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Default Vegan children have stunted growth

It was in yesterday's Times. Apparently they have poor bones and they
are shorter than normal.
I suppose the authorities should pick up on this. But it's like FGM,
child abuse that's overlooked because a lot of people do it. However I
don't suppose vegans are regarded as being above the law like certain
other groups.

Bill
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On Sun, 6 Jun 2021 08:29:07 +0100, williamwright
wrote:

It was in yesterday's Times. Apparently they have poor bones and they
are shorter than normal.
I suppose the authorities should pick up on this. But it's like FGM,
child abuse that's overlooked because a lot of people do it. However I
don't suppose vegans are regarded as being above the law like certain
other groups.

Bill

Not sure about the poor bones, I usually just spit them out.
Being shorter though, now that might be a solution to the
overpopulation problem, if we can just make people smaller using
dietry means. Don't see how we're going to solve the problem
otherwise.
Yes, I know BIGGER is better... but just saying.
--

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Default Vegan children have stunted growth

On Sunday, June 6, 2021 at 8:29:11 AM UTC+1, wrote:
It was in yesterday's Times. Apparently they have poor bones and they
are shorter than normal.
I suppose the authorities should pick up on this. But it's like FGM,
child abuse that's overlooked because a lot of people do it. However I
don't suppose vegans are regarded as being above the law like certain
other groups.

Bill


And you think this association means ... what, exactly?

https://xkcd.com/552/
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On 06/06/2021 08:29, williamwright wrote:
It was in yesterday's Times. Apparently they have poor bones and they
are shorter than normal.
I suppose the authorities should pick up on this. But it's like FGM,
child abuse that's overlooked because a lot of people do it. However I
don't suppose vegans are regarded as being above the law like certain
other groups.

Bill


Veganism is just another crackpot religion, hence the sermons we
constantly get on this group about the subject

--
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Default Vegan children have stunted growth

On Sun, 6 Jun 2021 02:41:44 -0700 (PDT), jkn
wrote:

On Sunday, June 6, 2021 at 8:29:11 AM UTC+1, wrote:
It was in yesterday's Times. Apparently they have poor bones and they
are shorter than normal.
I suppose the authorities should pick up on this. But it's like FGM,
child abuse that's overlooked because a lot of people do it. However I
don't suppose vegans are regarded as being above the law like certain
other groups.

Bill


And you think this association means ... what, exactly?


1) It means Bill is now going to get a bolloking from all the netcops
for posting about veganism without marking it OT:

2) Bill doesn't care about any association, that wasn't why he posted.

3) Because Bill is so desperate to push his carnist agenda, he tries
to link feeding a child a vegan diet (as approved by the BDA and ADA),
with FGM, hoping it will sensationalise / link the two things.

4) Bill is obviously now suffering from the guilt created by his
actions (killing and eating innocent and sentient creatures (like
livestock)) with his morals that stops him killing and eating innocent
and sentient creatures (like his dogs).

4) Bill didn't include any link or reference as if he did, people
might also read things like:

"The number of vegans in Britain has quadrupled in four years to some
600,000, amid rising concerns over animal welfare and the
environment."

(So, human health is much more than just what people eat it also
includes things the level of pollution they have to live in and how
much food and water they have available).

"Lead author Professor Jonathan Wells, from UCL, said: 'We know that
people are increasingly being drawn to plant-based diets for several
reasons, including promoting animal welfare and reducing our impact on
the climate.

Indeed, a global shift towards plant-based diets is now recognised to
be crucial for preventing climate breakdown, and we strongly support
this effort.

We found that vegan children had lower bone mass even after accounting
for their smaller body and bone size. This means they may enter
adolescence, a phase when bone-specific nutrient needs are higher,
with a bone deficit already established.

If such deficits are caused by a diet that persists into adolescence,
this might increase the risk of adverse bone outcomes later in life."

(*IF* such deficits ... *MIGHT* ...)

"However, on the positive side, the vegan children had 25 per cent
lower levels of 'bad' LDL cholesterol and lower levels of body fat.

Co-author Dr Malgorzata Desmond said: 'We found the vegans had higher
intakes of nutrients that indicated an 'unprocessed' type of plant
-based diet, which is in turn linked to lower body fat and better
cardiovascular risk profile."

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...R-average.html

https://www.ucl.ac.uk/child-health/n...e-growth-risks

One thing that generally happens when people go vegan and follow a
vegan diet is that they actually start taking notice of the things
they eat and often discover a whole range of high protein, high
nutrient, high fibre food stuffs that can easily be included in your
diet in an unrefined / unprocessed form.

Anything has to be better than a diet of 'chicken nuggets' and chips.

Personally, I would rather my child was 3cm shorter at some arbitrary
time in their life but live a longer life and not die of bowel cancer
[1], heart disease way before they are old enough to possibly suffer
the other non-life-threatening issues that *might* exist.

https://xkcd.com/552/


Quite.

The good thing though is that it shows that my discussions here aren't
going un-considered, even by the carnists and if Bill ends up learning
a bit more about veganism and *all* the facets it covers, that can
only be a good thing (and not for me specifically of course, but
certainly millions of innocent sentient creatures, the environment and
human health).

Cheers, T i m

[1] Step daughter died at 39 of bowel cancer and loved her processed
meats and was never a big consumer of fruit and veg.



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Default Vegan children have stunted growth

On 06/06/2021 10:41, jkn wrote:
On Sunday, June 6, 2021 at 8:29:11 AM UTC+1, wrote:
It was in yesterday's Times. Apparently they have poor bones and they
are shorter than normal.
I suppose the authorities should pick up on this. But it's like FGM,
child abuse that's overlooked because a lot of people do it. However I
don't suppose vegans are regarded as being above the law like certain
other groups.

Bill


And you think this association means ... what, exactly?

https://xkcd.com/552/


BLM trumps VLM?
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Default Vegan children have stunted growth

On 06/06/2021 12:17, T i m wrote:
On Sun, 6 Jun 2021 02:41:44 -0700 (PDT), jkn
wrote:

On Sunday, June 6, 2021 at 8:29:11 AM UTC+1, wrote:
It was in yesterday's Times. Apparently they have poor bones and they
are shorter than normal.
I suppose the authorities should pick up on this. But it's like FGM,
child abuse that's overlooked because a lot of people do it. However I
don't suppose vegans are regarded as being above the law like certain
other groups.

Bill


And you think this association means ... what, exactly?


1) It means Bill is now going to get a bolloking from all the netcops
for posting about veganism without marking it OT:

2) Bill doesn't care about any association, that wasn't why he posted.

3) Because Bill is so desperate to push his carnist agenda, he tries
to link feeding a child a vegan diet (as approved by the BDA and ADA),
with FGM, hoping it will sensationalise / link the two things.


If he's anything like me he cares for his family and doesn't want his
family is disadvantaged by force-feeding children a diet that will harm
them.

4) Bill is obviously now suffering from the guilt created by his
actions (killing and eating innocent and sentient creatures (like
livestock)) with his morals that stops him killing and eating innocent
and sentient creatures (like his dogs).


Just because you feel guilt eating animals doesn't mean we do.

4) Bill didn't include any link or reference as if he did, people
might also read things like:


Try this one:

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/2...r-intelligence

There are others. With the increase number of vegans there is more
concern over the damage it causes children. It's good to see common
sense tends to prevail:

https://qz.com/1622642/making-your-k...me-in-belgium/

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Default Vegan children have stunted growth

On 06/06/2021 11:54, alan_m wrote:
On 06/06/2021 08:29, williamwright wrote:
It was in yesterday's Times. Apparently they have poor bones and they
are shorter than normal.
I suppose the authorities should pick up on this. But it's like FGM,
child abuse that's overlooked because a lot of people do it. However I
don't suppose vegans are regarded as being above the law like certain
other groups.

Bill


Veganism is just another crackpot religion, hence the sermons we
constantly get on this group about the subject


There is nothing wrong with veganism, or indeed any blind faith. It
becomes wrong when pressure is applied through abusing or forcing others
who don't conform. It then becomes fanaticism, aka crackpot cult/religion.

T i m does a great disservice to genuine vegans who follow their own
personal beliefs without trying to impose them on others.


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Default Vegan children have stunted growth

On Sun, 6 Jun 2021 11:54:34 +0100, alan_m
wrote:

snip

Veganism is just another crackpot religion,


Aww bless. Ok, let's replace the word 'veganism' with 'not being cruel
to and killing animals' and 'religion / beliefs' with 'fact' and see
how you then sound. That's right, 'like a nutter'! ;-)

hence the sermons


Advocacy, as happened to end slavery, to give women the vote, to end
racism, more things I'm sure people like you preferred others had kept
quiet about.

we
constantly get on this group about the subject


And that you have no obligation to read let alone reply to, unless
your inability to refrain is the same as that from causing pain,
suffering, exploitation and death to innocent animals of course?

And what about the pollution to the environment the livestock cause
that affects *everyone*, I'm guessing you don't care about that
either, or the fact that what we are doing re food isn't sustainable?

Or all the habitat loss leading to species loss, probably 'not your
problem' either (other than you are causing it of course), till some
animal you like to eat goes extinct of course.

Luckily more and more people *do* care about such things and are
actually doing something about it, for the benefit of everyone (other
than those making a living from the death and exploitation of animals
of course).

Cheers, T i m
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On 06/06/2021 11:17, T i m wrote:

On Sunday, June 6, 2021 at 8:29:11 AM UTC+1, wrote:


It was in yesterday's Times. Apparently they have poor bones and they
are shorter than normal.


I suppose the authorities should pick up on this. But it's like FGM,
child abuse that's overlooked because a lot of people do it. However I
don't suppose vegans are regarded as being above the law like certain
other groups.


Personally, I would rather my child was 3cm shorter at some arbitrary
time in their life


You like making choices for other sentient beings, don't you, especially
those that can't answer back.

but live a longer life and not die of bowel cancer


To which authority does one apply to have this choice enforced?

--
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On 06/06/2021 14:35, T i m wrote:

Or all the habitat loss leading to species loss, probably 'not your
problem' either (other than you are causing it of course), till some
animal you like to eat goes extinct of course.


You forgot to mention habitat loss due to growing crops for vegans.

--
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On 06/06/2021 11:54, alan_m wrote:
On 06/06/2021 08:29, williamwright wrote:
It was in yesterday's Times. Apparently they have poor bones and they
are shorter than normal.
I suppose the authorities should pick up on this. But it's like FGM,
child abuse that's overlooked because a lot of people do it. However I
don't suppose vegans are regarded as being above the law like certain
other groups.

Bill


Veganism is just another crackpot religion, hence the sermons we
constantly get on this group about the subject



And they are not very good at stats.

https://trulyexperiences.com/blog/ve...uk-statistics/


If I was making stats up I would at least try to make them look credible.


--
Adam
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On 06/06/2021 17:13, ARW wrote:
On 06/06/2021 11:54, alan_m wrote:
On 06/06/2021 08:29, williamwright wrote:
It was in yesterday's Times. Apparently they have poor bones and they
are shorter than normal.
I suppose the authorities should pick up on this. But it's like FGM,
child abuse that's overlooked because a lot of people do it. However
I don't suppose vegans are regarded as being above the law like
certain other groups.

Bill


Veganism is just another crackpot religion, hence the sermons we
constantly get on this group about the subject



And they are not very good at stats.

https://trulyexperiences.com/blog/ve...uk-statistics/


If I was making stats up I would at least try to make them look credible.


I liked the bit:

* 7.2 million British adults currently follow a meat-free diet
* 262,000 more men than women dont consume meat (7.2 million vs 7 million)

Of course meat free doesn't mean vegan.

It is true that 82% of statistics are made up in the spot.
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On Sun, 6 Jun 2021 15:15:40 +0000, Spike
wrote:

On 06/06/2021 14:35, T i m wrote:

Or all the habitat loss leading to species loss, probably 'not your
problem' either (other than you are causing it of course), till some
animal you like to eat goes extinct of course.


You forgot to mention habitat loss due to growing crops for vegans.


Ah yes, thanks, crops that yield more food than using the same land to
feed livestock (directly or indirectly).

And we don't need the crap land to still be able to feed everyone,
that can be re-wilded.

Cheers, T i m
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Default Vegan children have stunted growth



"Richard Treen" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 6 Jun 2021 08:29:07 +0100, williamwright
wrote:

It was in yesterday's Times. Apparently they have poor bones and they
are shorter than normal.
I suppose the authorities should pick up on this. But it's like FGM,
child abuse that's overlooked because a lot of people do it. However I
don't suppose vegans are regarded as being above the law like certain
other groups.

Bill

Not sure about the poor bones, I usually just spit them out.
Being shorter though, now that might be a solution to the
overpopulation problem, if we can just make people smaller using
dietry means.


Don't see how we're going to solve the problem otherwise.


That 'problem' is fixing itself. EVERY country has seen the birth rate
dropping dramatically except where its already right down in the noise.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...#1950_and_2015

And China and India COMBINED, by far the two most
populous countrys isnt even self replacing now.

Yes, I know BIGGER is better... but just saying.





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On 06/06/2021 18:25, T i m wrote:
On Sun, 6 Jun 2021 15:15:40 +0000, Spike
wrote:

On 06/06/2021 14:35, T i m wrote:

Or all the habitat loss leading to species loss, probably 'not your
problem' either (other than you are causing it of course), till some
animal you like to eat goes extinct of course.


You forgot to mention habitat loss due to growing crops for vegans.


Ah yes, thanks, crops that yield more food than using the same land to
feed livestock (directly or indirectly).


But often extensive use of the soil for vegetable crops is destroying
the soil structure. Where I'm currently staying I can see very high
hillsides with fields growing grass and are full of sheep. I wonder what
the state of this environment would be if the land was reallocated to
just growing crops for vegan food.


--
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On 06/06/2021 18:23, Fredxx wrote:
On 06/06/2021 17:13, ARW wrote:
On 06/06/2021 11:54, alan_m wrote:
On 06/06/2021 08:29, williamwright wrote:
It was in yesterday's Times. Apparently they have poor bones and
they are shorter than normal.
I suppose the authorities should pick up on this. But it's like FGM,
child abuse that's overlooked because a lot of people do it. However
I don't suppose vegans are regarded as being above the law like
certain other groups.

Bill

Veganism is just another crackpot religion, hence the sermons we
constantly get on this group about the subject



And they are not very good at stats.

https://trulyexperiences.com/blog/ve...uk-statistics/


If I was making stats up I would at least try to make them look credible.


I liked the bit:

* 7.2 million British adults currently follow a meat-free diet
* 262,000 more men than women dont consume meat (7.2 million vs 7 million)

Of course meat free doesn't mean vegan.

It is true that 82% of statistics are made up in the spot.



50% of Brits know someone that is vegan.

Personally I would tattoo the ****ers for target practice of a knuckle
sandwich.







--
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In article , Fredxx wrote:
On 06/06/2021 17:13, ARW wrote:
On 06/06/2021 11:54, alan_m wrote:
On 06/06/2021 08:29, williamwright wrote:
It was in yesterday's Times. Apparently they have poor bones and they
are shorter than normal. I suppose the authorities should pick up on
this. But it's like FGM, child abuse that's overlooked because a lot
of people do it. However I don't suppose vegans are regarded as
being above the law like certain other groups.

Bill

Veganism is just another crackpot religion, hence the sermons we
constantly get on this group about the subject



And they are not very good at stats.

https://trulyexperiences.com/blog/ve...uk-statistics/


If I was making stats up I would at least try to make them look
credible.


I liked the bit:


* 7.2 million British adults currently follow a meat-free diet * 262,000
more men than women don‘t consume meat (7.2 million vs 7 million)


Of course meat free doesn't mean vegan.


It is true that 82% of statistics are made up in the spot.


a great many years ago, Prince Philip said that there were only 3
statistics that mattered and theyb were vital.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle
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On Sunday, June 6, 2021 at 6:48:30 PM UTC+1, charles wrote:

a great many years ago, Prince Philip said that there were only 3
statistics that mattered and theyb were vital.

--

Something has always puzzled me about people who follow proscriptive diets (vegan, halal, kosher, etc).

If a such a person invites me to dinner, they will no doubt serve me their preferred type of food and I will probably enjoy it thoroughly.

On the other hand, if I offer return hospitality, I will be expected to research new recipes, shop for unfamiliar ingredients and stress over creating dishes I've never made before rather than relax in good company with food I'm accustomed to cooking and which reflects my way of life. If I don't do all of that, the chances are the diet-follower will be mortally offended and thus will end the friendship.

Hey, I like some vegan/kosher/halal dishes. Why can you not be broad minded enough to try some of mine, too?

(I feel I should add here that, of course, if a dinner guest has an allergy or other health condition which precludes certain foods, then I will do my utmost to ensure the offending item(s) has no place on the table. Nothing kills a dinner party quicker than killing a guest.)

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Default More Improvised Bull**** by the Senile "Expert" in Everything!

On Mon, 7 Jun 2021 03:30:14 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH the trolling senile asshole's latest troll**** unread

--
John addressing the senile Australian pest:
"You are a complete idiot. But you make me larf. LOL"
MID:


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On Sun, 6 Jun 2021 18:32:34 +0100, alan_m
wrote:

On 06/06/2021 18:25, T i m wrote:
On Sun, 6 Jun 2021 15:15:40 +0000, Spike
wrote:

On 06/06/2021 14:35, T i m wrote:

Or all the habitat loss leading to species loss, probably 'not your
problem' either (other than you are causing it of course), till some
animal you like to eat goes extinct of course.

You forgot to mention habitat loss due to growing crops for vegans.


Ah yes, thanks, crops that yield more food than using the same land to
feed livestock (directly or indirectly).


But often extensive use of the soil for vegetable crops is destroying
the soil structure.


It certainly is in the Amazon and all the other areas that are being
cleared primarily to feed *livestock*.

Many of those environments have evolved over the years to *only* be
self sufficient *because* of what grew there. Cut it all down and
plant for animal feed and the soil is exhausted very quickly.

Where I'm currently staying I can see very high
hillsides with fields growing grass and are full of sheep.


I wonder what was there before the grass? Chances are, trees,
absorbing CO2, something we are going back to in many places.

I wonder what
the state of this environment would be if the land was reallocated to
just growing crops for vegan food.


It wouldn't be, we don't need to, it would be re-wilded.

And it's not 'vegan food', it's 'food' as everyone can eat it (and
they have been for thousands of years).

Cheers, T i m

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Scribbles wrote:
On Sunday, June 6, 2021 at 6:48:30 PM UTC+1, charles wrote:

a great many years ago, Prince Philip said that there were only 3
statistics that mattered and theyb were vital.

--

Something has always puzzled me about people who follow proscriptive
diets (vegan, halal, kosher, etc).

If a such a person invites me to dinner, they will no doubt serve me
their preferred type of food and I will probably enjoy it thoroughly.

On the other hand, if I offer return hospitality, I will be expected to
research new recipes, shop for unfamiliar ingredients and stress over
creating dishes I've never made before rather than relax in good company
with food I'm accustomed to cooking and which reflects my way of life.
If I don't do all of that, the chances are the diet-follower will be
mortally offended and thus will end the friendship.

Hey, I like some vegan/kosher/halal dishes. Why can you not be broad
minded enough to try some of mine, too?

(I feel I should add here that, of course, if a dinner guest has an
allergy or other health condition which precludes certain foods, then I
will do my utmost to ensure the offending item(s) has no place on the
table. Nothing kills a dinner party quicker than killing a guest.)



This is one of my biggest bugbears. The only thing stopping vegans being
€śnormal€ť guests is their inability to compromise. Id have a lot more
respect for folk on self imposed restrictive diets if they followed normal
social codes and compromised when theyre guests.

Tim

--
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On 06/06/2021 18:32, alan_m wrote:
On 06/06/2021 18:25, T i m wrote:
On Sun, 6 Jun 2021 15:15:40 +0000, Spike
wrote:

On 06/06/2021 14:35, T i m wrote:

Or all the habitat loss leading to species loss, probably 'not your
problem' either (other than you are causing it of course), till some
animal you like to eat goes extinct of course.

You forgot to mention habitat loss due to growing crops for vegans.


Ah yes, thanks, crops that yield more food than using the same land to
feed livestock (directly or indirectly).


But often extensive use of the soil for vegetable crops is destroying
the soil structure. Where I'm currently staying I can see very high
hillsides with fields growing grass and are full of sheep. I wonder what
the state of this environment would be if the land was reallocated to
just growing crops for vegan food.


In many cases it wouldn't economically feasible. Land used for sheep
farming is usually difficult to grow crops on. It would simple revert to
disused pasture.

Then of course more land would be required to farm plant food. Leading
to more Amazonian rainforest felled for industrial processes making tofu.



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On 06/06/2021 16:15, Spike wrote:
On 06/06/2021 14:35, T i m wrote:

Or all the habitat loss leading to species loss, probably 'not your
problem' either (other than you are causing it of course), till some
animal you like to eat goes extinct of course.


You forgot to mention habitat loss due to growing crops for vegans.


And for "bio fuel"

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On 06/06/2021 19:11, T i m wrote:
On Sun, 6 Jun 2021 18:32:34 +0100, alan_m
wrote:

On 06/06/2021 18:25, T i m wrote:
On Sun, 6 Jun 2021 15:15:40 +0000, Spike
wrote:

On 06/06/2021 14:35, T i m wrote:

Or all the habitat loss leading to species loss, probably 'not your
problem' either (other than you are causing it of course), till some
animal you like to eat goes extinct of course.

You forgot to mention habitat loss due to growing crops for vegans.

Ah yes, thanks, crops that yield more food than using the same land to
feed livestock (directly or indirectly).


But often extensive use of the soil for vegetable crops is destroying
the soil structure.


It certainly is in the Amazon and all the other areas that are being
cleared primarily to feed *livestock*.


No, demand is rising to grow soy by plant eaters.

Many of those environments have evolved over the years to *only* be
self sufficient *because* of what grew there. Cut it all down and
plant for animal feed and the soil is exhausted very quickly.


Cut it down to satisfy users of synthetic meat and the soil is exhausted
very quickly.

Where I'm currently staying I can see very high
hillsides with fields growing grass and are full of sheep.


I wonder what was there before the grass? Chances are, trees,
absorbing CO2, something we are going back to in many places.


Probably bare hills.

I wonder what
the state of this environment would be if the land was reallocated to
just growing crops for vegan food.


It wouldn't be, we don't need to, it would be re-wilded.


So less food overall, so this is all envy we're allowed to eat meat and
you're not. If you were worried about efficient land use, wilding it is
hardly a solution to your imaginary problem.

And it's not 'vegan food', it's 'food' as everyone can eat it (and
they have been for thousands of years).


Quite, and we've cooked and eaten meat for thousands of years, as well
as evolving the gene to digest milk.


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On 06/06/2021 19:07, Scribbles wrote:
On Sunday, June 6, 2021 at 6:48:30 PM UTC+1, charles wrote:

a great many years ago, Prince Philip said that there were only 3
statistics that mattered and theyb were vital.

--

Something has always puzzled me about people who follow proscriptive
diets (vegan, halal, kosher, etc).

If a such a person invites me to dinner, they will no doubt serve me
their preferred type of food and I will probably enjoy it
thoroughly.

On the other hand, if I offer return hospitality, I will be expected
to research new recipes, shop for unfamiliar ingredients and stress
over creating dishes I've never made before rather than relax in good
company with food I'm accustomed to cooking and which reflects my way
of life. If I don't do all of that, the chances are the
diet-follower will be mortally offended and thus will end the
friendship.

Hey, I like some vegan/kosher/halal dishes. Why can you not be broad
minded enough to try some of mine, too?

(I feel I should add here that, of course, if a dinner guest has an
allergy or other health condition which precludes certain foods, then
I will do my utmost to ensure the offending item(s) has no place on
the table. Nothing kills a dinner party quicker than killing a
guest.)


I respect others' 'diets' I just wish they might respect mine.


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On Sun, 6 Jun 2021 11:07:15 -0700 (PDT), Scribbles
wrote:

On Sunday, June 6, 2021 at 6:48:30 PM UTC+1, charles wrote:

a great many years ago, Prince Philip said that there were only 3
statistics that mattered and theyb were vital.

--

Something has always puzzled me about people who follow proscriptive diets (vegan, halal, kosher, etc).


OK ...

If a such a person invites me to dinner, they will no doubt serve me their preferred type of food and I will probably enjoy it thoroughly.


Not necessarily, but even if it was the case, what is there in
non-meat / egg / dairy food that you can't eat?

On the other hand, if I offer return hospitality, I will be expected to research new recipes,


If you want to offer them such hospitality yes, but are you saying you
have never cooked and eaten veg, or had a salad, or Quorn?

shop for unfamiliar ingredients and stress over creating dishes I've never made


If it's that much stress, don't invite them for a meal, or ask them if
they would prefer to bring non meat / egg / milk based food in?

I'm sure if they were really friends they would prefer that than you
getting all hot under the collar over it?

before rather than relax in good company with food I'm accustomed to cooking and which reflects my way of life.


But isn't innocent of taking another creatures life, whereas their
choice is.

If I don't do all of that, the chances are the diet-follower will be mortally offended and thus will end the friendship.


Then I think you need to find better friends.

Hey, I like some vegan/kosher/halal dishes.


Well, the chances are you have been eating plenty of 'vegan food' all
your life. ;-)

Why can you not be broad minded enough to try some of mine, too?


Because you are making the mistake about what it is you can eat (or if
it's animals, how it's killed) when it's all about what you shouldn't
(want to) or don't need to eat.

The chances are that your vegan friends weren't raised vegan and have
chosen that lifestyle / diet since, so they know very well what meat /
eggs / milk taste like and probably enjoyed it, just that now they
prefer their food without all the associated death and suffering?

They are inviting you out for a game of tennis.
You are inviting them out foxhunting, not golf.

(I feel I should add here that, of course, if a dinner guest has an allergy or other health condition which precludes certain foods, then I will do my utmost to ensure the offending item(s) has no place on the table.


So you would be happy to cater for them and their accidental food
aversions but not some they choose themselves?

Nothing kills a dinner party quicker than killing a guest.)


I'll take your word for that. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

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On 6 Jun 2021 18:13:52 GMT, Tim+ wrote:

snip

This is one of my biggest bugbears. The only thing stopping vegans being
“normal” guests is their inability to compromise.


Really, you find their not wanting the blood of an innocent creature
on their hands confusing, when it's completely avoidable?

I’d have a lot more
respect for folk on self imposed restrictive diets


Or 'more humane and compassionate / healthy / ecological' lifestyles?

The irony is that you should be happy they still respect you!

if they followed normal
social codes and compromised when they’re guests.


See elsewhere.

They are inviting you round for a game of cards.
You are inviting them round for some dog fighting, not chess.

Cheers, T i m
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On Sun, 6 Jun 2021 19:26:39 +0100, Andrew
wrote:

On 06/06/2021 16:15, Spike wrote:
On 06/06/2021 14:35, T i m wrote:

Or all the habitat loss leading to species loss, probably 'not your
problem' either (other than you are causing it of course), till some
animal you like to eat goes extinct of course.


You forgot to mention habitat loss due to growing crops for vegans.


And for "bio fuel"


Nope, it's the exact same issue.

There is enough arable land to grow enough food to feed the entire
world population 1.5x over.

If we weren't 'wasting space' to grow food for livestock, we could be
using that space for growing other stuff, inc biofuels.

Cheers, T i m
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T i m wrote:
On Sun, 6 Jun 2021 11:07:15 -0700 (PDT), Scribbles


Why can you not be broad minded enough to try some of mine, too?


Because you are making the mistake about what it is you can eat (or if
it's animals, how it's killed) when it's all about what you shouldn't
(want to) or don't need to eat.


I see. YOU decide its a mistake and force hosts to accommodate your eating
choices? I know perfectly well what I CAN eat. You choose to be
€śanti-social€ť (as in conforming to normal societal rules) and insist that
the world changes to accommodate you.


The chances are that your vegan friends weren't raised vegan and have
chosen that lifestyle / diet since, so they know very well what meat /
eggs / milk taste like and probably enjoyed it, just that now they
prefer their food without all the associated death and suffering?

They are inviting you out for a game of tennis.
You are inviting them out foxhunting, not golf.


When you equate eating a diet that we evolved on (and made us who we are
today) with killing for sport, it just reveals your fanaticism.

Tim


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On 06/06/2021 20:06, T i m wrote:


There is enough arable land to grow enough food to feed the entire
world population 1.5x over.


Only if the diet of people in richer countries was lowered to match the
diet of people in poorer countries - no great variety in food and no
substitute meat products for vegans.

However, you seem to be also advocating "re-greening" of the countryside
and more sustainable farming (aka low productivity farming).


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On Sun, 6 Jun 2021 20:22:13 +0100, alan_m
wrote:

On 06/06/2021 20:06, T i m wrote:


There is enough arable land to grow enough food to feed the entire
world population 1.5x over.


Only if the diet of people in richer countries was lowered to match the
diet of people in poorer countries


Nope, as it stands now, unless you are trying to conflate content bias
with nutritional quality? I haven't since going vegan and have no
plans in the future ... to eat foods that I don't enjoy.

What I have done (at minor initial inconvenience) is stop eating
things I shouldn't have been eating in the first place so I've not
*stopped* eating anything (I should).

- no great variety in food and no
substitute meat products for vegans.


What is all this 'substitute for meat' stuff? You talk of it like it's
some elixir or multivitamin and it's neither. It's consumption is one
of the current biggest causes of heard disease, bowel / colon cancer
and diabetes and why ALL the medial health practitioners recommend you
cut down on meat and increase the consumption of fruit, veg, nuts etc.
I'm not aware of anyone being advise to cut down on their intake of
fruit and veg (other than people going OTT with fruit smoothies etc).

However, you seem to be also advocating "re-greening" of the countryside
and more sustainable farming (aka low productivity farming).


I'm not, I'm not a farmer, the scientists and farmers are because they
know what we are doing is both destructive and unsustainable.

Ok, when did we do for *thousands* of years before we had the means to
artificially fertilise the land? A, 'crop rotation', just the act of
leaving a field to go fallow for one in four years (or somesuch,
remembering it from school) is enough to keep the land fertile.

Plus, someone developed a fertiliser that was (blind) tested by a
specialist in the field and he determined it was the best quality
fertiliser he'd ever seen. It was made from plant waste.

Cheers, T i m

p.s. I have a mate who is a big meat eater and who has to regularly
take stuff (like Fybogel, doctors orders) to keep him 'moving' (for
risk of something more serious). The chances are, that would happen
naturally (and more naturally) if he ate less meat and more fruit /
veg.
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On 06/06/2021 20:06, T i m wrote:
On Sun, 6 Jun 2021 19:26:39 +0100, Andrew
wrote:

On 06/06/2021 16:15, Spike wrote:
On 06/06/2021 14:35, T i m wrote:

Or all the habitat loss leading to species loss, probably 'not your
problem' either (other than you are causing it of course), till some
animal you like to eat goes extinct of course.

You forgot to mention habitat loss due to growing crops for vegans.


And for "bio fuel"


Nope, it's the exact same issue.

There is enough arable land to grow enough food to feed the entire
world population 1.5x over.


Some say more than that.

If we weren't 'wasting space' to grow food for livestock, we could be
using that space for growing other stuff, inc biofuels.


No, the population would simply grow to match the food source.
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On 06/06/2021 20:02, T i m wrote:
On 6 Jun 2021 18:13:52 GMT, Tim+ wrote:

snip

This is one of my biggest bugbears. The only thing stopping vegans being
€śnormal€ť guests is their inability to compromise.


Really, you find their not wanting the blood of an innocent creature
on their hands confusing, when it's completely avoidable?


After preparing and cooking there would be no blood. More likely some
splashed gravy.

Id have a lot more
respect for folk on self imposed restrictive diets


Or 'more humane and compassionate / healthy / ecological' lifestyles?


By improving animal welfare, something that is independent on whether
guests are vegan or not.

The irony is that you should be happy they still respect you!


I don't respect fanatics. I don't expect any respect from a fanatic in
return.

if they followed normal
social codes and compromised when theyre guests.


See elsewhere.


Quite.

They are inviting you round for a game of cards.
You are inviting them round for some dog fighting, not chess.


Nope, only a sicko would think inviting guests round for a meal is
equivalent to dog fighting.

You are sick, get help.
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On 6 Jun 2021 19:17:14 GMT, Tim+ wrote:

T i m wrote:
On Sun, 6 Jun 2021 11:07:15 -0700 (PDT), Scribbles


Why can you not be broad minded enough to try some of mine, too?


Because you are making the mistake about what it is you can eat (or if
it's animals, how it's killed) when it's all about what you shouldn't
(want to) or don't need to eat.


I see.


I doubt it very much! ;-)

YOU decide it’s a mistake and force hosts to accommodate your eating
choices?


Nope, who is forcing anything on anyone?

I know perfectly well what I CAN eat.


I'm sure you do, even if it's not good for you, the animals, the other
humans or the planet.

You choose to be
“anti-social” (as in conforming to normal societal rules) and insist that
the world changes to accommodate you.


Only the world as you see it today. It's not my world or a world we
*will* all be living in in the future.


The chances are that your vegan friends weren't raised vegan and have
chosen that lifestyle / diet since, so they know very well what meat /
eggs / milk taste like and probably enjoyed it, just that now they
prefer their food without all the associated death and suffering?

They are inviting you out for a game of tennis.
You are inviting them out foxhunting, not golf.


When you equate eating a diet that we evolved on (and made us who we are
today) with killing for sport, it just reveals your fanaticism.


Whoosh. It's funny how a simple but accurate analogy confuses people
who are already very confused.

The analogy should have said it all, but 'of course' you won't want to
consider it because you haven't yet got that it is you that *IS* the
foxhuner and the others not.

Just because we have done something doesn't mean it's right (now or
ever) to have done it. All you can say is that 'it's what we once did'
and need not have any greater relevance or bearing other than that.

So, if you invite *anyone* round and offer them a glass of water the
chances are 'most people' would be willing / able to drink it. Offer
them a glass of wine, a beer, tea with milk or sugar and you are now
*assuming* they should drink it, just because you or 'most people' do.

Just because 'most people' currently eat meat (although *millions of
people don't for all sorts of reasons), doesn't mean that of all the
'social norms' should or would be acceptable to everyone (when it
obviously isn't).

There is no one I know that if invited round for 'a meal' wouldn't eat
and hopefully enjoy most of the vegan meals I cook and none of them
could tell me that for religious, cultural, allergy or any other
reason that the meal *must* include meat?

A council has stipulated that all it's buffets should be vegan because
in that case *everyone* can eat them. No faffing about with how some
poor animal has been killied or if it's fish, foul, hooven or 'dirty'.

Cheers, T i m


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On 06/06/2021 20:40, T i m wrote:
On Sun, 6 Jun 2021 20:22:13 +0100, alan_m
wrote:

On 06/06/2021 20:06, T i m wrote:


There is enough arable land to grow enough food to feed the entire
world population 1.5x over.


Only if the diet of people in richer countries was lowered to match the
diet of people in poorer countries


Nope, as it stands now, unless you are trying to conflate content bias
with nutritional quality? I haven't since going vegan and have no
plans in the future ... to eat foods that I don't enjoy.


Yet, by your own admission you pass a kebab shop a crave eating a kebab.

Any deterioration in health through a vegan diet is slow, you won't
notice the effects over an extended period of time. For B12 it can take
years.

What I have done (at minor initial inconvenience) is stop eating
things I shouldn't have been eating in the first place so I've not
*stopped* eating anything (I should).


We evolved to cook and eat meat, and to digest milk. We should be eating
food we have evolved to eat.

- no great variety in food and no
substitute meat products for vegans.


What is all this 'substitute for meat' stuff? You talk of it like it's
some elixir or multivitamin and it's neither.


It is something you have mentioned numerous times. You had tofurkey for
christmas

It's consumption is one
of the current biggest causes of heard disease, bowel / colon cancer
and diabetes and why ALL the medial health practitioners recommend you
cut down on meat and increase the consumption of fruit, veg, nuts etc.


Yes, we should cut down on meat and processed foods, but for a healthy
diet we should still consume the foods we have evolved to consume.

I'm not aware of anyone being advise to cut down on their intake of
fruit and veg (other than people going OTT with fruit smoothies etc).


There are numerous articles on eating sugar laden fruit and of course
smoothies.
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On 06/06/2021 20:54, T i m wrote:
On 6 Jun 2021 19:17:14 GMT, Tim+ wrote:

T i m wrote:
On Sun, 6 Jun 2021 11:07:15 -0700 (PDT), Scribbles


Why can you not be broad minded enough to try some of mine, too?

Because you are making the mistake about what it is you can eat (or if
it's animals, how it's killed) when it's all about what you shouldn't
(want to) or don't need to eat.


I see.


I doubt it very much! ;-)

YOU decide its a mistake and force hosts to accommodate your eating
choices?


Nope, who is forcing anything on anyone?

I know perfectly well what I CAN eat.


I'm sure you do, even if it's not good for you, the animals, the other
humans or the planet.

You choose to be
€śanti-social€ť (as in conforming to normal societal rules) and insist that
the world changes to accommodate you.


Only the world as you see it today. It's not my world or a world we
*will* all be living in in the future.


The chances are that your vegan friends weren't raised vegan and have
chosen that lifestyle / diet since, so they know very well what meat /
eggs / milk taste like and probably enjoyed it, just that now they
prefer their food without all the associated death and suffering?

They are inviting you out for a game of tennis.
You are inviting them out foxhunting, not golf.


When you equate eating a diet that we evolved on (and made us who we are
today) with killing for sport, it just reveals your fanaticism.


Whoosh. It's funny how a simple but accurate analogy confuses people
who are already very confused.


It's not an analogy. There is no confusion.

The analogy should have said it all, but 'of course' you won't want to
consider it because you haven't yet got that it is you that *IS* the
foxhuner and the others not.

Just because we have done something doesn't mean it's right (now or
ever) to have done it. All you can say is that 'it's what we once did'
and need not have any greater relevance or bearing other than that.


When it comes to a natural wholesome diet, and the known damage it does
to children it is extremely relevant.

So, if you invite *anyone* round and offer them a glass of water the
chances are 'most people' would be willing / able to drink it. Offer
them a glass of wine, a beer, tea with milk or sugar and you are now
*assuming* they should drink it, just because you or 'most people' do.

Just because 'most people' currently eat meat (although *millions of
people don't for all sorts of reasons), doesn't mean that of all the
'social norms' should or would be acceptable to everyone (when it
obviously isn't).


It is a social norm to accept hospitality.

There is no one I know that if invited round for 'a meal' wouldn't eat
and hopefully enjoy most of the vegan meals I cook and none of them
could tell me that for religious, cultural, allergy or any other
reason that the meal *must* include meat?


I'm sure I would enjoy a meal you cooked for me too. That isn't the
issue here.

A council has stipulated that all it's buffets should be vegan because
in that case *everyone* can eat them. No faffing about with how some
poor animal has been killied or if it's fish, foul, hooven or 'dirty'.


Some gluten sensitive friends would disagree with the "everyone can eat
them".

Personally I would ensure all diets are considered, perhaps apart from
strict religious requirements, but certainly wouldn't pander to a
fanatic's desire to force all attendees to eat plant food.
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On 6 Jun 2021 21:13:02 GMT, Tim Streater
wrote:

snip

This is one of my biggest bugbears. The only thing stopping vegans being
“normal” guests is their inability to compromise. I’d have a lot more
respect for folk on self imposed restrictive diets if they followed normal
social codes and compromised when they’re guests.


ITYM unwilling.


Nope, simply not an (ethical) option. See, some people do have ethics
and stick by them.

They're not unable, at all.


Of course they are, just as likely you would be if they brought in a
live rabbit for you to kill, prep and cook for you all.

There are selfish ****s who expect
you to put yourself out for them.


I doubt it very much. More like you being an arrogant **** who wants
to force his views on a guest / guests (of all people).

I wouldn't,


Of course you wouldn't, you are a Goblin and devoid of any humility.

although SWMBO would, given
notice.


She could (easily) have done better (than you).

We had a relly visit once who was coming for dinner. He phoned when
the grub was already cooking (FFS!) to announce that (1) he was bringing the
g/f and that (2) she was a veggie.


Was it 'likely' that the food would already be cooking when he phoned?
What sort of meal was he 'expecting'? I wouldn't 'expect' people to
make a big fuss and if you were already cooking 6 hours before the
dinner time I wouldn't have thought that 'excessive' (when a sandwich
would have been fine).

That didn't go down at all well, with
either of us.


Aww bless. I bet you wrote and angry letter to your MP didn't you and
it upset your whole year?

But then he had form for being thoughtless.


Then that could set a precedence and you might have been ready for the
outcome that happened and made something suitable (like a stew or
curry). If he was 'known' to be like that I would have eaten when
agreed (if I was hungry at that time) and he / they could have had
eaten whatever you could be bothered to prepare (or order in) when
he/they arrived. Or 'it's in the kitchen, help yourselves'.

Have you never had someone 'pop in' and fed them, or does it always
have to be arranged weeks in advance and all signed in triplicate?

Cheers, T i m

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On 06/06/2021 23:29, T i m wrote:
On 6 Jun 2021 21:13:02 GMT, Tim Streater
wrote:

snip

This is one of my biggest bugbears. The only thing stopping vegans being
€śnormal€ť guests is their inability to compromise. Id have a lot more
respect for folk on self imposed restrictive diets if they followed normal
social codes and compromised when theyre guests.


ITYM unwilling.


Nope, simply not an (ethical) option. See, some people do have ethics
and stick by them.


And you don't; evidenced by keeping dogs.

Some of us are ethically open minded, and find it ethical to consume
food prepared by a friend rather than refuse.

They're not unable, at all.


Of course they are, just as likely you would be if they brought in a
live rabbit for you to kill, prep and cook for you all.


Some of us don't have the skills to prepare rabbit, and use a butcher or
purchase from a local supermarket.

And no, it is not "just as likely" however you might wish it to be.

There are selfish ****s who expect
you to put yourself out for them.


I doubt it very much. More like you being an arrogant **** who wants
to force his views on a guest / guests (of all people).


The arrogant **** is the one who expect their host to jump through hoops
to prepare an acceptable meal. A very selfish and arrogant ****.

I wouldn't,


Of course you wouldn't, you are a Goblin and devoid of any humility.


Is that your way of saying he has a point and you don't?

although SWMBO would, given
notice.


She could (easily) have done better (than you).

We had a relly visit once who was coming for dinner. He phoned when
the grub was already cooking (FFS!) to announce that (1) he was bringing the
g/f and that (2) she was a veggie.


Was it 'likely' that the food would already be cooking when he phoned?


Why not? Just because you are a compulsive liar doesn't mean everyone
else is.

What sort of meal was he 'expecting'? I wouldn't 'expect' people to
make a big fuss and if you were already cooking 6 hours before the
dinner time I wouldn't have thought that 'excessive' (when a sandwich
would have been fine).


An edible one, that he might have appreciated.

That didn't go down at all well, with
either of us.


Aww bless. I bet you wrote and angry letter to your MP didn't you and
it upset your whole year?


Is that your way of saying he has a point and you don't?

But then he had form for being thoughtless.


Then that could set a precedence and you might have been ready for the
outcome that happened and made something suitable (like a stew or
curry). If he was 'known' to be like that I would have eaten when
agreed (if I was hungry at that time) and he / they could have had
eaten whatever you could be bothered to prepare (or order in) when
he/they arrived. Or 'it's in the kitchen, help yourselves'.

Have you never had someone 'pop in' and fed them, or does it always
have to be arranged weeks in advance and all signed in triplicate?


Yep, and they've eaten heartily, and thanked me. Not sort of behaviour I
would expect from a fanatical vegan.

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I'm not so sure its a real effect, it could be that its a statistical
problem. Often when you look into these trials and findings, you find so
called weighting factors that would seem logical, but can skew the results.
Also of course a balanced diet is just as important for plant diets as they
are for omnivorous ones and there is the snag of course, who decides what is
the correct diet.
Brian

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...
It was in yesterday's Times. Apparently they have poor bones and they are
shorter than normal.
I suppose the authorities should pick up on this. But it's like FGM, child
abuse that's overlooked because a lot of people do it. However I don't
suppose vegans are regarded as being above the law like certain other
groups.

Bill



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