"Mike Hide" wrote in message news:7nyWc.305295$%_6.8450@attbi_s01...


Kind of like Max Cleland, got injured playing with ammo, and then got beaten
fare and square in the last election for following the party line rather
than the needs of his constituents....mjh

For the benefit of those unfamiliar with the story Max Cleland, when
getting off a helicopter in Vietnma saw a greade on the ground and
thought he had dropped it. He picked it up and it exploded. Cleland
lost one arm and both legs.

I don't know that it was ever determined where the grenade came from.
It might even have been a fragging incident.

--

FF

Tim Daneliuk wrote in message ...
Fred the Red Shirt wrote:

SNIP


And that is a big part of the problem. Had the Governmnet invested it
prooperly (a PROPERLY managed student loan program is just one
possiblity) we'd not be having this discussion.


Had the government invested it *AT ALL* we'd be better off.

Uh no. LBJ invested a lot of in in Vietnam, for example.

money more or less goes into the general fund. It is not "invested"
in any real sense. SS resembles a Ponzi Scheme in this regard -
today's "investors" are paying off yesterday's

According to my uncle, prior to LBJ SS funds were accounted
seperately from the General Fund. It was under LBJ that
the SS fund was merged into the General Fund.




b) The actual "average income" was far less than $22K for
the past 45 years. I'd guess (and that's all it is)
it is more like $10K. In that case, using the same
calculations as above, we get a break even at just over
4 years.


I think that is close to the 'official figure' but the official
figure only credits the typical pensioner with half (the deduction)
of their contribution and does not credit them with the employer's
matching contribution.


Look again - my calculation was done at the maximum level of contribution -
7.5% each for the employee and employer regardless of income level.


You look again. Your calculation is not official. The official
statements *I* receive from SSA do not give me credit for the
contribution made by my employers.

--

FF

Tim Daneliuk wrote in message ...

2) Why should I have to involuntarily underwrite people who have more
children than they can reasonably afford? It is their choice to do
so and thus _their_ responsibility.

The same reason all taxpayers involuntarily underwrite all governmnet
activites.

You go to jail if you do not, that's why. I'll agree that sucks but think
the alternative, anarchy, would suck worse.

--

FF

(Doug Miller) wrote in message om...
In article , (Fred the Red Shirt) wrote:
Tim Daneliuk wrote in message
...
Ronald Reagan was not FDR.


Right - RR fought, and ultimately was the precipitating cause of the demise
of, Communism, while FDR openly harbored Communists within his
government ...

The people most respnsible for the fall of communism in Europe
are the communists themselves, though Lech Walesa sped the
process along. Calling on Gorbachev to tear down the Berlin
wall is not what made it happen.

No, but forcing them into an arms race that their economy could not sustain
DID. Even the Russians admit this. Too bad you're so blinded by your ideology
that you can't.

Do you really think tha tcommunism was sustainable and that the
leadership of the Soviet Union was effective in sustaining it?


I dunno if FDR harbored communists in his administration or not.

You just might be the only person in the US who's unaware of that.

I do know that in WWII the communists were our allies

Utter nonsense. We were fighting a common enemy. In no way were we "allies".

Hoy Crap!


and there is
no law against being a communist, nor against having communists in
one's administration,

Common sense would suggest that known enemy agents should be discharged from
the administration, rather than promoted.

Agents of which enemy, Germany, Japan, or Italy?

--

FF

"We" as in the collective woodworkers who should be using this ng for its
intended purpose. You can put "OT:" anywhere you want, that doesn't mean
this topic belongs here. OT might as well translate to: "I am too damn lazy
to post to the correct newsgroup, so I will stroke my ego by posting my own
personal political beliefs in hopes of trolling a 300+ message thread that
has nothing to do with woodworking and isn't going to change a single
person's opinion!"

Please preach to the choir in the correct place.

--
Thanks,
David W. Lovell
( Intrepid )
"Charlie Self" wrote in message
...
David asks:

Seems like there are 50+ alt.politics.* groups that seem perfect for a
discussion like this? Can we relocate this thread or let it die!

We? Where did you come from? Didja miss the OT leading the thread?

Charlie Self
"Bore, n.: A person who talks when you wish him to listen." Ambrose
Bierce, The
Devil's Dictionary

(Doug Miller) wrote in message om...
In article , (Fred the Red Shirt) wrote:
And what is the average retirement age? (Maybe 65?)

Approximately. We can agree to so stipulate.

What is the average life expectancey (Maybe 74?)

As I cited in another post, the average life expectancy of a U.S. 65-year-old
in 2000 is an additional 17.9 years.

If you are going to use the life expectance of someone who already
made it to age 65, you need to account for contributions into the
SS fund by those who died prior collecting, right?

--

FF

Chuck wrote:

On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 10:14:40 -0700, Larry Blanchard
wrote:


If the Arabs want to kill each other, that's their business. But their
antipathy to us IS based on our support of Israel.


Mostly true, but even if it were the *only* reason, does that
mean we should stop supporting Israel? Ethics and morality are not
popularity contests.


OK, let's do a little Thought Experiment. Suppose for a moment that the
US ceased supporting Israel and that the country then ceased to exist -
another diaspora takes place and the Arabs have the run of things as
they did for the better part of 2000 years. Do you seriously believe
that that the Arabs would stop hating us? Do you seriously believe
they would calm down and be nicer to each other? NO! Israel could
cease to exist and nothing much would change in the region. The
problem (as always) is Tribalism and Religious Fundamentalism. The
US and Israel are merely scapegoats that the thug leaders of Araby
need to distract their own people.

What we should _really_ be doing is dropping all support for the
criminals that run the Arab/Islamic world and let their own people
decimate them...

BTW, if we stopped supporting Israel, we would still be
richer, we would still be consuming more than our share of world
^^^^^^
Because we EARNED it

resources, we would still be supporting corrupt governments at the
^^^^^^^^^

Oh nonsense! We consume more because we produce more. The only
contentious 'world resource' we consume in large amounts is oil
and we are by no means the biggest per capita importer of oil.
Both Europe and Japan are far more disproportionate consumers
per capita of "world oil". Moroever, we could substantially
reduce our intake of international petrochemicals by doing
two things: a) Ratchet up exploration and drilling on our own
lands like ANWR and b) Rachet up a domestic nuclear power generation
program. But then again, the Green Gasbags (aka the "I Hate Science
Committee") would go apoplectic...

expense of "the people", our foreign military bases worldwide would
still have soldiers going out and raping the locals (don't splutter

You're an enormous ass. All populations have some small proportion
of criminals in them, including our (and everyone else's) military.
But the manner in which you phrase this makes it seem like it is the
norm, common, and a fundamental reason for people hating America.
You're much more likely (by many orders of magnitude) to see military
rapes in the Arab world or in the Oh-So-Brilliant milleau of Africa
than you ever are at the hands of the US military. AND ... when one of
our people is caught doing something evil like this we _prosecute and punish_
them (unlike the aforementioned Arab and African offenders).

back at me, check it out first), etc etc. In short, if you want to
hate the USA there are several buckets of reasons you can use - and
that's just for the reasonable people who are a majority. The fringies
hate everybody; we're just the best target.
Supporting Israel is probably the most noble thing we do.



So let's all starting hating based on actual behavior. Here are some
good targets for us Americans to hate:

1) How about the Arab Muslims that run an active slave trade in Mauretania
trading in black Africans.

2) How about the Arab Muslims that run an active slave trade in kidnapped white
girls as personal prostitutes.

3) How about the Arab Muslims that are butchering black Africans in Darfur
as an act of ethnic cleansing.

4) How about Arab Muslims that teach their children to suicide for a religious
cause.

5) How about Arab Muslims that beat women and deny them even the simplest
civil liberties.

..... Hmmm, I see a pattern emerging. OK, let's be fair...

6) How about the Africans who have butchered literally millions of each
other in South Africa, Congo, and other significant portions of Africa
in the past 5 decades all in the name of tribal pride.

7) How about the African men that rape young female children in the belief
that it cures AIDS.

8) How about the lax governments (Thailand, Brazil ...) that conveniently
overlook child prostitution. While we're at it, lets also hate
the evil degenrates that indulge themselves in same.


There's lots more but its too depressing to ponder. The US supports
its allies in the hope for and desire for PEACE, however imprefectly
we do so. A good part of the rest of the word - the part that whose
hatred we're all so busy trying to understand - is busy buchering,
murdering, pimping, and destorying anything resembling civil behavior.


Yeah, the US support for the whopping 13 million Jews around the world
(out of about 6 billion planetary members) is the REAL problem ...


--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Daneliuk
PGP Key: http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/

--
http://members.tripod.com/mikehide2
"Tim Daneliuk" wrote in message
...
Chuck wrote:

On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 10:14:40 -0700, Larry Blanchard
wrote:


If the Arabs want to kill each other, that's their business. But their
antipathy to us IS based on our support of Israel.

Large snipsnipsnipppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppp


Mostly true, but even if it were the *only* reason, does that
mean we should stop supporting Israel? Ethics and morality are not
popularity contests.


OK, let's do a little Thought Experiment. Suppose for a moment that the
US ceased supporting Israel and that the country then ceased to exist -
Yeah, the US support for the whopping 13 million Jews around the world
(out of about 6 billion planetary members) is the REAL problem ...

Well and good , lets the US jews support Israel as they probably control
[not own] at least 50% of US wealth. Have a disproportionate membership in
the US congress and financial control over many others .

Let them build their WALL [at their expense not ours] on their own boarders
not someone elses occupied territory, let them rename their capitol Tel Aviv
not Jeruselem, and finally let them stop Sharon murdering people left right
and center and then calling then enemies of Israel.





--------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Tim Daneliuk
PGP Key: http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/

Dave Balderstone wrote in message stone.ca...
In article , ray
wrote:

It was up on the web site for a brief time, then moveon
took it down, saying that it was inappropriate.

Actually, moveon renamed the file rather than remove it. That was
discovered and publicized by Matt Drudge July 11th or 12th, and at that
point the movie disappeared again.

Did you verify that?

--

FF

David responds:

We" as in the collective woodworkers who should be using this ng for its
intended purpose. You can put "OT:" anywhere you want, that doesn't mean
this topic belongs here. OT might as well translate to: "I am too damn lazy
to post to the correct newsgroup, so I will stroke my ego by posting my own
personal political beliefs in hopes of trolling a 300+ message thread that
has nothing to do with woodworking and isn't going to change a single
person's opinion!"

Please preach to the choir in the correct place.

Please quit reading off-topic posts. Where is the material on woodworking that
you've supplied to this NG that you so noisily are defending against all its
enemies?

In other words, where did you come from? Who appointed you NG nanny?

Charlie Self
"A judge is a law student who marks his own examination papers." H. L. Mencken

In article , Charlie Self
wrote:

Oh, c'mon, man. Drudge reported it. You don't REALLY think Drudge not already
verified it six ways from Sunday do you? After all, the man has a reputation
for probity...that might be reflected by Pinocchio's nose growth. He's a known
fact checker. Or is that, he knows a fact checker...and doesn't like him?

When the Drudge report about the renaming came out I did follow the
link to the renamed file and verified that it was there. That's why I
responded in the first place.

I would have replied earlier, but the person you quoted to is in my
killfile so I didn't see his post.

djb

Mike Hide wrote:


--
http://members.tripod.com/mikehide2
"Tim Daneliuk" wrote in message
...

Chuck wrote:


On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 10:14:40 -0700, Larry Blanchard
wrote:



If the Arabs want to kill each other, that's their business. But their
antipathy to us IS based on our support of Israel.


Large snipsnipsnipppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppp


Mostly true, but even if it were the *only* reason, does that

mean we should stop supporting Israel? Ethics and morality are not
popularity contests.


OK, let's do a little Thought Experiment. Suppose for a moment that the
US ceased supporting Israel and that the country then ceased to exist -
Yeah, the US support for the whopping 13 million Jews around the world
(out of about 6 billion planetary members) is the REAL problem ...


Well and good , lets the US jews support Israel as they probably control
[not own] at least 50% of US wealth. Have a disproportionate membership in
the US congress and financial control over many others .

How do the Brown Shirt and Jackboots fit? You are out of your mind.
50% of American wealth is likely found in public corporations that are
owned by .... you and me (in investment funds of various kinds which
is where the majority of public corporate ownership can be found).
You have every right to think and talk like a Nazi in the Land Of
The Free. And I have the right to ...... PLONK


Let them build their WALL [at their expense not ours] on their own boarders
not someone elses occupied territory, let them rename their capitol Tel Aviv
not Jeruselem, and finally let them stop Sharon murdering people left right
and center and then calling then enemies of Israel.






--------------------------------------------------------------------------

--

Tim Daneliuk
PGP Key: http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/




--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Daneliuk
PGP Key: http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/

Fred the Red Shirt wrote:

Tim Daneliuk wrote in message ...

2) Why should I have to involuntarily underwrite people who have more
children than they can reasonably afford? It is their choice to do
so and thus _their_ responsibility.


The same reason all taxpayers involuntarily underwrite all governmnet
activites.

You go to jail if you do not, that's why. I'll agree that sucks but think
the alternative, anarchy, would suck worse.


Well sure, that is the reality of how things work today. But the whole
point of having any political discussion is to see if we can do better.
We can and we must or we will be doomed ...



--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Daneliuk
PGP Key: http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/

David wrote:

"We" as in the collective woodworkers who should be using this ng for its
intended purpose. You can put "OT:" anywhere you want, that doesn't mean
this topic belongs here. OT might as well translate to: "I am too damn lazy
to post to the correct newsgroup, so I will stroke my ego by posting my own
personal political beliefs in hopes of trolling a 300+ message thread that
has nothing to do with woodworking and isn't going to change a single
person's opinion!"

Please preach to the choir in the correct place.


Newsgroups are funny things. They both meet the need for domain specific
discussion AND substitute for the proverbial pickle barrel of olde at the
local General Store. Yeah, we BS here on OT material. But we also
do contribute to on topic material. Rent a clue, learn how to create
a filter on OT subject headers if it really annoys you that much
and move along. It's just a freaking news group man, lighten up ...

--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Daneliuk
PGP Key: http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/

Larry Blanchard wrote:

In article , says...

On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 10:14:40 -0700, Larry Blanchard wrote:

If the Arabs want to kill each other, that's their business. But their
antipathy to us IS based on our support of Israel.


Their grudge against Christians goes back further than the existance,
let alone the US support of, Israel. By centuries.


True enough. But few, if any, were declaring Jihad in revenge for the
Crusades :-).


http://www.hudsonreview.com/BawerSp04.html
http://www.nationalreview.com/commen...en110201.shtml
http://www.tundraware.com/Ammo/CurseOfLarry.txt
http://www.frontpagemagazine.com/Art...le.asp?ID=4686
http://tinyurl.com/374ab


--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Daneliuk
PGP Key: http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/

You guys have released a lot of methane gas. How about easing up on the
polution?

Nobody appointed me anything. However, I have been using Usenet for long
enough to know what the etiquette is for OT posts. Anyone can tell you that
a political statement is extremely divisive. This NG seems to be about
bringing woodworkers together. Threads like this create polarized opinions
about the other woodworkers without even knowing who they are. So what
benefit has this thread served? No one has to listen to me, but perhaps
others think these types of trolling threads dont belong here as well. Maybe
not everyone participating is aware of Usenet etiquette. There are many OT
posts here that you dont see me saying anything about because they clearly
aren't abusing the general idea of an off-topic message.

If you bother to do a search, you will find the other threads I have
participated on. I never said anyone was an enemy to this NG, at worst I
said someone was too lazy to post a divisive message in its appropriate
place.

To conclude, I wont post on this issue again as I dont want to further
perpetuate this thread. If you dont agree with me, fine, keep blowing the
fire on the never-ending political debate.

--
Thanks,
David W. Lovell
( Intrepid )

"Charlie Self" wrote in message
...
David responds:

We" as in the collective woodworkers who should be using this ng for its
intended purpose. You can put "OT:" anywhere you want, that doesn't mean
this topic belongs here. OT might as well translate to: "I am too damn
lazy
to post to the correct newsgroup, so I will stroke my ego by posting my
own
personal political beliefs in hopes of trolling a 300+ message thread
that
has nothing to do with woodworking and isn't going to change a single
person's opinion!"

Please preach to the choir in the correct place.

Please quit reading off-topic posts. Where is the material on woodworking
that
you've supplied to this NG that you so noisily are defending against all
its
enemies?

In other words, where did you come from? Who appointed you NG nanny?

Charlie Self
"A judge is a law student who marks his own examination papers." H. L.
Mencken

No, not at all. I'm arguing that FDR - being the Socialist he was -
was far warmer to the Soviets than he needed to be. They were a
necessary ally, but effectively conceding Eastern Europe to them
was probably unnecessary. You seem to like history a lot. I cannot
recomment "The Mitrokhin Archive" highly enough. It is a real insight
into what was going on from the Boleshevik Revolution forward. It is
simply a 'Must Read' for students of history of that time and place.

--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Tim Daneliuk
PGP Key: http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/

Actually towards the end of the war the Russians occupied eastern Europe
advancing on a wide front before we even had got to Berlin .Posession being
nine tenths of the law what were we supposed to do oust them from their
captured territory? it was a fait accompli.

At the beginning of the war the Russians were allied with the Germans,
Germany essentially gave them latvia ,Estonia and I think Lithuania.

They occupied Poland and systematically executed the entire officer corps of
the Polish army, and as many intellectuals they could lay hands on .

I had two uncles both captains in the British army in the British
expeditionary force who were captured at the beginning of the war by the
Germans . They were handed over to the Russians and spent the whole war in a
Russian POW camp in Russia.

I think they were allies by the time the US got into the war....mjh

On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 02:03:15 -0500, Morris Dovey wrote:

Mike Hide wrote:

snip

at times it is necessary to relinquish some civil rights to
ensure the security of the country.

A sometimes seductive notion; but not true.

snip

Who was it, Ben Franklin, that said something along the line of: "He who gives
up essential liberties for security, deserves neither"?

Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS USA

On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 05:25:18 +0000, Tom Veatch wrote:

On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 02:03:15 -0500, Morris Dovey wrote:

Mike Hide wrote:

snip

at times it is necessary to relinquish some civil rights to
ensure the security of the country.

A sometimes seductive notion; but not true.

snip

Who was it, Ben Franklin, that said something along the line of: "He who gives
up essential liberties for security, deserves neither"?

Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS USA

Any time that you give up liberties, freedom or anything else to
government control, you are saying that the government has the right to
control anything in your life. How long will it be until you will need a
government permit to travel from city to city? All in the name of ensuring
the security of the country. Of course, the favorite saying is, "its for
your safety". That is a statement that the public will always fall prey
to. A completely false sense of security.

Paul T.

In article , David
wrote:

This NG seems to be about
bringing woodworkers together. Threads like this create polarized opinions
about the other woodworkers without even knowing who they are. So what
benefit has this thread served?

Has it done harm? *I* don't think so.

There are a number of people here who I know are superb WW'ers whose
political opinions I think are ludicrous. Does that mean I'm going to
ignore their next post on how to approach decising on what joinery to
use, or how to achieve a finish I may want for a piece I'm working on,
or refuse to visit for a beer or ice tea if I'm travelling throough
their home town?

Of course not. And I hope they give me the same consideration.

Hell, I have relatives whose political views I absolutely despise.
Doesn't mean I won't have a drink and friendly conversation at
Christmas!

I was at a family reunion over the August long weekend, and had any
number of drawn out heated political discussions that eerily paralleled
this one.

We were all still speaking to one another Monday morning, and looking
forward to the next time we met and could do it all again.

My $0.02 CAD...

Subject

This one needs very proficient **** disturbers in order to grow and prosper,
he said ducking and runningG.

Lew

In article .net, Lew
Hodgett wrote:

This one needs very proficient **** disturbers in order to grow and prosper,
he said ducking and runningG.

Keep practicing, Lew... There are those here who are a lot more
proficient than you or I...

;-)

"Tim Daneliuk" wrote in message
...
David wrote:

"We" as in the collective woodworkers who should be using this ng for
its
intended purpose. You can put "OT:" anywhere you want, that doesn't mean
this topic belongs here.
Please preach to the choir in the correct place.


Newsgroups are funny things. They both meet the need for domain specific
discussion AND substitute for the proverbial pickle barrel of olde at the
local General Store. Yeah, we BS here on OT material. But we also
do contribute to on topic material. Rent a clue, learn how to create
a filter on OT subject headers if it really annoys you that much
and move along. It's just a freaking news group man, lighten up ...

Tim: I love you, man. It's just a freaking news group....

Bob

"Tim Daneliuk" wrote in message

You have every right to think and talk like a Nazi in the Land Of
The Free. And I have the right to ...... PLONK


Don't look now but you just triggered Godwin's Law of Usenet.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 7/10/04

On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 23:57:18 -0600, "P.H. Thorsted" wrote:


Any time that you give up liberties, freedom or anything else to
government control, you are saying that the government has the right to
control anything in your life. How long will it be until you will need a
government permit to travel from city to city? All in the name of ensuring
the security of the country. Of course, the favorite saying is, "its for
your safety". That is a statement that the public will always fall prey
to. A completely false sense of security.

Paul T.

A little google time yielded the quote as:

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety."

Methinks old Ben would have the attitude that the USA public of 2004 is
seriously non-deserving. If so, I'm not at all sure I would disagree with him.

Why do you think it is that "the public will always fall prey" to the "its for
your safety" line of BS?

Maybe because somewhere during the last century or so we (John Q. Public)
developed an attitude that "the government is responsible for doing (..)", and
you can pick a value, any value, for "(..)"? The politicians don't seem to be
doing much to refute that attitude.

Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS USA

How do the Brown Shirt and Jackboots fit? You are out of your mind.
50% of American wealth is likely found in public corporations that are
owned by .... you and me (in investment funds of various kinds which
is where the majority of public corporate ownership can be found).
You have every right to think and talk like a Nazi in the Land Of
The Free. And I have the right to ...... PLONK

Let set a few things in order, my whole family [ Including two aunts] were
in the armed forces fighting the "brown ****s and jackboots "crowd, over two
years before America joined the fray . Schooling in many places [including
where I lived] was curtailed if not discontinued because too many kids were
going home to no house or parents is some cases or kids were spending more
times in air raid shelters than in class.

I agree that Americas wealth is found in public corporations , why don't you
follow the money trail and find out where the public corporations stocks and
bonds are traded . A relativly few brokerages control these companies
through manipulation of their stocks thereby comtrolling US industry with
owning any of it . mjh

Swingman wrote:

"Tim Daneliuk" wrote in message


You have every right to think and talk like a Nazi in the Land Of
The Free. And I have the right to ...... PLONK



Don't look now but you just triggered Godwin's Law of Usenet.


Yeah, I knew it as I wrote it. But go back and read the message to
which I am responding. This is one of those very rare cases where
it is literally justified by the position of the poster in question ...

--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Daneliuk
PGP Key: http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/

"Tim Daneliuk" wrote in message
Swingman wrote:

"Tim Daneliuk" wrote in message


You have every right to think and talk like a Nazi in the Land Of
The Free. And I have the right to ...... PLONK



Don't look now but you just triggered Godwin's Law of Usenet.


Yeah, I knew it as I wrote it. But go back and read the message to
which I am responding. This is one of those very rare cases where
it is literally justified by the position of the poster in question ...


Sorry, there are no extenuating or mitigating justifications for violation
of Godwin's Law of Usenet. Turn in your HCA glue spreaders immediately,
orient your prayer rug toward Wisconsin, and beg absolution from A100, The
First Unisaw.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 7/10/04

Swingman wrote:

"Tim Daneliuk" wrote in message

Swingman wrote:


"Tim Daneliuk" wrote in message



You have every right to think and talk like a Nazi in the Land Of
The Free. And I have the right to ...... PLONK



Don't look now but you just triggered Godwin's Law of Usenet.


Yeah, I knew it as I wrote it. But go back and read the message to
which I am responding. This is one of those very rare cases where
it is literally justified by the position of the poster in question ...



Sorry, there are no extenuating or mitigating justifications for violation
of Godwin's Law of Usenet. Turn in your HCA glue spreaders immediately,
orient your prayer rug toward Wisconsin, and beg absolution from A100, The
First Unisaw.


Done ... I feel all gooey now ...

--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Daneliuk
PGP Key: http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/

Bob Schmall wrote:

"Tim Daneliuk" wrote in message
...

David wrote:


"We" as in the collective woodworkers who should be using this ng for

its

intended purpose. You can put "OT:" anywhere you want, that doesn't mean
this topic belongs here.
Please preach to the choir in the correct place.


Newsgroups are funny things. They both meet the need for domain specific
discussion AND substitute for the proverbial pickle barrel of olde at the
local General Store. Yeah, we BS here on OT material. But we also
do contribute to on topic material. Rent a clue, learn how to create
a filter on OT subject headers if it really annoys you that much
and move along. It's just a freaking news group man, lighten up ...


Tim: I love you, man. It's just a freaking news group....
^^^^^^^^

Yeah, but it's not THAT kind of news group ...


Bob




--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Daneliuk
PGP Key: http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/

When we get the Constitution back, will we get the Second Amendment, too?
Will unborn babies get the right to life? Will we get back the money we
spend on welfare, public schools, public housing, WIC, and Social Security?
Will we get back property rights usurped by the EPA?

Hell, I'd be willing to vote Democrat, if they could do that!

--
Kevin
-=#=-

"LRod" wrote in message
...

I'm with Charlie. When the shrub is redefeated and we get the
Constitution back, you neo-cons will be thankful. You won't admit it,
but you'll be thankful.

I'll say it now: you're welcome.

In article , (Fred the Red Shirt) wrote:


No, but forcing them into an arms race that their economy could not sustain
DID. Even the Russians admit this. Too bad you're so blinded by your ideology
that you can't.

Do you really think tha tcommunism was sustainable and that the
leadership of the Soviet Union was effective in sustaining it?

Any centrally-planned economy is ultimately unsustainable, and the eventual
collapse of the Soviet Union was inevitable. Until Reagan, however, it was an
open question whether the Soviets would succeed in their efforts to subvert
the U.S. and other Western democracies before the collapse.

Reagan's military buildup greatly accelerated the collapse of the Soviet
Union. And even the Russians admit that. Google on Gennady Gerasimov.


I dunno if FDR harbored communists in his administration or not.

You just might be the only person in the US who's unaware of that.

I do know that in WWII the communists were our allies

Utter nonsense. We were fighting a common enemy. In no way were we "allies".

Hoy Crap!


and there is
no law against being a communist, nor against having communists in
one's administration,

Common sense would suggest that known enemy agents should be discharged from
the administration, rather than promoted.

Agents of which enemy, Germany, Japan, or Italy?

The Soviet Union.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

Get a copy of my NEW AND IMPROVED TrollFilter for NewsProxy/Nfilter
by sending email to autoresponder at filterinfo-at-milmac-dot-com
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In article , (Fred the Red Shirt) wrote:
(Doug Miller) wrote in message
om...
In article ,
(Fred the Red Shirt) wrote:
And what is the average retirement age? (Maybe 65?)

Approximately. We can agree to so stipulate.

What is the average life expectancey (Maybe 74?)

As I cited in another post, the average life expectancy of a U.S. 65-year-old

in 2000 is an additional 17.9 years.

If you are going to use the life expectance of someone who already
made it to age 65, you need to account for contributions into the
SS fund by those who died prior collecting, right?

Did you look at my other post, which presented a little more detail?

Example: the life expectancy of a 40-year-old in 2000 was 38.9 [additional]
years.

At *no* stage in life does an American alive in 2000 have a total life
expectancy of less than 77.4 years.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

Get a copy of my NEW AND IMPROVED TrollFilter for NewsProxy/Nfilter
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In article , (David Hall) wrote:
(Doug Miller) wrote in message

Johnson, Nixon, and Ford all served in the Navy during WWII. IIRC, Johnson as
an observer, Nixon in logistics, and Ford on combat ships. Clinton is the only
President in the last sixty years with no military service of any sort.

I don't know, the last biography of Johnson I read didn't mention him
being in the service. I did mention him flying as a passenger in a
military plane while he was a congressman (i.e. exempt from service),
the plane being shot at and him using that henceforth as him "being in
combat during World War II".

Johnson was in the Naval Reserve, and went to active duty two days after Pearl
Harbor: http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq60-6.htm

Google on "presidents who served in the navy" -- first hit is
http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq60-1.htm

We had five in a row (Kennedy through Carter).

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

Get a copy of my NEW AND IMPROVED TrollFilter for NewsProxy/Nfilter
by sending email to autoresponder at filterinfo-at-milmac-dot-com
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In article , Larry Blanchard wrote:
In article ,
says...
1) In the entire history of modern Israel, less than 100,000 people
have been killed in total on both sides of the war. During the same
period over 3 *million* Muslims have killed each other in the same
region.
Israel isn't the problem - Islamic fundamentalist nonsense and perhaps
equally significantly, Arab Tribalism, is the problem.

If the Arabs want to kill each other, that's their business. But their
antipathy to us IS based on our support of Israel.

That's part of it, to be sure. But IMO the overwhelming majority of their
antipathy toward us is the direct result of our relentless export, through the
media of television and motion pictures, of a popular culture that glorifies
nudity, promiscuity, alcohol and other drugs, irreverence, and impiety -- all
of which the Islamic world finds deeply offensive and threatening.

From their perspective, this may well pose as grave a threat to their way of
life, as they do to ours.


--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

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On 24 Aug 2004 19:57:30 EDT, Tim Daneliuk
wrote:

expense of "the people", our foreign military bases worldwide would
still have soldiers going out and raping the locals (don't splutter

You're an enormous ass. All populations have some small proportion
of criminals in them, including our (and everyone else's) military.
But the manner in which you phrase this makes it seem like it is the
norm, common, and a fundamental reason for people hating America.
You're much more likely (by many orders of magnitude) to see military
rapes in the Arab world or in the Oh-So-Brilliant milleau of Africa
than you ever are at the hands of the US military. AND ... when one of
our people is caught doing something evil like this we _prosecute and punish_
them (unlike the aforementioned Arab and African offenders).

Thanks for the ad hominem response. It adds great weight to
your argument.
Your own paragraph only equates our bad behavior with that of
others, which does not make it right. The fact that there are
criminals in others' military, as well as ours, does not make it
right. The fact that we prosecute (although not to the extent that our
host countries would always like) and others do not does not make it
right to commit the crimes.
In short, when I say people hate us because our overseas
military bases have criminal soldiers that *regularly* go out and
abuse the local women, it's true. If the Saudis or the Sudanese had
military bases in Okinawa, *they* would be hated in Okinawa. But they
don't, and we do.

I'm taking the pledge too. EOD.


=====
Those are my principles. If you don't like them I have others.
=====
{remove curly brackets for email}

Chuck responds:

Your own paragraph only equates our bad behavior with that of
others, which does not make it right. The fact that there are
criminals in others' military, as well as ours, does not make it
right. The fact that we prosecute (although not to the extent that our
host countries would always like) and others do not does not make it
right to commit the crimes.

There always seems to be an excuse, too. The prison guard scandals point up the
excuses, the most recent of which is, "The soldiers weren't trained." WTF does
training have to do with common decency? You don't bring in some nasty little
twerp girl soldier to point at a person's privates and grin. You don't pile
naked men atop one another...ah hell. You don't do anything those redneck
idiots did. And the Army should NOT have to train them to not do those things.

That said, it is now being stated that some intelligence types egged them on.
If that's the case, the intel jackasses should be stripped of rank, drummed out
of the service (or, if civilians, fired and locked out of employment with any
U.S. government entity) after a term in the brig...er, stockade as the Army
terms it.

Certainly, superior officers gave too much latitude to the troops. The superior
officers should be punished as severely as the troops, but they won't be. A
colonel or three and a general or two may be fired...that means early
retirement at full pension. Pfui!

That sort of punishment might at least slow down the idiocies that seem to take
place in such situations with all to great regularity.

Charlie Self
"A judge is a law student who marks his own examination papers." H. L. Mencken

"Charlie Self" wrote in message
...
snip
In any case, Kerry wasn't alone, nor the first, nor the worst, nor the
noisiest. It was an insane era brought on by another politician's war.

Charlie Self
"Bore, n.: A person who talks when you wish him to listen." Ambrose
Bierce, The
Devil's Dictionary

I find it fascinating that no one denounces former Defense Secretary Robert
MacNamara for having the courrage to admit "we were wrong" about Viet Nam --
but it seems to be OK (and downright fashionable!) for the galloping goons
to besmirch John Kerry for his much earlier anti-war testimony.

Steve
www.apachetrail.com/ww
--
WRONG begins with Dubya

There's a Dubya in every AWOL




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Whew!! the river names and info sure brings back lots of bad memories.
I was part of the riverine patrol group for 3 years and we sure
cruised the same turf.


jo4hn wrote in message link.net...
For those of you who may be interested, the following is the text of Mr.
Rood's account of events. Missing are the photographs which may be
found at www.latimes.com (requires a free sign-up).

FIRST-PERSON ACCOUNT
Officer Recalls Boat Mission With Kerry

By William B. Rood, Chicago Tribune

There were three Swift boats on the river that day in Vietnam more than
35 years ago — three officers and 15 crew members. Only two of those
officers remain to talk about what happened on Feb. 28, 1969.

One is John Kerry, the Democratic presidential candidate who won a
Silver Star for what happened on that date. I am the other.

For years, no one asked about those events. But now they are the focus
of skirmishing in a presidential election with a group of Swift boat
veterans and others contending that Kerry didn't deserve the Silver Star
for what he did on that day, or the Bronze Star and three Purple Hearts
he was awarded for other actions.

Many of us wanted to put it all behind us — the rivers, the ambushes,
the killing. Ever since that time, I have refused all requests for
interviews about Kerry's service — even those from reporters at the
Chicago Tribune, where I work.

But Kerry's critics, armed with stories I know to be untrue, have
charged that the accounts of what happened were overblown. The critics
have taken pains to say they're not trying to cast doubts on the merit
of what others did, but their version of events has splashed doubt on
all of us. It's gotten harder and harder for those of us who were there
to listen to accounts we know to be untrue, especially when they come
from people who were not there.

Even though Kerry's own crew members have backed him, the attacks have
continued, and in recent days Kerry has called me and others who were
with him in those days, asking that we go public with our accounts.

I can't pretend those calls had no effect on me, but that is not why I
am writing this. What matters most to me is that this is hurting crewmen
who are not public figures and who deserved to be honored for what they
did. My intent is to tell the story here and to never again talk
publicly about it.

I was part of the operation that led to Kerry's Silver Star. I have no
firsthand knowledge of the events that resulted in his winning the
Purple Hearts or the Bronze Star.

But on Feb. 28, 1969, I was officer in charge of PCF-23, one of three
Swift boats — including Kerry's PCF-94 and Lt. j.g. Donald Droz's PCF-43
— that carried Vietnamese Regional and Popular Force troops and a Navy
demolition team up the Dong Cung, a narrow tributary of the Bay Hap
River, to conduct a sweep in the area.

The approach of the noisy 50-foot aluminum boats, each driven by two
huge 12-cylinder diesels and loaded down with six crew members, troops
and gear, was no secret.

Ambushes were a virtual certainty, and that day was no exception.

The difference was that Kerry, who had tactical command of that
particular operation, had talked to Droz and me beforehand about not
responding the way the boats usually did to an ambush.

We agreed that if we were not crippled by the initial volley and had a
clear fix on the location of the ambush, we would turn directly into it,
focusing the boats' twin .50-caliber machine guns on the attackers and
beaching the boats. We told our crews about the plan.

The Viet Cong in the area had come to expect that the heavily loaded
boats would lumber on past an ambush, firing at the entrenched
attackers, beaching upstream and putting troops ashore to sweep back
down on the ambush site. Often, they were long gone by the time the
troops got there.

The first time we took fire — the usual rockets and automatic weapons —
Kerry ordered a "turn 90" and the three boats roared in on the ambush.
It worked. We routed the ambush, killing three of the attackers. The
troops, led by an Army advisor, jumped off the boats and began a sweep,
which killed another half-dozen VC, wounded or captured others and found
weapons, blast masks and other supplies used to stage ambushes.

Meanwhile, Kerry ordered our boat to head upstream with his, leaving
Droz's boat at the first site.

It happened again, another ambush. And again, Kerry ordered the turn
maneuver, and again it worked. As we headed for the riverbank, I
remember seeing a loaded B-40 launcher pointed at the boats. It wasn't
fired as two men jumped up from their spider holes.

We called Droz's boat up to assist us, and Kerry, followed by one member
of his crew, jumped ashore and chased a VC behind a hooch — a thatched
hut — maybe 15 yards inland from the ambush site. Some who were there
that day recall the man being wounded as he ran. Neither I nor Jerry
Leeds, our boat's leading petty officer with whom I've checked my
recollection of all these events, recalls that, which is no surprise.
Recollections of those who go through experiences like that frequently
differ.

With our troops involved in the sweep of the first ambush site, Richard
Lamberson, a member of my crew, and I also went ashore to search the
area. I was checking out the inside of the hooch when I heard gunfire
nearby.

Not long after that, Kerry returned, reporting that he had killed the
man he chased behind the hooch. He also had picked up a loaded B-40
rocket launcher, which we took back to our base in An Thoi after the
operation.

John O'Neill, author of a highly critical account of Kerry's Vietnam
service, describes the man Kerry chased as a "teenager in a loincloth."
I have no idea how old the gunner Kerry chased that day was, but both
Leeds and I recall that he was a grown man, dressed in the kind of garb
the VC usually wore.

The man Kerry chased was not the "lone" attacker at that site, as
O'Neill suggests. There were others who fled. There was also firing from
the tree line well behind the spider holes and at one point, from the
opposite riverbank as well. It was not the work of just one attacker.

Our initial reports of the day's action caused an immediate response
from our task force headquarters in Cam Ranh Bay.

Known over radio circuits by the call sign "Latch," then-Capt. and now
retired Rear Adm. Roy Hoffmann, the task force commander, fired off a
message congratulating the three Swift boats, saying at one point that
the tactic of charging the ambushes was a "shining example of completely
overwhelming the enemy" and that it "may be the most efficacious method
of dealing with small numbers of ambushers."

Hoffmann has become a leading critic of Kerry's and now says that what
the boats did on that day demonstrated Kerry's inclination to be
impulsive to a fault.

Our decision to use that tactic under the right circumstances was not
impulsive but was the result of discussions well beforehand and a mutual
agreement of all three boat officers.

It was also well within the aggressive tradition that was embraced by
the late Adm. Elmo Zumwalt, then commander of U.S. Naval Forces,
Vietnam. Months before that day in February, a fellow boat officer,
Michael Bernique, was summoned to Saigon to explain to top Navy
commanders why he had made an unauthorized run up the Giang Thanh River,
which runs along the Vietnam-Cambodia border. Bernique, who speaks
French fluently, had been told by a source in Ha Tien at the mouth of
the river that a VC tax collector was operating upstream.

Ignoring the prohibition against it, Bernique and his crew went upstream
and routed the VC, pursuing and killing several.

Instead of facing disciplinary action as he had expected, Bernique was
given the Silver Star, and Zumwalt ordered other Swifts, which had
largely patrolled coastal waters, into the rivers.

The decision sent a clear message, underscored repeatedly by Hoffmann's
congratulatory messages, that aggressive patrolling was expected and
that well-timed, if unconventional, tactics like Bernique's were encouraged.

What we did on Feb. 28, 1969, was well in line with the tone set by our
top commanders.

Zumwalt made that clear when he flew down to our base at An Thoi off the
southern tip of Vietnam to pin the Silver Star on Kerry and assorted
Bronze Stars and commendation medals on the rest of us.

My Bronze Star citation, signed by Zumwalt, praised the charge tactic we
used that day, saying the VC were "caught completely off guard."

There's at least one mistake in that citation. The name of the river
where the main action occurred is wrong, a reminder that such documents
were often done in haste, authored for their signers by staffers. It's a
cautionary note for those trying to piece it all together. There's no
final authority on something that happened so long ago — not the
documents and not even the strained recollections of those of us who
were there.

But I know that what some people are saying now is wrong. While they
mean to hurt Kerry, what they're saying impugns others who are not in
the public eye.

Men like Larry Lee, who was on our bow with an M-60 machine gun as we
charged the riverbank; Kenneth Martin, who was in the .50-caliber gun
tub atop our boat; and Benjamin Cueva, our engineman, who was at our aft
gun mount suppressing the fire from the opposite bank.

Wayne Langhoffer and the other crewmen on Droz's boat went through even
worse on April 12, 1969, when they saw Droz killed in a brutal ambush
that left PCF-43 an abandoned pile of wreckage on the banks of the Duong
Keo River. That was just a few months after the birth of his only child,
Tracy.

The survivors of all these events are scattered across the country now.

Jerry Leeds lives in a tiny Kansas town where he built and sold a
successful printing business. He owns a beautiful home with a lawn that
sweeps to the edge of a small lake, which he also owns. Every year,
flights of purple martins return to the stately birdhouses on the tall
poles in his backyard.

Cueva, recently retired, has raised three daughters and is beloved by
his neighbors for all the years he spent keeping their cars running. Lee
is a senior computer programmer in Kentucky, and Lamberson finished a
second military career in the Army.

With the debate over that long-ago day in February, they're all living
that war another time.

*

William Rood is night city editor at the Chicago Tribune; previously, he
was a reporter and an editor at the Los Angeles Times. Both publications
are owned by Tribune Co.


mahalo,
jo4hn