On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 22:24:16 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 4/15/2012 9:51 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 18:54:44 -0500, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 4/15/2012 2:07 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 13:00:28 -0500, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:
Simply put, if this is too much money for you to spend and or you are a
hobbyist you really should not be looking at Festool.
If you were earning a living with your tools it is a no brainer.

What I'm trying to figure out is why you're not using your dust
collector. Ditto a $100 portable model for onsite use. The sound
level is about the same: quiet.

My DC does not filter as well as the twin HEPA filters in my Festool
Vac. I use the Festool for the Track saw, both Festool sanders, and the
Domino, oh and the Kreg pocket hole jig. The sanders produce very fine
dust which I do not see.

You could have bought HEPA cannister filters for the DC. They cost
1/4-1/2 what a CT costs. I have the felt bags good for 1u, slightly
out of the HEPA range of 0.3u.


The Festool is much "quieter" than any $100 unit and my DC for that

Almost all DCs I've heard are significantly quieter than any shop vac
other than the Festools. My Griz 1029 wouldn't wake up a napper in
the next room, or possibly in the same room.


matter. When used with any of my power tools I cannot hear the Festool
vac running.

Nor can I hear my DC when any other tools are running.shrug

I think it would be difficult to take a 6' tall dust collector into a
customers house....


And I could have spent $400 of my time setting up "every thing" to make
things work like a Festool Vac. And hauling a DC to a clients house is
out of the question. Time is money.

Jesus H. Christ! OK, for your diminished reading capacity, see the
pretty pictures of the style of _portable_ DCs to which I referred:
http://tinyurl.com/6txsmpc
http://tinyurl.com/6t8cn84
http://tinyurl.com/7aovct9
I guess they're no longer $100.

--
A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner, so if
one's life is cold and bare he can blame none but himself.
-- Louis L'Amour

On 4/16/2012 9:41 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 22:24:16 -0500, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 4/15/2012 9:51 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 18:54:44 -0500, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 4/15/2012 2:07 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 13:00:28 -0500, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:
Simply put, if this is too much money for you to spend and or you are a
hobbyist you really should not be looking at Festool.
If you were earning a living with your tools it is a no brainer.

What I'm trying to figure out is why you're not using your dust
collector. Ditto a $100 portable model for onsite use. The sound
level is about the same: quiet.

My DC does not filter as well as the twin HEPA filters in my Festool
Vac. I use the Festool for the Track saw, both Festool sanders, and the
Domino, oh and the Kreg pocket hole jig. The sanders produce very fine
dust which I do not see.

You could have bought HEPA cannister filters for the DC. They cost
1/4-1/2 what a CT costs. I have the felt bags good for 1u, slightly
out of the HEPA range of 0.3u.


The Festool is much "quieter" than any $100 unit and my DC for that

Almost all DCs I've heard are significantly quieter than any shop vac
other than the Festools. My Griz 1029 wouldn't wake up a napper in
the next room, or possibly in the same room.


matter. When used with any of my power tools I cannot hear the Festool
vac running.

Nor can I hear my DC when any other tools are running.shrug

I think it would be difficult to take a 6' tall dust collector into a
customers house....


And I could have spent $400 of my time setting up "every thing" to make
things work like a Festool Vac. And hauling a DC to a clients house is
out of the question. Time is money.

Jesus H. Christ! OK, for your diminished reading capacity, see the
pretty pictures of the style of _portable_ DCs to which I referred:
http://tinyurl.com/6txsmpc
http://tinyurl.com/6t8cn84
http://tinyurl.com/7aovct9
I guess they're no longer $100.

If that is what floats your boat great. I'll pass.

On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 22:27:36 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 4/15/2012 9:54 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 17:48:45 -0700, Doug Winterburn
wrote:

On 04/15/2012 04:34 PM, Leon wrote:
On 4/15/2012 1:47 PM, Jack wrote:
On 4/15/2012 2:00 PM, Leon wrote:
On 4/15/2012 12:20 PM, Jack wrote:

Toyota, Lincoln. Picking a Lincoln over a Toyota would be a step down in
quality. If you value bling over value get the Lincoln.

Let me guess, you own a Toyota?

Absolutely and after having owned 3 other brand trucks in the past 30
years I am extremely happy with my decision to go Toyota this time. And
I can say that with out bad mouthing or making fun of those that don't
agree with my choice.


I'm waiting for the Toyota diesel PU. Dragging around a 5th wheel with
a gasoline engine is not a lot of fun, so my 2004 duramax will have to
do until then.

Yeah, a diesel can be great for heavy duty hauling.

I see that they finally put out a Tundra with a 4-cyl engine. Unless
I'm hauling a ton of gravel, my small V-8 is way overkill for my
needs. I'd love to have bought a hybrid pickup but Toyota never made
one.

Where exactly did you see that. The Toyota site does not list a 4
banger for a Tundra.

www.toyota.com, Build your Tundra, Standard Cab, Standard Bed, oops,
4.0L V6. I misread it.

--
A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner, so if
one's life is cold and bare he can blame none but himself.
-- Louis L'Amour

On 4/16/2012 9:41 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 22:24:16 -0500, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 4/15/2012 9:51 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 18:54:44 -0500, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 4/15/2012 2:07 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 13:00:28 -0500, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:
Simply put, if this is too much money for you to spend and or you are a
hobbyist you really should not be looking at Festool.
If you were earning a living with your tools it is a no brainer.

What I'm trying to figure out is why you're not using your dust
collector. Ditto a $100 portable model for onsite use. The sound
level is about the same: quiet.

My DC does not filter as well as the twin HEPA filters in my Festool
Vac. I use the Festool for the Track saw, both Festool sanders, and the
Domino, oh and the Kreg pocket hole jig. The sanders produce very fine
dust which I do not see.

You could have bought HEPA cannister filters for the DC. They cost
1/4-1/2 what a CT costs. I have the felt bags good for 1u, slightly
out of the HEPA range of 0.3u.


The Festool is much "quieter" than any $100 unit and my DC for that

Almost all DCs I've heard are significantly quieter than any shop vac
other than the Festools. My Griz 1029 wouldn't wake up a napper in
the next room, or possibly in the same room.


matter. When used with any of my power tools I cannot hear the Festool
vac running.

Nor can I hear my DC when any other tools are running.shrug

I think it would be difficult to take a 6' tall dust collector into a
customers house....


And I could have spent $400 of my time setting up "every thing" to make
things work like a Festool Vac. And hauling a DC to a clients house is
out of the question. Time is money.

Jesus H. Christ! OK, for your diminished reading capacity, see the
pretty pictures of the style of _portable_ DCs to which I referred:
http://tinyurl.com/6txsmpc
http://tinyurl.com/6t8cn84
http://tinyurl.com/7aovct9
I guess they're no longer $100.

FOR YOUR diminished read capacity... you asked,

What I'm trying to figure out is why you're not using your dust
collector. Ditto a $100 portable model for onsite use. The sound
level is about the same: quiet.


You asked why I am not using MY DC..

I gave my answer and then you think I suggest to buy a 3rd dust
collection machine when I have everything I need already!!!

If you could stay focused as to what you ask and apply my answers to
YOUR SPECIFIC questions you might learn something.

Bun nooooo I guess you just like to be contrary.

Bill writes:
Bill wrote:

When I first started coming to the Wreck, a little before I "got
interested" in shop renovation, Lew helped me formulate the idea of
making a 6-7 foot workbench top by glueing together, face-to-face, a
bunch of 2-by dimensional lumber (SYP, 2by10s, ripped in half).

Being naive, I almost believed my glue-ups would be almost as nice as my
pictures. Now, being more familiar with jointers, I fear
"near-disaster", if I don't joint at one edge (which will end up on the
top) and the faces too. I have been encouraged to run glue-ups of 4
boards, say, through my planer, and I can see how that could help, but I
can see how things could work out a whole lot better if all of the
boards went through a jointer first, before and after glueing--not that
I have one.

Bill


Just curious, who would recommend me to use (or not use) a jointer for
this project (thinking the process and results would be better)?

If the only thing you plan on ever building is your workbench, forget
about the jointer and borrow a hand plane from someone.

If you plan on building cabinets or furniture, a jointer would be a
nice addition to your shop.

For most people, a 6 inch jointer suffices.

A used stanley #4, #5 and #7 would also suffice, albeit require a
learning curve.

On 4/16/2012 11:15 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:

Just curious, who would recommend me to use (or not use) a jointer for
this project (thinking the process and results would be better)?

If the only thing you plan on ever building is your workbench, forget
about the jointer and borrow a hand plane from someone.

If you plan on building cabinets or furniture, a jointer would be a
nice addition to your shop.

For most people, a 6 inch jointer suffices.

A used stanley #4, #5 and #7 would also suffice, albeit require a
learning curve.

Thanks Scott. I've collected the planes at auction. I'll need to sharpen
them and find something to hold the boards (not as easy as it sounds).
I'm sure the whole process will give me a lot of joy--FAR MORE than I'd
get by just pushing the boards through a jointer! ; )

I'll still look for the number of that industrial sander...

On 4/15/2012 3:07 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 13:00:28 -0500, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 4/15/2012 12:20 PM, Jack wrote:

I have met a ton
of people that think a Toyota Pick up is good enough, and they don't
need to spend the bucks on a Lincoln Pickup. Same goes with vacuum
cleaners and Festool.

Toyota, Lincoln. Picking a Lincoln over a Toyota would be a step down
in quality. If you value bling over value get the Lincoln.

Having owned both (Mom's Continental/Tundra), I agree.

Your Mom owns a Lincoln Pickup? Cool.
You seem rather fugal for the son of a Lincoln Pick up owner.

Yes, I think Lincoln pick up owners are a bit braggadocious at best.

BUT I do not know a lot of people that would be perfectly fine with ear
muffs for hours on end in 90+ degree weather. My Festool shop vac
pretty much runs 2~4 hours at a time.

Not to mention ear "muffs" could simply be ear plugs, not something you
wear in the winter to keep your ears warm.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 4/15/2012 5:55 PM, Dave wrote:
On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 13:20:13 -0400, wrote:
...and not so much in others. I'm perfectly happy with my 35 year old
shop vac, and am willing to wear ear muffs rather than spend a $100 or
so on a new one that is a bit quieter, and certainly won't spend $645 on
a Festool that does pretty much the same thing, regardless of how pretty
and quiet it might be...

And what if that Festool vacuum is part and parcel of getting and
keeping customers.

It would not be part and parcel of getting and keeping customers. You
sure are a goofy sucker.

LESS dust in a customer's house.

My 35 year old shop vac sucks up dust and water just fine. When I use it
with my $100 sander, I get zero dust, don't even need a dust mask. It
is loud, but it is very old and very cheap. You could buy vacs at half
the cost (still expensive for a damned vac) of a Festool and quieter.
Ridged for example.

Much LESS noise in
that same customer's house. May customers are living in the same house
a contractor my be working in.

Got a smart reply to that scenario Jack?

Well, I've done plenty of work for people, and have had work done for
me, and the shop vac decibel level was never, ever, not even once an
issue. You are one bazaar dude.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 4/16/2012 12:10 PM, Jack wrote:
On 4/15/2012 3:07 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 13:00:28 -0500, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 4/15/2012 12:20 PM, Jack wrote:

I have met a ton
of people that think a Toyota Pick up is good enough, and they don't
need to spend the bucks on a Lincoln Pickup. Same goes with vacuum
cleaners and Festool.

Toyota, Lincoln. Picking a Lincoln over a Toyota would be a step down
in quality. If you value bling over value get the Lincoln.

Having owned both (Mom's Continental/Tundra), I agree.

Your Mom owns a Lincoln Pickup? Cool.
You seem rather fugal for the son of a Lincoln Pick up owner.

Yes, I think Lincoln pick up owners are a bit braggadocious at best.

BUT I do not know a lot of people that would be perfectly fine with ear
muffs for hours on end in 90+ degree weather. My Festool shop vac
pretty much runs 2~4 hours at a time.

Not to mention ear "muffs" could simply be ear plugs, not something you
wear in the winter to keep your ears warm.


Ummm Ear Muffs Jack, your words..

But either way I would prefer not to wear any type of hearing protection
for that long of a period of time. And for the small squeeze rubber
inserts, those don't stay in place well for me.

On 4/16/2012 12:18 PM, Jack wrote:
On 4/15/2012 5:55 PM, Dave wrote:
On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 13:20:13 -0400, wrote:
...and not so much in others. I'm perfectly happy with my 35 year old
shop vac, and am willing to wear ear muffs rather than spend a $100 or
so on a new one that is a bit quieter, and certainly won't spend $645 on
a Festool that does pretty much the same thing, regardless of how pretty
and quiet it might be...

And what if that Festool vacuum is part and parcel of getting and
keeping customers.

It would not be part and parcel of getting and keeping customers. You
sure are a goofy sucker.

LESS dust in a customer's house.

My 35 year old shop vac sucks up dust and water just fine. When I use it
with my $100 sander, I get zero dust, don't even need a dust mask. It is
loud, but it is very old and very cheap. You could buy vacs at half the
cost (still expensive for a damned vac) of a Festool and quieter. Ridged
for exam


Much LESS noise in
that same customer's house. May customers are living in the same house
a contractor my be working in.

Got a smart reply to that scenario Jack?

Well, I've done plenty of work for people, and have had work done for
me, and the shop vac decibel level was never, ever, not even once an
issue. You are one bazaar dude.


Well Joe the fixer upper down the street has done plenty of work for
people too, and he was cheap!

But do this for a living, and better and quieter tools are appreciated
by the customer and the user.

On 4/16/2012 11:10 AM, Bill wrote:
On 4/16/2012 11:15 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:

Just curious, who would recommend me to use (or not use) a jointer for
this project (thinking the process and results would be better)?

If the only thing you plan on ever building is your workbench, forget
about the jointer and borrow a hand plane from someone.

If you plan on building cabinets or furniture, a jointer would be a
nice addition to your shop.

For most people, a 6 inch jointer suffices.

A used stanley #4, #5 and #7 would also suffice, albeit require a
learning curve.

Thanks Scott. I've collected the planes at auction. I'll need to sharpen
them and find something to hold the boards (not as easy as it sounds).
I'm sure the whole process will give me a lot of joy--FAR MORE than I'd
get by just pushing the boards through a jointer! ; )

I'll still look for the number of that industrial sander...

For what is worth, I owned a jointer for decades and got rid of it
because of the lack of use. It took up valuable space. I personally
came out better buying better lumber to begin with.

On 4/15/2012 9:44 PM, Bill wrote:
Bill wrote:

When I first started coming to the Wreck, a little before I "got
interested" in shop renovation, Lew helped me formulate the idea of
making a 6-7 foot workbench top by glueing together, face-to-face, a
bunch of 2-by dimensional lumber (SYP, 2by10s, ripped in half).

Being naive, I almost believed my glue-ups would be almost as nice as my
pictures. Now, being more familiar with jointers, I fear
"near-disaster", if I don't joint at one edge (which will end up on the
top) and the faces too. I have been encouraged to run glue-ups of 4
boards, say, through my planer, and I can see how that could help, but I
can see how things could work out a whole lot better if all of the
boards went through a jointer first, before and after glueing--not that
I have one.

Bill


Just curious, who would recommend me to use (or not use) a jointer for
this project (thinking the process and results would be better)?

With all due respect, I'll put Mike M. and Beltsander-Jack down for
"Ney". Any "Ayes"?

"Belt sander" Jack used a jointer, then used a belt sander, and it still
waved at him. A novice Jointing 8' cut in half 2x4 construction lumber
is not likely to go all that well, but the experience is a learning one.

If you glue up 2x6's or 2x10's ripped in half, (I'd go with 2x6's
because you know what they look like when you start, a 2x10 ripped in
half may or may not be good after ripping.) Lay them face up, number
each joint and joint them even in, odd out against the fence. This at
least guarantees square joints, regardless of how perfect your fence
might be. If your wood is perfect, as in quarter sawn, you will be
fine, but that is unlikely, and the grain will determine what happens
after glue up. Since you have a planer, you can run the glue ups
through the planer in sections that fit the planer. Still, the grain
will determine how good the top will turn out. If you alternate the
grain, it will wave at you if it cups, if you don't the whole thing will
cup (bow).

Neither is all that good, and the books will tell you to alternate the
grain, but mainly, quarter sawn is tits, everything else, less so. If
you want perfection, you probably don't want a solid wood top, much
easier to make a perfect top out of a veneered torsion box. I'm not
that much of a perfectionist.

My top is far, far from perfect, and I love it, cause I made it, it
looks better than manufactured wood tops (particle board, Masonite etc),
and is good enough, even better because I never worried about messing up
a "perfect" top, and interestingly, all those years of "wear marks"
represent a lifetime of work, nice to look at, waves, dents, and all.

Oh, a large top like this would be a good place for the Festool Domino
for alignment purposes, I would think. I use cauls and get by OK.
Biscuits are absolutely not needed for strength, nor are all threads
like I used... Live and learn:-)

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 4/15/2012 9:54 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
Bill wrote:

Just curious, who would recommend me to use (or not use) a jointer
for this project (thinking the process and results would be better)?

With all due respect, I'll put Mike M. and Beltsander-Jack down for
"Ney". Any "Ayes"?
--------------------------------------
A jointer has no place in this project; however, a 48" wide commercial
drum sander is another matter.

Really? It's exactly where a jointer gets it's name? You could get by
w/o one perhaps, but it's place is locked in history...

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 4/16/2012 10:45 AM, Leon wrote:
On 4/16/2012 9:41 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:

What I'm trying to figure out is why you're not using your dust
collector. Ditto a $100 portable model for onsite use. The sound
level is about the same: quiet.

I don't use mine because I don't like super fine dust going to my DC.
My DC has a 1" deep pan that collects powder that the metal filter
misses. Both the metal pan and the metal filter see ONLY fine powder.
The more I use it for sanding tasks, the quicker the filter gather
powder. I usually clean it 2-3 time a year, and I do use it for my 48"
belt/disk sander. I wear ear muffs with the screaming shop vac.

The Festool is much "quieter" than any $100 unit and my DC for that

But there are quieter ones at 1/2 the price, if noise is that big an
issue. The ONLY complaint I have with mine is the noise, and I can't
hear it with my ear muffs on.

Almost all DCs I've heard are significantly quieter than any shop vac
other than the Festools. My Griz 1029 wouldn't wake up a napper in
the next room, or possibly in the same room.

That's good to know. Another thing, besides sucking power and noise, I
want to know is the hose, is it standard 2 1/2" hose or proprietary
hose? I hate proprietary stuff.

matter. When used with any of my power tools I cannot hear the Festool
vac running.

ALL this talk about quiet made me DAGS. A Dewalt D27905 which sells at
less than 1/2 the price of a Festool, lists as 58 decibels, vs the loud
Festool, which is 72 decibels. My ShopVac must be about a million.

I can't hear anything running with my shop vac, cause I have to wear ear
muffs or my ears bleed... I can run my chain saw w/o ear muffs, and it
is loud. My shop vac is not just loud, it actually hurts my ears with
the high pitched, piercing, screaming noise it makes. I got it in 1975
or 76, so can't compare to new stuff.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 4/16/2012 2:23 PM, Leon wrote:
On 4/16/2012 12:10 PM, Jack wrote:

Not to mention ear "muffs" could simply be ear plugs, not something you
wear in the winter to keep your ears warm.

Ummm Ear Muffs Jack, your words..

But either way I would prefer not to wear any type of hearing protection
for that long of a period of time. And for the small squeeze rubber
inserts, those don't stay in place well for me.

No argument there, but since I already own a shop vac that does
everything I need, I'll wear the ear muffs until it breaks, cause it
sucks good enough to suck most anything that fits in it's 2 1/2" hose.
I now see I could replace it with a super quiet 58db Dewalt for 1/2 the
price of a Festool. I won't replace it till it breaks though, so it's
sure to last another 35 years. I doubt I'll be able to hear anything by
then.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 4/16/2012 2:38 PM, Leon wrote:
On 4/16/2012 12:18 PM, Jack wrote:
On 4/15/2012 5:55 PM, Dave wrote:
Much LESS noise in
that same customer's house. May customers are living in the same house
a contractor my be working in.

Got a smart reply to that scenario Jack?

Well, I've done plenty of work for people, and have had work done for
me, and the shop vac decibel level was never, ever, not even once an
issue. You are one bazaar dude.


Well Joe the fixer upper down the street has done plenty of work for
people too, and he was cheap!

Well yeah, he wasn't paying off a Festool mortgage:-)

But do this for a living, and better and quieter tools are appreciated
by the customer and the user.

Well if I ever become a professional vacuum cleaner guy, running a shop
vac 4 hours or more a day, I'll consider that Festool shop vac...
Meanwhile, after pounding nails all day, running hammer drills into
concrete walls all day, whacking 2x's with a circular saw all day, when
done, my screaming shop vac will let the customer know I'm done, and am
cleaning up after myself. The noise won't bother them a lick, they be
glad it's over. And my vac spews no dust that I can see.

Listen Leon, I'd love to own a fleet of Festools. I've had them in my
hands, ran a few, and they exude quality. I can't justify $645 for a
damned vacuum, and I guarantee you I'm not alone, including many
professionals making a living doing wood work.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

Jack wrote in :


But there are quieter ones at 1/2 the price, if noise is that big an
issue. The ONLY complaint I have with mine is the noise, and I can't
hear it with my ear muffs on.

The Ridgid WD1450 is around $100 and reasonably quiet. Ridgid, AFAIK,
hasn't posted decible ratings, so there's no way to compare. I would guess
it's in the mid-70's.

That's good to know. Another thing, besides sucking power and noise,
I want to know is the hose, is it standard 2 1/2" hose or proprietary
hose? I hate proprietary stuff.

I do too. Shop-vac has established a couple very common hose sizes here in
the US (probably the same in Canada) that work well. Constantly adapting
to other sizes is an unnecessary pain.

ALL this talk about quiet made me DAGS. A Dewalt D27905 which sells at
less than 1/2 the price of a Festool, lists as 58 decibels, vs the
loud Festool, which is 72 decibels. My ShopVac must be about a
million.

I can't hear anything running with my shop vac, cause I have to wear
ear muffs or my ears bleed... I can run my chain saw w/o ear muffs,
and it is loud. My shop vac is not just loud, it actually hurts my
ears with the high pitched, piercing, screaming noise it makes. I got
it in 1975 or 76, so can't compare to new stuff.


That would be grounds for me to replace the tool. A quiet vacuum is a
considerable upgrade on a loud noisy one. Plus, many new vacuum designs
limit the amount of dust they throw into the air (I've watched a cloud form
over a cheap shop vac), but the old one might do that just fine.

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

Jack wrote:


Well, I've done plenty of work for people, and have had work done for
me, and the shop vac decibel level was never, ever, not even once an
issue. You are one bazaar dude.

I have to agree. I don't do the amount of work that Swingman and Leon do
for other people, but in all of the work that I have done for others (and
that is not an inconsequential amount of work) on site, I have never heard a
complaint about the level of noise or the amount of dust in the containment
area - or even slightly outside of it. I'd say that some amount of that is
expected. I imagine there may be very high end jobs where it may be a
factor, but how many of us really ever find ourselves in that environment?
If we do - how many times?

--

-Mike-

Leon wrote:

Well Joe the fixer upper down the street has done plenty of work for
people too, and he was cheap!

That's just a bit off Leon. Come on - every contractor or good workman that
does not use Festool is not Joe the fixer upper. That was just wrong dude.


But do this for a living, and better and quieter tools are appreciated
by the customer and the user.

Quieter I can almost believe - but even that I'm not sure about. Better?
Come on Leon - how would they even know?

--

-Mike-

Puckdropper wrote:


The Ridgid WD1450 is around $100 and reasonably quiet. Ridgid, AFAIK,
hasn't posted decible ratings, so there's no way to compare. I would
guess it's in the mid-70's.70

Just be careful guessing at dB levels - they aren't what would seem
intuitive to you. Normal speach is around 65 dB, so your guess at mid-70's
might just be off by a lot more than you would think.



That would be grounds for me to replace the tool. A quiet vacuum is a
considerable upgrade on a loud noisy one. Plus, many new vacuum
designs limit the amount of dust they throw into the air (I've
watched a cloud form over a cheap shop vac), but the old one might do
that just fine.


Likewise - I used to have an old Craftsman 16 gallon screamer. Loud - and
it blew as much out the exhaust port as it vacuumed up! Junked it in favor
of a small Ridgid, and I've never seen any blow out from it - even when
cleaning up sheetrock mess.

--

-Mike-

"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
eb.com...
I wrote:

A jointer has no place in this project; however, a 48" wide commercial
drum sander is another matter.
--------------------------------------
"John Grossbohlin" wrote:

Are you sure that would work? Wouldn't a 36" or larger thickness planer
be better?

John
----------------------------------------
It's a lot easier to get rental time around here on a 48" wide drum sander
than a 36" wide thickness planer, especially when they find out you want
to expose those 36" planer blades to a soft wood glued up lamination.

I can get a 24" x 84" top sanded flat for less than $30.00 here in SoCal.

Gee Lew... I thought you were trying to bait folks into getting one of those
big sanders... figured I'd push it up another notch. ;~)

John

On 4/16/2012 3:19 PM, Jack wrote:
On 4/16/2012 2:23 PM, Leon wrote:
On 4/16/2012 12:10 PM, Jack wrote:

Not to mention ear "muffs" could simply be ear plugs, not something you
wear in the winter to keep your ears warm.

Ummm Ear Muffs Jack, your words..

But either way I would prefer not to wear any type of hearing protection
for that long of a period of time. And for the small squeeze rubber
inserts, those don't stay in place well for me.

No argument there, but since I already own a shop vac that does
everything I need, I'll wear the ear muffs until it breaks, cause it
sucks good enough to suck most anything that fits in it's 2 1/2" hose. I
now see I could replace it with a super quiet 58db Dewalt for 1/2 the
price of a Festool. I won't replace it till it breaks though, so it's
sure to last another 35 years. I doubt I'll be able to hear anything by
then.


What? what did you say? LOL Get a quieter one now so that you won't
kick yourself for waiting so long.

On 4/16/2012 3:48 PM, Jack wrote:
On 4/16/2012 2:38 PM, Leon wrote:
On 4/16/2012 12:18 PM, Jack wrote:
On 4/15/2012 5:55 PM, Dave wrote:
Much LESS noise in
that same customer's house. May customers are living in the same house
a contractor my be working in.

Got a smart reply to that scenario Jack?

Well, I've done plenty of work for people, and have had work done for
me, and the shop vac decibel level was never, ever, not even once an
issue. You are one bazaar dude.


Well Joe the fixer upper down the street has done plenty of work for
people too, and he was cheap!

Well yeah, he wasn't paying off a Festool mortgage:-)

But do this for a living, and better and quieter tools are appreciated
by the customer and the user.

Well if I ever become a professional vacuum cleaner guy, running a shop
vac 4 hours or more a day, I'll consider that Festool shop vac...
Meanwhile, after pounding nails all day, running hammer drills into
concrete walls all day, whacking 2x's with a circular saw all day, when
done, my screaming shop vac will let the customer know I'm done, and am
cleaning up after myself. The noise won't bother them a lick, they be
glad it's over. And my vac spews no dust that I can see.

Think about what you said and what I am about to say... All kidding
aside. If your customers are glad it is over, is that leaving a
favorable impression in their minds when they have more work to be done?
Most of my work is repeat customers and second to that is referral
business from those customers. I do not have a web site,,, yet, and my
only advertising is my business card. No business phone either.
Swingman and I did a kitchen renovation that began about 18 months ago.
We used Festool equipment extensively for cavinets, doors, and
drawers. We thought we would never get out of there. IIRC the work
tripled what we were expecting to do. An no, it probably was not all
because we were using Festool equipment but a good portion absolutely
was because we were using Festool equipment and it certainly made life
easier for us.



Listen Leon, I'd love to own a fleet of Festools. I've had them in my
hands, ran a few, and they exude quality. I can't justify $645 for a
damned vacuum, and I guarantee you I'm not alone, including many
professionals making a living doing wood work.

Now Jack you are speaking in a way I can understand.

On 4/16/2012 4:29 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Leon wrote:

Well Joe the fixer upper down the street has done plenty of work for
people too, and he was cheap!

That's just a bit off Leon. Come on - every contractor or good workman that
does not use Festool is not Joe the fixer upper. That was just wrong dude.


You are absolutely correct! What I meant to convey is that my idea of
"Joe the Fixer upper" is one that dabbles in the sport...



But do this for a living, and better and quieter tools are appreciated
by the customer and the user.

Quieter I can almost believe - but even that I'm not sure about. Better?
Come on Leon - how would they even know?


Several of my customers realize that only a Festool Domino can make the
exposed tenons that I use to reinforce drawer joints. They like the
look. Not saying that there are other pretty joints but at the moment
the Domino is the only tool that will do it quickly and accurately.
That single use alone has paid for my Domino a few times over. And I
just bought my second box of replacement 5 mm Dominos. Just in that
size, I have gone through about 2,400. I very seldom make a joint
anymore with out floating tenons/Dominos and my customers get pictures
of how their pieces of furniture are going together. I send them
pictures of what they will never see after delivery.

Leon wrote:


Think about what you said and what I am about to say... All kidding
aside. If your customers are glad it is over, is that leaving a
favorable impression in their minds when they have more work to be
done? Most of my work is repeat customers and second to that is
referral business from those customers. I do not have a web site,,,
yet, and my only advertising is my business card. No business phone
either. Swingman and I did a kitchen renovation that began about 18
months ago. We used Festool equipment extensively for cavinets,
doors, and drawers. We thought we would never get out of there. IIRC the
work
tripled what we were expecting to do. An no, it probably was not all
because we were using Festool equipment but a good portion absolutely
was because we were using Festool equipment and it certainly made
life easier for us.



That's the part of the whole thing I cannot buy into Leon. To me - you and
Swing earned what you got in terms of additional work, because of the work
you perform - not because of your tools. Doubtful the customer really based
their decisions on the tools you used.


--

-Mike-

On 4/16/2012 4:26 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Jack wrote:


Well, I've done plenty of work for people, and have had work done for
me, and the shop vac decibel level was never, ever, not even once an
issue. You are one bazaar dude.

I have to agree. I don't do the amount of work that Swingman and Leon do
for other people, but in all of the work that I have done for others (and
that is not an inconsequential amount of work) on site, I have never heard a
complaint about the level of noise or the amount of dust in the containment
area - or even slightly outside of it. I'd say that some amount of that is
expected. I imagine there may be very high end jobs where it may be a
factor, but how many of us really ever find ourselves in that environment?
If we do - how many times?


I know that you will be understand what I am going to say here. Wen I
use loud equipment I never got complaints either.

Now that I use quieter and better equipment I some how stay busier, get
more repeat customers, and referrals. I am more productive.

On 4/16/2012 6:04 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Leon wrote:


Think about what you said and what I am about to say... All kidding
aside. If your customers are glad it is over, is that leaving a
favorable impression in their minds when they have more work to be
done? Most of my work is repeat customers and second to that is
referral business from those customers. I do not have a web site,,,
yet, and my only advertising is my business card. No business phone
either. Swingman and I did a kitchen renovation that began about 18
months ago. We used Festool equipment extensively for cavinets,
doors, and drawers. We thought we would never get out of there. IIRC the
work
tripled what we were expecting to do. An no, it probably was not all
because we were using Festool equipment but a good portion absolutely
was because we were using Festool equipment and it certainly made
life easier for us.



That's the part of the whole thing I cannot buy into Leon. To me - you and
Swing earned what you got in terms of additional work, because of the work
you perform - not because of your tools. Doubtful the customer really based
their decisions on the tools you used.

Go ahead, convince me that top of the line automobile paint
spraying/finishing equipment doesn't allow you to do a better job, more
quickly, efficiently and easier, and thus obtain additional work
"because of the work you perform(ed)".

I'm waiting ... with paint brush in hand for you to prove me wrong.


--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On 4/16/2012 6:04 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Leon wrote:


Think about what you said and what I am about to say... All kidding
aside. If your customers are glad it is over, is that leaving a
favorable impression in their minds when they have more work to be
done? Most of my work is repeat customers and second to that is
referral business from those customers. I do not have a web site,,,
yet, and my only advertising is my business card. No business phone
either. Swingman and I did a kitchen renovation that began about 18
months ago. We used Festool equipment extensively for cavinets,
doors, and drawers. We thought we would never get out of there. IIRC the
work
tripled what we were expecting to do. An no, it probably was not all
because we were using Festool equipment but a good portion absolutely
was because we were using Festool equipment and it certainly made
life easier for us.



That's the part of the whole thing I cannot buy into Leon. To me - you and
Swing earned what you got in terms of additional work, because of the work
you perform - not because of your tools. Doubtful the customer really based
their decisions on the tools you used.



There is that and Swingman and I are damn good. ;~) but I built an
additional 32 drawers to replace "new" drawers that the trim carpenter
had build but not yet installed. The customer saw 3 special sized
drawers for the kitchen with exposed tenons to reinforce the joints that
I had built. The other 32 drawers were for the bath rooms which I was
not participating in until she saw those three drawers. So yes the tool
in this case was responsible for the extra work.

Initially on the kitchen we precut all cabinet doors and drawer fronts
in our shops. Because this was a remodel and we were dealing with
square new cabinets fitting into an older home and cabinet door gap
tolerances measured in 32nds" we had to custom recut several doors and
drawer fronts so that the gaps looked uniform. We made these custom
unsquare cuts with a Festool track saw, cutting MDF.

Do you think any ole circular saw would have been up to the task with no
tear out on the edges top or bottom, in MDF?

Swingman wrote:


Go ahead, convince me that top of the line automobile paint
spraying/finishing equipment doesn't allow you to do a better job,
more quickly, efficiently and easier, and thus obtain additional work
"because of the work you perform(ed)".

I'm waiting ... with paint brush in hand for you to prove me wrong.

Yeahbut we both know that was not my point. I painted a lot of cars with a
25 year old Devilibis suction gun and a Binks Model 7 before I upgraded to
my HVLP. Turned out mirror finishes. The Chip Foose car I redid was shot
with one of those. My tools today do save me cost of materials, but they
don't make the paint jobs any better. I'm as good (or not as good...), with
either technology in my hand. Like you and Leon, my work is distinguished
by my practices, not by my tools. Not a doubt in my mind that the two of
you would get the repeat work, and the add on work if you were using Black
and Decker tools - because it's about the work you turn out, not the tools
that got you there. Yeah - good tools may work faster or more accurately,
but that only saves you the effort - it's still the work you turn out that
is recognized.

--

-Mike-

Leon wrote:


There is that and Swingman and I are damn good. ;~)

Yeah! That was my point!

but I built an
additional 32 drawers to replace "new" drawers that the trim carpenter
had build but not yet installed. The customer saw 3 special sized
drawers for the kitchen with exposed tenons to reinforce the joints
that I had built. The other 32 drawers were for the bath rooms which
I was not participating in until she saw those three drawers. So yes
the tool in this case was responsible for the extra work.

But - if you had done those first drawers with hand cut dovetails, don't you
think the reaction would have been the same?


Initially on the kitchen we precut all cabinet doors and drawer fronts
in our shops. Because this was a remodel and we were dealing with
square new cabinets fitting into an older home and cabinet door gap
tolerances measured in 32nds" we had to custom recut several doors
and drawer fronts so that the gaps looked uniform. We made these
custom unsquare cuts with a Festool track saw, cutting MDF.

Do you think any ole circular saw would have been up to the task with
no tear out on the edges top or bottom, in MDF?

Hell no - everybody knows you use oxy/accetelyne to cut MDF!

Geeze...

--

-Mike-

On 4/16/2012 6:24 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 4/16/2012 6:04 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Leon wrote:


Think about what you said and what I am about to say... All kidding
aside. If your customers are glad it is over, is that leaving a
favorable impression in their minds when they have more work to be
done? Most of my work is repeat customers and second to that is
referral business from those customers. I do not have a web site,,,
yet, and my only advertising is my business card. No business phone
either. Swingman and I did a kitchen renovation that began about 18
months ago. We used Festool equipment extensively for cavinets,
doors, and drawers. We thought we would never get out of there. IIRC the
work
tripled what we were expecting to do. An no, it probably was not all
because we were using Festool equipment but a good portion absolutely
was because we were using Festool equipment and it certainly made
life easier for us.



That's the part of the whole thing I cannot buy into Leon. To me - you
and
Swing earned what you got in terms of additional work, because of the
work
you perform - not because of your tools. Doubtful the customer really
based
their decisions on the tools you used.

Go ahead, convince me that top of the line automobile paint
spraying/finishing equipment doesn't allow you to do a better job, more
quickly, efficiently and easier, and thus obtain additional work
"because of the work you perform(ed)".

I'm waiting ... with paint brush in hand for you to prove me wrong.


Is that a noisy paint brush?? LOL

On 4/16/2012 7:14 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Swingman wrote:


Go ahead, convince me that top of the line automobile paint
spraying/finishing equipment doesn't allow you to do a better job,
more quickly, efficiently and easier, and thus obtain additional work
"because of the work you perform(ed)".

I'm waiting ... with paint brush in hand for you to prove me wrong.

Yeahbut we both know that was not my point. I painted a lot of cars with a
25 year old Devilibis suction gun and a Binks Model 7 before I upgraded to
my HVLP. Turned out mirror finishes. The Chip Foose car I redid was shot
with one of those. My tools today do save me cost of materials, but they
don't make the paint jobs any better. I'm as good (or not as good...), with
either technology in my hand. Like you and Leon, my work is distinguished
by my practices, not by my tools. Not a doubt in my mind that the two of
you would get the repeat work, and the add on work if you were using Black
and Decker tools - because it's about the work you turn out, not the tools
that got you there. Yeah - good tools may work faster or more accurately,
but that only saves you the effort - it's still the work you turn out that
is recognized.


Well let me ask you this Mike. ;~)

With a dedicate mortiser or tool of your choice do you think you could
cut 150+ 1/2" wide mortises a precise depth, in a precise location to
mate with each other, precisely in.... 20 minutes?

"John Grossbohlin" wrote:
Gee Lew... I thought you were trying to bait folks into getting one
of those big sanders... figured I'd push it up another notch. ;~)
--------------------------
The typical commercial drum sander has 3 sanding drums, each driven by
a 25 HP motor, and a 20 HP bag house type dust collector.

Turning on 95 HP puts things in perspective.

Makes the typical hobbist unit look like the toy it is.

Lew

Jack wrote:

On 4/15/2012 9:44 PM, Bill wrote:
Bill wrote:

When I first started coming to the Wreck, a little before I "got
interested" in shop renovation, Lew helped me formulate the idea of
making a 6-7 foot workbench top by glueing together, face-to-face, a
bunch of 2-by dimensional lumber (SYP, 2by10s, ripped in half).

Being naive, I almost believed my glue-ups would be almost as nice as my
pictures. Now, being more familiar with jointers, I fear
"near-disaster", if I don't joint at one edge (which will end up on the
top) and the faces too. I have been encouraged to run glue-ups of 4
boards, say, through my planer, and I can see how that could help, but I
can see how things could work out a whole lot better if all of the
boards went through a jointer first, before and after glueing--not that
I have one.

Bill


Just curious, who would recommend me to use (or not use) a jointer for
this project (thinking the process and results would be better)?

With all due respect, I'll put Mike M. and Beltsander-Jack down for
"Ney". Any "Ayes"?

"Belt sander" Jack used a jointer, then used a belt sander, and it still
waved at him. A novice Jointing 8' cut in half 2x4 construction lumber
is not likely to go all that well, but the experience is a learning one.

If you glue up 2x6's or 2x10's ripped in half, (I'd go with 2x6's
because you know what they look like when you start, a 2x10 ripped in
half may or may not be good after ripping.)

Jack, The argument seems to be that, in general they cut the 2x10s from
better wood. I found your post interesting. Thanks!

As far as flatness, I don't want my work to "wobble" on the
bench--especially if I'm doing woodcarving. Of course, I could always
put down a veneer, and I may anyway, but it would be nice if the surface
was basically sort-of-flat to begin with.

Cheers,
Bill


Lay them face up, number
each joint and joint them even in, odd out against the fence. This at
least guarantees square joints, regardless of how perfect your fence
might be. If your wood is perfect, as in quarter sawn, you will be fine,
but that is unlikely, and the grain will determine what happens after
glue up. Since you have a planer, you can run the glue ups through the
planer in sections that fit the planer. Still, the grain will determine
how good the top will turn out. If you alternate the grain, it will wave
at you if it cups, if you don't the whole thing will cup (bow).

Neither is all that good, and the books will tell you to alternate the
grain, but mainly, quarter sawn is tits, everything else, less so. If
you want perfection, you probably don't want a solid wood top, much
easier to make a perfect top out of a veneered torsion box. I'm not that
much of a perfectionist.

On 4/16/2012 7:17 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Leon wrote:


There is that and Swingman and I are damn good. ;~)

Yeah! That was my point!

LOL,,, I once thought it was the skill and to a great degree it is the
knowledge of how to make things look right. But I have been doing this
seriously for 34 or so years. The first 17 or so as stress therapy for
my "real job". Right Nailshooter? ;~)

I can tell you that it is not all me, I am just one of the tools. I
have put some pretty serious money into some of my equipment and have
gotten my investment back faster than I ever dreamed. These tools do
what others can't and or what I don't know how or want to do any other way.


but I built an
additional 32 drawers to replace "new" drawers that the trim carpenter
had build but not yet installed. The customer saw 3 special sized
drawers for the kitchen with exposed tenons to reinforce the joints
that I had built. The other 32 drawers were for the bath rooms which
I was not participating in until she saw those three drawers. So yes
the tool in this case was responsible for the extra work.

But - if you had done those first drawers with hand cut dovetails, don't you
think the reaction would have been the same?

I don't do hand cut DT's. And Swingman actually did all of the other
kitchen drawers with DT's. So no, this apparently was and or is a new
and unique look that sto people more so that not. Swingmans DT's were
beautiful. IIRC those 3 special drawers would have been too much
trouble to DT on so they got Domino's. The customer absolutely had the
choice and the resources to pretty much have what she wanted.



Initially on the kitchen we precut all cabinet doors and drawer fronts
in our shops. Because this was a remodel and we were dealing with
square new cabinets fitting into an older home and cabinet door gap
tolerances measured in 32nds" we had to custom recut several doors
and drawer fronts so that the gaps looked uniform. We made these
custom unsquare cuts with a Festool track saw, cutting MDF.

Do you think any ole circular saw would have been up to the task with
no tear out on the edges top or bottom, in MDF?

Hell no - everybody knows you use oxy/accetelyne to cut MDF!

Geeze...

I will say I don't see any smoke and mirrors in Festool videos.

Now let me throw this one at you. I now own a Festool T15-3 drill. My
wife bought it for me for Christmas. I thought it was an indulgence.
It's a cool drill that spins in two directions with very cool right
angle and eccentric attachments. But was it going to be that much
better?????
Ok I now use it instead of my corded DeWalt for drilling pocket holes.
I have not used my impact driver since getting this drill.
The clutch is electronic so the drill shuts off and gives you a two
toned beep to indicate that you have reached your predetermined torque
setting. Gone is the loud clatter of the clutch. Ok, it is quieter. ;~)
I this week used it to build shelving out of 2x4 material for my new
shed. I use 3" torx/star head deck screws. This 15 volt drill drove
200 plus screws full depth on the fast gear speed setting with out
sinking the heads past even with the surface of the wood with out using
the clutch. You let go of the trigger it stops, instantly. The only
other drill that I have seen come close to that is my old Panasonic.
DeWalt and Makita don't come close to stopping that quick. The drill
obviously senses a load and increases voltage so you don't notice a
speed change when driving a screw, fast or slow. Stop the screw 3/4 in
and start again and it instantly turns at the speed indicated by the
trigger pull. I absolutely did not have to goose the trigger setting to
get things going again.

Swingman! You wanna toush it?

On 4/16/2012 7:14 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Swingman wrote:


Go ahead, convince me that top of the line automobile paint
spraying/finishing equipment doesn't allow you to do a better job,
more quickly, efficiently and easier, and thus obtain additional work
"because of the work you perform(ed)".

I'm waiting ... with paint brush in hand for you to prove me wrong.

Yeahbut we both know that was not my point.

I'm taking exactly what you express to be what your point is.

I painted a lot of cars with a
25 year old Devilibis suction gun and a Binks Model 7 before I upgraded to
my HVLP. Turned out mirror finishes. The Chip Foose car I redid was shot
with one of those. My tools today do save me cost of materials, but they
don't make the paint jobs any better. I'm as good (or not as good...), with
either technology in my hand. Like you and Leon, my work is distinguished
by my practices, not by my tools. Not a doubt in my mind that the two of
you would get the repeat work, and the add on work if you were using Black
and Decker tools - because it's about the work you turn out, not the tools
that got you there. Yeah - good tools may work faster or more accurately,
but that only saves you the effort - it's still the work you turn out that
is recognized.

You indeed have a point, but my contention is that it is a far cry from
the entire story, and that the tool can be as equally important as the
talent.

I will accept that talent and aptitude obviously play a part, but you
must also accept that Michelangelo could not have carved a David with a
carving knife, nor could Rembrandt have painted The Night Watch with his
finger.

The tool and, in almost all cases of success in handwork of any kind,
the "best tool for the job", is most often what ultimately allows the
talent and aptitude to express itself ... you must have all three, plus
the opportunity.

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

Leon wrote:
On 4/16/2012 7:14 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Swingman wrote:


Go ahead, convince me that top of the line automobile paint
spraying/finishing equipment doesn't allow you to do a better job,
more quickly, efficiently and easier, and thus obtain additional
work "because of the work you perform(ed)".

I'm waiting ... with paint brush in hand for you to prove me wrong.


Yeahbut we both know that was not my point. I painted a lot of cars
with a 25 year old Devilibis suction gun and a Binks Model 7 before
I upgraded to my HVLP. Turned out mirror finishes. The Chip Foose
car I redid was shot with one of those. My tools today do save me
cost of materials, but they don't make the paint jobs any better. I'm as
good (or not as good...), with either technology in my hand. Like you and
Leon, my work is distinguished by my practices, not by
my tools. Not a doubt in my mind that the two of you would get the
repeat work, and the add on work if you were using Black and Decker
tools - because it's about the work you turn out, not the tools that
got you there. Yeah - good tools may work faster or more
accurately, but that only saves you the effort - it's still the work
you turn out that is recognized.

Well let me ask you this Mike. ;~)

With a dedicate mortiser or tool of your choice do you think you could
cut 150+ 1/2" wide mortises a precise depth, in a precise location to
mate with each other, precisely in.... 20 minutes?

Perhaps with a router jig - not sure. I'd almost think so, once it was set
up. But - don't get me wrong... I'm not suggesting the tools don't perform
or perform well. I'm not even suggesting they don't speed up the work. I
was just trying to say that I suspect it was you two guys that got you the
added work - not the tools. If you had to work harder (which the customer
would not even see), to accomplish the same task with a different tool, you
would still have gotten the add on work. What got you that was quality
delivery (two items). That those two came easier to you is a bonus for you,
but you'd have nearly hit those same milestones with a rock and a sharp
stick if you had to.

--

-Mike-

On Mon, 16 Apr 2012 13:18:11 -0400, Jack wrote:
Well, I've done plenty of work for people, and have had work done for
me, and the shop vac decibel level was never, ever, not even once an
issue. You are one bazaar dude.

Not that any customers would tell you. I imagine you scare the ****
out of most customers Jack.

Just the fact that you don't consider dust and noise as having an
effect on customers, goes to show your screwed up mindset. Obviously,
you're just a bit player.

Leon wrote:


I will say I don't see any smoke and mirrors in Festool videos.

Now let me throw this one at you. I now own a Festool T15-3 drill. My
wife bought it for me for Christmas. I thought it was an
indulgence. It's a cool drill that spins in two directions with very cool
right
angle and eccentric attachments. But was it going to be that much
better?????
Ok I now use it instead of my corded DeWalt for drilling pocket holes.
I have not used my impact driver since getting this drill.
The clutch is electronic so the drill shuts off and gives you a two
toned beep to indicate that you have reached your predetermined torque
setting. Gone is the loud clatter of the clutch. Ok, it is
quieter. ;~) I this week used it to build shelving out of 2x4
material for my new shed. I use 3" torx/star head deck screws. This 15
volt drill drove
200 plus screws full depth on the fast gear speed setting with out
sinking the heads past even with the surface of the wood with out
using the clutch. You let go of the trigger it stops, instantly. The
only other drill that I have seen come close to that is my old Panasonic.
DeWalt and Makita don't come close to stopping that quick. The drill
obviously senses a load and increases voltage so you don't notice a
speed change when driving a screw, fast or slow. Stop the screw 3/4
in and start again and it instantly turns at the speed indicated by
the trigger pull. I absolutely did not have to goose the trigger
setting to get things going again.


Now... that's a drill motor. I've contented myslef with my Rigid 18v
because the kit was a Christmas present, and with the big batteries, it's
quite a workhorse. Not at all as intelligent as yours, and I like the sound
of what I hear from you about it. I think you should send it up here. I'll
give it a sexy paint job and of course, I'll try it out to make sure it
still works - and then... ahem.... send it back to you...

--

-Mike-

Swingman! You wanna toush it?

On Mon, 16 Apr 2012 16:05:18 -0400, Jack wrote:
I can't hear anything running with my shop vac, cause I have to wear ear
muffs or my ears bleed... I can run my chain saw w/o ear muffs, and it
is loud. My shop vac is not just loud, it actually hurts my ears with
the high pitched, piercing, screaming noise it makes.

And yet, you refuse to admit that the noise from a job vac onsite
wouldn't have an effect on customers. You really are a screwed up
asshole.