Hiya,
I've got a 10 year old house with a single electrical panel with a main
breaker of 100A. The
literature attached to the panel says it's rated for 125A. I'm not sure
what the feed from the electrical
company is....doesn't say on the meter unfortunately. Oh yeah, the panel
is full. Here's my dilemma:
I want to add some 220v to the garage to power a table saw and dust
collector. I'm not sure how to
approach this (an electrician will do the work but I want to be able to have
an idea how to go about this).
I have a 30A/220v/2 pole breaker that serves the dryer that isn't used. So
I could remove the existing wires
and run my receptacles from that but I'm not sure I like this idea.
Particularly if we want to sell the house
down the road. A second option, and I'm not sure this can be done code
wise, is removing the guts of the
can and replace with a higher service rated setup (ie. bus bars, lugs,
etc...). It looks like there is room for
a larger set up and the can even has pre-drilled holes to accept a larger
setup (of course I need to verify
the feed from the electric company is set up for a higher amperage). Is
this Code legal given the
sticker says "Max. of 125A" on it? Another option is to replace the entire
service which I really would rather
avoid. I tried the "replace the breakers with slim breakers" approach to
free up the space but unfortunately,
everything was already "slim". Any other ideas on how to approach this?
What sort of permits etc might I
need (different places, different rules, just looking for a general idea).

I am considering adding an outbuilding sometime down the road and was
thinking it might make sense to
scrap the current setup and put in a larger panel/can/etc.... and run the
outbuilding on a sub panel. Unfortunately,
I don't have the cashola to build that building right now and not sure I
ever will. So for now, I'm pretty
much looking for what will work vs. what makes more sense for down the road.

Anyway, thanks very much for any advice.
Cheers,
jlc

I can't comment on "replacing the guts". Seems like it ought to be okay,
but I don't actually know. A subpanel might make more sense anyhow.

You haven't said what your breaker box was, but they make quad breakers for
mine. That gives you two 240v circuits in the place of one. Have you
exhausted that route already?

You can alway put the work shop circuit in place of the dryer, and allow the
new owner the choice of which he wants to use it for. I can't see anyone
objecting to that.

I doubt you are getting 125a now; but that wouldn't matter unless you happen
to know you are right on the edge now and adding the new circuit will put
you over. At worst, you maybe couldn't use the table saw when the oven and
air conditioner are also in use; rarely a big deal.

James "Cubby" Culbertson wrote:

Hiya,
I've got a 10 year old house with a single electrical panel with a main
breaker of 100A. The
literature attached to the panel says it's rated for 125A. I'm not sure
what the feed from the electrical
company is....doesn't say on the meter unfortunately. Oh yeah, the panel
is full. Here's my dilemma:
I want to add some 220v to the garage to power a table saw and dust
collector. I'm not sure how to
approach this (an electrician will do the work but I want to be able to have
an idea how to go about this).
I have a 30A/220v/2 pole breaker that serves the dryer that isn't used. So
I could remove the existing wires
and run my receptacles from that but I'm not sure I like this idea.
Particularly if we want to sell the house
down the road. A second option, and I'm not sure this can be done code
wise, is removing the guts of the
can and replace with a higher service rated setup (ie. bus bars, lugs,
etc...). It looks like there is room for
a larger set up and the can even has pre-drilled holes to accept a larger
setup (of course I need to verify
the feed from the electric company is set up for a higher amperage). Is
this Code legal given the
sticker says "Max. of 125A" on it? Another option is to replace the entire
service which I really would rather
avoid. I tried the "replace the breakers with slim breakers" approach to
free up the space but unfortunately,
everything was already "slim". Any other ideas on how to approach this?
What sort of permits etc might I
need (different places, different rules, just looking for a general idea).

I am considering adding an outbuilding sometime down the road and was
thinking it might make sense to
scrap the current setup and put in a larger panel/can/etc.... and run the
outbuilding on a sub panel. Unfortunately,
I don't have the cashola to build that building right now and not sure I
ever will. So for now, I'm pretty
much looking for what will work vs. what makes more sense for down the road.

Anyway, thanks very much for any advice.
Cheers,
jlc



What kind of panel is it? Does it have feed-thru lugs, or can you get
lugs for it? Put a little 100A subpanel right next to it to give you 8
more spaces.

If there are no feed lugs in the old panel, you can replace that 30A
dryer breaker with a 60A or 70A breaker to feed the subpanel and move
the dryer to the subpanel.

It's kind of hard to give specific advice without more info.

Bob

Thanks Toller!
The box is made by Westinghouse. I did a quick look at Lowe's yesterday
and didn't
see any of the "quad breakers" as you describe. Lemme look around as that
might be
one solution. As for being on the edge, I'm far from it. The box has 240
circuits for the
dryer, stove, A/C, and water pump. I only use the water pump circuit since
we are gas on both
the dryer and stove. I'll definitely look into these quad breakers. The
current breakers
are the "BR" variety.
Cheers,
jlc

"toller" wrote in message
news
I can't comment on "replacing the guts". Seems like it ought to be okay,
but I don't actually know. A subpanel might make more sense anyhow.

You haven't said what your breaker box was, but they make quad breakers
for mine. That gives you two 240v circuits in the place of one. Have
you exhausted that route already?

You can alway put the work shop circuit in place of the dryer, and allow
the new owner the choice of which he wants to use it for. I can't see
anyone objecting to that.

I doubt you are getting 125a now; but that wouldn't matter unless you
happen to know you are right on the edge now and adding the new circuit
will put you over. At worst, you maybe couldn't use the table saw when
the oven and air conditioner are also in use; rarely a big deal.

This is a Westinghouse panel with BR style breakers in it. I'm not sure if
it's got "Feed Through" lugs or not (Can you describe them?). Basically
the
mains from the meter come in and land on the 100A breaker so I'm guessing I
don't have the lugs. Running a sub-panel would be ideal so now the question
is can I add the feed through lugs. The panel is in the garage now so a
sub-panel
would allow me to run the shop tools from it vs. re-routing for the dryer
etc...
Thanks for the help Bob!
Cheers,
jlc



What kind of panel is it? Does it have feed-thru lugs, or can you get
lugs for it? Put a little 100A subpanel right next to it to give you 8
more spaces.

If there are no feed lugs in the old panel, you can replace that 30A dryer
breaker with a 60A or 70A breaker to feed the subpanel and move the dryer
to the subpanel.

It's kind of hard to give specific advice without more info.

Bob

Ok,
I think I've got a solution thanks to the inputs. I've got one 2p breaker
for the dryer
that I could replace with a BQ230250 quad breaker. I could hook the dryer
up to the
30's and run the 50's over to a small subpanel where I could have a couple
of 20A/240V
breakers to supply the TS and Cyclone. Does this sound feasible to you
guys?
Thanks a million for the help!
jlc

"James "Cubby" Culbertson" wrote in message
...
Thanks Toller!
The box is made by Westinghouse. I did a quick look at Lowe's yesterday
and didn't
see any of the "quad breakers" as you describe. Lemme look around as
that might be
one solution. As for being on the edge, I'm far from it. The box has
240 circuits for the
dryer, stove, A/C, and water pump. I only use the water pump circuit
since we are gas on both
the dryer and stove. I'll definitely look into these quad breakers. The
current breakers
are the "BR" variety.
Cheers,
jlc

"toller" wrote in message
news
I can't comment on "replacing the guts". Seems like it ought to be okay,
but I don't actually know. A subpanel might make more sense anyhow.

You haven't said what your breaker box was, but they make quad breakers
for mine. That gives you two 240v circuits in the place of one. Have
you exhausted that route already?

You can alway put the work shop circuit in place of the dryer, and allow
the new owner the choice of which he wants to use it for. I can't see
anyone objecting to that.

I doubt you are getting 125a now; but that wouldn't matter unless you
happen to know you are right on the edge now and adding the new circuit
will put you over. At worst, you maybe couldn't use the table saw when
the oven and air conditioner are also in use; rarely a big deal.

James "Cubby" Culbertson wrote:
Ok,
I think I've got a solution thanks to the inputs. I've got one 2p breaker
for the dryer
that I could replace with a BQ230250 quad breaker. I could hook the dryer
up to the
30's and run the 50's over to a small subpanel where I could have a couple
of 20A/240V
breakers to supply the TS and Cyclone. Does this sound feasible to you
guys?
Thanks a million for the help!
jlc



That sounds feasible -- but expensive. I would check for the
availability of a feed lug kit first, or move the dryer circuit to the
new subpanel to free up 2 slots in the main panel.

If the main panel is surface mounted, you can attach the subpanel to its
(hopefully) side knockouts with a 2" rigid conduit nipple and a few lock
nuts; it makes a neat installation.

Bob

"James \"Cubby\" Culbertson" wrote on 04 Jan
2005:

What sort of permits etc might I
need (different places, different rules, just looking for a
general idea).

Where I live, and I suspect in most locations, a new circuit
requires a new permit. A subpanel certainly does.

--
Doug Boulter

To reply by e-mail, remove the obvious word from the e-mail address

That sounds feasible -- but expensive. I would check for the availability
of a feed lug kit first, or move the dryer circuit to the new subpanel to
free up 2 slots in the main panel.

If the main panel is surface mounted, you can attach the subpanel to its
(hopefully) side knockouts with a 2" rigid conduit nipple and a few lock
nuts; it makes a neat installation.

Bob

Unfortunately the panel is recessed into drywall but fortunately, I'll be
putting
the subpanel right next to it (with a stud in between) so it shouldn't be
too difficult.

As far as I can tell, the only added expense I would have for what I had in
mind
vs. the feed lug approach would be the quad breaker ($25 or so online).
I'd still have to purchase the
sub-panel and breakers for it anyway. With your solution I'd have to get
the feed
lug kit but not sure what they cost. Am I missing something here?

Thanks for the help Bob!
cc

If you are planning on putting the subpanel in your workshop (rather than
near the main panel) that would work fine. Other wise you could save $10 by
moving the dryer to the subpanel.

I actually had the BQC220230 in mind. That would give you one new 20a 240v
circuit without requiring a subpanel. (if I am reading the description
right anyhow.) Assuming you will never want more than a couple new
circuits, that is cheaper than a subpanel.

James "Cubby" Culbertson wrote:
That sounds feasible -- but expensive. I would check for the availability
of a feed lug kit first, or move the dryer circuit to the new subpanel to
free up 2 slots in the main panel.

If the main panel is surface mounted, you can attach the subpanel to its
(hopefully) side knockouts with a 2" rigid conduit nipple and a few lock
nuts; it makes a neat installation.

Bob


Unfortunately the panel is recessed into drywall but fortunately, I'll be
putting
the subpanel right next to it (with a stud in between) so it shouldn't be
too difficult.

As far as I can tell, the only added expense I would have for what I had in
mind
vs. the feed lug approach would be the quad breaker ($25 or so online).
I'd still have to purchase the
sub-panel and breakers for it anyway. With your solution I'd have to get
the feed
lug kit but not sure what they cost. Am I missing something here?

Thanks for the help Bob!
cc




Feed lug kit is cheap, but may not be available.

The only thing you might be missing is that if you move the dryer to the
new subpanel you can avoid using a weird quad breaker that might be hard
to replace some day. A 50A or 60A 2-pole BR breaker should cost less
than $10 and be easy to find. But then again, it may not be feasible to
move the dryer to the subpanel -- I can't tell looking at it from here ;-)

Bob

toller wrote:
If you are planning on putting the subpanel in your workshop (rather than
near the main panel) that would work fine. Other wise you could save $10 by
moving the dryer to the subpanel.

I actually had the BQC220230 in mind. That would give you one new 20a 240v
circuit without requiring a subpanel. (if I am reading the description
right anyhow.) Assuming you will never want more than a couple new
circuits, that is cheaper than a subpanel.



One more thing I just thought of; if it's a 3-wire dryer circuit, he
can't move it to a subpanel and be kosher. It would have to be 4 wires
if fed from a subpanel.

Bob

Where I live, and I suspect in most locations, a new circuit
requires a new permit. A subpanel certainly does.

I asked an electrical inspector (from whom I had just taken a home
electrical course) what was involved in getting a new transfer switch
inspected. He said that no one would get something as simple as a transfer
switch inspected; inspections were only for major projects. In the course
he said that technically changing a light switch requires an inspection, but
that it is never done. In order to affect your insurance (after a fire) the
insurance would have to prove that the uninspected work caused the fire, and
that the work was done negligently; a tall order.

Comments?

I fretted a bit about the transfer switch, as it was my biggest project to
date; but decided that the worst that could happen would be an open
connection. Even if a hot connection broke and caused an arcing short, it
was all in a metal box with no combustibles in the box; so what could
happen? Sure, you can come up with crazy things like an open neutral
combined with a short in an appliance, but realistically not much can
happen.

Comments?

Where I live, and I suspect in most locations, a new circuit
requires a new permit. A subpanel certainly does.

I asked an electrical inspector (from whom I had just taken a home
electrical course) what was involved in getting a new transfer switch
inspected. He said that no one would get something as simple as a transfer
switch inspected; inspections were only for major projects. In the course
he said that technically changing a light switch requires an inspection, but
that it is never done. In order to affect your insurance (after a fire) the
insurance would have to prove that the uninspected work caused the fire, and
that the work was done negligently; a tall order.

Comments?

I fretted a bit about the transfer switch, as it was my biggest project to
date; but decided that the worst that could happen would be an open
connection. Even if a hot connection broke and caused an arcing short, it
was all in a metal box with no combustibles in the box; so what could
happen? Sure, you can come up with crazy things like an open neutral
combined with a short in an appliance, but realistically not much can
happen.

Comments?

One more thing I just thought of; if it's a 3-wire dryer circuit, he can't
move it to a subpanel and be kosher. It would have to be 4 wires if fed
from a subpanel.

And that is because it is illegal to create a 3-wire dryer circuit and the
old one is grandfathered, or is it something to do with the subpanel itself?

If it the new circuit, he could move the waterpump. The ones I have seen
don't have neutrals.

toller wrote:
One more thing I just thought of; if it's a 3-wire dryer circuit,
he can't move it to a subpanel and be kosher. It would have to be
4 wires if fed from a subpanel.


And that is because it is illegal to create a 3-wire dryer circuit
and the old one is grandfathered, or is it something to do with the
subpanel itself?

It is something to do with the subpanel itself -- the subpanel will have
its neutral buss isolated from the chassis. AFAIK, dryer circuits have
always needed 4 wires if fed from a subpanel because of this. (That's
why you can't have a 3-wire 120/240 circuit in a mobile home.)

If it the new circuit, he could move the waterpump. The ones I have
seen don't have neutrals.


It's not the new circuit, but that's a great idea anyway. :-)

Best regards,
Bob

Thanks guys for all the help!

Just got back from Lowe's and here's what I have found. They carry a quad
30/40A switch for $12
and I could replace the current full size dryer breaker. From there, I
could run the 40A into a sub panel
which seems to run about $17 or so for a 6/12 circuit job.

I've just gotten the specs on the saw and it looks like they recommend a 20A
breaker for it (18A load). Couple that
with a 2hp 220V cyclone (10A draw) and it's looking more and more like I
will have to go the subpanel route. I
just can't remove the dryer circuit, replace with a 20/15 quad and keep the
dryer connection. So it's looking like
I'll probably go the route mentioned above (30/40A Quad and sub panel).
Moving circuits around would be a major
pain as the walls are fully finished. I looked for a feed through lug kit
and unfortunately, they didn't have any. I'm guessing
I could probably find a kit somewhere.

So it's looking like: 30/40A Quad ($12), Sub Panel ($17), Breakers for
subpanel ($15 or so), Ground bars, wire and misc. I might even
get through this for less than $75.

I really appreciate the help guys. My saw is arriving later this week and
I hate to get it and put it together only to sit until I get
power installed. I think now, I can get this done pretty quickly and for
not too much $$$.
Cheers,
cc

"zxcvbob" wrote in message
...
toller wrote:
One more thing I just thought of; if it's a 3-wire dryer circuit,
he can't move it to a subpanel and be kosher. It would have to be
4 wires if fed from a subpanel.


And that is because it is illegal to create a 3-wire dryer circuit
and the old one is grandfathered, or is it something to do with the
subpanel itself?

It is something to do with the subpanel itself -- the subpanel will have
its neutral buss isolated from the chassis. AFAIK, dryer circuits have
always needed 4 wires if fed from a subpanel because of this. (That's
why you can't have a 3-wire 120/240 circuit in a mobile home.)

If it the new circuit, he could move the waterpump. The ones I have seen
don't have neutrals.


It's not the new circuit, but that's a great idea anyway. :-)

Best regards,
Bob

On Mon, 3 Jan 2005 23:49:21 -0700, "James \"Cubby\" Culbertson"
wrote:

Hiya,
I've got a 10 year old house with a single electrical panel with a main
breaker of 100A. The
literature attached to the panel says it's rated for 125A. I'm not sure
what the feed from the electrical
company is....doesn't say on the meter unfortunately. Oh yeah, the panel
is full. Here's my dilemma:
I want to add some 220v to the garage to power a table saw and dust
collector. I'm not sure how to
approach this (an electrician will do the work but I want to be able to have
an idea how to go about this).
I have a 30A/220v/2 pole breaker that serves the dryer that isn't used. So
I could remove the existing wires
and run my receptacles from that but I'm not sure I like this idea.
Particularly if we want to sell the house
down the road. A second option, and I'm not sure this can be done code
wise, is removing the guts of the
can and replace with a higher service rated setup (ie. bus bars, lugs,
etc...). It looks like there is room for
a larger set up and the can even has pre-drilled holes to accept a larger
setup (of course I need to verify
the feed from the electric company is set up for a higher amperage). Is
this Code legal given the
sticker says "Max. of 125A" on it? Another option is to replace the entire
service which I really would rather
avoid. I tried the "replace the breakers with slim breakers" approach to
free up the space but unfortunately,
everything was already "slim". Any other ideas on how to approach this?
What sort of permits etc might I
need (different places, different rules, just looking for a general idea).

I am considering adding an outbuilding sometime down the road and was
thinking it might make sense to
scrap the current setup and put in a larger panel/can/etc.... and run the
outbuilding on a sub panel. Unfortunately,
I don't have the cashola to build that building right now and not sure I
ever will. So for now, I'm pretty
much looking for what will work vs. what makes more sense for down the road.

Anyway, thanks very much for any advice.
Cheers,
jlc


For what it's worth, I took the kitchen range 220 and used that to
install a subpanel in the shop. I could have taken the dryer hookup,
but the stove is a better idea as the gas stove "goes with the house."
Taking the clothes dryer hookup takes the option of having an electric
dryer, which could have an impact on the sale of the house. For your
case, you could use the dryer line for a subpanel then provide a 220v
for the dryer and hook it back up. I think this is the lowest cost
practical option. Replacing the entire Main panel is the best way per
NEC, but that may run some $.

On Tue, 04 Jan 2005 20:52:50 GMT, "John" wrote:


Where I live, and I suspect in most locations, a new circuit
requires a new permit. A subpanel certainly does.

I asked an electrical inspector (from whom I had just taken a home
electrical course) what was involved in getting a new transfer switch
inspected. He said that no one would get something as simple as a transfer
switch inspected; inspections were only for major projects. In the course
he said that technically changing a light switch requires an inspection, but
that it is never done. In order to affect your insurance (after a fire) the
insurance would have to prove that the uninspected work caused the fire, and
that the work was done negligently; a tall order.

Comments?

I'm surprised a transfer switch isn't an inspected item where you are,
here they are. Screwing one up can cause problems for line
technicians and others upstream.

But, as always, codes are interpreted and enforced locally, so relying
on anything anyone tells you in a forum like this is foolish.

Jeff

It's really not that expensive to upgrade to a new 200 Amp service.
You'll have all the power you want plus a new meter pan and a new 40
circuit panel. It cost me $1800. If you are thinking of expanding , you
should consider it.

Unfortunately, that's about $1700 more than I can afford!
I'll add my $75 subpanel and if/when the time comes to put up a shop, I'll
bite the
bullet then.
Cheers,
cc

"Mikepier" wrote in message
ups.com...
It's really not that expensive to upgrade to a new 200 Amp service.
You'll have all the power you want plus a new meter pan and a new 40
circuit panel. It cost me $1800. If you are thinking of expanding , you
should consider it.

Hiya Folks,
Just wanted to say thank you to everyone for their comments. After giving
it some thought
I just went ahead and did the job myself. So I now have a small subpanel
feeding my new tablesaw
and my cyclone (when I finish building it!). There were no sparks
(kidding!) and it seems to work
fine.

Interesting thing though. I called my municipality about
permits/inspections etc.... and they still haven't
called me back. I'm pretty confident my install is up to code so when they
do finally get with me,
I hope it's a quick sign-off.

Thanks again folks for all the help!

Cheers,
cc