In article , DJC scribeth
thus
On 22/04/15 07:27, Tim Watts wrote:
On 22/04/15 02:07, MM wrote:

Well, they were the ones who became managers. There's always one.

Not always true.

In academia, you might find the dept run more or less day to day by some
"administrator" who slides in sideways and has no academic
qualifications at all. Boy does that **** people off.

Well, better than than leaving administration to academics. And yes,
academics are very status concious, really messes them up when the admin
have better academic qualifications then them.

Yes aren't they just, here in Cambridge we've got more than our fair
share of 'em;!..
--
Tony Sayer

In article , Weatherlawyer
scribeth thus
On Friday, 17 April 2015 22:44:33 UTC+1, tony sayer wrote:

At 63 the old arthritis is causing a bit of grief
some of it dodgy hip joints, runs in the family.

Really?

But a daily dose of ibuprofen helps keep it in check but no, not quite
as energetic and agile as I once was in the early 50's.

Back got a bit buggered in an accident some years ago as did the neck
but in that I very nearly died so I'm grateful to be still around.

Welcome to older age mate;!...

Colchicine and allopurinol should easy your pain greatly.


Yes used that stuff for gout before, and its not shall we say one of the nicest
drugs around...

http://www.thepoisonreview.com/2010/07/04/colchicine-be-afraid-be-very-afraid/


Discussed Allopurinol with the doc and she dint think it was a good idea either.
Local pharmacists and two retied hospital consultants living locally who have much
the same problems reckon it, Ibuprofen, is one of the lesser evils in that line of
drugs NSAIDs that is..

--
Tony Sayer

In article , MM
scribeth thus
On 21 Apr 2015 09:13:48 GMT, Bob Eager wrote:

On Tue, 21 Apr 2015 02:28:21 +0100, MM wrote:

Ah! I'm retired. I wouldn't work now if you paid me! After 44 years of
grafting I reckon I've had enough of work. Besides, I have so many
hobbies, including DIY, I could never find the time for working.

I'm looking forward to this.

I'm
really enjoying doing what the heck I like when I like without all the
stress of office politics in an environment where I was treated like a
granddad as the oldest staff member. Heck, I was older than my managers!

I'm older than nearly everyone; the problem is the incompetence of
management. What this means is that other people invent silly rules, and
he (being weak) just agrees. It gets really annoying sometimes.

Two things really ****ed me off: annual appraisals, and meetings.
Especially the latter made all the junior management feel so
self-important and they had meetings all the ruddy time. I never
wanted to become a manager, but preferred to work on my projects
(computer programmer), which was far more interesting than organising
people. I've never had a lot of time for managers, I'm afraid.

MM

All that is the main reason I packed up working for someone else 30
years ago and although its not the easiest occupation running your own
business its much less stressful in so many ways oddly enough as you are
more in control of it.

Never looked back and still like what I'm doing, OK some days can be a
PITA but thats life!...

Can't be arsed to retire, sounds like getting olde and boring!..
--
Tony Sayer

On 22/04/15 08:02, Tim Watts wrote:
On 22/04/15 07:44, DJC wrote:
On 22/04/15 07:27, Tim Watts wrote:
On 22/04/15 02:07, MM wrote:

Well, they were the ones who became managers. There's always one.

Not always true.

In academia, you might find the dept run more or less day to day by some
"administrator" who slides in sideways and has no academic
qualifications at all. Boy does that **** people off.

Well, better than than leaving administration to academics.

It's more than admin.

Nothing puts a professor's nose out of joint than having an admin person
approve his annual leave request.

As I said, academics are status concious, not always with good reason.


More seriously, the admin person does not understand the business of the
department and thus frequently comes up with stupid pronouncements.

Some do, others know a lot more than the academics.



And yes,
academics are very status concious, really messes them up when the admin
have better academic qualifications then them.

On 22 Apr 2015 10:58:09 GMT, Bob Eager wrote:

On Wed, 22 Apr 2015 11:46:41 +0100, Tim Watts wrote:

On 21/04/15 10:15, Bob Eager wrote:

MyFitnessPal again.

I see my mistake (not having entered anything on MFP for a while).

I appraised yesterday and today's meals.

I was 800 cals over 1600 yesterday - that would be the amount I drunk in
alcohol.


Yesterday and today - 2nd mistake. I thought buying a M&S salad and
lobbing some pickled herrings on top would be good. It's not. The fish
is 500 and sadly they do not do smaller portions (and no i do not trust
the decrepit old fridge at work).

Today - a ramen snack cost me 380 cals.

On the plus side a fruit salad pudding for lunch is great at 75.

I am constantly surprised at some things. I had a nice creme caramel from
Sainsburys and it was only 110. Low fat sandwiches aren't all bad. And
the Be Good To Yourself range from Sainsburys is pretty nice.

Today (for lunch) I am having four Ryvita, butter, Ardennes pate,
cucumber and spring onion, and a mug of coffee. 391 calories.

There you go! A fairly healthy lunch, yet 391 cals quick as a flash!


Before I started seriously counting cals I didn't have a clue how many
were in any foods. No idea. But now, I look at a slice of bread and it
grows horns before my eyes. An egg OTOH always seems acceptable as it
contains so many nutrients. Right now, I reached the stage of the day
when I need to plan something for supper. So much for my 1500 cal
restriction this week! I've already consumed 1448 today. A small
portion of rice, mushrooms, spring onions and ham wouldn't be more
than around 300 cals (cooked from scratch, not a ready meal). So that
will come in at around 1750 for the day. Plus another 72 if I eat a
smallish Pink Lady.

Also I reckon the *vast majority* among the general public don't have
a clue either how many calories foods contain, and I also reckon most
people, despite the obesity epidemic, which can't have escaped their
attention, do not check the labels on the front of food packages, tins
etc.

MM

On Wed, 22 Apr 2015 12:35:28 +0100, tony sayer
wrote:

In article , MM
scribeth thus
On 21 Apr 2015 09:13:48 GMT, Bob Eager wrote:

On Tue, 21 Apr 2015 02:28:21 +0100, MM wrote:

Ah! I'm retired. I wouldn't work now if you paid me! After 44 years of
grafting I reckon I've had enough of work. Besides, I have so many
hobbies, including DIY, I could never find the time for working.

I'm looking forward to this.

I'm
really enjoying doing what the heck I like when I like without all the
stress of office politics in an environment where I was treated like a
granddad as the oldest staff member. Heck, I was older than my managers!

I'm older than nearly everyone; the problem is the incompetence of
management. What this means is that other people invent silly rules, and
he (being weak) just agrees. It gets really annoying sometimes.

Two things really ****ed me off: annual appraisals, and meetings.
Especially the latter made all the junior management feel so
self-important and they had meetings all the ruddy time. I never
wanted to become a manager, but preferred to work on my projects
(computer programmer), which was far more interesting than organising
people. I've never had a lot of time for managers, I'm afraid.

MM

All that is the main reason I packed up working for someone else 30
years ago and although its not the easiest occupation running your own
business its much less stressful in so many ways oddly enough as you are
more in control of it.

Never looked back and still like what I'm doing, OK some days can be a
PITA but thats life!...

Can't be arsed to retire, sounds like getting olde and boring!..

But you WILL retire eventually and you'll need some hobbies! Else life
WILL be very boring.

MM

On Wed, 22 Apr 2015 18:26:02 +0100, MM wrote:

I am constantly surprised at some things. I had a nice creme caramel
from Sainsburys and it was only 110. Low fat sandwiches aren't all bad.
And the Be Good To Yourself range from Sainsburys is pretty nice.

Today (for lunch) I am having four Ryvita, butter, Ardennes pate,
cucumber and spring onion, and a mug of coffee. 391 calories.

There you go! A fairly healthy lunch, yet 391 cals quick as a flash!

I aim for no more than 500, or less if I can. Breakfast is about 350. I
save 20 kcal on every coffee by omitting the sugar.

Before I started seriously counting cals I didn't have a clue how many
were in any foods. No idea. But now, I look at a slice of bread and it
grows horns before my eyes.

Indeed. I quite like Ryvita (the dark rye one) and it's quite filling.

An egg OTOH always seems acceptable as it contains so many nutrients.

And they do fill you up too.

Right now, I reached the stage of the day
when I need to plan something for supper. So much for my 1500 cal
restriction this week! I've already consumed 1448 today. A small portion
of rice, mushrooms, spring onions and ham wouldn't be more than around
300 cals (cooked from scratch, not a ready meal). So that will come in
at around 1750 for the day. Plus another 72 if I eat a smallish Pink
Lady.

I have 837 left so can splurge a bit. I can even manage a bit of cake.

Also I reckon the *vast majority* among the general public don't have a
clue either how many calories foods contain, and I also reckon most
people, despite the obesity epidemic, which can't have escaped their
attention, do not check the labels on the front of food packages, tins
etc.

I certainly didn't till I started this. But I feel a lot better for it!

BTW, when I started this I concealed it from SWMBO (various workrounds
enabled this). I'd lost 3 stone before she said something.

--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £3 0a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

On Wed, 22 Apr 2015 18:28:17 +0100, MM wrote:

On Wed, 22 Apr 2015 12:35:28 +0100, tony sayer
wrote:

In article , MM
scribeth thus
On 21 Apr 2015 09:13:48 GMT, Bob Eager wrote:

On Tue, 21 Apr 2015 02:28:21 +0100, MM wrote:

Ah! I'm retired. I wouldn't work now if you paid me! After 44 years
of grafting I reckon I've had enough of work. Besides, I have so
many hobbies, including DIY, I could never find the time for
working.

I'm looking forward to this.

I'm really enjoying doing what the heck I like when I like without
all the stress of office politics in an environment where I was
treated like a granddad as the oldest staff member. Heck, I was
older than my managers!

I'm older than nearly everyone; the problem is the incompetence of
management. What this means is that other people invent silly rules,
and he (being weak) just agrees. It gets really annoying sometimes.

Two things really ****ed me off: annual appraisals, and meetings.
Especially the latter made all the junior management feel so
self-important and they had meetings all the ruddy time. I never wanted
to become a manager, but preferred to work on my projects (computer
programmer), which was far more interesting than organising people.
I've never had a lot of time for managers, I'm afraid.

MM

All that is the main reason I packed up working for someone else 30
years ago and although its not the easiest occupation running your own
business its much less stressful in so many ways oddly enough as you are
more in control of it.

Never looked back and still like what I'm doing, OK some days can be a
PITA but thats life!...

Can't be arsed to retire, sounds like getting olde and boring!..

But you WILL retire eventually and you'll need some hobbies! Else life
WILL be very boring.

I have all these things I don't have time for, so that won't be a
problem. And there is a load of voluntary stuff (I'm chair of the local
BCS branch).

--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £3 0a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

"Weatherlawyer" wrote in message
...
On Saturday, 18 April 2015 16:25:31 UTC+1, ARW wrote:
"Malcolm Race" wrote in message
...

although I played golf regularly

That is not a sport, an exercise.or DIY.

You mean he gets someone else to hit his balls with a stick?

He should get a job as your next apprentice.

So that I can hit his balls with a stick? Nice idea that.




--
Adam

On 22 Apr 2015 17:36:36 GMT, Bob Eager wrote:

On Wed, 22 Apr 2015 18:26:02 +0100, MM wrote:

I am constantly surprised at some things. I had a nice creme caramel
from Sainsburys and it was only 110. Low fat sandwiches aren't all bad.
And the Be Good To Yourself range from Sainsburys is pretty nice.

Today (for lunch) I am having four Ryvita, butter, Ardennes pate,
cucumber and spring onion, and a mug of coffee. 391 calories.

There you go! A fairly healthy lunch, yet 391 cals quick as a flash!

I aim for no more than 500, or less if I can. Breakfast is about 350. I
save 20 kcal on every coffee by omitting the sugar.

Before I started seriously counting cals I didn't have a clue how many
were in any foods. No idea. But now, I look at a slice of bread and it
grows horns before my eyes.

Indeed. I quite like Ryvita (the dark rye one) and it's quite filling.

An egg OTOH always seems acceptable as it contains so many nutrients.

And they do fill you up too.

Right now, I reached the stage of the day
when I need to plan something for supper. So much for my 1500 cal
restriction this week! I've already consumed 1448 today. A small portion
of rice, mushrooms, spring onions and ham wouldn't be more than around
300 cals (cooked from scratch, not a ready meal). So that will come in
at around 1750 for the day. Plus another 72 if I eat a smallish Pink
Lady.

I have 837 left so can splurge a bit. I can even manage a bit of cake.

837 !! Jeesh! That's almost a fish supper down at the local chippy!
(Why DO they serve such large portions, I wonder?)


Also I reckon the *vast majority* among the general public don't have a
clue either how many calories foods contain, and I also reckon most
people, despite the obesity epidemic, which can't have escaped their
attention, do not check the labels on the front of food packages, tins
etc.

I certainly didn't till I started this. But I feel a lot better for it!

BTW, when I started this I concealed it from SWMBO (various workrounds
enabled this). I'd lost 3 stone before she said something.

Ooh, that's not nice. I'm single (always have been), but my relatives
noticed the difference immediately. Acttually, that was probably
because they hadn't seen me for three months...

Thing is, I have photos of me aged 23-ish and I am as slim as a ballet
dancer (male ones, of course). I easily slid into 32" waist jeans. Now
it's 38" and trying for 36". I was a tubby baby and always loved my
food -- unlike my late sister to whom food was a necessary evil and
she only ever ate because, as a trained nurse, she knew she had to.
But I don't think she ever enjoyed food the way I do. She didn't have
an ounce of fat on her. Downside: She felt the cold something awful.

MM

In article , MM
scribeth thus
On Wed, 22 Apr 2015 12:35:28 +0100, tony sayer
wrote:

In article , MM
scribeth thus
On 21 Apr 2015 09:13:48 GMT, Bob Eager wrote:

On Tue, 21 Apr 2015 02:28:21 +0100, MM wrote:

Ah! I'm retired. I wouldn't work now if you paid me! After 44 years of
grafting I reckon I've had enough of work. Besides, I have so many
hobbies, including DIY, I could never find the time for working.

I'm looking forward to this.

I'm
really enjoying doing what the heck I like when I like without all the
stress of office politics in an environment where I was treated like a
granddad as the oldest staff member. Heck, I was older than my managers!

I'm older than nearly everyone; the problem is the incompetence of
management. What this means is that other people invent silly rules, and
he (being weak) just agrees. It gets really annoying sometimes.

Two things really ****ed me off: annual appraisals, and meetings.
Especially the latter made all the junior management feel so
self-important and they had meetings all the ruddy time. I never
wanted to become a manager, but preferred to work on my projects
(computer programmer), which was far more interesting than organising
people. I've never had a lot of time for managers, I'm afraid.

MM

All that is the main reason I packed up working for someone else 30
years ago and although its not the easiest occupation running your own
business its much less stressful in so many ways oddly enough as you are
more in control of it.

Never looked back and still like what I'm doing, OK some days can be a
PITA but thats life!...

Can't be arsed to retire, sounds like getting olde and boring!..

But you WILL retire eventually and you'll need some hobbies! Else life
WILL be very boring.

MM


Well work and the hobby are one and much the same...

Not boring at all thanks!..

--
Tony Sayer

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Tim Watts writes:
On 22/04/15 02:24, MM wrote:

Gonna have another stab at sleeping now...

Is the right answer

Having read this sub-thread, I feel very lucky to have had a number of
very good managers in my career (not all, but many of them), and I believe
I have been a good manager myself, learning from the better ones, and also
from the bad ones (what not to do;-).

A good manager is a leader whose job is to get the best from the team,

That's the theory, anyway. In reality its nothing like that.

understanding what drives each team member, what hinders them,

Very few can do anything like that. Few even understand that about
themselves.

and as far as is possible/reasonable, pushing the former

Very few have any real effect on anyone else like that.

and removing the latter.

Easier said than done.

As a manager, you should be on sufficently familiar terms
that your staff can share their issues with you, and you
should know what their longer term aims are,

Impossible when most don't even have any idea about that themselves.

and providing it matches the company's direction,
you can help them move towards those,

In theory. In practice that is hardly ever possible.

even if it means losing someone good from your
team to another role in the company (which is
always better than losing them to a competitor).

If you get an unexpected resignation, then you
weren't working well enough with that staff member.

That is just plain wrong. That unexpected resignation may
well have been because a better job has come up somewhere
else and the individual who decided to change jobs may well
have not even been aware that that was going to happen, so
there is no way that their manager is ever going to know that
no matter how good the manager is. In spades with an important
change in the individual's personal circumstances like say a spouse
has just be diagnosed with a potentially fatal medical problem
and that individual has decided to resign for that reason, so they
can assist the spouse when they need that assistance, while they
are still around.

Equally, if you get to an appraisal, there shouldn't be any
surprises on either side - everything mentioned should
have been covered in regular conversations and/or
regular 1-2-1s in the period since the last appraisal.

Real life isn't that predictable, **** happens.

It's also where the staff member gets a commitment from the
company on things like training needed over the following year.

That assumes that training is needed. It isn't for most of us.

Your manager rarely has complete control of compensation (pay,
bonuses, etc), and the appraisal is used to justify compensation
changes higher up the management and to HR, where they are
not going to know the staff member as well, if at all.

In practice not all that much of that happens in the real world.

(It's also necessary to protect companies from discrimination
cases which staff might bring if they think they have been
unfairly treated, if this was not the case.)

Companies which take management leadership seriously will usually
have some type of 360 degree appraisal system, where the staff also
appraise their manager via some type of anonymous or protected
feedback (and sometimes also their manager's manager).

Only in the worst of the bull**** brigade operations.

A poor manager/leader can seriously reduce the productivity
of whole teams, and that is an enormous unnecessary cost for
a company - indeed it is often the cause for a company to fail.

Yes, but again it's a lot easier said than done to avoid that happening.

In article ,
"Simon Brown" wrote:

It's also where the staff member gets a commitment from the
company on things like training needed over the following year.

That assumes that training is needed. It isn't for most of us.

[I haven't been following this thread but keep dropping in for a skim
through (since the thread is persisting so vigorously!)]

Your statement above caught my eye like a shooting star Simon: one of
the reasons that made life so utterly **** for me and my colleagues
(before I scuttled out to retirement when it dawned on me that I could),
was that the "new breed of management", imposed on us by an
institutional reorganisation, forced training on all and sundry,
whether they liked it or not, and whether they needed it or not.

The training schemes were (and still are) there not so much for the
staff as for the utterly ignorant management, so that they could tick
big fat boxes on their monthly Management Reports, and thus "prove" to
*their* management (who are even more remote form the actual work in
hand) that they were "doing their job".

And the job of management (in fatally crippled businesses like the one
that I was in) is nothing to do with the work in hand but simply to
"manage".
One of them even had the gall to say that, with a grin, in the
interminable meetings we were called to: "oh sorry - I know nothing
about that [the actual work that our department did] -- I'm just here to
manage, ha ha".

It made our blood boil: "to manage" had meant a whole new raft of
buffoons, totally ignorant of the work we did, coming in, at higher
salaries than any of us, bossing us around, and "reorganising" us ad
infinitum, and taking away our working hours with meetings,
time-consuming reports, and ... training.

But let me not get started.... :-D

John

Simon Brown wrote:

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message

A good manager is a leader whose job is to get the best from the team,

That's the theory, anyway. In reality its nothing like that.

I've long had concerns about what makes a good manager, having
experienced quite a lot of managers during my engineering career.

I've never worked with anybody who began straight off having
trained as a "manager", indeed can't quite see how anybody could
do this.

However, the other end of the scale, where promotion is based
only on engineering ability, is not without snags. There was a
time when my chief engineer and engineering manager, whilst both
excellent engineers, had no management skills. This was such a
shame, as their real talents were wasted, and their ineptitude
diminished the work of those in their charge.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK


Plant amazing Acers.

"Another John" wrote in message
]...
In article ,
"Simon Brown" wrote:

It's also where the staff member gets a commitment from the
company on things like training needed over the following year.

That assumes that training is needed. It isn't for most of us.

[I haven't been following this thread but keep dropping in for a skim
through (since the thread is persisting so vigorously!)]

Your statement above caught my eye like a shooting star Simon: one of
the reasons that made life so utterly **** for me and my colleagues
(before I scuttled out to retirement when it dawned on me that I could),
was that the "new breed of management", imposed on us by an
institutional reorganisation, forced training on all and sundry,
whether they liked it or not, and whether they needed it or not.

Yeah, given that I never had even one for anything I spent most
of my working life doing, computer hardware/software/programming,
standing with a PDP8 and IBM 360/50, I've always thought that
training courses were for the birds.

I also built my house from scratch on a bare block
of land without any training courses for that either.

And I'm not one of those who don’t believe in any formal
education, I do have a post graduate uni degree.

In fact I have provided quite a bit of training
myself, both at the degree level and elsewhere.

The training schemes were (and still are) there not so much for the
staff as for the utterly ignorant management, so that they could tick
big fat boxes on their monthly Management Reports, and thus "prove" to
*their* management (who are even more remote form the actual work in
hand) that they were "doing their job".

Some people do prefer formal training, but I'm not one of them.

And the job of management (in fatally crippled businesses like the one
that I was in) is nothing to do with the work in hand but simply to
"manage".

One of them even had the gall to say that, with a grin, in the
interminable meetings we were called to: "oh sorry - I know nothing
about that [the actual work that our department did] -- I'm just here to
manage, ha ha".

Yeah, clearly a complete fool.

It made our blood boil: "to manage" had meant a whole new raft of
buffoons, totally ignorant of the work we did, coming in, at higher
salaries than any of us, bossing us around, and "reorganising" us ad
infinitum, and taking away our working hours with meetings,
time-consuming reports, and ... training.

But let me not get started.... :-D

On Wed, 22 Apr 2015 22:28:24 +0100, tony sayer
wrote:

Well work and the hobby are one and much the same...

No, no! A hobby doesn't HAVE to be completed on time, work does. With
work, you are obligated to your employer to turn up, do the job on
time, do a proper job and so on. It's totally different from doing
something on a hobby basis.

MM

On 23/04/2015 08:02, Chris J Dixon wrote:
Simon Brown wrote:

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message

A good manager is a leader whose job is to get the best from the team,

That's the theory, anyway. In reality its nothing like that.

I've long had concerns about what makes a good manager, having
experienced quite a lot of managers during my engineering career.

I've never worked with anybody who began straight off having
trained as a "manager", indeed can't quite see how anybody could
do this.

However, the other end of the scale, where promotion is based
only on engineering ability, is not without snags. There was a
time when my chief engineer and engineering manager, whilst both
excellent engineers, had no management skills. This was such a
shame, as their real talents were wasted, and their ineptitude
diminished the work of those in their charge.

Chris


I've often wondered how it is that the staff at Aldi seem so cheerful,
efficient, and happy with their lot. Even the security guard knows where
everything is in the store. There is a manager but he is either on the
till or stacking shelves. Go figure, Tesco.

In article ,
MM wrote:
On Wed, 22 Apr 2015 22:28:24 +0100, tony sayer
wrote:

Well work and the hobby are one and much the same...

No, no! A hobby doesn't HAVE to be completed on time, work does. With
work, you are obligated to your employer to turn up, do the job on
time, do a proper job and so on. It's totally different from doing
something on a hobby basis.

If your hobby involves nobody else, that's probably true. If you are
involved with others in can be just like work - but you don't get paid. For
instance, I'm in a music group; we need to turn up to rehearsals and
performances.

--
From KT24 in Surrey

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

"MM" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 22 Apr 2015 22:28:24 +0100, tony sayer
wrote:

Well work and the hobby are one and much the same...

No, no! A hobby doesn't HAVE to be completed on time, work does.

Not if you are self employed.

With work, you are obligated to your employer to turn
up, do the job on time, do a proper job and so on.

Again, not if you are self employed.

It's totally different from doing something on a hobby basis.

Nope. Some of us are the fortunate position that someone
has actually been stupid enough to pay us very well indeed
to do what we would happily do for free.

On Thursday, 23 April 2015 08:56:28 UTC+1, stuart noble wrote:
I've often wondered how it is that the staff at Aldi seem so cheerful,
efficient, and happy with their lot. Even the security guard knows where
everything is in the store. There is a manager but he is either on the
till or stacking shelves. Go figure, Tesco.

Aldi pay store assistants £8.15 to £9.75 per hour. Even Apprentices start on £5.30.

Owain

On Thu, 23 Apr 2015 08:47:23 +0100, MM wrote:

On Wed, 22 Apr 2015 22:28:24 +0100, tony sayer
wrote:

Well work and the hobby are one and much the same...

No, no! A hobby doesn't HAVE to be completed on time, work does. With
work, you are obligated to your employer to turn up, do the job on time,
do a proper job and so on. It's totally different from doing something
on a hobby basis.

And that applies when choosing a degree, as I say in my school talks time
and again.

They still get it wrong, the best on being the one who eventually
transferred to Computer Science from "Classical Civilisation and
Archaeology". We get a lot of transfers from Physics too (c.f. Tim Watts!)



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On Thu, 23 Apr 2015 07:57:36 +0100, Another John wrote:

Your statement above caught my eye like a shooting star Simon: one of
the reasons that made life so utterly **** for me and my colleagues
(before I scuttled out to retirement when it dawned on me that I could),
was that the "new breed of management", imposed on us by an
institutional reorganisation, forced training on all and sundry,
whether they liked it or not, and whether they needed it or not.

SWMBO is in charge of computing for an FE college.

She still has to go on 'IT training' despite teaching exactly the same
stuff at a much more advanced level. The box must be ticked.



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wish to copy them they can pay me £3 0a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

In article ,
Chris J Dixon writes:
Simon Brown wrote:

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message

A good manager is a leader whose job is to get the best from the team,

That's the theory, anyway. In reality its nothing like that.

I've long had concerns about what makes a good manager, having
experienced quite a lot of managers during my engineering career.

I've never worked with anybody who began straight off having
trained as a "manager", indeed can't quite see how anybody could
do this.

One of my managers early in my career had been a captain or some rank
in the army where he was leading a bunch of soldiers. His ability to
motivate us was incredible - he had us slogging our guts out, and
enjoying every moment of it. He didn't have a clue about what we did
technically - he trusted us when we provided him info on progress, etc,
and we trusted him to look after us, which he did superbly. I learned
a lot from him, and put it into use when I was managing a team.

This was in stark contrast to the manager I had beforehand, who was
an engineer (but not up-to-date with current technology) who had been
promoted to a manager, but had no skills in that direction at all. It
was very useful to be able to contrast their two behaviours in similar
situations.

However, the other end of the scale, where promotion is based
only on engineering ability, is not without snags. There was a
time when my chief engineer and engineering manager, whilst both
excellent engineers, had no management skills. This was such a
shame, as their real talents were wasted, and their ineptitude
diminished the work of those in their charge.

Yes, this is common - people keep getting promoted until they reach
a level at which they are not compitent, and then stay there. It's
not helped by most companies having a structure where you can only
be promoted a little before becoming a manager. I was lucky to work
at Sun Microsystems, where there were equivalent management and
engineering roles at every level up the hierarchy, which is how you
retain the world's best engineers without forcing them to do
something else they are often no good at, or losing them.

There are some engineers who also make good managers - I know a few,
but it is rather more the exception than the norm.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

In article ,
"Simon Brown" writes:
"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
Having read this sub-thread, I feel very lucky to have had a number of
very good managers in my career (not all, but many of them), and I believe
I have been a good manager myself, learning from the better ones, and also
from the bad ones (what not to do;-).

A good manager is a leader whose job is to get the best from the team,

That's the theory, anyway. In reality its nothing like that.

understanding what drives each team member, what hinders them,

Very few can do anything like that. Few even understand that about
themselves.

[...]

Wow - have you never worked for a good manager?

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Simon Brown" writes:
"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
Having read this sub-thread, I feel very lucky to have had a number of
very good managers in my career (not all, but many of them), and I
believe
I have been a good manager myself, learning from the better ones, and
also
from the bad ones (what not to do;-).

A good manager is a leader whose job is to get the best from the team,

That's the theory, anyway. In reality its nothing like that.

understanding what drives each team member, what hinders them,

Very few can do anything like that. Few even understand that about
themselves.

[...]

Wow - have you never worked for a good manager?

I have actually. He was notorious for saying 'what ho' as he passed
you in the corridor and we were very amused when he asked
someone who one of the more unusual unkempt bears of a
person was. He'd been working there for years when he asked.

Left the ones who replaced him when he retired for
dead as far as it being a very decent place to work for.

One of his replacements managed to produce a full
scale mutiny with the organisation having to send in
some fool when we were talking about a bus trip to
head office to get something done about him.

He did get the bums rush.

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Chris J Dixon writes:
Simon Brown wrote:

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message

A good manager is a leader whose job is to get the best from the team,

That's the theory, anyway. In reality its nothing like that.

I've long had concerns about what makes a good manager, having
experienced quite a lot of managers during my engineering career.

I've never worked with anybody who began straight off having
trained as a "manager", indeed can't quite see how anybody could
do this.

One of my managers early in my career had been a captain or some rank
in the army where he was leading a bunch of soldiers. His ability to
motivate us was incredible - he had us slogging our guts out, and
enjoying every moment of it.

That would never have worked in the operation I worked for for 25 years.

He didn't have a clue about what we did
technically - he trusted us when we provided him info on progress, etc,
and we trusted him to look after us, which he did superbly. I learned
a lot from him, and put it into use when I was managing a team.

This was in stark contrast to the manager I had beforehand, who was
an engineer (but not up-to-date with current technology) who had been
promoted to a manager, but had no skills in that direction at all. It
was very useful to be able to contrast their two behaviours in similar
situations.

However, the other end of the scale, where promotion is based
only on engineering ability, is not without snags. There was a
time when my chief engineer and engineering manager, whilst both
excellent engineers, had no management skills. This was such a
shame, as their real talents were wasted, and their ineptitude
diminished the work of those in their charge.

Yes, this is common - people keep getting promoted until they reach
a level at which they are not compitent, and then stay there. It's
not helped by most companies having a structure where you can only
be promoted a little before becoming a manager. I was lucky to work
at Sun Microsystems, where there were equivalent management and
engineering roles at every level up the hierarchy, which is how you
retain the world's best engineers without forcing them to do
something else they are often no good at, or losing them.

There are some engineers who also make good managers

Yeah, the best one I ever saw was an engineer.

- I know a few,
but it is rather more the exception than the norm.

That is true of all the best managers.

On Thu, 23 Apr 2015 10:00:41 +0000 (UTC),
(Andrew Gabriel) wrote:

One of my managers early in my career had been a captain or some rank
in the army where he was leading a bunch of soldiers. His ability to
motivate us was incredible - he had us slogging our guts out, and
enjoying every moment of it. He didn't have a clue about what we did
technically - he trusted us when we provided him info on progress, etc,
and we trusted him to look after us, which he did superbly. I learned
a lot from him, and put it into use when I was managing a team.

We had an ex-army bloke (I think he had been a WO or somesuch) as
manager at one of the music businesses I worked for in the early days.
It didn't work out so well for us, I'm afraid. He "managed" to get
everybody against him. His one weakness was his refusal to use the
works canteen and to bring in his own, personal supply of coffee and
dried milk. One of the engineers (not me!) spiked his dried milk with
Sennakot.

He started getting the runs and becoming dehydrated so he drank more
coffee...

After a week or so, someone took pity on him and swapped in a new
suppy of dried milk.

He left soon after that but unfortunately I wasn't there to see him
go.

Nick

On Wednesday, 22 April 2015 15:03:54 UTC+1, DJC wrote:
On 22/04/15 08:02, Tim Watts wrote:
On 22/04/15 07:44, DJC wrote:
On 22/04/15 07:27, Tim Watts wrote:
On 22/04/15 02:07, MM wrote:

Well, they were the ones who became managers. There's always one.

Not always true.

In academia, you might find the dept run more or less day to day by some
"administrator" who slides in sideways and has no academic
qualifications at all. Boy does that **** people off.

Well, better than than leaving administration to academics.

It's more than admin.

Nothing puts a professor's nose out of joint than having an admin person
approve his annual leave request.

As I said, academics are status concious, not always with good reason.

it depends on whether or not the admin know what's going on.
Yesterday the admin department sent an email on where to take used batteries for reclying.
They got the room number wrong and the exact location wrong.
They added an E to the front of our room numbers too.
The fire marshel list on the H&S website is 4 years out of date, some of those listed as fire marshels don't even live in this country any more.


More seriously, the admin person does not understand the business of the
department and thus frequently comes up with stupid pronouncements.

Some do, others know a lot more than the academics.

But the problem is they purely use paper qualifications to work out who knows the most and who should be put in charge or who.

In article , MM
scribeth thus
On Wed, 22 Apr 2015 22:28:24 +0100, tony sayer
wrote:

Well work and the hobby are one and much the same...

No, no! A hobby doesn't HAVE to be completed on time, work does. With
work, you are obligated to your employer to turn up, do the job on
time, do a proper job and so on. It's totally different from doing
something on a hobby basis.

MM


Well I am the employer and the radio spectrum is a broad church....

--
Tony Sayer

In article , Chris J Dixon
scribeth thus
Simon Brown wrote:

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message

A good manager is a leader whose job is to get the best from the team,

That's the theory, anyway. In reality its nothing like that.

I've long had concerns about what makes a good manager, having
experienced quite a lot of managers during my engineering career.

I've never worked with anybody who began straight off having
trained as a "manager", indeed can't quite see how anybody could
do this.

However, the other end of the scale, where promotion is based
only on engineering ability, is not without snags. There was a
time when my chief engineer and engineering manager, whilst both
excellent engineers, had no management skills. This was such a
shame, as their real talents were wasted, and their ineptitude
diminished the work of those in their charge.

Chris

I haven't worked at that many places but I have seen good and very bad
management. One of the best was at Cambridge systems technology who used
to make the Audiolab range of hi-fi equipment's and that was run very
well indeed by Phil Swift who now owns Spendor loudspeakers in Hailsham
he had that skill of getting what he wanted out of the workforce and
keeping them very loyal whilst about it, and quite well paid too

Also another notable was Audix Broadcast now no more, a very pleasant
place to work also...


--
Tony Sayer

On 19/04/2015 11:32, Huge wrote:
On 2015-04-18, wrote:
On Saturday, 18 April 2015 16:25:31 UTC+1, ARW wrote:
"Malcolm Race" wrote in message
...

although I played golf regularly

That is not a sport, an exercise.or DIY.

probably appropriate exercise at age 80, but otherwise I've never seen the point

A walk in the country, spoiled.


It's part of the imaginary exercise scale. First cricket, then golf,
then crown bowls.

Cheers
--
Syd

In article ,
Andrew Gabriel wrote:
This was in stark contrast to the manager I had beforehand, who was
an engineer (but not up-to-date with current technology) who had been
promoted to a manager, but had no skills in that direction at all. It
was very useful to be able to contrast their two behaviours in similar
situations.

One company I worked for had an HOD who was not only a superb manager, but
had also been an excellent at the job when still operational. Probably the
best combination possible.

The worst is often those who weren't that good at a job but get promoted
to be in charge.

--
Is the hardness of the butter proportional to the softness of the bread?*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Thu, 23 Apr 2015 14:09:32 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
Andrew Gabriel wrote:
This was in stark contrast to the manager I had beforehand, who was an
engineer (but not up-to-date with current technology) who had been
promoted to a manager, but had no skills in that direction at all. It
was very useful to be able to contrast their two behaviours in similar
situations.

One company I worked for had an HOD who was not only a superb manager,
but had also been an excellent at the job when still operational.
Probably the best combination possible.

The worst is often those who weren't that good at a job but get promoted
to be in charge.

The well known Peter Principle.



--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £3 0a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

On Thu, 23 Apr 2015 09:20:35 +0100, charles
wrote:

In article ,
MM wrote:
On Wed, 22 Apr 2015 22:28:24 +0100, tony sayer
wrote:

Well work and the hobby are one and much the same...

No, no! A hobby doesn't HAVE to be completed on time, work does. With
work, you are obligated to your employer to turn up, do the job on
time, do a proper job and so on. It's totally different from doing
something on a hobby basis.

If your hobby involves nobody else, that's probably true. If you are
involved with others in can be just like work - but you don't get paid.

But it's still YOUR choice as to whether you do it or not. With work,
presumably a job is needed to pay the bills and you don't have any
choice.

For
instance, I'm in a music group; we need to turn up to rehearsals and
performances.

But if you wanted to stop, you could. Your hobby doesn't pay the bills
(otherwise it's not a hobby, it's work).

MM

On Thu, 23 Apr 2015 18:32:59 +1000, "Rod Speed"
wrote:



"MM" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 22 Apr 2015 22:28:24 +0100, tony sayer
wrote:

Well work and the hobby are one and much the same...

No, no! A hobby doesn't HAVE to be completed on time, work does.

Not if you are self employed.

With work, you are obligated to your employer to turn
up, do the job on time, do a proper job and so on.

Again, not if you are self employed.

Of course it does! Otherwise Watchdog with Anne Robinson has a message
for you!


It's totally different from doing something on a hobby basis.

Nope. Some of us are the fortunate position that someone
has actually been stupid enough to pay us very well indeed
to do what we would happily do for free.

So it's work, not a hobby. I liked my job before retirement too. It
was a job though, not a hobby.

MM

On Thu, 23 Apr 2015 08:56:27 +0100, stuart noble
wrote:

On 23/04/2015 08:02, Chris J Dixon wrote:
Simon Brown wrote:

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message

A good manager is a leader whose job is to get the best from the team,

That's the theory, anyway. In reality its nothing like that.

I've long had concerns about what makes a good manager, having
experienced quite a lot of managers during my engineering career.

I've never worked with anybody who began straight off having
trained as a "manager", indeed can't quite see how anybody could
do this.

However, the other end of the scale, where promotion is based
only on engineering ability, is not without snags. There was a
time when my chief engineer and engineering manager, whilst both
excellent engineers, had no management skills. This was such a
shame, as their real talents were wasted, and their ineptitude
diminished the work of those in their charge.

Chris


I've often wondered how it is that the staff at Aldi seem so cheerful,
efficient, and happy with their lot. Even the security guard knows where
everything is in the store. There is a manager but he is either on the
till or stacking shelves. Go figure, Tesco.

Many are foreigners. Many employers in Britain prefer to hire them, as
they are much more committed to work than some of our own lot. They
know what the job at Aldi entails before they join. Aldi has the
fastest checkouts bar none.

MM

On Thursday, 23 April 2015 14:32:23 UTC+1, MM wrote:
On Thu, 23 Apr 2015 18:32:59 +1000, "Rod Speed"
wrote:

"MM" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 22 Apr 2015 22:28:24 +0100, tony sayer
wrote:

Well work and the hobby are one and much the same...

No, no! A hobby doesn't HAVE to be completed on time, work does.

Not if you are self employed.

With work, you are obligated to your employer to turn
up, do the job on time, do a proper job and so on.

Again, not if you are self employed.

Of course it does! Otherwise Watchdog with Anne Robinson has a message
for you!

Pity we can't use watchdog for political parties isn't it.
i;e you've not done what you said when we employed you.
But I guess polititions will say we don't employ them.


So it's work, not a hobby. I liked my job before retirement too. It
was a job though, not a hobby.

My job was a hobby before it became a job that's when I got bored of it.

On Thursday, 23 April 2015 14:34:33 UTC+1, MM wrote:
On Thu, 23 Apr 2015 08:56:27 +0100, stuart noble
wrote:

On 23/04/2015 08:02, Chris J Dixon wrote:
Simon Brown wrote:

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message

A good manager is a leader whose job is to get the best from the team,

That's the theory, anyway. In reality its nothing like that.

I've long had concerns about what makes a good manager, having
experienced quite a lot of managers during my engineering career.

I've never worked with anybody who began straight off having
trained as a "manager", indeed can't quite see how anybody could
do this.

However, the other end of the scale, where promotion is based
only on engineering ability, is not without snags. There was a
time when my chief engineer and engineering manager, whilst both
excellent engineers, had no management skills. This was such a
shame, as their real talents were wasted, and their ineptitude
diminished the work of those in their charge.

Chris


I've often wondered how it is that the staff at Aldi seem so cheerful,
efficient, and happy with their lot. Even the security guard knows where
everything is in the store. There is a manager but he is either on the
till or stacking shelves. Go figure, Tesco.

Many are foreigners. Many employers in Britain prefer to hire them, as
they are much more committed to work than some of our own lot.

They'll also work cheaper, longer hours and more liley to let slide any H&S issues that might reduce company profits.

They
know what the job at Aldi entails before they join. Aldi has the
fastest checkouts bar none.

I've only shopped in aldi a couple of times and never noticed it being faster than anywhere else. In fact once it was slower much slower, when a eastern european customer tried it on with the eastern european checkout assistant say how in their country if you brought 2 of any item you could barter down the price.

On Thu, 23 Apr 2015 07:32:53 -0700 (PDT), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Thursday, 23 April 2015 14:34:33 UTC+1, MM wrote:
On Thu, 23 Apr 2015 08:56:27 +0100, stuart noble
wrote:

On 23/04/2015 08:02, Chris J Dixon wrote:
Simon Brown wrote:

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message

A good manager is a leader whose job is to get the best from the team,

That's the theory, anyway. In reality its nothing like that.

I've long had concerns about what makes a good manager, having
experienced quite a lot of managers during my engineering career.

I've never worked with anybody who began straight off having
trained as a "manager", indeed can't quite see how anybody could
do this.

However, the other end of the scale, where promotion is based
only on engineering ability, is not without snags. There was a
time when my chief engineer and engineering manager, whilst both
excellent engineers, had no management skills. This was such a
shame, as their real talents were wasted, and their ineptitude
diminished the work of those in their charge.

Chris


I've often wondered how it is that the staff at Aldi seem so cheerful,
efficient, and happy with their lot. Even the security guard knows where
everything is in the store. There is a manager but he is either on the
till or stacking shelves. Go figure, Tesco.

Many are foreigners. Many employers in Britain prefer to hire them, as
they are much more committed to work than some of our own lot.

They'll also work cheaper, longer hours and more liley to let slide any H&S issues that might reduce company profits.

They
know what the job at Aldi entails before they join. Aldi has the
fastest checkouts bar none.

I've only shopped in aldi a couple of times and never noticed it being faster than anywhere else. In fact once it was slower much slower, when a eastern european customer tried it on with the eastern european checkout assistant say how in their country if you brought 2 of any item you could barter down the price.

You must be the only person in the world to have experienced a slow
Aldi checkout, then.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qmjoLWv6cA

MM

On Thursday, 23 April 2015 16:27:20 UTC+1, MM wrote:
On Thu, 23 Apr 2015 07:32:53 -0700 (PDT), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Thursday, 23 April 2015 14:34:33 UTC+1, MM wrote:
On Thu, 23 Apr 2015 08:56:27 +0100, stuart noble
wrote:

On 23/04/2015 08:02, Chris J Dixon wrote:
Simon Brown wrote:

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message

A good manager is a leader whose job is to get the best from the team,

That's the theory, anyway. In reality its nothing like that.

I've long had concerns about what makes a good manager, having
experienced quite a lot of managers during my engineering career.

I've never worked with anybody who began straight off having
trained as a "manager", indeed can't quite see how anybody could
do this.

However, the other end of the scale, where promotion is based
only on engineering ability, is not without snags. There was a
time when my chief engineer and engineering manager, whilst both
excellent engineers, had no management skills. This was such a
shame, as their real talents were wasted, and their ineptitude
diminished the work of those in their charge.

Chris


I've often wondered how it is that the staff at Aldi seem so cheerful,
efficient, and happy with their lot. Even the security guard knows where
everything is in the store. There is a manager but he is either on the
till or stacking shelves. Go figure, Tesco.

Many are foreigners. Many employers in Britain prefer to hire them, as
they are much more committed to work than some of our own lot.

They'll also work cheaper, longer hours and more liley to let slide any H&S issues that might reduce company profits.

They
know what the job at Aldi entails before they join. Aldi has the
fastest checkouts bar none.

I've only shopped in aldi a couple of times and never noticed it being faster than anywhere else. In fact once it was slower much slower, when a eastern european customer tried it on with the eastern european checkout assistant say how in their country if you brought 2 of any item you could barter down the price.

You must be the only person in the world to have experienced a slow
Aldi checkout, then.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qmjoLWv6cA

Have you read the comments which include.
"I'm faster than her and I don't throw the shopping into the shopping trolley...For me she looks more like a beginner"