AMuzi wrote, on Thu, 10 Dec 2015 07:51:35 -0600:

The first is a cleaner (used to be MEK). You can't get a
decent bond until you remove ALL the dirt, wax, oil, crud
etc from the surface. Contamination spoils more patches than
any other fault.

Ah, MEK, Methyl-Ethyl Ketones.

This is a great help because that first stripper being MEK makes
it 2 out of the 3 tire repair fluids that are easy to come by!

Googling the hardware stores, it looks like MEK is sold as
a common paint thinner.

1. HOME DEPOT: Klean-Strip, 32 oz. Methyl Ethyl Ketone (MEK) Solvent
Model # QME71, Internet # 100210976, Store SKU # 834408
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Klean-Str...ME71/100210976

2. LOWES: Jasco Gallon Size Can Fast to Dissolve Methyl Ethyl Ketone (MEK)
(128-fl oz) Item #: 622034, Model #: GJME180
3. LOWES: Crown 1-Gallon Fast to Dissolve Methyl Ethyl Ketone
Item #: 206493, Model #: CR.MK.M.41

3. MENARDS: Sunnyside Methyl Ethyl Ketone - 1 qt
Model Number: 84732, Menards SKU: 5613803

Am I correct that MEK is our basic paint thinner at any box shop?

Danny D. wrote:
rbowman wrote, on Thu, 10 Dec 2015 08:21:48 -0700:

I look the same whether I'm riding one of my Suzukis or the Harley with
one exception. The Harley has a handy sissy bar to hang the helmet on
where with the Jap bikes i wear it.

I do not have any HD apparel; I just have the HD.

If I had a BMW, it would be the same. The closest I've gotten to
Aerostich is reading the catalog. I could replace my entire wardrobe for
the price of one of their Power Ranger suits.

I agree the Aerostich suits are expensive, but their quality is phenomenal
and their customer service fantastic. They even let you ride for a month
to test out their suits (ask me how I know) for size and fit (which is
especially useful for big fat guys).

Also, they unzip beautifully so once you figure out how to get "in"
to them, they come off easily. Which was my point.

Most Harley riders do two things differently than other bikers:
1. They wear less-protective gear (as a statement?), and,
2. They wear HD-branded gear (as another statement?).

Most riceburners do two things differently than other bikers:
A. They wear colorful leathers, and,
B. They carry their helmets with them whenever they go into a joint

Most beemer riders do two things differently than other bikers:
a. They unzip their Aerostich such that they look normal in a joint
b. They brave weather and carry lots of stuff in those ugly saddlebags

Most Moto-Guzzi riders do two things differently than other bikers:
a. They carry a complete tool kit
b. They spend most of their time on the shoulder trying to fix the damn thing.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Scott Dorsey wrote, on Thu, 10 Dec 2015 11:11:40 -0500:

Most Moto-Guzzi riders do two things differently than other bikers:
a. They carry a complete tool kit
b. They spend most of their time on the shoulder trying to fix the damn thing.
--scott

On 12/10/2015 10:08 AM, Danny D. wrote:
AMuzi wrote, on Thu, 10 Dec 2015 07:51:35 -0600:

The first is a cleaner (used to be MEK). You can't get a
decent bond until you remove ALL the dirt, wax, oil, crud
etc from the surface. Contamination spoils more patches than
any other fault.

Ah, MEK, Methyl-Ethyl Ketones.

This is a great help because that first stripper being MEK makes
it 2 out of the 3 tire repair fluids that are easy to come by!

Googling the hardware stores, it looks like MEK is sold as
a common paint thinner.

1. HOME DEPOT: Klean-Strip, 32 oz. Methyl Ethyl Ketone (MEK) Solvent
Model # QME71, Internet # 100210976, Store SKU # 834408
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Klean-Str...ME71/100210976

2. LOWES: Jasco Gallon Size Can Fast to Dissolve Methyl Ethyl Ketone (MEK)
(128-fl oz) Item #: 622034, Model #: GJME180
3. LOWES: Crown 1-Gallon Fast to Dissolve Methyl Ethyl Ketone
Item #: 206493, Model #: CR.MK.M.41

3. MENARDS: Sunnyside Methyl Ethyl Ketone - 1 qt
Model Number: 84732, Menards SKU: 5613803

Am I correct that MEK is our basic paint thinner at any box shop?


Don't overthink this.
Find a Tech service truck or similar vendor who does this
all day long and get your materials and advice from an expert.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

AMuzi wrote, on Thu, 10 Dec 2015 10:17:26 -0600:

Don't overthink this.
Find a Tech service truck or similar vendor who does this
all day long and get your materials and advice from an expert.

You have no idea where I live.
Nor that I'm retired, so, I never go into town.

I'm in the mountains. We don't even have cable.
We don't have sewage pipes. We don't have gas pipes.
We all have wells.

There is zero chance I'm gonna run into a 'tech service truck'.

I have to go into town, explicitly, and then *look* for my solvents.

So far, there are three that are useful for tire puncture repair:

1. The stripper (which, if it's MEK, is easy to come by!)
2. The cement (which is very easy to come by)
3. The sealer (which is a tar-like substance of some sort)

Does anyone know what might be a good source of the tarlike substance
at the box stores that is similar to the butyl rubber tire sealant they
use to seal the inside of the tire after we've buffed it all up during
the patching process?

I'll head off to Home Depot today to see if I can find a tar-like
chemical that works with butyl rubber - but - as you know - those
orange-aproned people, while very nice, won't be able to advise me.

Vic Smith wrote, on Wed, 09 Dec 2015 03:47:08 -0600:

Same here. I've done 4 or 5 that way. Kits cost $3-10.
They didn't come with a rasp when I was buying them.

Most of the tire repair videos do *not* use the dimpled
scraper that most of us use to repair a tire.

They pour what turns out to be MEK onto the inner liner,
which, presumably, dissolves some of the inner liner,
and then they scrape with this tool:

http://www.grainger.com/product/XTRA...Scraper-33K072
http://www.walmart.com/ip/XTRA-SEAL-...74974/40883102

After they scrape, they do "grind" the scraped area also.

They seem to prefer very low speeds when grinding, like 500rpm
and never more than 5,000 RPM.

Is that for heat reasons?

Danny D. wrote, on Thu, 10 Dec 2015 00:30:03 +0000:

Does anyone on this newsgroup know of any commonly available substitute
for this black goopy inner liner sealer?

This seems to be the inner liner sealer goopy tar.
But I don't know if there is a box store equivalent.

$1 per ounce:
http://safetytireseal.com/sc16.html

$2 per ounce:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Tire-Patch-R...-/121309678038

http://www.lawsonproducts.com/lawson...ler/1417734.lp
http://yourtireshopsupply.com/produc...ant-16oz-re76f

I still haven't been able to figure out what this stuff is
made up of, and where I can get it at reasonable prices in
small quantities at the box stores.

On Thu, 10 Dec 2015 18:22:36 -0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

Vic Smith wrote, on Wed, 09 Dec 2015 03:47:08 -0600:

Same here. I've done 4 or 5 that way. Kits cost $3-10.
They didn't come with a rasp when I was buying them.

Most of the tire repair videos do *not* use the dimpled
scraper that most of us use to repair a tire.

They pour what turns out to be MEK onto the inner liner,
which, presumably, dissolves some of the inner liner,
and then they scrape with this tool:

http://www.grainger.com/product/XTRA...Scraper-33K072
http://www.walmart.com/ip/XTRA-SEAL-...74974/40883102

After they scrape, they do "grind" the scraped area also.

They seem to prefer very low speeds when grinding, like 500rpm
and never more than 5,000 RPM.

Is that for heat reasons?

Beats me. They probably don't know either. You can generate plenty
of heat at 500 rpm.
Like I said, if I ever get a screw or nail in a tire, I'll just get a
plug kit. Or take it to a nearby Just Tires. Done that too.
If I can't find a puncture, I assume it's a rim leak. But one time
they found a nail I had missed.

Vic Smith wrote:
On Thu, 10 Dec 2015 18:22:36 -0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

Vic Smith wrote, on Wed, 09 Dec 2015 03:47:08 -0600:

Same here. I've done 4 or 5 that way. Kits cost $3-10.
They didn't come with a rasp when I was buying them.

Most of the tire repair videos do *not* use the dimpled
scraper that most of us use to repair a tire.

They pour what turns out to be MEK onto the inner liner,
which, presumably, dissolves some of the inner liner,
and then they scrape with this tool:

http://www.grainger.com/product/XTRA...Scraper-33K072
http://www.walmart.com/ip/XTRA-SEAL-...74974/40883102

After they scrape, they do "grind" the scraped area also.

They seem to prefer very low speeds when grinding, like 500rpm
and never more than 5,000 RPM.

Is that for heat reasons?

Beats me. They probably don't know either. You can generate plenty
of heat at 500 rpm.
Like I said, if I ever get a screw or nail in a tire, I'll just get a
plug kit. Or take it to a nearby Just Tires. Done that too.
If I can't find a puncture, I assume it's a rim leak. But one time
they found a nail I had missed.

Tires are most important parts of vehicle, each maintaining firm contact
with surface supporting the vehicle. Each contact area is
mere sq. inches. For me, I don't want to play with damaged tire(s).
I don't want to put myself and family for possible danger due to
so called repaired tire. My driving is mostly freeway driving doing
70 mph or so. It all takes is just one accident. Even new tires can
cause an accident. I don't want to learn a lesson paying my life.

In Germany cops can impound your car if you are driving with worn
tire(s). It's pretty scary driving on Autobahn first time.

Danny D. tire repair Guru!!! Good luck driving your Bimmer on patched
tire(s).

On 12/10/2015 11:17 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/10/2015 10:08 AM, Danny D. wrote:
The first is a cleaner (used to be MEK). You can't get a
decent bond until you remove ALL the dirt, wax, oil, crud
etc from the surface. Contamination spoils more patches than
any other fault.

Ah, MEK, Methyl-Ethyl Ketones.

Am I correct that MEK is our basic paint thinner at any box shop?


Don't overthink this.
Find a Tech service truck or similar vendor who does this all day long
and get your materials and advice from an expert.


1) Danny is well known for over thinking things.
2) Many paint thinners are "mineral spirits". Not
sure if that's same thing.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On Thu, 10 Dec 2015 07:10:08 -0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

clare wrote, on Wed, 09 Dec 2015 23:12:31 -0500:

I always bought mine from the "wagon jobber" who came to my place of
business every couple weeks to make sure I had enough valve stems,
patches, cement, balance weights, and other tire supplies. Most of my
working life that was REMA TIP TOP, and at one location it was Tech
Tire.

Did you use all three fluids?
They seem all to be very different.


They are all different - can;t use one in place of the other, and
foolish to try something not made for the job.


1. The first fluid seems to be a strong solvent, which seems to *melt*
the rubber a bit, so that the half-moon scraper can scrape away
the surface.

2. The second fluid is the vulcanizing cement. I always thought that
vulcanizing required *heat*; but apparently not.

Neaver heard of RTV Silicone?? R for ROOM, T for TEMPERATURE, V for
VULCANIZING

3. The third fluid is the last thing you apply, which, I believe is
critical, which is the *sealer* to prevent moisture and air from
seeping into the belts.

The first fluid, if I only knew what it was made out of, seems to be
an easy fluid to substitute using some strong solvent in the hardware
store.

Why would you? It's only YOUR LIFE riding on that tire, and the lives
of everybody you may hit if the tire blows on the road. DO NOT screw
around with tire , brake, or steering repairs. A criminal negligence
charge will stay with you for a lifetime even if you survive.

That last fluid, which I think is the most critical, seems to be some
sort of "rubberized tar", which, to me, seems the most critical of all
the fluids, because you want to seal up all the damage you did with
all that scraping away of the inner liner skin.
That "most critical" fluid has only become anything resembling common
in the last decade or so. It was virtually unheard of when I was
working as a mechanic and fixing tires - and I'd venture to guess
better than 90% of tire repair shops still don't use it - barticularly
with a "mushroom" patch.

On Thu, 10 Dec 2015 07:51:35 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

On 12/10/2015 1:10 AM, Danny D. wrote:
clare wrote, on Wed, 09 Dec 2015 23:12:31 -0500:

I always bought mine from the "wagon jobber" who came to my place of
business every couple weeks to make sure I had enough valve stems,
patches, cement, balance weights, and other tire supplies. Most of my
working life that was REMA TIP TOP, and at one location it was Tech
Tire.

Did you use all three fluids?
They seem all to be very different.

1. The first fluid seems to be a strong solvent, which seems to *melt*
the rubber a bit, so that the half-moon scraper can scrape away
the surface.

2. The second fluid is the vulcanizing cement. I always thought that
vulcanizing required *heat*; but apparently not.

3. The third fluid is the last thing you apply, which, I believe is
critical, which is the *sealer* to prevent moisture and air from
seeping into the belts.

The first fluid, if I only knew what it was made out of, seems to be
an easy fluid to substitute using some strong solvent in the hardware
store.

That last fluid, which I think is the most critical, seems to be some
sort of "rubberized tar", which, to me, seems the most critical of all
the fluids, because you want to seal up all the damage you did with
all that scraping away of the inner liner skin.


The first is a cleaner (used to be MEK). You can't get a
decent bond until you remove ALL the dirt, wax, oil, crud
etc from the surface. Contamination spoils more patches than
any other fault.
And that is what the "scraping" is for - to expose raw clean surface
for gluing..

The old trick of applying glue, lighting it with a match, then
scraping off the remains before applying more glue and the patch did
the same thing.

Danny D. posted for all of us...



Paintedcow wrote, on Mon, 07 Dec 2015 13:13:55 -0600:

I never knew they make such a thing. Sounds like a good idea though.
A local tire shop will patch a tire for $10 or less, so I just let them
do it

You live in a different world than I live in, because NOTHING
is $10 "or less" at a repair shop. Absolutely NOTHING. Maybe you
live in Kansas or Texas, or some other cheap state, but this is
California. Absolutely nothing is $10.

I just called three local tire-related shops.
Most charged $30 for just the patch (not the patchplug).
The cheapest was $20 for a plug from the outside only.

Anyway, the cost isn't the issue.
They *never* do the job right.

It's not that they don't KNOW how.
It's that their CUSTOMER generally doesn't know how.
So, they cheat.

Every single time.
You can NOT get a good job from them, unless you ride herd on
them, and you may as well just do it yourself.

Besides, I've changed and mounted my own tires using the Harbor
Frieght tool. For low-profile performance tires on aluminum rims,
the job is EASY. As easy (almost) as changing brakes and rotors.

It's not difficult at all (until/unless you get to the really
thick sidewall tires such as SUV tires - which ARE harder!).

Good Fast Cheap Pick two You seem to want premium stuff at bankruptcy
prices.

--
Tekkie

Danny D. posted for all of us...



Tony Hwang wrote, on Mon, 07 Dec 2015 13:36:21 -0700:

You don't balance them when installing yourself?

Of course I do.
I balance them *statically*.
If you want, I'll snap a picture of my mounting and balance tools.

I use the stickon weights from HF.
I bought quarter ounce zinc weights (California has a thing about lead).
But I found 1/2 ounce is fine so next time I'll buy 1/2 ounce instead.

There is no vibration.
At any speed.
Yes I fully know EVERYONE swears you must dynamically balance.
I know that.

But, guess what?
My wheels don't vibrate.
At any speed.

So what does that tell you?

IDK, ask the suspension.

--
Tekkie

On Thu, 10 Dec 2015 15:56:01 -0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

rbowman wrote, on Thu, 10 Dec 2015 08:21:48 -0700:

I look the same whether I'm riding one of my Suzukis or the Harley with
one exception. The Harley has a handy sissy bar to hang the helmet on
where with the Jap bikes i wear it.

I do not have any HD apparel; I just have the HD.

If I had a BMW, it would be the same. The closest I've gotten to
Aerostich is reading the catalog. I could replace my entire wardrobe for
the price of one of their Power Ranger suits.

I agree the Aerostich suits are expensive, but their quality is phenomenal
and their customer service fantastic. They even let you ride for a month
to test out their suits (ask me how I know) for size and fit (which is
especially useful for big fat guys).

Also, they unzip beautifully so once you figure out how to get "in"
to them, they come off easily. Which was my point.

Most Harley riders do two things differently than other bikers:
1. They wear less-protective gear (as a statement?), and,
2. They wear HD-branded gear (as another statement?).

Most riceburners do two things differently than other bikers:
A. They wear colorful leathers, and,
B. They carry their helmets with them whenever they go into a joint

Most beemer riders do two things differently than other bikers:
a. They unzip their Aerostich such that they look normal in a joint
b. They brave weather and carry lots of stuff in those ugly saddlebags

Of course, these are generalizations borne out of experience, but,
you know what I'm talking about.
You are talking "different horses for different courses"
And in the Harly croud you have the "Rubbies" and the "Grubbies"

The "Rubbies" are "Rich Urban Bikers" - the same demographic as most
BMW riders - although they tend more towards the "Yuppie" and/or the
"Metrosexual" The Harley Rubbies tend to be older and ride "cruisers"
while the BMW drivers tend to be younger and ride "baggers"
Wingers tend to be Rubbies (either bagger or cruiser)who don;t like
marking their territory and constantly working on their bikes.

posted for all of us...



You were never in MY shop!!!


Your shop didn't say DISCOUNT on it.

--
Tekkie

posted for all of us...



On Mon, 7 Dec 2015 16:45:40 -0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

I'm gonna patch my first automotive tire this week.

I need your advice on a good inside automotive tire patch
as I got a flat today, switched with the spare, and went
about a half mile to the nearest auto parts store.
https://i.imgur.com/kb3a6rs.jpg

All they had are bike-tire-type patches at the one auto parts
store I stopped at today; they only had crappy passenger tire
patches (little round things, very thin).

I prefer rectangular-cut larger patches (dunno why - I just
feel they might hold better). Those that are something like
three or four inches long or so.

I can easily remove the tire and replace it on the rim
and balance it afterward so this question is only about
the patch. I do not want to patch it from the outside
because I feel that isn't as good as from inside.

Where do you get your inside-tire automotive tire patches?
What type of patch/glue/prep do you recommend?
https://i.imgur.com/InL9A8y.jpg
Take it to a real tire shop and have a "mushroom" patch installed.
It has a plug and a patch combined..
The "tech" product is one of the best.

See his reply to this post. He has added a new word: FREE

--
Tekkie

Danny D. posted for all of us...



clare wrote, on Mon, 07 Dec 2015 16:34:53 -0500:

I can generally also buy the parts I require to do my own repairs
cheaper from the dealer than from the autoparts store - and almost
ALWAYS cheaper than on-line when you factor in the shipping.

I must agree that *shipping* on tires from Tire Rack, even when it
just ships by UPS from Nevada to California, still costs about $25
per tire.

So, at $100 per tire times five, the tires cost $500 but shipping alone
is $125 which is huge compared to the sales tax on $500 which is only about
$50 (roughly) if bought at a tire store.

So, the way to go, if you can find it, is to find a place that *matches*
tire rack prices for the tires, and then it only charges the 10% (or whatever)
sales tax, and then you have no shipping costs.

Tires are odd that way, because they cost a *lot* to ship.
Usually shipping and tax cancel each other out; but not with tires.

Sigh.

Places around me beat tire rack prices any day of the week. I inquired about
their installation places. 4 of 4 were more expensive than the regular
dealers, just for fitting. The fourth I knew and had the reputation of
crappy work, which I observed on several occasions. No thanks.

--
Tekkie

On Thu, 10 Dec 2015 16:08:45 -0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

AMuzi wrote, on Thu, 10 Dec 2015 07:51:35 -0600:

The first is a cleaner (used to be MEK). You can't get a
decent bond until you remove ALL the dirt, wax, oil, crud
etc from the surface. Contamination spoils more patches than
any other fault.

Ah, MEK, Methyl-Ethyl Ketones.

This is a great help because that first stripper being MEK makes
it 2 out of the 3 tire repair fluids that are easy to come by!

Googling the hardware stores, it looks like MEK is sold as
a common paint thinner.

1. HOME DEPOT: Klean-Strip, 32 oz. Methyl Ethyl Ketone (MEK) Solvent
Model # QME71, Internet # 100210976, Store SKU # 834408
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Klean-Str...ME71/100210976

2. LOWES: Jasco Gallon Size Can Fast to Dissolve Methyl Ethyl Ketone (MEK)
(128-fl oz) Item #: 622034, Model #: GJME180
3. LOWES: Crown 1-Gallon Fast to Dissolve Methyl Ethyl Ketone
Item #: 206493, Model #: CR.MK.M.41

3. MENARDS: Sunnyside Methyl Ethyl Ketone - 1 qt
Model Number: 84732, Menards SKU: 5613803

Am I correct that MEK is our basic paint thinner at any box shop?
I would use what the patch company recommends. Tech's "Rub=O-Matic"
rubber cleaner has no MEK in it. it is basically a light naptha (pure
petroleum product)


Rema uses a water based pummice product to buff the rubber liner for
repair.
Their flamable pre-buff is almost pure N-Heptane. Their non flamable
pre-buff is Triclorethelene

The "glue" is also specific to the patch product being used. -I would
not mix one company's glue with another companies specialized patch
products.

On Thu, 10 Dec 2015 17:36:27 -0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

AMuzi wrote, on Thu, 10 Dec 2015 10:17:26 -0600:

Don't overthink this.
Find a Tech service truck or similar vendor who does this
all day long and get your materials and advice from an expert.

You have no idea where I live.
Nor that I'm retired, so, I never go into town.

I'm in the mountains. We don't even have cable.
We don't have sewage pipes. We don't have gas pipes.
We all have wells.

There is zero chance I'm gonna run into a 'tech service truck'.

I have to go into town, explicitly, and then *look* for my solvents.

So far, there are three that are useful for tire puncture repair:

1. The stripper (which, if it's MEK, is easy to come by!)
2. The cement (which is very easy to come by)
3. The sealer (which is a tar-like substance of some sort)

Does anyone know what might be a good source of the tarlike substance
at the box stores that is similar to the butyl rubber tire sealant they
use to seal the inside of the tire after we've buffed it all up during
the patching process?

I'll head off to Home Depot today to see if I can find a tar-like
chemical that works with butyl rubber - but - as you know - those
orange-aproned people, while very nice, won't be able to advise me.
Like I said before "don't screw around with tire repairs" "It's
only YOUR LIFE at stake."
Don't prove yourself stupid.

On Thu, 10 Dec 2015 18:22:36 -0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

Vic Smith wrote, on Wed, 09 Dec 2015 03:47:08 -0600:

Same here. I've done 4 or 5 that way. Kits cost $3-10.
They didn't come with a rasp when I was buying them.

Most of the tire repair videos do *not* use the dimpled
scraper that most of us use to repair a tire.

They pour what turns out to be MEK onto the inner liner,
which, presumably, dissolves some of the inner liner,
and then they scrape with this tool:

http://www.grainger.com/product/XTRA...Scraper-33K072
http://www.walmart.com/ip/XTRA-SEAL-...74974/40883102

After they scrape, they do "grind" the scraped area also.

They seem to prefer very low speeds when grinding, like 500rpm
and never more than 5,000 RPM.

Is that for heat reasons?
It aint MEK., and yes, low speed is required because if you burn the
rubber the tire is FUBAR. Best thing for "grinding" the liner is a
prep disk on a low speed die grinder or air drill.. Use a PROPER
PREBUFF cleaner, or a pure hydrocarbon solvent like napyha , white
gas, or even TRicor. (all components of the major tire repair
companies' pre-buff cleaners).

In a pinch, use tire patch glue ans scrape it off with a razor blade.

posted for all of us...



For tubes I generally had "monkey grips" in stock and the clamp
required to use them. If they sit around too long they don't light and
burn properly so they don't vulcanize properly. That's the only way
to replace a bad valve stem too. (you don't throw away a tractor tire
tube just because the valve stem lets go, and you can't use a bolt in
stem without a vulcanized "hard spot".


Oh, more memories. Monkey Grip - I can still visualize the can and lighting
the glue....

Let's take this tread to re-vulcanized condoms. Maybe more posts.

--
Tekkie

On Thu, 10 Dec 2015 18:26:46 -0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

Danny D. wrote, on Thu, 10 Dec 2015 00:30:03 +0000:

Does anyone on this newsgroup know of any commonly available substitute
for this black goopy inner liner sealer?

This seems to be the inner liner sealer goopy tar.
But I don't know if there is a box store equivalent.

$1 per ounce:
http://safetytireseal.com/sc16.html

$2 per ounce:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Tire-Patch-R...-/121309678038

http://www.lawsonproducts.com/lawson...ler/1417734.lp
http://yourtireshopsupply.com/produc...ant-16oz-re76f

I still haven't been able to figure out what this stuff is
made up of, and where I can get it at reasonable prices in
small quantities at the box stores.
It is a butyl rubber sealer containing hydro treated heavy parafinic
petroleum distilates, carbon black, di(benzothiazol-2-yl) disulphide,
and zinc oxide along with butyl rubber resin.

It is made for the job, and you would be far better off not using
anything (the way it has been done for many years by many tire repair
professionals) than using something untied and unproven in it's place.
Like I said befo "Dont screw with tire repairs" "It's only your
life riding on that repair"

Either do it right, or get it done.
Criminal negligence charges stay with you for life if you happen to
survive and someone else doesn't

Ashton Crusher posted for all of us...


I think a lot of these "proper ways" are fine but are often simply
driven by lawsuits. Some gas station repaired a flat tire, the guy
then has an accident and blames the repair and gets paid "experts" to
testify it was all because of that improperly done repair. No
evidence that a "proper repair" would have changed anything of course.
The same reason some tire places insist the new tires HAVE to go on
the rear of the car leaving you with half worn out front tires on your
FWD car at the start of snow season.


So I guess the research the tire co's means nothing to you.

--
Tekkie

On Thu, 10 Dec 2015 12:03:23 -0700, Tony Hwang
wrote:

Vic Smith wrote:
On Thu, 10 Dec 2015 18:22:36 -0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

Vic Smith wrote, on Wed, 09 Dec 2015 03:47:08 -0600:

Same here. I've done 4 or 5 that way. Kits cost $3-10.
They didn't come with a rasp when I was buying them.

Most of the tire repair videos do *not* use the dimpled
scraper that most of us use to repair a tire.

They pour what turns out to be MEK onto the inner liner,
which, presumably, dissolves some of the inner liner,
and then they scrape with this tool:

http://www.grainger.com/product/XTRA...Scraper-33K072
http://www.walmart.com/ip/XTRA-SEAL-...74974/40883102

After they scrape, they do "grind" the scraped area also.

They seem to prefer very low speeds when grinding, like 500rpm
and never more than 5,000 RPM.

Is that for heat reasons?

Beats me. They probably don't know either. You can generate plenty
of heat at 500 rpm.
Like I said, if I ever get a screw or nail in a tire, I'll just get a
plug kit. Or take it to a nearby Just Tires. Done that too.
If I can't find a puncture, I assume it's a rim leak. But one time
they found a nail I had missed.

Tires are most important parts of vehicle, each maintaining firm contact
with surface supporting the vehicle. Each contact area is
mere sq. inches. For me, I don't want to play with damaged tire(s).
I don't want to put myself and family for possible danger due to
so called repaired tire. My driving is mostly freeway driving doing
70 mph or so. It all takes is just one accident. Even new tires can
cause an accident. I don't want to learn a lesson paying my life.

In Germany cops can impound your car if you are driving with worn
tire(s). It's pretty scary driving on Autobahn first time.

Danny D. tire repair Guru!!! Good luck driving your Bimmer on patched
tire(s).
+100
If he won't listen to me, mabee he'll listen to someone else.
He asks for advice - then won't take it.
That sounds a bit like an idiot to me - sorry but I have to call a
spade a spade.

On Thu, 10 Dec 2015 15:12:09 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 12/10/2015 11:17 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/10/2015 10:08 AM, Danny D. wrote:
The first is a cleaner (used to be MEK). You can't get a
decent bond until you remove ALL the dirt, wax, oil, crud
etc from the surface. Contamination spoils more patches than
any other fault.

Ah, MEK, Methyl-Ethyl Ketones.

Am I correct that MEK is our basic paint thinner at any box shop?


Don't overthink this.
Find a Tech service truck or similar vendor who does this all day long
and get your materials and advice from an expert.


1) Danny is well known for over thinking things.
2) Many paint thinners are "mineral spirits". Not
sure if that's same thing.
Mineral spirits and MEK are totally different materials.
Mineral spirits is closer to the right product but can have all kinds
of fraction in it that could inhibit proper vilcanization.. White gas
(coleman camp gas) is about as close to the "real thing" as he is
going to find at a big box store like Home Despot. - much better to
just get the right stuff

On 12/10/2015 4:02 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 10 Dec 2015 16:08:45 -0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

AMuzi wrote, on Thu, 10 Dec 2015 07:51:35 -0600:

The first is a cleaner (used to be MEK). You can't get a
decent bond until you remove ALL the dirt, wax, oil, crud
etc from the surface. Contamination spoils more patches than
any other fault.

Ah, MEK, Methyl-Ethyl Ketones.

This is a great help because that first stripper being MEK makes
it 2 out of the 3 tire repair fluids that are easy to come by!

Googling the hardware stores, it looks like MEK is sold as
a common paint thinner.

1. HOME DEPOT: Klean-Strip, 32 oz. Methyl Ethyl Ketone (MEK) Solvent
Model # QME71, Internet # 100210976, Store SKU # 834408
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Klean-Str...ME71/100210976

2. LOWES: Jasco Gallon Size Can Fast to Dissolve Methyl Ethyl Ketone (MEK)
(128-fl oz) Item #: 622034, Model #: GJME180
3. LOWES: Crown 1-Gallon Fast to Dissolve Methyl Ethyl Ketone
Item #: 206493, Model #: CR.MK.M.41

3. MENARDS: Sunnyside Methyl Ethyl Ketone - 1 qt
Model Number: 84732, Menards SKU: 5613803

Am I correct that MEK is our basic paint thinner at any box shop?
I would use what the patch company recommends. Tech's "Rub=O-Matic"
rubber cleaner has no MEK in it. it is basically a light naptha (pure
petroleum product)


Rema uses a water based pummice product to buff the rubber liner for
repair.
Their flamable pre-buff is almost pure N-Heptane. Their non flamable
pre-buff is Triclorethelene

The "glue" is also specific to the patch product being used. -I would
not mix one company's glue with another companies specialized patch
products.


+1
Very good advice, hope it's heeded.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Thu, 10 Dec 2015 17:17:09 -0500, wrote:

On Thu, 10 Dec 2015 18:26:46 -0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

Danny D. wrote, on Thu, 10 Dec 2015 00:30:03 +0000:

Does anyone on this newsgroup know of any commonly available substitute
for this black goopy inner liner sealer?

This seems to be the inner liner sealer goopy tar.
But I don't know if there is a box store equivalent.

$1 per ounce:
http://safetytireseal.com/sc16.html

$2 per ounce:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Tire-Patch-R...-/121309678038

http://www.lawsonproducts.com/lawson...ler/1417734.lp
http://yourtireshopsupply.com/produc...ant-16oz-re76f

I still haven't been able to figure out what this stuff is
made up of, and where I can get it at reasonable prices in
small quantities at the box stores.
It is a butyl rubber sealer containing hydro treated heavy parafinic
petroleum distilates, carbon black, di(benzothiazol-2-yl) disulphide,
and zinc oxide along with butyl rubber resin.

It is made for the job, and you would be far better off not using
anything (the way it has been done for many years by many tire repair
professionals) than using something untied and unproven in it's place.
Like I said befo "Dont screw with tire repairs" "It's only your
life riding on that repair"

Either do it right, or get it done.
Criminal negligence charges stay with you for life if you happen to
survive and someone else doesn't


He's only trying to plug a hole the "right way." Nothing wrong with
that. I think it's a bit impractical, but that's just my opinion.
And I don't agree with your "criminal negligence charges" for plugging
a tire. A tire plug is a simple repair. Might as well say you can't
work on your suspension or gas tank or electrical system.

Vic Smith wrote, on Thu, 10 Dec 2015 12:44:01 -0600:

Beats me. They probably don't know either. You can generate plenty
of heat at 500 rpm.
Like I said, if I ever get a screw or nail in a tire, I'll just get a
plug kit. Or take it to a nearby Just Tires. Done that too.
If I can't find a puncture, I assume it's a rim leak. But one time
they found a nail I had missed.

The point here is to learn.

It's sort of like a biology lab.

Nobody forces you to cut open a pig, but, we all cut open pigs and
frogs and shrarks to study them.

That's sort of why I'm doing this. (The tire is ruined already anyway,
because I drove on it for about a mile, assuming, wrongly, that it
still had enough air.)

Today I went to a few shops but I had to do other errands.

So far I've second sourced the first two of the three fluids.
1. Inner liner solvent === MEK paint thinner
2. Patchplug vulcanizing cement === available everywhere
3. Inner liner sealer === need to find a source for this tar

I was gonna go to Harbor Freight to see if they have the carbide bit,
which is, I think, the most critical tool for doing the job right.

Apparently the carbide bit is to smooth the broken steel belts.
Am I correct in that being the purpose of the fluted carbide bit?

On 12/10/2015 4:57 PM, Tekkie® wrote:


Places around me beat tire rack prices any day of the week. I inquired about
their installation places. 4 of 4 were more expensive than the regular
dealers, just for fitting. The fourth I knew and had the reputation of
crappy work, which I observed on several occasions. No thanks.


If you don't make any money on the tire sale you have to keep the lights
on doing the mounting.

Saving a few bucks is good, but it can be false economy at times. Our
town is fortunate to have a good family owned tire dealer that has fair
prices and incredible service. I know many customers that won't go
anyplace else and have a story about how Dennis helped them out with a
tire problem.

clare wrote, on Thu, 10 Dec 2015 17:22:36 -0500:

If he won't listen to me, mabee he'll listen to someone else.
He asks for advice - then won't take it.
That sounds a bit like an idiot to me - sorry but I have to call a
spade a spade.

I think you totally missed the point.
The tire is already ruined because I drove on it.
Nothing I do to it will ruin it any more.

However, I can experiment on this tire, so that I can see how the
entire patch process works.

Remember what this group is all about.
It's not a ladies' knitting group you know.

So, we're not afraid to wind our own garage door springs.
We're not afraid to replace our own struts.
And, we're not afraid to patch our tires correctly.

You seem to know a lot, which means that you know the average fool
is too stupid to patch their tires correctly.

But, the rest of us aren't average fools! (pun intended).

At this point, I'm working on *what* exactly the carbide bit does.
This bit looks nothing like the spiral reamer that comes with the
el cheapo outside plug kits.

The carbide bit, I think, is supposed to smooth the sharp edges
of the cut belts.

Do you concur?
Or is there a *different* reason for the carbide bit?

clare wrote, on Thu, 10 Dec 2015 17:09:54 -0500:

It aint MEK.,

Darn. Someone said it was MEK.

That was good to hear because MEK is easy to come by.
But, if it's not MEK, then we have to start anew to figure out what
it is that we can find in a common hardware store.

and yes, low speed is required because if you burn the
rubber the tire is FUBAR.

Makes sense not to want to melt the rubber.
How does 500 RPM sound for speed?

Best thing for "grinding" the liner is a
prep disk on a low speed die grinder or air drill..

I have seen those half-round grinding disks which seem like a nice
thing to have in my toolbox for cleaning the inside of the tire.

Use a PROPER PREBUFF cleaner, or a pure hydrocarbon solvent like napyha ,
white gas, or even TRicor. (all components of the major tire repair
companies' pre-buff cleaners).

Googling to see the box store equivalents, it seems that Naptha isn't
sold at Home Depot, but it is sold at Lowes:

LOWES: Crown 1-Gallon Slow to Dissolve Naphtha
Item #: 206531 | Model #: CR.VM.M.41
http://www.lowes.com/pd_206531-34228...ductId=3024053

Are you sure the prebuff solvent is naptha, and not MEK?

In a pinch, use tire patch glue ans scrape it off with a razor blade.

Interesting idea!

This makes sense, especially since you already have the glue on hand,
and, as noted by someone, the remainder of the glue will likely dry
well before you ever get to use it again, so, you may as well use
it up.

On Thu, 10 Dec 2015 17:19:10 -0500, Tekkie®
wrote:

Ashton Crusher posted for all of us...


I think a lot of these "proper ways" are fine but are often simply
driven by lawsuits. Some gas station repaired a flat tire, the guy
then has an accident and blames the repair and gets paid "experts" to
testify it was all because of that improperly done repair. No
evidence that a "proper repair" would have changed anything of course.
The same reason some tire places insist the new tires HAVE to go on
the rear of the car leaving you with half worn out front tires on your
FWD car at the start of snow season.


So I guess the research the tire co's means nothing to you.


Depends on the research. They have a financial interest in anything
that results in them selling more tires in total or more tires then
the competition. Competing is hard, getting the gvt to mandate
something stupid so you can make more money just takes a few lobbyists
and greasing some palms.

Tekkie® wrote, on Thu, 10 Dec 2015 17:19:10 -0500:

So I guess the research the tire co's means nothing to you.

I know this was directed at someone else, but, let's remind ourselves
this isn't the ladies' knitting group.

We're here to learn how to repair things, and, in this case, what
we want to learn is the proper way for a homeowner to repair a
car tire that has a puncture wound.

So far, we have learned a *lot* (at least "I" have), as I have
read the wrong way and the right way to repair the tires.

The only thing I don't have are the 5 tools and the 3 fluids, so,
my quest right now is simply to find homeowner-style alternatives.

One could rightly say just buy the right tools & fluids, but,
you have to realize that we're only going to repair one tire
every few years, so, we really need to be smarter than that.

Sure, it's *easy* to buy exactly the professional tools, but, if
we're smart, we can buy the fluids and tools and be able to use
them for other things.

For example, of the three fluids, we seem to know at this point:
1. Pre-buff solvent = seems to either be Naptha or MEK
2. Vulcanizing cement = easy to come by almost anywhere
3. Inner liner sealer = this we don't know what it's made of yet

Of the 5 tools, we can probably make use of existing tools:
a. Carbide reamer
b. Pre-buff half-moon scraper
c. Half-round buffing wheel
d. Stitcher wheel

If you know of alternative sources in the home box office for
any of these tools and fluids, that's the stage I'm currently
at now.

Whatever you impart will benefit all of us, because I would expect
anyone at home who can mount and dismount and balance a tire to
be able to also patch the repair from the inside.

clare wrote, on Thu, 10 Dec 2015 16:24:36 -0500:

Why would you? It's only YOUR LIFE riding on that tire, and the lives
of everybody you may hit if the tire blows on the road. DO NOT screw
around with tire , brake, or steering repairs. A criminal negligence
charge will stay with you for a lifetime even if you survive.

This isn't the ladies' knitting group.
Nothing has been patched yet.
This is a *discussion*.

What we're seeking is a second source for the fluids used in tire
repair. If you think that these fluids are *super special*, then
you have a different opinion than I do.

I *assume* (yes, I know) that these three fluids are commonly available.
I'm just trying to find out *what* they are.

You would probably say "just buy the professional stuff" and that *might*
actually be the best answer. But, oftentimes the best answer, for a
homeowner, is to use the same fluid, but packaged for the homeowner.

For example, if the pre-buff fluid is either MEK or Naptha (as has
been opined so far), both are easily available at Lowes.

The sealer is the trickier fluid to figure out what it is, since
that is the fluid that protects the inner seal.

That "most critical" fluid has only become anything resembling common
in the last decade or so. It was virtually unheard of when I was
working as a mechanic and fixing tires - and I'd venture to guess
better than 90% of tire repair shops still don't use it - barticularly
with a "mushroom" patch.

This is interesting. You have far more experience than I do, so I
greatly appreciate your advice. Today I stopped off at Costco to
see what they use, and they showed me a can of their stuff, which
they use as part of the final repair. But I don't know what other
shops use.

The trick now is to figure out *what* that tar-like substance is
made up of, to see if we can find a second source in the home box
stores.

clare wrote, on Thu, 10 Dec 2015 16:26:28 -0500:

And that is what the "scraping" is for - to expose raw clean surface
for gluing..

The old trick of applying glue, lighting it with a match, then
scraping off the remains before applying more glue and the patch did
the same thing.

This is an interesting trick.

Seems to me, the goal of the pre-buff solvent is to dissolve a thin
skin of the inner liner, so that we're down to a different layer of
rubber for the patch to adhere to.

What I like about this trick is that it negates the need for the
pre-buff solution, although if the pre-buff solution is Naptha or MEK,
it's easy to come by in the home box stores.

So, the real trick will be to find a substitute for the final inner
liner sealer.

On Thu, 10 Dec 2015 17:19:10 -0500, Tekkie®
wrote:

Ashton Crusher posted for all of us...


I think a lot of these "proper ways" are fine but are often simply
driven by lawsuits. Some gas station repaired a flat tire, the guy
then has an accident and blames the repair and gets paid "experts" to
testify it was all because of that improperly done repair. No
evidence that a "proper repair" would have changed anything of course.
The same reason some tire places insist the new tires HAVE to go on
the rear of the car leaving you with half worn out front tires on your
FWD car at the start of snow season.


So I guess the research the tire co's means nothing to you.
Ashton is about the only guy cheaper and less intelligent than
DannyBoy on this group. I plonked him a long time ago so only see his
crap when someone answers him.

clare wrote, on Thu, 10 Dec 2015 17:02:14 -0500:

I would use what the patch company recommends. Tech's "Rub=O-Matic"
rubber cleaner has no MEK in it. it is basically a light naptha (pure
petroleum product)

Naptha is easy to come by, so, that would be good news.

Their flamable pre-buff is almost pure N-Heptane.
Their non flamable pre-buff is Triclorethelene

Heptane should also be easy to come by, so that would be good news.

The "glue" is also specific to the patch product being used. -I would
not mix one company's glue with another companies specialized patch
products.

Interestingly, one of the videos I posted said to not coat the stem
of the patchplug with the glue. The other one didn't mention whether
or not the stem (near the head of the patchplug) should be coated.

Do you lean toward putting the cement on the stem of the patchplug?

AMuzi wrote, on Thu, 10 Dec 2015 10:17:26 -0600:

Don't overthink this.
Find a Tech service truck or similar vendor who does this
all day long and get your materials and advice from an expert.

This isn't the ladies' knitting group.
This is a repair and tech group.

If we don't know the exact chemicals used in the three fluids,
then we have no business being *on* this newsgroup.

Likewise, if we don't know the purpose of the five tools used
in a decent patch repair, then we can't call ourselves all that
knowledgeable.

None of us are born with this knowledge, but, those of you with
experience can help impart your knowledge on the rest of us.

clare wrote, on Thu, 10 Dec 2015 17:25:31 -0500:

Mineral spirits and MEK are totally different materials.
Mineral spirits is closer to the right product but can have all kinds
of fraction in it that could inhibit proper vilcanization.. White gas
(coleman camp gas) is about as close to the "real thing" as he is
going to find at a big box store like Home Despot. - much better to
just get the right stuff

I think naptha is fine.

Lowes has it by the gallon.

What I'm trying to source now is that final goopy tar sealant.

Any ideas what it's made up of?