Stormin Mormon wrote, on Fri, 04 Jul 2014 07:30:17 -0400:

Of course, doing your own hauling figures free
labor. I'd be careful doing water hauling for
neighbors, too easy to establish a dependance
relationship.

We help each other out, when we can.

In fact, a neighbor asked us to do an inspection of his
water supply, and we cheerfully did that for him.

We pitch in and all hike together roped on the hills.

I went hiking with the neighbors just today, and we were
able to cross the lake on foot for a shortcut cutting off
about 5 miles, but normally the lake is a half mile wide
or so of water. It's all just cracked mud now:
https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3839/1...2c44e8b9_b.jpg

The mud is still slightly wet, but, cracking fast:
https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3839/1...c4f15f0a_c.jpg

All the lakes are nearly dried up.

CRNG wrote, on Fri, 04 Jul 2014 03:23:39 -0500:

That's about $60/1k gallons. That seems like a lot.

It's California. Water is expensive.

This is what a wetter part of the local lake looked like
today on a hike with the neighbors:
https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3922/1...5712af8a_b.jpg

The good news is that there is still *some* water, but, it's
not a lot. And a lake is presumed to be reflective of the water
table, I think.

On 7/5/2014 7:19 AM, DannyD. wrote:
TomR wrote, on Fri, 04 Jul 2014 13:19:45 -0400:

At $250 for each 3,800 gallon transport, that's way less than
any of the other options that he was looking at

That's roughly about 7 cents a gallon, where the water company charges
1 cent a gallon for the water were we to truck it ourselves.

The *cheapest* option appears to be to use the spare 500 gallon tank
we have available to us (which holds 685 gallons when full), and borrow
a pickup capable of handling 2-1/2 ton loads uphill from one of the
neighbors with volunteer manpower.

The truck costs us a full tank of gas plus a case of beer plus probably
a few amenities like washing it and leaving goodies in the front seat.


How many trips at that cost? Seems like it is getting pricey.

TomR wrote, on Fri, 04 Jul 2014 13:19:45 -0400:

It certainly
beats my "buy 55-gallon drums and make 10 trips of 2 drums at a time in a
pickup truck" idea; or my get a fire truck idea, etc.

The fire department, while they *replace* water used, doesn't *deliver*
water, they told me.

Ed Pawlowski wrote, on Sat, 05 Jul 2014 08:37:15 -0400:

How many trips at that cost? Seems like it is getting pricey.

If we buy bulk water, the cheapest we've found is $225 to $250
for 3,800 gallons in a stainless steel truck.

If we buy water from the SJWC, the water is practically free,
but we need to factor in round trips of the borrowed truck
and rental of the water meter.

At 10 miles round trip for every (nominal) 500 gallons, it
would take only 20 miles to fill 1,000 gallons, so it would
be 100 miles to fill a full 5,000 gallon tank (if the
resident were the furthest from the hydrant).

100 miles, at, say, 10 mpg is 10 gallons of gas, which
is about $40 to $50 in gasoline. Add a case of beer (at
the very least) to the truck owner.

trader_4 wrote, on Fri, 04 Jul 2014 09:13:51 -0700:

In fairness to Danny, from the original post, it's obvious it's not
a one time, 1000 gallon problem. CA is in a long term drought, his wells
are running dry and so are his neighbors. The idea was to see if they
could come up with some lower cost solution to span months.

By way of comparison, here are some shots of the neighbor's water
tank systems.

Mine seems to be unique in not having a spare tank or two for
the fire department.

Here is a four-tank setup, for a very old house, built sometime in
the sixties, which also seems to have an unearthed but empty
underground steel tank.
https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3890/1...af927f95_b.jpg

Here is a three-tank setup, with, oddly, the wharf hydrant *above*
the bottom of the water tank (the only one set up that way that
I know of):
https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2932/1...ee0ae293_b.jpg

And, here's a steel tank setup, mine being the only other steel
tanks, which has that curious set of swirls on the side of
the middle tank, just like mine does!
https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3879/1...3a8b91b8_b.jpg

What do you think is causing these huge semicircular swirls?

DannyD. posted for all of us...

And I know how to SNIP


Stormin Mormon wrote, on Sat, 28 Jun 2014 10:06:14 -0400:

And that sounds like excellent idea. I have a gut
sense this is more of a retirement community.
Danny,anyone in your area going to work every
day like PR's friend?

Well, there are all types. For example, the woman who ran
out of water just divorced from her husband about two years ago,
and she got the house and kids so she's actually renting her
additional cottage on the property to another ex homeowner
who lost his home down the street to the bank. So, she's
not retured.

Yet, others own multiple companies, and the only ones going
up and down the hill are their landscapers and repairmen.

The majority are independently wealthy (except me, as I've
retired, but I may have to reconsider my options), but
some are people who have been here for 40 years, and they
must have bought when prices were less than a million so
their taxes aren't killing them like mine are killing me!


I just got an update from the divorced lady. She is
contracting out to get her rather shallow (only 300 feet)
well drilled deeper. The next in line is a lady whose
husband recently died, and her house is under foreclosure.

Her well (as is mine) is tripping every few minutes, so,
she's conserving water (as am I) and hoping the water supply
lasts until the next forcasted rain (which will come in
October or November).

As for me, I filled the pool, so, "my" supply, while intermittent,
was good enough to last, but, there are vineyards here which
must be using a LOT of water ... so it may simply be a matter
of location.

I don't know, but, for me, and for those without the ready
capital to drill deeper, I'd go for the temporary solution of
trucking the water up the hill.

The sloshing tipping over the truck seems to me to be a very
real concern that I hadn't considered, because, there is no
guardrail, and you're going down a slope that doesn't end
for thousands of vertical feet, so, it would behoove us to
better understand the sloshing effect on a pickup truck filled
with a 1,000 gallons of water in a tank.

The tank MUST have baffles. I think the pickup truck is an overly rated
solution. Most pickups are bought with commuting and occasional work in
mind. Not heavy duty. Beware.

Can the water district, emergency management or other gov't agency help? How
about the vineyards? In your case it would most likely be fruitless to file
suit on the vineyard.

Probably the best solution for you is to have a deeper well drilled. Maybe
the company that is doing your neighbors well(s) would be less expensive
because they are are doing jobs in the same area. You know, deep down, that
you will run out of water at the worse time and the drillers will be busy. I
would address it before it becomes a crisis.

i wish I could be more encouraging...

--
Tekkie

DannyD. posted for all of us...

And I know how to SNIP


Jim Rusling wrote, on Sat, 28 Jun 2014 14:14:27 -0500:

You just need to make sure the tank is full. A full tank will not
slosh very much if at all

This is the kind of advice, that, (a) isn't obvious, and (b), if you
don't know it, can win us a Darwin award.

So I greatly appreciate the tidbit, because I hadn't even thought
of the sloshing until it was mentioned.

As i posted before; good luck with that...

--
Tekkie

DannyD. posted for all of us...

And I know how to SNIP


I always wondered how much of that lost fuel mileage you
get back on the downhill drive, which is done essentially in
neutral for the entire 5 miles.

I realize it won't exactly cancel out, but, essentially you
get 100mpg (or whatever) on the downhill drive; while you
probably get something like half your city mpg on the uphill
climb.

You aren't going to coast in neutral downhill, most places is illegal, you
will will burn out the brakes and have a runaway truck. A fuel injected
engine is programmed to cut the injectors off; so no fuel is used. A diesel
will have a jake brake (on heavy duty trucks).

Do not take any advice from Stumpy!

--
Tekkie

DannyD. posted for all of us...

And I know how to SNIP


Stormin Mormon wrote, on Tue, 01 Jul 2014 07:42:20 -0400:

Interesting. That's a dry pipe hydrant. I thought
you were / are in California? Does it get cold and
freeze in the winter? North part of the state?

I don't know what you mean by a "dry pipe hydrant", so,
googling for that term, Wikipedia says it's a non-pressurized
hydrant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_hydrant).

But this "Guide to planning & installing dry hydrants"
http://dnr.wi.gov/topic/forestmanage...pub/fr-044.pdf
implies that it's for sucking water out of a lake or pond.

I can call the San Jose Water Company to be sure, but,
what do you mean by a dry hydrant (and how can you tell
just by looking at the photo)?
https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3867/1...cd625d51_b.jpg

Stumped got to you... Dry hydrants are like you describe, are designed to
use a farmers pond to provide water for firefighting purposes. It must use
the pumps suction to work. I was not familiar with "wharf hydrant" until you
used it. If my logic is correct it is basically a drain from the the tank to
the hydrant and is a gravity feed. From your pix I would "exercise" the
hydrant at least once a year. Not now since water is in short supply. You
could pose this question to the fire district.

You will not get potable water in return for ff use. Trust me on this. Only
if provided by emergency management in a tanker so marked.

--
Tekkie

Gordon Shumway posted for all of us...

And I know how to SNIP


On Fri, 27 Jun 2014 21:16:36 +0000 (UTC), "DannyD."
wrote:

The San Jose Water Company sells water out of the fire hydrants at $2.70 per
CCF (i.e., $2.71 per 748 gallons) after we rent a "portable meter", either a
1-inch portable meter (output is a male 3/4-inch garden hose thread) at
$29.48/month, or a 3-inch portable meter (output is a male 2-1/2 inch firehose
thread) at $176.98 a month.

I can't help you with advice for getting the water delivered, but I
can give you some advice if you opt for the "firehose" thread option.
Back in the day it was not all that uncommon for several neighboring
towns to all have different threads on their hydrants. There used to
be dozens of threads used on hydrants and I'm confident that has
become more standardized over the years. My advice is make sure you
know what threads are on the hydrant(s) you would use.

Good luck.

This is true. Back in my ff days we had boards with the different adapters
used. It all depended on which the water company used. Sometimes even the
fire truck manufacturers would have their own threads!

--
Tekkie

"DannyD." wrote in message
...
Stormin Mormon wrote, on Tue, 01 Jul 2014 07:42:20 -0400:

Interesting. That's a dry pipe hydrant. I thought
you were / are in California? Does it get cold and
freeze in the winter? North part of the state?

I don't know what you mean by a "dry pipe hydrant", so,
googling for that term, Wikipedia says it's a non-pressurized
hydrant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_hydrant).


The correct term was "dry barrel hydrant", not "dry pipe hydrant".

TomR posted for all of us...

And I know how to SNIP


Any chance that you could hook up a deal with a local (possibly volunteer)
fire department? I don't know how many gallons a typical fire department
pumper truck holds, but I know that most can pump 500 to 1000 gallons a
minute if needed, so I assume that they can hold more than 1000 gallons.

It depends on what the fire co buys but 1000 is about the typical max on a
pumper. Got have room and suspension for a pump, hose and all sorts of stuff
in which the list keeps growing.

Maybe have them do a training exercise for newer firefighters on the
operation and use of the pumper trucks and give them a significant donation
for doing that.

Those are just my quick thoughts.

I would not drink that water, it is not potable. The OP is 5 miles from a
hydrant 7 uphill. LOT of hose and a LOT of pressure involved.

--
Tekkie

trader_4 posted for all of us...

And I know how to SNIP



In fairness to Danny, from the original post, it's obvious it's not
a one time, 1000 gallon problem. CA is in a long term drought, his wells
are running dry and so are his neighbors. The idea was to see if they
could come up with some lower cost solution to span months.



+1 He is in bad spot.

--
Tekkie

On 7/6/2014 1:33 PM, Pico Rico wrote:
"DannyD." wrote in message
...
Stormin Mormon wrote, on Tue, 01 Jul 2014 07:42:20 -0400:

Interesting. That's a dry pipe hydrant. I thought
you were / are in California? Does it get cold and
freeze in the winter? North part of the state?

I don't know what you mean by a "dry pipe hydrant", so,
googling for that term, Wikipedia says it's a non-pressurized
hydrant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_hydrant).


The correct term was "dry barrel hydrant", not "dry pipe hydrant".


It's been twenty or so years since I was a
volunteer FF, some of the memory fades.
Thanks.


--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
...
On 7/6/2014 1:33 PM, Pico Rico wrote:
"DannyD." wrote in message
...
Stormin Mormon wrote, on Tue, 01 Jul 2014 07:42:20 -0400:

Interesting. That's a dry pipe hydrant. I thought
you were / are in California? Does it get cold and
freeze in the winter? North part of the state?

I don't know what you mean by a "dry pipe hydrant", so,
googling for that term, Wikipedia says it's a non-pressurized
hydrant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_hydrant).


The correct term was "dry barrel hydrant", not "dry pipe hydrant".


It's been twenty or so years since I was a
volunteer FF, some of the memory fades.
Thanks.

oh, to answer your question, there are plenty of both types in this area,
where there is no real danger of freezing. I thought the reason for the dry
barrel hydrants around here was so that when some nitwit knocks one over
with his car, there wouldn't be a geyser.

On 7/6/2014 2:03 PM, Pico Rico wrote:
It's been twenty or so years since I was a
volunteer FF, some of the memory fades.
Thanks.

oh, to answer your question, there are plenty of both types in this area,
where there is no real danger of freezing. I thought the reason for the dry
barrel hydrants around here was so that when some nitwit knocks one over
with his car, there wouldn't be a geyser.



Who can tell? Might be just as you say. In NYS, we
have a frost line three or so feet below ground, so
we need the dry barrel hydrants.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
...
On 7/6/2014 2:03 PM, Pico Rico wrote:
It's been twenty or so years since I was a
volunteer FF, some of the memory fades.
Thanks.

oh, to answer your question, there are plenty of both types in this area,
where there is no real danger of freezing. I thought the reason for the
dry
barrel hydrants around here was so that when some nitwit knocks one over
with his car, there wouldn't be a geyser.



Who can tell? Might be just as you say. In NYS, we
have a frost line three or so feet below ground, so
we need the dry barrel hydrants.


maybe some city hall guy came from NYS and only knows one way to do things.

Your best source might be one of your neighbors, or maybe you, that has a
deep well. Good location. San Jose may take their water out of the bay
now, but in the past they surely used a well. Take your
water from the same place San Jose does/did, at a lower price.

Hul

DannyD. wrote:
dpb wrote, on Fri, 27 Jun 2014 16:56:24 -0500:

How many of 'em are there?

There are about 50 neighbors in the neighborhood, but, of course,
not everyone will be willing to pitch in. Just those with the
shallower wells (less than about 500 feet or so deep).

I'd think if they'd just pool together could buy a used trailer
for the tank and surely somebody has a PU to pull it?
WOuldn't take long to make up for the repeated truck rental.

Can a typical trailer hold 1,000 gallons (8,000 pounds)?
Can a pickup pull that up a windy 9% grade for about 5 miles?

If so, that's a good idea, since the truck rental is the
largest cost. The water itself is practically free.

Of course, we'd also need a pump...

"Hul Tytus" wrote in message
...
Your best source might be one of your neighbors, or maybe you, that has a
deep well. Good location. San Jose may take their water out of the bay
now, but in the past they surely used a well. Take your
water from the same place San Jose does/did, at a lower price.

Hul


San Jose does not drink bay water.

On 7/6/2014 6:20 PM, Pico Rico wrote:
"Hul Tytus" wrote in message
...
Your best source might be one of your neighbors, or maybe you, that has a
deep well. Good location. San Jose may take their water out of the bay
now, but in the past they surely used a well. Take your
water from the same place San Jose does/did, at a lower price.

Hul


San Jose does not drink bay water.


You mean I've been misinformed all this time?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nz_-KNNl-no

Don't take any advice from Tekkie!

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

Hul Tytus wrote, on Sun, 06 Jul 2014 21:45:32 +0000:

Take your water from the same place San Jose does/did,
at a lower price.

The *only* legal water we can get is from the San Jose Water
Company, either at a SJWC hydrant, or by a trucking firm who
gets their water at a SJWC hydrant. There is no other (known)
way (at this point).

The trucking firm charges $225 to $250 for 3,800 gallons, or
about six cents (give or take) a gallon.

The price of the water directly from SJWC is almost nothing
(literally about 1/3 of a cent per gallon for just the water),
although a 3" meter adds 176.98/month, which, for a day is
about six bucks. But we'd still have to truck it somehow.

Point is, the water isn't what costs money.
It's the transportation.
I didn't know that when I first asked, but, now, the real
issue is simply how to get a sizeable amount of water up
a hill from a fire hydrant.

I /think/ we have a host of potential solutions:
1. Pay the 6 cents a gallon and be done with it,
2. DIY for much less but it's a lot of work.

We've lined up a spare 685 gallon water tank, and a
couple of light pickups, and we're sure we can rent
a 2-1/2 ton pickup (is that the carrying capacity?)
so, we think we're well on our way, thanks to your help.

Also, we've lined up the fire department to give us a
talk about defensible space, and we're working on getting
an agreement with the lowest-cost bulk water delivery
company in the area.

In addition, I've now "inspected" a half dozen residential
water setups, so we can help the neighbors who don't have
guys like you guys backing them up!

Thanks for all your help!

Pico Rico wrote, on Sun, 06 Jul 2014 15:20:49 -0700:

San Jose does not drink bay water.

You are correct.

San Jose pumps it out of the ground below San Jose,
which, interestingly, *probably* came from the bay when it
had flooded San Jose (just guessing), millions of years ago
when it was the middle of a fault block which dropped down,
which created the mountains on either side (because they
didn't drop down).

Stormin Mormon wrote, on Mon, 07 Jul 2014 07:04:03 -0400:

You mean I've been misinformed all this time?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nz_-KNNl-no

Where does the Santa Clara Valley get their water from?
http://www.valleywater.org/Services/...rComeFrom.aspx

Where does the San Jose Water Company get their water from?
http://www.sjwater.com/for_your_info.../water_supply/

It's not the bay!
But that video was great!

Tekkie® wrote, on Sun, 06 Jul 2014 13:11:03 -0400:

I was not familiar with "wharf hydrant" until you
used it. If my logic is correct it is basically a drain from the the tank to
the hydrant and is a gravity feed.

Here's a local government PDF on the wharf hydrants everyone up here has:
http://www.sccgov.org/sites/fmo/docs...Hyd-070910.pdf

They don't specify a pressure, but just a "positive flow":
"Wharf hydrants shall be maintained wet (full of water), and have a positive flow
at all times. Positive flow is considered to be water flowing across the full
diameter of the outlet when the valve is fully open."

Here's a FAQ which describes the need for the wharf hydrant:
http://www.sccgov.org/sites/fmo/wate...v%20012512.pdf

Here's how it's supposed to be painted:
http://www.sccgov.org/sites/fmo/wate...irehydrant.jpg

Tekkie® wrote, on Sun, 06 Jul 2014 13:16:23 -0400:

This is true. Back in my ff days we had boards with the different adapters
used. It all depended on which the water company used. Sometimes even the
fire truck manufacturers would have their own threads!

This local Santa Clara County government PDF says all the wharf hydrants
have to have the same threads (which makes sense):
http://www.sccgov.org/sites/fmo/docs...Hyd-070910.pdf

Wharf Hydrants are residential type fire hydrants with a single two
and one-half-inch (2-1/2-inch) outlet and a control valve (operated by a
pentagon nut with no handle), typically supplied from an on-site tank or
Shared Water System. (See Figure 1)

Hose threads for all hydrants shall meet National Standard Thread (NST)
requirements. Piping and appurtenances shall be a minimum diameter of
4-inches.

It's interesting to see in the diagram in that PDF the buried "thrust
block".

I had never seen a thrust block before ... have you?

On 7/7/2014 1:56 PM, DannyD. wrote:

Point is, the water isn't what costs money.
It's the transportation.

I think you will rapidly find out what I did,
there are VERY few men or women who will actually
haul water. I am one of the very few.

I predict the wear and break down of the vehicles
will be a major expense. Maybe not now, but some
time when a gear box or some other expensive part
goes out.

The haulers have price built in, both to pay the
wage, and also the equipment costs. If you decide
to water haul for your neighbors, I suggest you
charge about 80% or so of what the pro guys get.
I predict you'll have a lot of expenses you never
expected, and that will eat up all the funds.

Expect people to react with anger if you're busy
the day they run out, and you can't get to them
till the next day.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"DannyD." wrote in message
...
Pico Rico wrote, on Sun, 06 Jul 2014 15:20:49 -0700:

San Jose does not drink bay water.

You are correct.

San Jose pumps it out of the ground below San Jose,
which, interestingly, *probably* came from the bay when it
had flooded San Jose (just guessing), millions of years ago
when it was the middle of a fault block which dropped down,
which created the mountains on either side (because they
didn't drop down).

the ground water in San Jose is not millions of years old. Most of it is
put back by recharging with water from the Sierras.

"DannyD." wrote in message
...
Tekkie® wrote, on Sun, 06 Jul 2014 13:16:23 -0400:

This is true. Back in my ff days we had boards with the different
adapters
used. It all depended on which the water company used. Sometimes even
the
fire truck manufacturers would have their own threads!

This local Santa Clara County government PDF says all the wharf hydrants
have to have the same threads (which makes sense):
http://www.sccgov.org/sites/fmo/docs...Hyd-070910.pdf

Wharf Hydrants are residential type fire hydrants with a single two
and one-half-inch (2-1/2-inch) outlet and a control valve (operated by a
pentagon nut with no handle), typically supplied from an on-site tank or
Shared Water System. (See Figure 1)

Hose threads for all hydrants shall meet National Standard Thread (NST)
requirements. Piping and appurtenances shall be a minimum diameter of
4-inches.

It's interesting to see in the diagram in that PDF the buried "thrust
block".

I had never seen a thrust block before ... have you?


seen them and poured them. Do the math.

Pico Rico wrote, on Mon, 07 Jul 2014 20:33:25 -0700:

the ground water in San Jose is not millions of years old. Most of it is
put back by recharging with water from the Sierras.

I guess a lot depends on how deep the SJWC wells are, and how
permeable the rock is. For example, if the wells are 500 feet deep
(just guessing, based on the depth of our residential wells), then
the question is how long does it take for rainwater to percolate
down 500 feet (assuming it's all similar sandy stuff).

I don't know, but we can call the SJWC at 408-279-7900 to ask.
http://www.sjwater.com/for_your_info.../water_supply/

I googled for how old the water is that we drink, but can't find the answer:
http://www.valleywater.org/Services/...rComeFrom.aspx

I couldn't find it in this document either:
https://www.sanjoseca.gov/DocumentCenter/Home/View/518

So, we really don't know the answer.
At least nobody has yet shown us a reference to the answer.

Stormin Mormon wrote, on Mon, 07 Jul 2014 20:00:12 -0400:

Expect people to react with anger if you're busy
the day they run out, and you can't get to them
till the next day.

Some already get that way, but not many, when the internet
we set up for them goes out.

Most of the time, it's the kids having played with the
cables, although one time it was the radio in the
dish went south (that's one reason we gave up on the
nanobridges from ubiquiti).

DannyD. wrote, on Wed, 09 Jul 2014 02:58:02 +0000:

the question is how long does it take for rainwater to percolate
down 500 feet (assuming it's all similar sandy stuff).

It's surprisingly hard to find how *old* the water is that we drink.
This document merely intimates that age by saying:
https://msnucleus.org/watersheds/Gen...er_history.htm
"The many naturally occurring wells came from the Niles Cone
ground water basin. This basin is filled with layers of clay
and gravel intermittent with water was caused by the many
previous floods and torrential rains."

We don't know how *many* years is "many" previous floods though ...

The Wikipedia on water in California also doesn't give us an age.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_in_California
It just says:
The largest groundwater reservoirs are found in the Central Valley.[3]
The majority of the supply there is in the form of runoff that seeps
into the aquifer. The freshwater is usually found in deposits of gravel,
silt, and sand. Below these deposits lies a layer of deep sediment, a
relic of the era when the Pacific Ocean covered the area."

So, all we really know is that the layer of "deep sediment" is millions
of years old; but we don't really know how old the water in that sediment
is.

One important point though, is that Wikipedia article implicitly implies
that we're drinking "old" water because we pull out far more than is
going in, according to that article.

The only way that can be sustained for decades is if the water has pooled
for a very long period of time, in order to build up that surplus.

So, "implicitly", we know the water must be old; but we still don't know
how old it is.

DannyD. wrote, on Wed, 09 Jul 2014 02:58:02 +0000:

the question is how long does it take for rainwater to percolate
down 500 feet (assuming it's all similar sandy stuff).

Well, I found out that the oldest water ever sipped by a modern
human is "between 1 and 2.6 billion years old":
http://www.treehugger.com/clean-wate...-terrible.html
http://grist.org/list/maybe-dont-dri...ear-old-water/

But that water was deeeeeep at 1.5 miles while we're only talking wells
that are probably 500 to 1,000 feet deep for the San Jose water supply.

This mine water in Minnesota has been dated to pre-cambrian times, which
dates to an ancient sea that existed before life on earth existed:
http://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2011/0...on-range-mine/

So, certainly it's *possible* that the water in San Jose's deep wells
is millions of years old ... but again ... I can't find anything that
says how old that water is.

Can you?

DannyD. wrote, on Wed, 09 Jul 2014 03:09:17 +0000:

It's surprisingly hard to find how *old* the water is that we drink.

While the references quoted show our water "can" be billions of
years old, this document says that home well water is likely only
decades old, and, deeper wells (like those that San Jose Water Company
likely has) can easily be thousands of years old:
http://www.agwt.org/content/how-old-your-well-water
"Some deep confined ground water is thousands of years old and
yet is still slowly on the move."

Summarizing, depending on how deep the well is, the water can
be tens of years old to thousands of years to billions of years
old.

I still stick with the water under San Jose being millions of years
old, and a relic of the time when the area was flooded, but, we'd
need a reference to back up that hypothesis in order to be sure.

DannyD. wrote, on Wed, 09 Jul 2014 03:09:17 +0000:

It's surprisingly hard to find how *old* the water is that we drink.

This says they found water in Maryland a million years old:
http://content.usatoday.com/communit...der-maryland/1

Even the shallower groundwater in the aquifer was tens of thousands
to hundreds of thousands of years old.

"The analysis shows that water flowed from the land surface into
the deep aquifer during cooler periods in earth's history, when
glaciers covered much of the northeastern U.S. and sea level was
about 125 meters lower than it is today. During warmer periods in
earth's history, such as in modern times, higher sea levels slow
recharge of fresh water to the aquifer, due to a lower gradient
between the recharge and discharge areas."

So, we know that water in aquifers 'can' be decades old,
centuries old, thousands of years old, tens of thousands of
years old, millions of years old, and up to 2.6 billion years
old.

I still think the San Jose Water Company water "can" be millions
of years old - but I haven't found that reference cite yet.

DannyD. wrote, on Wed, 09 Jul 2014 03:09:17 +0000:

It's surprisingly hard to find how *old* the water is that we drink.

This Wikipedia on groundwater says the water "residence time" can vary
from "days to millennia" in age:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groundwater

Here's a picture which shows it commonly is centuries to millenia
depending on the depth of the well:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...water_flow.svg

We know SJWC has "deep wells" because they mention them in all their
planning documents; but we don't know how deep is deep.

For my residential neighbors, anything deeper than about 500 or
600 feet would probably be considered deep (mine, at 400 feet are
constantly shutting off for lack of water, for example).

DannyD. wrote, on Wed, 09 Jul 2014 03:09:17 +0000:

It's surprisingly hard to find how *old* the water is that we drink.

Found this: SANTA CLARA VALLEY GROUNDWATER BASIN INFORMATION
http://coyotevalley.sanjoseca.gov/co...PENDIX%20D.pdf

It says "Water-bearing geologic formations in the Santa Clara Valley include
rocks from the Pliocene through Holocene periods." It also says "it is
composed mostly of folded, faulted, and sheared marine sediments from the
Jura-Cretaceous period, and has been estimated to be about 50,000 feet thick."

So, while we know the rocks are "millions" of years old, it doesn't
necessarily say how old the water is that is contained within those rocks.

However, one must note the existence of "volcanic deposits" in that
water supply, which again, clearly, are millions of years old (since
volcanism stopped when the San Andreas Fault formed, due to the change
in direction of plate subduction).

A key to the age of the groundwater is the mobility of the water,
which varies, as noted by this statement "Groundwater is generally
unconfined in the younger alluvium and ranges from unconfined to
locally confined in the older alluvium."

So, the groundwater "could" be millions of years old, or it might not
be, depending on how confined it is.

One potentially telling statement is that "The basins northern
geologic boundary is formed by contact with thick low permeability
Bay Mud deposits at San Francisco Bay", which indicates it would
confine water, which would lead to an older age for that water.

Apparently none of the alluvium that filled the fault block that
became Silicon Valley is older than about 2 million years old though.

So, it seems that the oldest the water might be is only 2 million
years, and the youngest it could be is zero years.

"DannyD." wrote in
:


I don't know, but we can call the SJWC at 408-279-7900 to ask.
http://www.sjwater.com/for_your_info...ety/water_supp
ly/


Thanks man. I call them now from VT and post the answer for you.

On 07/08/2014 11:21 PM, DannyD. wrote:
So, certainly it's*possible* that the water in San Jose's deep wells
is millions of years old ... but again ... I can't find anything that
says how old that water is.

Can you?

Does it taste like dinosaur ****?

On Wed, 9 Jul 2014 02:58:02 +0000 (UTC), "DannyD."
wrote in

I googled for how old the water is that we drink, but can't find the answer:

On the subject of "old", you ought to consider that the s.w. of North
American has been through many cycles of long-term drought in geologic
history. Long-term drought is considered to be the cause of the
pre-Columbian "cliff dwellers" civilization disappearance from the New
Mexico and Arizona areas in the 10th century.

My guess is that the drought will be long term and you need a long
term solution such as a much deeper well.

Any idea what they charge to drill a very deep well?
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