On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 11:05:15 PM UTC-6, wrote:
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 19:14:46 -0800 (PST), Uncle Monster
wrote:

On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 8:39:57 PM UTC-6, wrote:
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 16:56:37 -0800 (PST), Uncle Monster
wrote:

On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 2:08:48 PM UTC-6, wrote:
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 12:03:00 -0800 (PST), Uncle Monster
wrote:

On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 1:32:45 PM UTC-6, wrote:
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 11:04:44 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 12:29:35 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 09:52:45 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 3/4/2016 9:39 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 7:00:14 AM UTC-5, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 3/3/2016 11:47 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 3 Mar 2016 21:40:14 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

I noticed a friends's Square D panel, the
neutral and ground (from the utility company
feed) are connected to the same bar. And less
than an inch apart.

Shouldn't the ground be connected to the
separate ground bar?

Should I move the ground wire?

No if this is the service disconnect enclosure where the ground
electrode conductor lands and the main disconnect resides they will be
on the same bus bar.


The question is about the circuit breaker panel
in the cellar. There is a main breaker, but I'd
not call it a main disconnect.


What would you call the main disconnect?

Is there another disconnect between the pole/underground wires and the
panel? If not, the main breaker in the panel is also the main disconnect.


Mains = wire coming in from the power company.
Main disconnect = a disconnect outside the house.
(yes, I've seen these before.)
Main breaker = the breaker that shuts off power
to all the smaller breakers.

I do not call a breaker in a panel a "main
disconnect".

I wouldn't either, I would call it the service disconnect if it was
the first disconnecting means after the service point. (the place
where the utility's wires connect to yours)

Not pushing back, just curious...

Do you not call it a "main disconnect" based on some official terminology or
just based on your preference? The reason I ask is this:

If I DAGS for images of Main Disconnect or images of Service Disconnect,
I get a combination of images that use either of those terms, and even a
Main Service Disconnect thrown in every now and then.

Some images come from Home Inspection sites, some come from .gov sites,
etc. There doesn't seem to be a "standard".

The NEC refers to it as the "service disconnecting means" and that
commonly gets rounded off to service disconnect, main disconnect or
other things. As long as we understand what we are talking about it is
just semantics.

The main bonding jumper (the place where the neutral gets grounded)
must be in the same enclosure where the service disconnect resides.
Some AHJs have ruled that it can be anywhere in "service equipment"
and allow it in the meter can if the ground electrode conductor lands
there too. This is because most meter cans ground the neutral.

I am not sure how they justify it because 250.24(B) seems pretty
unambiguous

(B) Main Bonding Jumper. For a grounded system, an unspliced
main bonding jumper shall be used to connect the
equipment grounding conductor(s) and the service-disconnect
enclosure to the grounded conductor within the enclosure for
each service disconnect in accordance with 250.28.

The important thing is that the neutral does not get regrounded after
the place where the grounding electrode lands. There used to be an
exception for sub panels in another building with a grounding
electrode system but that went away during the Clinton administration.

I haven't looked anything up but the bonding screw for the ground bar. Is it only screwed into the main breaker panel enclosure or is it also required for the sub panels? O_o

[8~{} Uncle Panel Monster

You only use that screw in the service disconnect enclosure. In a sub
panel you install the supplemental grounding bus and bring the
equipment grounding conductor to that (4 wire feeder)
The neutral bus remains isolated.

Perhaps I phrased it incorrectly. Does the sub panel can/housing have to grounded? I may have the wrong vision in my head but I think I imagined that the ground bar was in an insulated holder like the neutral bar but now I remember the grounding bar being attached directly to the can/housing. Drain bamage, not enough sleep. Sometimes I can't spell kat. o_O

[8~{} Uncle Confused Monster
The can/housing of ALL panels needs to be grounded, as does every
switch and outlet box, as well as all utility boxes. ONLY in the
"main/service disconnect" may the neutral and ground be directly
connected. The neutral bonding screw or jumper connects the neutral
buss to the case ground.

That's what I got confused. I had a rough night and didn't sleep well because of the crud I'm still fighting. I coughed so hard, I almost passed out. I'd always wondered why manufacturers didn't mount the ground bar to the can when they installed the buss bar assembly but I've installed ground bars in different places inside the can depending on how I was wiring the panel. Sometimes I installed a ground bar on either side to make for a neater wiring job. Some panels have a neutral bar on either side. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Bar Monster
My square D has split neutral and about 6 ground blocks - makes it a
real treat to wire.

I preferred it when I didn't have to run all the neutrals and grounds to one side of the can. In my opinion that's a very messy way to wire a panel. I've always been compelled to do a neat job because it made service and rework much easier for me or anyone else who happened to work on the breaker panel. It made it no problem to trace a wire. One thing I always did was to bring the wires in and run them to the opposite end of the can then loop them back up to the individual breaker. When any rework was ever done to move a breaker to another position in the panel, no jumpers were ever needed. There were times when I had to return later and mount a latching contactor for a fire shutdown next to the panel and the wires were long enough to pull into the contactor can from the panel. Of course that was commercial wiring but someone could find it useful for home automation. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Can Monster