On Mon, 07 Mar 2016 17:19:00 -0600, Mr Macaw wrote:


Ah, this explains how they happen - warmer air higher up. But what I
want to know is, surely if the warm air is moving to the right, then
everything will melt soon anyway? And why do they happen in America and
not the UK?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_st...on_by_type.png

The freezing rain will often be accompanied by a cold front that brings
in
snow and much cooler weather. The storm I linked to earlier brought about
six or eight inches of snow if I recall correctly.
The snow will keep things cooler just because it reflects sunlight. I
remember
a snow that ended about 50 miles west of me. It was consistently about
10º F.
cooler there until the snow melted.

--
Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

On Monday, March 7, 2016 at 5:19:08 PM UTC-6, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Mon, 07 Mar 2016 04:44:43 -0000, Uncle Monster wrote:

On Saturday, March 5, 2016 at 3:12:57 PM UTC-6, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Sat, 05 Mar 2016 20:46:36 -0000, DerbyDad03 wrote:

On Saturday, March 5, 2016 at 2:50:39 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sat, 05 Mar 2016 17:52:43 -0000, "Mr Macaw" wrote:

240V and 0V. Neutral and ground are both connected to the 0V line, which is an earth spike at the 11kV to 240V substation (transformer) across the road.

Over here in the colonies we take that 240v and center tap the
transformer so both ungrounded legs are 120v above ground. That still
gives us the ability to use 240v equipment but most ends up being
120v. I suppose we can blame Thomas Edison for that. He started a fear
campaign against Nick Tesla over AC current, Edison wanted DC and he
said AC was more deadly, to the point of electrocuting an elephant
along with more than a few condemned prisoners ... all with AC.
When he lost the war, the deadly part still stuck and the belief was
that 120 would be safer, still leaving the option of having 240v
equipment.

It is interesting that you only have 11kva transformers. Typically
here, a single home would be on a 25kva, the smallest generally
available. Two houses get a 37 and 3 houses would get a 50.
That is about the max on a single transformer. Distribution will be
13kv to ground (3 p wye)

This is a 50
http://gfretwell.com/electrical/50%2...ransformer.jpg
This is the typical installation
http://gfretwell.com/electrical/transformer.jpg

You can see 2 of the 3 drops going off to the houses

And those 50's blow up quite spectacularly during ice storms.

What is an "ice storm"? Is that the same as a "hail storm"? Our transformers never seem to break.

5 days without power. Gave me the chance to start the aquarium over
from scratch. :-(

Surely you could have found enough juice to heat an aquarium?
--

Here in The U.S. even down South, on some occasions in the winter if the the temperature is just right and the planets are in alignment, we will have a winter rain storm where the rain freezes and builds up on the power lines and trees. The weight of the ice can cause power lines to snap or make a tree fall on a power line and bring it down. Such weather has come to be called an "Ice Storm". When I was a young lad, I resided in North Alabamastan where one winter, there was a horrendous ice storm that knocked out power and took down a lot of trees over a wide area. It's really the only extremely bad ice storm I can remember and it's from the middle of the last century. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Ice Monster

Ah, this explains how they happen - warmer air higher up. But what I want to know is, surely if the warm air is moving to the right, then everything will melt soon anyway? And why do they happen in America and not the UK?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_st...on_by_type.png
--

I'm in Alabamastan where warm air from The Gulf of Mexico collides with cold air from Canada. This makes for some interesting weather patterns. The Gulf is a thermal engine that runs a lot of weather systems in The Northern Hemisphere. A warm current from The Gulf even flows up and across The Atlantic and winds up around The UK. The thing about the weather here in Alabama is that if you don't like it, stick around a little while and it will change. Sunday the very early morning temperature here was 40 degrees Fahrenheit and Monday afternoon, the temperature was 72 degrees Fahrenheit. Now at 8:30pm Monday night, it's 66 degrees Fahrenheit. We get wild temperature swings here in The South at different times of the year. o_O

[8~{} Uncle Southern Monster

On Mon, 7 Mar 2016 18:27:49 -0800 (PST), Uncle Monster
wrote:

On Monday, March 7, 2016 at 5:19:08 PM UTC-6, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Mon, 07 Mar 2016 04:44:43 -0000, Uncle Monster wrote:

On Saturday, March 5, 2016 at 3:12:57 PM UTC-6, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Sat, 05 Mar 2016 20:46:36 -0000, DerbyDad03 wrote:

On Saturday, March 5, 2016 at 2:50:39 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sat, 05 Mar 2016 17:52:43 -0000, "Mr Macaw" wrote:

240V and 0V. Neutral and ground are both connected to the 0V line, which is an earth spike at the 11kV to 240V substation (transformer) across the road.

Over here in the colonies we take that 240v and center tap the
transformer so both ungrounded legs are 120v above ground. That still
gives us the ability to use 240v equipment but most ends up being
120v. I suppose we can blame Thomas Edison for that. He started a fear
campaign against Nick Tesla over AC current, Edison wanted DC and he
said AC was more deadly, to the point of electrocuting an elephant
along with more than a few condemned prisoners ... all with AC.
When he lost the war, the deadly part still stuck and the belief was
that 120 would be safer, still leaving the option of having 240v
equipment.

It is interesting that you only have 11kva transformers. Typically
here, a single home would be on a 25kva, the smallest generally
available. Two houses get a 37 and 3 houses would get a 50.
That is about the max on a single transformer. Distribution will be
13kv to ground (3 p wye)

This is a 50
http://gfretwell.com/electrical/50%2...ransformer.jpg
This is the typical installation
http://gfretwell.com/electrical/transformer.jpg

You can see 2 of the 3 drops going off to the houses

And those 50's blow up quite spectacularly during ice storms.

What is an "ice storm"? Is that the same as a "hail storm"? Our transformers never seem to break.

5 days without power. Gave me the chance to start the aquarium over
from scratch. :-(

Surely you could have found enough juice to heat an aquarium?
--

Here in The U.S. even down South, on some occasions in the winter if the the temperature is just right and the planets are in alignment, we will have a winter rain storm where the rain freezes and builds up on the power lines and trees. The weight of the ice can cause power lines to snap or make a tree fall on a power line and bring it down. Such weather has come to be called an "Ice Storm". When I was a young lad, I resided in North Alabamastan where one winter, there was a horrendous ice storm that knocked out power and took down a lot of trees over a wide area. It's really the only extremely bad ice storm I can remember and it's from the middle of the last century. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Ice Monster

Ah, this explains how they happen - warmer air higher up. But what I want to know is, surely if the warm air is moving to the right, then everything will melt soon anyway? And why do they happen in America and not the UK?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_st...on_by_type.png
--

I'm in Alabamastan where warm air from The Gulf of Mexico collides with cold air from Canada. This makes for some interesting weather patterns. The Gulf is a thermal engine that runs a lot of weather systems in The Northern Hemisphere. A warm current from The Gulf even flows up and across The Atlantic and winds up around The UK. The thing about the weather here in Alabama is that if you don't like it, stick around a little while and it will change. Sunday the very early morning temperature here was 40 degrees Fahrenheit and Monday afternoon, the temperature was 72 degrees Fahrenheit. Now at 8:30pm Monday night, it's 66 degrees Fahrenheit. We get wild temperature swings here in The South at different times of the year. o_O

[8~{} Uncle Southern Monster
Nothing like here between the lakes in Ontario ----20C last week,
it'll be +20 on Thursday, like it was a couple weeks ago.
A couple years ago it went from "25 or 26C back down to -15 or so
within a week in March.

According to Yahoo answers:

The greatest temperature change in 24 hours occurred in Loma, MT. on
January 15, 1972. The temperature rose exactly 103 degrees, from -54
degrees Fahrenheit to 49 degrees. This is the world record for a 24¡Xhour
temperature change.

Other Extreme Temperature Changes

In 24 hours:
100¢XF, Browing, MT, Jan 23¡V24, 1916, from 44¢XF to ¡V56¢XF.

In 12 hours:
84¢XF, Fairfield, MT, Dec 24, 1924, from 63¢XF at noon to ¡V21¢XF at midnight.

In 2 hours:
62¢XF, Rapid City, SD, Jan 12, 1911, from 49¢XF at 6 AM to ¡V13¢XF at 8 AM

In 27 minutes:
58¢XF, Spearfish, SD, Jan 22, 1943, from 54¢XF at 9 AM to ¡V4¢XF at 9:27 AM

In 15 minutes:
47¢XF, Rapid City, SD, Jan 10, 1911, from 55¢XF at 7 AM to 8¢XF at 7:15 AM

--
http://mduffy.x10host.com/index.htm

On Mon, 7 Mar 2016 22:16:31 -0500, Mike Duffy
wrote:

According to Yahoo answers:

The greatest temperature change in 24 hours occurred in Loma, MT. on
January 15, 1972. The temperature rose exactly 103 degrees, from -54
degrees Fahrenheit to 49 degrees. This is the world record for a 24¡Xhour
temperature change.

Other Extreme Temperature Changes

In 24 hours:
100¢XF, Browing, MT, Jan 23¡V24, 1916, from 44¢XF to ¡V56¢XF.

In 12 hours:
84¢XF, Fairfield, MT, Dec 24, 1924, from 63¢XF at noon to ¡V21¢XF at midnight.

In 2 hours:
62¢XF, Rapid City, SD, Jan 12, 1911, from 49¢XF at 6 AM to ¡V13¢XF at 8 AM

In 27 minutes:
58¢XF, Spearfish, SD, Jan 22, 1943, from 54¢XF at 9 AM to ¡V4¢XF at 9:27 AM

In 15 minutes:
47¢XF, Rapid City, SD, Jan 10, 1911, from 55¢XF at 7 AM to 8¢XF at 7:15 AM
Back in Jan '73 in Banff it was -40F in the morning and +40F by
shortly after noon - great Chinook!!

On Mon, 07 Mar 2016 23:19:00 -0000, "Mr Macaw" wrote:

Ah, this explains how they happen - warmer air higher up. But what I want to know is, surely if the warm air is moving to the right, then everything will melt soon anyway? And why do they happen in America and not the UK?

You may just not have the right combination of the jet stream, warmer
water bodies and cold fronts.. I suspect that wedge of warm air that
causes this ice thing in Maryland comes from the Chesapeake bay. The
moisture comes in as snow west of DC, east of DC it is sleet and
freezing rain.
When Southern Md gets it's big snows, the weather is coming up from
the south because the jet stream has driven way down, enough to make
it cold in Florida and that train comes up the coast like a hurricane
overwhelming warmer water in the bay. They might even get thunder with
it. I did it for 38 years and I am glad to be out

On Sun, 06 Mar 2016 16:40:54 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 10:49:55 AM UTC-5, Mr Macaw wrote:


I can put my dryer anywhere I want in the house. I'd find it very annoying to have to rewire the house when I want to move it.


Where would you want to put it, the living room?

A different part of the kitchen / utility room / garage .....

Here we generally
have an area that set up for the washer, eg water faucets to screw
the hoses onto, drain for it, and then the dryer goes right next
to it, with a 240V receptacle provided.

The dryer needs no water supply, so doesn't have to be there. For example I've got the washing machine and dishwasher in the kitchen near the sink, so they take the same water, but there's no room for a dryer aswell. The cooker and fridge are also in the same area for convenience when cooking.

The dryers are also vented
outside, so if you can move yours around, what do they do with the
venting?

Most dryers have a condenser nowadays, if they don't you can fit one (simply a small tub of water the hot air goes through).

same as for the electric stoves and ovens.

Yes a stove has its own circuit here - 240V 30A.

Irons are 120 volts,

Ours take long enough to heat up, yours must take all day.

Takes just a few minutes. Not a problem really. While it's warming
up there is usually something else that can be done at the same time,
right there.

Bad idea, you forget the iron is on!

but not many use them now.

Why would you stop using irons?

Permanent press clothes and taking things like dress shirts to the cleaners.

What is a permanent press clothe?

Coffee pots, microwaves, and toasters and other plug in devices for the
kitchen are usually 120 volts.Problem is that unless several circuits are
ran to the kitchen you can only do one or two things at a time.

What amperage are your outlet circuits? We tend to have 240V 30A for the whole house on one loop. So you can run two or three big things without overloading, never have to think about it.

We have multiple 15A or 20A 120V circuits for receptacles and/or lights.
Many circuits have both on them. How many circuits depends on the size
of the house. But having 12 to 20 of them isn't unusual.

That's a lot of wiring.

--
Testicle (n.), a humorous question on an exam.

On Sun, 06 Mar 2016 16:55:32 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 11:41:06 AM UTC-5, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Sun, 06 Mar 2016 16:32:19 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 10:18:16 AM UTC-5, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Sun, 06 Mar 2016 05:04:22 -0000, wrote:

Why are more outlets "inconvenient"?

Because of the two different types. If I want to plug in a hoover, I use any outlet. You have to find one of the right voltage. So to make it as likely to have one, you need twice as many outlets.

All the common everyday appliances, eg microwave, electric kettle, lamps, vacuums, are 120V here and those are the only outlets distributed around the
house.

So your vacuum must have quite a beefy cord on it. Our vacuums typically use 5 amps, the the flex is quite flexible.


They don't seem beefy to me. I don't see why a small electric motor at 240V
would use 5 amps.

They just do. They're rated at around a kW. Decent ones more than that. We haven't used pathetic little 350W motors for about 40 years.

A 1 hp motor uses about 7. Even my shop type
vac has a cord that I'd say is about the size of a pencil.

I had a shopvac, it was at least a kW.

240V is used for electric dryers and ovens and it's about the only
place you'd find a 240V receptacle in a typical house. Some might have
it for some shop type gear, in their basement, garage etc too.

In fact our code requires that you are pretty much never more than 6
feet from a receptacle, not crossing a door or other opening.

Why on earth would convenience be in your code? I thought "code" was for safety?

That is part of safety. Having sufficient receptacles within a given
distance means that people are less likely to run extension cords which
are a known hazard, for example.

I wasn't aware America was over the top on safety. An extension cord is not a hazard, what do you think it's going to do? Catch fire for no reason?

They are actually the source of a lot of fires. People put them under
carpets for example, where they get rubbed, frayed.

Not along the edge they don't, and who would have a lump across the middle of their room?

Or they take a minimal gauge cord and plug 6 things into it.

Never heard of a fuse?

Or they string together
several short ones, that aren't in the greatest shape, etc. Plus
they are a trip hazard. Plugging a hot plate or similar in on an
extension, you could trip on the extension and have a hot pot of
water land on you.

Don't people watch where they're going anymore? When did this silly phrase "trip hazard" get invented? If you're going to claim to have evolved to walk on two feet, you need to watch where they go.

240 equipment is generally going to be fixed in place anyway.

I will say that in my travels I was impressed with the 240v tea
kettle, if you really make that much tea.

So what are your kettles? 110 volts and 1.5kW? That would take an age to boil. Or do they have a 30 amp flex?

~1.5KW is what they are. I would agree, 240V for that would be real
sweet. Still the 120V electric kettle can heat it faster than using
the range and more efficiently.

I find the 3kW one too slow if it's full.

I can see that. The 120V one here I used to heat about a liter of
water to make coffee or tea. If I need more water than that, I do
it on the stove. I agree having a 240V electric kettle would be a
very handy thing. I never thought about it until you brought it up.
Maybe we can get something started here, put in 240V receptacles for
new kitchens. I'd like it.

Nothing to stop you putting in 240V sockets in your kitchen, then buying a UK kettle from Ebay etc.

What about an iron? A portable fan-heater or convector heater? There are loads of appliances which need a lot of power that you may wish to move about.

They too are limited to ~1500W. There are some that require a 20A
circuit, have a different plug, but those are the exception, not typical.

If we're not in the middle of nowhere, heating, hot water, and cooking is done by gas (it's 3 times cheaper), so we don't use that much electricity.

Same here. If nat gas is available, it's by far the most economical.
Electric is usually most expensive. We've found a tremendous amount of
new nat gas in the last decade or so.

I think ours is all from the North Sea, which being in Scotland I'm right next to.

Showers, washing machines, and dishwashers tend to heat their own water, so those and a tumble dryer (our weather is very damp) are about the only things that wil use much.

Here shower and washing machine, in vast majority of cases, don't
heat their own water. Electric dryers do and are on a 240V receptacle.

Do you still have those washing machines like I saw on a TV show once, where the detergent is dispensed automatically fro a big tank above it?

I've never seen those. Trend now is to more front loaders. There the
detergent goes into a reservoir at the top of the machine, but I think
it's loaded for each use.

Actually, the only program I can remember it on was "Home Improvement", so maybe it was his invention!

--
Seen in a health food sto
Shoplifters will be beaten over the head with an organic carrot.

On Sun, 06 Mar 2016 17:11:21 -0000, Dean Hoffman wrote:

On Sun, 06 Mar 2016 09:31:58 -0600, Mr Macaw wrote:


That's very odd and seems to be against the laws of physics. If it's
below freezing on the branches, how come it's above freezing higher up
(where you'd expect it to be colder) causing rain and not hail?

The only time we get too much weight on branches is in colder parts
(North Scotland) where SNOW falls on things. Snow has the ability to
stick of course, and builds up.

Some pictures here
http://nlcs1.nlc.state.ne.us/docs/pilot/pubs/storm1976.pdf of damage from
an ice storm in Nebraska back in 1976. Nebraska is a bit north of
the center of the continental U.S.

Can't get that to load in Opera or IE.

The power companies were using helicopters to haul the towers to the
fields and set them in place. The towers were built at old WWII
airfields. The storm hit in the spring so the fields were thawing
and there was the usual spring moisture to contend with.

--
Mary's lamb had foot and mouth.
The vet he came and shot it.
But Mary's Dad had shagged it twice.
And now her Mum has got it.

On Sun, 06 Mar 2016 17:07:26 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 11:49:03 AM UTC-5, Mr Macaw wrote:


Permanent press? What is that? Like a big trouser press thing?


They must have that in the UK too. It's where the fabric is made so
that it holds it shape and doesn't need to be pressed after washing.
Some is less than perfect though. So, it might require some pressing
depending on how fussy you are. Things that really need to be pressed,
eg dress shirts, I just take to the cleaners.

Maybe if I shopped somewhere more upmarket, but I buy my clothes form a supermarket. But I've never heard anyone mention "permanent press" to me or that they don't iron. I have heard of the phrase "permanent press", but I thought it was something fancy for a suit.

I don't actually iron myself, I just leave the creases in :-) Sometimes people make comment.

What amperage are your outlet circuits? We tend to have 240V 30A for the
whole house on one loop. So you can run two or three big things without
overloading, never have to think about it.

Most houses are wired with 120 volt and 15 amp circuits. One good thing
about it is that if a breaker does trip it only effects the outlets of one
room. There are usually seperate 120 volt circuits for the refrigerator,
washing machine and a few other high current items that are not often moved
around.

So you can't use two 15 amp appliances in one room? That would be very annoying.

You can if some of the receptacles are on different circuits, which they
may be. Very common to have them split up that way. But I can't recall
when I've ever had two 15A appliances in one room, except the kitchen.
Kitchens in current code have to have at least two 20A circuits.

Is there a colour code on the socket so you know which ones to use?

I saw once a picture of double outlet for the USA, where the top one was 0v and 120v and the bottom one was 0v and -120v. So you could get 30 amps total there. I guess you could then even have a 240v outlet in the middle.

I never saw one of those.

It was pointed out to me by an American in another newsgroup, who claimed that all houses were like that.

Just looking and my bill shows 2,039 KWH for this past month. That is
for
all electric and I have a well for water. Been using the portable heater
for
an unheated room in the basement some this winter. The summer bill is
not
usuall too much less due to AC. Lots less in months we do not heat or
cool.
The heat is by a heat pump.

The code is for safety. Most items come with about 6 feet of cord, so
outlets are usually every 6 feet of wall space by the code. Several
circuits for the kitchen area.

So to stop you having wires to trip over? That's going way too far with
safety, I thought the UK was bad. The only rules we have for outlets is
when installed near water, like in the bathroom. For some reason the
rules are tighter than the kitchen, which has just as much water!

But then most of us do our own electrical work and just ignore all that
**** anyway. My house, I'll have an outlet in the bathroom if I want. If
I didn't, I'd only run an extension cord in there anyway.

My house has 2 outlets in the bathroom connected to a GFCI breaker in the
breaker box.

The house was built around 1980 and I think the code at that time required
the GFCI for bathroom and outside recepticals.

My house has fuses. I detest breakers as they trip unnecessarily.

Decades of experience with breakers here, in multiple properties,
businesses, etc. No problem with them tripping unnecessarily. Once
in a blue moon one can go bad for sure, but I can't ever recall that
happening to me.

It's usually the earth leakage ones that trip.

And the current limiting ones can trip in an office if you have 20 computers connected up. It's impossible to plug them all in at once, due to the inrush current of the power supplies.

There is a large book for the National Electric Code. It is not mandantory
for the different states, but most areas go by it or something very close to
it. From what I understand there are lots of differentrules for wiring in
the country. Some areas you have to have a licensed electrician to do any
wiring.

If it's in your own house, who is going to know? It's nobody's business but yours anyway!

Until you go to sell it, the buyer has it inspected, and the inspector
finds a bunch of violations.

Then sell to a less fussy buyer. I never had my house inspected when I moved here. I really don't care for petty rules.

There is also the theoretical possibility
of the case of a fire, and if the fire resulted from some obvious hack
job that they could show you did, without a permit, the insurance company
might deny the claim. Or even worse, if the house burned down with your
neighbors kid killed during a sleep-over, you could be in deep doo doo too.

Why worry about the unlikely? Do you also have a nuclear fallout shelter?

Here, we're not supposed to do our own gas plumbing, but I ignore that too. It's no more difficult than water plumbing.

As long as you do it right, all is good.

Easy enough to detect a leak, by bubbles on some soapy water where you made the joint, or by a smell afterwards. Those new plastic fittings are brilliant, no tools needed, no chance of a leak.

Where I live you can do you own wiwring,but are expected for it to
meet the code. If you wire for someone as a job then you have to be
licensed and have it inspected.

I think they're trying to do that here. At the moment, you can get a certification to be an electrician, but it's not mandatory, and it's up to the customer if they choose someone with one or not (with are more expensive).

Wow, that's interesting. Here you can do it yourself on your own house.
But I can't do it legally for a friend on their house.

Seriously?!? Between FRIENDS?!?! That's beyond a joke.

Nor can I do it
if it's a rental property I own.

You can here, but rentals are required to have a periodical check, can't remember how often. It's just simple tests, for example my neighbour has two rentals and he was told one of the lights wasn't earthed. On the bloody ceiling! Now the story goes it was a light fitting which you couldn't earth, as a lot of it was plastic. But the stupid testing guy insisted he got an earth pass on his equipment. My neighbour rigged up a crocodile clip to earth the part of the lamp he was testing, and the meter said "pass". He got the certificate.

Funny, we always think that you tend
to have more regulations over there.

No, your country is worse. You have more lawyers. Unfortunately we are beginning to copy you. The only place worse thn the USA ius Australia. You can be prosecuted for cycling without a helmet, or walking along the wrong side of a country road!

--
Give a person a fish and you feed them for a day. Teach a person to use the Internet and they won't bother you for weeks, months, maybe years.

On Sun, 06 Mar 2016 17:59:56 -0000, Stormin Mormon wrote:

On 3/6/2016 12:07 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 11:49:03 AM UTC-5, Mr Macaw wrote:

Permanent press? What is that? Like a big trouser press thing?

They must have that in the UK too. It's where the fabric is made so
that it holds it shape and doesn't need to be pressed after washing.
Some is less than perfect though. So, it might require some pressing
depending on how fussy you are. Things that really need to be pressed,
eg dress shirts, I just take to the cleaners.

Should you move the ground leg to the ground bar
if the panel is permanant press?

Putting your electrical panel into a washer while it's live is considered a bad idea.

--
Sexy Sharon's sister saw saucy Sally swiftly suck seventy six soldiers sons.

On Tue, 08 Mar 2016 19:45:27 -0000, "Mr Macaw" wrote:


They don't seem beefy to me. I don't see why a small electric motor at 240V
would use 5 amps.

They just do. They're rated at around a kW. Decent ones more than that. We haven't used pathetic little 350W motors for about 40 years.

The typical vacuum here is rated at 2HP with some kind of phony rating
system but they usually do pull 10a or so. That makes it comparable to
what you are talking about. Some actually approach that maximum 1440w
that you can legally put on a 15a circuit.
Since these things are manufactured for an international market I bet
they perform about the same. They do make special cords that are
"vacuum rated" and I think that is basically that they use higher temp
insulation rating since it is still a pretty small cord. They do run
warm to the touch.

A 1 hp motor uses about 7. Even my shop type
vac has a cord that I'd say is about the size of a pencil.

I had a shopvac, it was at least a kW.

I have had a number of shop vacs and, side by side, there are plenty
of canister vacs used inside the home that are stronger and blow
harder than the 2 shop vacs I have (what I was testing). That is the
same thing though, since this is still just an air pump.
That shop vac is only special because of the bigger hopper and that
some can handle a bit of water.


Or they take a minimal gauge cord and plug 6 things into it.

Never heard of a fuse?
They do not fuse plugs here, except for cheap asian christmas lights
with wire that is less than a mm (20 ga)

Or they string together
several short ones, that aren't in the greatest shape, etc. Plus
they are a trip hazard. Plugging a hot plate or similar in on an
extension, you could trip on the extension and have a hot pot of
water land on you.

Don't people watch where they're going anymore? When did this silly phrase "trip hazard" get invented? If you're going to claim to have evolved to walk on two feet, you need to watch where they go.

This is becoming a nanny state. You can' do anything without bumping
into laws about helmets, seat belts, guard rails etc. A damned ladder
has to have about 15 labels warning of bad things that happen if you
actually climb up it.

240 equipment is generally going to be fixed in place anyway.

I will say that in my travels I was impressed with the 240v tea
kettle, if you really make that much tea.

So what are your kettles? 110 volts and 1.5kW? That would take an age to boil. Or do they have a 30 amp flex?

~1.5KW is what they are. I would agree, 240V for that would be real
sweet. Still the 120V electric kettle can heat it faster than using
the range and more efficiently.

I find the 3kW one too slow if it's full.

I can see that. The 120V one here I used to heat about a liter of
water to make coffee or tea. If I need more water than that, I do
it on the stove. I agree having a 240V electric kettle would be a
very handy thing. I never thought about it until you brought it up.
Maybe we can get something started here, put in 240V receptacles for
new kitchens. I'd like it.

Nothing to stop you putting in 240V sockets in your kitchen, then buying a UK kettle from Ebay etc.


Absolutely true. I admit, if I was actually boiling that much water, I
would do it. We can buy a duplex outlet that has 240 and 120 in the
same device and the 240 side would not even have to be GFCI (RCD).
Since it is required to have two 120v circuits serving the counter top
it would be trivial to bring that from both sides of the center tap
with a neutral and split it right there for your two required 120v
circuits.
I was impressed by the 240v kettles in New Zealand but once I got
home, I realized, we don't drink tea. Coffee makers work fine on 120
and most do not even approach the 1440w available. A drip maker can
just "drip" so fast without overloading the filter pan. Even the big
commercial units are still 120v and commercial kitchens always have
240 available.

I guess the bottom line is this side of the pond is 120v and it is
going to stay that way. We seem to get by.

OK now explain why you drive on the wrong side of the road ;-)

On Tuesday, March 8, 2016 at 3:17:39 PM UTC-5, wrote:

....snip...

Coffee makers work fine on 120
and most do not even approach the 1440w available. A drip maker can
just "drip" so fast without overloading the filter pan.

....snip...

It's less about overloading the filter pan and more about "contact time".

If the water drips through too fast, the taste will be affected. Unfortunately,
with most home drip systems, you are at the mercy of the machine's drip rate.

SWMBO and I bought a $300 Breville unit for each other as a Christmas gift.
You can adjust the brew strength by adjusting the contact time. It makes a
really great cup of coffee, but it has too many features and too many parts
to clean to be convenient for everyday use. We ended up going back to our
basic drip machine, sacrificing some flavor for ease of use.

Stolen without permission from:

http://www.ncausa.org/About-Coffee/How-to-Brew-Coffee

Brewing Time

The amount of time that the water is in contact with the coffee grounds is
another important flavor factor.

In a drip system, the contact time should be approximately 5 minutes. If you
are making your coffee using a plunger pot, the contact time should be 2-4
minutes. Espresso has an especially brief brew time -- the coffee is in contact
with the water for only 20-30 seconds.

If you're not happy with the taste, it's possible that you're either over-
extracting (the brew time is too long) or under-extracting (the brew time is
too short). Experiment with the contact time until the taste suits you
perfectly.

On Tue, 08 Mar 2016 20:02:29 -0000, "Mr Macaw" wrote:


I saw once a picture of double outlet for the USA, where the top one was 0v and 120v and the bottom one was 0v and -120v. So you could get 30 amps total there. I guess you could then even have a 240v outlet in the middle.

I never saw one of those.

This is probably what they mean
http://tinyurl.com/jbqkpnh

It is a NEMA 5-15p and 6-15p on the same yoke

There is also the theoretical possibility
of the case of a fire, and if the fire resulted from some obvious hack
job that they could show you did, without a permit, the insurance company
might deny the claim. Or even worse, if the house burned down with your
neighbors kid killed during a sleep-over, you could be in deep doo doo too.

Why worry about the unlikely? Do you also have a nuclear fallout shelter?

This is really getting easier for home inspectors and insurance
companies since these are public records on the county web site in
more places these days.



Funny, we always think that you tend
to have more regulations over there.

No, your country is worse. You have more lawyers. Unfortunately we are beginning to copy you. The only place worse thn the USA ius Australia. You can be prosecuted for cycling without a helmet, or walking along the wrong side of a country road!

I noticed the Qiwis are pretty well regulated too, until they aren't.
It is always strange what countries think are too dangerous for the
populace and what isn't.

On Monday, March 7, 2016 at 9:00:48 PM UTC-6, wrote:
On Mon, 7 Mar 2016 18:27:49 -0800 (PST), Uncle Monster
wrote:

On Monday, March 7, 2016 at 5:19:08 PM UTC-6, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Mon, 07 Mar 2016 04:44:43 -0000, Uncle Monster wrote:

On Saturday, March 5, 2016 at 3:12:57 PM UTC-6, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Sat, 05 Mar 2016 20:46:36 -0000, DerbyDad03 wrote:

On Saturday, March 5, 2016 at 2:50:39 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sat, 05 Mar 2016 17:52:43 -0000, "Mr Macaw" wrote:

240V and 0V. Neutral and ground are both connected to the 0V line, which is an earth spike at the 11kV to 240V substation (transformer) across the road.

Over here in the colonies we take that 240v and center tap the
transformer so both ungrounded legs are 120v above ground. That still
gives us the ability to use 240v equipment but most ends up being
120v. I suppose we can blame Thomas Edison for that. He started a fear
campaign against Nick Tesla over AC current, Edison wanted DC and he
said AC was more deadly, to the point of electrocuting an elephant
along with more than a few condemned prisoners ... all with AC.
When he lost the war, the deadly part still stuck and the belief was
that 120 would be safer, still leaving the option of having 240v
equipment.

It is interesting that you only have 11kva transformers. Typically
here, a single home would be on a 25kva, the smallest generally
available. Two houses get a 37 and 3 houses would get a 50.
That is about the max on a single transformer. Distribution will be
13kv to ground (3 p wye)

This is a 50
http://gfretwell.com/electrical/50%2...ransformer.jpg
This is the typical installation
http://gfretwell.com/electrical/transformer.jpg

You can see 2 of the 3 drops going off to the houses

And those 50's blow up quite spectacularly during ice storms.

What is an "ice storm"? Is that the same as a "hail storm"? Our transformers never seem to break.

5 days without power. Gave me the chance to start the aquarium over
from scratch. :-(

Surely you could have found enough juice to heat an aquarium?
--

Here in The U.S. even down South, on some occasions in the winter if the the temperature is just right and the planets are in alignment, we will have a winter rain storm where the rain freezes and builds up on the power lines and trees. The weight of the ice can cause power lines to snap or make a tree fall on a power line and bring it down. Such weather has come to be called an "Ice Storm". When I was a young lad, I resided in North Alabamastan where one winter, there was a horrendous ice storm that knocked out power and took down a lot of trees over a wide area. It's really the only extremely bad ice storm I can remember and it's from the middle of the last century. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Ice Monster

Ah, this explains how they happen - warmer air higher up. But what I want to know is, surely if the warm air is moving to the right, then everything will melt soon anyway? And why do they happen in America and not the UK?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_st...on_by_type.png
--

I'm in Alabamastan where warm air from The Gulf of Mexico collides with cold air from Canada. This makes for some interesting weather patterns. The Gulf is a thermal engine that runs a lot of weather systems in The Northern Hemisphere. A warm current from The Gulf even flows up and across The Atlantic and winds up around The UK. The thing about the weather here in Alabama is that if you don't like it, stick around a little while and it will change. Sunday the very early morning temperature here was 40 degrees Fahrenheit and Monday afternoon, the temperature was 72 degrees Fahrenheit. Now at 8:30pm Monday night, it's 66 degrees Fahrenheit. We get wild temperature swings here in The South at different times of the year. o_O

[8~{} Uncle Southern Monster
Nothing like here between the lakes in Ontario ----20C last week,
it'll be +20 on Thursday, like it was a couple weeks ago.
A couple years ago it went from "25 or 26C back down to -15 or so
within a week in March.

Usually our weather around here is pretty stable but it seems like climate chaos at certain times of the year especially during the change of seasons. One day you need a coat and the next you're wearing shorts and a T shirt. In the middle of March 1993 we had a blizzard that dropped 12 to 20 inches of snow over Alabamastan. If you look at the weather maps, you can see how a tongue of tropical moisture comes up from The Gulf of Mexico and dumps rain on the South. Right now neighboring states are getting hammered and the rain was splitting my state in two a few days ago. It's 74F right now and it's forecast to be 78F tomorrow. It's actually what Spring is supposed to be like around here. I'm sure it will be different next year. O_o

http://www.accuweather.com/en/weathe...-week/55871162

http://tinyurl.com/htqvfrs

http://www.srh.noaa.gov/bmx/?n=winter_blizzardof1993

[8~{} Uncle Snow Monster

On Monday, March 7, 2016 at 9:16:09 PM UTC-6, Mike Duffy wrote:
According to Yahoo answers:

The greatest temperature change in 24 hours occurred in Loma, MT. on
January 15, 1972. The temperature rose exactly 103 degrees, from -54
degrees Fahrenheit to 49 degrees. This is the world record for a 24--hour
temperature change.

Other Extreme Temperature Changes

In 24 hours:
100°F, Browing, MT, Jan 23-24, 1916, from 44°F to -56°F.

In 12 hours:
84°F, Fairfield, MT, Dec 24, 1924, from 63°F at noon to -21°F at midnight.

In 2 hours:
62°F, Rapid City, SD, Jan 12, 1911, from 49°F at 6 AM to -13°F at 8 AM

In 27 minutes:
58°F, Spearfish, SD, Jan 22, 1943, from 54°F at 9 AM to -4°F at 9:27 AM

In 15 minutes:
47°F, Rapid City, SD, Jan 10, 1911, from 55°F at 7 AM to 8°F at 7:15 AM
--
http://mduffy.x10host.com/index.htm

HOLY POOP! O_o

[8~{} Uncle Climate Monster

On Sun, 06 Mar 2016 16:41:00 -0000, wrote:

On Sun, 06 Mar 2016 15:18:08 -0000, "Mr Macaw" wrote:

On Sun, 06 Mar 2016 05:04:22 -0000, wrote:

In fact our code requires that you are pretty much never more than 6
feet from a receptacle, not crossing a door or other opening.

Why on earth would convenience be in your code? I thought "code" was for safety?

In the case of receptacle spacing, the safety thing is limiting the
number of extension cords used and making it unnecessary to string
cords across openings.
There are plenty of people who say we have allowed too many things
into the code that are not safety related. Manufacturers have a lot of
influence in the code process.

Ours is a lot more sensible by comparison, it's just to do with good earthing, using the correct cables, not putting certain things too close to water etc.

240 equipment is generally going to be fixed in place anyway.

I will say that in my travels I was impressed with the 240v tea
kettle, if you really make that much tea.

So what are your kettles? 110 volts and 1.5kW? That would take an age to boil. Or do they have a 30 amp flex?

What about an iron? A portable fan-heater or convector heater? There are loads of appliances which need a lot of power that you may wish to move about.

120v equipment is pretty much limited to 1440w. Irons seem to function
just fine at 1kw or less and we don't really drink that much tea.
I am not sure you can even buy a dedicated tea kettle here.

Coffee is much more common than tea in the UK. I thought you guys drank just as much coffee?

People
boil water on the stove where they have plenty of power.

Ah but that's not as safe, you might spill the hot water on yourself :-)

We really try to avoid the use of portable heaters by having robust
central systems but there are still plenty of 1440w heaters around.
They cause a disproportionate number of the fires, usually in older
homes with bad electrical systems.

Not many of us use them for heating the house, they're for convenience. For example you want to dry some clothes, or you've painted the room and want to dry it quickly, or you've just come home from holidays and want a room warmed up quicker than the central heating will do.

My usage ranges from about 2 MWH a month

Looking at my last bill, I used 1.5MWH between April 25th and Oct 11th, which is several times less than you. WTF are you doing with all that power?

Pumping and heating water, cooking, heat and A/C, running a spa and a
pool.

The pool is presumably heated by gas, so you're just talking about the pump?

Don't you cook with gas?

It starts adding up fast I guess
Heat is not really an issue but when we do it we have toaster wire
heaters. I have not had the central heat on in a couple of years but
we do have a 1440w "electric fireplace" in the living room that my
wife uses on cold mornings for a little warm up.

Do you even notice 1440W? We'd call that a space heater ;-)

That is between $200 and $300 with all the fees taxes and other
charges.

Here, 2.5MWH would cost £340 = $480, about twice what you pay. Why is America cheaper for everything? There's a phrase "rip off Britain" but nobody knows why it's the case.

I imagine you have a tad more in taxes but we also use natural gas for
electrical generation and that is pretty cheap here.

As do we, along with coal.

I think the problem overall is you have more natural resources for everything, per head of population. The UK is overcrowded. I think we should send some over there.

--
According to the Guinness Book of World Records, Wolfgang Butterballs of Staines, England jettisoned a record 813ml of ejaculate on June 22, 1997. The average is 3.5ml.

On Sun, 06 Mar 2016 17:17:19 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 11:41:24 AM UTC-5, wrote:


120v equipment is pretty much limited to 1440w. Irons seem to function
just fine at 1kw or less and we don't really drink that much tea.
I am not sure you can even buy a dedicated tea kettle here. People
boil water on the stove where they have plenty of power.

They are actually readily available. Most places that sell toaster,
mixers, coffee makers, etc should have them. They are called electric
kettles. I'd post a link, but it's too long.

Long links work fine. Some computers **** up and wrap them, but you can piece it back together.

I have one, very
handy, use it to make coffee every morning. But then I use a French
press to make coffee, most people probably use a coffee maker.

Most people in the UK use a kettle and instant powdered coffee. We're too lazy to use a percolator and beans.

--
If you had to identify, in one word, the reason why the human race has not achieved, and never will achieve, its full potential, that word would be "meetings."

On Sun, 06 Mar 2016 16:56:27 -0000, wrote:

On Sun, 06 Mar 2016 15:31:58 -0000, "Mr Macaw" wrote:

On Sun, 06 Mar 2016 15:27:28 -0000, Ralph Mowery wrote:


"Mr Macaw" wrote in message news .

What is an "ice storm"? Is that the same as a "hail storm"? Our
transformers never seem to break.


The ice storm is when the rain fall out of the sky and freezes on the power
lines and trees. It can build up to several inches in diameter. Often the
ice is more than the tree or some of the big limbs can stand and they break
and fall across the power lines. Sometimes could be called freezing rain.

Unlike hail that is already frozen and does not usually stick to the wires
and trees. Hail can be large enough to damage things but does not usually
take out the power lines.

That's very odd and seems to be against the laws of physics. If it's below freezing on the branches, how come it's above freezing higher up (where you'd expect it to be colder) causing rain and not hail?

The only time we get too much weight on branches is in colder parts (North Scotland) where SNOW falls on things. Snow has the ability to stick of course, and builds up.

This ice thing happens when the temp is hovering around 0c. the rain
mixed with snow (aka the dreaded "sleet and freezing rain")
accumulates on ice that is already there and freezes creating another
layer. It is just a strange thing that doesn't make as much sense as
you would like but seeing a CM coating of ice on anything that it
lands on makes it a reality. These things can be quite beautiful until
stuff starts breaking. Imagine a forest of trees apparently made of
glass. On a full moon night it is breath taking.
The biggest part of the electrical problem is the reluctance of
northern folks to cut back trees around power lines.
Down here in Florida they are very aggressive about eliminating
anything growing in the right of way. You really do not own the land
in front of your house within about 3m of the road (where the power
lines run) and the power company has the power to cut anything that
encroaches into that space. They do. People accept it because of the
number of wind storms we have. The power companies are really working
to get as much as this as they can, underground. Around here, the
phone company is already there and my landline is actually more
reliable than the cell after a hurricane. I have never lost it in 32
years.

Why are you so far behind us with wires? Ours have been underground for many decades. Only the national grid at 330,000 volts is overground.

--
How come the dove gets to be the peace symbol? How about the pillow? It has more feathers than the dove, and it doesn't have that dangerous beak!

On Sun, 06 Mar 2016 17:56:59 -0000, Stormin Mormon wrote:

On 3/6/2016 11:32 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 10:18:16 AM UTC-5, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Sun, 06 Mar 2016 05:04:22 -0000, wrote:


Why are more outlets "inconvenient"?

Because of the two different types. If I want to plug in a hoover, I use any outlet. You have to find one of the right voltage. So to make it as likely to have one, you need twice as many outlets.


All the common everyday appliances, eg microwave, electric kettle, lamps, vacuums, are 120V here and those are the only outlets distributed around the
house. 240V is used for electric dryers and ovens and it's about the only
place you'd find a 240V receptacle in a typical house. Some might have
it for some shop type gear, in their basement, garage etc too.

I've seen 220 or 240 volt outlets for through
the wall AC. 12,000 BTU per hour and larger,
most often.

You use BTU as a measurement? That's "BRITISH thermal unit", something we used to use for gas, now it's in kWh, the same as electricity always has been.

That's 3517W. Our 230V sockets are 13A, which is 2990W. Although I get about 246V here, so it's more like 3198W. One of the reasons I use a UPS for my lighting, so the bulbs don't wear out. My voltage is from 241V to 255V. It's supposed to be 230V. I complained, but they're not obliged to fix anything under 10% over.

My electric cooker has a 30A connection, which is 6kW. My shower has a 60A outlet, so I could theoretically put in a 14kW shower. I've seen Honda advertise 80A outlets for your wall to fast charge their electric cars.

--
Q: Why can't you have a Jewish Morris dancer?
A: Because you have to be a complete prick to be a Morris dancer.

On Wed, 09 Mar 2016 20:35:07 -0000, "Mr Macaw" wrote:

My usage ranges from about 2 MWH a month

Looking at my last bill, I used 1.5MWH between April 25th and Oct 11th, which is several times less than you. WTF are you doing with all that power?

Pumping and heating water, cooking, heat and A/C, running a spa and a
pool.

The pool is presumably heated by gas, so you're just talking about the pump?

The pump is really the main usage. I have solar heat and a gas heater
but we never use the gas. Most people in the world would say our pool
was always warm enough. It is about 20 now, I will get in it when it
is 23 and my wife likes 29 or more. That is most of the summer tho.
The solars will extend the season for me to about 9 months and in the
3 when it is too cold to get in the pool I switch the solars over to
the spa. I can usually get 38 or more for free in the solars.

On Wed, 09 Mar 2016 20:38:13 -0000, "Mr Macaw" wrote:

On Sun, 06 Mar 2016 17:17:19 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 11:41:24 AM UTC-5, wrote:


120v equipment is pretty much limited to 1440w. Irons seem to function
just fine at 1kw or less and we don't really drink that much tea.
I am not sure you can even buy a dedicated tea kettle here. People
boil water on the stove where they have plenty of power.

They are actually readily available. Most places that sell toaster,
mixers, coffee makers, etc should have them. They are called electric
kettles. I'd post a link, but it's too long.

Long links work fine. Some computers **** up and wrap them, but you can piece it back together.

I have one, very
handy, use it to make coffee every morning. But then I use a French
press to make coffee, most people probably use a coffee maker.

Most people in the UK use a kettle and instant powdered coffee. We're too lazy to use a percolator and beans.

Coffee has been elevated to it's own food group here and people will
pay more for a cup of coffee than a beer.
I am OK with regular drip coffee tho. I haven't seen perked coffee in
years. I probably drink a liter or so a day.

On Mon, 07 Mar 2016 14:45:23 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 6:18:03 PM UTC-5, Mr Macaw wrote:

Out tea kettles are generally 120 volt and 1500 watts, +/- and can
heat a cup of water for tea in about 45 seconds to 2 minutes.

So if more than one of you wants a cup, or you want a large mug of coffee, you have to wait 5 minutes? That is unacceptable.

It doesn't take 5 mins to do a cup at 120V. I can do a liter in a little
more than that.

According to the laws of physics, 10C water to boiling with a 1500W heating element is 4 minutes 12 seconds.

I'm thinking of say three people having a mug of coffee. That seems to take far too long even with a 3000W kettle. But then I get annoyed waiting for a microwave oven to cook my food.... I think the problem lies with computers getting faster and faster, but the rest of life doesn't.

If you really want it fast, we have instant hot water dispensers that you can install under the sink.

Or just use the hot tap on the sink, from your gas boiler.

They have a tank, ~ 1/2 gal, that is constantly hot. I stated previously that I agree having 240V
for that would be nice, it would cut down the time. But I think you're
way over doing how important it is.

I'm very impatient. To see this for yourself, try driving in front of me.

Heating a quart takes a bit longer - and some heat faster than others.
What about an iron? A portable fan-heater or convector heater? There are
loads of appliances which need a lot of power that you may wish to move
about.

Portable heaters generally run 1500 watts on high, and 750 or 850 on
low. Irons are generally 1200 watts. They do not heat up immediately,
but mabee the "colonials" have a bit more patience then folks from
"the old country"

Good enough to maintain a room temperature, but useless for heating one up in under a decade, or drying out something very wet.

Please. It doesn't take a decade to heat up a room.

It does. I'd say 3kW is a reasonable amount of power to heat a medium sized room.

Also, as pointed
out previously, few people use them that way. We mostly have central
heat. Some people, not many thought, use them to supplement that in one
room, so they can keep the rest of the house set lower.

Do you not have thermostatic radiator valves? Or more room stats with zoned valves?

If we're not in the middle of nowhere, heating, hot water, and cooking is
done by gas (it's 3 times cheaper), so we don't use that much electricity.
Showers, washing machines, and dishwashers tend to heat their own water, so
those and a tumble dryer (our weather is very damp) are about the only
things that wil use much.

Here we don't generally use "widow-maker" showers

I had to look that up, and got this image:
https://theuntilmatters.files.wordpr...dow-maker2.jpg

Although ours don't look like that, those ones are cheap **** you get on campsites, ours do heat the water with electricity, in a box on the wall. Why would you think that was dangerous?

I agree with that part. I assumed what you meant was an on demand,
point-of-use type water heater. They are safe, as long as they are
correctly installed.

Yes, our showers are, but they're more substantial, like this: http://www.mirashowers.co.uk/onlinec...tric%20showers

And current code requires several 20 amp circuits for the kitchen.

Now you see that's convenience not safety.

It's both. Unless you think having an electric fryer, electric kettle,
etc on cords running God knows where, that can be tripped over,

Not along the worktop they can't. And I look where I'm going anyway. When did the whole world become blind?

run to
a non-GFCI outlet, etc is safe. And "convenience" is a stretch. I'd
say it's "functionality" and safety.

Odd, the whole house has GFCI here. Except mine, I can't be bothered with that ****, I have the original fusebox installed in 1979. It works. It never trips and annoys me. I'd rather say ouch than have to go and reset it.

--
What do you call an aerobics instructor who doesn't cause pain & agony?
Unemployed.

On Wed, 09 Mar 2016 20:45:49 -0000, "Mr Macaw" wrote:

On Sun, 06 Mar 2016 16:56:27 -0000, wrote:

On Sun, 06 Mar 2016 15:31:58 -0000, "Mr Macaw" wrote:

On Sun, 06 Mar 2016 15:27:28 -0000, Ralph Mowery wrote:


"Mr Macaw" wrote in message news .

What is an "ice storm"? Is that the same as a "hail storm"? Our
transformers never seem to break.


The ice storm is when the rain fall out of the sky and freezes on the power
lines and trees. It can build up to several inches in diameter. Often the
ice is more than the tree or some of the big limbs can stand and they break
and fall across the power lines. Sometimes could be called freezing rain.

Unlike hail that is already frozen and does not usually stick to the wires
and trees. Hail can be large enough to damage things but does not usually
take out the power lines.

That's very odd and seems to be against the laws of physics. If it's below freezing on the branches, how come it's above freezing higher up (where you'd expect it to be colder) causing rain and not hail?

The only time we get too much weight on branches is in colder parts (North Scotland) where SNOW falls on things. Snow has the ability to stick of course, and builds up.

This ice thing happens when the temp is hovering around 0c. the rain
mixed with snow (aka the dreaded "sleet and freezing rain")
accumulates on ice that is already there and freezes creating another
layer. It is just a strange thing that doesn't make as much sense as
you would like but seeing a CM coating of ice on anything that it
lands on makes it a reality. These things can be quite beautiful until
stuff starts breaking. Imagine a forest of trees apparently made of
glass. On a full moon night it is breath taking.
The biggest part of the electrical problem is the reluctance of
northern folks to cut back trees around power lines.
Down here in Florida they are very aggressive about eliminating
anything growing in the right of way. You really do not own the land
in front of your house within about 3m of the road (where the power
lines run) and the power company has the power to cut anything that
encroaches into that space. They do. People accept it because of the
number of wind storms we have. The power companies are really working
to get as much as this as they can, underground. Around here, the
phone company is already there and my landline is actually more
reliable than the cell after a hurricane. I have never lost it in 32
years.

Why are you so far behind us with wires? Ours have been underground for many decades. Only the national grid at 330,000 volts is overground.

I think a lot is just tradition. The assumption was that overhead
wires were easier to maintain. Now they are starting to figure out
that there is not that much maintenance necessary if they are buried.
Most new installation is underground but we still have millions of
miles on poles. They have the thought that if it ain't broke, don't
fix it.

On 03/08/2016 03:40 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 08 Mar 2016 20:02:29 -0000, "Mr Macaw" wrote:


I saw once a picture of double outlet for the USA, where the top one was 0v and 120v and the bottom one was 0v and -120v. So you could get 30 amps total there. I guess you could then even have a 240v outlet in the middle.

I never saw one of those.

This is probably what they mean
http://tinyurl.com/jbqkpnh

It is a NEMA 5-15p and 6-15p on the same yoke

What I saw in an old apartment probably looked like that, except for no
ground holes.

How would that be wired?

[snip]

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day; Give him a religion,
and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish

On 3/9/2016 4:16 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 09 Mar 2016 20:35:07 -0000, "Mr Macaw" wrote:

My usage ranges from about 2 MWH a month

Looking at my last bill, I used 1.5MWH between April 25th and Oct 11th, which is several times less than you. WTF are you doing with all that power?

Pumping and heating water, cooking, heat and A/C, running a spa and a
pool.

The pool is presumably heated by gas, so you're just talking about the pump?

The pump is really the main usage. I have solar heat and a gas heater
but we never use the gas. Most people in the world would say our pool
was always warm enough. It is about 20 now, I will get in it when it
is 23 and my wife likes 29 or more. That is most of the summer tho.
The solars will extend the season for me to about 9 months and in the
3 when it is too cold to get in the pool I switch the solars over to
the spa. I can usually get 38 or more for free in the solars.


Did you move your ground wire to the ground bus?

--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On 3/9/2016 4:19 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 09 Mar 2016 20:38:13 -0000, "Mr Macaw" wrote:

Most people in the UK use a kettle and instant powdered coffee. We're too lazy to use a percolator and beans.

Coffee has been elevated to it's own food group here and people will
pay more for a cup of coffee than a beer.
I am OK with regular drip coffee tho. I haven't seen perked coffee in
years. I probably drink a liter or so a day.


And where does your ground wire go, where it
comes in from the pole?

--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On Wed, 9 Mar 2016 15:36:27 -0600, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

This is probably what they mean
http://tinyurl.com/jbqkpnh

It is a NEMA 5-15p and 6-15p on the same yoke

What I saw in an old apartment probably looked like that, except for no
ground holes.

How would that be wired?


I would bring a 14/3 romex into the box. The 120 would get a black and
white, the 240 a red and black.
I believe in that receptacle the black side screws are tied common.

On Wed, 9 Mar 2016 15:36:27 -0600, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

On 03/08/2016 03:40 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 08 Mar 2016 20:02:29 -0000, "Mr Macaw" wrote:


I saw once a picture of double outlet for the USA, where the top one was 0v and 120v and the bottom one was 0v and -120v. So you could get 30 amps total there. I guess you could then even have a 240v outlet in the middle.

I never saw one of those.

This is probably what they mean
http://tinyurl.com/jbqkpnh

It is a NEMA 5-15p and 6-15p on the same yoke

What I saw in an old apartment probably looked like that, except for no
ground holes.

How would that be wired?

[snip]
red wire on one terminal, black wire on another terminal, and white
wire on the third, with the bare wire to the ground terminal. The 120
volt outlet sees the black and white plus ground, the 240 gets the
black and red plus ground.

On Mon, 07 Mar 2016 01:21:32 -0000, wrote:

On Sun, 6 Mar 2016 16:37:37 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 7:04:52 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sun, 06 Mar 2016 16:12:50 -0500, Micky
wrote:

On Sun, 6 Mar 2016 09:12:14 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 10:00:21 AM UTC-5, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Sun, 06 Mar 2016 07:25:01 -0000, Micky wrote:

On Sat, 05 Mar 2016 14:50:19 -0500, wrote:


Over here in the colonies we take that 240v and center tap the
transformer so both ungrounded legs are 120v above ground. That still
gives us the ability to use 240v equipment but most ends up being
120v. I suppose we can blame Thomas Edison for that. He started a fear
campaign against Nick Tesla over AC current, Edison wanted DC and he
said AC was more deadly, to the point of electrocuting an elephant
along with more than a few condemned prisoners ... all with AC.
When he lost the war, the deadly part still stuck and the belief was
that 120 would be safer, still leaving the option of having 240v
equipment.

I thought 240 was indeed more deadly than 120 and that more people
died of shocks, per capita, in the UK than here. How could 240 not
be more deadly than 120?

Isn't it the case that if either of them goes through your heart it can kill you? Anything over 80 volts or something like that is all the same.

The only difference is that much higher voltages can burn your skin, or jump across gaps where you least expect it. But that's kV.

--
Take notice: when this sign is under water, this road is impassable.

It's the current that kills. Not sure on the numbers, but maybe on
the order of 30ma and above can effect the heart rhythm. The human
body has some resistance, X. If you put 240V across that, you're going
to get 2x the current as you do with 120V. But.... That's really a
red herring the way the system works here. To get 240V you'd have to
be across both hot wires, which is extremely unlikely. Most common

You're thinking about the USA.

Mr. Macaw just posted that the two wires coming into his home in the
UK were 240 and 0.

The comparison I had made was between the UK and the USA, and I said I
thought more people died of shocks, per capita, in the UK than the
USA.

is for you to connect between one hot wire and ground, like standing
in water, touching an appliance case, faucet, etc. In that case
you'd still only get 120V. Between each hot and ground you have 120V.
Not sure how it works over there.
That would definitely be true if all Britts had as little regard for
code, the rule of law and safe electrical practices as Macaw does.

The Birdman is an idiot. Just reading some of the stuff he says in this
thread should make me laugh, but it's just so, so sad.


There are a lot of "bodgers" in the UK - and the competency of many of
them leaves a whole lot to be desired. In the UK, Mc Guyver would be
an absolute genius.
I only see the idiot's posts when someone replies to him.

That's because you don't have a clue how to operate a killfile. I can killfile a person and every reply to it underneath ad infinitum.

--
The world record for a talking bird is 1728 words by a budgerigar named Puck, having the same vocabulary as an estate agent.

On Mon, 07 Mar 2016 14:57:07 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 8:22:10 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sun, 6 Mar 2016 16:37:37 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 7:04:52 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sun, 06 Mar 2016 16:12:50 -0500, Micky
wrote:

On Sun, 6 Mar 2016 09:12:14 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 10:00:21 AM UTC-5, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Sun, 06 Mar 2016 07:25:01 -0000, Micky wrote:

On Sat, 05 Mar 2016 14:50:19 -0500, wrote:


Over here in the colonies we take that 240v and center tap the
transformer so both ungrounded legs are 120v above ground. That still
gives us the ability to use 240v equipment but most ends up being
120v. I suppose we can blame Thomas Edison for that. He started a fear
campaign against Nick Tesla over AC current, Edison wanted DC and he
said AC was more deadly, to the point of electrocuting an elephant
along with more than a few condemned prisoners ... all with AC.
When he lost the war, the deadly part still stuck and the belief was
that 120 would be safer, still leaving the option of having 240v
equipment.

I thought 240 was indeed more deadly than 120 and that more people
died of shocks, per capita, in the UK than here. How could 240 not
be more deadly than 120?

Isn't it the case that if either of them goes through your heart it can kill you? Anything over 80 volts or something like that is all the same.

The only difference is that much higher voltages can burn your skin, or jump across gaps where you least expect it. But that's kV.

--
Take notice: when this sign is under water, this road is impassable.

It's the current that kills. Not sure on the numbers, but maybe on
the order of 30ma and above can effect the heart rhythm. The human
body has some resistance, X. If you put 240V across that, you're going
to get 2x the current as you do with 120V. But.... That's really a
red herring the way the system works here. To get 240V you'd have to
be across both hot wires, which is extremely unlikely. Most common

You're thinking about the USA.

Mr. Macaw just posted that the two wires coming into his home in the
UK were 240 and 0.

The comparison I had made was between the UK and the USA, and I said I
thought more people died of shocks, per capita, in the UK than the
USA.

is for you to connect between one hot wire and ground, like standing
in water, touching an appliance case, faucet, etc. In that case
you'd still only get 120V. Between each hot and ground you have 120V.
Not sure how it works over there.
That would definitely be true if all Britts had as little regard for
code, the rule of law and safe electrical practices as Macaw does.

The Birdman is an idiot. Just reading some of the stuff he says in this
thread should make me laugh, but it's just so, so sad.


There are a lot of "bodgers" in the UK - and the competency of many of
them leaves a whole lot to be desired. In the UK, Mc Guyver would be
an absolute genius.
I only see the idiot's posts when someone replies to him.
He's definitely a barmy git who's totally lost the plot, as they say
- and as daft as a bush to boot. - a real wazzock fer sure.

At the rate you're blocking people, pretty soon you'll just be
talking to yourself. Which helps explain why you're wrong so often.
You just listen to yourself.

What do you expect from a gay Canadian?

--
Please be bending short long rod before inserting the output firmly inwards to save health unwellness.

On Sun, 06 Mar 2016 17:12:14 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 10:00:21 AM UTC-5, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Sun, 06 Mar 2016 07:25:01 -0000, Micky wrote:

On Sat, 05 Mar 2016 14:50:19 -0500, wrote:


Over here in the colonies we take that 240v and center tap the
transformer so both ungrounded legs are 120v above ground. That still
gives us the ability to use 240v equipment but most ends up being
120v. I suppose we can blame Thomas Edison for that. He started a fear
campaign against Nick Tesla over AC current, Edison wanted DC and he
said AC was more deadly, to the point of electrocuting an elephant
along with more than a few condemned prisoners ... all with AC.
When he lost the war, the deadly part still stuck and the belief was
that 120 would be safer, still leaving the option of having 240v
equipment.

I thought 240 was indeed more deadly than 120 and that more people
died of shocks, per capita, in the UK than here. How could 240 not
be more deadly than 120?

Isn't it the case that if either of them goes through your heart it can kill you? Anything over 80 volts or something like that is all the same.

The only difference is that much higher voltages can burn your skin, or jump across gaps where you least expect it. But that's kV.

--
Take notice: when this sign is under water, this road is impassable.

It's the current that kills. Not sure on the numbers, but maybe on
the order of 30ma and above can effect the heart rhythm. The human
body has some resistance, X. If you put 240V across that, you're going
to get 2x the current as you do with 120V. But.... That's really a
red herring the way the system works here. To get 240V you'd have to
be across both hot wires, which is extremely unlikely. Most common
is for you to connect between one hot wire and ground, like standing
in water, touching an appliance case, faucet, etc. In that case
you'd still only get 120V. Between each hot and ground you have 120V.
Not sure how it works over there.

My point was 30mA could be achieved just as easily with 120V. Making it higher than enough to kill you doesn't matter.

--
Mary had a little sheep
She took it to her bed to sleep
Mary found it was a ram
Mary had a little lamb.

On Mon, 07 Mar 2016 00:04:14 -0000, wrote:

On Sun, 06 Mar 2016 16:12:50 -0500, Micky
wrote:

On Sun, 6 Mar 2016 09:12:14 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 10:00:21 AM UTC-5, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Sun, 06 Mar 2016 07:25:01 -0000, Micky wrote:

On Sat, 05 Mar 2016 14:50:19 -0500, wrote:


Over here in the colonies we take that 240v and center tap the
transformer so both ungrounded legs are 120v above ground. That still
gives us the ability to use 240v equipment but most ends up being
120v. I suppose we can blame Thomas Edison for that. He started a fear
campaign against Nick Tesla over AC current, Edison wanted DC and he
said AC was more deadly, to the point of electrocuting an elephant
along with more than a few condemned prisoners ... all with AC.
When he lost the war, the deadly part still stuck and the belief was
that 120 would be safer, still leaving the option of having 240v
equipment.

I thought 240 was indeed more deadly than 120 and that more people
died of shocks, per capita, in the UK than here. How could 240 not
be more deadly than 120?

Isn't it the case that if either of them goes through your heart it can kill you? Anything over 80 volts or something like that is all the same.

The only difference is that much higher voltages can burn your skin, or jump across gaps where you least expect it. But that's kV.

--
Take notice: when this sign is under water, this road is impassable.

It's the current that kills. Not sure on the numbers, but maybe on
the order of 30ma and above can effect the heart rhythm. The human
body has some resistance, X. If you put 240V across that, you're going
to get 2x the current as you do with 120V. But.... That's really a
red herring the way the system works here. To get 240V you'd have to
be across both hot wires, which is extremely unlikely. Most common

You're thinking about the USA.

Mr. Macaw just posted that the two wires coming into his home in the
UK were 240 and 0.

The comparison I had made was between the UK and the USA, and I said I
thought more people died of shocks, per capita, in the UK than the
USA.

is for you to connect between one hot wire and ground, like standing
in water, touching an appliance case, faucet, etc. In that case
you'd still only get 120V. Between each hot and ground you have 120V.
Not sure how it works over there.
That would definitely be true if all Britts had as little regard for
code, the rule of law and safe electrical practices as Macaw does.

There are a lot of "bodgers" in the UK - and the competency of many of
them leaves a whole lot to be desired. In the UK, Mc Guyver would be
an absolute genius.

I'm not a wimpy pessimist. And I've had about 6 240V shocks. None of them killed me funnily enough, yet people worry about getting only one.

--
A lady says to her doctor: "My husband has a habit of talking in his sleep! What should I give him to cure it?"
The doctor replies: "Give him the opportunity to speak while he's awake!"

On Thursday, March 10, 2016 at 6:54:16 AM UTC-5, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Sun, 06 Mar 2016 17:12:14 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 10:00:21 AM UTC-5, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Sun, 06 Mar 2016 07:25:01 -0000, Micky wrote:

On Sat, 05 Mar 2016 14:50:19 -0500, wrote:


Over here in the colonies we take that 240v and center tap the
transformer so both ungrounded legs are 120v above ground. That still
gives us the ability to use 240v equipment but most ends up being
120v. I suppose we can blame Thomas Edison for that. He started a fear
campaign against Nick Tesla over AC current, Edison wanted DC and he
said AC was more deadly, to the point of electrocuting an elephant
along with more than a few condemned prisoners ... all with AC.
When he lost the war, the deadly part still stuck and the belief was
that 120 would be safer, still leaving the option of having 240v
equipment.

I thought 240 was indeed more deadly than 120 and that more people
died of shocks, per capita, in the UK than here. How could 240 not
be more deadly than 120?

Isn't it the case that if either of them goes through your heart it can kill you? Anything over 80 volts or something like that is all the same.

The only difference is that much higher voltages can burn your skin, or jump across gaps where you least expect it. But that's kV.

--
Take notice: when this sign is under water, this road is impassable.

It's the current that kills. Not sure on the numbers, but maybe on
the order of 30ma and above can effect the heart rhythm. The human
body has some resistance, X. If you put 240V across that, you're going
to get 2x the current as you do with 120V. But.... That's really a
red herring the way the system works here. To get 240V you'd have to
be across both hot wires, which is extremely unlikely. Most common
is for you to connect between one hot wire and ground, like standing
in water, touching an appliance case, faucet, etc. In that case
you'd still only get 120V. Between each hot and ground you have 120V.
Not sure how it works over there.

My point was 30mA could be achieved just as easily with 120V. Making it higher than enough to kill you doesn't matter.


30ma can't be achieved just as easily with 120V as with 240V. The
human body has resistance, tap water has resistance, etc. Under the
same conditions where 30ma is going through you at 240V, you'd only
have about half that at 120V.

On Thu, 10 Mar 2016 13:33:46 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Thursday, March 10, 2016 at 6:54:16 AM UTC-5, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Sun, 06 Mar 2016 17:12:14 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 10:00:21 AM UTC-5, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Sun, 06 Mar 2016 07:25:01 -0000, Micky wrote:

On Sat, 05 Mar 2016 14:50:19 -0500, wrote:


Over here in the colonies we take that 240v and center tap the
transformer so both ungrounded legs are 120v above ground. That still
gives us the ability to use 240v equipment but most ends up being
120v. I suppose we can blame Thomas Edison for that. He started a fear
campaign against Nick Tesla over AC current, Edison wanted DC and he
said AC was more deadly, to the point of electrocuting an elephant
along with more than a few condemned prisoners ... all with AC.
When he lost the war, the deadly part still stuck and the belief was
that 120 would be safer, still leaving the option of having 240v
equipment.

I thought 240 was indeed more deadly than 120 and that more people
died of shocks, per capita, in the UK than here. How could 240 not
be more deadly than 120?

Isn't it the case that if either of them goes through your heart it can kill you? Anything over 80 volts or something like that is all the same.

The only difference is that much higher voltages can burn your skin, or jump across gaps where you least expect it. But that's kV.

--
Take notice: when this sign is under water, this road is impassable.

It's the current that kills. Not sure on the numbers, but maybe on
the order of 30ma and above can effect the heart rhythm. The human
body has some resistance, X. If you put 240V across that, you're going
to get 2x the current as you do with 120V. But.... That's really a
red herring the way the system works here. To get 240V you'd have to
be across both hot wires, which is extremely unlikely. Most common
is for you to connect between one hot wire and ground, like standing
in water, touching an appliance case, faucet, etc. In that case
you'd still only get 120V. Between each hot and ground you have 120V.
Not sure how it works over there.

My point was 30mA could be achieved just as easily with 120V. Making it higher than enough to kill you doesn't matter.


30ma can't be achieved just as easily with 120V as with 240V. The
human body has resistance, tap water has resistance, etc. Under the
same conditions where 30ma is going through you at 240V, you'd only
have about half that at 120V.

I disagree. The resistance isn't enough to get anything like as low as 30mA with either voltage. Why do you think circuit breakers manage to trip when you touch live and earth? They need 30mA to trip.

--
Caution: Always engage brain before operating mouth.

On Sun, 06 Mar 2016 17:20:17 -0000, Ralph Mowery wrote:

"Mr Macaw" wrote in message news
On Sun, 06 Mar 2016 16:34:32 -0000, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

Space is more of a problem in UK houses, so having no hot water tank is
good.

Guess that it all in where one lives. I have alway lived in a house. Grew
up in a town of about 20,000 and lived about 8 blocks from the middle of
town. House was about 1000 sq ft of living and another 200 feet of unheated
space.

I'm in a two bedroomed semi detached house (two houses in one building). I have 49 square metres = 527 square feet. Plus the garage which is being converted into living space, which is 18 square metres = 194 square feet. Before I removed two internal walls to make a much larger room, I was constantly cursing about bumping into things it was so damn small.

The other houses were somewhat larger and of town. Now have about 2000 sqft
on 3 acers. All had plenty of space for the water heater. I could see it
in apartment houses. Have not been in any of the large cities but would
think they would have a large tank or two for the building.

The other claim is it saves money to only heat what you need, but I don't believe that. If it's winter, the heat escaping from the tank simply heats the house anyway. If it's summer, you don't use much hot water anyway.

dryers are 240 volts and have a special plug for that,

I can put my dryer anywhere I want in the house. I'd find it very
annoying to have to rewire the house when I want to move it.

It does not take all that long for the iron to heat up. Takes too much
time
to iron the cloths.. Perment press came out years ago. We don't even
have
an ironing board. The jobs we have just require working and not dress
cloths. The wife will put a towel or something over the bar in the
kitchen
to do some ironing if we relly need something ironed.

Permanent press? What is that? Like a big trouser press thing?

The material is permanent press. You just take the warm cloths out of the
dryer and hang them up. Just don't let them get cold in the dryer. If you
do they will have all kinds of wrinkles in them. You can dampen them and
run the dryer for a short time if this hapens.

Nothing wrinkles after being in a dryer, but I don't use a dryer, it costs a fortune in electricity. I thought you meant there was a fabric that wouldn't be creased after being hung up to dry?

I heard the phrase permanent press 20 years ago, then it disappeared, so either we don't use it, or everything is.

So you can't use two 15 amp appliances in one room? That would be very
annoying.

Some rooms will be fed by 2 circuits. Especially the kitchen area where one
might want to run the instant coffee pot and toaster or microwave at the
same time.

And how do you know which outlet is on which circuit?

On that note, we have a stupid thing which is allowed in our code. Double outlets - two 13A sockets in one unit. But they can only handle 20 amps total! So if you run two 13A devices from it, you overload it and it melts. Only a few MK (a quality manufacturer) sockets are rated at the correct 26A.

I saw once a picture of double outlet for the USA, where the top one was
0v and 120v and the bottom one was 0v and -120v. So you could get 30 amps
total there. I guess you could then even have a 240v outlet in the
middle.

Most outlets are the double kind,but are wired to the same breaker so only a
total of 15 amps can be used. The outside one I mentioned that I put in was
wired so each side could actually get 30 amps at 120 volts

Doesn't that exceed the abilities of the contacts?

or there is a 240
volt outlet in the same box good for 30 amps. They are all connected to the
same breaker so the total of 120 and 240 can only be 30 amps.

You must have clever breakers, how does it add the current to three different sockets on different voltages and possibly different phases?

The code is for safety. Most items come with about 6 feet of cord, so
outlets are usually every 6 feet of wall space by the code. Several
circuits for the kitchen area.

So to stop you having wires to trip over? That's going way too far with
safety, I thought the UK was bad. The only rules we have for outlets is
when installed near water, like in the bathroom. For some reason the
rules are tighter than the kitchen, which has just as much water!

Some of the code is way above ,but guess the government is trying to prevent
people from doing stupid things.

What a crazy thing to do. If you prevent the stupid people from killing themselves, the stupid gene continues into the next generation.

They are regulating how hot the coffee can
be in restraunts now. Seems that a while aback someone got some hot coffee
at a drive through and spilled it on their selves and got burnt and sued and
won about 5 or 6 million dollars for that.

On her vagina no less. While balancing it and trying to drive at the same time. She should have been done for dangerous driving and got no compensation at all. If I was McDonalds, I'd be making the coffee stone cold, and putting a warning on the cup saying, "Due to ****wits like Mrs Liebeck, this coffee is cold. If you don't like it, phone [insert Mrs Liebeck's number]".

I did one wiring at my house that is not
to any code. Ran a # 10 wiring from the breaker box on a 30 amp breaker
to
an outside receptical ( actually a combination) where I can get 120 or
240
volts, but its main use is to hook up a 5 kw generator that I have incase
of
a power outage.

Ah, so it's actually an inlet? It would feed back into the house?

That was the main reason, Make it so I could use my gasoline powered 5 kw
generator to power part of the house if the power is out.

I bet that would really confuse an inspector :-)

--
Love conquers all, except in tennis.

On Sun, 06 Mar 2016 23:37:35 -0000, wrote:

On Sun, 6 Mar 2016 12:20:17 -0500, "Ralph Mowery"
wrote:

Some of the code is way above ,but guess the government is trying to prevent
people from doing stupid things. They are regulating how hot the coffee can
be in restraunts now. Seems that a while aback someone got some hot coffee
at a drive through and spilled it on their selves and got burnt and sued and
won about 5 or 6 million dollars for that.

They were awarded a huge amount (2.68 million, i believe), but
McDonalds appealed and the payment was significantly reduced, with the
woman eventually recieving $640,000.

Why did she receive money for being an idiot? Coffee is hot. This is a well known fact. Has she never made any herself? If anybody sued me for something that petty, I'd seriously consider killing them in revenge.

--
Duelling is legal in Paraguay as long as both parties are
registered blood donors.

On Thursday, March 10, 2016 at 9:02:12 AM UTC-5, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Thu, 10 Mar 2016 13:33:46 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Thursday, March 10, 2016 at 6:54:16 AM UTC-5, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Sun, 06 Mar 2016 17:12:14 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 10:00:21 AM UTC-5, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Sun, 06 Mar 2016 07:25:01 -0000, Micky wrote:

On Sat, 05 Mar 2016 14:50:19 -0500, wrote:


Over here in the colonies we take that 240v and center tap the
transformer so both ungrounded legs are 120v above ground. That still
gives us the ability to use 240v equipment but most ends up being
120v. I suppose we can blame Thomas Edison for that. He started a fear
campaign against Nick Tesla over AC current, Edison wanted DC and he
said AC was more deadly, to the point of electrocuting an elephant
along with more than a few condemned prisoners ... all with AC.
When he lost the war, the deadly part still stuck and the belief was
that 120 would be safer, still leaving the option of having 240v
equipment.

I thought 240 was indeed more deadly than 120 and that more people
died of shocks, per capita, in the UK than here. How could 240 not
be more deadly than 120?

Isn't it the case that if either of them goes through your heart it can kill you? Anything over 80 volts or something like that is all the same.

The only difference is that much higher voltages can burn your skin, or jump across gaps where you least expect it. But that's kV.

--
Take notice: when this sign is under water, this road is impassable.

It's the current that kills. Not sure on the numbers, but maybe on
the order of 30ma and above can effect the heart rhythm. The human
body has some resistance, X. If you put 240V across that, you're going
to get 2x the current as you do with 120V. But.... That's really a
red herring the way the system works here. To get 240V you'd have to
be across both hot wires, which is extremely unlikely. Most common
is for you to connect between one hot wire and ground, like standing
in water, touching an appliance case, faucet, etc. In that case
you'd still only get 120V. Between each hot and ground you have 120V.
Not sure how it works over there.

My point was 30mA could be achieved just as easily with 120V. Making it higher than enough to kill you doesn't matter.


30ma can't be achieved just as easily with 120V as with 240V. The
human body has resistance, tap water has resistance, etc. Under the
same conditions where 30ma is going through you at 240V, you'd only
have about half that at 120V.

I disagree. The resistance isn't enough to get anything like as low as 30mA with either voltage. Why do you think circuit breakers manage to trip when you touch live and earth? They need 30mA to trip.

--

IDK what you're talking about now. For starters, circuit breakers
don't trip when you touch live and earth, unless it is a GFCI breaker,
which are the less common type and only required in certain applications.
Second, per Ohms law, the higher the voltage in a given circuit,
the higher the current. A human body, together with the rest of
the circuit that completes it, has some resistance value. With a
higher voltage, you will have higher current flowing, ergo it's
easier to get to your 30ma.

On Mon, 07 Mar 2016 14:48:12 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 6:38:12 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sun, 6 Mar 2016 12:20:17 -0500, "Ralph Mowery"
wrote:

Some of the code is way above ,but guess the government is trying to prevent
people from doing stupid things. They are regulating how hot the coffee can
be in restraunts now. Seems that a while aback someone got some hot coffee
at a drive through and spilled it on their selves and got burnt and sued and
won about 5 or 6 million dollars for that.

They were awarded a huge amount (2.68 million, i believe), but
McDonalds appealed and the payment was significantly reduced, with the
woman eventually recieving $640,000.

And there were extenuating circumstances too. The plaintiff showed that
McDonalds knew for a long time that their coffee was far hotter than
coffee at similar places, dangerously hot, etc and did nothing about it.
It was so hot that it melted the nylon the woman was wearing, as I recall.

It can't be more than boiling point. Most people boil the water for their coffee. There is no excuse for the woman being so stupid.

--
How many potheads does it take to change a light bulb?
Two. One to hold the bulb against the socket, and the other to smoke up until the room starts spinning.

On Thu, 10 Mar 2016 14:13:40 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Thursday, March 10, 2016 at 9:02:12 AM UTC-5, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Thu, 10 Mar 2016 13:33:46 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Thursday, March 10, 2016 at 6:54:16 AM UTC-5, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Sun, 06 Mar 2016 17:12:14 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 10:00:21 AM UTC-5, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Sun, 06 Mar 2016 07:25:01 -0000, Micky wrote:

On Sat, 05 Mar 2016 14:50:19 -0500, wrote:


Over here in the colonies we take that 240v and center tap the
transformer so both ungrounded legs are 120v above ground. That still
gives us the ability to use 240v equipment but most ends up being
120v. I suppose we can blame Thomas Edison for that. He started a fear
campaign against Nick Tesla over AC current, Edison wanted DC and he
said AC was more deadly, to the point of electrocuting an elephant
along with more than a few condemned prisoners ... all with AC.
When he lost the war, the deadly part still stuck and the belief was
that 120 would be safer, still leaving the option of having 240v
equipment.

I thought 240 was indeed more deadly than 120 and that more people
died of shocks, per capita, in the UK than here. How could 240 not
be more deadly than 120?

Isn't it the case that if either of them goes through your heart it can kill you? Anything over 80 volts or something like that is all the same.

The only difference is that much higher voltages can burn your skin, or jump across gaps where you least expect it. But that's kV.

--
Take notice: when this sign is under water, this road is impassable.

It's the current that kills. Not sure on the numbers, but maybe on
the order of 30ma and above can effect the heart rhythm. The human
body has some resistance, X. If you put 240V across that, you're going
to get 2x the current as you do with 120V. But.... That's really a
red herring the way the system works here. To get 240V you'd have to
be across both hot wires, which is extremely unlikely. Most common
is for you to connect between one hot wire and ground, like standing
in water, touching an appliance case, faucet, etc. In that case
you'd still only get 120V. Between each hot and ground you have 120V.
Not sure how it works over there.

My point was 30mA could be achieved just as easily with 120V. Making it higher than enough to kill you doesn't matter.


30ma can't be achieved just as easily with 120V as with 240V. The
human body has resistance, tap water has resistance, etc. Under the
same conditions where 30ma is going through you at 240V, you'd only
have about half that at 120V.

I disagree. The resistance isn't enough to get anything like as low as 30mA with either voltage. Why do you think circuit breakers manage to trip when you touch live and earth? They need 30mA to trip.

IDK what you're talking about now. For starters, circuit breakers
don't trip when you touch live and earth, unless it is a GFCI breaker,
which are the less common type and only required in certain applications.

Of course that's the type I'm talking about, hence me referring to 30mA, not 15A. In the UK, the whole house is protected by such things, why wouldn't it be? This is why I use fuses.

Second, per Ohms law, the higher the voltage in a given circuit,
the higher the current. A human body, together with the rest of
the circuit that completes it, has some resistance value. With a
higher voltage, you will have higher current flowing, ergo it's
easier to get to your 30ma.

My point is both voltages will easily exceed 30mA. If they didn't, those GFCI breakers would never trip. Killing you with 120mA is no worse than killing you with 60mA.

I just measured my resistance from hand to hand (the most likely path to get through the heart). 50kohm with wet hands, 500kohm with dry hands. At 120V, that's 2mA wet and 0.2mA dry. At 240V, that's 5mA wet and 0.5mA dry. No wonder I've never stopped my heart. It's impossible. The body has way more resistance than I thought. And I was squeezing as hard as I could for a good contact.

--
Found in a fortune cookie:
"You are a poor, pathetic, gullible fool who seeks advice from bakery products."