 17:42:37 -0000, wrote:

On Sun, 6 Mar 2016 22:39:20 -0600, Muggles
wrote:

On 3/6/2016 10:25 PM, Uncle Monster wrote:
...there goes my mind off on a tangent again....SQUIRREL! o_O


shhhhhhhhhhhh!! The dog barks like crazy if we even HINT at that word.
We have to call them 'tree rats'.

We go the other way so we don't scare the tourists. We call rattus
rattus the "Palmetto Squirrel".

In real life a squirrel is just a rat with a bushy tail and a
publicist.

They behave nothing like rats.

--
"If hooking up one rag-head terrorist's testicles to a car battery gets the truth out of the lying little camel
shagger to save just one Scottish soldiers life, then I have only three things to say: Red is positive, Black is
negative, and make sure his nuts are wet" -- Jimmy MacDonald, Glasgow City Councillor

On Mon, 07 Mar 2016 04:39:20 -0000, Muggles wrote:

On 3/6/2016 10:25 PM, Uncle Monster wrote:
...there goes my mind off on a tangent again....SQUIRREL! o_O


shhhhhhhhhhhh!! The dog barks like crazy if we even HINT at that word.
We have to call them 'tree rats'.

Ask a German to say "squirrel".

--
"If hooking up one rag-head terrorist's testicles to a car battery gets the truth out of the lying little camel
shagger to save just one Scottish soldiers life, then I have only three things to say: Red is positive, Black is
negative, and make sure his nuts are wet" -- Jimmy MacDonald, Glasgow City Councillor

On Mon, 07 Mar 2016 04:39:20 -0000, Muggles wrote:

On 3/6/2016 10:25 PM, Uncle Monster wrote:
...there goes my mind off on a tangent again....SQUIRREL! o_O


shhhhhhhhhhhh!! The dog barks like crazy if we even HINT at that word.
We have to call them 'tree rats'.

Are American squirrels the same as UK ones? I ask because your robins are like our blackbirds. Our robins are red.

--
"If hooking up one rag-head terrorist's testicles to a car battery gets the truth out of the lying little camel
shagger to save just one Scottish soldiers life, then I have only three things to say: Red is positive, Black is
negative, and make sure his nuts are wet" -- Jimmy MacDonald, Glasgow City Councillor

On Thursday, March 10, 2016 at 9:54:07 AM UTC-5, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Thu, 10 Mar 2016 14:43:11 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Thursday, March 10, 2016 at 9:14:22 AM UTC-5, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Mon, 07 Mar 2016 14:48:12 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 6:38:12 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sun, 6 Mar 2016 12:20:17 -0500, "Ralph Mowery"
wrote:

Some of the code is way above ,but guess the government is trying to prevent
people from doing stupid things. They are regulating how hot the coffee can
be in restraunts now. Seems that a while aback someone got some hot coffee
at a drive through and spilled it on their selves and got burnt and sued and
won about 5 or 6 million dollars for that.

They were awarded a huge amount (2.68 million, i believe), but
McDonalds appealed and the payment was significantly reduced, with the
woman eventually recieving $640,000.

And there were extenuating circumstances too. The plaintiff showed that
McDonalds knew for a long time that their coffee was far hotter than
coffee at similar places, dangerously hot, etc and did nothing about it.
It was so hot that it melted the nylon the woman was wearing, as I recall.

It can't be more than boiling point. Most people boil the water for their coffee. There is no excuse for the woman being so stupid.


The correct brewing temp for coffee is ~200F. That's brewing temp,
not serving temp. Serving temp varies from place to place, but
IDK any place here that serves it anywhere close to boiling,
~160 - 170F seems to be a typical serving temp. McDonalds
was *serving* it at around 200, as I recall.

So what, all are hot enough to burn you, which is why I don't understand peopledrinking hot coffe. I always have to wait about 10-15 minutes before I can drink it.



Which is more likely to melt nylons and give you third degree burns?



And how was the woman
stupid? She bought the coffee at a McDonald;s drive-thru. It
accidentally spilled. If she's stupid for buying coffee at their
drive-thru, then McD is stupid for selling it at their drive-thru.
And it was shown that McD knew that it was exceptionally hot, the
woman did not.

She picked up a cup of something and couldn't tell what temperature it was?

I guess they don't have drive-thrus in the UK. She pulled up to a window
and they handed her the coffee. By then it was too late and she had
no way of knowing what temp it was. But McD did know that it was being
served at 200F, too hot for anyone to drink.



She balanced it in her lap then spilt it. Coffee is hot, that's a simple fact known to anyone with half a brain. This ****wit must have thought she'd ordered pop or something. Is she retarded? What was she doing driving a car if she was that dopey? Fine her for frivolous allegations. Even better drown the lawyer who took her side. Even better drown all lawyers. Slowly. Take responsibility for your own actions and stop blaming other people like pathetic little 6 year olds. In the UK, that lawsuit would have failed immediately. But then again, UK intelligence is a lot higher. If you guys would stop protecting your dumbasses, your next generation might match the intelligence of the rest of the world and you'd no longer be the laughing stock of our planet.

--

Feel free to rant. The jury ruled in her favor, it's over. And I think
there was enough evidence there to support the verdict.

On Thursday, March 10, 2016 at 11:08:44 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Thu, 10 Mar 2016 14:21:07 -0000, "Mr Macaw" wrote:

which are the less common type and only required in certain applications.

Of course that's the type I'm talking about, hence me referring to 30mA, not 15A. In the UK, the whole house is protected by such things, why wouldn't it be? This is why I use fuses.

You folks are talking apples, oranges and pomegranates

In UK, Oz and NZ they have an RCD that looks for ground faults in the
range of 30ma and disconnect the whole panel.
This is a typical NZ panel.
The red breaker is the main, the blue the RCD and the rest are branch
circuit breakers.

In the US we only protect single branch circuits or individual loads
with a GFCI but that is at 5ma.
When we see 30ma protection, it is called "ground fault protection for
equipment" because we think 30ma is too high to protect people.
One thing you must keep in mind is 5ma might not kill you but it can
still cause you to fall off the ladder.

And McCaw doesn't understand Ohms law either.

On 3/10/2016 1:51 PM, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Mon, 07 Mar 2016 04:39:20 -0000, Muggles
wrote:

On 3/6/2016 10:25 PM, Uncle Monster wrote:
...there goes my mind off on a tangent again....SQUIRREL! o_O


shhhhhhhhhhhh!! The dog barks like crazy if we even HINT at that word.
We have to call them 'tree rats'.

Are American squirrels the same as UK ones? I ask because your robins
are like our blackbirds. Our robins are red.


Don't know if your squirrels are the same as ours.

--
Maggie

On 10/03/2016 19:37, wrote:
On Thu, 10 Mar 2016 19:05:30 -0000, "Mr Macaw" wrote:

On Thu, 10 Mar 2016 17:48:53 -0000, wrote:


I do think you should go easy on the "pansy" talk tho.
300,000,000-400,000,000 million guns don't seem to scare us much and
well over a million are even machine guns.

You have guns BECAUSE you're scared.

We have guns because we can. The thing a lot of people do not
understand is there is a very active shooting sport community here.
Beyond hunting we also have skeet, trap, sporting clays and a number
of different target sports. That is where most of the billions of
rounds of ammo that get fired here are used. It is just not worthy of
putting on CNN.

This is simply another country with another culture. You are 3000
miles away, I think you will be safe if you stay there.

Yup, I can virtually guarantee that fact.

--
Bod

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
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On Mon, 07 Mar 2016 14:19:19 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 6:01:32 PM UTC-5, Mr Macaw wrote:


A factor that makes a large difference in the injury sustained in
low-voltage shocks is the inability to let go. The amount of current
in the arm that will cause the hand to involuntarily grip strongly is
referred to as the let-go current.7 If a person's fingers are wrapped
around a large cable or energized vacuum cleaner handle, for example,
most adults will be able to let go with a current of less than 6 mA.
At 22 mA, more than 99% of adults will not be able to let go. The pain
associated with the let-go current is so severe that young, motivated
volunteers could tolerate it for only a few seconds.

I call "********". I once picked up a wall socket which I'd used as a trailing socket, and it was wired backwards (earlier on, not by me), so when I'd switched it off, I'd disconnected the neutral and not the live. Hence I got 240V through my hand from live to earth. All it did was warm up my hand. I let go very easily.

It also doesn't make sense as written.

Why not?

Volunteers could only tolerate it for a few seconds? How long does it take to let go?

I held on for a few seconds until I realised why my hand was getting very warm inside. It wasn't painful, just weird.

With alternating current, there is a feeling of electric shock as long
as contact is made. In contrast, with direct current, there is only a
feeling of shock when the circuit is made or broken.

Incorrect again. Place a PP3 9V battery on your tongue. That will sting continuously until you remove it.

Agree, been there, done that too.

It was the classic dare at primary school. All little handheld games ran on those at that time.

--
Blind faith is an ironic gift to return to the creator of human intelligence.

On Mon, 07 Mar 2016 17:54:04 -0000, wrote:

On Mon, 7 Mar 2016 06:42:28 -0800 (PST), TimR
wrote:

Back to the main panel disconnect question.

My house always had the meter outside and the main panel inside, with the main disconnect on the panel.

When an upgrade was done to the main panel, an extra breaker was added outside just below the meter. The electrician said this was a code requirement, because wire between the meter and the panel needed to be protected because of the location.

Did this new breaker now become the service disconnect? And if so, is the main panel now noncompliant for having ground and neutral bonded?

Yes they should have pulled in a 4 wire feeder and separated the
neutral and ground.
The issue of how far the SE is running inside the house before it
needs protection is really undefined. Inspectors in the same
jurisdictions may even disagree.
On one extreme some say a few feet, as directly it can be run, using
SE cable, is just fine.
Others say they want a back to back installation with the wire simply
passing through the wall in a short pipe nipple.
The most extreme interpretation pretty much wants an outside
disconnect no matter what.

This is the code
230.70(A)(1) Readily Accessible Location. The service disconnecting
means shall be installed at a readily accessible location either
outside of a building or structure or inside nearest the point of
entrance of the service conductors.

What is this fuss about ground and neutral? They are one and the same here. Neutral is strapped to ground at the transformer.

--
I don't care what they say, I don't think "phone sex" is any fun at all, unless you happen to be in the same booth with her.

On Thu, 10 Mar 2016 19:50:29 -0000, "Mr Macaw" wrote:

On Mon, 07 Mar 2016 17:42:37 -0000, wrote:


We go the other way so we don't scare the tourists. We call rattus
rattus the "Palmetto Squirrel".

In real life a squirrel is just a rat with a bushy tail and a
publicist.

They behave nothing like rats.

Until they get in your attic and start chewing the wiring.

On Mon, 07 Mar 2016 14:42:28 -0000, TimR wrote:

Back to the main panel disconnect question.

My house always had the meter outside and the main panel inside, with the main disconnect on the panel.

When an upgrade was done to the main panel, an extra breaker was added outside just below the meter. The electrician said this was a code requirement, because wire between the meter and the panel needed to be protected because of the location.

Did this new breaker now become the service disconnect? And if so, is the main panel now noncompliant for having ground and neutral bonded?

To disconnect the wire between the meter and fusebox here, I simply pull out the master fuse next to the meter.

--
A high IQ is like a Jeep. You still get stuck, just further from help.

On Thu, 10 Mar 2016 20:09:34 -0000, wrote:

On Thu, 10 Mar 2016 19:50:29 -0000, "Mr Macaw" wrote:

On Mon, 07 Mar 2016 17:42:37 -0000, wrote:


We go the other way so we don't scare the tourists. We call rattus
rattus the "Palmetto Squirrel".

In real life a squirrel is just a rat with a bushy tail and a
publicist.

They behave nothing like rats.

Until they get in your attic and start chewing the wiring.

Odd, squirrels don't go in attics here. They are timid outdoors creatures who like trees. They will venture into a garden quickly to grab food from bird tables, but that's it.

I've had mice and rats, and they don't eat wiring, they eat food. Maybe your house is too clean and they resort to wires.

--
Bad command or file name! Go stand in the corner.

On Tue, 08 Mar 2016 01:26:01 -0000, Dean Hoffman wrote:

On Mon, 07 Mar 2016 17:19:00 -0600, Mr Macaw wrote:


Ah, this explains how they happen - warmer air higher up. But what I
want to know is, surely if the warm air is moving to the right, then
everything will melt soon anyway? And why do they happen in America and
not the UK?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_st...on_by_type.png

The freezing rain will often be accompanied by a cold front that brings
in
snow and much cooler weather. The storm I linked to earlier brought about
six or eight inches of snow if I recall correctly.
The snow will keep things cooler just because it reflects sunlight. I
remember
a snow that ended about 50 miles west of me. It was consistently about
10º F.
cooler there until the snow melted.

Never happens in the UK, maybe you need more land mass?

--
Hello, you have reached technical support.
Please dial 1 to report an issue, 2 to report a challenge, 3 to report a problem, or 4 to report a cockup.

On Thu, 10 Mar 2016 20:09:14 -0000, "Mr Macaw" wrote:

What is this fuss about ground and neutral? They are one and the same here. Neutral is strapped to ground at the transformer.

You have superconductors there? Cool. Here we have voltage drop on our
conductors and the farther you get from the place where the neutral is
bonded, the higher the voltage is on the neutral.

On Thu, 10 Mar 2016 23:33:48 -0000, "Mr Macaw" wrote:

Never happens in the UK, maybe you need more land mass?

You have that backward, your weather is very temperate because you
live on a fairly small island surrounded by water and no real
mountains. There is not much there to vary your weather.
It you just chose one state in the US, Arizona, (itself larger than
all of UK, including Ireland) you would have deserts where the
temperature is well over 50-55c and mountains 4 times the height of
your "Highlands" where -30-40c is not uncommon. When you have the jet
stream sweeping over a 3000 mile land mass, the weather is a lot more
variable than a place where the wind is coming across 3000 miles of
somewhat stable ocean water temperatures.
Then you get down where I am and the weather is tropical, a whole
different breed of cat. Hurricanes and tornadoes get most of the
attention but the typical summer thunderstorm still scares most
European tourists.
They tend not to be here in the summer tho. Tourist visas are only
good for 6 months and most choose the winter months.

On Tue, 08 Mar 2016 20:17:30 -0000, wrote:

On Tue, 08 Mar 2016 19:45:27 -0000, "Mr Macaw" wrote:


They don't seem beefy to me. I don't see why a small electric motor at 240V
would use 5 amps.

They just do. They're rated at around a kW. Decent ones more than that. We haven't used pathetic little 350W motors for about 40 years.

The typical vacuum here is rated at 2HP with some kind of phony rating
system but they usually do pull 10a or so. That makes it comparable to
what you are talking about. Some actually approach that maximum 1440w
that you can legally put on a 15a circuit.

The bloody EU is trying to limit the wattage of vacuum cleaners and hairdryers in the interest of carbon bull****. What a bunch of loonies.

Since these things are manufactured for an international market I bet
they perform about the same. They do make special cords that are
"vacuum rated" and I think that is basically that they use higher temp
insulation rating since it is still a pretty small cord. They do run
warm to the touch.

Ours don't get warm. My vacuum that uses 1000W at 230V is an 8A flex.

A 1 hp motor uses about 7. Even my shop type
vac has a cord that I'd say is about the size of a pencil.

I had a shopvac, it was at least a kW.

I have had a number of shop vacs and, side by side, there are plenty
of canister vacs used inside the home that are stronger and blow
harder than the 2 shop vacs I have (what I was testing). That is the
same thing though, since this is still just an air pump.
That shop vac is only special because of the bigger hopper and that
some can handle a bit of water.

Mine exploded. I used it to hoover up damp mess from a parrot aviary.

Or they take a minimal gauge cord and plug 6 things into it.

Never heard of a fuse?
They do not fuse plugs here, except for cheap asian christmas lights
with wire that is less than a mm (20 ga)

So all cords you plug in can take the full 15A of the breaker in the box then? If not, they should be fused. Especially an extension cord with more than one socket on the end.

Or they string together
several short ones, that aren't in the greatest shape, etc. Plus
they are a trip hazard. Plugging a hot plate or similar in on an
extension, you could trip on the extension and have a hot pot of
water land on you.

Don't people watch where they're going anymore? When did this silly phrase "trip hazard" get invented? If you're going to claim to have evolved to walk on two feet, you need to watch where they go.

This is becoming a nanny state. You can' do anything without bumping
into laws about helmets, seat belts, guard rails etc. A damned ladder
has to have about 15 labels warning of bad things that happen if you
actually climb up it.

I almost gave the "health and softy officer" at my last place of work a heart attack many times. To reach the ceiling to change the bulb in a projector, I placed 9 square desks in a 3x3 arrangement, 2x2 on that, then 1 on that. Then I climbed the pyramid and changed the bulb. She happened to walk in while I was doing it and said "I didn't see that!" then ran off. When she discovered I'd climbed onto the sloped roof of the two storey building to adjust a satellite dish for internet reception after strong winds, she almost cried.

240 equipment is generally going to be fixed in place anyway.

I will say that in my travels I was impressed with the 240v tea
kettle, if you really make that much tea.

So what are your kettles? 110 volts and 1.5kW? That would take an age to boil. Or do they have a 30 amp flex?

~1.5KW is what they are. I would agree, 240V for that would be real
sweet. Still the 120V electric kettle can heat it faster than using
the range and more efficiently.

I find the 3kW one too slow if it's full.

I can see that. The 120V one here I used to heat about a liter of
water to make coffee or tea. If I need more water than that, I do
it on the stove. I agree having a 240V electric kettle would be a
very handy thing. I never thought about it until you brought it up.
Maybe we can get something started here, put in 240V receptacles for
new kitchens. I'd like it.

Nothing to stop you putting in 240V sockets in your kitchen, then buying a UK kettle from Ebay etc.

Absolutely true. I admit, if I was actually boiling that much water, I
would do it. We can buy a duplex outlet that has 240 and 120 in the
same device and the 240 side would not even have to be GFCI (RCD).

Er..... you need to GFCI a low voltage but not the more dangerous 240?!

Since it is required to have two 120v circuits serving the counter top
it would be trivial to bring that from both sides of the center tap
with a neutral and split it right there for your two required 120v
circuits.
I was impressed by the 240v kettles in New Zealand but once I got
home, I realized, we don't drink tea. Coffee makers work fine on 120
and most do not even approach the 1440w available. A drip maker can
just "drip" so fast without overloading the filter pan. Even the big
commercial units are still 120v and commercial kitchens always have
240 available.

Yes, but the time taken from switching it on to getting the first cup of coffee would **** me off. I want it ready within 30 seconds of me wanting it.

I guess the bottom line is this side of the pond is 120v and it is
going to stay that way. We seem to get by.

I would accept that if you ONLY had 120V. But since you have the 240V available, why not use it? If I moved there, I'd likely change every damn outlet to 240V.

OK now explain why you drive on the wrong side of the road ;-)

Isn't it historical to do with knights and holding swords?

--
Michael Buerk on watching Phillipa Forrester cuddle up to a male astronomer for warmth during BBC1's UK eclipse coverage remarked: "They seem cold out there, they're rubbing each other and he's only come in his shorts."

On Tue, 08 Mar 2016 20:45:07 -0000, DerbyDad03 wrote:

On Tuesday, March 8, 2016 at 3:17:39 PM UTC-5, wrote:

...snip...

Coffee makers work fine on 120
and most do not even approach the 1440w available. A drip maker can
just "drip" so fast without overloading the filter pan.

...snip...

It's less about overloading the filter pan and more about "contact time".

If the water drips through too fast, the taste will be affected. Unfortunately,
with most home drip systems, you are at the mercy of the machine's drip rate.

SWMBO and I bought a $300 Breville unit for each other as a Christmas gift.
You can adjust the brew strength by adjusting the contact time. It makes a
really great cup of coffee, but it has too many features and too many parts
to clean to be convenient for everyday use. We ended up going back to our
basic drip machine, sacrificing some flavor for ease of use.

Stolen without permission from:

http://www.ncausa.org/About-Coffee/How-to-Brew-Coffee

Brewing Time

The amount of time that the water is in contact with the coffee grounds is
another important flavor factor.

In a drip system, the contact time should be approximately 5 minutes. If you
are making your coffee using a plunger pot, the contact time should be 2-4
minutes. Espresso has an especially brief brew time -- the coffee is in contact
with the water for only 20-30 seconds.

If you're not happy with the taste, it's possible that you're either over-
extracting (the brew time is too long) or under-extracting (the brew time is
too short). Experiment with the contact time until the taste suits you
perfectly.

Never heard of instant coffee? Boil water, add a spoon of powder, stir, add milk.


--
How to interpret a Pregnancy Test kit:
Blue means not pregnant.
Pink means pregnant.
Brown means you had it in the wrong hole.

On 3/12/2016 11:05 AM, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Tue, 08 Mar 2016 20:45:07 -0000, DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Tuesday, March 8, 2016 at 3:17:39 PM UTC-5, wrote:

...snip...

Coffee makers work fine on 120
and most do not even approach the 1440w available. A drip maker can
just "drip" so fast without overloading the filter pan.

...snip...

It's less about overloading the filter pan and more about "contact time".

If the water drips through too fast, the taste will be affected.
Unfortunately,
with most home drip systems, you are at the mercy of the machine's
drip rate.

SWMBO and I bought a $300 Breville unit for each other as a Christmas
gift.
You can adjust the brew strength by adjusting the contact time. It
makes a
really great cup of coffee, but it has too many features and too many
parts
to clean to be convenient for everyday use. We ended up going back to our
basic drip machine, sacrificing some flavor for ease of use.

Stolen without permission from:

http://www.ncausa.org/About-Coffee/How-to-Brew-Coffee

Brewing Time

The amount of time that the water is in contact with the coffee
grounds is
another important flavor factor.

In a drip system, the contact time should be approximately 5 minutes.
If you
are making your coffee using a plunger pot, the contact time should be
2-4
minutes. Espresso has an especially brief brew time -- the coffee is
in contact
with the water for only 20-30 seconds.

If you're not happy with the taste, it's possible that you're either
over-
extracting (the brew time is too long) or under-extracting (the brew
time is
too short). Experiment with the contact time until the taste suits you
perfectly.

Never heard of instant coffee? Boil water, add a spoon of powder, stir,
add milk.



Make it de-caf, and add home made creamer, for me.

--
Maggie