Used for 1st time today although purchased 2 years ago.
If I am holding the chainsaw in front of me with the `chain` pointing
away. So on the righthand side the chain moves away from me, then
coming down the other side the `chain` is moving towards me.
Does it make any difference from a safety point of view which side I cut
with left or right?

My cuts are mostly at waist height and horizontal.

On 12/11/2020 22:27, ss wrote:
Used for 1st time today although purchased 2 years ago.
If I am holding the chainsaw in front of me with the `chain` pointing
away.Â* So on the righthand side the chain moves away from me, then
coming down the other side the `chain` is moving towards me.
Does it make any difference from a safety point of view which side I cut
with left or right?


Youtube is your freind

the following suggests stand to the left.

How to Safely Operate Your Electric Chainsaw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXAKpnyUBpA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9BegDz1Beo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qiA28e9cOk
--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On Thu, 12 Nov 2020 22:27:45 +0000, ss wrote:

Used for 1st time today although purchased 2 years ago.
If I am holding the chainsaw in front of me with the `chain` pointing
away. So on the righthand side the chain moves away from me, then
coming down the other side the `chain` is moving towards me.
Does it make any difference from a safety point of view which side I cut
with left or right?

I'm not sure I follow your description but generally the top handle
only goes round one side (left) so you would typically cut
horizontally from right to left with your left hand supporting the saw
by the left side of top / side handle and your right hand on the back
handle / trigger. If the back handle doesn't rotate you may end up
using the trigger with your thumb. I'm not sure if they are set up for
cack handers? ;-)

My cuts are mostly at waist height and horizontal.

I believe you would do most cuts using the bottom of the bar (where it
comes towards you) and the spikes that are normally there to help it
all stay in place are generally more at the bottom than the top.

You might only used the top of the saw for 'snedding' and undercutting
but I wouldn't recommend a novice ever doing either without the right
training and PPE.

I think you also want to stand as far back as you can from the saw but
without overstretching. Keeping away whilst being in full control. You
really don't want to be within reach of the bar or chain if it comes
off the bar.

But please don't take any of the above as a recommendation you just
give it a go. ;-(

Cheers, T i m

On 12/11/2020 23:07, T i m wrote:
I'm not sure I follow your description

I will try and clarify.
Chain travels in a loop.
up one side and down the other,
So one side is travelling away from me the other towards me.
Does it matter if I cut from either side of the `loop`.


https://imgur.com/sdj1TTe

On 12/11/2020 23:48, ss wrote:
On 12/11/2020 23:07, T i m wrote:
I'm not sure I follow your description

I will try and clarify.
Chain travels in a loop.
up one side and down the other,
So one side is travelling away from me the other towards me.
Does it matter if I cut from either side of the `loop`.


https://imgur.com/sdj1TTe

https://youtu.be/kzuijFHquQk?t=489

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 12/11/2020 22:27, ss wrote:
Used for 1st time today although purchased 2 years ago.
If I am holding the chainsaw in front of me with the `chain` pointing
away.Â* So on the righthand side the chain moves away from me, then
coming down the other side the `chain` is moving towards me.
Does it make any difference from a safety point of view which side I cut
with left or right?

My cuts are mostly at waist height and horizontal.

If you are holding a traditional "right hander" saw with the chain bar
pointing away from you and vertical, then on the top of the bar the
chain will be moving away from you, and on the underside of the bar
toward you.

If you were say cutting logs from a section of trunk supported
horizontally, you would use the under side of the bar. Because of the
"handedness" of the saw it will normally be a little to your right in
these cases. Ideally you want to keep out of a direct line of the chain,
so it it were to snap and whip round under the saw your body or legs
would not be in the way.

Likewise be careful what you do with the tip of the bar - it the top
quadrant of the nosewheel snags on something, it will flick the bar up
and toward you. Not being directly behind it is again very worthwhile!
(forestry helmet with a visor will also keep your head in one piece
should a kickback hit your head or face).

If you are felling a tree - and so need to hold the saw horizontally,
then you will typically cut from right to left with the bottom of the
bar again.

The only time you would normally use the top of the bar is when cutting
through a branch that has load on it, and there is a danger of it
splitting and ripping a section off the underside of the branch before
you manage to cut right through. In that case you could use the top of
the bar to make partial cut to the underside of the branch before
reverting to cutting from the top. That will let you do a clean cut
without splitting the underside of the branch.

All in all, take a moment to think through each cut. Clear stuff that
might trip you out of the way before each cut. Plan an escape route. If
it goes pear shaped, let go of the saw and move! Wear PPE. Don't forget
electric chainsaws still need bar oil to work properly.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 13/11/20 10:48 am, ss wrote:
On 12/11/2020 23:07, T i m wrote:
I'm not sure I follow your description

I will try and clarify.
Chain travels in a loop.
up one side and down the other,
So one side is travelling away from me the other towards me.
Does it matter if I cut from either side of the `loop`.


https://imgur.com/sdj1TTe
One is very dangerous and other not so, the blade should always be
coming toward you.

On 12/11/2020 22:27, ss wrote:
Used for 1st time today although purchased 2 years ago.
If I am holding the chainsaw in front of me with the `chain` pointing
away.Â* So on the righthand side the chain moves away from me, then
coming down the other side the `chain` is moving towards me.
Does it make any difference from a safety point of view which side I cut
with left or right?

My cuts are mostly at waist height and horizontal.

Yes it does.
If you use the moving-away side to cut the saw will tend to push out of
the cut and if it reaches the saw tip the saw will kick out. When
cutting with a vertical blade this can result in a chain in your face.

So it is definitely not recommended. Having said this I've been using my
little petrol saw for 20 years and do it all the time. BUT I have a
profound respect for power tools. After cars, they are probably the most
lethal things people use on a regular basis.


--
"It is an established fact to 97% confidence limits that left wing
conspirators see right wing conspiracies everywhere"

John Rumm wrote:

ss wrote:

Does it make any difference from a safety point of view which side I
cut with [...] ?

If you are holding a traditional "right hander" saw with the chain bar
pointing away from you and vertical, then on the top of the bar the
chain will be moving away from you, and on the underside of the bar
toward you.

With mine held that way, there is a "chain catcher" on the underside.

On 12/11/2020 22:42, alan_m wrote:
On 12/11/2020 22:27, ss wrote:
Used for 1st time today although purchased 2 years ago.
If I am holding the chainsaw in front of me with the `chain` pointing
away.Â* So on the righthand side the chain moves away from me, then
coming down the other side the `chain` is moving towards me.
Does it make any difference from a safety point of view which side I
cut with left or right?


Youtube is your freind

yes stop asking stupid questions......troll

On 13/11/2020 04:10, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
If you use the moving-away side to cut the saw will tend to push out of
the cut and if it reaches the saw tip the saw will kick out

So like a router where going in one direction pushes it off the cut.

Ok, thanks all I think I get it now.
I only need to use it every couple of years so wont be extensive use.

I'd have thought that one way would cover you in chippings and also pull you
into the tree if it jammed, but most Electric ones do not have the oomph for
that sort of thing. I've only handled one once, frightened the daylights out
of me, even when I could see.
Brian

--

This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"alan_m" wrote in message
...
On 12/11/2020 22:27, ss wrote:
Used for 1st time today although purchased 2 years ago.
If I am holding the chainsaw in front of me with the `chain` pointing
away. So on the righthand side the chain moves away from me, then coming
down the other side the `chain` is moving towards me.
Does it make any difference from a safety point of view which side I cut
with left or right?


Youtube is your freind

the following suggests stand to the left.

How to Safely Operate Your Electric Chainsaw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXAKpnyUBpA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9BegDz1Beo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qiA28e9cOk
--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 13/11/2020 08:33, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:
I'd have thought that one way would cover you in chippings and also pull you
into the tree if it jammed, but most Electric ones do not have the oomph for
that sort of thing. I've only handled one once, frightened the daylights out
of me, even when I could see.
Brian

wimp

Brian Gaff (Sofa) explained :
I'd have thought that one way would cover you in chippings and also pull you
into the tree if it jammed, but most Electric ones do not have the oomph for
that sort of thing. I've only handled one once, frightened the daylights out
of me, even when I could see.

I had to buy a petrol version and use it to deal with a fallen tree a
couple of years ago. Buying one and cutting it up myself, was the
cheaper/ simpler / quicker option. I bought a long bladed one, because
the trunk was quite thick.

I must admit I was at first very wary of it at first, with all the
stories of injury and risk of death, so I made sure I had someone with
me when using it. In fact it was much easier to use, than I expected,
it jammed several times and the clutch slipped to prevent any injury,
as it was designed to do. Tree had been blown down, so I only needed to
use it on the ground - I doubt I would have the confidence to use it
off the ground.

On Thu, 12 Nov 2020 23:48:53 +0000, ss wrote:

On 12/11/2020 23:07, T i m wrote:
I'm not sure I follow your description

I will try and clarify.

Ok ...

Chain travels in a loop.

It does indeed. ;-)

up one side and down the other,

Well yes, but you had it on it's side so it was left and right but no,
all the man cutting is done with the bottom of the bar (where the
chain is coming towards you).

So one side is travelling away from me the other towards me.

Ok ..

Does it matter if I cut from either side of the `loop`.

No, if you know what, when and how you are doing but yes, if you are
just using a chainsaw for the first time.

However, I believe I answered your question the first time anyway. ;-)


https://imgur.com/sdj1TTe

(Sorry, can't open that for some reason).

Cheers, T i m

On Fri, 13 Nov 2020 08:31:49 +0000, ss wrote:

snip

Ok, thanks all I think I get it now.
I only need to use it every couple of years so wont be extensive use.

Unfortunately, with things like chainsaws that intermittent level of
use makes it even more dangerous.

If you were to get the training, got the relevant ticket (CS30):

https://www.kingswoodtraining.com/ch...utting-course/

had *all* the right PPE and did enough of it to gain a reasonable
level of experience, then it would be more like riding a bike (when
you went back to it 'next time'). ;-)

As others have mentioned, chainsaws can be very dangerous things (as
many 'professionals' can attest (and some that now can't)) and part of
that reason is because how they cut, removing a fair chunk of you,
should something go wrong (eg, not like a knife cut).

As other have also mentioned, if you know and use some basic
techniques, specifically around what you *don't* do, you could be ok.

They are similar in their risk factor to a grenade. If you read the
instructions and follow them to the letter ... and don't try to take
short cuts or try anything (that turns out to be) silly .... ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On 13/11/2020 08:31, ss wrote:
On 13/11/2020 04:10, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
If you use the moving-away side to cut the saw will tend to push out
of the cut and if it reaches the saw tip the saw will kick out

So like a router where going in one direction pushes it off the cut.

Ok, thanks all I think I get it now.
I only need to use it every couple of years so wont be extensive use.
Dont be afraid to use it the 'wrong' way - for example when cutting a
heavy horizontal piece that is supported at the ends, the blade will jam
if you do it from above so you can either turn the thing over or cut the
last bit from underneath,assuming you cant get a support in to jack up
the area you are cutting.




--
€œThere are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isnt true; the
other is to refuse to believe what is true.€�

€”Soren Kierkegaard

On 13/11/2020 08:33, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:
I'd have thought that one way would cover you in chippings and also pull you
into the tree if it jammed,

Pulling you into the work piece is the safer option - the other way
sends the chain saw towards you.

but most Electric ones do not have the oomph for
that sort of thing. I've only handled one once, frightened the daylights out
of me, even when I could see.

I once attended a agriculture and woodland show where representatives
from Stihl were demonstrating their product range. One message was that
even their small electric range could inflict serious personal damage if
used incorrectly.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

ss wrote:
On 12/11/2020 23:07, T i m wrote:
I'm not sure I follow your description

I will try and clarify.
Chain travels in a loop.
up one side and down the other,
So one side is travelling away from me the other towards me.
Does it matter if I cut from either side of the `loop`.

You always (well, very nearly always) cut with the 'bottom' of the saw
such that the saw is pulled away from you.

It's (just about) permissable to cut with the top side for making a
small groove in the underside of a branch which you are lopping so
that when you cut it off in the normal way from the top it breaks off
reasonably neatly rather than tearing. Be extra careful when doing
this cutting with the 'wrong' side of the saw.

--
Chris Green
·

On 13/11/2020 08:23, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
On 12/11/2020 22:42, alan_m wrote:
On 12/11/2020 22:27, ss wrote:
Used for 1st time today although purchased 2 years ago.
If I am holding the chainsaw in front of me with the `chain` pointing
away.Â* So on the righthand side the chain moves away from me, then
coming down the other side the `chain` is moving towards me.
Does it make any difference from a safety point of view which side I
cut with left or right?


Youtube is your freind

yes stop asking stupid questions......troll

You can as much damage to yourself with an electric chainsaw
as a petrol one.

Is there any reason why you cannot simply use a hand saw ?.
One with a good quality blade, intended for cutting timber
across the grain, will go through sappy wood quite easily.

On 12/11/2020 23:48, ss wrote:
On 12/11/2020 23:07, T i m wrote:
I'm not sure I follow your description

I will try and clarify.
Chain travels in a loop.
up one side and down the other,
So one side is travelling away from me the other towards me.
Does it matter if I cut from either side of the `loop`.


https://imgur.com/sdj1TTe

The bit that travels towards you is the lower part of the loop
and that is the one that should be doing the cutting. If the
chain jams and tries to rotate the whole thing back towards
you, the handguard is supposed to lock the chain thus protecting
you from injury. There are *many* fakes on ebay where this
safety mechanism just doesn't work.

Undercutting uses the top part of the blade and if you are
complete beginner, I wouldn't advise it until you are happy that
you are in control.

On 13/11/2020 07:06, Andy Burns wrote:
John Rumm wrote:

ss wrote:

Does it make any difference from a safety point of view which side I
cut with [...] ?

If you are holding a traditional "right hander" saw with the chain bar
pointing away from you and vertical, then on the top of the bar the
chain will be moving away from you, and on the underside of the bar
toward you.

With mine held that way, there is a "chain catcher" on the underside.

Yup, that's true for most modern saws

(for the OP, the chain catcher is a metal bracket that entraps the chain
just before it vanishes back into the saw near the rear drive sprocket.
The idea being that if the chain were to snap and start to pull away
from the underside of the bar the catcher would snag it and bring it to
a stop before it has a chance to whip around something soft and fleshy
while still being driven under power)


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 13/11/2020 08:33, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:

I'd have thought that one way would cover you in chippings and also pull you
into the tree if it jammed,

That is the better way generally - it pulls the saw away from you, and
pulls the dog teeth on the front of the body into the side of the wood.
You can then use a pivoting action - pulling on the rear handle to drive
the chain through the wood, pivoting on the dog teeth.

You can cut on the "push" side of the chain, but its not so easy when
cutting thicker stuff.

but most Electric ones do not have the oomph for
that sort of thing. I've only handled one once, frightened the daylights out
of me, even when I could see.

The power outputs of a mains electric is comparable with many small
petrol saws. In fact the new breed of cordless electrics can pretty much
match all but the most powerful petrol ones.



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 13/11/2020 08:59, Harry Bloomfield wrote:

was designed to do. Tree had been blown down, so I only needed to use it
on the ground - I doubt I would have the confidence to use it off the
ground.

Back handles saws can only safely be used two handed, so they are
difficult you use safely off the ground unless say on a scaffold tower,
or properly roped and harnessed to the tree. For aerial work most
arborists will use the smaller "top handle" saws, which can be used
single handed (although even then they are safer with two!).



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In article ,
John Rumm wrote:
On 13/11/2020 08:59, Harry Bloomfield wrote:

was designed to do. Tree had been blown down, so I only needed to use it
on the ground - I doubt I would have the confidence to use it off the
ground.

Back handles saws can only safely be used two handed, so they are
difficult you use safely off the ground unless say on a scaffold tower,
or properly roped and harnessed to the tree. For aerial work most
arborists will use the smaller "top handle" saws, which can be used
single handed (although even then they are safer with two!).

but the other hand should be holding onto the ladder

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

"charles" wrote in message
...
In article ,
John Rumm wrote:
On 13/11/2020 08:59, Harry Bloomfield wrote:

was designed to do. Tree had been blown down, so I only needed to use it
on the ground - I doubt I would have the confidence to use it off the
ground.

Back handles saws can only safely be used two handed, so they are
difficult you use safely off the ground unless say on a scaffold tower,
or properly roped and harnessed to the tree. For aerial work most
arborists will use the smaller "top handle" saws, which can be used
single handed (although even then they are safer with two!).

but the other hand should be holding onto the ladder

All real arborists will be secured by ropes from above and wouldn't
be seen dead, anywhere near a ladder. Either literally or metaphorically.
You throw a rope between an overhead branch and the trunk and climb up the
secured rope, using one or more pairs of ascenders. Ratcheted devices
for feet and hands. Then secure yourself on a higher branch on the way
up, and repeat as often as necessary.


michael adams

....

ss wrote:
On 12/11/2020 23:07, T i m wrote:
I'm not sure I follow your description

I will try and clarify.
Chain travels in a loop.
up one side and down the other,
So one side is travelling away from me the other towards me.
Does it matter if I cut from either side of the `loop`.


https://imgur.com/sdj1TTe

----------------
bar \
/
---------------- The chain pulls the log up
\ / \ === against the teeth, and gives
/ | log | a degree of control. There is
\ \ / less tendency to rotate if the
/ work is pinned against the teeth.

Whereas doing it like this is more dangerous.

----------------
bar \
/
----------------
\ / \
/ | log |
\ \ /
/

There was at one time, a website with a picture
of the human body, showing the most and least popular
places to inflict injury with a chainsaw. The right
side of the body was more affected, suggesting there
are more right-handed people in the world. The purpose
of assembling pictures like that from the available
data, is to keep you aware that a chainsaw is a
*dangerous* tool. The chain is just as sharp on
an electric chainsaw.

To do horizontal cuts (bring down a portion of a
tree trunk), you use the three cut method. But you
practices on some 4" logs, making vertical cuts, until
you are used to using the chainsaw. Don't start your
first project, felling a tree trunk. You want to use
the saw, so that the gravity feed oil supply continues
to lubricate the bar.

3 --------- --------- 2
\__ remove wedge of wood, defines fall line
\__ and do remove the wedge so there
\__ 1 is air showing here.

You should only use the three-cut method if the trunk
is sound. If the trunk is rotten, you could make your
first cut... and have the trunk fall on you, or jam
the bar.

Professional tree fellers use a team, and three staff
operate ropes to pull some of the materials away from
the house. *Do not* wrap pull ropes around your hand
or your wrist, if you're on the team pulling on those
ropes. If you lose control while working a cut, let the
rope go before it burns you. I've seen people pulled
through the brush by a pull rope. With a big tree, you
can be pulled 20 feet by your rope. You don't want that
to happen. While using the saw is dangerous,
being a drunken fool pulling on the rope is
just as dangerous if not done correctly.

Paul

On 13/11/2020 16:34, charles wrote:
In article ,
John Rumm wrote:
On 13/11/2020 08:59, Harry Bloomfield wrote:

was designed to do. Tree had been blown down, so I only needed to use it
on the ground - I doubt I would have the confidence to use it off the
ground.

Back handles saws can only safely be used two handed, so they are
difficult you use safely off the ground unless say on a scaffold tower,
or properly roped and harnessed to the tree. For aerial work most
arborists will use the smaller "top handle" saws, which can be used
single handed (although even then they are safer with two!).

but the other hand should be holding onto the ladder

Indeed, hence the need for a top handle saw if working from ladders
since its the only way you will have a free hand.

If working from a scaffold tower, or a cherry picker, then you can use a
back handled saw since you have both hands free.

However many pros will be properly roped on with an additional safety
strap round the main trunk, and so can work safely at height and have
both hands free since they are safely supported in their harness.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Fri, 13 Nov 2020 17:44:34 -0000, "michael adams"
wrote:

snip

All real arborists will be secured by ropes from above and wouldn't
be seen dead, anywhere near a ladder.

Well, you can save yourself some time over the first bit on a ladder
if you want. ;-)

Either literally or metaphorically.

;-)

You throw a rope between an overhead branch and the trunk and climb up the
secured rope, using one or more pairs of ascenders. Ratcheted devices
for feet and hands.

No, a 'real climber' would be using a ' Prusik' that they have made
themselves (and a cambium saver they had put up there with their throw
line if the tree wasn't being taken down). ;-)

Then secure yourself on a higher branch on the way
up, and repeat as often as necessary.

Yup, and on the way down chogging, a wire strop / flipline (plus
mainline) ...

Cheers, T i m

John Rumm wrote:
On 13/11/2020 16:34, charles wrote:
In article ,
John Rumm wrote:
On 13/11/2020 08:59, Harry Bloomfield wrote:

was designed to do. Tree had been blown down, so I only needed to use it
on the ground - I doubt I would have the confidence to use it off the
ground.

Back handles saws can only safely be used two handed, so they are
difficult you use safely off the ground unless say on a scaffold tower,
or properly roped and harnessed to the tree. For aerial work most
arborists will use the smaller "top handle" saws, which can be used
single handed (although even then they are safer with two!).

but the other hand should be holding onto the ladder

Indeed, hence the need for a top handle saw if working from ladders
since its the only way you will have a free hand.

If working from a scaffold tower, or a cherry picker, then you can use a
back handled saw since you have both hands free.

However many pros will be properly roped on with an additional safety
strap round the main trunk, and so can work safely at height and have
both hands free since they are safely supported in their harness.

As an 'amateur' chainsaw user I simply have a rule (for me) that says
never try to use it if/when I'm not on the ground.

The main safety thing (as for many power tools) is to be sure you're
well balanced and steady on the ground. Falling over and/or dropping
tools is the way to get hurt. My worst power tool injury was caused
by not keeping an angle grinder firmly gripped, it wasn't that bad but
I don't want to repeat it.

--
Chris Green
·

"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 13 Nov 2020 17:44:34 -0000, "michael adams"
wrote:

snip

All real arborists will be secured by ropes from above and wouldn't
be seen dead, anywhere near a ladder.

Well, you can save yourself some time over the first bit on a ladder
if you want. ;-)

Er no. Its much easier for the arborist to put his/her feet through
the loops of the foot ascender sometimes called a knee descender as
the ratchet is at knee height, at ground level. And just as quick as
their upward steps are the size they want rather than being dictated
by the distance between the rungs of the ladder.

That's assuming a ladder is a possibility in the first place. With amateur
grown trees as are found in people's back gardens, with branches low down
maybe. But in all large trees in public places lining roads, in parks etc.
all the lower branches will have been removed at an early stage to avoid
obstruction and save the council getting sued by people banging their
heads. Possibly you hadn't noticed ?


Either literally or metaphorically.

;-)

You throw a rope between an overhead branch and the trunk and climb up the
secured rope, using one or more pairs of ascenders. Ratcheted devices
for feet and hands.

No, a 'real climber' would be using a ' Prusik' that they have made
themselves (and a cambium saver they had put up there with their throw
line if the tree wasn't being taken down). ;-)

I drilled a hole in a golfball through which I threaded thin cord
and threw that up in the tree. I assume that must have been my "throw
line". As many ropes as required may be attached to that.
Which is something I do use all the time. Throw the ball anyway.
Obviously you've been googling but maybe not hard enough. "prusiks"
are very basic friction brake devices made by winding rope around the
rope. Real climbers would be spending hundreds on decent anodised
purple and green ascenders and descenders out of catalogues.

Yup, and on the way down chogging, a wire strop / flipline (plus
mainline) ...

Chogging ? Another technical term ? Is that repeling or absailing?
Wire strop, flipline, mainline ? Have you been googling all
this stuff ?

Well yes to descend you er use descenders. You also have what I call
a safety rope which I do use attached to a harness back and front
again running through a friction brake although obviously yourself
and google will know the proper names for all this stuff.


michael adams

....

In article , michael adams
wrote:

"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 13 Nov 2020 17:44:34 -0000, "michael adams"
wrote:

snip

All real arborists will be secured by ropes from above and wouldn't be
seen dead, anywhere near a ladder.

Well, you can save yourself some time over the first bit on a ladder if
you want. ;-)

Er no. Its much easier for the arborist to put his/her feet through the
loops of the foot ascender sometimes called a knee descender as the
ratchet is at knee height, at ground level. And just as quick as their
upward steps are the size they want rather than being dictated by the
distance between the rungs of the ladder.

That's assuming a ladder is a possibility in the first place. With
amateur grown trees as are found in people's back gardens, with branches
low down maybe. But in all large trees in public places lining roads, in
parks etc. all the lower branches will have been removed at an early
stage to avoid obstruction and save the council getting sued by people
banging their heads. Possibly you hadn't noticed ?

In some places, eg Bushey Park, the lower branch "pruning' is done by
deer.



--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

"charles" wrote in message
...
In article , michael adams
wrote:

"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 13 Nov 2020 17:44:34 -0000, "michael adams"
wrote:

snip

All real arborists will be secured by ropes from above and wouldn't be
seen dead, anywhere near a ladder.

Well, you can save yourself some time over the first bit on a ladder if
you want. ;-)

Er no. Its much easier for the arborist to put his/her feet through the
loops of the foot ascender sometimes called a knee descender as the
ratchet is at knee height, at ground level. And just as quick as their
upward steps are the size they want rather than being dictated by the
distance between the rungs of the ladder.

That's assuming a ladder is a possibility in the first place. With
amateur grown trees as are found in people's back gardens, with branches
low down maybe. But in all large trees in public places lining roads, in
parks etc. all the lower branches will have been removed at an early
stage to avoid obstruction and save the council getting sued by people
banging their heads. Possibly you hadn't noticed ?

In some places, eg Bushey Park, the lower branch "pruning' is done by
deer.

Indeed. In Richmond Park there are, or at least used to be, old style picket
fences, split wood uprights and wire, put around the trees to protect
them.


michael adams

....

On Sat, 14 Nov 2020 09:15:02 -0000, "michael adams"
wrote:


"T i m" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 13 Nov 2020 17:44:34 -0000, "michael adams"
wrote:

snip

All real arborists will be secured by ropes from above and wouldn't
be seen dead, anywhere near a ladder.

Well, you can save yourself some time over the first bit on a ladder
if you want. ;-)

Er no.

Er yes. You are talking about your fantasy arborist, I'm taking about
our daughter who was a trained tree person.

Its much easier for the arborist to put his/her feet through
the loops of the foot ascender sometimes called a knee descender as
the ratchet is at knee height, at ground level.

A massive assumption that all arborists use mechanical ascenders and
they don't.

And just as quick as
their upward steps are the size they want rather than being dictated
by the distance between the rungs of the ladder.

See above.

That's assuming a ladder is a possibility in the first place.

Of course.

With amateur
grown trees as are found in people's back gardens, with branches low down
maybe. But in all large trees in public places lining roads, in parks etc.
all the lower branches will have been removed at an early stage to avoid
obstruction

'Lifting' ...

and save the council getting sued by people banging their
heads. Possibly you hadn't noticed ?

Possibly you are making big and uninformed assumptions. After arb
college, she worked at several arb Co's, then for herself, now for the
local Council involved in the management of their 'Open Spaces'. She's
also one of few on their team with all her chainsaw tickets and so
still called in when such things are needed and they don't want to /
can't get contractors in.

I actually moved her climbing gear bag yesterday and I can assure you
there are no mechanical ascenders (or spikes) in there.

What difference would it make lifting a 60' tree from 6' to 8' re
initial access into to the tree by ladder?


Either literally or metaphorically.

;-)

You throw a rope between an overhead branch and the trunk and climb up the
secured rope, using one or more pairs of ascenders. Ratcheted devices
for feet and hands.

No, a 'real climber' would be using a ' Prusik' that they have made
themselves (and a cambium saver they had put up there with their throw
line if the tree wasn't being taken down). ;-)

I drilled a hole in a golfball through which I threaded thin cord
and threw that up in the tree. I assume that must have been my "throw
line".

Yup. Not so nice when it hits you on the head as a traditional 'throw
bag' but it would work.

As many ropes as required may be attached to that.

As many ropes ... are you building a web?

Which is something I do use all the time. Throw the ball anyway.

'Fetch!'

Obviously you've been googling but maybe not hard enough.

Oh dear ... ;-(

"prusiks"
are very basic friction brake devices made by winding rope around the
rope.

Well, not really, it's a loop of rope used to make a self locking
device to *attach* to the main climbing rope (using a Prusik knot or
hitch).

Real climbers would be spending hundreds on decent anodised
purple and green ascenders and descenders out of catalogues.

Oh dear. See how silly you now look as you dig yourself deeper with
your inexperience and uneducated assumptions? If someone is *just* a
tree climber / cutter then yes, they would probably invest in the
latest kit. If they only climbed infrequently then they probably
wouldn't (as some of this kit is very expensive and you would have to
pay to have it checked (LOLER) every few years).

Yup, and on the way down chogging, a wire strop / flipline (plus
mainline) ...

Chogging ? Another technical term ?

Yup, more Googling for *you*. ;-)

Is that repeling or absailing?

Neither. It's the taking down of the trunk in sections as you climb
down.

Wire strop, flipline, mainline ? Have you been googling all
this stuff ?

Nope, see, just because you have to, doesn't man someone involved in
the role over many years would.

Her b/f was an Instructor / examiner / NTPC inspector at an Arb
college for several years and I have had many interesting / technical
conversations with him (along with assisting both of them on tree
jobs). Plus it was good to watch all the climbing at the Arb shows and
competition climbing events.

Well yes to descend you er use descenders.

Or your Prusik ...

You also have what I call
a safety rope which I do use attached to a harness back and front
again running through a friction brake

All sounds very complicated. Are you sure you aren't talking about
rock climbing?

See, 'officially' you shouldn't climb on your own (now especially) but
many do and therefore who is going to manage the safety line?

although obviously yourself
and google will know the proper names for all this stuff.

Some of us who have *actually* been personally involved in it at a
professional level will know most the basic terms already of course.
;-)

Cheers, T i m

On Sat, 14 Nov 2020 09:53:51 -0000, "michael adams"
wrote:
snip

Indeed. In Richmond Park there are, or at least used to be, old style picket
fences, split wood uprights and wire, put around the trees to protect
them.

I think you will find they are more typically called 'Pale / pailing'
fences (probably a modern version of a wattle fence).

Picket fences are normally evenly spaced flat wood 'pickets' on an
Arris rail of some sort.

Cheers, T i m

"T i m" wrote in message
...

snippage throughout

I actually moved her climbing gear bag yesterday and I can assure you
there are no mechanical ascenders (or spikes) in there.

So how does she get from the ground 60ft up the branchless trunk of
a tree ?


I drilled a hole in a golfball through which I threaded thin cord
and threw that up in the tree. I assume that must have been my "throw
line".

Yup. Not so nice when it hits you on the head as a traditional 'throw
bag' but it would work.

Anything other than a round ball can snag in the branches, and you'd have
to be pretty stupid not to notice where the ball actually went.


Yup, and on the way down chogging, a wire strop / flipline (plus
mainline) ...

Chogging ? Another technical term ?

Yup, more Googling for *you*. ;-)

Is that repeling or absailing?

Neither. It's the taking down of the trunk in sections as you climb
down.

Who said anything about taking down trees ?

The topic was climbing up them and coming back down.

Or more specifically in this case how your daughter mangages
to get from the ground to 60ft up a branchless trunk without
the use of ascenders of any kind or spikes.


Well yes to descend you er use descenders.

Or your Prusik ...

Have you actually ever used one ? Has your daughter ?
At least apart from "training excercises"

If so I'd be interested to know what advantages you found as
against using mechanical descenders.



You also have what I call
a safety rope which I do use attached to a harness back and front
again running through a friction brake

All sounds very complicated. Are you sure you aren't talking about
rock climbing?

You can just as much damage to yourself falling 30 ft out of a tree
as you can falling off a rockface. Didn't your daughter explain all
that to you ?


michael adams

....

"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 14 Nov 2020 09:53:51 -0000, "michael adams"
wrote:
snip

Indeed. In Richmond Park there are, or at least used to be, old style picket
fences, split wood uprights and wire, put around the trees to protect
them.

I think you will find they are more typically called 'Pale / pailing'
fences (probably a modern version of a wattle fence).

Oh yes so they are, I stand corrected. Paling fencing was pictured
on a Google Images page for "picket fencing" on the 9th row down
And was actually labelled "paling fencing" ! Silly me.


Picket fences are normally evenly spaced flat wood 'pickets' on an
Arris rail of some sort.

I know. That's what all the other fences on the picket fencing page
on Google images look like. It's nice to see somebody's paying
attention anyway.


michael adams

....

On 13/11/2020 17:44, michael adams wrote:
All real arborists will be secured by ropes from above and wouldn't
be seen dead, anywhere near a ladder.

Plenty still use ladders to access the crown,


Either literally or metaphorically.
You throw a rope between an overhead branch and the trunk and climb up the
secured rope, using one or more pairs of ascenders. Ratcheted devices
for feet and hands. Then secure yourself on a higher branch on the way
up, and repeat as often as necessary.

It's actually quite unusual to need a throw line (light twine with a bag
weighted with lead shot) to access the crown). on a take down spikes and
strops is the preferred method on our team (we're a bit long in the
tooth with the supervisor being 64 and climber 42, I'm a geriatric brash
dragger when needed).

The climber usually uses a doubled rope technique and a positioning
device called a zig zag, the supervisor still uses a prussic knot on a
doubled rope.

Single rope technique is used by a lot of young climbers but after
access they will often use doubled rope for positioning plus a strop for
safety.

A single rope tied at the base for access doubles the stress on the
anchor point in the tree.

What you describe is the standard doubled rope technique for access but
the use of foot and knee ascenders is only needed for single rope technique.

On Sat, 14 Nov 2020 10:56:18 -0000, "michael adams"
wrote:


"T i m" wrote in message
.. .

snippage throughout

I actually moved her climbing gear bag yesterday and I can assure you
there are no mechanical ascenders (or spikes) in there.

So how does she get from the ground 60ft up the branchless trunk of
a tree ?

I think you are confusing 'tree' with 'telegraph pole' mate?


I drilled a hole in a golfball through which I threaded thin cord
and threw that up in the tree. I assume that must have been my "throw
line".

Yup. Not so nice when it hits you on the head as a traditional 'throw
bag' but it would work.

Anything other than a round ball can snag in the branches,

So I wonder what they don't sell golf balls with holes drilled though
them for weights on throw lines then, and supply a bean bag instead?

and you'd have
to be pretty stupid not to notice where the ball actually went.

No, it should be on the end of your line, now wrapped 5 times round a
branch and locked in place.


Yup, and on the way down chogging, a wire strop / flipline (plus
mainline) ...

Chogging ? Another technical term ?

Yup, more Googling for *you*. ;-)

Is that repeling or absailing?

Neither. It's the taking down of the trunk in sections as you climb
down.

Who said anything about taking down trees ?

I did, when I described the descending (keep up).

The topic was climbing up them and coming back down.

And do you think they would climb down without chogging the tree down
with them? Keep up.

Or more specifically in this case how your daughter mangages
to get from the ground to 60ft up a branchless trunk without
the use of ascenders of any kind or spikes.

See above. If it was a real tree not telegraph pole, using a throw
line or ladder to get into the lower branches then climbing (as in
kids tree climbing).


Well yes to descend you er use descenders.

Or your Prusik ...

Have you actually ever used one ? Has your daughter ?

What do you think? No, belay that, you don't 'think' do you, you just
assume and guess and build up a (bogus) picture in your own (closed)
mind. ;-(

At least apart from "training excercises"

See above. What part of being trained at an Arb College and working
for several arb Co's (where she was often the climber) did you miss?

If so I'd be interested to know what advantages you found as
against using mechanical descenders.

Convenience and cost. You can make a Prusik loop yourself if you need
/ want to.


You also have what I call
a safety rope which I do use attached to a harness back and front
again running through a friction brake

All sounds very complicated. Are you sure you aren't talking about
rock climbing?

You can just as much damage to yourself falling 30 ft out of a tree
as you can falling off a rockface.

Of course? And? How many people need to climb rock faces regularly for
their jobs, other than mountain rescue / RSPB etc and have you never
heard or free climbing?

When climbing a tree for your job 'of course' you would clip yourself
in a regular intervals but there could be times when you are say
descending out of a tree you may have thinned, shaped, pollarded or
done crownwork on, where you are descending from the lower limbs just
on your one climbing line.

Didn't your daughter explain all
that to you ?

Didn't need to mate, a fear of heights and loud noises are built into
most people so don't need 'explaining'.

The difference between you and I are that I've been involved in all
this from a professional POV and you haven't. ;-(

Please stop digging.

Cheers, T i m

"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 14 Nov 2020 10:56:18 -0000, "michael adams"
wrote:


"T i m" wrote in message
. ..

snippage throughout

I actually moved her climbing gear bag yesterday and I can assure you
there are no mechanical ascenders (or spikes) in there.

So how does she get from the ground 60ft up the branchless trunk of
a tree ?

I think you are confusing 'tree' with 'telegraph pole' mate?

In the parks around here we have proper trees. 200 and more year
old cedars planted by posh people. Not stuff planted in the 1950's


So I wonder what they don't sell golf balls with holes drilled though
them for weights on throw lines then, and supply a bean bag instead?

As you said its tradition innit ?

They didn't have golf balls 200 years ago did they ?

Think about it.


and you'd have
to be pretty stupid not to notice where the ball actually went.

No, it should be on the end of your line, now wrapped 5 times round a
branch and locked in place.

Your recommendation for the tradional lead filed throwing bag was
that it wouldn't hurt you if it hit you on the head. But the only reason
the trowing bag wouldn't similarly wrap itself 5 times around a branch
would be if it was that much heavier than a golf ball.

But it wouldn't hurt as much if it hit you on the head, Stun you
perhaps but nothing serious.

....

Who said anything about taking down trees ?

I did, when I described the descending (keep up).

How can you descend a tree that isn't there ?


The topic was climbing up them and coming back down.

And do you think they would climb down without chogging the tree down
with them? Keep up.

Or more specifically in this case how your daughter mangages
to get from the ground to 60ft up a branchless trunk without
the use of ascenders of any kind or spikes.

See above. If it was a real tree not telegraph pole, using a throw
line or ladder to get into the lower branches then climbing (as in
kids tree climbing).

There *are* no lower branches. How many more times ?

Try Google images for "tall trees".


Have you actually ever used one ? Has your daughter ?

What do you think? No, belay that, you don't 'think' do you, you just
assume and guess and build up a (bogus) picture in your own (closed)
mind. ;-(

You're not very good at answering direct questions are you ?

I've notices that before.


At least apart from "training excercises"

See above. What part of being trained at an Arb College and working
for several arb Co's (where she was often the climber) did you miss?

If so I'd be interested to know what advantages you found as
against using mechanical descenders.

Convenience and cost. You can make a Prusik loop yourself if you need
/ want to.


But why would anyone want to ? Cost ? Basically if you can't afford
to invest in a decent bit of kit maybe you shouldnt be doing it
in te first place. Same with ropes. Have you seen the cost of
decent rope nowadays ?


You also have what I call
a safety rope which I do use attached to a harness back and front
again running through a friction brake

All sounds very complicated. Are you sure you aren't talking about
rock climbing?

You can just as much damage to yourself falling 30 ft out of a tree
as you can falling off a rockface.

Of course? And? How many people need to climb rock faces regularly for
their jobs, other than mountain rescue / RSPB etc and have you never
heard or free climbing?

What has anything got to do with your claim that my choosing to wear
a harness when climbing trees was "very complicated"


When climbing a tree for your job

What "job". People only fall out of trees when its their "job" ?


Didn't your daughter explain all
that to you ?

Didn't need to mate, a fear of heights and loud noises are built into
most people so don't need 'explaining'.

The difference between you and I are that I've been involved in all
this from a professional POV and you haven't. ;-(

So how does she get from the ground 60ft up the branchless trunk of
a tree ?


Why not just answer the question from a professional POV ?

I mean I've seen blokes who I assumes to be "professional" do it
on some really tall trees around here, and I'm just wondering
how your daughter manages it.


michael adams

....