I have a 35 year old 100 amp service. I had my old furnance and AC replaced
with a geothermel unit about a year ago. When they did the install they
used all of the remaining free slots for new breakers. The issue is when
the unit comes on the lights dim for a second. Will upgrading to a 200 amp
service prevent the lights from dimming?

Thanks,

Jason wrote:
I have a 35 year old 100 amp service. I had my old furnance and AC replaced
with a geothermel unit about a year ago. When they did the install they
used all of the remaining free slots for new breakers. The issue is when
the unit comes on the lights dim for a second. Will upgrading to a 200 amp
service prevent the lights from dimming?

Thanks,



It won't if the impedances creating the voltage drop
are on the utility side.

That's a big gamble considering what a 200A service will cost.

Jim

Heck wether or not it fixes dimming a new service is a excellent thing
after all these years. Updates grounding and all the rest thats changed
in over 30 years, good investment for your future too.

someday you may want to sell the home

"Jason" wrote in message
. com...
I have a 35 year old 100 amp service. I had my old furnance and AC replaced
with a geothermel unit about a year ago. When they did the install they
used all of the remaining free slots for new breakers. The issue is when
the unit comes on the lights dim for a second. Will upgrading to a 200 amp
service prevent the lights from dimming?

Impossible to say.
I don't know anything about geothermal units, but they couldn't possibly
take anywhere near 100a even at startup.
If it dims your lights and electric stove and electric water heater are on,
then yes, a larger service will likely help you. Or try not to run so many
heavier users at once.
If it dims your lights when nothing is on but a few lights, then no, it
probably won't help; the problem lies elsewhere.
Also, it would be nice to know current your geothermal unit draws.

"Jason" wrote in message
. com...
I have a 35 year old 100 amp service. I had my old furnance and AC
replaced
with a geothermel unit about a year ago. When they did the install they
used all of the remaining free slots for new breakers. The issue is when
the unit comes on the lights dim for a second. Will upgrading to a 200
amp
service prevent the lights from dimming?

Thanks,



As another poster pointed out, a service upgrade is a good idea. However I
would call the power company and tell them what has been happening. Suggest
that the transformer feeding your house may be too small. If they decide to
upgrade the transformer and it corrects the problem, then you may be set for
awhile and it would not have cost you anything (I presume). If upgrading
the transformer does not correct the problem, than you should get some
estimates on a service upgrade.

"Jason" wrote in message
. com...
I have a 35 year old 100 amp service. I had my old furnance and AC replaced
with a geothermel unit about a year ago. When they did the install they
used all of the remaining free slots for new breakers. The issue is when
the unit comes on the lights dim for a second. Will upgrading to a 200 amp
service prevent the lights from dimming?

Depends on where the voltage drop is occuring. If it occurs inside your
house, then you need to use bigger wires. If it occurs outside your house,
then you call the power company.

To determine this, measure the voltage in your main panel while the dimming
is happening. If the voltage in the panel dropped alot (say more than 10V),
then call the power company. If the voltage in the panel doesn't drop much,
then the voltage drop is happening inside your house.

10V is something I pull off the top of my head. I'm sure NEC has a
recommended voltage drop limit somewhere.

On Thu, 20 Jul 2006 19:35:26 GMT, "Jason" wrote:

I have a 35 year old 100 amp service. I had my old furnance and AC replaced
with a geothermel unit about a year ago. When they did the install they
used all of the remaining free slots for new breakers. The issue is when
the unit comes on the lights dim for a second. Will upgrading to a 200 amp
service prevent the lights from dimming?

I am not an electrician, but are you really concerned about dimming
for a second, which seems trivial no matter how often it happens each
day, or about something else? I suspect your worried that something
worse is happening somewhere, and afaik, nothing is.

Thanks,

what sort of lights are dimming? if its those cheap fluroscent shop
lights ignore it they dim normally...

like i said a new service is a excellent idea

On 20 Jul 2006 12:57:16 -0700, "
wrote:

Heck wether or not it fixes dimming a new service is a excellent thing
after all these years. Updates grounding and all the rest thats changed
in over 30 years, good investment for your future too.

someday you may want to sell the home


If his house only draws 75 amps(number not important, just an
example), then a service upgrade is a waste of money. If you wan to
upgrade grounding, get a ground rod, length of wire, and pipe clamps
to bond house pipes, and save money live with it, and only upgrade
when you need to.

tom

On Thu, 20 Jul 2006 19:35:26 GMT, "Jason" wrote:

I have a 35 year old 100 amp service. I had my old furnance and AC replaced
with a geothermel unit about a year ago. When they did the install they
used all of the remaining free slots for new breakers. The issue is when
the unit comes on the lights dim for a second. Will upgrading to a 200 amp
service prevent the lights from dimming?

Thanks,


I am not looking at your panel, so this pure option, not a how-to.

I have a 200 amp service, and when my ac comes on, I get dimmed
lights.

Might be something you just have to live with. If you are concerned,
get someone to check your panel bus voltages, during a start/run/stop
phases. Becareful, if any electrician tells you that you have to
upgrade, then ask them for a "service calc" to prove it. If they look
at you weird, kick the cheat out.

As for your lack of spaces, well if you don't want to add another
circuit, you should never have any problems with that. If want to add
another circuit, you will have to speak with an electrician. If you
still don't need an upgrade, with new service calc, then a subpanel
and moving two old circuits over to the new sub, with the new circuit,
might be the cheaper results.

tom

wrote:

Heck wether or not it fixes dimming a new service is a excellent thing
after all these years. Updates grounding and all the rest thats changed
in over 30 years, good investment for your future too.

someday you may want to sell the home

What exactly do you have in mind when you say "grounding and all the
rest ...?"

--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .

"Toller" wrote in message
...

"Jason" wrote in message
. com...
I have a 35 year old 100 amp service. I had my old furnance and AC
replaced with a geothermel unit about a year ago. When they did the
install they used all of the remaining free slots for new breakers. The
issue is when the unit comes on the lights dim for a second. Will
upgrading to a 200 amp service prevent the lights from dimming?

Impossible to say.
I don't know anything about geothermal units, but they couldn't possibly
take anywhere near 100a even at startup.
If it dims your lights and electric stove and electric water heater are
on, then yes, a larger service will likely help you. Or try not to run so
many heavier users at once.
If it dims your lights when nothing is on but a few lights, then no, it
probably won't help; the problem lies elsewhere.
Also, it would be nice to know current your geothermal unit draws.

In AC mode it is supposed to take between 25-30 amps. 1 20amp circuit is
for the circulation pump. 1 60 amp circuit is for the unit itself, the
blower, and the electric backup heater. The lights only dim with the unit
turns on. After a second the lights return to normal. It just gets a
little annoying when you are reading a book and the lights dims.



I do not have an electric water heater. I don't have any really heavy users
of electricity. I typically only use my PC, frig, TV, sat receiver,
microwave, and a few lights. They are all on different circuits and only
sometimes used all at the same time. I really don't use a lot of
electricity so I don't what is causing the lights to dim. I blame the
geothermal unit because it happens when the unit turns on. Any suggestions
as to what it could be?



Thanks,

wrote in message
oups.com...
what sort of lights are dimming? if its those cheap fluroscent shop
lights ignore it they dim normally...

like i said a new service is a excellent idea

good old fashioned incandescent light bulbs are what I use. I am looking to
switch some of my frequently used bulbs to LED bulbs but finding a LED bulb
that can put out the same lumens as a 75 watt incandescent bulb and fit into
a table lamp is hard and the one found (puts out the lumens, but would not
fit in the lamp) is expensive. I hate flurosecent bulbs. One they hum.
With a lamp by my bed and me reading a book I can hear the hum and I don't
like it. Two they contain mercury. While I am not a tree hugging hippie, I
don't go out of my way to hurt the environment. Where I live no one
recycles mercury. I have an old mercury thermostat that I no longer use and
want to get rid of, but I don't know where to dispose of it properly.

Thanks,

Jason wrote:

wrote in message
oups.com...
what sort of lights are dimming? if its those cheap fluroscent shop
lights ignore it they dim normally...

like i said a new service is a excellent idea

good old fashioned incandescent light bulbs are what I use. I am looking to
switch some of my frequently used bulbs to LED bulbs but finding a LED bulb
that can put out the same lumens as a 75 watt incandescent bulb and fit into
a table lamp is hard and the one found (puts out the lumens, but would not
fit in the lamp) is expensive.

LED replacement bulbs are a very poor choice at present. Perhaps in a
few more years, but not right now, the cost : benefit ratio is crap
currently.

I hate flurosecent bulbs. One they hum. With a lamp by my bed and me reading a book I can hear the hum and I don't
like it.


You have apparently not tried any of the CF lamps. They *do not* hum,
they have high frequency electronic ballasts. The fluorescent lamps that
hummed were the very old ones with magnetic ballasts that are rarely
used anywhere these days. Get a CF and try it, they use 25% of the
electricity for the same light output as the incandescent.


Two they contain mercury. While I am not a tree hugging hippie, I
don't go out of my way to hurt the environment. Where I live no one
recycles mercury. I have an old mercury thermostat that I no longer use and
want to get rid of, but I don't know where to dispose of it properly.

They contain very little mercury, and what little they do contain they
more than offset over their 7+ year life span with the mercury emissions
from coal power plants that they eliminate by using 1/4 of the power
your incandescents do.

As for your dimming lights, the best thing to do is insure that all
connections in your panel and meter socket are properly tightened. If
the dimming is still an issue get an amp probe that has peak hold
capability and see what the heat pump is really pulling on startup. It
would also help to know how long your service drop is from the
transformer to your house.

Pete C.


Thanks,

"Pete C." wrote in message
...
LED replacement bulbs are a very poor choice at present. Perhaps in a
few more years, but not right now, the cost : benefit ratio is crap
currently.

I hate flurosecent bulbs. One they hum. With a lamp by my bed and me
reading a book I can hear the hum and I don't
like it.

You have apparently not tried any of the CF lamps. They *do not* hum,
they have high frequency electronic ballasts. The fluorescent lamps that
hummed were the very old ones with magnetic ballasts that are rarely
used anywhere these days. Get a CF and try it, they use 25% of the
electricity for the same light output as the incandescent.

Two they contain mercury. While I am not a tree hugging hippie, I
don't go out of my way to hurt the environment. Where I live no one
recycles mercury. I have an old mercury thermostat that I no longer use
and
want to get rid of, but I don't know where to dispose of it properly.

They contain very little mercury, and what little they do contain they
more than offset over their 7+ year life span with the mercury emissions
from coal power plants that they eliminate by using 1/4 of the power
your incandescents do.

As for your dimming lights, the best thing to do is insure that all
connections in your panel and meter socket are properly tightened. If
the dimming is still an issue get an amp probe that has peak hold
capability and see what the heat pump is really pulling on startup. It
would also help to know how long your service drop is from the
transformer to your house.

I have come to the same conclusion about LED bulbs. They are just too
expensive at this point. I hope they come down in price shortly. From what
I have read they use less power than a CF bulb.

I have not tried CF bulbs in about 3 years. The one I purchased hummed
loudly. I know about the switch from magnetic ballasts to electronic
ballasts but the packages I have looked at never SAY what type of ballast
they have in it. I would like to try one, but I fear I might find the one
CF that still uses magnetic ballasts. Do all CF use electronic ballasts
these days?

From the pole to the meter it is approximately 120 feet. From the meter to
panel it is about 3 feet. The current power feed is overhead. If I upgrade
to a 200 amp service I would have them bury the cable. It would make the
house look nicer and I would not have to worry about the huge icicles that
form on the cable in the winter.

Thanks,

my comments about upgrading, with a 35 year old panel you get all new
breakers, they can go bad overtime. plus arc fault breakers for
bedrooms and GFCI kitchens and baths. plus the panel is mazed out. come
time to sell the home all these issues equal less money... let alone
upgrading to code for grounding.

35 years is a long time and electrical use continues to grow

"Pete C." wrote in message
They contain very little mercury, and what little they do contain they
more than offset over their 7+ year life span with the mercury emissions
from coal power plants that they eliminate by using 1/4 of the power
your incandescents do.


That's kind of sweet that you are still naive enough to believe they
last 7+ years just because the package says so. They often burn out
after only a few hours; then you are stuck paying another $1 disposal
fee to throw away your $3 bulb because it has mercury in it.

I like the concept of compact fluorescents, but some of them are junk,
and you really can't tell the junk from the good ones by looking at the
label (or the brand name.)

Best regards,
Bob

wrote:
my comments about upgrading, with a 35 year old panel you get all new
breakers, they can go bad overtime.

so replace them as they go bad

plus arc fault breakers for
bedrooms and GFCI kitchens and baths.

you can install GFCI without a service upgrade

plus the panel is mazed out.

unless expansion is warranted, being maxed out isn't a problem --
it just means you're using all the capacity you initially paid for

come
time to sell the home all these issues equal less money...

I seriously doubt the amount spent will be recovered in a sale

let alone
upgrading to code for grounding.


be specific -- what does an upgrade allow that you couldn't do
separately?

35 years is a long time and electrical use continues to grow



--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .

zxcvbob wrote:

"Pete C." wrote in message

They contain very little mercury, and what little they do contain they
more than offset over their 7+ year life span with the mercury emissions
from coal power plants that they eliminate by using 1/4 of the power
your incandescents do.


That's kind of sweet that you are still naive enough to believe they
last 7+ years just because the package says so. They often burn out
after only a few hours; then you are stuck paying another $1 disposal
fee to throw away your $3 bulb because it has mercury in it.

I like the concept of compact fluorescents, but some of them are junk,
and you really can't tell the junk from the good ones by looking at the
label (or the brand name.)

Best regards,
Bob

You can return them if they fail after a few hours -- I've done it.

--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .

zxcvbob wrote:

"Pete C." wrote in message
They contain very little mercury, and what little they do contain they
more than offset over their 7+ year life span with the mercury emissions
from coal power plants that they eliminate by using 1/4 of the power
your incandescents do.


That's kind of sweet that you are still naive enough to believe they
last 7+ years just because the package says so. They often burn out
after only a few hours;

I've been using quite a few of them for 8 or 9 years and I've replaced
about 2 in that time and those were ones that are on 24x7. Every single
CF I've used has lasted at least 4 years for the 24x7 ones and the low
use ones are still going.

then you are stuck paying another $1 disposal
fee to throw away your $3 bulb because it has mercury in it.

What hell hole are you living in? I don't have to pay any fees to
dispose of my used CFs or the 4' T8s in my shop.


I like the concept of compact fluorescents, but some of them are junk,
and you really can't tell the junk from the good ones by looking at the
label (or the brand name.)

I've used a number of brands, including the Home Depot CE house brand
and have had no issues with any of them. Are you sure you aren't putting
them in fixtures with dimmers (unless they're dimmable rated) or in non
ventilated fixtures (unless rated)? That can kill them quickly.

Pete C.

CJT wrote:
wrote:
my comments about upgrading, with a 35 year old panel you get all new
breakers, they can go bad overtime.

so replace them as they go bad

plus arc fault breakers for
bedrooms and GFCI kitchens and baths.

you can install GFCI without a service upgrade

plus the panel is mazed out.

unless expansion is warranted, being maxed out isn't a problem --
it just means you're using all the capacity you initially paid for

come
time to sell the home all these issues equal less money...

I seriously doubt the amount spent will be recovered in a sale

let alone
upgrading to code for grounding.


be specific -- what does an upgrade allow that you couldn't do
separately?

35 years is a long time and electrical use continues to grow


You know electric service is similiar to a appliance... What other
appliances do you use forever? Its all well and good to save money but
its smart money to invest in your home. upgrading does just that and
trust me a 35 year old maxed out panel will be flagged by a home
inspector as needing upgrading..

"Jason" wrote in message
.com...
"Toller" wrote in message
...

"Jason" wrote in message
. com...
I have a 35 year old 100 amp service. I had my old furnance and AC
replaced with a geothermel unit about a year ago. When they did the
install they used all of the remaining free slots for new breakers. The
issue is when the unit comes on the lights dim for a second. Will
upgrading to a 200 amp service prevent the lights from dimming?

Impossible to say.
I don't know anything about geothermal units, but they couldn't possibly
take anywhere near 100a even at startup.
If it dims your lights and electric stove and electric water heater are
on, then yes, a larger service will likely help you. Or try not to run so
many heavier users at once.
If it dims your lights when nothing is on but a few lights, then no, it
probably won't help; the problem lies elsewhere.
Also, it would be nice to know current your geothermal unit draws.

In AC mode it is supposed to take between 25-30 amps. 1 20amp circuit is
for the circulation pump. 1 60 amp circuit is for the unit itself, the
blower, and the electric backup heater. The lights only dim with the unit
turns on. After a second the lights return to normal. It just gets a
little annoying when you are reading a book and the lights dims.



I do not have an electric water heater. I don't have any really heavy
users of electricity. I typically only use my PC, frig, TV, sat receiver,
microwave, and a few lights. They are all on different circuits and only
sometimes used all at the same time. I really don't use a lot of
electricity so I don't what is causing the lights to dim. I blame the
geothermal unit because it happens when the unit turns on. Any
suggestions as to what it could be?

Can you get ahold of an ampmeter? If you measure how many amps are being
used on each leg before and during startup, you will have an idea where to
go.

It is hard to know otherwise. 30a is a lot of current on a 100a service,
but not if nothing else is using current. But it might have much higher
startup current; no way to know without testing or asking the manufacturer.
My refrigerator uses 16a to start, but only 1a to run. On the other hand,
your backup heater probably uses the same to startup as to run.

On 20 Jul 2006 20:42:54 -0700, "
wrote:


CJT wrote:
wrote:
my comments about upgrading, with a 35 year old panel you get all new
breakers, they can go bad overtime.

so replace them as they go bad

plus arc fault breakers for
bedrooms and GFCI kitchens and baths.

you can install GFCI without a service upgrade

plus the panel is mazed out.

unless expansion is warranted, being maxed out isn't a problem --
it just means you're using all the capacity you initially paid for

come
time to sell the home all these issues equal less money...

I seriously doubt the amount spent will be recovered in a sale

let alone
upgrading to code for grounding.


be specific -- what does an upgrade allow that you couldn't do
separately?

35 years is a long time and electrical use continues to grow


You know electric service is similiar to a appliance... What other
appliances do you use forever? Its all well and good to save money but
its smart money to invest in your home. upgrading does just that and
trust me a 35 year old maxed out panel will be flagged by a home
inspector as needing upgrading..


Still confused, it 'needs upgrading' why?

By code?

Your option?

later,

Still confused, it 'needs upgrading' why?

By code?

Your option?

later,

tom the great, no doubt you drive a 40 year old car and never replace
anything at your home or you wouldnt ask this........ you old 40 year
old mower is still cutting grass fine?

theres a time for patch and make do, and if you pown a home upgrading
should be a ongoing operation so your entire home doesnt need done at
once

On 21 Jul 2006 11:40:57 -0700, "
wrote:

Still confused, it 'needs upgrading' why?

By code?

Your option?

later,

tom the great, no doubt you drive a 40 year old car and never replace
anything at your home or you wouldnt ask this........ you old 40 year
old mower is still cutting grass fine?

theres a time for patch and make do, and if you pown a home upgrading
should be a ongoing operation so your entire home doesnt need done at
once

Of course there's a difference between actual upgrading, and replacing
things for no reason.

On 21 Jul 2006 11:40:57 -0700, "
wrote:

Still confused, it 'needs upgrading' why?

By code?

Your option?

later,

tom the great, no doubt you drive a 40 year old car and never replace
anything at your home or you wouldnt ask this........ you old 40 year
old mower is still cutting grass fine?

theres a time for patch and make do, and if you pown a home upgrading
should be a ongoing operation so your entire home doesnt need done at
once


Thanks for taking the time to reply.

I just don't see spending money to fix what isn't broke.

When I win the lottery, I guess I'll find new places to spend cold
cash.

Thanks,

tom

I just don't see spending money to fix what isn't broke.

When I win the lottery, I guess I'll find new places to spend cold
cash.

Thanks,

tom

If you owned a home and looked as it as a investment besides being your
residence you would understand.

if you do own a home do you ever fix it up beyond the minimum patch job?

On 21 Jul 2006 20:28:47 -0700, "
wrote:


I just don't see spending money to fix what isn't broke.

When I win the lottery, I guess I'll find new places to spend cold
cash.

Thanks,

tom

If you owned a home and looked as it as a investment besides being your
residence you would understand.

if you do own a home do you ever fix it up beyond the minimum patch job?


Yes, but your premiss is wrong. When I do fix something, it usually
means it is broken or needs fixing.

What is broken( or needs fixing) with his panel, requiring
replacement/upgrading?

tom

On Sat, 22 Jul 2006 11:58:38 -0400, Tom The Great
wrote:

On 21 Jul 2006 20:28:47 -0700, "
wrote:


I just don't see spending money to fix what isn't broke.

When I win the lottery, I guess I'll find new places to spend cold
cash.

Thanks,

tom

If you owned a home and looked as it as a investment besides being your
residence you would understand.

if you do own a home do you ever fix it up beyond the minimum patch job?


Yes, but your premiss is wrong. When I do fix something, it usually
means it is broken or needs fixing.

What is broken( or needs fixing) with his panel, requiring
replacement/upgrading?

tom

It was pizzled?

"Tom The Great" wrote in message
...
On 21 Jul 2006 20:28:47 -0700, "
wrote:
What is broken( or needs fixing) with his panel, requiring
replacement/upgrading?

The problem is the lights dim for a second when the AC and heat come on. My
microwave takes so much power it also dims the lights when it is on. My
current plan is to get a volt and amp meter and hook it to the mains supply
and watch the values when the AC comes on. If the voltage drops then I am
told that the problem is the transformer located 120 feet from my meter.
The transformer is unable to supply sufficient voltage. If the volts and
amps don't drop (or drop very little) then the problem is something else.

Thanks,

Jason wrote:

"Tom The Great" wrote in message
...

On 21 Jul 2006 20:28:47 -0700, "
wrote:
What is broken( or needs fixing) with his panel, requiring
replacement/upgrading?


The problem is the lights dim for a second when the AC and heat come on. My
microwave takes so much power it also dims the lights when it is on. My
current plan is to get a volt and amp meter and hook it to the mains supply
and watch the values when the AC comes on. If the voltage drops then I am
told that the problem is the transformer located 120 feet from my meter.
The transformer is unable to supply sufficient voltage. If the volts and
amps don't drop (or drop very little) then the problem is something else.

Thanks,



You have the right plan there. Jason. But just be damn careful if you
really intend to "hook" an ammeter to the mains supply.

If there's enough "slack" in the mains feed coming into the panel to get
a "clamp on" ammeter around each wire, one at a time, you could do it.
But if there isn't, I wouldn't recommend trying to mess with those input
wires, you probably can't kill the power on them without having the
electric company come and "pull" the meter for you.

Actually, measuring the current isn't really the issue, if the current
peaked too high the main breaker would prolly pop. It's the voltage you
should be monitoring when you kick the AC and heat on. And if the AC and
heat use 240 volts then monitor the voltage across the two hot input lines.

The power company's transformer may be OK, but 120 feet is sort of on
the long side for a residential feed, and if the original installers
skimped a bit on the feeder size that may well be where your problem
stems from.

HTH,

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
"Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength."