WARNING: THIS ONE'S L O N G

Thanks to the rapid development of technology, specifically computer
hardware and software, I'm forced to (kicking and screaming) "upgrade"
both my hardware AND software, in order to maintain three web sites
which I intentionally built to be as simple, and therefore compatible
with even 10 year old computers and web browsers, as possible.

Now I'll grant you that the hardware upgrade was a no brainer - an order
of maginitude or more improvement in power and speed with a
corresponding size reduction relative to my previous computer. Oh - and
the price is about 75 percent of the cost of my previous computer - not
even adjusting for inflation.

The software, on the other hand, is where the nightmares begin.

Let's begin with the Operating System - and from a user's perspective,
the far more important User Interface. Seems that if you skip a few
"upgrades" to the OS - and it's User Interface - the transition from
version to version suddenly becomes significant. The "Look and Feel"
can change from familiar with a few changes to adapt to, to HUH!? The
Learning Curve slope doesn't quite go vertical, but the increased slope
one faces can seem as though a vigorous cardio-vascular work out will be
required.

But that's minor compared to the fun and games of "upgrading" software
I've been using since version 1.0 (ok so some of the stuff I use I
started with version 3.0 - though I still have Mosaic, which was
Netscape version 0.1).

So I need to upgrade a simple CAD/"paint" application from the one I've
been using since 1989 - it's LAST update was 1993. That company, Aldus,
was bought out by Adobe and the product was shelved and therefore no
longer available. Still haven't found the NEW product that'll do what I
"could" do with the OLD product, but I've found a few that sort of MIGHT
do the job.

And I need an image processing application that does what PhotoShop
does. And since I've been upgrading Adobe PhotoShop from version 3.0 to
version 7.0, and since the NEWEST version of PhotoShop is actually V
9.0, though, just to muddy the waters, Adobe switched to calling it
Adobe PhotoShop CS3 (apparently the CS does not stand for Chicken ****,
but Creative Suite, which implies more than one "room" / graphics
application - but in fact is only ONE application - the application
"formerly known as" PhotoShop. Are you noticing how muddied the waters
have become?). SO - there is no "upgrade" available. If I want The
Real PhotoShop, the one I'm familiar with, I have to pay the Full List
Price someone who hasn't been using PhotoShop, and upgrading for the
last 10+ years must pay. So much for the value of "customer loyalty".

BUT - for ONLY $299, I CAN get PhotoShop-Lite. I'm hoping "Lite" as
I've come to know it from other products doesn't mean "Won't Do What You
Have Been Doing - BUT - It's Low In Saturated Fats and Carbohydrates -
AND - Good For Your Heart").

Now the third leg of my Triad is a website building and maintaining
application. Because I was a loyal Adobe PhotoShop customer, I of
course bought Adobe GoLive and bought the intervening "upgrades". So I
WAS intending to get the Newest Upgrade that IS compatible with my NEW
computer's NEW Operating System.

SURPRISE! Adobe discontinued GoLive.

BUT - just as they did earlier with Aldus, they bought the competition -
and this time saw that their product (MacroMedia's Dreamweaver) was
BETTER than GoLive so they kept it and IT is compatible with my New
Computer's Operating System! Oh Joy! and another
AH SH*T! Here comes another Learning Curve and a month or more just to
get back to what I already CAN do on my Old Computer. The plus side is
that it only cost me another $200 and not $599.99.

Now here's where the Globalization thing comes in.

I live in Silcon Valley - the heart of technology and the headquarters
for both Apple, Intel, AMD - and Adobe Systems and a TON of other
"hi-tech" companies. Surely the software I need is available anywhere
computers and software are sold - right?

WRONG!

But I live about 5 miles from Adobe Systems World Headquarters. Surely
I can just drive over there, hand them my debit card, get my software
and come home and start climbing The Learning Curve.

WRONG!

OK - so why not just go to Adobe's website, get a phone number and phone
in my order? Simple right?

WRONG!

IF you have the latest and greatest version of the latest and greatest
web browsers it's probably easy as can be. BUT - IF YOU DON'T - well
their site probably is wonderful and easy to navigate - but not with the
web browsers I HAVE.

So I "retroed" and got out the Yellow Pages to find Adobe's phone
number. A half an hour of "If you'd like to _____, please press ONE -
or say ONE - now" phone tree climbing and I EVENTUALLY get to a human
being - in Bremerton Washington. He patiently explained - that I was
SCREWED. However, they had a Special Deal for previous owners of GoLive
which meant I could get the GoLive successor DreamWeaver - for ONLY
$199.99! PhotoShop on the other hand would run me $699.99 since I only
had version 7.0 and not version 8.0. HOWEVER, they did have a product
called LightRoom 1 - for ONLY $299.99!

Now if you've been playing with computers for very long, you know that
any Version 1.0 of ANYTHING usually means you're getting what should be
called Beta - as in "we think this will work - and we need YOU, as a
Beta Tester, to tell US what's wrong with this thing - and maybe even
suggest a solution.". Bells and Whistles and Klaxtons are going off in
my head and a little voice is SHOUTING - DON'T DO IT!

But hey - he told me I was screwed early on in our conversation.

So I Bite The Bullet, give him my debit card number and place an order -
which the guy in Bremerton - that's Washington State - tells me might be
delivered by Friday -4 days later - and he sends me an e-mail confirming
my order. Of course the e-mail is actually an Attachment - a PDF
version of my confirmation. IT doesn't contain a Fed Ex Tracking Number
though.

Friday I check the mail. Nothing, zip, nada. And Saturday again,
nothing, zip nada.

This morning I consider taking a Valium before picking up the phone but
foolishly didn't.

I dial The Number and get "Welcome to Adobe Systems - and the equivalent
of my Family Tree list of Phone Tree options. When I hear one that
sounds like it might work I press that number. Two chirps, a beep and a
click later - I've got Muzak and eventually - a dial tone!

I hit the Redial Button, listen to "Welcome to Adobe Systems" - and I
press "1", hoping to eventually get to a human being. Two chirps, a beep
and a click later - I've got Muzak and eventually - a dial tone!

OK - let's try What's Behind Door Number Two!

Two chirps, a beep and a click later - I've got Muzak and eventually - a
dial tone!

How about What's Behind Door Number Four! (I already knew what was
behind Door Number Three).

Two chirps, a beep and a click later - I've got - a human being!
Hu-Phreakin-Ray! BOB listens to my saga and then says - "I don't know
why someone would create the expectation you'd get your product by
Friday - we FedEX "5 to 7 BUSINESS DAYS" (read Slow Boat To China) -
unless the customer wants Two Day Delivery - which is significantly more
money than "5 to 7 BUSINESS Day". Could you please give me your Account
Number, Order Number, Date of Order (your paternal grandmother's
birthdate, maiden name and color of eyes) - and I'll get a FedEx
Tracking Number for you. I open the PDF file with the info I got from
Adobe when I ordered the "products" - but only after closing one of the
applications I was working in (I have four applications open when I'm
working on one of my websites - two if which are Adobe "products").

"I'm gonna put you on hold - for just a second - while I get you your
FedEx Tracking Number".

Two chirps, a beep and a click later - I've got Muzak - again!

Five minutes later the Muzak stops - there's a moment of silence - then
- a DIAL TONE!

Where the hell is the VALIUM!?

Son- of-a-BITH! - I'm out of VALIUM!

I resort to breathing deeply - in through the nose - out through pursed
lips while I mentally do my OMMMMMM thing trying desperately to get to
My Happy Place. I would've gone out to the shop and gotten In The Zone
- but anger and frustration should never be mixed with power tools and
sharp spinning carbide.

When the knot in my stomach began to loosen, and I'd restored the top of
my skull to its proper place - Once More Into The Breech (or is it
breach?).

When I get to Adobe's Phone Tree I wait semi-patiently for them to get
to "please press FOUR.".

I press the "4" button on my portable touchtone phone and cross my
fingers, while trying to unlock my clenched teeth.

Two chirps, a beep and a click later - I've got Muzak - again!
Thankfully it wasn't one of Barry Manilow's Greatest Hits.

And then - a voice - a human voice! I almost shouted with joy.

Then I tried to understand the language the voice was speaking.

I was listening to a guy - in INDIA! - Mumbai (I think that's what the
city formerly known as Bombay is now called)! I was to discover. We
both agreed to speak VERY SLOWLY and eventually this kind and patient
soul was prepared to give me the FedEX Tracking Number and walk me
through going to the FedEx.com site to find the status of my order.
After I asked that he just give me the phreakin' FedEx Tracking Number
he finally relented and gave it to me. I thanked him very much and
asked to speak to his supervisor.

Two chirps, a beep and a click later - I've got a pleasant sounding lady
- who asked for my name, home address and e-mail address - before she
could answer ANY questions - or hear anything else I wanted to say to
her.

There HAS TO BE some VALIUM around here somewhere! Where's my BONG?

"If you'd like to e-mail your Customer Feed Back (apparently nobody has
a Complaint Department anymore) please go to www.adobe.com ...

I jump in RIGHT THERE. I've tried getting to Adobe's website and I
CAN'T
do anything there - with EITHER of my web browsers - which is WHY I
CALLED YOU FOLKS!

"Well did YOU try _________?"

Lady - GIVE ME A REAL WORLD STREET, CITY, STATE AND ZIP CODE ADDRESS!
AND IN THE NAME OF ALL THAT'S HOLY - D O N O T PUT ME ON HOLD!

(puff - toke - puff - blow smoke rings for their calming effect)

Wisely, she gave me the mailing address - which is ONE zip code away
from MY zip code.

Having the FedEx Tracking Number I find that the order I placed with a
guy in Bremerton Washington before Noon on Tuesday May 27th was prepared
for sending to FedEX at 12:47 pm on May 28th - from Kennesaw, GEORGIA!
It arrived at the FedEx location - in GEORGIA a bit over 7 hours later,
but didn't leave there 'til 6:14 AM the next day - May 29th, arriving in
Salt Lake City - UTAH the next afternoon, May 30th. I was told to
expect delivery of my "products" on Wednesady - which will be June 4th.

Now I've ordered a 125 pound electric potters wheel and gotten it in TWO
days. And my son's company - with HQ in FRANCE - can put an expensive
road bicycle on my doorstep in a day, two days tops. But TWO CDs - from
a company with its World Headquarters "just up the road"?

Nitro glycerin tablets - where the hell did I put them . . .

"I'm going to wake up now because this nightmare has gone on way to long
and has gotten too insane."

Two chirps, a beep and a click -THUD -----------------------------

charlieb wrote in :

WARNING: THIS ONE'S L O N G

Aldus Intellidraw was fabulous, if that's the Aldus product you
refer to.

I'd stick with the Adobe products only if compatibility with
other organizations is your priority (e.g., sending files to a
printer.)


You need a good friend with experience in open source products.
They lag commercial products in features and polish. But since
your learning curve will be so large, I'd suggest you'll have
no worse a time in the end.

The suggestion of a friend: you could benefit from experience in
selecting and getting started with them.

Send the CDs back and go make some new friends.

charlieb wrote:
....
The software, on the other hand, is where the nightmares begin.
....

I suppose you tried the recourse of trying to install current versions
you're used to on the new boxen?

Other than the new broswer (I would recommend Mozilla/Thunderbird) if
they were doing the job before, I'd try that route firstest.

--

charlieb wrote:
WARNING: THIS ONE'S L O N G

Thanks to the rapid development of technology, specifically computer
hardware and software, I'm forced to (kicking and screaming)
"upgrade"
both my hardware AND software, in order to maintain three web sites
which I intentionally built to be as simple, and therefore
compatible
with even 10 year old computers and web browsers, as possible.

Now I'll grant you that the hardware upgrade was a no brainer - an
order of maginitude or more improvement in power and speed with a
corresponding size reduction relative to my previous computer. Oh -
and the price is about 75 percent of the cost of my previous
computer
- not even adjusting for inflation.

The software, on the other hand, is where the nightmares begin.

Let's begin with the Operating System - and from a user's
perspective,
the far more important User Interface. Seems that if you skip a few
"upgrades" to the OS - and it's User Interface - the transition from
version to version suddenly becomes significant. The "Look and
Feel"
can change from familiar with a few changes to adapt to, to HUH!?
The Learning Curve slope doesn't quite go vertical, but the
increased
slope one faces can seem as though a vigorous cardio-vascular work
out will be required.

But that's minor compared to the fun and games of "upgrading"
software
I've been using since version 1.0 (ok so some of the stuff I use I
started with version 3.0 - though I still have Mosaic, which was
Netscape version 0.1).

So I need to upgrade a simple CAD/"paint" application from the one
I've been using since 1989 - it's LAST update was 1993. That
company, Aldus, was bought out by Adobe and the product was shelved
and therefore no longer available. Still haven't found the NEW
product that'll do what I "could" do with the OLD product, but I've
found a few that sort of MIGHT do the job.

And I need an image processing application that does what PhotoShop
does. And since I've been upgrading Adobe PhotoShop from version
3.0
to version 7.0, and since the NEWEST version of PhotoShop is
actually
V
9.0, though, just to muddy the waters, Adobe switched to calling it
Adobe PhotoShop CS3 (apparently the CS does not stand for Chicken
****, but Creative Suite, which implies more than one "room" /
graphics application - but in fact is only ONE application - the
application "formerly known as" PhotoShop. Are you noticing how
muddied the waters have become?). SO - there is no "upgrade"
available. If I want The Real PhotoShop, the one I'm familiar with,
I have to pay the Full List Price someone who hasn't been using
PhotoShop, and upgrading for the last 10+ years must pay. So much
for the value of "customer loyalty".

BUT - for ONLY $299, I CAN get PhotoShop-Lite. I'm hoping "Lite" as
I've come to know it from other products doesn't mean "Won't Do What
You Have Been Doing - BUT - It's Low In Saturated Fats and
Carbohydrates - AND - Good For Your Heart").

Now the third leg of my Triad is a website building and maintaining
application. Because I was a loyal Adobe PhotoShop customer, I of
course bought Adobe GoLive and bought the intervening "upgrades".
So
I WAS intending to get the Newest Upgrade that IS compatible with my
NEW computer's NEW Operating System.

SURPRISE! Adobe discontinued GoLive.

BUT - just as they did earlier with Aldus, they bought the
competition - and this time saw that their product (MacroMedia's
Dreamweaver) was BETTER than GoLive so they kept it and IT is
compatible with my New Computer's Operating System! Oh Joy! and
another
AH SH*T! Here comes another Learning Curve and a month or more just
to get back to what I already CAN do on my Old Computer. The plus
side is that it only cost me another $200 and not $599.99.

Now here's where the Globalization thing comes in.

I live in Silcon Valley - the heart of technology and the
headquarters
for both Apple, Intel, AMD - and Adobe Systems and a TON of other
"hi-tech" companies. Surely the software I need is available
anywhere
computers and software are sold - right?

WRONG!

But I live about 5 miles from Adobe Systems World Headquarters.
Surely I can just drive over there, hand them my debit card, get my
software and come home and start climbing The Learning Curve.

WRONG!

OK - so why not just go to Adobe's website, get a phone number and
phone in my order? Simple right?

WRONG!

IF you have the latest and greatest version of the latest and
greatest
web browsers it's probably easy as can be. BUT - IF YOU DON'T -
well
their site probably is wonderful and easy to navigate - but not with
the web browsers I HAVE.

So I "retroed" and got out the Yellow Pages to find Adobe's phone
number. A half an hour of "If you'd like to _____, please press
ONE -
or say ONE - now" phone tree climbing and I EVENTUALLY get to a
human
being - in Bremerton Washington. He patiently explained - that I
was
SCREWED. However, they had a Special Deal for previous owners of
GoLive which meant I could get the GoLive successor DreamWeaver -
for
ONLY $199.99! PhotoShop on the other hand would run me $699.99
since
I only had version 7.0 and not version 8.0. HOWEVER, they did have
a
product called LightRoom 1 - for ONLY $299.99!

Now if you've been playing with computers for very long, you know
that
any Version 1.0 of ANYTHING usually means you're getting what should
be called Beta - as in "we think this will work - and we need YOU,
as
a Beta Tester, to tell US what's wrong with this thing - and maybe
even suggest a solution.". Bells and Whistles and Klaxtons are
going
off in my head and a little voice is SHOUTING - DON'T DO IT!

But hey - he told me I was screwed early on in our conversation.

So I Bite The Bullet, give him my debit card number and place an
order - which the guy in Bremerton - that's Washington State - tells
me might be delivered by Friday -4 days later - and he sends me an
e-mail confirming my order. Of course the e-mail is actually an
Attachment - a PDF version of my confirmation. IT doesn't contain a
Fed Ex Tracking Number though.

Friday I check the mail. Nothing, zip, nada. And Saturday again,
nothing, zip nada.

This morning I consider taking a Valium before picking up the phone
but foolishly didn't.

I dial The Number and get "Welcome to Adobe Systems - and the
equivalent of my Family Tree list of Phone Tree options. When I
hear
one that sounds like it might work I press that number. Two chirps,
a beep and a click later - I've got Muzak and eventually - a dial
tone!

I hit the Redial Button, listen to "Welcome to Adobe Systems" - and
I
press "1", hoping to eventually get to a human being. Two chirps, a
beep and a click later - I've got Muzak and eventually - a dial
tone!

OK - let's try What's Behind Door Number Two!

Two chirps, a beep and a click later - I've got Muzak and eventually
- a dial tone!

How about What's Behind Door Number Four! (I already knew what was
behind Door Number Three).

Two chirps, a beep and a click later - I've got - a human being!
Hu-Phreakin-Ray! BOB listens to my saga and then says - "I don't
know
why someone would create the expectation you'd get your product by
Friday - we FedEX "5 to 7 BUSINESS DAYS" (read Slow Boat To China) -
unless the customer wants Two Day Delivery - which is significantly
more money than "5 to 7 BUSINESS Day". Could you please give me
your
Account Number, Order Number, Date of Order (your paternal
grandmother's birthdate, maiden name and color of eyes) - and I'll
get a FedEx Tracking Number for you. I open the PDF file with the
info I got from Adobe when I ordered the "products" - but only after
closing one of the applications I was working in (I have four
applications open when I'm working on one of my websites - two if
which are Adobe "products").

"I'm gonna put you on hold - for just a second - while I get you
your
FedEx Tracking Number".

Two chirps, a beep and a click later - I've got Muzak - again!

Five minutes later the Muzak stops - there's a moment of silence -
then - a DIAL TONE!

Where the hell is the VALIUM!?

Son- of-a-BITH! - I'm out of VALIUM!

I resort to breathing deeply - in through the nose - out through
pursed lips while I mentally do my OMMMMMM thing trying desperately
to get to My Happy Place. I would've gone out to the shop and
gotten
In The Zone - but anger and frustration should never be mixed with
power tools and sharp spinning carbide.

When the knot in my stomach began to loosen, and I'd restored the
top
of my skull to its proper place - Once More Into The Breech (or is
it
breach?).

When I get to Adobe's Phone Tree I wait semi-patiently for them to
get
to "please press FOUR.".

I press the "4" button on my portable touchtone phone and cross my
fingers, while trying to unlock my clenched teeth.

Two chirps, a beep and a click later - I've got Muzak - again!
Thankfully it wasn't one of Barry Manilow's Greatest Hits.

And then - a voice - a human voice! I almost shouted with joy.

Then I tried to understand the language the voice was speaking.

I was listening to a guy - in INDIA! - Mumbai (I think that's what
the
city formerly known as Bombay is now called)! I was to discover. We
both agreed to speak VERY SLOWLY and eventually this kind and
patient
soul was prepared to give me the FedEX Tracking Number and walk me
through going to the FedEx.com site to find the status of my order.
After I asked that he just give me the phreakin' FedEx Tracking
Number
he finally relented and gave it to me. I thanked him very much and
asked to speak to his supervisor.

Two chirps, a beep and a click later - I've got a pleasant sounding
lady - who asked for my name, home address and e-mail address -
before she could answer ANY questions - or hear anything else I
wanted to say to her.

There HAS TO BE some VALIUM around here somewhere! Where's my BONG?

"If you'd like to e-mail your Customer Feed Back (apparently nobody
has a Complaint Department anymore) please go to www.adobe.com ...

I jump in RIGHT THERE. I've tried getting to Adobe's website and I
CAN'T
do anything there - with EITHER of my web browsers - which is WHY I
CALLED YOU FOLKS!

"Well did YOU try _________?"

Lady - GIVE ME A REAL WORLD STREET, CITY, STATE AND ZIP CODE
ADDRESS!
AND IN THE NAME OF ALL THAT'S HOLY - D O N O T PUT ME ON HOLD!

(puff - toke - puff - blow smoke rings for their calming effect)

Wisely, she gave me the mailing address - which is ONE zip code away
from MY zip code.

Having the FedEx Tracking Number I find that the order I placed with
a
guy in Bremerton Washington before Noon on Tuesday May 27th was
prepared for sending to FedEX at 12:47 pm on May 28th - from
Kennesaw, GEORGIA! It arrived at the FedEx location - in GEORGIA a
bit over 7 hours later, but didn't leave there 'til 6:14 AM the next
day - May 29th, arriving in Salt Lake City - UTAH the next
afternoon,
May 30th. I was told to expect delivery of my "products" on
Wednesady - which will be June 4th.

Now I've ordered a 125 pound electric potters wheel and gotten it in
TWO days. And my son's company - with HQ in FRANCE - can put an
expensive road bicycle on my doorstep in a day, two days tops. But
TWO CDs - from a company with its World Headquarters "just up the
road"?

Nitro glycerin tablets - where the hell did I put them . . .

"I'm going to wake up now because this nightmare has gone on way to
long and has gotten too insane."

Two chirps, a beep and a click -THUD -----------------------------

Did you say that you have Photoshop 7.0? If so, whoever at Adobe told
you you couldn't upgrade it lied. It says right on the order page
that you can upgrade from 7.0, CS, or CS2 for $199.00. Further, if
you go through the Web site you can download it instead of having to
pay shipping and wait for FedEx.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

"charlieb" wrote in message
"I'm going to wake up now because this nightmare has gone on way to long
and has gotten too insane."

Aaaahhh! Like the rest of us, you're an old fart with too much time on your
hands. Suggest you give up the computer toys, open a beer and reminisce
about the good old days when the closest thing to a computer was a 120v,
fifteen button calculator and the miniskirt was at the height of popularity.

"charlieb" ranted and raved

snip a wonderful rant

Charlie, I hear ya. I go through stuff like this on a semi regular basis.

Just last week I had to do an upgrade for my AVG antivirus software and
they hid it from me on the website. It took me three hours to find it and
install it on two comnputers. They wanted me to upgrade to a product that
was very poorly reviewed. But the free product worked just fine and it was
just what I wanted. SO THEY HID IT! My poor wife was completely bewildered
by their lies and bull****. I knew what was happening. I just didn't think
it would be so complicated. Boy, was I wrong.

Hope ya feel better Charlie. Sometimes when you rant and rave, I feel
better. Thank you.

"Lee Michaels" wrote in
:


Charlie, I hear ya. I go through stuff like this on a semi regular
basis.

Just last week I had to do an upgrade for my AVG antivirus software
and they hid it from me on the website. It took me three hours to
find it and install it on two comnputers. They wanted me to upgrade
to a product that was very poorly reviewed. But the free product
worked just fine and it was just what I wanted. SO THEY HID IT! My
poor wife was completely bewildered by their lies and bull****. I
knew what was happening. I just didn't think it would be so
complicated. Boy, was I wrong.

Hope ya feel better Charlie. Sometimes when you rant and rave, I feel
better. Thank you.


See also: Real Networks, Real Player.

Puckdropper
--
If you're quiet, your teeth never touch your ankles.

To email me directly, send a message to puckdropper (at) fastmail.fm

In article ,
says...

[snippage]

Oh gods, yessss. The corporate juggernauts. Mission: Buy up any
small inventive companies that do a better job with the spare
change and shut them down. Then make our customers Eat Crap.

Symantec has gone down that road,
Adobe has gone down that road,
(and of course Mickeysoft er, sorry, Microsoft.)
There was something on ZDnet recently about the 10 most
annoying bits of software, and guess who was very high on the
list? (add Real Player to the above)

My teleco no longer has humans answering the phone when you
want to talk to a business manager (to buy another service, or
to complain about a service or get help sorting a question
about your bill - whatever). The damn computer they put there
has everybody reaching for the Librium. Oh, that's no longer
available either. LOL, an elderly fellow in the valley has come
up with an ingenious scheme: he just talks gibberish until that
computer decides that it's "voice recognition" isn't, and
switches him through to a human. Apparently that works :-P

And those damn voip lines to India & the Phillipines, oh, yeah,
right. Ordering a Dell monitor was relatively easy, although it
took two calls to get a line quality good enough for both of us
to be able to understand the other. But trying to get an RMA to
return the freaking (faulty) thing - I had to be put through to
another person 5 times I think, just jumping through their
convoluted management flowchart hoops. OMFG. Took me nearly two
hours. Well, at least I got all my money back (yes, I didn't
want to run the risk of having to do that all over)! On the
strength of that experience alone, this will be the last time I
ever buy anything off them. Foot, meet bullet, bullet, meet
foot!

Sometimes I get the impression that some of the people in
management these days graduated from Pratchett's Guild of
Clowns. Thank you Dr. Whiteface. Thank you.

-P.

=========================================
firstname dot lastname at gmail fullstop com

Well it seems as though my mini-Saga of The Absurd served three
purposes

1. I now can see the warped humor (humour - for the Brits)
in this insane situation
2. Got a few folks feeling much better, or at least not as bad,
about their ordeal
3. learned about Open Source options which I will look into.

I'm on a Mac and because ALL the new Macs are Duo Core CPUs
and OS 10.5 aka Leopard is now UNIX behind the Apple GUI,
earlier Mac applications CANNOT run on the new machine and
latest OS. Apple earlier had a "Classic Mode" which allowed
new machines and OS to emulate the "classic" systems. Alas,
they've decided to go with a Clean Break - No Looking Back
approach. I'm hoping that at some point someone will come
out with an "old system" emulator that'll let me continue to
cling to applications I know like the back of my hand and can
get it to do things I'm sure the original developer hadn't even
thought of.

Oh - the basic easy to use CAD application is SuperPaint 3.0.

As for downloading software - I DO NOT provide my debit card
number over the internet - period. So far I haven't found a
way to pay for the software over the phone - to a known
phone number I can verify via a net search - and get a code
to "unlock" downloaded software.

Anyway - thanks for the suggestions and commiseration.
NOW I'm calm enough to go play with wood.

charlie b

On Mon, 02 Jun 2008 14:27:17 -0500, dpb wrote:

charlieb wrote:
...
The software, on the other hand, is where the nightmares begin.
...

I suppose you tried the recourse of trying to install current versions
you're used to on the new boxen?

Other than the new broswer (I would recommend Mozilla/Thunderbird) if
they were doing the job before, I'd try that route firstest.

Perhaps you mean Mozilla/Firefox. Thunderbird is an email program and
newsreader.

"Peter Huebner" wrote:

My teleco no longer has humans answering the phone when you
want to talk to a business manager (to buy another service, or
to complain about a service or get help sorting a question
about your bill - whatever). The damn computer they put there
has everybody reaching for the Librium.

Magic word "AGENT"!!!

No matter what course the puter takes, YELL, "AGENT".

Be amazed how quick a real people answers.

Lew

charlieb wrote in
:

*snip*


I'm on a Mac and because ALL the new Macs are Duo Core CPUs
and OS 10.5 aka Leopard is now UNIX behind the Apple GUI,
earlier Mac applications CANNOT run on the new machine and
latest OS. Apple earlier had a "Classic Mode" which allowed
new machines and OS to emulate the "classic" systems. Alas,
they've decided to go with a Clean Break - No Looking Back
approach. I'm hoping that at some point someone will come
out with an "old system" emulator that'll let me continue to
cling to applications I know like the back of my hand and can
get it to do things I'm sure the original developer hadn't even
thought of.


*snip*


charlie b

Microsoft has it right with all they do for backwards compatibility. I
can still run my old programs 10 years later, with no emulator or
simulator... and if your new program doesn't use any new features, I can
run it on older versions of Windows.

You might want to do a search for "Mac emulator" and see if you can get
some free emulation software. It's out there for the Windows platform,
but I'm not sure about Mac.

Puckdropper
--
If you're quiet, your teeth never touch your ankles.

To email me directly, send a message to puckdropper (at) fastmail.fm

charlieb wrote:
Well it seems as though my mini-Saga of The Absurd served three
purposes

1. I now can see the warped humor (humour - for the Brits)
in this insane situation
2. Got a few folks feeling much better, or at least not as bad,
about their ordeal
3. learned about Open Source options which I will look into.

I'm on a Mac and because ALL the new Macs are Duo Core CPUs
and OS 10.5 aka Leopard is now UNIX behind the Apple GUI,
earlier Mac applications CANNOT run on the new machine and
latest OS. Apple earlier had a "Classic Mode" which allowed
new machines and OS to emulate the "classic" systems. Alas,
they've decided to go with a Clean Break - No Looking Back
approach. I'm hoping that at some point someone will come
out with an "old system" emulator that'll let me continue to
cling to applications I know like the back of my hand and can
get it to do things I'm sure the original developer hadn't even
thought of.

If you still have your old machine and if it's a PowerMac, you could
try sheepshaver--you'll need to use your old OS and burn a copy of its
ROMs though. Sheepshaver hasn't been updated since 2006 so no
guarantees that it will run on your machine.

Oh - the basic easy to use CAD application is SuperPaint 3.0.

As for downloading software - I DO NOT provide my debit card
number over the internet - period. So far I haven't found a
way to pay for the software over the phone - to a known
phone number I can verify via a net search - and get a code
to "unlock" downloaded software.

Seems to me that you're going out of your way to make things hard for
yourself.

Most face to face purchases these days involve having your card number
sent over the Internet you know. If you find that phone number and
talk to a person the first thing he's going to do is punch your card
number into a computer and send it to Verifone or one of the other
online credit/debit card transaction processing services.

The notion that credit card numbers get stolen by sniffing packets
between you and Adobe or whoever is based on out of date
information--https closed tht gap years ago--yeah, https can be
cracked but there's so much https traffic that doesn't have credit
card numbers that you can't get enough that way to pay for the
computer power necessary to do the cracking. When credit card numbers
get stolen they get stolen by cracking the system that is storing
them--if someone cracks Adobe's accounting system then they're going
to get your number no matter if it was entered by you online or by
some functionary in Mumbai sitting at his keyboard.

Anyway - thanks for the suggestions and commiseration.
NOW I'm calm enough to go play with wood.

charlie b

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Jim Weisgram wrote:
On Mon, 02 Jun 2008 14:27:17 -0500, dpb wrote:

charlieb wrote:
...
The software, on the other hand, is where the nightmares begin.
...

I suppose you tried the recourse of trying to install current versions
you're used to on the new boxen?

Other than the new broswer (I would recommend Mozilla/Thunderbird) if
they were doing the job before, I'd try that route firstest.

Perhaps you mean Mozilla/Firefox. Thunderbird is an email program and
newsreader.

No, I meant both Firefox and Thunderbird, actually (hence the slash) but
inadvertently left one out...

--

On Mon, 02 Jun 2008 10:57:32 -0700, charlieb wrote:

I was listening to a guy - in INDIA! - Mumbai (I think that's what the
city formerly known as Bombay is now called)! I was to discover.

I went through the same thing with a cell phone Charlie. I finally filed
a BBB complaint and that got me to a nice lady in Florida who not only
spoke understandable English, she fixed my problem (by shipping a whole
new phone) in about five minutes flat.

I agree (kinda) with the responder who suggested open source software. I
use Linux for most stuff. But if you aren't familiar with Unixish OSs, it
can be a steep learning curve.

charlieb wrote:

But TWO CDs - from
a company with its World Headquarters "just up the road"?


Never buy from a manufacturer of software. They will charge List and they
know very little about retail sales. You will wait a Long time to get
product from them. No matter where you live. Buy from Amazon for less and
get it sooner.

charlieb wrote:

WARNING: THIS ONE'S L O N G
snip

I'm assuming a PC. If it is a Mac, I have even less of an clue.


But that's minor compared to the fun and games of "upgrading" software
I've been using since version 1.0 (ok so some of the stuff I use I
started with version 3.0 - though I still have Mosaic, which was
Netscape version 0.1).

Firefox.


So I need to upgrade a simple CAD/"paint" application from the one
I've been using since 1989 - it's LAST update was 1993. That company,
Aldus, was bought out by Adobe and the product was shelved and
therefore no longer available. Still haven't found the NEW product
that'll do what I "could" do with the OLD product, but I've found a
few that sort of MIGHT do the job.

Sketchup free from google, or spend the bucks for the 'Pro' version. They
just came out with a $149 renderer.


snip


BUT - for ONLY $299, I CAN get PhotoShop-Lite.

How about PhotoShop Elements?

Picasa free from google might do cataloging better. I played with the
Beta of Lightroom from Adobe and was pretty impressed with it. IIRC, they
were looking for a lot more than $199 when it first came out. Worth
looking at. The open source GIMP is also worth a look.

Now the third leg of my Triad is a website building and maintaining
application. Because I was a loyal Adobe PhotoShop customer, I of
course bought Adobe GoLive and bought the intervening "upgrades". So
I WAS intending to get the Newest Upgrade that IS compatible with my
NEW computer's NEW Operating System.

SURPRISE! Adobe discontinued GoLive.

Use it until you find something else you want or Really Need. If, as you
say, you are doing extremely simple web sites, GoLive should suffice for
a long time and Should load on your new system. You're Not getting Vista
as an OS, are you?

snip

Every time I buy a new piece of hardware, it takes me Eight Hours Minimum
to get everything playing together normally again and I've been working
and playing with HW and SW since 1965 (1961 if you count medical
instruments). So, Best O' Luck with doing a new system!

dpb wrote:

charlieb wrote:
...
The software, on the other hand, is where the nightmares begin.
...

I suppose you tried the recourse of trying to install current versions
you're used to on the new boxen?

Other than the new broswer (I would recommend Mozilla/Thunderbird) if
they were doing the job before, I'd try that route firstest.

--

Also, if you are doing web site design, you might look at SeaMonkey. I
don't know if it is sufficiently powerful for your desires, but the price
is right and it does work.


--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough

Peter Huebner wrote:

.... snip
Sometimes I get the impression that some of the people in
management these days graduated from Pratchett's Guild of
Clowns. Thank you Dr. Whiteface. Thank you.

-P.

Nope, they all read the same Harvard Business Review papers. That used to
be pretty good, but lately seems to be dispensing more the "management
process paradigm de' jour". This results in an amazing amount of
uniformity among corporations (same Titanic, different deck chairs).
Whatever happened to innovation and processes and methods that
differentiated a company from its competition? Walmart didn't get to where
it is today by following the same processes that Sears and Penney's were
using. Now, it almost doesn't matter, scratch off the company logo and
it's all the same "green initiative", or "6s" or "7s" process whereever you
go.


--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough

Mark & Juanita wrote:
....

Nope, they all read the same Harvard Business Review papers. That used to
be pretty good, but lately seems to be dispensing more the "management
process paradigm de' jour". ...

That's nothing new at all. Even in the 60's and 70s there were an
unending stream of "revolutionary paradigms" under such names as
"Management By Objectives" etc., etc, etc., ...

--

GoLive 5 will NOT run on Mac OS 1.5 (aka Leopard) - whch will ONLY
run on the new Intel Duo-Core cpus. Nor will GoLive 6 or 7, 7 being
the LAST version of GoLive apparently, DreamWeave becoming
the replacement for what would've been GoLive 8 & 9. So GoLive
is a dead end on the new Mac Mini - replaced by DreamWeaver CS3.

I did download and install ThunderBird on the new Mac Mini - and it
appears to only deal with e-mail - but doesn't get me to UseNet.
I suspect there's an Outlook Express version that will work on
the new Mac Mini - and will provide access to Usenet News Group
- like rec.woodworking. But my experience with OE wasn't very
good - can't jump around following a thread - some initiated
weeks earlier.

BUT - I did get the Adobe Software I ordered on May 27th -
this afternoon, June 3rd.

I started with DreamWeaver - inserted the CD and read the
ReadMe.html file - which told me to skip installing DreamWeaver
1.0 on the disk and go download and install the upgrade -
DreamWeaver 1.1. Installed the "upgrade" and got zapped
in the "registration". THEN I noticed that the CD I got in
the mail was already DreamWeaver 1.1. So I tried installing
off the CD. And after slogging through "the install Wizard"
I get to the "enter your Serial Number" - and find out that
Adobe GoLive 5.0, which the guy in Bremerton who took my
original order, assured me qualified for the brand new
DreamWeaver Upgrade, IS NOT eligible for the "special
upgrade" package - and price.

Of course, by the time that discovery was made - it was
too late to call Adobe Customer Support.

So I open up the Adobe LightRoom box, pop the CD in the
new Mac Mini - install it - open it, register it and start
playing with it. In a half an hour I see a lot of possibilities
- and a LOT of screen space taken up my menus. I also
haven't found the image processing stuff I use a lot
- curves, layers and text - along with "unsharp". And it's
not clear if I can cut a graphic created in say SketchUp
and paste it into a new, blank LightRoom image file.

So tomorrow - I'll play The Phone Tree Game - AGAIN -
and supect that it'll be an hour or so before I'm informed
that they want Mo' Money to be able to actually get a
version of DreamWeaver that I can actually use.

Boy am I really looking foreward to the next few days,
or weeks - just to get to the foot of the learning curve.

Sigh.

charlie b

2 quick suggestions.. Gimp is available for windows and mac, and if you
can get past the relearning what you need, it'll do damn near anything.

The other one is a newsreader I use. Pan. It's available for windows and
any open-source os, not sure about mac. It does what I want done and not
much else.

On Wed, 04 Jun 2008 10:04:45 +0000, Tim wrote:

2 quick suggestions.. Gimp is available for windows and mac, and if you
can get past the relearning what you need, it'll do damn near anything.

The other one is a newsreader I use. Pan. It's available for windows and
any open-source os, not sure about mac. It does what I want done and not
much else.

http://gimp-win.sourceforge.net/
http://pan.rebelbase.com/download/

Forgot the urls. No joy for mac users with pan, but gimp will work. And
the nice part of open source programs such as these, is that they'll work
as long as there are people left to use them, fix them, and update them
for new operating systems. And the interface is not marketing-driven.

Thunderbird will do Usenet news. I haven't used it because I never
knew it was there. Open Thunderbird and select File - New -
Account
Click Usenet Account and go from there. I'm not sure if it does
filtering or not. Probably does. I'll mess around with it a bit and
let you know. I've been using Thunderbird for my e-mail for years and
I think it's a great product. I've been using Pan for news.

dayvo wrote:
Thunderbird will do Usenet news. I haven't used it because I never
knew it was there. Open Thunderbird and select File - New -
Account
Click Usenet Account and go from there. I'm not sure if it does
filtering or not. ...

Yes, under Tools menu. Not absolute greatest but work altho not
self-training/evolutionary they're fixed rules.

--

Tim wrote:

On Wed, 04 Jun 2008 10:04:45 +0000, Tim wrote:

2 quick suggestions.. Gimp is available for windows and mac, and if you
can get past the relearning what you need, it'll do damn near anything.

The other one is a newsreader I use. Pan. It's available for windows and
any open-source os, not sure about mac. It does what I want done and not
much else.

http://gimp-win.sourceforge.net/
http://pan.rebelbase.com/download/

Forgot the urls. No joy for mac users with pan, but gimp will work. And
the nice part of open source programs such as these, is that they'll work
as long as there are people left to use them, fix them, and update them
for new operating systems. And the interface is not marketing-driven.

What he said, loaded GIMP on SWMBO's iMAC last week -- works well. There
are on-line tutorials for GIMP. I don't have any experience with Photoshop
so I can't comment on how GIMP compares as far as ease of use to PS. GIMP
will most likely do anything you want, I'm just not sure how easy or hard
it will be relative to that which you know.


--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough

On Mon, 02 Jun 2008 18:54:10 -0700, charlieb
wrote:

As for downloading software - I DO NOT provide my debit card
number over the internet - period. So far I haven't found a
way to pay for the software over the phone - to a known
phone number I can verify via a net search - and get a code
to "unlock" downloaded software.

First, commiseration on your saga - been there, done that, many times
in the past.

Second, you may want to re-think the CC/DC number over Internet thing.
Lots of people hesitate to do so, but the truth is that if you are on
a secure transaction site from a reputable company there is little to
worry about. I thought I was paranoid in that I actually have a
separate bank account that I use mostly for on-line stuff (including
Paypal) but in probably close to 15 years of buying off the Internet I
have never had a problem. On the other hand, I have twice had my
credit card number stolen from face-to-face transactions. Once a
rather stupid gas station guy who actually used his own e-mail address
to sign up for a porn subscription using my card which he simply
copied the relevant information when he was running it through the
machine. The other time it was almost certainly from a restaurant
worker. I know those two were not from Internet use because that
particular card was not ever used on-line. The point is that careful
Internet usage is both safe and reliable - possibly more so than any
other type of transaction with your card.

I hope you've gotten it all back working for you. We have 11
computers in our house, so updates are a pretty continual fact of life
here, but it never gets simple.

Tim Douglass

http://www.DouglassClan.com

"I'm not exactly burned out, but I'm a little bit scorched and there's some smoke damage."

charlieb wrote:
As for downloading software - I DO NOT provide my debit card
number over the internet - period. So far I haven't found a
way to pay for the software over the phone - to a known
phone number I can verify via a net search - and get a code
to "unlock" downloaded software.


Some credit card providers give you the ability to create a 'single use'
credit card number for use online.
I just go to the discover card site, and it lets me generate a single
use number, with a preset limit, to use for a single online purchase.
You get to buy from an online vendor with a number that works for that
transaction only.