On 4/11/2012 4:18 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
Snip



IMHO on one wanted to start "the change" Yes cost would have been more
but absolutely not prohibitively expensive... Saw Stop is not having an
issue with actually going from an idea to a start up company and selling
thousands.

Compared to the other selling hundreds of thousands annually, that's a
small number. And the price of the saws SS sells is waaay up there.

You have data to back that up??? I know for a fact that Delta is only
in the hundreds of Unisaws in the last couple of years.



Obviously the competition guessed and gambled wrong. They turned down
the opportunity to be the first and to be in the position that Saw Stop
is in today.

g


Did the guys at SawStop proceed in a way that ****ed a few people off?
Absoluteness! It ****es me off that the other manufacturers did not
want us to see this happen by not even giving it a try. But I'll get
over it, life is too short to worry about how Delta, or Jet, or
Powermatic are going to make out should this standard be mandated. they
had their chance and watched it go by.

Did you just make that up?g See if you can prove that the mfgrs
didn't want us to see this happen.

No, that is just common sense. Had the manufacturers thought it would
have sold they would have been making them today. They chose not to let
us have the opportunity.


See if you can learn the truth behind the rejections, eh? I'll bet
that you aren't so proud of your Gassy friend after that./guess

I am not proud of any one except how SawStop has by far exceed most
every opne expectations especially those that considered it vapor ware.

I am not the kind of person that has to be for or against something.
That kind of thinking is too limiting.



And again, even if you will no longer be able to buy a TS without This
technology you are not being forced to buy it. Use a hand saw if you
are so inclined to not buy the product, the decision is all .

For one man [actually a (is "toxic" redundant here?) set of 4
attorneys] to monopolize an industry via regulations is antithetical
to what our United States Gov't means to me.

Apply that to your seat belts and unleaded gas.

The cost of seatbelts or gas is extremely small compared to the cost
of the car. The added safety was felt to be worth it by both the
gov't and most of the people, so it was instituted.

How do you figure, go to a dealership and order a seat belt and tell me
if you think a seat belt is small in price...

AND besides what does cost have to do with your way of thinking. I have
the idea that you will reject the SawStop if it were required and was
only $50 more expensive.



I can only imagine the discussions that would have been had when the
regular guard was mandated. Surely that increased the price of every
saw, way back when, when most people did not have an extra dollar or two
to spend each month. It knocked plenty out of the market for a new saw.

A few bucks for a guard vs. a few HUNDRED for a safety mechanism.
That's not -quite- on the same level, is it?

You totally missed the point. I cannot explain it any simpler.


Actually yes it is on the same level. When the current regular guard
was mandated most using these saws did not have a dollar or two to
spare. It is all relative. Gas and vehicles are about 20 times more
expensive than 40 years ago, those guards go back farther. Now lets
take a $300 Saw Stop option and divide that by 20 and I get $15, all
things being relative..

I paid $119 for my refurb Ryobi saw. A $300 option would have put it
up to about $600 retail. Lots of people buy the cheap 10" saws, Leon.
Not everyone can afford $4k for a SS or Unisaw. Check your reference
levels.

Apples new saws, Oranges, refurbished saws.

Now change that to a new saw and adjust prices 50 years ago to todays
prices or visa versa.



We in this day and age are not unique from earlier decades, we still
have things we oppose but we do still have a choice to buy or not to
buy, just as they did then. My grand father himself built several
homes for his family, my mother and her two daughters, and a couple of
sisters, and sister in-laws. According to my mother, in the mid 40's,
power tools were still not in the budget to build the last that he built.

This is no different.

Bull! There was no regulation back then like the one which threatens
us now, thanks to SS.

None that "you" know of, do some research.

Do you know of specific regs back then? If so, let me know. There
weren't many. The nanny state came up way later. We grew up in it.

Ummm the guard was not an option.



Does Ralph Nader ring a bell?

I guarantee he wasn't ruining Corvairs or contractor lives in the
'40s.


What ever!

On 4/11/2012 3:49 PM, Jack wrote:
On 4/11/2012 3:27 PM, Leon wrote:
On 4/11/2012 1:10 PM, Jack wrote:
On 4/11/2012 8:25 AM, Leon wrote:
On 4/10/2012 10:01 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On 4/10/2012 11:45 AM, Jack wrote:

You actually think Festool doesn't have a few MBAthinkers running
around figuring out how to pry large sums of cash out of the
pockets of
Texans?

You maybe think that we that can afford a quality tool are sick and
tired of paying for crap and Festool recognizes that?

While that's entirely possible, I think the more plausible reason is
that they decided to play to the top end and spent more time building
better tools/features (and jacking up prices) than most mfgrs do. Lee
Valley, Bridge City, Lie Nielsen, Rolls Royce, Land's End, Apple,
Nordstrom, SaurStop, and a few others do that, too. I strongly doubt
-any- were built on anything resembling altruism, though.

Was altruism even in the topic?

The topic was MBAthink is likely just as responsible for cheap Ryobi as
well as expensive Festool.

I was under the impression that the
discussion had singled out Festool and its ungodly color and it being
the "most expensive vac on earth" and people paying unbelievable
amounts
to have one. 3 Totally ignorant statements.

Festool green is ugly.
$500+ for a common shop vac is the most expensive I've seen.
Unbelievable is accurate for this item, of course the MBAthinkers at
Festool apparently don't think so, I'll give you that one.


Small world you live in. A moments search turned up..

other brand "most expensive on earth" vaccuums.

And this one has no mention of a HEPA filter. Ugly Orange and Butt Ugly.
And I am sure worth every penny.

http://www.woodcraft.com/product/202...extractor.aspx


Well, that too is a crazy price for a shop vacuum, but is still less
than the Festool.

And if you really want to get expensive in the "ShopVac brand,

http://www.google.com/products/catal...d=0CIwBEPMCMAM


Well, that's an industrial vac with a stainless steel tank, not
something someone not driving a Lincoln Pickup would buy for his shop.
More like something an MBAthinker might buy for his company for tax
purposes, or a gov't manager to insure spending all his budget to avoid
any cuts.

You always have an out or excuse. AAMOF you can buy the same brand vac
with stainless steel for less than $250. and the Festool is industrial
in build.

And what is your fetish with a lincoln PU???? Did one blow you off the
road??? You seem to have a hard on against a lot of products.


Well, I believe you think you are just as happy with your Makita as
I am
with my Festool.

Yeah, what does Larry know? Poor sap probably can't afford to spend 500
on a shop Vac either, or just doesn't think it's worth it. Thanks to
MBAthink, he can buy what he wants.

He is not foolish or gullible Jack, at least I do not think so however
you might be.

Always that possibility.

But when it comes to power tools I choose my safety,
accuracy, and ease of use, and life expectancy when making purchases.

Yeah, and the rest of us mortals never think of any of that stuff, we
just buy whatever the market throws at us.

Damn, this Harbor Fright clamp sucks, think I'll buy another dozen...

Your words!

Yeah, and while being a fool, I won't be saying them again, now that I
know to think about "safety, accuracy, ease of use and life expectancy"
when buying stuff. You would think the gov't would force Harbor Fright
out of business as obviously a lot of hapless dumb asses are buying junk
from them.


Again, Your words.

On 4/11/2012 4:50 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 10:24:10 -0500, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 4/11/2012 9:43 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 07:41:39 -0500, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 4/10/2012 10:03 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 21:10:55 -0500, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 4/10/2012 5:54 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
"Larry W" wrote:

Hel, you could but a gallon of gas for 20 cents in my lifetime, and
I'm
under 60 (barely)
------------------------------------
Gas for just less than $0.20/gal was quite common in metro Detroit in
the late '50s.

Known as "gas wars".



19.9 was "quite common" in the early 70's in Corpus Christi. I remember
filling up my car for $2.

Ditto my 21.3 cents/gal in Phoenix in '72, my first time away from
home. I'd fill up the old '68 Ford Ranch Wagon for under $3. I paid
$80 the other day for a Tundra fillup.gack

So we are talking gas going up in price to about 20 times what it used
to be in 1970`1972.
A new and nicely equipped pick up in 1971 stickered for about $2k and
now about $40k

I found an exceedingly good value in my $26k Toyota Tundra.

And that is about what I paid but I was talking sticker price then and
now. My middle of the road model snickered for $34k and I am pretty
sure yours snickered for considerably more also.

No, $26,071 out the door new in Dec 2007. Standard cab, 6.5' standard
bed, Northwest towing package (radiator, 2" receiver hitch, larger
battery/alt/wiring), SR5 sport package, 4.7L small V-8, A/C, power
windows/doors, lovely TAN interior (I abhor gray!)


Scratching head.... was that sticker??? Probably not, I paid exactly
$28k drive out but the truck stickered for $34K+

But I got,,... ;~) 5.7 V* and honestly getting just under 17 mpg on
average in town driving. 6 auto speed trans, 4 door, SR5, running
boards, bed protector, towing package, AC and pwr doors windows, Stipe,
tinted front windows, Toyota alarm with glass break, mats, sliding back
glass, Alloy wheels, tool box under back seat, extra sound deadening.

And a beautiful grey interior and charcoal grey exterior. ;~)







OK, checking on a brand new one today: I can't get a V-6 without
going to a freakin' double cab, so 4-cyl w/5sp auto it is. $26,141.
The local Ford dealer wanted about $40k for the same vehicle when I
was doing my research in '07.

--
Let no man imagine that he has no influence. Whoever he may be, and
wherever he may be placed, the man who thinks becomes a light and a power.
-- Henry George

On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 18:46:49 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 4/11/2012 4:18 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
Snip



IMHO on one wanted to start "the change" Yes cost would have been more
but absolutely not prohibitively expensive... Saw Stop is not having an
issue with actually going from an idea to a start up company and selling
thousands.

Compared to the other selling hundreds of thousands annually, that's a
small number. And the price of the saws SS sells is waaay up there.

You have data to back that up??? I know for a fact that Delta is only
in the hundreds of Unisaws in the last couple of years.

Had you read any of the info on the case, you would have seen it
listed numerous times. Delta, one look at the bloody price they
ask and you'll be able to guess why the sales numbers are slim.
I don't recall which document I read that gave those numbers, but it
was one of the legal papers. Looking online, I see that recalls give
you some interesting numbers.
Ryobo 21.5k, Ridgid 3k, DeWalt 13k, and those are only recalls of
individual models, not the total sales. The numbers are BIG.

http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml11/11066.html
http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml09/09311.html
http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml08/08259.html

Here ya go: Skil 120,000 http://tinyurl.com/89elgk2

Now go wash your mind out with soap for not believing me. snort


Obviously the competition guessed and gambled wrong. They turned down
the opportunity to be the first and to be in the position that Saw Stop
is in today.

g


Did the guys at SawStop proceed in a way that ****ed a few people off?
Absoluteness! It ****es me off that the other manufacturers did not
want us to see this happen by not even giving it a try. But I'll get
over it, life is too short to worry about how Delta, or Jet, or
Powermatic are going to make out should this standard be mandated. they
had their chance and watched it go by.

Did you just make that up?g See if you can prove that the mfgrs
didn't want us to see this happen.

No, that is just common sense. Had the manufacturers thought it would
have sold they would have been making them today. They chose not to let
us have the opportunity.

PROVE IT! Don't just guess it. (See how it feels, turkey?)



The cost of seatbelts or gas is extremely small compared to the cost
of the car. The added safety was felt to be worth it by both the
gov't and most of the people, so it was instituted.

How do you figure, go to a dealership and order a seat belt and tell me
if you think a seat belt is small in price...

AND besides what does cost have to do with your way of thinking. I have
the idea that you will reject the SawStop if it were required and was
only $50 more expensive.

Not true. But I'd sure hate to pay it to Gass, now that I've seen a
tiny bit of his playbook.


I can only imagine the discussions that would have been had when the
regular guard was mandated. Surely that increased the price of every
saw, way back when, when most people did not have an extra dollar or two
to spend each month. It knocked plenty out of the market for a new saw.

A few bucks for a guard vs. a few HUNDRED for a safety mechanism.
That's not -quite- on the same level, is it?

You totally missed the point. I cannot explain it any simpler.

No, you missed it, Leon. A guard adds little to the overall price. A
SS could -triple- the cost of an inexpensive saw. A few bucks can be
saved up for, but triple the cost takes the things right out of the
realm of -possibility- for poor people. People who need things saved
for them, both then and now.


Actually yes it is on the same level. When the current regular guard
was mandated most using these saws did not have a dollar or two to
spare. It is all relative. Gas and vehicles are about 20 times more
expensive than 40 years ago, those guards go back farther. Now lets
take a $300 Saw Stop option and divide that by 20 and I get $15, all
things being relative..

I paid $119 for my refurb Ryobi saw. A $300 option would have put it
up to about $600 retail. Lots of people buy the cheap 10" saws, Leon.
Not everyone can afford $4k for a SS or Unisaw. Check your reference
levels.

Apples new saws, Oranges, refurbished saws.

New they're $150-200. Apples to apples. Jesus, buy a clue, dude!


Now change that to a new saw and adjust prices 50 years ago to todays
prices or visa versa.

See my points above.


We in this day and age are not unique from earlier decades, we still
have things we oppose but we do still have a choice to buy or not to
buy, just as they did then. My grand father himself built several
homes for his family, my mother and her two daughters, and a couple of
sisters, and sister in-laws. According to my mother, in the mid 40's,
power tools were still not in the budget to build the last that he built.

This is no different.

Bull! There was no regulation back then like the one which threatens
us now, thanks to SS.

None that "you" know of, do some research.

Do you know of specific regs back then? If so, let me know. There
weren't many. The nanny state came up way later. We grew up in it.

Ummm the guard was not an option.

Neither was an electric table saw, for most people. There might have
been one per large construction company back then. Homeowners didn't
get them until the late fifties/early sixties, I believe.


Does Ralph Nader ring a bell?

I guarantee he wasn't ruining Corvairs or contractor lives in the
'40s.

What ever!

g

--
Let no man imagine that he has no influence. Whoever he may be, and
wherever he may be placed, the man who thinks becomes a light and a power.
-- Henry George

Dave wrote in
:

On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 07:57:47 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
Don't blame the current big box stores for bringing poor quality
lumber,
they are not the producers and I recall seeing "****" poor lumber,
8'
2x4's with a 7 inch bow, long before I ever saw a HomePro/Builders
Square.Home Depot or Lowes.

Sure it's their fault. They could supply the better quality stuff if
they wanted to. But, before a dozen people reply, I'll admit that the
demand for cheaper products is driven by the consumer.


Where I think the quality/price battle is being lost is in educating the
purchaser. Menards carries 4x8 sheets of Birch-faced plywood. One
stack is priced at $30, and the other stack is priced at $40. What's
the difference?

There's nothing on the display to indicate what's different and the guy
at the store doesn't know, so how am I supposed to make an informed
decision? All I have to go on is price, and lower is better.

I don't mind paying extra for better quality, but you have to show me
where to look.

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

Leon wrote:
On 4/11/2012 4:18 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:


The cost of seatbelts or gas is extremely small compared to the cost
of the car. The added safety was felt to be worth it by both the
gov't and most of the people, so it was instituted.

How do you figure, go to a dealership and order a seat belt and tell
me if you think a seat belt is small in price...

AND besides what does cost have to do with your way of thinking. I
have the idea that you will reject the SawStop if it were required
and was only $50 more expensive.


I missed Larry's comment above when he first posted it, so I'll tag on to
Leon's reply. I disagree that most people felt seat belts were worth it
when they were mandated. So much so that hardly anybody used them. Look at
the backlash when their use became mandated. It was almost universal. The
fact that they were not at all accepted by the public changes the context of
the discussion.

--

-Mike-

Larry Jaques wrote:
On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 18:46:49 -0500, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 4/11/2012 4:18 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
Snip



IMHO on one wanted to start "the change" Yes cost would have been more
but absolutely not prohibitively expensive... Saw Stop is not having an
issue with actually going from an idea to a start up company and selling
thousands.

Compared to the other selling hundreds of thousands annually, that's a
small number. And the price of the saws SS sells is waaay up there.

You have data to back that up??? I know for a fact that Delta is only
in the hundreds of Unisaws in the last couple of years.

Had you read any of the info on the case, you would have seen it
listed numerous times. Delta, one look at the bloody price they
ask and you'll be able to guess why the sales numbers are slim.
I don't recall which document I read that gave those numbers, but it
was one of the legal papers. Looking online, I see that recalls give
you some interesting numbers.
Ryobo 21.5k, Ridgid 3k, DeWalt 13k, and those are only recalls of
individual models, not the total sales. The numbers are BIG.

http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml11/11066.html
http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml09/09311.html

Hazard: The table saw’s arbor shaft can fail when used with a stacked
blade set (commonly known as a “stacked dado set”), which is used to cut
grooves. The stacked blade set can be ejected from the saw, posing a
potential laceration hazard to consumers.

-- Me: Gosh, that could be very unsettling!

Incidents/Injuries: One World Technologies has received three reports of
shafts failing when used with a stacked dado set. No injuries have been
reported.

Mike Marlow wrote:
Leon wrote:
On 4/11/2012 4:18 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:


The cost of seatbelts or gas is extremely small compared to the cost
of the car. The added safety was felt to be worth it by both the
gov't and most of the people, so it was instituted.

How do you figure, go to a dealership and order a seat belt and tell
me if you think a seat belt is small in price...

AND besides what does cost have to do with your way of thinking. I
have the idea that you will reject the SawStop if it were required
and was only $50 more expensive.


I missed Larry's comment above when he first posted it, so I'll tag on to
Leon's reply. I disagree that most people felt seat belts were worth it
when they were mandated. So much so that hardly anybody used them. Look at
the backlash when their use became mandated. It was almost universal.

That must have been me. They found me and fined me $40. I hope the
roads are safer! Oh..you mean the "backlash" was almost universal...duh.

The
fact that they were not at all accepted by the public changes the context of
the discussion.

"Lee Michaels" leemichaels*nadaspam* at comcast dot net wrote in
eb.com:

"Han" wrote

Well, Gass was/is a patent lawyer
snip
License fees are supposed to be reasonable.

An oxymoron. Nothing about lawyers are reasonable.

Sorry, Lee, I distinctly recall that there is a need for reasonable and
something else (it is called RAND or equivalent) IF (and that is important)
the patentee is forcing manufacturers to use his patents. And being a
patent lawyer, he has that sown up. There appears very little if any
leeway around his patents if he can get the product safety commission to
rule in his favor.

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

Larry Jaques wrote in
:

Han, it wasn't one patent. These expletive deleted guys patented
anything even remotely associated with the process. Depending on who's
quoting it, they took out somewhere between FIFTY and SEVENTY FIVE
patents on this -one- product.

I know, Larry, that there was a bunch of patents. Didn't know it was that
many, but that is the guy's bread and butter (plus caviar).

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

Puckdropper wrote:


Where I think the quality/price battle is being lost is in educating
the purchaser. Menards carries 4x8 sheets of Birch-faced plywood.
One stack is priced at $30, and the other stack is priced at $40.
What's the difference?

There's nothing on the display to indicate what's different and the
guy at the store doesn't know, so how am I supposed to make an
informed decision? All I have to go on is price, and lower is better.

I don't mind paying extra for better quality, but you have to show me
where to look.


Perfect question - and the answer is supposed to lie with the store
personnel. Unfortunately... it doesn't always. But - it's the consumer who
suffers if he/she does not hold the merchandizer to a standard of offering -
and that includes educated staff on the floor.

I know that HD invests a ton of money in educating associates - they
literally provide all of the education any associate could ever need in
every department. Trust me - they do a great job of making knowledge
available, and in theory... required. If local stores don't hold associates
to those standards, then the consumer voice can be a very effective tool in
changing that. HD has teams of people that pay attention to this stuff. I
don't know about Lowe's or Mennards, but I suspect they do like things.

I took hundreds of courses when I worked at HD, and despite what anyone here
wants to say - it is very good training that goes into great detail - if you
want to pursue that level of knowledge. Not all of it is mandatory, but the
mandatory stuff should at least provide the answers to questions like you
pose above. Shameful if any store cannot answer your question.

I'd go to the store manager and I'd go to his district manager to express my
concern. If they don't respond, then simply go to the corporate feedback
channels. They really do look at this stuff. Trust me - I know they do!

--

-Mike-

Swingman wrote in
:

On 4/11/2012 3:07 PM, Han wrote:

I'm sorry you were a patient for 40 years (I hope you were at least an
outpatient, not actually in a bed in the VA for all that time).

LOL I think the terminology is "numbers", not patients. The loudspeaker
in each clinic is continually bellowing out: "Now serving Numbers 756,
757, 758, ...), which means you get to proceed to another window, and
take another number.

The pharmacy windows in the Manhattan VA were just off the main lobby, and
by golly were those lines long ...

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 10:15:59 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
I have a neighbor 2 streets over that has an oil well in their back
yard. ;~)

I am in a new neighborhood and I was laughing and giving the builder
salesman a hard time about that oil well. They had just brought in a
rig to do maintenance work on the well and it was a sight to behold.

I've always wondered how that works? What's to stop a nearby neighbour
from sinking an oil well in his back yard? My thought is that they'd
both be siphoning from the same pool of oil. Does the first neighbour
have whole or partial rights to that pool of oil? How do they
determine who owns what and who has a right to access it? Does a
surface land owner just have rights down into the ground just for his
square surface land rights? And finally, how deep do those rights go?

Honestly, the whole thing seems like a cluster*uck waiting to happen.

On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 08:51:51 -0700, Larry Jaques
with SS, is extremely unethical in my books. It's not the sawstop,
it's the persons behind it which get my dander up.

Consider some of the people in the US who have bilked and defrauded
millions and millions of dollars from many thousands of people. Yet, I
never hear opinions like yours leveled against them. Compared to some
of these big guys, Gass is relatively a small timer, yet he is the one
that gets your goat. Why is that?

On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 12:31:23 -0400, Jack wrote:
In that case, they must be up here in Canukistan too, since Festool
inhabits many tool stores up here. Even a company with a top notch
reputation like Lee Valley Tools sells Festool.

Thanks to MBAthinkers no doubt.

So as far as you are concerned, Lee Valley tools is now run by MBA
thinkers eh?

And despite this travesty of invading MBA thinkers, Lee Valley Tools
is a popular, profitable company with a stellar reputation. That kind
of puts an opposite slant to your MBA thinker rhetoric, don't you
think?

Jack, you are so full of ****, it permeates everything that you touch
or talk about. Rarely, is there rhyme or reason to your bull****. The
only believable thing is that for some reason, you do it to foster
attention.

Dave wrote:
On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 10:15:59 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
I have a neighbor 2 streets over that has an oil well in their back
yard. ;~)

I am in a new neighborhood and I was laughing and giving the builder
salesman a hard time about that oil well. They had just brought in a
rig to do maintenance work on the well and it was a sight to behold.

I've always wondered how that works?

What's to stop a nearby neighbour
from sinking an oil well in his back yard?

As long as he owns all the mineral rights, only the cost of drilling the
well. There are also state laws which may prohibit drilling in certain
areas.

My thought is that they'd
both be siphoning from the same pool of oil.

That's a good chance, depending upon the size of your tract, and the size
of the producing reservoir. in most states, whoever can siphon it off the
fastest gets to keep what he produces from his tract, regardless of the
size of the reservoir.

Does the first neighbour
have whole or partial rights to that pool of oil?

Depends upon whether he owns any of the mineral rights. And he even if he
does, he may be forced to drill himself to get any of it, depending upon
the "pooling" acreage requirements of the state.

How do they
determine who owns what and who has a right to access it?

That varies from state to state, but whoever owns the mineral rights can be
determined by researching the records in the county or parish courthouse
where the deed records are kept.

Does a
surface land owner just have rights down into the ground just for his
square surface land rights?

That depends upon whether the mineral rights were sold with the surface
rights. In many cases, particularly in parts of the country where there is
a history of oil and gas production, mineral rights are often severed and
reserved from the surface rights.

And finally, how deep do those rights go?

All the way to the center of the earth.

Honestly, the whole thing seems like a cluster*uck waiting to happen.

Drilling for oil is an expensive and risky business, not undertaken lightly
and without an enormous amount of due diligence in establishing mineral
rights and ownership BEFORE drilling. There is an old saying in the "oil
bidness" ... " a dry hole cures all land titles" .... a successful well
will bring all sorts of heretofore unknown owners out of the woodwork.

--
www.ewoodshop.com

On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 13:02:48 -0500, Swingman wrote:

Actually, there is more than a grain of truth in both. A crappy
mousetrap indeed led to a better mousetrap.

And think were we would be, without the Model T.

I think the appearance of the internal combustion was a foregone
conclusion.Considering all the uses for oil these days and how it
permeates our very lives, The Model T or something very close to it
would have appeared sooner than later.

"Dave" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 12:31:23 -0400, Jack wrote:
In that case, they must be up here in Canukistan too, since Festool
inhabits many tool stores up here. Even a company with a top notch
reputation like Lee Valley Tools sells Festool.

Thanks to MBAthinkers no doubt.

So as far as you are concerned, Lee Valley tools is now run by MBA
thinkers eh?

I don't know if Rob Lee has an MBA or not but in my dealings with him
(directly) I've been left with the impression that he truly wants to provide
products that people want to buy... at various price points and to satisfy
various tastes. He was also very helpful last year around this time when he
lent me scrub planes for my lecture at Woodworkers Showcase.

Lee Valley also sets up a large booth at Showcase with a bunch of staff and
a lot of tools that you can try out for yourself. I've never had anything
but a good experience with the folks at that booth. For example, this year
when I stopped in there to get some more information on their routers
(planes, not electric) the staff dug into the web site until we both fully
understood how their router plane blade system is designed to facilitate
sharpening. That information allowed me to give a more informed lecture on
routers this year.

Those of us whom have been here on the rec for a long time recall the days
when Rob was a participant. That participation suggests to me that he is
interested in knowing what people think and what they want in ways that goes
beyond bean counting. Not that bean counting isn't important... without
profits organizations fail and we loose!

John

On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 14:18:13 -0700, Larry Jaques
Compared to the other selling hundreds of thousands annually, that's a
small number. And the price of the saws SS sells is waaay up there.

That's a completely disingenuous statement. Putting aside the safety
feature, every review of the SawStop that I've seen states that it's a
quality made table saw with excellent fit and finish.

There are a several comparable table saws (size, capability AND cost)
that can be compared to the SawStop. The General 650 and the
Powermatic PM2000 are two popular, well respected models that come to
mind.

If you're going to attack the SawStop, that you might as well be
attacking other models too. In other words, your statement above is
nothing more than a wasted, misleading opinion.

On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 18:53:54 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

Well said!
(Hitting the 'send now' button a little fast aren't you Leon? )

On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 17:44:44 -0700, Larry Jaques
No, you missed it, Leon. A guard adds little to the overall price. A
SS could -triple- the cost of an inexpensive saw. A few bucks can be
saved up for, but triple the cost takes the things right out of the
realm of -possibility- for poor people. People who need things saved
for them, both then and now.

Sorry, but trotting out the 'poor people' line doesn't cut it. Poor
people are also occasionally known to drink, smoke and buy junk food ~
all discretionary purchases. And all of those discretionary purchases
over the period of a year can add up to a tremendous amount of money.

In other words, an inexpensive table saw of any price is not a
necessity. Aside from those few 'poor people' who might use an
inexpensive table saw to earn a living, your argument is completely
baseless.

On 12 Apr 2012 01:05:08 GMT, Puckdropper
There's nothing on the display to indicate what's different and the guy
at the store doesn't know, so how am I supposed to make an informed
decision? All I have to go on is price, and lower is better.

That's where time and experience comes in. That, and knowing that if
it's coming from Home Depot, youse takes yur chances.

On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 21:18:35 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
I missed Larry's comment above when he first posted it, so I'll tag on to
Leon's reply. I disagree that most people felt seat belts were worth it
when they were mandated. So much so that hardly anybody used them. Look at
the backlash when their use became mandated. It was almost universal. The
fact that they were not at all accepted by the public changes the context of
the discussion.

What changes the context of the discussion is comparing what the
general public felt about seat belts then and what they feel about
them now.

Seat belts save lives and lessen injuries. There's no contesting that.
Between statistics and education, I'm willing to bet that public
attitudes have greatly changed between then and now.

On 12 Apr 2012 01:46:34 GMT, Han wrote:

Larry Jaques wrote in
:

Han, it wasn't one patent. These expletive deleted guys patented
anything even remotely associated with the process. Depending on who's
quoting it, they took out somewhere between FIFTY and SEVENTY FIVE
patents on this -one- product.

I know, Larry, that there was a bunch of patents. Didn't know it was that
many, but that is the guy's bread and butter (plus caviar).

And all the while, they make seemingly altruistic noises (feigning OUR
safety as their driving ambition) in front of regulatory commissions
and in the courtroom...

--
Happiness is not a station you arrive at, but a manner of traveling.
-- Margaret Lee Runbeck

On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 19:09:46 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 4/11/2012 4:50 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:

No, $26,071 out the door new in Dec 2007. Standard cab, 6.5' standard
bed, Northwest towing package (radiator, 2" receiver hitch, larger
battery/alt/wiring), SR5 sport package, 4.7L small V-8, A/C, power
windows/doors, lovely TAN interior (I abhor gray!)


Scratching head.... was that sticker??? Probably not, I paid exactly
$28k drive out but the truck stickered for $34K+

No sticker o mine. I ordered it from the factory. Then, for the
second time in my life, the dealer bent me over. The two times in my
life when I ordered new vehicles from the factory have been
nightmares. Ford's dealer submitted two orders under the same number,
so when my 6 weeks was up, they said "Oops, your truck was never
built." After ordering my Toyota, the dealer came back and said that
the factory wasn't building any more '07s, so they found one close to
what I ordered and I got that. Gold paint (which I like better than
the white I'd ordered) and the towing package were the only two
changes. Oh, and they dropped the price by another grand, totaling $3k
off the retail. It was one of only 3 standard cabs with the tan
interior left available in the USA at the time, too.


But I got,,... ;~) 5.7 V* and honestly getting just under 17 mpg on
average in town driving. 6 auto speed trans, 4 door, SR5, running
boards, bed protector, towing package, AC and pwr doors windows, Stipe,
tinted front windows, Toyota alarm with glass break, mats, sliding back
glass, Alloy wheels, tool box under back seat, extra sound deadening.

Running boards, y'old GOAT? I guess I have the alarm, too, and mats,
which were carefully recalled and found not to be a problem. Oh, one
other change was a stacked CD player: 6 instead of 1.


And a beautiful grey interior and charcoal grey exterior. ;~)

Buick

--
Happiness is not a station you arrive at, but a manner of traveling.
-- Margaret Lee Runbeck

On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 23:24:45 -0400, "John Grossbohlin"
Those of us whom have been here on the rec for a long time recall the days
when Rob was a participant. That participation suggests to me that he is
interested in knowing what people think and what they want in ways that goes
beyond bean counting. Not that bean counting isn't important... without
profits organizations fail and we loose!

He still does participate occasionally, but I'm guessing increasing
business concerns have limited that participation. I know he reads
comments on the Festool owners group and has also replied in several
areas fairly recently.

The entire Festool owners group website is grouped to different topics
and is moderated. Many of those discussions stay on track and are
easier to search. Here? A conversation can and does go off topic at
light speed. So, I'm guess Rob isn't near as active here as he once
was.

On 4/11/2012 7:44 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 18:46:49 -0500, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 4/11/2012 4:18 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
Snip



IMHO on one wanted to start "the change" Yes cost would have been more
but absolutely not prohibitively expensive... Saw Stop is not having an
issue with actually going from an idea to a start up company and selling
thousands.

Compared to the other selling hundreds of thousands annually, that's a
small number. And the price of the saws SS sells is waaay up there.

You have data to back that up??? I know for a fact that Delta is only
in the hundreds of Unisaws in the last couple of years.

Had you read any of the info on the case, you would have seen it
listed numerous times. Delta, one look at the bloody price they
ask and you'll be able to guess why the sales numbers are slim.
I don't recall which document I read that gave those numbers, but it
was one of the legal papers. Looking online, I see that recalls give
you some interesting numbers.

And yet SawStop sells well and is priced similar to the new Unisaw...


Ryobo 21.5k, Ridgid 3k, DeWalt 13k, and those are only recalls of
individual models, not the total sales. The numbers are BIG.

http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml11/11066.html
http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml09/09311.html
http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml08/08259.html

Here ya go: Skil 120,000 http://tinyurl.com/89elgk2

Yeah that shows a lot of problems with saws sold recently.
But does not show comparative sales.




No, that is just common sense. Had the manufacturers thought it would
have sold they would have been making them today. They chose not to let
us have the opportunity.

PROVE IT! Don't just guess it. (See how it feels, turkey?)

You cannot prove something that requires common sense to some one with
out it.


The cost of seatbelts or gas is extremely small compared to the cost
of the car. The added safety was felt to be worth it by both the
gov't and most of the people, so it was instituted.

How do you figure, go to a dealership and order a seat belt and tell me
if you think a seat belt is small in price...

AND besides what does cost have to do with your way of thinking. I have
the idea that you will reject the SawStop if it were required and was
only $50 more expensive.

Not true. But I'd sure hate to pay it to Gass, now that I've seen a
tiny bit of his playbook.

And yet you drive a car with required insurance.



I can only imagine the discussions that would have been had when the
regular guard was mandated. Surely that increased the price of every
saw, way back when, when most people did not have an extra dollar or two
to spend each month. It knocked plenty out of the market for a new saw.

A few bucks for a guard vs. a few HUNDRED for a safety mechanism.
That's not -quite- on the same level, is it?

You totally missed the point. I cannot explain it any simpler.

No, you missed it, Leon. A guard adds little to the overall price. A
SS could -triple- the cost of an inexpensive saw. A few bucks can be
saved up for, but triple the cost takes the things right out of the
realm of -possibility- for poor people. People who need things saved
for them, both then and now.

No you missed the point. ;~) A few bucks 50~60 years ago equates to
hundreds today.

On 4/11/2012 8:18 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Leon wrote:
On 4/11/2012 4:18 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:


The cost of seatbelts or gas is extremely small compared to the cost
of the car. The added safety was felt to be worth it by both the
gov't and most of the people, so it was instituted.

How do you figure, go to a dealership and order a seat belt and tell
me if you think a seat belt is small in price...

AND besides what does cost have to do with your way of thinking. I
have the idea that you will reject the SawStop if it were required
and was only $50 more expensive.


I missed Larry's comment above when he first posted it, so I'll tag on to
Leon's reply. I disagree that most people felt seat belts were worth it
when they were mandated. So much so that hardly anybody used them. Look at
the backlash when their use became mandated. It was almost universal. The
fact that they were not at all accepted by the public changes the context of
the discussion.


LOL, I do recall all the complaints. The chest harness section of the
belt was a separate piece had had to be rehung above the drivers door or
it would get close up in the door when you exited. And then there was
the pressure against one's "breasts" that was uncomfortable.

And there was the "I don't want the government telling me that I have to
wear seat belts." I am a safe driver and not foolish like the other
drivers. Seat belts are going to cause more accidents because drivers
will have a false sense of security.


My favorite was when the government limited speedometers to 85 mph.
That was dangerous as you could not tell how much over 85 mph you were
actually driving. Am I going 95 or 125??? LOL

On 4/11/2012 11:03 PM, Dave wrote:
On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 21:18:35 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
I missed Larry's comment above when he first posted it, so I'll tag on to
Leon's reply. I disagree that most people felt seat belts were worth it
when they were mandated. So much so that hardly anybody used them. Look at
the backlash when their use became mandated. It was almost universal. The
fact that they were not at all accepted by the public changes the context of
the discussion.

What changes the context of the discussion is comparing what the
general public felt about seat belts then and what they feel about
them now.

Seat belts save lives and lessen injuries. There's no contesting that.
Between statistics and education, I'm willing to bet that public
attitudes have greatly changed between then and now.

As they will with the SawStop. Although the SawStop is being widely
accepted. There will be the exception hold outs however. And they will
continue to believe we never landed on the moon, etc.

On 4/11/2012 10:44 PM, Dave wrote:
On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 18:53:54 -0500, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

Well said!
(Hitting the 'send now' button a little fast aren't you Leon? )

LOL.... Intentionally blank. Borrowing a tactic from Keith Bond. The
banter was like me saying red him saying green. Pick the opposite for a
response.

On 4/11/2012 9:31 PM, Dave wrote:
On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 08:51:51 -0700, Larry Jaques
with SS, is extremely unethical in my books. It's not the sawstop,
it's the persons behind it which get my dander up.

Consider some of the people in the US who have bilked and defrauded
millions and millions of dollars from many thousands of people. Yet, I
never hear opinions like yours leveled against them. Compared to some
of these big guys, Gass is relatively a small timer, yet he is the one
that gets your goat. Why is that?

Because Larry "thinks" no one is telling him what to do and wants to
keep it that way. He must have a great set of blinders to filter out
what he does not want to see.

On 4/11/2012 9:25 PM, Dave wrote:
On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 10:15:59 -0500, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet
I have a neighbor 2 streets over that has an oil well in their back
yard. ;~)

I am in a new neighborhood and I was laughing and giving the builder
salesman a hard time about that oil well. They had just brought in a
rig to do maintenance work on the well and it was a sight to behold.

I've always wondered how that works? What's to stop a nearby neighbour
from sinking an oil well in his back yard? My thought is that they'd
both be siphoning from the same pool of oil. Does the first neighbour
have whole or partial rights to that pool of oil? How do they
determine who owns what and who has a right to access it? Does a
surface land owner just have rights down into the ground just for his
square surface land rights? And finally, how deep do those rights go?

Honestly, the whole thing seems like a cluster*uck waiting to happen.

In addition to Swingman's comments, IIRC there is also

1. Deed Restrictions.


This particular well is on about 1 acre piece of land that is accessed
from a road that is outside of the neighborhood and it was there long
before the land was developed into a master planed community.

This particular well is serviced with the rig about every 12 months for
a couple of weeks. Normally you do not see the pump behind the 8' tall
fence.

On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 07:24:33 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
Seat belts save lives and lessen injuries. There's no contesting that.
Between statistics and education, I'm willing to bet that public
attitudes have greatly changed between then and now.

As they will with the SawStop. Although the SawStop is being widely
accepted. There will be the exception hold outs however. And they will
continue to believe we never landed on the moon, etc.

I can still remember. 1964 in my father's Rambler station wagon, I was
10 years old at the time. He hit the brakes and my head crashed into
the dashboard. I wasn't seriously hurt, but it's something I've always
remembered as if it was yesterday.

Not from the get go, have I ever had a problem with wearing a seat
belt. In addition, I'm reasonably sure that a seat belt has saved my
life and I have the picture to prove it.

Provided my height criteria was met by a SawStop, I wouldn't have a
problem with one either, despite all the hoopla. It just makes sense
to me. What else is there to consider?

On 4/11/2012 11:32 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 19:09:46 -0500, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 4/11/2012 4:50 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:

No, $26,071 out the door new in Dec 2007. Standard cab, 6.5' standard
bed, Northwest towing package (radiator, 2" receiver hitch, larger
battery/alt/wiring), SR5 sport package, 4.7L small V-8, A/C, power
windows/doors, lovely TAN interior (I abhor gray!)


Scratching head.... was that sticker??? Probably not, I paid exactly
$28k drive out but the truck stickered for $34K+

No sticker o mine. I ordered it from the factory.

Well there was a sticker, that is law but they do not have to attach it
unless it goes on the lot for to be sold. The vehicles I have ordered
all had stickers that were given to me when I gave them a check.


Then, for the
second time in my life, the dealer bent me over. The two times in my
life when I ordered new vehicles from the factory have been
nightmares. Ford's dealer submitted two orders under the same number,
so when my 6 weeks was up, they said "Oops, your truck was never
built." After ordering my Toyota, the dealer came back and said that
the factory wasn't building any more '07s, so they found one close to
what I ordered and I got that.

Buying an 07 in Dec of 07, yeah I imagine there we no more 07's being
built any more. I am suprised that the 08's were not already in
production. I bought my 07 in the middle of July and that was near the
end of the build year.


Gold paint (which I like better than
the white I'd ordered) and the towing package were the only two
changes. Oh, and they dropped the price by another grand, totaling $3k
off the retail. It was one of only 3 standard cabs with the tan
interior left available in the USA at the time, too.

I originally ordered silver but I really like the charcoal grey.
I got about the same deal on mine as the one I originally ordered with
the V6 because I was ready to close the deal and they would not have to
order another unit. Read that as a bird in the hand is worth two in the
bush.



But I got,,... ;~) 5.7 V* and honestly getting just under 17 mpg on
average in town driving. 6 auto speed trans, 4 door, SR5, running
boards, bed protector, towing package, AC and pwr doors windows, Stipe,
tinted front windows, Toyota alarm with glass break, mats, sliding back
glass, Alloy wheels, tool box under back seat, extra sound deadening.

Running boards, y'old GOAT?

LOL. My wife insisted, it is a tall step for her and those that ride in
the back.
I think I have opened the sliding back glass once to see how it worked.

I guess I have the alarm, too, and mats,
which were carefully recalled and found not to be a problem. Oh, one
other change was a stacked CD player: 6 instead of 1.

I think they all came with some type of integrated alarm, they added the
glass break sensor, a little doo dad on the center dash next to the MP3
jack.

I really really like the tool box under the back seat, I keep jumper
cables, tie downs, etc under there.

I am not sure if my mats have a problem or not, I took them out and put
in the HD rubber mats that hold melted ice, snow. Not that this a
problem in Houston but we do get rain and the mats keep the water off of
the carpet.


And a beautiful grey interior and charcoal grey exterior. ;~)

Buick

--
Happiness is not a station you arrive at, but a manner of traveling.
-- Margaret Lee Runbeck

On 4/12/2012 7:43 AM, Dave wrote:
On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 07:24:33 -0500, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet
Seat belts save lives and lessen injuries. There's no contesting that.
Between statistics and education, I'm willing to bet that public
attitudes have greatly changed between then and now.

As they will with the SawStop. Although the SawStop is being widely
accepted. There will be the exception hold outs however. And they will
continue to believe we never landed on the moon, etc.


I can still remember. 1964 in my father's Rambler station wagon, I was
10 years old at the time. He hit the brakes and my head crashed into
the dashboard. I wasn't seriously hurt, but it's something I've always
remembered as if it was yesterday.

1992 My wife was taking our 5 year old son to kindergarten. Before she
got out of the neighborhood she hit the brake and he was still putzing
around with the seat belt. His head shattered the windshield.

I was ****ed at her and he never screwed around with the seat belt when
momma was driving. Apparently no brain damage, he graduated Suma Cum
Laude 16 years later and and got his masters one year after that and got
his CPA's license 18 months after that.


I'll have to see if he still remembers the windshield.

On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 08:21:27 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
I was ****ed at her and he never screwed around with the seat belt when
momma was driving. Apparently no brain damage, he graduated Suma Cum
Laude 16 years later and and got his masters one year after that and got
his CPA's license 18 months after that.

Maybe that head bang was the impetus needed to trigger that drive for
the Summa cum Laude.

I'll have to see if he still remembers the windshield.

Betcha he does. Right now with my depreciating memory, I can still
remember back to a few memories at age 4.

On 4/12/2012 7:41 AM, Leon wrote:
On 4/11/2012 9:25 PM, Dave wrote:
On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 10:15:59 -0500, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet
I have a neighbor 2 streets over that has an oil well in their back
yard. ;~)

I am in a new neighborhood and I was laughing and giving the builder
salesman a hard time about that oil well. They had just brought in a
rig to do maintenance work on the well and it was a sight to behold.

I've always wondered how that works? What's to stop a nearby neighbour
from sinking an oil well in his back yard? My thought is that they'd
both be siphoning from the same pool of oil. Does the first neighbour
have whole or partial rights to that pool of oil? How do they
determine who owns what and who has a right to access it? Does a
surface land owner just have rights down into the ground just for his
square surface land rights? And finally, how deep do those rights go?

Honestly, the whole thing seems like a cluster*uck waiting to happen.

In addition to Swingman's comments, IIRC there is also

1. Deed Restrictions.

But, you stand a good chance of not winning by relying on "deed
restrictions" in that regard in a Texas court.

In Texas the "mineral estate" has been historically held to be the
dominant estate over the "surface estate".

Case law has made it very difficult to prohibit the owner of the
minerals from exercising the enjoyment of his rights as a mineral owner,
including physically drilling on the "surface estate", deed restrictions
be damned.

IOW, theoretically, at least in Texas and concerning these two separate
estates, you can't prohibit/nullify the property rights of a third
party, by contract between the two parties to a deed on the surface of
that land.

That said, as in all legal matters, you may have to sue to find out, and
be in for a rude surprise, for each specific case.

www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

"Dave" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 23:24:45 -0400, "John Grossbohlin"
Those of us whom have been here on the rec for a long time recall the days
when Rob was a participant. That participation suggests to me that he is
interested in knowing what people think and what they want in ways that
goes
beyond bean counting. Not that bean counting isn't important... without
profits organizations fail and we loose!

He still does participate occasionally, but I'm guessing increasing
business concerns have limited that participation. I know he reads
comments on the Festool owners group and has also replied in several
areas fairly recently.

The entire Festool owners group website is grouped to different topics
and is moderated. Many of those discussions stay on track and are
easier to search. Here? A conversation can and does go off topic at
light speed. So, I'm guess Rob isn't near as active here as he once
was.

Yup... that's what he told me about why he isn't here the way he was... The
signal to noise ratio is out of whack here at times for sure!

On 4/11/2012 7:52 PM, Leon wrote:

Jack says:
Well, that's an industrial vac with a stainless steel tank, not
something someone not driving a Lincoln Pickup would buy for his shop.
More like something an MBAthinker might buy for his company for tax
purposes, or a gov't manager to insure spending all his budget to avoid
any cuts.

You always have an out or excuse.

You show me a shop vac that, while expensive, is still less than a
Festool and I called you on it, sorry. Then a giant stainless steel
industrial vac that few to no home or even small shop owners would buy,
and I called you on it. Not excuses, just how it is.

I actually was surprised you didn't come up with something like this:

http://www.americanvacuum.com/vacuum...central-vacuum

AAMOF you can buy the same brand vac
with stainless steel for less than $250.

$250 is way less than a festool, although still pricy when you can buy
one for under $100 that sucks just fine.

And what is your fetish with a lincoln PU???? Did one blow you off the
road???

A Lincoln pick up is purchased by the same guy that buys a caddy
convertible, mounts some Texan longhorns for the hood ornament, installs
some god awful musical air horns, and rides around town waving his 10
gallon hat, annoying, or attracting all the wimmin.

I'm reasonably certain the Lincoln pu was a great truck, I doubt Ford
lowered the quality just to fill the gaudy market.

You seem to have a hard on against a lot of products.

Wrong partner, you try to say I think Festools are junk, never said
that, just as I never said Lincoln pick ups were junk. My pick up will
probably haul as much, tow as much, plow just as much snow, and last
just as long as a Lincoln pick up will, at a lot less money. My 30 some
year old $80 shop vac will vacuum all the dust out of your $500 festool
sander, just as it does my $100 sander. That doesn't mean festool is
junk, it means cheaper can be good enough.

If anything, it's you that seem to think only Festool owners know or
value quality tools, and if it ain't Festool, or Laguna, it's not worth
owning. When Larry said he likes his Makita, you told him he only
THINKS he likes it... Wow, major issues you have there.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com