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UK diy (uk.d-i-y) For the discussion of all topics related to diy (do-it-yourself) in the UK. All levels of experience and proficency are welcome to join in to ask questions or offer solutions. |
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#1
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DIY FAQ & Wiki - hosting migration
Hi all,
As some of you will remember, I currently host the DIY FAQ and Wiki. The server they are currently on needs to undergo some maintenance, and as such I need to migrate both sites to a new server. The FAQ is easy - it's small, and takes no time at all. The Wiki is a monster - the database alone is over 400Mb, plus another few hundred Mb in image files. I'd like to get the migration done this weekend. To this end, I request that no changes are made to the sites (including adding/editing Wiki content) from tonight until Monday night. Any changes made will be lost! I've emailed Phil about this, and he's ready to repoint the domains as soon as I'm done. I hope this doesn't inconvenience anyone, and expect normal service to be resumed shortly. No site downtime is anticipated. I will post a notice on this thread once the migration is complete. -- Grunff |
#2
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DIY FAQ & Wiki - hosting migration
On Aug 8, 9:21*pm, Grunff wrote:
Hi all, As some of you will remember, I currently host the DIY FAQ and Wiki. The server they are currently on needs to undergo some maintenance, and as such I need to migrate both sites to a new server. The FAQ is easy - it's small, and takes no time at all. The Wiki is a monster - the database alone is over 400Mb, plus another few hundred Mb in image files. I'd like to get the migration done this weekend. To this end, I request that no changes are made to the sites (including adding/editing Wiki content) from tonight until Monday night. Maybe I'll get some sleep then NT |
#3
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DIY FAQ & Wiki - hosting migration
Grunff wrote:
I hope this doesn't inconvenience anyone, and expect normal service to be resumed shortly. No site downtime is anticipated. I will post a notice on this thread once the migration is complete. Ok, this is now done. I've deleted a handful of records which were just enormous, and contained almost nothing but spam. If anyone notices anything important missing, or anything not working correctly, do let me know. As always, the email address is valid. -- Grunff |
#4
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DIY FAQ & Wiki
On Fri, 08 Aug 2008 21:21:23 +0100, in uk.d-i-y Grunff
wrote: Subject: DIY FAQ & Wiki - hosting migration Hi all, As some of you will remember, I currently host the DIY FAQ and Wiki. The server they are currently on needs to undergo some maintenance, and as such I need to migrate both sites to a new server. The FAQ is easy - it's small, and takes no time at all. The Wiki is a monster - the database alone is over 400Mb, plus another few hundred Mb in image files. I'd like to get the migration done this weekend. To this end, I request that no changes are made to the sites (including adding/editing Wiki content) from tonight until Monday night. Any changes made will be lost! I've emailed Phil about this, and he's ready to repoint the domains as soon as I'm done. I hope this doesn't inconvenience anyone, and expect normal service to be resumed shortly. No site downtime is anticipated. I will post a notice on this thread once the migration is complete. [Was: DIY FAQ & Wiki - hosting migration] I haven't been around for a while to do anything to the FAQ due to family commitments, and wonder if its time for the FAQ to be integrated into the Wiki somehow? Is that practical and does anyone feel like doing it? - I can't see me being able to do it in the near future. In fact is there anyone willing to take on the FAQ editing/maintenance task too? The Wiki has got some good stuff in it now, but I see a problem in that although one can find articles by searching, there is no mechanism for browsing it in a structured way. To answer the question "What is in the Wiki?" one has to visit every article in the contents list (actually just an index) which itself is well hidden under "See Also" at the very bottom of the Main Page. I know non-structuredness is inherent in Wikis, but wouldn't it be possible to construct a structured Main Page consisting of a hierarchical list containing links pointing to the existing articles? This would make the Wiki more accessible to those that don't have an immediate DIY task to search for, but want to browse for inspiration. There is an old suggestion for a structure at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/beta/FAQ_Pr...tents_List.doc Phil (sometime) FAQ Editor Phil The uk.d-i-y FAQ is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/ The Google uk.d-i-y archive is at http://tinyurl.com/65kwq Remove NOSPAM from address to email me |
#5
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DIY FAQ & Wiki
In article ,
Phil Addison writes: [Was: DIY FAQ & Wiki - hosting migration] I haven't been around for a while to do anything to the FAQ due to family commitments, and wonder if its time for the FAQ to be integrated into the Wiki somehow? Is that practical and does anyone feel like doing You can't just fold it in - only the copyright owners can do that as only they can change their copyright assignments to be suitable for Wiki use. it? - I can't see me being able to do it in the near future. In fact is there anyone willing to take on the FAQ editing/maintenance task too? -- Andrew Gabriel [email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup] |
#6
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DIY FAQ & Wiki
but the wiki could have links to individual pages in the faq without violating copyright... (please (maybe after the weekend maintenance) remind us all of where the faq and wiki and google newsgroup archives are!) [george] You can't just fold it in - only the copyright owners can do that as only they can change their copyright assignments to be suitable for Wiki use. it? - I can't see me being able to do it in the near future. In fact is there anyone willing to take on the FAQ editing/maintenance task too? -- Andrew Gabriel [email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup] |
#8
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DIY FAQ & Wiki
On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 12:08:24 +0100, in uk.d-i-y Owain
wrote: Phil Addison wrote: The Wiki has got some good stuff in it now, but I see a problem in that although one can find articles by searching, there is no mechanism for browsing it in a structured way. To answer the question "What is in the Wiki?" one has to visit every article in the contents list (actually just an index) which itself is well hidden under "See Also" at the very bottom of the Main Page. I know non-structuredness is inherent in Wikis, but wouldn't it be possible to construct a structured Main Page consisting of a hierarchical list containing links pointing to the existing articles? There is a Categories page at http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...ial:Categories Its not structured though it might be made more prominent on the entry page though. Yes Phil |
#9
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DIY FAQ & Wiki
On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 10:36:01 +0100, in uk.d-i-y "George \(dicegeorge\)"
wrote: (please (maybe after the weekend maintenance) remind us all of where the faq and wiki and google newsgroup archives are!) http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/ http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/ http://groups.google.com/group/uk.d-i-y/topics http://groups.google.com/advanced_search Phil |
#10
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DIY FAQ & Wiki
Phil Addison wrote:
Its not structured though As I've said before, I agree with Phil about this - I don't like the lack of hierarchy in wikis. However, since the whole world seems to disagree with me on this, and everyone seems to love wikis despite their complete lack of structure, who am I to argue ;-) -- Grunff |
#11
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DIY FAQ & Wiki
On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 22:12:40 +0100, Grunff wrote:
Its not structured though As I've said before, I agree with Phil about this - I don't like the lack of hierarchy in wikis. That is up to the people who manage the wiki, it's quite possible to have a decent hierarchy with the use of categories and sub categories. Take a look at http://wiki.ibs.org.uk/faq/index.php?title=Main_Page for one with some semblance of order. (I do try an maintain that one). -- Cheers Dave. |
#12
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DIY FAQ & Wiki
On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 23:06:15 +0100 (BST), in uk.d-i-y "Dave Liquorice"
wrote: On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 22:12:40 +0100, Grunff wrote: Phil Addison wrote: Its not structured though As I've said before, I agree with Phil about this - I don't like the lack of hierarchy in wikis. That is up to the people who manage the wiki, it's quite possible to have a decent hierarchy with the use of categories and sub categories. Take a look at http://wiki.ibs.org.uk/faq/index.php?title=Main_Page for one with some semblance of order. (I do try an maintain that one). That's encouraging; and it does seem to give an approximation to a structured look, though as far as I can tell your Wiki only has sub-categories in the equipment section. Do you know if its possible to make a sub-category list appear nested inside the parent category list, and on the same page' as opposed to a separate page as both yours and 'ours' do? (BTW Dave, it took me a while to realize your Wiki has nothing to do with Irritable Bowel Syndrome!!) To the actual authors of the DIY Wiki, do you have an opinion on this? Phil |
#13
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DIY FAQ & Wiki
On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 22:50:12 GMT, Phil Addison wrote:
That's encouraging; and it does seem to give an approximation to a structured look, though as far as I can tell your Wiki only has sub-categories in the equipment section. Yes that is correct, but illustrates what can be done. Looking at the great long "Technical" category that could do with some sub-categories. Do you know if its possible to make a sub-category list appear nested inside the parent category list, and on the same page' as opposed to a separate page as both yours and 'ours' do? Not quite sure I follow what you are asking. The category list that is displayed at the top each category page in the IBSFaq wiki and on the main page comes from a template and is hard coded. I could hard code the sub-categories into that list. I don't know of an automagic way of generating the category list for display in a page. The special page "Categories" just lists them all without paying attention to any arbitary parent/child relationships. (BTW Dave, it took me a while to realize your Wiki has nothing to do with Irritable Bowel Syndrome!!) It's not my wiki but that of the Institute of Broadcast Sound, I just help maintain it. If you forget the .uk you end up with the International Bible Society... -- Cheers Dave. |
#14
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DIY FAQ & Wiki
Dave Liquorice wrote:
That is up to the people who manage the wiki, it's quite possible to have a decent hierarchy with the use of categories and sub categories. Take a look at http://wiki.ibs.org.uk/faq/index.php?title=Main_Page for one with some semblance of order. (I do try an maintain that one). While you've made a good navigational structure for the data within your wiki (well done!), the fact remains that the way the data is stored is inherently non-hirerarchical. There are no fixed relationships between categories and articles other than those you have created in the navigation system. This goes against everything I know about data management, which is why I dislike wikis. -- Grunff |
#15
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DIY FAQ & Wiki
On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 20:33:48 +0100, Grunff wrote:
While you've made a good navigational structure for the data within your wiki (well done!), the fact remains that the way the data is stored is inherently non-hirerarchical. There are no fixed relationships between categories and articles other than those you have created in the navigation system. Thank you and yes I agree there is nothing in the actual, under the hood, wiki database that links anything to anything else except when it is included in the navigation. This makes a wiki rather powerful and as always with power comes responsibilty to use that power wisely. -- Cheers Dave. |
#16
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DIY FAQ & Wiki
Dave Liquorice wrote:
Thank you and yes I agree there is nothing in the actual, under the hood, wiki database that links anything to anything else except when it is included in the navigation. This makes a wiki rather powerful and as always with power comes responsibilty to use that power wisely. It certainly makes a wiki flexible, but it also creates a huge amount of extra work, required to achieve any semblance of a hierarchy. Wikis offer the most flexible type of index, which is why people love them. I just like my information to have a built-in level of organisation, even if it means imposing some limitations :-) -- Grunff |
#17
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DIY FAQ & Wiki
On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 22:21:25 +0100, in uk.d-i-y Grunff
wrote: Dave Liquorice wrote: Thank you and yes I agree there is nothing in the actual, under the hood, wiki database that links anything to anything else except when it is included in the navigation. This makes a wiki rather powerful and as always with power comes responsibilty to use that power wisely. It certainly makes a wiki flexible, but it also creates a huge amount of extra work, required to achieve any semblance of a hierarchy. Wikis offer the most flexible type of index, which is why people love them. I just like my information to have a built-in level of organisation, even if it means imposing some limitations :-) Hmmm... sounds as if there could be a parallel scheme, with a nice neat hierarchical structure, and drawing its content from the Wiki articles, either by snapshot imports or by simply linking to them. It could be called The uk.d-i-y FAQ. Just needs a volunteer! Phil G |
#18
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DIY FAQ & Wiki
On Aug 14, 11:03*pm, Phil Addison wrote:
On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 22:21:25 +0100, in uk.d-i-y Grunff wrote: Dave Liquorice wrote: Thank you and yes I agree there is nothing in the actual, under the hood, wiki database that links anything to anything else except when it is included in the navigation. This makes a wiki rather powerful and as always with power comes responsibilty to use that power wisely. It certainly makes a wiki flexible, but it also creates a huge amount of extra work, required to achieve any semblance of a hierarchy. Wikis offer the most flexible type of index, which is why people love them. I just like my information to have a built-in level of organisation, even if it means imposing some limitations :-) Hmmm... sounds as if there could be a parallel scheme, with a nice neat hierarchical structure, and drawing its content from the Wiki articles, either by snapshot imports or by simply linking to them. It could be called The uk.d-i-y FAQ. * * *Just needs a volunteer! * Phil *G Lack of volunteers is the prime point imho. We could come up with a scheme, but so far no-one has volunteered to do it. IIRC we only have 2 multiple article contributors so far. Putting a traditional heirarchical structure on the wiki is I think so fraught with issues its hardly worth considering, but I do agree that some means to make it easier to find articles would be a big step forward. I also think there's a very simple solution. Its one I was going to propose earlier, but there's just one detail I hadnt yet figured out. The idea was to move the content in 'Main page' out, renaming it something else, and make the 'Main page' redirect to the contents page, this one: http://www.wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index....ecial:Allpages So when someone clicks on or links to 'Main page', that contents page shows up. Now I'm certainly not going to pretend this is the perfect answer - there's no heirarchy or organisation, but it does seem to answer every other requirement. * Its easily implemented * The page automatically updates itself as new articles appear, no ongoing maintennace work is needed * People have a single introductory point that shows them all the articles on the wiki, and which they can search for keywords if they wish * People tend to click on 'main page,' so its the perfect place to put this introduction to the wiki. And finally bear in mind that altho some would like more structure, reality is there is no such structure to be found anywhere on the wiki, and I'm doubtful that someone will come along and a) create it b) maintain it indefinitely With so few contriobutors I think any solution would have to be easy to implement and maintenance free. This idea is, and it does the job, albeit not as neatly as some might like. The one q I didnt figure out was what article name to call the current content of 'Main page' Regards, NT |
#19
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DIY FAQ & Wiki
On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 17:57:22 -0700 (PDT), in uk.d-i-y
wrote: On Aug 14, 11:03*pm, Phil Addison wrote: On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 22:21:25 +0100, in uk.d-i-y Grunff wrote: Dave Liquorice wrote: Thank you and yes I agree there is nothing in the actual, under the hood, wiki database that links anything to anything else except when it is included in the navigation. This makes a wiki rather powerful and as always with power comes responsibilty to use that power wisely. It certainly makes a wiki flexible, but it also creates a huge amount of extra work, required to achieve any semblance of a hierarchy. Wikis offer the most flexible type of index, which is why people love them. I just like my information to have a built-in level of organisation, even if it means imposing some limitations :-) Hmmm... sounds as if there could be a parallel scheme, with a nice neat hierarchical structure, and drawing its content from the Wiki articles, either by snapshot imports or by simply linking to them. It could be called The uk.d-i-y FAQ. * * *Just needs a volunteer! * Phil *G Lack of volunteers is the prime point imho. We could come up with a scheme, but so far no-one has volunteered to do it. IIRC we only have 2 multiple article contributors so far. Putting a traditional heirarchical structure on the wiki is I think so fraught with issues its hardly worth considering, but I do agree that some means to make it easier to find articles would be a big step forward. Someone taking the trouble to come up with a parallel mechanism as suggested above, or any other hierarchical access scheme, is IMHO vital for the long term success of the project. Without it, the wiki can be in danger of becoming swamped by a mish-mash of random short articles. Nobody has to publicly 'volunteer', but is welcome to try out ideas behind the scenes in the beta area of the FAQ - just contact me; address is valid. I also think there's a very simple solution. Its one I was going to propose earlier, but there's just one detail I hadnt yet figured out. The idea was to move the content in 'Main page' out, renaming it something else, and make the 'Main page' redirect to the contents page, this one: http://www.wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index....ecial:Allpages So when someone clicks on or links to 'Main page', that contents page shows up. That's not what I understand as a Contents Page; it is an alphabetical index, and perversly sorted by rows instead of columns. Nevertheless, just doing that would make the wiki content a lot more accesible to first time visitors, many of whom must be frightened away by the existing entry page. As I said before, the wiki is fine for those searching for a keyword but hopeless for the curious just wondering what sort of stuff is in it. Now I'm certainly not going to pretend this is the perfect answer - there's no heirarchy or organisation, .... which is its key problem! but it does seem to answer every other requirement. * Its easily implemented * The page automatically updates itself as new articles appear, no ongoing maintennace work is needed * People have a single introductory point that shows them all the articles on the wiki, and which they can search for keywords if they wish * People tend to click on 'main page,' so its the perfect place to put this introduction to the wiki. Yes, yes, and yes. Go for it!! And finally bear in mind that altho some would like more structure, reality is there is no such structure to be found anywhere on the wiki, and I'm doubtful that someone will come along You never can tell. and a) create it b) maintain it indefinitely These are two separately do-able tasks. Lets try to be positive, not put off any potential helpers. With so few contriobutors I think any solution would have to be easy to implement and maintenance free. This idea is, and it does the job, albeit not as neatly as some might like. Go for it!! Any improvement in accessibiliity will lead to more readers; Some will turn into contributors, and maybe one of them will tackle a parallel hierarchical access scheme. The one q I didnt figure out was what article name to call the current content of 'Main page' "About this Wiki", or even "Obsolete"? Thanks for your thoughtfull respose. Phil |
#20
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DIY FAQ & Wiki
On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 17:57:22 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
Putting a traditional heirarchical structure on the wiki is I think so fraught with issues its hardly worth considering, but I do agree that some means to make it easier to find articles would be a big step forward. It's not that difficult to add [[Category:Tools]] to the bottom of an article about SDS Drills for example or [[Category:Electrical]] to one about wiring a plug. Then construct a template with all the top level categories in it for display on the "main page" and at the top of each category listing page (these are built automagically and include sub-category listings). Most of the automatic pages aren't really much use like the Allpages or Categories one, the latter because it treats all categories as being at the same level. The idea was to move the content in 'Main page' out, renaming it something else, and make the 'Main page' redirect to the contents page, this one: http://www.wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index....ecial:Allpages No the default "main page" needs to tell the user what the wiki is about and then lead them to indexes and/or search methods. * People tend to click on 'main page,' so its the perfect place to put this introduction to the wiki. But it's not an "introduction" it's just a list of articles. Nothing about why or where those articals have come from. I'm doubtful that someone will come along and a) create it b) maintain it indefinitely The basics appears to be there already, it just needs some sorting out. The 50 odd categories just need something (a template?) to bring them into a more manageable/structred list form for display. The main categories Plumbing, Heating, Electrics, Lighting, Building etc already exist. -- Cheers Dave. |
#21
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DIY FAQ & Wiki
On Aug 15, 12:18*pm, "Dave Liquorice"
wrote: On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 17:57:22 -0700 (PDT), wrote: Putting a traditional heirarchical structure on the wiki is I think so fraught with issues its hardly worth considering, but I do agree that some means to make it easier to find articles would be a big step forward. It's not that difficult to add [[Category:Tools]] to the bottom of an article about SDS Drills for example or [[Category:Electrical]] to one about wiring a plug. Then construct a template with all the top level categories in it for display on the "main page" and at the top of each category listing page (these are built automagically and include sub-category listings). Most of the automatic pages aren't really much use like the Allpages or Categories one, the latter because it treats all categories as being at the same level. The idea was to move the content in 'Main page' out, renaming it something else, and make the 'Main page' redirect to the contents page, this one: http://www.wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index....ecial:Allpages No the default "main page" needs to tell the user what the wiki is about and then lead them to indexes and/or search methods. I think the contents page gets that message across more or less instantly. * People tend to click on 'main page,' so its the perfect place to put this introduction to the wiki. But it's not an "introduction" it's just a list of articles. Nothing about why or where those articals have come from. I'm unsure why you think that imoprtant to a first time visitor. Task number 1 is always for them to be able to read whatever article they want - a list of all the articles does that - as would your list of categories. If I'm new to the wiki, and I've been given a link from uk.diy to a wiki article, I want to read the article. Anything else is just waffle to me at that point - certainly it has its place, but its not what I want to read first, and if an article listed on the front page addresses what the wiki's about I can read it when I want to - probably after I've got the diy job done that I'm halfway through. I'm doubtful that someone will come along and a) create it b) maintain it indefinitely The basics appears to be there already, it just needs some sorting out. The 50 odd categories just need something (a template?) to bring them into a more manageable/structred list form for display. The main categories Plumbing, Heating, Electrics, Lighting, Building etc already exist. No-one is currently doing what you two want, but I daresay it will happen. Hence I propose to make the main page article redirect to the contents page as an improvement-for-now move, and we can await the appearance of a more structured option. NT |
#22
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DIY FAQ & Wiki
On Fri, 15 Aug 2008 05:30:46 -0700 (PDT), in uk.d-i-y
wrote: On Aug 15, 12:18*pm, "Dave Liquorice" wrote: On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 17:57:22 -0700 (PDT), wrote: The idea was to move the content in 'Main page' out, renaming it something else, and make the 'Main page' redirect to the contents page, this one: http://www.wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index....ecial:Allpages No the default "main page" needs to tell the user what the wiki is about and then lead them to indexes and/or search methods. But it's not an "introduction" it's just a list of articles. Nothing about why or where those articals have come from. I'm unsure why you think that imoprtant to a first time visitor. Task number 1 is always for them to be able to read whatever article they want - a list of all the articles does that - as would your list of categories. *some* people go to an information source to look something up; many others go there to learn about the whole subject, or to find out what the subject encompasses. E.g. "I've just bought a house, I want to look into this DIY lark I've heard about". If I'm new to the wiki, and I've been given a link from uk.diy to a wiki article, I want to read the article. Obviously!! Anything else is just waffle to me at that point - certainly it has its place, but its not what I want to read first, and if an article listed on the front page addresses what the wiki's about I can read it when I want to - probably after I've got the diy job done that I'm halfway through. As a specialist contributor, you appear to be seeing it from that POV; step back and think about the needs of the wider readership. The basics appears to be there already, it just needs some sorting out. The 50 odd categories just need something (a template?) to bring them into a more manageable/structred list form for display. The main categories Plumbing, Heating, Electrics, Lighting, Building etc already exist. No-one is currently doing what you two want, but I daresay it will happen. Hence I propose to make the main page article redirect to the contents page as an improvement-for-now move, and we can await the appearance of a more structured option. No, the main page needs to remain as an introduction as Dave L describes, but it needs a much clearer link to the meat. At the moment, the location of the meat is concealed in the last point "5 See Also". To correct this is simple: "Wiki Subject Categories" at the very bottom of the page, needs renaming to read "Contents" and moving near the top of the page, and ""Wiki Contents" needs renaming to read "Index" and putting just beneath Contents. Phil |
#23
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DIY FAQ & Wiki
On Aug 15, 11:07*pm, Phil Addison wrote:
On Fri, 15 Aug 2008 05:30:46 -0700 (PDT), in uk.d-i-y wrote: On Aug 15, 12:18*pm, "Dave Liquorice" wrote: On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 17:57:22 -0700 (PDT), wrote: To correct this is simple: "Wiki Subject Categories" at the very bottom of the page, needs renaming to read "Contents" and moving near the top of the page, and ""Wiki Contents" needs renaming to read "Index" and putting just beneath Contents. Phil Sounds good, just done that. The idea was to move the content in 'Main page' out, renaming it something else, and make the 'Main page' redirect to the contents page, this one: http://www.wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index....ecial:Allpages No the default "main page" needs to tell the user what the wiki is about and then lead them to indexes and/or search methods. But it's not an "introduction" it's just a list of articles. Nothing about why or where those articals have come from. I'm unsure why you think that imoprtant to a first time visitor. Task number 1 is always for them to be able to read whatever article they want - a list of all the articles does that - as would your list of categories. *some* people go to an information source to look something up; many others go there to learn about the whole subject, or to find out what the subject encompasses. E.g. "I've just bought a house, I want to look into this DIY lark I've heard about". of course. And a list of all articles is ideal for that. If its presented as a list of categories people will read some but die of boredom fairly soon. If I'm new to the wiki, and I've been given a link from uk.diy to a wiki article, I want to read the article. Obviously!! Anything else is just waffle to me at that point - certainly it has its place, but its not what I want to read first, and if an article listed on the front page addresses what the wiki's about I can read it when I want to - probably after I've got the diy job done that I'm halfway through. As a specialist contributor, you appear to be seeing it from that POV; step back and think about the needs of the wider readership. I cant agree. Unless I'm mistaken, most people find the wiki by a link in a ukdiy thread, and at that point what they want to read is just that article. Then maybe they get curious, and want to see what else is there. Allpages immediately shows the wide range of stuff the wiki covers, and the amount of info there is. Then there are those that find it by other means, and want a general read up on diy. Again the same applies for allpages. A person can get into the wiki from any page, whether its the present main page, allpages, categories, anywhere. It seems from this thread that diferent approaches suit different learner styles, so lets offer them all, and give them a choice of all of them on the Main Page. Lets point them to all of allpages, categories, and a structured page yet to be written. The basics appears to be there already, it just needs some sorting out. |
#24
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DIY FAQ & Wiki
On Fri, 15 Aug 2008 22:07:01 GMT, Phil Addison wrote:
If I'm new to the wiki, and I've been given a link from uk.diy to a wiki article, I want to read the article. Obviously!! And if the link doesn't take them to that article it is the fault of the person providing the link not the wiki. No, the main page needs to remain as an introduction as Dave L describes, but it needs a much clearer link to the meat. At the moment, the location of the meat is concealed in the last point "5 See Also". Agreed. I don't know the structure of the categories/sub-categories within the UK DIY wiki well enough to know which ones would make sensible choices for the top level ones to be included into a template to display them in a logical manner, rather than the huge single list of the special page. Here is some sample code for a wiki template: p'''All Categories available:'''/p p {|cellspacing="0" cellpadding="3" border="0" |- |[[:Category:Electrical|Electrical]]||Things that bangen and sparken |- |[[:Category:Plumbing|Plumbing]]||Splish, splash, splosh! |- |[[:Category:Building|Building]]||Crash, bang, wallop |- |[[:Category:Tools|Tools]]||Ouch! My fingers |- |[[:Category:Heating|Heating]]||Ah, nice and warm... |} /p This is easy to change and maintain, bear in mind the top level categories aren't going to change much, if at all. Sub-categories could be entered under the relevant main category and made to look like sub-categories with a bit of simple formating, say by using ul.../ul and fontsize tweaking. -- Cheers Dave. |
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DIY FAQ & Wiki
On Aug 16, 12:44*am, Phil Addison wrote:
On Fri, 15 Aug 2008 15:49:28 -0700 (PDT), in uk.d-i-y wrote: On Aug 15, 11:07*pm, Phil Addison wrote: To correct this is simple: "Wiki Subject Categories" at the very bottom of the page, needs renaming to read "Contents" and moving near the top of the page, and ""Wiki Contents" needs renaming to read "Index" and putting just beneath Contents. Phil Sounds good, just done that. Hasn't appeared as yet As a specialist contributor, you appear to be seeing it from that POV; step back and think about the needs of the wider readership. I cant agree. Unless I'm mistaken, most people find the wiki by a link in a ukdiy thread, I think you're mistaken; grunff has said there is a large amount of traffic on it, so I assume that indicates significant hits from search engines. and at that point what they want to read is just that article. Then maybe they get curious, and want to see what else is there. Allpages immediately shows the wide range of stuff the wiki covers, and the amount of info there is. and on the 'against' side, it shows a disorganised mish-mash of titles. Personally it would put me off exploring further, in fact it did - I visited the allpages and categories page several times before I deciding I better take the time to see what is really in there, and still find it painfull navigating it. Then there are those that find it by other means, and want a general read up on diy. Again the same applies for allpages. A person can get into the wiki from any page, whether its the present main page, allpages, categories, anywhere. It seems from this thread that diferent approaches suit different learner styles, so lets offer them all, and give them a choice of all of them on the Main Page. Lets point them to all of allpages, categories, and a structured page yet to be written. Agreed, but please use conventional book terms, Contents and Index, not the obscure wiki terms Allpages/Categories. And retain the intro material on the page. When in a bookshop choosing a book (non-fiction) from amongst several, what order do you look at these - the back cover, the Contents List, the Index? Why do publishers put the index near the back? Is the contents list hierarchical? *why? No, the main page needs to remain as an introduction as Dave L describes, but it needs a much clearer link to the meat. At the moment, the location of the meat is concealed in the last point "5 See Also". fixed hopefully not seen a change yet Phil ok, fixed. What you say just confirms one thing: different people have different learning styles, and we would be best with all 3 approaches in place. NT |
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DIY FAQ & Wiki
On Aug 16, 12:24*am, "Dave Liquorice"
wrote: On Fri, 15 Aug 2008 22:07:01 GMT, Phil Addison wrote: If I'm new to the wiki, and I've been given a link from uk.diy to a wiki article, I want to read the article. Obviously!! And if the link doesn't take them to that article it is the fault of the person providing the link not the wiki. No, the main page needs to remain as an introduction as Dave L describes, but it needs a much clearer link to the meat. At the moment, the location of the meat is concealed in the last point "5 See Also". Agreed. I don't know the structure of the categories/sub-categories within the UK DIY wiki well enough to know which ones would make sensible choices for the top level ones to be included into a template to display them in a logical manner, rather than the huge single list of the special page. Here is some sample code for a wiki template: p'''All Categories available:'''/p p {|cellspacing="0" cellpadding="3" border="0" |- |[[:Category:Electrical|Electrical]]||Things that bangen and sparken |- |[[:Category:Plumbing|Plumbing]]||Splish, splash, splosh! |- |[[:Category:Building|Building]]||Crash, bang, wallop |- |[[:Category:Tools|Tools]]||Ouch! My fingers |- |[[:Category:Heating|Heating]]||Ah, nice and warm... |} /p This is easy to change and maintain, bear in mind the top level categories aren't going to change much, if at all. Sub-categories could be entered under the relevant main category and made to look like sub-categories with a bit of simple formating, say by using ul.../ul and fontsize tweaking. OK, we already have a categories page and an allpages, which I've now renamed 'contents by category' and 'index'. What shall we call this heirarchical access page? NT |
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DIY FAQ & Wiki
On Sat, 16 Aug 2008 08:47:09 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
OK, we already have a categories page and an allpages, which I've now renamed 'contents by category' and 'index'. What shall we call this heirarchical access page? It's not a page but a template to be included in any page. I'd suggest on the somewhere on "main page" and at the top of each main category page. Like a similar template is used on the IBS wiki: http://wiki.ibs.org.uk/faq/index.php?title=Main_Page In the right hand box. http://wiki.ibs.org.uk/faq/index.php...gory:Equipment At the top just below the main title line. Also shows how this fits on a category page when sub-categores exist. If you want to change the list you make the edit in the template and the change is reflected where ever that template is used through out the wiki. The IBS wiki has a few templates for setting up tables so they all have a consistent "look and feel" without to remember the details, just include the relevant template. To include a template use {{template_name}}. -- Cheers Dave. |
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DIY FAQ & Wiki
On Sat, 16 Aug 2008 17:55:01 +0100 (BST), in uk.d-i-y "Dave Liquorice"
wrote: It's not a page but a template to be included in any page. I'd suggest on the somewhere on "main page" and at the top of each main category page. That's better than I hoped for, will make it much more user friendly. Phil |
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DIY FAQ & Wiki
On Aug 17, 1:05*am, Phil Addison wrote:
On Sat, 16 Aug 2008 17:55:01 +0100 (BST), in uk.d-i-y "Dave Liquorice" wrote: It's not a page but a template to be included in any page. I'd suggest on the somewhere on "main page" and at the top of each main category page. That's better than I hoped for, will make it much more user friendly. Phil It sounds great, but for 1 big but. Having looked at the categories we have on the wiki I dont see any way they can be shoehorned into a heirarchical system without a great deal of duplication and including things of questionable relevance. So that leaves 2 options for this heirarchical approach: 1. Keep it simple, but it then leaves half of the articles and (sub)cats out 2. Make it comprehensive, and you get a thing too big to be on anything but its own page. The other option of course is to do both. No reason why not. Maybe you 2 could help with heiraching the present categories, as I looked and couldnt see how to do it. Here's what we have on the wiki today: Access (3 links) Adhesives (10 links) Appliances (21 links) Bad Ideas (13 links) Basics (16 links) Bathrooms (14 links) Batteries (9 links) Building (24 links) Car (1 links) Cleaning (12 links) Clothing (1 links) Computing (7 links) Construction (18 links) Cooling (6 links) Damp (6 links) Decorating (7 links) Domestic Hot Water (18 links) Doors (5 links) Electrical (73 links) Energy Efficiency (26 links) Fault Finding (18 links) Fire (9 links) Fixings (16 links) Floors (15 links) Furniture (8 links) Garbage (3 links) Glazing (8 links) Glossary (3 links) Hard Surfacing (5 links) Heating (34 links) Humour (7 links) Insulation (4 links) Kitchens (10 links) Laundry (4 links) Legal (8 links) Lighting (24 links) Links Pages (53 links) Masonry (1 links) Materials (15 links) Metal (16 links) Mortar (12 links) Noise (10 links) Paint (12 links) Paths (1 links) Period Property (13 links) Pests (3 links) Plastering (4 links) Plastics (16 links) Plumbing (39 links) Projects (13 links) Public domain images (128 links) Repair (7 links) Review (5 links) Roofing (5 links) Safety (12 links) Save Money (12 links) Security (5 links) Sheds (2 links) Shelving Units (2 links) Software (2 links) Solar (5 links) Stone (1 links) Storage (9 links) Substandard (1 links) Supplies (4 links) TV (8 links) Tiling (1 links) Tools (44 links) Wiki (4 links) Windows (8 links) Wood (51 lin Now I can spot some immediate high level ones, such as: Construction or building Wood Decorating Supplies Tools Electrical Storage Roofing Projects Plumbing Heating Glazing Fault finding or repair Electrical Hot water Damp Cleaning Appliances But how would you distribute the other cats as children of the above parent groups? And what would you do with the cats that dont really clearly fit anywhere in particular on a heirarchy? NT |
#32
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DIY FAQ & Wiki
On Sat, 16 Aug 2008 17:55:37 -0700 (PDT), in uk.d-i-y
wrote: On Aug 17, 1:05*am, Phil Addison wrote: On Sat, 16 Aug 2008 17:55:01 +0100 (BST), in uk.d-i-y "Dave Liquorice" wrote: It's not a page but a template to be included in any page. I'd suggest on the somewhere on "main page" and at the top of each main category page. That's better than I hoped for, will make it much more user friendly. Phil It sounds great, but for 1 big but. Having looked at the categories we have on the wiki I dont see any way they can be shoehorned into a heirarchical system without a great deal of duplication and including things of questionable relevance. I just looked too, and its a mess!! 380 odd articles. A good number have been allocated to categories, but hardly in a hierarchical way. There are also a number of redundant/empty or near duplicate pages, eg Thermal Store, Thermal Stores, Thermal store. Also DHW and Domestic Hot Water. I suppose it IS possible to delete the surplus ones? So that leaves 2 options for this heirarchical approach: 1. Keep it simple, but it then leaves half of the articles and (sub)cats out 2. Make it comprehensive, and you get a thing too big to be on anything but its own page. Doesn't matter if the contents list is big. I envisage it will need scrolling down to see it all. I'm hoping sub-sub-categories can be implemented somehow. Dave L, can we nest your templates inside each other? The other option of course is to do both. No reason why not. Maybe you 2 could help with heiraching the present categories, as I looked and couldnt see how to do it. OK, I have spent a couple of hours looking at it. If you look at the doc I referenced previously, and you are MS Word compatible, you can view it in Outline Mode (sorry I should have mentioned that earlier - it makes more sense when you set it to view just the top 2-3 levels). I have copied the all cats list into one doc, and it easy (but tedious) to drag each from there into the correct place in the outline doc, and easy to re-organise the hierarchy as you go. IF nested templates are possible its then a trivial (but tedious) job to convert the word doc hierarchy to a wiki page. If not, I'm not sure what to do, maybe resort to html? Here's what we have on the wiki today: Access (3 links) Adhesives (10 links) Appliances (21 links) Bad Ideas (13 links) Basics (16 links) Bathrooms (14 links) Batteries (9 links) Building (24 links) Car (1 links) Cleaning (12 links) Clothing (1 links) Computing (7 links) Construction (18 links) Cooling (6 links) Damp (6 links) Decorating (7 links) Domestic Hot Water (18 links) Doors (5 links) Electrical (73 links) Energy Efficiency (26 links) Fault Finding (18 links) Fire (9 links) Fixings (16 links) Floors (15 links) Furniture (8 links) Garbage (3 links) Glazing (8 links) Glossary (3 links) Hard Surfacing (5 links) Heating (34 links) Humour (7 links) Insulation (4 links) Kitchens (10 links) Laundry (4 links) Legal (8 links) Lighting (24 links) Links Pages (53 links) Masonry (1 links) Materials (15 links) Metal (16 links) Mortar (12 links) Noise (10 links) Paint (12 links) Paths (1 links) Period Property (13 links) Pests (3 links) Plastering (4 links) Plastics (16 links) Plumbing (39 links) Projects (13 links) Public domain images (128 links) Repair (7 links) Review (5 links) Roofing (5 links) Safety (12 links) Save Money (12 links) Security (5 links) Sheds (2 links) Shelving Units (2 links) Software (2 links) Solar (5 links) Stone (1 links) Storage (9 links) Substandard (1 links) Supplies (4 links) TV (8 links) Tiling (1 links) Tools (44 links) Wiki (4 links) Windows (8 links) Wood (51 lin Now I can spot some immediate high level ones, such as: Construction or building Wood Decorating Supplies Tools Electrical Storage Roofing Projects Plumbing Heating Glazing Fault finding or repair Electrical Hot water Damp Cleaning Appliances My doc starts at an even higher level But how would you distribute the other cats as children of the above parent groups? Hopefully sub-sub-categories. And what would you do with the cats that dont really clearly fit anywhere in particular on a heirarchy? That means your top level hierarchy is inadequate. See my doc http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/beta/FAQ_Pr...tents_List.doc. I'll spend some more time on the 'shoehorning' process - may have something to show tonight, if not in a couple of days. Phil |
#33
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DIY FAQ & Wiki
On Aug 17, 3:55*pm, Phil Addison wrote:
On Sat, 16 Aug 2008 17:55:37 -0700 (PDT), in uk.d-i-y wrote: On Aug 17, 1:05*am, Phil Addison wrote: On Sat, 16 Aug 2008 17:55:01 +0100 (BST), in uk.d-i-y "Dave Liquorice" wrote: It's not a page but a template to be included in any page. I'd suggest on the somewhere on "main page" and at the top of each main category page. That's better than I hoped for, will make it much more user friendly. Phil It sounds great, but for 1 big but. Having looked at the categories we have on the wiki I dont see any way they can be shoehorned into a heirarchical system without a great deal of duplication and including things of questionable relevance. I just looked too, and its a mess!! 380 odd articles. A good number have been allocated to categories, but hardly in a hierarchical way. There are also a number of redundant/empty or near duplicate pages, eg Thermal Store, Thermal Stores, Thermal store. Also DHW and Domestic Hot Water. I suppose it IS possible to delete the surplus ones? So that leaves 2 options for this heirarchical approach: 1. Keep it simple, but it then leaves half of the articles and (sub)cats out 2. Make it comprehensive, and you get a thing too big to be on anything but its own page. Doesn't matter if the contents list is big. I envisage it will need scrolling down to see it all. I'm hoping sub-sub-categories can be implemented somehow. Dave L, can we nest your templates inside each other? The other option of course is to do both. No reason why not. Maybe you 2 could help with heiraching the present categories, as I looked and couldnt see how to do it. OK, I have spent a couple of hours looking at it. If you look at the doc I referenced previously, and you are MS Word compatible, you can view it in Outline Mode (sorry I should have mentioned that earlier - it makes more sense when you set it to view just the top 2-3 levels). I have copied the all cats list into one doc, and it easy (but tedious) to drag each from there into the correct place in the outline doc, and easy to re-organise the hierarchy as you go. IF nested templates are possible its then a trivial (but tedious) job to convert the word doc hierarchy to a wiki page. If not, I'm not sure what to do, maybe resort to html? Here's what we have on the wiki today: Access (3 links) Adhesives (10 links) Appliances (21 links) Bad Ideas (13 links) Basics (16 links) Bathrooms (14 links) Batteries (9 links) Building (24 links) Car (1 links) Cleaning (12 links) Clothing (1 links) Computing (7 links) Construction (18 links) Cooling (6 links) Damp (6 links) Decorating (7 links) Domestic Hot Water (18 links) Doors (5 links) Electrical (73 links) Energy Efficiency (26 links) Fault Finding (18 links) Fire (9 links) Fixings (16 links) Floors (15 links) Furniture (8 links) Garbage (3 links) Glazing (8 links) Glossary (3 links) Hard Surfacing (5 links) Heating (34 links) Humour (7 links) Insulation (4 links) Kitchens (10 links) Laundry (4 links) Legal (8 links) Lighting (24 links) Links Pages (53 links) Masonry (1 links) Materials (15 links) Metal (16 links) Mortar (12 links) Noise (10 links) Paint (12 links) Paths (1 links) Period Property (13 links) Pests (3 links) Plastering (4 links) Plastics (16 links) Plumbing (39 links) Projects (13 links) Public domain images (128 links) Repair (7 links) Review (5 links) Roofing (5 links) Safety (12 links) Save Money (12 links) Security (5 links) Sheds (2 links) Shelving Units (2 links) Software (2 links) Solar (5 links) Stone (1 links) Storage (9 links) Substandard (1 links) Supplies (4 links) TV (8 links) Tiling (1 links) Tools (44 links) Wiki (4 links) Windows (8 links) Wood (51 lin Now I can spot some immediate high level ones, such as: Construction or building Wood Decorating Supplies Tools Electrical Storage Roofing Projects Plumbing Heating Glazing Fault finding or repair Electrical Hot water Damp Cleaning Appliances My doc starts at an even higher level But how would you distribute the other cats as children of the above parent groups? Hopefully sub-sub-categories. And what would you do with the cats that dont really clearly fit anywhere in particular on a heirarchy? That means your top level hierarchy is inadequate. See my dochttp://www.diyfaq.org.uk/beta/FAQ_Prospective_Contents_List.doc.. I'll spend some more time on the 'shoehorning' process - may have something to show tonight, if not in a couple of days. Phil Unfortunately I cant view the .doc for some reason. I think we may be talking at cross purposes here though. I dont see too much difficulty in creating a heirarchical page structure, where I see the problem is in deciding what subcats go where. If you think its easy, go right ahead NT |
#34
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DIY FAQ & Wiki
On Sun, 17 Aug 2008 08:17:24 -0700 (PDT), in uk.d-i-y
wrote: On Aug 17, 3:55*pm, Phil Addison wrote: On Sat, 16 Aug 2008 17:55:37 -0700 (PDT), in uk.d-i-y wrote: See my dochttp://www.diyfaq.org.uk/beta/FAQ_Prospective_Contents_List.doc. I'll spend some more time on the 'shoehorning' process - may have something to show tonight, if not in a couple of days. Unfortunately I cant view the .doc for some reason. I think we may be talking at cross purposes here though. I dont see too much difficulty in creating a heirarchical page structure, where I see the problem is in deciding what subcats go where. If you think its easy, go right ahead There is also a pdf on the site at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/beta/FAQ_Pr...tents_List.pdf but it is fixed at the fully expanded hierarchy so not so convenient. I'll email you a copy of the Word doc, and also the one I'm working on if you give me a valid address - send it to the addy above. I'm using Word 2003 but it should open in earlier ones, in fact I think the one on the site was Word 97. Phil |
#35
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DIY FAQ & Wiki
On Sun, 17 Aug 2008 14:55:11 GMT, Phil Addison wrote:
I just looked too, and its a mess!! 380 odd articles. A good number have been allocated to categories, but hardly in a hierarchical way. There are also a number of redundant/empty or near duplicate pages, eg Thermal Store, Thermal Stores, Thermal store. Also DHW and Domestic Hot Water. Yerk I haven't looked that closely, those pages need merging and the redundant ones deleting, yes pages can be deleted but perhaps not a normal user access level. Dave L, can we nest your templates inside each other? I think a template can call another, I've not tried. However I'd sort of try an avoid that as it could easily make maintenance difficult. Lets start with just the top level categories and if it's felt that sub-categories would be useful they can be added later. Remember any category pages shows the sub-categories of that page. Hopefully sub-sub-categories. I'm also wary of getting to deep with levels. A sort of rule of thumb of when a sub-category might be required would be if the article list section of a category page could not be shown completely. People don't scroll pages unless they really have to. See my doc http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/beta/FAQ_Pr...tents_List.doc. I'll spend some more time on the 'shoehorning' process - may have something to show tonight, if not in a couple of days. I'm happy to take a hierachy and produce a wiki template from it. Let me know when it has stabilised. B-) -- Cheers Dave. |
#36
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DIY FAQ & Wiki
On Sun, 17 Aug 2008 15:44:16 GMT, Phil Addison wrote:
There is also a pdf on the site at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/beta/FAQ_Pr...tents_List.pdf but it is fixed at the fully expanded hierarchy so not so convenient. Does the fully expanded one actually include real article titles? It looks as if it does. I can't really imagine that there are a dozen or so pages relating to Central Heating Design, Installation, Setting up Pipework Copper Small Bore (15, 22, 28mm). I should think the category levels can stop at Pipework. -- Cheers Dave. |
#37
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DIY FAQ & Wiki
On Aug 17, 7:31*pm, "Dave Liquorice"
wrote: On Sun, 17 Aug 2008 14:55:11 GMT, Phil Addison wrote: I just looked too, and its a mess!! 380 odd articles. A good number have been allocated to categories, but hardly in a hierarchical way. There are also a number of redundant/empty or near duplicate pages, eg Thermal Store, Thermal Stores, Thermal store. Also DHW and Domestic Hot Water. Yerk I haven't looked that closely, those pages need merging and the redundant ones deleting, yes pages can be deleted but perhaps not a normal user access level. Dave L, can we nest your templates inside each other? I think a template can call another, I've not tried. However I'd sort of try an avoid that as it could easily make maintenance difficult. Lets start with just the top level categories and if it's felt that sub-categories would be useful they can be added later. Remember any category pages shows the sub-categories of that page. Hopefully sub-sub-categories. I'm also wary of getting to deep with levels. A sort of rule of thumb of when a sub-category might be required would be if the article list section of a category page could not be shown completely. People don't scroll pages unless they really have to. See my doc http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/beta/FAQ_Pr...tents_List.doc. I'll spend some more time on the 'shoehorning' process - may have something to show tonight, if not in a couple of days. I'm happy to take a hierachy and produce a wiki template from it. Let me know when it has stabilised. *B-) Nice one. Phil's pdf looks like a great start. Personally I'd like to limit the depth of the levels, and probably not list any individual articles but end up directing the user to the applicable wiki category. More or less everything on that list has a wiki category, and new cats can always be created. Phil I can dl your doc file no prob, but opening it things go wrong. If you wanted to post it in plain text I'd be happy to work on it, see if we can move toward the finished article. NT |
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#39
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DIY FAQ & Wiki
On Sun, 17 Aug 2008 19:31:20 +0100 (BST), in uk.d-i-y "Dave Liquorice"
wrote: On Sun, 17 Aug 2008 14:55:11 GMT, Phil Addison wrote: I just looked too, and its a mess!! 380 odd articles. A good number have been allocated to categories, but hardly in a hierarchical way. There are also a number of redundant/empty or near duplicate pages, eg Thermal Store, Thermal Stores, Thermal store. Also DHW and Domestic Hot Water. Yerk I haven't looked that closely, those pages need merging and the redundant ones deleting, yes pages can be deleted but perhaps not a normal user access level. For now, i'll just mark those as needing to be sorted out. Dave L, can we nest your templates inside each other? I think a template can call another, I've not tried. However I'd sort of try an avoid that as it could easily make maintenance difficult. Lets start with just the top level categories and if it's felt that sub-categories would be useful they can be added later. Remember any category pages shows the sub-categories of that page. I don't quite see what your getting at, the whole idea of making it a hierarchical structure is to have things nested. I can't see how putting one template call inside another will create a huge problem, but if it does the same thing can be done in html, in fact that may be easier with an html savvy editor to make it clear whats within what. Hopefully sub-sub-categories. I'm also wary of getting to deep with levels. A sort of rule of thumb of when a sub-category might be required would be if the article list section of a category page could not be shown completely. People don't scroll pages unless they really have to. See response to your other post. I agree we don't want text for any level sprawling over several screens. OTOH we don't want to artificially sub-diivide a chapter to limit its content to 1 screen. A good hierarchy would balance those points. See my doc http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/beta/FAQ_Pr...tents_List.doc. I'll spend some more time on the 'shoehorning' process - may have something to show tonight, if not in a couple of days. I'm happy to take a hierachy and produce a wiki template from it. Let me know when it has stabilised. B-) Great, thanks, will do. Phil |
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