Hi,

Anyone any experience with potable water storage tanks?

I'm looking to replace the old tank in the loft with a new one and I'm
thinking that it would be nice to fit one that I'd be (more) happy to
drink out of - and being able to use hot water at the tap to fill the
kettle with, etc.

For more details of the plumbing: A twin impellor ST pump sucks water
out of the tank, then one side goes to the cold taps in the bathroom,
the other side through a thermal store for hot to the bathroom and
kitchen - but cold in the kitchen is mains - high pressure, low flow,
hence a tank in the loft.

I've found a few places online (e.g. first google hit was
http://www.potablewatertanks.co.uk/) just wondering if anyone has any
experience and (probably more importantly!) can you taste the plasticy
stuff they make them out of? Loft gets a shade warm in the summer and
very cold in winter!

Cheers,

Gordon

On Feb 20, 8:07*pm, Gordon Henderson wrote:

All plastic cold water storage cisterns to the relevant British
Standard have been potable quality for 25 years or more. They should
have insulation, a snap-tight lid, a screened air vent, screened
overflow, etc. This is the byelaw 30 kit you may see mentioned.

You can't taste the plastic. The water will degrade if it geys warm
or if the lid isn't refitted after maintenance. The tank will have
installation instructions. It should be installed on a marine ply
base.

On Mon, 20 Feb 2012 20:07:18 +0000 (UTC), Gordon Henderson wrote:

Anyone any experience with potable water storage tanks?

All our water(*) goes through the storeage tanks (3 x 100 gallon) in
the loft. Historical reasons, mains water didn't arrive here until
about 30 years ago.

When we moved in they weren't well covered or have fly traps etc on
the overflow. There was a certain amount of detritus in the bottom of
them, from building debris to dead insects and mouse. Cleaned all
that out, within the first year or so. Wiped the insides down with a
bit of dilute bleach, fitted close fitting lids Bye Law 30 stuff etc
and lagged. We have never noticed any "taint" to the water of
suffered any illness.

With modern mains water supplies and covered insect proof tanks I
don't think there is any problem at all with stored water. If the
water was from a well or spring I'd filter and UV treat it before
storeage but you'd do that even if using direct.

(*) Until recently, some DHW is now direct from the mains via the
thermal store. All cold and other DHW is still via the tanks

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Feb 20, 8:07*pm, Gordon Henderson wrote:


Additionally,it's important not to have too big a tank so there is a
good turnover of the water. Problems occur when water is stored too
long and too warm.

In article ,
harry writes:
On Feb 20, 8:07*pm, Gordon Henderson wrote:
Additionally,it's important not to have too big a tank so there is a
good turnover of the water. Problems occur when water is stored too
long and too warm.

Assuming the water is treated mains water with trace chlorine in it,
being kept too warm is going to be more problem than the length of time.
Insulating the tank well so it doesn't heat up in the summer is probably
very important - my loft gets up to 50C in the summer. You might want to
think about fitting two lagging kits, and standing the tank on a sheet
of celotex/kingspan (on top of rigid base), and possibly to top vents
in the loft to reduce max temperature in summer (although they may
increase chance of freezing pipework in winter).

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

Thanks for the replies - sounds like it's a bit of a no-brainer then. My
biggest issue now is finding one that will fit through the hatch as it's
rather small.

I also don't think water "turnaround" time will be overly long either -
we can drain the current tank if we fill a bath, so a couple of showers
every day will move a lot of water through it anyway. Will go up later
today and measure it to work out what size new one to get.

It's also intersting to note what they used to use here - a large
(huge - I reckon it's at least a meter cubed, so 1 tonne of water!)
galvanised steel tank. They just left it there when some prior
owners fitted the current plastic tank... It's now full of old
loft insulation and presenting me with a bit of a problem as I'd
really like to remove it - one day!

Thanks,

Gordon

On 21/02/2012 09:01, Gordon Henderson wrote:
Thanks for the replies - sounds like it's a bit of a no-brainer then. My
biggest issue now is finding one that will fit through the hatch as it's
rather small.

You can always fit two cisterns, connected at low level, provided you
arrange it so that water flows into one and out of the other.

I also don't think water "turnaround" time will be overly long either -
we can drain the current tank if we fill a bath, so a couple of showers
every day will move a lot of water through it anyway. Will go up later
today and measure it to work out what size new one to get.

It's also intersting to note what they used to use here - a large
(huge - I reckon it's at least a meter cubed, so 1 tonne of water!)
galvanised steel tank. They just left it there when some prior
owners fitted the current plastic tank... It's now full of old
loft insulation and presenting me with a bit of a problem as I'd
really like to remove it - one day!

I'd like to say angle grinder, but hiring a power nibbler is the best way.

Colin Bignell

In article ,
Nightjar writes:
On 21/02/2012 09:01, Gordon Henderson wrote:
Thanks for the replies - sounds like it's a bit of a no-brainer then. My
biggest issue now is finding one that will fit through the hatch as it's
rather small.

You can get collapsable ones for this purpose (although I never
tried using one), and of course you can use more than one and
link them together.

You can always fit two cisterns, connected at low level, provided you
arrange it so that water flows into one and out of the other.

I also don't think water "turnaround" time will be overly long either -
we can drain the current tank if we fill a bath, so a couple of showers
every day will move a lot of water through it anyway. Will go up later
today and measure it to work out what size new one to get.

It's also intersting to note what they used to use here - a large
(huge - I reckon it's at least a meter cubed, so 1 tonne of water!)
galvanised steel tank. They just left it there when some prior
owners fitted the current plastic tank... It's now full of old
loft insulation and presenting me with a bit of a problem as I'd
really like to remove it - one day!

I'd like to say angle grinder, but hiring a power nibbler is the best way.

There were several in my brothers loft (the house had at some stage
been split into flats with separate tanks, and then back into one
house). When he switched to a combi, part of the work specified was
to remove all the tanks. First problem was that several of them still
had a reasonable amount of water in them, although not connected up
for 10+ years. Having got that out, the plumber cut them up with an
angle grinder, and I do not know how he managed not to burn down the
house - apparently sparks were flying everywhere, including out of
the loft hatch and bouncing down the stairs.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

With modern mains water supplies and covered insect proof tanks I
don't think there is any problem at all with stored water. If the
water was from a well or spring I'd filter and UV treat it before
storeage but you'd do that even if using direct.

--
Cheers
Dave.

We had spring water in our last house for 18 years. It had minute
shrimps in it 1-2cm long. I had a filter to cathc those and small
pieces of grit that blocked the ballcock. ?Thast was all we did and it
was fine - no ill-effects. Our neighbour who is 89 is going strong and
she drank it for 50 years.

Jonathan
han

In article ,
Jonathan wrote:

With modern mains water supplies and covered insect proof tanks I
don't think there is any problem at all with stored water. If the
water was from a well or spring I'd filter and UV treat it before
storeage but you'd do that even if using direct.

We had spring water in our last house for 18 years. It had minute
shrimps in it 1-2cm long. I had a filter to cathc those and small
pieces of grit that blocked the ballcock. ?Thast was all we did and it
was fine - no ill-effects. Our neighbour who is 89 is going strong and
she drank it for 50 years.

There is a small river at the bottom of our graden and I have toyed with
the idea of using it then getting a water meter to save a bit of money
but it would require some 100m of hosepipe to get it close to the house
(garden is not that big, just detatched!) Getting a submersible pump
to it isn't an issue, but getting electrickery to the pump is - even
assuming I could get a hose there, so preferably, I'd need a pump at the
house end that could suck air through 100m of pipe before it got wet...
Total lift isn't much but needs to be considered...

Maybe one day!

Gordon

"Jonathan" wrote in message
...


We had spring water in our last house for 18 years. It had minute
shrimps in it 1-2cm long. I had a filter to cathc those and small
pieces of grit that blocked the ballcock. ?Thast was all we did and it
was fine - no ill-effects. Our neighbour who is 89 is going strong and
she drank it for 50 years.

The shrimps are fine as long as they are alive.
If they are dead don't drink the water!

There have been times when shrimps came out of the mains water in parts of
the UK.

On Feb 21, 1:54*pm, "dennis@home" wrote:
..

The shrimps are fine as long as they are alive.
If they are dead don't drink the water!



They were. The spring came out of the ground into a tank that fed our
house by gravity.

Joinathan

On 20/02/2012 8:07 PM, Gordon Henderson wrote:
Hi,

Anyone any experience with potable water storage tanks?

I'm looking to replace the old tank in the loft with a new one and I'm
thinking that it would be nice to fit one that I'd be (more) happy to
drink out of - and being able to use hot water at the tap to fill the
kettle with, etc.

For more details of the plumbing: A twin impellor ST pump sucks water
out of the tank, then one side goes to the cold taps in the bathroom,
the other side through a thermal store for hot to the bathroom and
kitchen - but cold in the kitchen is mains - high pressure, low flow,
hence a tank in the loft.

I've found a few places online (e.g. first google hit was
http://www.potablewatertanks.co.uk/) just wondering if anyone has any
experience and (probably more importantly!) can you taste the plasticy
stuff they make them out of? Loft gets a shade warm in the summer and
very cold in winter!


I have a thermal store .. so no cold storage tank at all ... cold and
hot are both at mains pressure ... massive flow rates, at great pressure.

In article ,
Rick wrote:

I have a thermal store .. so no cold storage tank at all ... cold and
hot are both at mains pressure ... massive flow rates, at great pressure.

I have great pressure from the mains (8bar), but a piddly low flow
rate. There is a blockage/kink/crush in the buried pipe coming into the
house which I don't currently have the resources to look for (ie. dig
down through the tarmac/concrete/rubble to find) That's the only reason
I keep the big tank in the loft...

Gordon

On Feb 21, 9:13*pm, Rick wrote:

I have a thermal store .. so no cold storage tank at all ... cold and
hot are both at mains pressure ... massive flow rates, at great pressure.

Hi, could you describe your thermal store for me? Sounds interesting.
I like the idea of main pressure hot water.

(Andrew Gabriel) writes:

In article ,
Nightjar writes:
On 21/02/2012 09:01, Gordon Henderson wrote:
Thanks for the replies - sounds like it's a bit of a no-brainer then. My
biggest issue now is finding one that will fit through the hatch as it's
rather small.

You can get collapsable ones for this purpose (although I never
tried using one), and of course you can use more than one and
link them together.

You can always fit two cisterns, connected at low level, provided you
arrange it so that water flows into one and out of the other.

I also don't think water "turnaround" time will be overly long either -
we can drain the current tank if we fill a bath, so a couple of showers
every day will move a lot of water through it anyway. Will go up later
today and measure it to work out what size new one to get.

It's also intersting to note what they used to use here - a large
(huge - I reckon it's at least a meter cubed, so 1 tonne of water!)
galvanised steel tank. They just left it there when some prior
owners fitted the current plastic tank... It's now full of old
loft insulation and presenting me with a bit of a problem as I'd
really like to remove it - one day!

I'd like to say angle grinder, but hiring a power nibbler is the best way.

There were several in my brothers loft (the house had at some stage
been split into flats with separate tanks, and then back into one
house). When he switched to a combi, part of the work specified was
to remove all the tanks. First problem was that several of them still
had a reasonable amount of water in them, although not connected up
for 10+ years. Having got that out, the plumber cut them up with an
angle grinder, and I do not know how he managed not to burn down the
house - apparently sparks were flying everywhere, including out of
the loft hatch and bouncing down the stairs.

I have a similar problem - a large, old, galvanised iron cold water
tank which should be replaced some time - and had been thinking angle
grinder until I saw mention of the 'power nibbler' idea.

The City of Edinburgh (or their contractors) managed to burn down an
old stone-built school building which had been undergoing renovation,
supposedly because of careless use of an AG.

--
Windmill, Use t m i l l
J.R.R. Tolkien:- @ O n e t e l . c o m
All that is gold does not glister / Not all who wander are lost

I have a similar problem - a large, old, galvanised iron cold water
tank which should be replaced some time - and had been thinking angle
grinder until I saw mention of the 'power nibbler' idea.


Power nibblers are pretty slow and might not cope with the thickness.
You can get air powered shears which are faster, but I'm not sure if
mine would manage a tank either(certainly not the angle iron bracing at
corners).

I'd go for AG, but you should have an assistant watching out, with a
garden pressure spray just containing water. Use a mist to dampen
anything flammable that is getting a serious spray of sparks. The
problem with an AG is that you need to concentrate on where you are
cutting, so can be spraying sparks on a bad place without realising, and
smouldering stuff can catch light out of sight.

On Feb 21, 12:25 pm, Gordon Henderson
wrote:
In article ,

Jonathan wrote:

With modern mains water supplies and covered insect proof tanks I
don't think there is any problem at all with stored water. If the
water was from a well or spring I'd filter and UV treat it before
storeage but you'd do that even if using direct.

We had spring water in our last house for 18 years. It had minute
shrimps in it 1-2cm long. I had a filter to cathc those and small
pieces of grit that blocked the ballcock. ?Thast was all we did and it
was fine - no ill-effects. Our neighbour who is 89 is going strong and
she drank it for 50 years.

There is a small river at the bottom of our graden and I have toyed with
the idea of using it then getting a water meter to save a bit of money
but it would require some 100m of hosepipe to get it close to the house
(garden is not that big, just detatched!) Getting a submersible pump
to it isn't an issue, but getting electrickery to the pump is - even
assuming I could get a hose there, so preferably, I'd need a pump at the
house end that could suck air through 100m of pipe before it got wet...
Total lift isn't much but needs to be considered...

Maybe one day!

Gordon

prime it from the house end first & have a non-returrn valve at the
bottom?

Jim K

On 21/02/2012 11:27 PM, David Paste wrote:
On Feb 21, 9:13 pm, wrote:

I have a thermal store .. so no cold storage tank at all ... cold and
hot are both at mains pressure ... massive flow rates, at great pressure.

Hi, could you describe your thermal store for me? Sounds interesting.
I like the idea of main pressure hot water.

Yep .. looks like a large, tall DHW Cylinder.


In may particular case there is a baffle horizontally about 1/3 down
form top ... creates a stratified layer - so I can stop HW at top mixing
too easily with warm water below (reason will be explained)

In standard DHW set up the boiler loop just circulates the content of
the boiler tails and the transfer could in the tank.

pretty inefficient .. as it can heat up quickly and cause cycling of
your boiler .. loop is up to temp but HW tank isn't.
You the store the water at temp .. that you will use .. and because you
are storing water that has circulated around your boiler ... it's non
potable.
You also have (usually ) CH system run off the primaries as well .. each
time rads call for heat boiler fires up.

In Thermal store the whole content of store are circulated around the
boiler ... so when there is demand for HW .. there is a long efficinet
burn, store heats up and holds HW.

Take off is indirect ... there are2 heat exchangers in the store ..

The lower one is where the heating loop is taken off .. in my case goers
to underfloor heating manifolds ... one on each floor feeding 17
independently controlled zones.
This is set via thermostat about 1/3 up the tank set to 60 deg; store
(feeds pump & valve for boiler, and boiler demand signal) to keep
heating water at 'warm'
This is a closed loop of recirculated CH water.

The upper part of tank (above baffle) runs much hotter (as stat is at
1/3 point) and there is 2nd heat exchanger there ...
Although complicated by pressure reg, strainers, drains etc. .... you
can think of one side of this heat exchanger being connected to main
cold water, what come out the other side is DHW ... it is through a 3
way thermostatic blending valve so you have a constant DHW temp.
(set to 50 deg C in may case)

This DHW is at mains pressure on 22mm pipes ... so massive flow &
pressure ... this means showers that could pressure wash you if you
wanted :-)

In fact I have it set by regulator to 3.5bar and 25 Litres/min
DHW at this flow & pressure is really good to have.


The large Thermal store means there is never any dropping off in temp
when you are running a bath or using more than one shower at a time.

I have an extra fitted ... I run 22mm pipes DHW in a series circuit
around every appliance, and at the very last one, run a 15mm return pipe
to the Thermal store, where it returns via a very low speed circulator
(multiple time settings pump) .. which makes water circulate around loop
very slowly.
This provides a pumped HW loop ...... so when I turn on a HW tap ... HW
is instant, no need to run it to get hot ... same as they do in Hotels &
offices. As soon as you open tap it is at 3.5 bar .. not dependant on
pump, pump just circulates the 3.5 bar loop.
This means no wasted water. (I also have underground rain water storage
of 6500L .. so my water bill is very low)

I have heated towel rails on this loop ... so towels can still dry in
the summer when heating is off .... the loop is fully insulated so no
real heat loss.


One advantage is that the DHW is fully potable .. as is cold ... many
people won't drink from upstairs taps as cold is fed from CW tank ...
which may have dead pigeons in it as far as you know.

My CW and HW are both mains supply ... no storage at all.

The whole Thermal store is pressurised .. to 1 bar, as is CH loop.

HTH .... ping me a PM if you want more details.

On Feb 21, 1:54*pm, "dennis@home" wrote:

There have been times when shrimps came out of the mains water in parts of
the UK.

Regular feature of my water in Victorian Newcastle, some years ago.
We'd get the odd live one, then sometimes they'd poison the lot in the
mains and we'd have a flurry of dead ones for a day or two.

Newshound writes:


I have a similar problem - a large, old, galvanised iron cold water
tank which should be replaced some time - and had been thinking angle
grinder until I saw mention of the 'power nibbler' idea.
Power nibblers are pretty slow and might not cope with the thickness.
You can get air powered shears which are faster, but I'm not sure if
mine would manage a tank either(certainly not the angle iron bracing at
corners).
I'd go for AG, but you should have an assistant watching out, with a
garden pressure spray just containing water. Use a mist to dampen
anything flammable that is getting a serious spray of sparks. The
problem with an AG is that you need to concentrate on where you are
cutting, so can be spraying sparks on a bad place without realising, and
smouldering stuff can catch light out of sight.


Thanks for the suggestion. I'll look out for a suitable sprayer.

I had some doubts about the nibbler idea.

--
Windmill, Use t m i l l
J.R.R. Tolkien:- @ O n e t e l . c o m
All that is gold does not glister / Not all who wander are lost

Windmill wrote:
Newshound writes:


I have a similar problem - a large, old, galvanised iron cold water
tank which should be replaced some time - and had been thinking angle
grinder until I saw mention of the 'power nibbler' idea.
Power nibblers are pretty slow and might not cope with the thickness.
You can get air powered shears which are faster, but I'm not sure if
mine would manage a tank either(certainly not the angle iron bracing at
corners).
I'd go for AG, but you should have an assistant watching out, with a
garden pressure spray just containing water. Use a mist to dampen
anything flammable that is getting a serious spray of sparks. The
problem with an AG is that you need to concentrate on where you are
cutting, so can be spraying sparks on a bad place without realising, and
smouldering stuff can catch light out of sight.


Thanks for the suggestion. I'll look out for a suitable sprayer.

I had some doubts about the nibbler idea.


Hire a plasma cutter perhaps? Seem to recall seeing one used on "A 4x4 is
born" tv program and being impressed by the ease and precision with which
you could cut sheet metal.

Tim

"Gordon Henderson" wrote in message
...
Hi,

Anyone any experience with potable water storage tanks?

I'm looking to replace the old tank in the loft with a new one and I'm
thinking that it would be nice to fit one that I'd be (more) happy to
drink out of - and being able to use hot water at the tap to fill the
kettle with, etc.

For more details of the plumbing: A twin impellor ST pump sucks water
out of the tank, then one side goes to the cold taps in the bathroom,
the other side through a thermal store for hot to the bathroom and
kitchen - but cold in the kitchen is mains - high pressure, low flow,
hence a tank in the loft.

I've found a few places online (e.g. first google hit was
http://www.potablewatertanks.co.uk/) just wondering if anyone has any
experience and (probably more importantly!) can you taste the plasticy
stuff they make them out of? Loft gets a shade warm in the summer and
very cold in winter!

Look at a mains pressure cold water accumulator. It stores cold water mains
pressures. If you have a high flow combi they work together very well. It
give high pressure and high flows. Higher flows than the mains can provide.
It is the shape of a cylinder with an air charged pressure ball inside.
Great for poor mains water pipe flows. No pumps needed and mains pressure
on all taps.

"Gordon Henderson" wrote in message
...

Thanks for the replies - sounds like it's a bit of a no-brainer then. My
biggest issue now is finding one that will fit through the hatch as it's
rather small.

An accumulator (cylinder shaped) can go in the airing cuboard.

"Gordon Henderson" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Rick wrote:

I have a thermal store .. so no cold storage tank at all ... cold and
hot are both at mains pressure ... massive flow rates, at great pressure.

I have great pressure from the mains (8bar), but a piddly low flow
rate.

Look at an accumulator. Perfect for high static pressure and low flows.
Forget tanks and pumps. They are the last resort. Proper professional would
not use tanks and pumps.

Do you have boiler? Oil? Gas? Hot water storage cylinder?

On Feb 26, 9:02*am, Tim wrote:
Windmill wrote:
Newshound writes:

I have a similar problem - a large, old, galvanised iron cold water
tank which should be replaced some time - and had been thinking angle
grinder until I saw mention of the 'power nibbler' idea.
Power nibblers are pretty slow and might not cope with the thickness.
You can get air powered shears which are faster, but I'm not sure if
mine would manage a tank either(certainly not the angle iron bracing at
corners).
I'd go for AG, but you should have an assistant watching out, with a
garden pressure spray just containing water. Use a mist to dampen
anything flammable that is getting a serious spray of sparks. The
problem with an AG is that you need to concentrate on where you are
cutting, so can be spraying sparks on a bad place without realising, and
smouldering stuff can catch light out of sight.

Thanks for the suggestion. I'll look out for a suitable sprayer.

I had some doubts about the nibbler idea.

I had one in my loft. I didn't want to use an angle grinder because of
the sparks, so used a B&D electric jigsaw. The sides are very thin and
it went through it easily, taking a bit longer around the sides where
there was an angle iron frame. It took 20 minutes to reduce it to loft-
hatch-sized chunks. I'd definitely use a jigsaw if I had to do another
one.

On Feb 25, 11:45*pm, Rick wrote:

This DHW is at mains pressure on 22mm pipes ... so massive flow &
pressure ... this means showers that could pressure wash you if you
wanted * :-)

This provides a pumped HW loop ...
HW is instant, no need to run it to get hot...
I have heated towel rails on this loop ...

THIS is what civilisation is all about!

On Feb 26, 12:04*am, Andy Dingley wrote:
On Feb 21, 1:54*pm, "dennis@home" wrote:

There have been times when shrimps came out of the mains water in parts of
the UK.

Regular feature of my water in Victorian Newcastle

Bloody hell, how old are you?! ;-)

On Saturday, February 25, 2012 11:45:10 PM UTC, Rick wrote:

[snippage]

My CW and HW are both mains supply ... no storage at all.


OK, so having a bit more of a think, is there any reason why the boiler can't be put in the loft, and the water tank in a cupboard a la airing cupboard?

David Paste wrote:
On Saturday, February 25, 2012 11:45:10 PM UTC, Rick wrote:

[snippage]

My CW and HW are both mains supply ... no storage at all.


OK, so having a bit more of a think, is there any reason why the boiler can't be put in the loft, and the water tank in a cupboard a la airing cupboard?

No.

In my case the boiler is in a utility room and te TANK is in the loft.

A friends installation has BOTH in a lean to 'cupboard' on the size of
his cottage. Used to be a coal or wood store I think.