wrote:
wrote:

On Tue, 02 May 2006 06:58:30 -0600, KC wrote:


What would a day without illegal aliens really be like?

Social Security would be in serious trouble more than now without
all those illegals.
Every dime put on a bogus SS number is a dime the governmemt will
never have to pay back. Some baby in Arkansas has his 40 quarters 100
times over and makes several hundred grand a year, in 40 states but he
will still only get a regular SS check when he is old.
If they really wanted to find the illegals they would put the IRS on
them, not the INS. Those are the folks who can follow the money.
On the other hand, if an "illegal" is willing to sign up, pay all his
taxes and work full time, I am not sure why we shouldn't give them a
green card.
If we really think SS can survive we need a ****load of new worker
bees at the bottom of the pyramid.
Also reject the idea that these folks are "stealing our jobs".
If some illegal, illiterate, non-english speaking Mexican peasant can
steal your dream job, a reassessmenmt of your career goals is in
order.



Nobody is claiming that the illegal aliens are taking dream jobs. But
it's certainly reasonable to assume that they are taking some jobs that
could be filled by groups with high unemployment. Young blacks, for
example, have a very high unemployment rate. Not all these illegals
are working farms. They are everywhere.



the issue is still that high unemployment groups REFUSE to take these
jobs as cooks, busing tables, maids, lawn care, construction
trades...... Many of these head for public service, i.e. government
(police, fire, sanitation, courts) So it is not confined to
agriculture as mentioned above. The high unemployment groups have high
dreasm and in many cases disregard menial work, except where they fit in
with other members of their economic and racial status.

Jim Yanik wrote:
"Joseph Meehan" wrote in
:

KC wrote:
..

I wonder.. Considering all but the Native Americans are illegal
immigrants or decedents of them I suspect it would be rather quiet.


"native" Americans -migrated- from Asia via the Bering land bridge
long ago.
Mexicans are of mostly SPANISH descent.

Au contraire...very few are (less than 10% IIRC). Most are mixed...Indian
(mostly) and Spanish/other. There are many more pure Indian than pure
Spanish.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

In article ,
wrote:

On Tue, 02 May 2006 06:58:30 -0600, KC wrote:

What would a day without illegal aliens really be like?
Social Security would be in serious trouble more than now without
all those illegals.

Every dime put on a bogus SS number is a dime the governmemt will
never have to pay back.

Doesn't come close to making up for the other costs to society. Some
emergency rooms in Southern California have shut down because they can
no longer afford to treat for free and the law prevents them from
refusing service -- so they close.

Also reject the idea that these folks are "stealing our jobs".
If some illegal, illiterate, non-english speaking Mexican peasant can
steal your dream job, a reassessmenmt of your career goals is in
order.

Not all Americans will go on to college, or graduate from high school
for that matter. A lot of these Americans used to go into the "trades".
Americans like my BIL. He put two kids through school as a journeyman
carpenter. Not much call for union carpenters in the home remodeling
market in the Bay Area anymore. Not with illegals willing to work under
the table, for cash, at far below union wages -- heck, often far below
minimum wages. My BIL law had to move to the midwest to find work.

I can't remember the last time I say a roofer who could speak English.
My daughters landlady just had her plumbing redone, by illegals, at 1/4
the cost of a union plumber.

So yes, illegals *are* taking our jobs. There are now, and will be more
in the future, school dropouts and high school graduates who will not be
able to find or compete for entry level jobs because illegals are
willing to take those jobs for very low wages. They work for low wages
because _they are illegal_ and because even the low wage they get here
is many times what they would get at home.

--
-Ernie-

"There are only two kinds of computer users -- those who have
suffered a catastrophic hard drive failure, and those who will."

Have you done your backup today?

wrote in message
ups.com...

Note that many European nations do not even allow foreigners to own
real-estate.

Neither does Mexico. When I lived in Tucson, a group at work looked into a
condo in Mexico in Porto Penesco on the coast of the Sea of Cortez.

We could not get permanent ownership so the value of your investment
diminished over time.


Charlie

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
"dadiOH" wrote in message
news:QLK5g.13$Th.3@trnddc03...
Doug Kanter wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

I for one would
pay a little more money to support our own workforce.


But, who would get this extra money if we kicked all illegals out of
the country? Have you ever seen the backbreaking work involved in
harvesting certain crops? Would you want your kids to do that kind of
work?

Sure, a bit of sweating won't hurt them. I remember watching kids get
hay
in - tossing around 100# bales all day. That doesn't mean they have to
continue doing it...they could learn more, get better jobs, etc. Bet
those
haying soon learned they better stay in school...
dadiOH


A very smart past president suggested that ALL teens should spend some
time working the menial jobs, like cleaning hotel rooms, public bathrooms,
etc., and be rewarded with a little scholarship money in return. Good
idea, but the idea never grew wings.
A darn good idea. They should start by using politicians first.

Doug Kanter wrote:

wrote in message
oups.com...


I for one would
pay a little more money to support our own workforce.



But, who would get this extra money if we kicked all illegals out of the
country? Have you ever seen the backbreaking work involved in harvesting
certain crops? Would you want your kids to do that kind of work?


My kids de-tasselled corn, laid tile, worked grocery deli's, restaurants
and material handling in factory. They could have picked crops, but I
would draw the line at spraying fields while kids were working. No
better way in the world of keeping kids out of trouble than to make them
too tired to do anything else and to have to hand the paycheck to mom
and dad.

dadiOH wrote:

Doug Kanter wrote:

wrote in message
groups.com...


I for one would
pay a little more money to support our own workforce.


But, who would get this extra money if we kicked all illegals out of
the country? Have you ever seen the backbreaking work involved in
harvesting certain crops? Would you want your kids to do that kind of
work?


Sure, a bit of sweating won't hurt them. I remember watching kids get hay
in - tossing around 100# bales all day. That doesn't mean they have to
continue doing it...they could learn more, get better jobs, etc. Bet those
haying soon learned they better stay in school...


And come back to operating the "family farm". I remember those.

On Tue, 02 May 2006 17:16:29 GMT, Robert Gammon
wrote:

Most of the folks that pick things like tomatoes, grapes, celery,
lettuce,...... are immigrants. Locals REFUSE to work these jobs.
Pushing the immigrants out would drive up labor rates for these jobs to
the point that locals WILL do it, but who wants to pay $2.50/lb for
tomatoes, $3.50 for a head of lettuce....

40 years ago "pickers" were called migrants .... traveling from Texas
to Florida during a season. Of late; (ten or so years) illegal slave
camps have been found in Florida. Migrants of those years (some) have
become land owners, be it small.


Oren
"My doctor says I have a malformed public-duty gland
and a natural deficiency in moral fiber, and that I am therefore
excused from saving Universes."

"Norminn" wrote in message
ink.net...
Doug Kanter wrote:

wrote in message
oups.com...


I for one would
pay a little more money to support our own workforce.



But, who would get this extra money if we kicked all illegals out of the
country? Have you ever seen the backbreaking work involved in harvesting
certain crops? Would you want your kids to do that kind of work?
My kids de-tasselled corn, laid tile, worked grocery deli's, restaurants
and material handling in factory. They could have picked crops, but I
would draw the line at spraying fields while kids were working. No better
way in the world of keeping kids out of trouble than to make them too
tired to do anything else and to have to hand the paycheck to mom and dad.


Probably wouldn't matter much if the spraying was taking place while the
kids were there, or not. Some spraying is done pretty close to harvest time,
and is still at full potency. Just handling the stuff is weird.

On 2 May 2006 15:31:52 GMT, Jim Yanik wrote:

" wrote in
roups.com:

Ahh you would pay LOTS more for all the things those illegals do.

But than US citizens would have more money to spend here in the US.
Much of what illegals from Mexico earn gets shipped back to MEXICO to
support their families and never gets spent HERE. Then there's the savings
from lower crimes

I doubt illegals commit as many crimes per person as most other
subgroups in the US, because they know if they are arrested, they'll
likely be deported. They try to keep a low profile.

Certainly I've never seen any statistical claim that they commit more
crimes.

,and less-crowded emergency rooms and the costs of giving
them free medical treatment,among many other services that the US has to
supply illegals.

It varies. In some places it's hard for illegals to get any other aid
except emergency rooms.

LOTS of savings there.Just ask the Colorado Governor(you can read what he
has to say on National Review online.)

Charlie Bress wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...

Note that many European nations do not even allow foreigners to own
real-estate.

Neither does Mexico.

Yes it does - excepting only areas within about 50 miles from borders
(borders includes oceans).
_______________

When I lived in Tucson, a group at work looked
into a condo in Mexico in Porto Penesco on the coast of the Sea of
Cortez.

We could not get permanent ownership so the value of your investment
diminished over time.

Real property in the "forbidden zone" is held in a fideocomiso. That is a
long term bank trust held for the benefit of the purchaser and is renewable.
Real property in such is no more likely to decrease/increase in value than
any other.


--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

On Tue, 02 May 2006 06:58:30 -0600, KC wrote:

May 01, 2006, 7:08 a.m.
A Day Without an Illegal Immigrant
SNIP of good post

The following from a director with SW BELL in Mexico City.


I spent five years working in Mexico.


I worked under a tourist visa for three months and could legally renew
it for three more months. After that you were working illegally. I was
technically illegal for three weeks waiting on the FM3 approval.


During that six months our Mexican and US Attorneys were working to
secure a permanent work visa called a FM3. It was in addition to my US
passport that I had to show each time I entered and left the country.
Barbara's was the same except hers did not permit her to work.


To apply for the FM3 I needed to submit the following notarized
originals (not copies) of my:


1. Birth certificates for Barbara and me.


2. Marriage certificate.


3. High school transcripts and proof of graduation.


4. College transcripts for every college I attended and proof of
graduation.


5. Two letters of recommendation from supervisors I had worked for at
least one year.


6. A letter from The ST. Louis Chief of Police indicating I had no
arrest record in the US and no outstanding warrants and was "a citizen
in good standing."


7. Finally; I had to write a letter about myself that clearly stated
why there was no Mexican citizen with my skills and why my skills were
important to Mexico. We called it our "I am the greatest person on
earth" letter. It was fun to write.


All of the above were in English that had to be translated into
Spanish and be certified as legal translations and our signatures
notarized. It produced a folder about 1.5 inches thick with English on
the left side and Spanish on the right.


Once they were completed Barbara and I spent about five hours
accompanied by a Mexican attorney touring Mexican government office
locations and being photographed and fingerprinted at least three
times. At each location (and we remember at least four locations) we
were instructed on Mexican tax, labor, housing, and criminal law and
that we were required to obey their laws or face the consequences. We
could not protest any of the government's actions or we would be
committing a felony. We paid out four thousand dollars in fees and
bribes to complete the process. When this was done we could legally
bring in our household goods that were held by US customs in Laredo
Texas. This meant we rented furniture in Mexico while awaiting our
goods. There were extensive fees involved here that the company paid.


We could not buy a home and were required to rent at very high rates
and under contract and compliance with Mexican law.


We were required to get a Mexican drivers license. This was an amazing
process. The company arranged for the licensing agency to come to our
headquarters location with their photography and finger print
equipment and the laminating machine. We showed our US license, were
photographed and fingerprinted again and issued the license instantly
after paying out a six dollar fee. We did not take a written or
driving test and never received instructions on the rules of the road.
Our only instruction was never give a policeman your license if
stopped and asked. We were instructed to hold it against the inside
window away from his grasp. If he got his hands on it you would have
to pay ransom to get it back.


We then had to pay and file Mexican income tax annually using the
number of our FM3 as our ID number. The companies Mexican accountants
did this for us and we just signed what they prepared. I was about
twenty legal size pages annually.


The FM 3 was good for three years and renewable for two more after
paying more fees.


Leaving the country meant turning in the FM# and certifying we were
leaving no debts behind and no outstanding legal affairs (warrants,
tickets or liens) before our household goods were released to customs.


It was a real adventure and If any of our senators or congressmen went
through it once they would have a different attitude toward Mexico.


The Mexican Government uses its vast military and police forces to
keep its citizens intimidated and compliant. They never protest at
their White House or government offices but do protest daily in front
of the United States Embassy. The US embassy looks like a strongly
reinforced fortress and during most protests the Mexican Military
surround the block with their men standing shoulder to shoulder in
full riot gear to protect the Embassy. These protests are never shown
on US or Mexican TV. There is a large public park across the street
where they do their protesting. Anything can cause a protest such as
proposed law changes in California or Texas.


Please feel free to share this with everyone who thinks we are being
hard on illegal immigrants.


--Andy Asberry recommends NewsGuy--

In article ,
mm wrote:


I doubt illegals commit as many crimes per person as most other
subgroups in the US, because they know if they are arrested, they'll
likely be deported. They try to keep a low profile.

Along with illegals who come here to work and stay you of trouble, there
are those who come the same way to make trouble. Mexican gangs are
becoming a real problem in several US cities. Drug running and other
smuggling across the border is growing. An open border causes more
problems that just the illegals who want to work.

--
-Ernie-

"There are only two kinds of computer users -- those who have
suffered a catastrophic hard drive failure, and those who will."

Have you done your backup today?

dadiOH wrote:
Charlie Bress wrote:

wrote in message
ups.com...

Note that many European nations do not even allow foreigners to own
real-estate.

Neither does Mexico.


Yes it does - excepting only areas within about 50 miles from borders
(borders includes oceans).
_______________

Many MANY retirement communities in the highlands of Mexico, populated
by US citizens largely. Homeowners who live a life of relative luxury on
very little more than SS + Pension income.

On Tue, 02 May 2006 15:16:40 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

"Larry Bud" wrote in message
oups.com...

Joseph Meehan wrote:
wrote:
Simply allowing illegal immigrants to become citizens
would be a slap in the face of every single LEGAL Immigrant
to this country that went through the process of
citizenship. I for one would be ****ed.

My my. Who said they would not need to go though a process to obtain
citizenship?

Every one of them by the fact that they are trying to circumvent the
existing process. There IS an avenue for them to have come here
legally, you know.

The funny thing is that they come here to work, which is more than can be
said about some of our legal citizens. You know: People who get a hangnail
and they're on disability for 3 years.



**cough**cough**welfare**cough**cough

On Tue, 02 May 2006 17:02:25 GMT, "Joseph Meehan"
wrote:

Larry Bud wrote:
Joseph Meehan wrote:
wrote:
Simply allowing illegal immigrants to become citizens
would be a slap in the face of every single LEGAL Immigrant
to this country that went through the process of
citizenship. I for one would be ****ed.

My my. Who said they would not need to go though a process to
obtain citizenship?

Every one of them by the fact that they are trying to circumvent the
existing process. There IS an avenue for them to have come here
legally, you know.

You really think so? Then why do they do otherwise?

Do you have any idea of the obstacles that have been thrown in their
way?


This whole issue seems to center around two issues:

1. I got mine and I don't want anyone else to get theirs.
2. Fear and hate of all "Them" If they are not "Us" they are
bad evil

No, the issue is #3

3. We have a process to come to the United States legally, so that you
are who you say you are, aren't a convicted criminal or gang banger or
child molestor or terrorist, and if you don't like the process we
have, then that's YOUR problem. Millions of other legal immigrants
didn't have a problem obeying our laws, and you shouldn't either.
Not only that, don't be shocked when there are some angry people in
the United States, people whose tax dollar go to provide you with
free stuff, even though you've invaded this country illegally.
America is a nation of LEGAL immigrants and rational people welcome
legal immigrants with open arms. But when you come here illegally,
then have the nerve to DEMAND the government disregard the fact that
you broke the law, expect a backlash.

We also have a long long waiting list. .....

So, when you are standng in line at the grocery store, or the DMV, and
someone in a hurry crashes the line, do you wave him on ahead of you?

In article .com, " wrote:
Ahh you would pay LOTS more for all the things those illegals do.

And there'd be more jobs for American citizens, too. I have a teenage son
who's having a hard time finding a job to earn money for college because the
job market is swamped with illegals.

Like food....

Its not a free lunch.

Frankly I think we would be better off to open the borders completely,

Oh, yeah, *great* idea. Don't perform any background checks on anybody.

We have enough problems already with our own, home-grown thugs, drug dealers,
and drunken drivers -- and you think we shouldn't even *try* to keep the
Mexican ones on their side of the border? You're an idiot.

invite them in to work for companies competing with stuff from say
China/

At least that way the work is in the US.

Yes, but the *money* wouldn't be -- illegal aliens transfer enormous amounts
of money to their relatives back home, south of the border.

If you were somehow able to force every illegal out our economy would
clollapse.

Oh, baloney, it wouldn't either. Our economy is doing _just_fine_. Haven't you
been paying *any* attention? The numbers were just released a few days ago:
GDP growth for the first quarter was 4.8%, which is fabulous.

Maybe if we forced every illegal out, then _our_own_ citizens would be able to
get treatment in emergency rooms.

China is well on to taking over us market. Having a bIG pool of
immigrants willing to work cheap would help us compete.

That's fine -- but they need to come here *legally*, so we know who's coming,
and can keep out the criminal element and the chronically unemployed.

all immigrants to stay here should pay taxes and be required tom learn
english, the official us language..

You really haven't thought this through at all, have you?

With them coming here illegally -- or with the completely open borders you
suggested -- just how do you propose that we enforce such laws, when we don't
have any way of knowing who is here or where they are?

of course i think we should elminate the income tax altogether and go
the fair tax route, a national sales tax but thats a seperate issue.

if immigrant breakls the law, its instant deportation with a 5 year
wait to return. a second offense they are deported permanetely.

Think it through... how do you tell if it's a second offense, how do you
enforce the 5-year wait -- if there's a completely open border? You just
don't get it. The big problem is WE DON'T KNOW WHO THEY ARE. No way at all to
tell if they're decent honest people just looking to make a buck, or if
they're gang-bangers, drug dealers, or what have you.

Think out of the box, the box isnt our friend..

Yeah, well, you'd do better to just think, period.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

In article , mm wrote:
On 2 May 2006 15:31:52 GMT, Jim Yanik wrote:

" wrote in
groups.com:

Ahh you would pay LOTS more for all the things those illegals do.

But than US citizens would have more money to spend here in the US.
Much of what illegals from Mexico earn gets shipped back to MEXICO to
support their families and never gets spent HERE. Then there's the savings
from lower crimes

I doubt illegals commit as many crimes per person as most other
subgroups in the US, because they know if they are arrested, they'll
likely be deported.

That's simply not true. The current policy is catch-and-release: they're given
a summons to appear at an immigration hearing to show cause why they should
not be deported, and then released.

Of course they never show up for the hearing.

And we can't catch them, because they've gotten another fake ID thirty minutes
after being released.

They try to keep a low profile.

Marching in public is a real low profile, isn't it?

Certainly I've never seen any statistical claim that they commit more
crimes.

I suspect you haven't been looking very hard. And you're not thinking too
clearly about what is, or isn't, a crime. Here are a few offenses that are
crimes in most states, that _almost_all_ illegal aliens commit:

- obtaining and carrying false identification
- driving without a valid driver's license
- driving without insurance


,and less-crowded emergency rooms and the costs of giving
them free medical treatment,among many other services that the US has to
supply illegals.

It varies. In some places it's hard for illegals to get any other aid
except emergency rooms.

Bull****. What's stopping them (or anyone else) from just going to the doctor?

LOTS of savings there.Just ask the Colorado Governor(you can read what he
has to say on National Review online.)


--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

In article , "Joseph Meehan" wrote:
KC wrote:
...

I wonder.. Considering all but the Native Americans are illegal
immigrants or decedents of them I suspect it would be rather quiet.

False. The vast majority of Americans are *legal* immigrants, or their
descendants.

[ I'm sure you didn't *really* mean "decedents"... :-) ]

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

In article , "Joseph Meehan" wrote:

The issue really seems to be the limit on the number or and time allowed
for non-citizens to remain in the US. Many I am sure, do not wish to become
citizens. Many do.

This whole issue seems to center around two issues:

1. I got mine and I don't want anyone else to get theirs.

2. Fear and hate of all "Them" If they are not "Us" they are bad evil

Not at all. The issue for most people I know is this and only this: without
*some* sort of control over who's coming in, we have no idea who's coming
here -- no way to tell the diference between Manuel the Mechanic who wants to
get a job, learn English, and raise his kids as Americans, and Domingo the
Drug Dealer, and Diego the Drunk Driver, and Consuela the Welfare Queen whose
only ambition is to have her child born a U.S. citizen at taxpayer expense and
then continue to live here, again at taxpayer expense, and Jose the Terrorist
who wants to set off a radioactive bomb in Chicago, and Ahmed the Terrorist
who's trying to blow up Los Angeles.

I have no problem with Manuel coming here. I welcome Manuel.

But I sure as hell want to keep Domingo, Diego, Consuela, Jose, and Ahmed OUT.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

"Doug Kanter" wrote in
:

"Goedjn" wrote in message
...

But, who would get this extra money if we kicked all illegals out of
the country? Have you ever seen the backbreaking work involved in
harvesting certain crops? Would you want your kids to do that kind of
work?

Yes.

When did you start being afraid of hard work?



I'm not. Follow me around the garden for a long Saturday and you'll be
ready for an ambulance. But I can envision a ****load of kids who'd be
steered away from this kind of work by parents who think it's "for
others".



hasn't it always been like that?

(parents generally try to give their offspring the best possible start in
life,if they can. Often,they spoil them.)

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Robert Gammon wrote in
. com:

dadiOH wrote:
Doug Kanter wrote:

wrote in message
oups.com...


I for one would
pay a little more money to support our own workforce.

But, who would get this extra money if we kicked all illegals out of
the country? Have you ever seen the backbreaking work involved in
harvesting certain crops? Would you want your kids to do that kind
of work?


Sure, a bit of sweating won't hurt them. I remember watching kids
get hay in - tossing around 100# bales all day. That doesn't mean
they have to continue doing it...they could learn more, get better
jobs, etc. Bet those haying soon learned they better stay in
school...



Here's the problem that we face in agricultural communities and in big
cities.

Most of the folks that pick things like tomatoes, grapes, celery,
lettuce,...... are immigrants. Locals REFUSE to work these jobs.
Pushing the immigrants out would drive up labor rates for these jobs
to the point that locals WILL do it, but who wants to pay $2.50/lb for
tomatoes, $3.50 for a head of lettuce....

that's the way supply and demand works.
It skews things to bring in outsiders willing to work for less money and
benefits.

Most of the folks in the back of restaurants, hotels and the like are
immigrants, especially in the big cities, especially those in the
south and west. Drive these folks out and a budget meal at a Mexican,
Chinese, Italian restaurant will cost over $25 not including wine. A
Motel 6 room will cost over $100/night.

Lawn service crews, roofing crews, construction trades are all heavily
populated with first and second generation immigrants.

Consturction trades used to be a semi-skilled,good paying job,that
highschool dropouts or those not college-bound could take and earn a decent
living,and if they wanted,go on to better jobs.

These immigrants don't displace local worker, they take jobs that
locals refuse to take because the jobs are too low in pay, the job
keeps them out in the sun all day, the work is seasonal, the work is
physically difficult, etc.

Throwing out the immigrants (legal or illegal) solves NOTHING.
Kicking them out creates HUGE problems in many cities with basic
services.

If we want to sharply cut back the flow of illegal immigrants to the
USA, the issue is how to create better economic conditions in the
areas where they come from so the incentive to come to the USA is
reduced.


Colorado Governor Tancredo believes otherwise;
http://article.nationalreview.com/%3...YWYxMThkZmE2MW
ZhMmVjMWM%3D&e=14815&sa=X&oi=news&ct=result&cd=1



--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

(Doug Miller) wrote in
. com:

In article , "Joseph
Meehan" wrote:

The issue really seems to be the limit on the number or and time
allowed
for non-citizens to remain in the US. Many I am sure, do not wish to
become citizens. Many do.

This whole issue seems to center around two issues:

1. I got mine and I don't want anyone else to get theirs.

2. Fear and hate of all "Them" If they are not "Us" they are bad
evil

Not at all. The issue for most people I know is this and only this:
without *some* sort of control over who's coming in, we have no idea
who's coming here -- no way to tell the diference between Manuel the
Mechanic who wants to get a job, learn English, and raise his kids as
Americans, and Domingo the Drug Dealer, and Diego the Drunk Driver,
and Consuela the Welfare Queen whose only ambition is to have her
child born a U.S. citizen at taxpayer expense and then continue to
live here, again at taxpayer expense,

(and have her entire family then able to legally join her in the US)

and Jose the Terrorist who wants
to set off a radioactive bomb in Chicago, and Ahmed the Terrorist
who's trying to blow up Los Angeles.

One other that worries me is "typhoid mary",the infected illegal who brings
a new disease into the US.
Ellis Island used to quarantine those doctors thought were sick.
Then there's MS-13 and other gang members.

I have no problem with Manuel coming here. I welcome Manuel.

But I sure as hell want to keep Domingo, Diego, Consuela, Jose, and
Ahmed OUT.


along with MECHA and La Raza and all the other ones who want to create the
Mexican State of Aztlan out of the Southwest US..

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Bob Ward wrote:
On Tue, 02 May 2006 17:02:25 GMT, "Joseph Meehan"
wrote:

Larry Bud wrote:
Joseph Meehan wrote:
wrote:
Simply allowing illegal immigrants to become citizens
would be a slap in the face of every single LEGAL Immigrant
to this country that went through the process of
citizenship. I for one would be ****ed.

My my. Who said they would not need to go though a process to
obtain citizenship?

Every one of them by the fact that they are trying to circumvent the
existing process. There IS an avenue for them to have come here
legally, you know.

You really think so? Then why do they do otherwise?

Do you have any idea of the obstacles that have been thrown in
their way?


This whole issue seems to center around two issues:

1. I got mine and I don't want anyone else to get theirs.
2. Fear and hate of all "Them" If they are not "Us" they are
bad evil

No, the issue is #3

3. We have a process to come to the United States legally, so that
you are who you say you are, aren't a convicted criminal or gang
banger or child molestor or terrorist, and if you don't like the
process we have, then that's YOUR problem. Millions of other legal
immigrants didn't have a problem obeying our laws, and you
shouldn't either.
Not only that, don't be shocked when there are some angry people in
the United States, people whose tax dollar go to provide you with
free stuff, even though you've invaded this country illegally.
America is a nation of LEGAL immigrants and rational people welcome
legal immigrants with open arms. But when you come here illegally,
then have the nerve to DEMAND the government disregard the fact that
you broke the law, expect a backlash.

We also have a long long waiting list. .....

So, when you are standng in line at the grocery store, or the DMV, and
someone in a hurry crashes the line, do you wave him on ahead of you?

You analogy does not apply. The line at the grocery store is real, the
waiting list for entry into the US is a political decision to satisfy those
who hate and fear those who are different.

--
Joseph Meehan

Dia duit

Joseph Meehan wrote:
KC wrote:
..

I wonder.. Considering all but the Native Americans are illegal
immigrants or decedents of them I suspect it would be rather quiet.


That's a silly concept and I hope you know it.
You can't have an illegal immigrant, in fact you
can't have an immigrant, without a country to
immigrate to. The fact that Congress and the U.S.
government has never adequately addressed the
Indian tribes and makes their members U.S.
citizens as well as citizens of separate nations
may be a factor in your confused mind. The United
States of American is a nation and it recognizes
many of the conquered native American groups as
nations.

Many, if not most, of the native American tribes
did not have the concept of individual land
ownership. They had the concept of territory and
generally whatever they occupied or could occupy
by warfare they called their territory. Europeans
brought the concept of individual land ownership
and of state to most tribes.

The idea of calling citizens of the United States
of American who have lived in the country for
generations "illegal immigrants" is insulting.
The idea of calling their forefathers who legally
immigrated to this country "illegal immigrants" is
insulting. The idea of calling those who formed
this country "illegal immigrants" is insulting.

Seems like you have insulted all but a very minor
(and illegally present) group of people in this
country.

Reminds me of the people addressed by a lady on TV
who said that marching with a Mexican flag in the
U.S. was insulting. And it is.

Doug Kanter wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...


I for one would
pay a little more money to support our own workforce.



But, who would get this extra money if we kicked all illegals out of the
country? Have you ever seen the backbreaking work involved in harvesting
certain crops? Would you want your kids to do that kind of work?


Ah, then explain the cotton gin! I wonder how
many people went around screaming that the country
would come to a halt if there weren't any slaves
to pick cotton.

The simple fact is that ingenuity would probably
find a solution cheaper than the current back
breaking stoop labor if illegals were not
available. I think one could make a tight
argument that illegals are inhibiting progress.

Doug Kanter wrote:
"dadiOH" wrote in message
news:QLK5g.13$Th.3@trnddc03...

Doug Kanter wrote:

wrote in message
egroups.com...


I for one would
pay a little more money to support our own workforce.


But, who would get this extra money if we kicked all illegals out of
the country? Have you ever seen the backbreaking work involved in
harvesting certain crops? Would you want your kids to do that kind of
work?

Sure, a bit of sweating won't hurt them. I remember watching kids get hay
in - tossing around 100# bales all day. That doesn't mean they have to
continue doing it...they could learn more, get better jobs, etc. Bet
those
haying soon learned they better stay in school...
dadiOH



A very smart past president suggested that ALL teens should spend some time
working the menial jobs, like cleaning hotel rooms, public bathrooms, etc.,
and be rewarded with a little scholarship money in return. Good idea, but
the idea never grew wings.


It didn't grow wings because of child labor laws,
which really extended to middle and late teens
that made it uneconomical to employ teens. I was
fortunate to be employed as a teen after school in
the 50's, but the employer said never again--too
much paper work. Current laws would not allow a
16 year old to be employed in such a job.

In article , "George E. Cawthon" wrote:
Doug Kanter wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...


I for one would
pay a little more money to support our own workforce.



But, who would get this extra money if we kicked all illegals out of the
country? Have you ever seen the backbreaking work involved in harvesting
certain crops? Would you want your kids to do that kind of work?


Ah, then explain the cotton gin! I wonder how
many people went around screaming that the country
would come to a halt if there weren't any slaves
to pick cotton.

The simple fact is that ingenuity would probably
find a solution cheaper than the current back
breaking stoop labor if illegals were not
available. I think one could make a tight
argument that illegals are inhibiting progress.

I don't often agree with you... but you make an excellent point here, one
which I plan to borrow for future discussions. Hope you don't charge
royalties... :-)

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

"Bob Ward" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 02 May 2006 15:16:40 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

"Larry Bud" wrote in message
roups.com...

Joseph Meehan wrote:
wrote:
Simply allowing illegal immigrants to become citizens
would be a slap in the face of every single LEGAL Immigrant
to this country that went through the process of
citizenship. I for one would be ****ed.

My my. Who said they would not need to go though a process to
obtain
citizenship?

Every one of them by the fact that they are trying to circumvent the
existing process. There IS an avenue for them to have come here
legally, you know.

The funny thing is that they come here to work, which is more than can be
said about some of our legal citizens. You know: People who get a hangnail
and they're on disability for 3 years.



**cough**cough**welfare**cough**cough

Not welfare. Disability. The way some people use it, the end result is the
same, though.

"Jim Yanik" wrote in message
.. .
"Doug Kanter" wrote in
:

"Goedjn" wrote in message
...

But, who would get this extra money if we kicked all illegals out of
the country? Have you ever seen the backbreaking work involved in
harvesting certain crops? Would you want your kids to do that kind of
work?

Yes.

When did you start being afraid of hard work?



I'm not. Follow me around the garden for a long Saturday and you'll be
ready for an ambulance. But I can envision a ****load of kids who'd be
steered away from this kind of work by parents who think it's "for
others".



hasn't it always been like that?

(parents generally try to give their offspring the best possible start in
life,if they can. Often,they spoil them.)
Jim Yanik

So, which jobs are off limits for a "good start"?

"George E. Cawthon" wrote in message
...
Doug Kanter wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...


I for one would
pay a little more money to support our own workforce.



But, who would get this extra money if we kicked all illegals out of the
country? Have you ever seen the backbreaking work involved in harvesting
certain crops? Would you want your kids to do that kind of work?
Ah, then explain the cotton gin! I wonder how many people went around
screaming that the country would come to a halt if there weren't any
slaves to pick cotton.

The simple fact is that ingenuity would probably find a solution cheaper
than the current back breaking stoop labor if illegals were not available.
I think one could make a tight argument that illegals are inhibiting
progress.

Some crops cannot be harvested by machines. If they could be, the machines
would exist. Many cashiers can't get a container of strawberries into a
grocery bag without ****ing them up. No machine will harvest them safely, at
least not until robotics are much further along. A long list of other crops
are also too delicate for anything but human handling.

Jim Yanik wrote:

snip


Consturction trades used to be a semi-skilled,good paying job,that
highschool dropouts or those not college-bound could take and earn a decent
living,and if they wanted,go on to better jobs.


snip




Sounds like an apprenticeship or on-the-job-training.

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
"Jim Yanik" wrote in message
.. .
"Doug Kanter" wrote in
:

"Goedjn" wrote in message
...

But, who would get this extra money if we kicked all illegals out of
the country? Have you ever seen the backbreaking work involved in
harvesting certain crops? Would you want your kids to do that kind of
work?

Yes.

When did you start being afraid of hard work?



I'm not. Follow me around the garden for a long Saturday and you'll be
ready for an ambulance. But I can envision a ****load of kids who'd be
steered away from this kind of work by parents who think it's "for
others".



hasn't it always been like that?

(parents generally try to give their offspring the best possible start
in
life,if they can. Often,they spoil them.)
Jim Yanik

So, which jobs are off limits for a "good start"?

Any that are physically dangerous, or force the kids to associate with
druggies and other low-lifes, or immoral or illegal. I could probably come
up with some others. Anything that interfered with getting a decent
education, of course, like a night-shift job during a school year.

aem sends...

Joseph Meehan wrote:

KC wrote:
..

I wonder.. Considering all but the Native Americans are illegal
immigrants or decedents of them I suspect it would be rather quiet.

They're immigrants from Asia. You think they grew from seed?

--
Cheers,
Bev
================================================== ========
"The last thing you want is for somebody to commit suicide
before executing them."
-Gary Deland, former Utah director for corrections

Doug Kanter wrote:

wrote:

I for one would
pay a little more money to support our own workforce.

But, who would get this extra money if we kicked all illegals out of the
country? Have you ever seen the backbreaking work involved in harvesting
certain crops? Would you want your kids to do that kind of work?

How about the kids who don't have the skills to flip burgers? You'd
rather pay them to hang around recycling centers drinking out of bottles
in paper bags?

--
Cheers,
Bev
================================================== ========
"The last thing you want is for somebody to commit suicide
before executing them."
-Gary Deland, former Utah director for corrections

Doug Kanter wrote:

"Larry Bud" wrote:
Joseph Meehan wrote:
wrote:
Simply allowing illegal immigrants to become citizens
would be a slap in the face of every single LEGAL Immigrant
to this country that went through the process of
citizenship. I for one would be ****ed.

My my. Who said they would not need to go though a process to obtain
citizenship?

Every one of them by the fact that they are trying to circumvent the
existing process. There IS an avenue for them to have come here
legally, you know.

The funny thing is that they come here to work, which is more than can be
said about some of our legal citizens. You know: People who get a hangnail
and they're on disability for 3 years.

Fine, let's work out a trade. For each lout we send to Mexico they can
send us one worker. Maybe we can be talked into giving them TWO louts
for every worker. I'd go for that...

--
Cheers,
Bev
================================================== ========
"The last thing you want is for somebody to commit suicide
before executing them."
-Gary Deland, former Utah director for corrections

Robert Gammon wrote:

dadiOH wrote:
Doug Kanter wrote:

wrote in message
oups.com...


I for one would
pay a little more money to support our own workforce.

But, who would get this extra money if we kicked all illegals out of
the country? Have you ever seen the backbreaking work involved in
harvesting certain crops? Would you want your kids to do that kind of
work?


Sure, a bit of sweating won't hurt them. I remember watching kids get hay
in - tossing around 100# bales all day. That doesn't mean they have to
continue doing it...they could learn more, get better jobs, etc. Bet those
haying soon learned they better stay in school...



Here's the problem that we face in agricultural communities and in big
cities.

Most of the folks that pick things like tomatoes, grapes, celery,
lettuce,...... are immigrants. Locals REFUSE to work these jobs.

So locals would rather not work than work for the wages the illegals
accept? Then how can the locals survive?

Pushing the immigrants out would drive up labor rates for these jobs to
the point that locals WILL do it, but who wants to pay $2.50/lb for
tomatoes, $3.50 for a head of lettuce....

We already pay $2.50/lb for tomatoes. Well, I don't, but people who buy
them at Ralph's do. We'll adjust.

Most of the folks in the back of restaurants, hotels and the like are
immigrants, especially in the big cities, especially those in the south
and west. Drive these folks out and a budget meal at a Mexican,
Chinese, Italian restaurant will cost over $25 not including wine. A
Motel 6 room will cost over $100/night.

It already does in some places. We'll adjust. We'll see budget motels
again. There's no way on earth I'm going to pay $80 just to sleep.

Lawn service crews, roofing crews, construction trades are all heavily
populated with first and second generation immigrants.

Gardeners used to be Japanese. The Japanese worked hard, saved their
money and hired gardeners themselves. That's the way it works.

These immigrants don't displace local worker, they take jobs that locals
refuse to take because the jobs are too low in pay, the job keeps them
out in the sun all day, the work is seasonal, the work is physically
difficult, etc.

So Americans will starve before they do stoop labor? Want to bet money
on that?

Throwing out the immigrants (legal or illegal) solves NOTHING. Kicking
them out creates HUGE problems in many cities with basic services.

It takes pressure off our schools, hospitals, jails and freeways.
That's enough. We'll adjust.

If we want to sharply cut back the flow of illegal immigrants to the
USA, the issue is how to create better economic conditions in the areas
where they come from so the incentive to come to the USA is reduced.

You mean like buy land in Mexico and hire the locals to do stuff in
their home towns? Oh, wait, there are laws about foreigners owning land
in Mexico...

How about enforcing the existing laws against hiring illegals? Hang a
few employers and the rest will get the point.

--
Cheers,
Bev
================================================== ========
"The last thing you want is for somebody to commit suicide
before executing them."
-Gary Deland, former Utah director for corrections

Doug Miller wrote:
In article , "George E. Cawthon" wrote:
Doug Kanter wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...


I for one would
pay a little more money to support our own workforce.



But, who would get this extra money if we kicked all illegals out of the
country? Have you ever seen the backbreaking work involved in harvesting
certain crops? Would you want your kids to do that kind of work?


Ah, then explain the cotton gin! I wonder how
many people went around screaming that the country
would come to a halt if there weren't any slaves
to pick cotton.

The simple fact is that ingenuity would probably
find a solution cheaper than the current back
breaking stoop labor if illegals were not
available. I think one could make a tight
argument that illegals are inhibiting progress.

I don't often agree with you... but you make an excellent point here, one
which I plan to borrow for future discussions. Hope you don't charge
royalties... :-)

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.



Doug-

George makes a point I totally agree with. I've been getting beat up
for a couple of years now for espousing it...............how cheap
labor inhibits innovation.

To accomplish work one can use labor or capital (tools)

If the cost of labor is low (or in the extreme; free) then there is
littile or no economic incenttive to employ capital.

I get a magazine, The Economist, that had an article that talked about
how different countires have handled labor shortages.

It talked about the mfg & automotive industires in Germany & Japan

Japan culturally was unwilling to suffer the influx of a large cheap
labor force, the Germans didn't mind.

The Germans solved (at least temporaily) their labor shortage buy
having Turk "guest workers" now they're dealing with that societal
impact.

The Japanese got robots. They don't strike, have babies, get
sick or vote.

My point (& George's I believe as well) get rid of the cheap labor &
the market will adapt.

w/o biligual ed, gangs, bankrupt hospital ER depts & over crowded
schools & protest marches.

If one could get nails driven by hand for free, there would be no need
for compressors or nail guns.

If one could get trenches dug for free................no need for heavy
equipment.

With the advent of cheap heavy duty computer processing power it would
be only a short time until tomatoes, strawberries, asparagus, etc were
harvested 24/7 by robot

w/ IR / UV vision & electronic sinffers they'd only pick the ripe
stuff or maybe even sort it on the fly!

cheers
Bob

In article ,
wrote:

On 3 May 2006 00:02:59 GMT, Jim Yanik wrote:

Consturction trades used to be a semi-skilled,good paying job,that
highschool dropouts or those not college-bound could take and earn a decent
living,and if they wanted,go on to better jobs.

That was the result of unions driving up the cost of labor. I find it
interesting the same conservatives who hate unions also hate the
immigrants.

I find it interesting that the same liberals who love unions also love
the immigrants.

(who are taking the union jobs at much lower than union wages)

--
-Ernie-

"There are only two kinds of computer users -- those who have
suffered a catastrophic hard drive failure, and those who will."

Have you done your backup today?

Doug Kanter wrote:
"George E. Cawthon" wrote in message
...
Doug Kanter wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...


I for one would
pay a little more money to support our own workforce.



But, who would get this extra money if we kicked all illegals out of the
country? Have you ever seen the backbreaking work involved in harvesting
certain crops? Would you want your kids to do that kind of work?
Ah, then explain the cotton gin! I wonder how many people went around
screaming that the country would come to a halt if there weren't any
slaves to pick cotton.

The simple fact is that ingenuity would probably find a solution cheaper
than the current back breaking stoop labor if illegals were not available.
I think one could make a tight argument that illegals are inhibiting
progress.

Some crops cannot be harvested by machines. If they could be, the machines
would exist. Many cashiers can't get a container of strawberries into a
grocery bag without ****ing them up. No machine will harvest them safely, at
least not until robotics are much further along. A long list of other crops
are also too delicate for anything but human handling.


...................Some crops cannot be harvested by machines. If they
could be, the machines would exist. .............


not if the current alternative is cheaper, if I can have fruit hand
picked for less than the ammortized cost of a machine then there is no
incentive for such a machine to exist.

.. ......No machine will harvest them safely, at least not until
robotics are much further along. A long list of other crops are also
too delicate for anything but human handling......

Again at what relative cost?

as long as we have artificially cheap labor innovation in those fields
will be stunted

no machine could ever fly,
one could ever fly faster than the speed of sound,
it would be impossbile to send a man to the moon & return safely
how could one ever operate on a persons heart
active suspension in a production automobile? too expensive!


what else do we put on the list?

cheers
Bob