CRNG wrote, on Sat, 28 Jun 2014 19:28:54 -0500:

Average *in house* water usage is 50 gal/day/person. That is without
any conservation. That covers washing, cooking, toilets and all other
activities that occur in the house.

That means this 500 gallon spare tank "could" last someone ten days:
https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5571/1...13b6ae13_b.jpg

Based on the very helpful suggestions in this thread, we're planning
on tying that 100 pound plastic tank in a pickup or trailer.

The key question is what kind of pickup/trailer can haul the
weight that we will have access to.

Since the hints here are to fill it to the brim, the tank has
the number 685 on it, so, we assume it holds 685 gallons max:
https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3847/1...747e92b5_b.jpg

Roughly, 685 gallons x 8 pounds ~= 5,500 pounds, plus another
hundred pounds for the tank itself, is about 2-1/2 tons.

So, we need to find a truck (or trailer) that can haul 2.5 tons
up a windy road from this brand new fire hydrant:
https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3867/1...cd625d51_b.jpg

Any suggestions on the pickup truck given those new numbers?

On 7/1/2014 12:24 AM, DannyD. wrote:
Roughly, 685 gallons x 8 pounds ~= 5,500 pounds, plus another
hundred pounds for the tank itself, is about 2-1/2 tons.

So, we need to find a truck (or trailer) that can haul 2.5 tons
up a windy road from this brand new fire hydrant:
https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3867/1...cd625d51_b.jpg

Any suggestions on the pickup truck given those new numbers?


Rented, comes to mind. I predict failures of
transmissions, gear boxes, and all other kinds
of things.

Interesting. That's a dry pipe hydrant. I thought
you were / are in California? Does it get cold and
freeze in the winter? North part of the state?

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 6/30/2014 11:38 PM, DannyD. wrote:
Stormin Mormon wrote, on Sun, 29 Jun 2014 15:07:43 -0400:

Is the other end of the rope tied onto a float?

Yes. This is not "my" tank, it's a neighbor's tank, but we looked
at his tank today and realized he was being shorted by 1,000 gallons,
so, we lifted the float, and his tank started gushing out.

Here's the lifted float:
https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2927/1...a6655fcc_b.jpg

And, here's the water flow (way better than mine!):
https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5480/1...0794c170_c.jpg

Compare that float and water flow with this neighbor's float:
https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3922/1...d8bfb91b_b.jpg

And, when we lifted his float, this was the water flow:
https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2917/1...1a6279c6_c.jpg

Of course, lifting the float on this 20K gallon cistern didn't do
anything, so, we found out that one residence water supply had
a problem for firefighting (their water was the dribbling float):
https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3911/1...987f1802_c.jpg

Seeing as how you're having trouble with flow,
duration, and interruption. Do you maybe have
trouble with your prostate?


--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

Stormin Mormon wrote, on Tue, 01 Jul 2014 07:42:20 -0400:

Interesting. That's a dry pipe hydrant. I thought
you were / are in California? Does it get cold and
freeze in the winter? North part of the state?

I don't know what you mean by a "dry pipe hydrant", so,
googling for that term, Wikipedia says it's a non-pressurized
hydrant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_hydrant).

But this "Guide to planning & installing dry hydrants"
http://dnr.wi.gov/topic/forestmanage...pub/fr-044.pdf
implies that it's for sucking water out of a lake or pond.

I can call the San Jose Water Company to be sure, but,
what do you mean by a dry hydrant (and how can you tell
just by looking at the photo)?
https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3867/1...cd625d51_b.jpg

Stormin Mormon wrote, on Tue, 01 Jul 2014 07:44:08 -0400:

Seeing as how you're having trouble with flow,
duration, and interruption. Do you maybe have
trouble with your prostate?

Let's not get into that!

Armed with the great information in this thread, we were
able to garner another 1,000 gallons of water simply by
lifting the floats in two neighbor's water tanks!
https://www.flickr.com/photos/98287134@N02/14546837292/

Here's the water flow from the newer home construction into
the third of three 5000 gallon tanks after lifting the float:
https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5480/1...0794c170_c.jpg

By way of contrast, here's the flow into the first of five
5,000 gallon tanks at another residence after doing the same:
https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5480/1...0794c170_c.jpg

Thanks for all your advice, we're coming up with an action plan
which will (a) inspect all the tanks, (b) test the fire systems,
and (c) allow us to truck water up the hills when we run out.

DannyD. wrote, on Tue, 01 Jul 2014 12:53:38 +0000:

Here's the water flow from the newer home construction into
the third of three 5000 gallon tanks after lifting the float:
https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5480/1...0794c170_c.jpg

By way of contrast, here's the flow into the first of five
5,000 gallon tanks at another residence after doing the same:
https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5480/1...0794c170_c.jpg

Ooops. Wrong picture for that second one.

Here's (a repeat of) the newer neighbor's flow:
https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5480/1...0794c170_c.jpg

And here's the older neighbor's flow:
https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2917/1...1a6279c6_c.jpg

On 7/1/2014 8:45 AM, DannyD. wrote:
Stormin Mormon wrote, on Tue, 01 Jul 2014 07:42:20 -0400:

Interesting. That's a dry pipe hydrant. I thought
you were / are in California? Does it get cold and
freeze in the winter? North part of the state?

I don't know what you mean by a "dry pipe hydrant", so,
googling for that term, Wikipedia says it's a non-pressurized
hydrant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_hydrant).
CY: The red one at top is dry pipe. Down a ways, the green one (my color
vision is terrible) in the Phillipines is wet pipe.


But this "Guide to planning & installing dry hydrants"
http://dnr.wi.gov/topic/forestmanage...pub/fr-044.pdf
implies that it's for sucking water out of a lake or pond.

CY: Not what I meant.

I can call the San Jose Water Company to be sure, but,
what do you mean by a dry hydrant (and how can you tell
just by looking at the photo)?
https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3867/1...cd625d51_b.jpg

Well, actually neither of those was what I meant. In cold
climates like NYS where I live, the fire hydrants use a long controlling
shaft. The water pipe and valve are four or five
feet below ground. When the FD turns the five pointed lug
ON TOP, it opens the valve which is about four feet below
ground. When the FD turns off the hydrant, a small valve
opens at the bottom. The water in the barrel drains into
a bit of gravel at the bottom. That way, the barrel does
not freeze solid. Which would prevent use, or split the
pipe due to freezing and expanding.

CY: Dry pipe hydrants have a controlling lug on top. Wet
pipe hydrants have the lug opposite the cap and threads.
Wet hydrants are opened by turning a lug on the SIDE of
the barrel.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 7/1/2014 8:53 AM, DannyD. wrote:
Armed with the great information in this thread, we were
able to garner another 1,000 gallons of water simply by
lifting the floats in two neighbor's water tanks!
https://www.flickr.com/photos/98287134@N02/14546837292/

Here's the water flow from the newer home construction into
the third of three 5000 gallon tanks after lifting the float:
https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5480/1...0794c170_c.jpg

By way of contrast, here's the flow into the first of five
5,000 gallon tanks at another residence after doing the same:
https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5480/1...0794c170_c.jpg

Thanks for all your advice, we're coming up with an action plan
which will (a) inspect all the tanks, (b) test the fire systems,
and (c) allow us to truck water up the hills when we run out.


Now, that's good news. Perhaps the folks who have
good wells can and will share with others. I think
it's a very wise idea to briefly test the fire
department connections. Best to find a problem
NOW, not during a crisis.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

In ,
DannyD. typed:

We haven't had rain in a year or so, and some of my neighbor's wells
are running
dry. They asked me to figure out an efficient way to get water to
them because
the bulk water delivery companies are really lousy on service & costs.
. . . . ,
The San Jose Water Company sells water out of the fire hydrants at
$2.70 per
CCF (i.e., $2.71 per 748 gallons) after we rent a "portable meter",
either a 1-inch portable meter (output is a male 3/4-inch garden hose
thread) at $29.48/month, or a 3-inch portable meter (output is a male
2-1/2 inch firehose
thread) at $176.98 a month.
. . . . ,
Any other helpful suggestions for me to provide to the neighbors for
trucking
in potable water during the drought?

I haven't read all of the replies so far, and I have no experience in doing
something like this. But these are some quick thoughts or ideas that come to
my mind.

Would the water company require a meter if they were pumping the water into
a fixed size tank or container -- such as a 55-gallon drum? Meter or no
meter, if they are pumping the water into a 55 gallon drum, it seems like
they could just charge you for the 55 gallons and call it a day. So, if
they will do that, you could skip all of the meter cost issues. Hopefully
the water company will go for that.

How much do clean empty 55 gallon drums cost? I don't know. But water
weighs 8.3 pounds per gallon, so a 55 gallon drum would weigh about 457
pounds. Two of them in a 1/2 ton pickup truck should be no problem. To
transport 1,000 gallons would take about twenty 55-gallon drums. That's 10
five-mile trips via pickup truck with two drums per trip.

Any chance that you could hook up a deal with a local (possibly volunteer)
fire department? I don't know how many gallons a typical fire department
pumper truck holds, but I know that most can pump 500 to 1000 gallons a
minute if needed, so I assume that they can hold more than 1000 gallons.
Maybe have them do a training exercise for newer firefighters on the
operation and use of the pumper trucks and give them a significant donation
for doing that.

Those are just my quick thoughts.

On Tuesday, July 1, 2014 1:10:56 PM UTC-4, TomR wrote:
In ,

DannyD. typed:



We haven't had rain in a year or so, and some of my neighbor's wells

are running

dry. They asked me to figure out an efficient way to get water to

them because

the bulk water delivery companies are really lousy on service & costs.

. . . . ,

The San Jose Water Company sells water out of the fire hydrants at

$2.70 per

CCF (i.e., $2.71 per 748 gallons) after we rent a "portable meter",

either a 1-inch portable meter (output is a male 3/4-inch garden hose

thread) at $29.48/month, or a 3-inch portable meter (output is a male

2-1/2 inch firehose

thread) at $176.98 a month.

. . . . ,

Any other helpful suggestions for me to provide to the neighbors for

trucking

in potable water during the drought?



I haven't read all of the replies so far, and I have no experience in doing

something like this. But these are some quick thoughts or ideas that come to

my mind.



Would the water company require a meter if they were pumping the water into

a fixed size tank or container -- such as a 55-gallon drum? Meter or no

meter, if they are pumping the water into a 55 gallon drum, it seems like

they could just charge you for the 55 gallons and call it a day. So, if

they will do that, you could skip all of the meter cost issues. Hopefully

the water company will go for that.



How much do clean empty 55 gallon drums cost? I don't know. But water

weighs 8.3 pounds per gallon, so a 55 gallon drum would weigh about 457

pounds. Two of them in a 1/2 ton pickup truck should be no problem. To

transport 1,000 gallons would take about twenty 55-gallon drums. That's 10

five-mile trips via pickup truck with two drums per trip.



Any chance that you could hook up a deal with a local (possibly volunteer)

fire department? I don't know how many gallons a typical fire department

pumper truck holds, but I know that most can pump 500 to 1000 gallons a

minute if needed, so I assume that they can hold more than 1000 gallons.

Maybe have them do a training exercise for newer firefighters on the

operation and use of the pumper trucks and give them a significant donation

for doing that.




Just yesterday I took a buddy of mine to buy 2 used 55 gallon drums, They wouldnt fit in his vehicle. 25 bucks for two.....

He bought 2 about 10 years ago and bought 2 new ones since one had cracked and leaked.

last time they were 2 for 20 bucks.

hauling water will become old, its time to drill a new well, go way deeper so this problem wouldnt occur again.

drillers drill brand new wells, rather than make existing well deeper....

Stormin Mormon wrote, on Tue, 01 Jul 2014 09:04:07 -0400:

Now, that's good news. Perhaps the folks who have
good wells can and will share with others. I think
it's a very wise idea to briefly test the fire
department connections. Best to find a problem
NOW, not during a crisis.

I spoke to Calfire who said they would be perfectly happy
to come to our homeowners meeting and discuss fire protection
during this time of drought.

We meet every few months so I sent that in to the person
setting up the homeowners meetings.

TomR wrote, on Tue, 01 Jul 2014 13:10:56 -0400:

Any chance that you could hook up a deal with a local (possibly volunteer)
fire department? I don't know how many gallons a typical fire department
pumper truck holds, but I know that most can pump 500 to 1000 gallons a
minute if needed, so I assume that they can hold more than 1000 gallons.
Maybe have them do a training exercise for newer firefighters on the
operation and use of the pumper trucks and give them a significant donation
for doing that.

The local Calfire trucks are pretty small. They hold 500 gallons and 700
gallons. What Calfire told me was they almost always are attended by
water tenders anywhere they go.

But, they said they don't ever put water in someone's tank unless
they sucked it out. Whatever they use, they say they replace, but,
they don't put it in if they didn't use it (liabilities they said).

Also, two different guys said different things regarding the wharf
hydrants at every residence. One said they almost never use them,
while the superior said they use them a lot. So, I'm not sure if
they even use them, because they prefer their water tenders, but,
they did say the pressure is low coming out of the wharf hydrants.

As for the training, they said they'd come out and talk to us at
our homeowners meetings, which we have sporadically.

bob haller wrote, on Tue, 01 Jul 2014 10:19:08 -0700:

drillers drill brand new wells, rather than make existing well deeper....

Why?

On 7/1/2014 5:46 PM, DannyD. wrote:
I spoke to Calfire who said they would be perfectly happy
to come to our homeowners meeting and discuss fire protection
during this time of drought.

We meet every few months so I sent that in to the person
setting up the homeowners meetings.


I've seen some Youtube videos of forest fires in
CA, and they are terrifying, even in NYS in my
living room. Please invite everyone, only 10% will
attend, and 5% will pay much attention.

I suspect the FD water is "non potable" since it's
not food grade tanks, inspected, etc.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 7/1/2014 5:50 PM, DannyD. wrote:
Also, two different guys said different things regarding the wharf
hydrants at every residence. One said they almost never use them,
while the superior said they use them a lot. So, I'm not sure if
they even use them, because they prefer their water tenders, but,
they did say the pressure is low coming out of the wharf hydrants.

As for the training, they said they'd come out and talk to us at
our homeowners meetings, which we have sporadically.


I suspect the wharfs are gravity feed from the
tank, nearly zero PSIG. Compared to mains on
real hydrants. Still, it may some day be the
only water to be had.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On Tuesday, July 1, 2014 5:50:53 PM UTC-4, DannyD. wrote:
bob haller wrote, on Tue, 01 Jul 2014 10:19:08 -0700:



drillers drill brand new wells, rather than make existing well deeper....



Why?

I was told the old wells sides often collapse if they attempt to make them deeper. Brand new holes are said to be much better

On Tue, 1 Jul 2014 21:50:53 +0000 (UTC), "DannyD."
wrote in

bob haller wrote, on Tue, 01 Jul 2014 10:19:08 -0700:

drillers drill brand new wells, rather than make existing well deeper....

Why?

My *guess* is that to drill deeper via an existing well, the "deeper"
part will have to be a smaller diameter than the pre-existing well
casing. For example, if you want a new well with a 6" o.d. casing,
you probably have to drill with a 6.5" bit. If you want to deepen a
6" well, you can't use the 6.5" bit. You have to use something smaller
that will fit in the existing 6" pipe.
--
Web based forums are like subscribing to 10 different newspapers
and having to visit 10 different news stands to pickup each one.
Email list-server groups and USENET are like having all of those
newspapers delivered to your door every morning.

Stormin Mormon wrote, on Tue, 01 Jul 2014 20:03:04 -0400:

I suspect the FD water is "non potable" since it's
not food grade tanks, inspected, etc.

Well, I did ask them about that, and they said they replace
any water that they use from our tanks or pools.

So, I would "think" it's potable.

They say more than one "water tender" accompanies them
everywhere they go, if possible, so, most of the water
they use is from those tenders.

They didn't know where the tenders get their water
since they said they float and are not attached to
any one fire department.

CRNG wrote, on Wed, 02 Jul 2014 06:59:30 -0500:

My *guess* is that to drill deeper via an existing well, the "deeper"
part will have to be a smaller diameter than the pre-existing well

That makes sense.

I know I have two wells, where the new well is a few hundred feet
from the old well.

So, in my case, they certainly drilled a separate well (but both
are producing water, albeit slowly).

Stormin Mormon wrote, on Tue, 01 Jul 2014 20:04:23 -0400:

I suspect the wharfs are gravity feed from the
tank, nearly zero PSIG. Compared to mains on
real hydrants. Still, it may some day be the
only water to be had.

Yes. They're all gravity fed. There's really no other way
because you can't depend on electricity in a fire anyway.

Mine is about 14 feet below the bottom of the tanks, so,
that's roughly about 1/2 an atmosphere, which is about
7 or 8 psi (which doesn't sound like much to me).

Luckily, the FD can *pump* that, but they told me at
the station they prefer the pool anyway, so, in "my"
case, they'd use the pool instead (which is more than
ten times larger anyway).

On 7/2/2014 10:01 AM, DannyD. wrote:
Stormin Mormon wrote, on Tue, 01 Jul 2014 20:03:04 -0400:

I suspect the FD water is "non potable" since it's
not food grade tanks, inspected, etc.

Well, I did ask them about that, and they said they replace
any water that they use from our tanks or pools.

So, I would "think" it's potable.

They say more than one "water tender" accompanies them
everywhere they go, if possible, so, most of the water
they use is from those tenders.

They didn't know where the tenders get their water
since they said they float and are not attached to
any one fire department.

Most likely from the muni hydrants. Quick and easy.
Problem is that hydrant water is often rusty,
and it's "possible" the tenders (we call em tankers
in the east) are filled with pond water after a
pond drafting operation.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
...
On 7/2/2014 10:01 AM, DannyD. wrote:
Stormin Mormon wrote, on Tue, 01 Jul 2014 20:03:04 -0400:

I suspect the FD water is "non potable" since it's
not food grade tanks, inspected, etc.

Well, I did ask them about that, and they said they replace
any water that they use from our tanks or pools.

So, I would "think" it's potable.

They say more than one "water tender" accompanies them
everywhere they go, if possible, so, most of the water
they use is from those tenders.

They didn't know where the tenders get their water
since they said they float and are not attached to
any one fire department.

Most likely from the muni hydrants. Quick and easy.
Problem is that hydrant water is often rusty,
and it's "possible" the tenders (we call em tankers
in the east) are filled with pond water after a
pond drafting operation.


don't discount the possibility that "that is our story and we are sticking
to it".

By way of comparison, I just got a quote from this water company
for $225 to $250 for 3,800 gallons from a stainless steel truck:
Bay Area Water Trucking, 408-683-0500

So, for example, to fill my pool would take at least ten
truckloads, or about $2,500.

On Fri, 4 Jul 2014 03:53:18 +0000 (UTC), "DannyD."
wrote in

By way of comparison, I just got a quote from this water company
for $225 to $250 for 3,800 gallons from a stainless steel truck:
Bay Area Water Trucking, 408-683-0500

So, for example, to fill my pool would take at least ten
truckloads, or about $2,500.

That's about $60/1k gallons. That seems like a lot.
--
Web based forums are like subscribing to 10 different newspapers
and having to visit 10 different news stands to pickup each one.
Email list-server groups and USENET are like having all of those
newspapers delivered to your door every morning.

On 7/3/2014 11:53 PM, DannyD. wrote:
By way of comparison, I just got a quote from this water company
for $225 to $250 for 3,800 gallons from a stainless steel truck:
Bay Area Water Trucking, 408-683-0500

So, for example, to fill my pool would take at least ten
truckloads, or about $2,500.

Of course, doing your own hauling figures free
labor. I'd be careful doing water hauling for
neighbors, too easy to establish a dependance
relationship.



--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

In ,
DannyD. typed:
By way of comparison, I just got a quote from this water company
for $225 to $250 for 3,800 gallons from a stainless steel truck:
Bay Area Water Trucking, 408-683-0500

Well, if I am not mistaken, that seems to be the answer to your original
question -- how to truck 1,000 gallons of potable water to a residence.

For 250 bucks you can get almost 4 times the original 1,000 gallons you were
looking for -- and that's the delivered price. So, no meters to buy or
rent, no tanks to buy, no trucks or trailers to rent, etc. If your
neighbors asked you to figure this out, it looks like you just did that for
them.

My vote would be, call Bay Area Water Trucking, write the check, and it's
over.

So, for example, to fill my pool would take at least ten
truckloads, or about $2,500.

That's a different question -- how to get 38,000 gallons delivered to fill
your pool.

"TomR" wrote in message
...
In ,
DannyD. typed:
By way of comparison, I just got a quote from this water company
for $225 to $250 for 3,800 gallons from a stainless steel truck:
Bay Area Water Trucking, 408-683-0500

Well, if I am not mistaken, that seems to be the answer to your original
question -- how to truck 1,000 gallons of potable water to a residence.

For 250 bucks you can get almost 4 times the original 1,000 gallons you
were looking for -- and that's the delivered price. So, no meters to buy
or rent, no tanks to buy, no trucks or trailers to rent, etc. If your
neighbors asked you to figure this out, it looks like you just did that
for them.

My vote would be, call Bay Area Water Trucking, write the check, and it's
over.

So, for example, to fill my pool would take at least ten
truckloads, or about $2,500.

That's a different question -- how to get 38,000 gallons delivered to fill
your pool.

wouldn't the answer to that question involve waiting for it to rain?

On Friday, July 4, 2014 11:10:01 AM UTC-4, TomR wrote:
In ,

DannyD. typed:

By way of comparison, I just got a quote from this water company

for $225 to $250 for 3,800 gallons from a stainless steel truck:

Bay Area Water Trucking, 408-683-0500



Well, if I am not mistaken, that seems to be the answer to your original

question -- how to truck 1,000 gallons of potable water to a residence.



For 250 bucks you can get almost 4 times the original 1,000 gallons you were

looking for -- and that's the delivered price. So, no meters to buy or

rent, no tanks to buy, no trucks or trailers to rent, etc. If your

neighbors asked you to figure this out, it looks like you just did that for

them.



My vote would be, call Bay Area Water Trucking, write the check, and it's

over.



In fairness to Danny, from the original post, it's obvious it's not
a one time, 1000 gallon problem. CA is in a long term drought, his wells
are running dry and so are his neighbors. The idea was to see if they
could come up with some lower cost solution to span months.




So, for example, to fill my pool would take at least ten

truckloads, or about $2,500.



That's a different question -- how to get 38,000 gallons delivered to fill

your pool.

In ,
trader_4 typed:
On Friday, July 4, 2014 11:10:01 AM UTC-4, TomR wrote:
In ,

DannyD. typed:
By way of comparison, I just got a quote from this water company
for $225 to $250 for 3,800 gallons from a stainless steel truck:
Bay Area Water Trucking, 408-683-0500

Well, if I am not mistaken, that seems to be the answer to your
original question -- how to truck 1,000 gallons of potable water to a
residence.

For 250 bucks you can get almost 4 times the original 1,000 gallons
you were looking for -- and that's the delivered price. So, no meters to
buy
or rent, no tanks to buy, no trucks or trailers to rent, etc. If your
neighbors asked you to figure this out, it looks like you just did
that for them.

My vote would be, call Bay Area Water Trucking, write the check, and
it's over.

In fairness to Danny, from the original post, it's obvious it's not
a one time, 1000 gallon problem. CA is in a long term drought, his
wells are running dry and so are his neighbors. The idea was to see
if they could come up with some lower cost solution to span months.

Yes, but he was trying to figure out the best plan or solution for each
1,000 gallons of water that they need to get up to their location. At $250
for each 3,800 gallon transport, that's way less than any of the other
options that he was looking at, and it involves virtually no labor or
rentals or anything else on their part. At $250 per 3,800 gallon trip,
that's even less than the cost for them to just rent a tank truck and then
they would have to find a commercially licensed driver to drive the rental
truck, do the pumping and metering, etc. I think that he originally thought
that it would cost a lot more than $250 to even get just 1,000 gallons up to
them. So, to me, $250 total for each 3,800 gallon delivery sounds like the
easiest and cheapest option that any of us has come up with. It certainly
beats my "buy 55-gallon drums and make 10 trips of 2 drums at a time in a
pickup truck" idea; or my get a fire truck idea, etc.

I think he found his best option, and that's what his neighbors apparently
asked him to do.

On Friday, July 4, 2014 1:19:45 PM UTC-4, TomR wrote:
In ,

trader_4 typed:

On Friday, July 4, 2014 11:10:01 AM UTC-4, TomR wrote:

In ,



DannyD. typed:

By way of comparison, I just got a quote from this water company

for $225 to $250 for 3,800 gallons from a stainless steel truck:

Bay Area Water Trucking, 408-683-0500



Well, if I am not mistaken, that seems to be the answer to your

original question -- how to truck 1,000 gallons of potable water to a

residence.



For 250 bucks you can get almost 4 times the original 1,000 gallons

you were looking for -- and that's the delivered price. So, no meters to

buy

or rent, no tanks to buy, no trucks or trailers to rent, etc. If your

neighbors asked you to figure this out, it looks like you just did

that for them.



My vote would be, call Bay Area Water Trucking, write the check, and

it's over.



In fairness to Danny, from the original post, it's obvious it's not

a one time, 1000 gallon problem. CA is in a long term drought, his

wells are running dry and so are his neighbors. The idea was to see

if they could come up with some lower cost solution to span months.



Yes, but he was trying to figure out the best plan or solution for each

1,000 gallons of water that they need to get up to their location. At $250

for each 3,800 gallon transport, that's way less than any of the other

options that he was looking at, and it involves virtually no labor or

rentals or anything else on their part. At $250 per 3,800 gallon trip,

that's even less than the cost for them to just rent a tank truck and then

they would have to find a commercially licensed driver to drive the rental

truck, do the pumping and metering, etc.

He said that with a 1000 gallon tank, they could rent a truck and do
it without a CDL. I don't see how it's less than the cost of a truck.
I don't remember the numbers, but it seems the truck should be $250 for
a day. You could then make many trips to many houses and I would think
it would net out to a lot less than $250 per house. The water itself didn't
cost much, as I recall.

I guess it also depends on how many folks he has in on this, and
how large their tanks are. If he has enough folks and they have big
tanks, eg 5,000 gallons, which it sounded like they do, then renting
a truck could be cheap. You just keep the truck busy all day,
fill a lot of tanks up. But the flip side of that is somebody still
has to do the work. And IDK how long the water lasts before it has
to be done again, etc. You definitely avoid a lot of problems by paying
for the delivery.



I think that he originally thought

that it would cost a lot more than $250 to even get just 1,000 gallons up to

them. So, to me, $250 total for each 3,800 gallon delivery sounds like the

easiest and cheapest option that any of us has come up with. It certainly

beats my "buy 55-gallon drums and make 10 trips of 2 drums at a time in a

pickup truck" idea; or my get a fire truck idea, etc.



I didn't follow the whole thing. Did he try the local fire dept? A lot
of times when there are emergencies like this, they will help out. I
guess it depends on how many people there are, how long, etc. If it's
not that many people, they might be willing to do something.

Or, he could go to the municipal govt. They might have eqpt or be willing
to work to come up with a solution. Another factor he might want to
consider is getting something in place soon. If enough wells go dry,
that water truck might be fully booked, rates might go up, etc.




I think he found his best option, and that's what his neighbors apparently

asked him to do.

If they want to go that route, he should get together the neighbors and
see how many are interested at that price point. Then Danny could go to
the water truckers and negotiate a deal for all of them, ie a volume deal.
Danny should bring all his spreadsheets and analytics to the water guy's
office. After an hour or two, the water guy will probably be willing to
give them the water for free just to be done with it. LOL

On 7/4/2014 6:44 PM, trader_4 wrote:
If they want to go that route, he should get together the neighbors and
see how many are interested at that price point. Then Danny could go to
the water truckers and negotiate a deal for all of them, ie a volume deal.
Danny should bring all his spreadsheets and analytics to the water guy's
office. After an hour or two, the water guy will probably be willing to
give them the water for free just to be done with it. LOL


Email the water hauler URL for endless
pictures. That should do it, if spread
sheet fails.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

the long term solution is everyone has a new much deeper well drilled

municipal government gets involved in runnig water lines, including fire hydrants to the area

This adds protection during wildfires, where often people water down their own homes to keep them from burning.

another halfway solution is for everyone to add much larger water storage tanks.. say a 10,000 gallon tank could be fed normally by a well, even a poor well would provide some water.

the tank would get filled when necessary.

lets not forget the value of the drivers time to fill tanks and the truck rental cost, or the cost of fuel and repairs. that will all add up surpringisly fast, and a truck hauling water wouldnt get good gas mileage, since water weighs 8 pounds per gallon. 1000 gallons is 8000 punds plus the weight of the tank and pump....

On 7/4/2014 12:13 PM, trader_4 wrote:
In fairness to Danny, from the original post, it's obvious it's not
a one time, 1000 gallon problem. CA is in a long term drought, his wells
are running dry and so are his neighbors. The idea was to see if they
could come up with some lower cost solution to span months.



Which reminds me, I wrote a caution. Once the
neighbors find out that Danny is a water hauler,
it will set up an expectation that he will keep
them in water, any time they need.

As with my own water hauling experience, some times
it's better to have a concealed tank, and work out
of sight. A 50 gal tank inside a panel van (with a
pump and hose to your own cistern) may be the way
to go.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

bob haller wrote, on Fri, 04 Jul 2014 17:30:56 -0700:

the long term solution is everyone has a new much deeper well drilled

One of the neighbors told me that it's something like $10,000 for every 100 feet,
which is about a $40,000 investment for each houshold, for an average 400-foot
well (some are deeper but that's how deep my good one is, IIRC).

municipal government gets involved in runnig water lines, including fire hydrants to the area

Do they run water lines well more than 2,000 feet up hill to the top?
How do they get the pressure needed?

This adds protection during wildfires, where often people water down their own homes to keep them from burning.

Luckily, I have a large pool of water, with chlorine and grandkids in it to
fight fires.

another halfway solution is for everyone to add much larger water storage tanks..
say a 10,000 gallon tank could be fed normally by a well, even a poor well would
provide some water.

It seems most have far more than 10,000 gallons.
For example, this residence has 15,000 gallons, of which 10,000 is for fire only:
https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3835/1...b1b7b947_b.jpg

This one has 25,000 gallons, of which 15,000 is dedicated for fire only:
https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3845/1...29d59813_b.jpg

the tank would get filled when necessary.
Yup. That's pretty much how it works out here.

lets not forget the value of the drivers time to fill tanks and the
truck rental cost, or the cost of fuel and repairs. that will all add
up surpringisly fast, and a truck hauling water wouldnt get good gas
mileage, since water weighs 8 pounds per gallon. 1000 gallons is 8000
punds plus the weight of the tank and pump....

Yup. Bulk water delivery costs are at least $225 to $380 for 3,800 gallons
based on my calls a while ago to these two companies when I needed to fill
my swimming pool:
https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3785/1...58d60248_b.jpg
Franks Water Service 408-353-1343
Bay Area Water Trucking 408-683-0500

Right now, I have a leak on the bottom of my steel tank, but I have
no idea how to fix it properly:
https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5507/1...0d057f23_b.jpg

Note: I think that semicircular rub mark is from deer drinking the water?

Stormin Mormon wrote, on Fri, 04 Jul 2014 18:56:49 -0400:

Email the water hauler URL for endless
pictures. That should do it, if spread
sheet fails.

Actually, we decided (three of us anyway) that we'd do exactly
what you suggested, which is to line up, for emergencies, a price
sort of what the SPUG group does for us for propane:
http://southskyline.org/spug/

What we'd do is negotiate a set price and delivery conditions,
and then we'd let all the neighbors know.

At the very least, we'd rate the bulk truckers, as some of them
are downright nasty. Most (if not all) take days just to return
a call, and none seem to have a 9 to 5 office admin. So, you
always get an answering machine. All who called back said they're
swamped now.

Even the big San Jose Water Company told me they're almost out
of water meters, which is what you need to legally hook up to
a fire hydrant to get water at 1 cent a gallon.

trader_4 wrote, on Fri, 04 Jul 2014 15:44:21 -0700:

You just keep the truck busy all day,
fill a lot of tanks up. But the flip side of that is somebody still
has to do the work.

The current plan is that we've lined up a couple of pickup trucks
from neighbors, and we have this (rather puny) 685-gallon spare tank:
https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5571/1...13b6ae13_b.jpg

That nominally 500-gallon tank weighs about 100 pounds, so, with
685 gallons in it, that's a bit over 2-1/2 tons of weight.
https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3847/1...747e92b5_b.jpg

I have never owned a pickup.

Does a 2-1/2 ton pickup actually carry 2-1/2 tons?
Seems logical, but I'm not sure how that spec works.

TomR wrote, on Fri, 04 Jul 2014 13:19:45 -0400:

At $250 for each 3,800 gallon transport, that's way less than
any of the other options that he was looking at

That's roughly about 7 cents a gallon, where the water company charges
1 cent a gallon for the water were we to truck it ourselves.

The *cheapest* option appears to be to use the spare 500 gallon tank
we have available to us (which holds 685 gallons when full), and borrow
a pickup capable of handling 2-1/2 ton loads uphill from one of the
neighbors with volunteer manpower.

The truck costs us a full tank of gas plus a case of beer plus probably
a few amenities like washing it and leaving goodies in the front seat.

We may need to buy a good horsepower water pump, to pump the
water from the truck to the top of a water tank, which could be as
far as 100 feet away from where the truck has to park.

The only problem is that a single 5,000 gallon water tank will take
(nominally) 10 trips, which is time consuming, so, we only want to
do this in emergencies. Still, it behooves us to plan ahead because
we're in the extreme fire hazard zone (nothing is higher) and, as
you may know, we're in a drought and there is absolutely no rain
forecasted until some time around November, if then.

I did google whether I could drink from the pool, and it turns out
that, even with the cyanuric acid, you *can* drink the water (but
I wouldn't want to unless I had to).
https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3877/1...a842d67a_b.jpg

trader_4 wrote, on Fri, 04 Jul 2014 09:13:51 -0700:

In fairness to Danny, from the original post, it's obvious it's not
a one time, 1000 gallon problem. CA is in a long term drought, his wells
are running dry and so are his neighbors. The idea was to see if they
could come up with some lower cost solution to span months.

Thanks for understanding the overall long-term strategic goal.
We won't see rain until November, at the earliest, and maybe, if
things proceed as they did last year, not even then.

At the moment, the fire department is scheduled to give us a talk
to our next homeowners meeting about what we can do to protect
ourselves from fire (we're in the extreme fire hazard zone in
addition to high liquifaction zone, which seems an oxymoron, but
isn't).

And, we have two water companies lined up, although one is a gruff
junkyard dog style guy - plus he's more expensive anyway, so, we're
OK on the delivery.

We've lined up a spare 685 gallon tank, and a spare pickup truck
(although we have no idea if that pickup can handle 2-1/2 tons)
and we know the neighbors will all pitch in, especially to help
the widows and divorced women and the older men (over 70, as the
rest of us are pretty rugged as we hike and rappel the hills
all the time together.

Costs for water alone are about 1 cent a gallon from the San Jose
Water Company, but that doesn't count the water meter rental.

Costs for the truck are free but that doesn't count what we'll do
for the owner (probably give him $50 to $100 worth of amenities).

Labor is free.

Pico Rico wrote, on Fri, 04 Jul 2014 08:18:59 -0700:

That's a different question -- how to get 38,000 gallons
delivered to fill your pool.

wouldn't the answer to that question involve waiting for it to rain?

Heh heh ... I don't know if you know about California, but, the
forecast is for ZERO rain from now until about late November.

From November to about March, it can rain a decent amount, or,
as it did last year, it could skip us altogether.

This (dated) article said 4 inches fell from Jan1 to late September 2013.
http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_241449...-year-bay-area

And the winter of 2013-2014 was equally dry.
http://extras.mnginteractive.com/liv...year90_400.jpg

So, if I waited for rain, my lap pool would still look like this:
https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2938/1...136dcef2_b.jpg

Instead of this:
https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5565/1...ccca8403_c.jpg

TomR wrote, on Fri, 04 Jul 2014 11:10:01 -0400:

That's a different question -- how to get 38,000 gallons delivered to fill
your pool.

I recently filled mine, but it took something like 3 weeks or so, even
at 5 gallons a minute:
https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2897/1...309bd6e3_b.jpg