On 4/10/2012 4:39 PM, tiredofspam wrote:
If you are ever at Lake George again consider renting an island.
You have to reserve it early. But camping on those islands is great.
The breeze is refreshing. The water clear. The fishing unbeleavable. My
BIL and I went out at 5am and we were just trolling, and he caught a
lake trout without a down rigger. It was unbelievable watching him take
this fish in. The dance on the water was outstanding.

They have bass by the buckets. The kids (all young then) had a blast.

They have islands with 1,2,3 ... 120 camping spots. So you can pick
yours out. We liked the north east side of the lake for camping.

We went on one of the boat tours and saw those islands. Looked great
but our camping days are long past us. At one time camping was a large
part of our free time and we commented how great it would have been to
take our boat and camp on one of those islands.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 4/10/2012 8:35 PM, Leon wrote:
On 4/10/2012 1:24 PM, Jack wrote:
On 4/10/2012 1:04 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 4/10/2012 11:45 AM, Jack wrote:

It's is the MBA guys running things that make all the stuff available,
the good the bad and the ugly.

Such a ridiculous statement that it deserves to stand by itself for
posterity.

No more ridiculous than your constant whining about everything being the
fault of "MBAthink"

You actually think Festool doesn't have a few MBAthinkers running around
figuring out how to pry large sums of cash out of the pockets of Texans?

You maybe think that we that can afford a quality tool are sick and
tired of paying for crap and Festool recognizes that?

Yes, the MBAthinkers at Festool have a clear view of Texans and their
wallets, just as the MBAthinkers at Ryobi have a clear view of the moths
in Larry's.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 4/11/2012 8:45 AM, Dave wrote:
On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 09:42:39 -0400, tiredofspamnospam.nospam.com
Without the lower end stuff as a baseline, the higher end products
would likely never have come to be.
WHAT? Where'd you get that from?

I was thinking the opposite, but I wrote it down ass backwards. Mea
Culpa.

Actually, there is more than a grain of truth in both. A crappy
mousetrap indeed led to a better mousetrap.

And think were we would be, without the Model T.

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On 4/11/2012 8:25 AM, Leon wrote:
On 4/10/2012 10:01 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On 4/10/2012 11:45 AM, Jack wrote:

You actually think Festool doesn't have a few MBAthinkers running
around figuring out how to pry large sums of cash out of the pockets of
Texans?

You maybe think that we that can afford a quality tool are sick and
tired of paying for crap and Festool recognizes that?

While that's entirely possible, I think the more plausible reason is
that they decided to play to the top end and spent more time building
better tools/features (and jacking up prices) than most mfgrs do. Lee
Valley, Bridge City, Lie Nielsen, Rolls Royce, Land's End, Apple,
Nordstrom, SaurStop, and a few others do that, too. I strongly doubt
-any- were built on anything resembling altruism, though.

Was altruism even in the topic?

The topic was MBAthink is likely just as responsible for cheap Ryobi as
well as expensive Festool.

I was under the impression that the
discussion had singled out Festool and its ungodly color and it being
the "most expensive vac on earth" and people paying unbelievable amounts
to have one. 3 Totally ignorant statements.

Festool green is ugly.
$500+ for a common shop vac is the most expensive I've seen.
Unbelievable is accurate for this item, of course the MBAthinkers at
Festool apparently don't think so, I'll give you that one.

Well, I believe you think you are just as happy with your Makita as I am
with my Festool.

Yeah, what does Larry know? Poor sap probably can't afford to spend 500
on a shop Vac either, or just doesn't think it's worth it. Thanks to
MBAthink, he can buy what he wants.

But when it comes to power tools I choose my safety,
accuracy, and ease of use, and life expectancy when making purchases.

Yeah, and the rest of us mortals never think of any of that stuff, we
just buy whatever the market throws at us.

Damn, this Harbor Fright clamp sucks, think I'll buy another dozen...

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 4/11/2012 11:31 AM, Jack wrote:
On 4/10/2012 4:00 PM, Dave wrote:
On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 14:24:10 -0400, wrote:
You actually think Festool doesn't have a few MBAthinkers running around
figuring out how to pry large sums of cash out of the pockets of Texans?

In that case, they must be up here in Canukistan too, since Festool
inhabits many tool stores up here. Even a company with a top notch
reputation like Lee Valley Tools sells Festool.

Thanks to MBAthinkers no doubt.

If Festool was as disreputable as you seem to think,

You truly are an idiot. I don't think Festool is disreputable in the
least, no more than I think Ford is disreputable for making a Lincoln
Pickup truck, or Bentley for making a $500,000 car.

Yeah Jack I believe it has already been said, can't unsay it. Or are
you back peddling now... In case you for got what you said...


"Festool builds the most expensive shop vac on earth, their MBAthinkers
decided to go for the market that wants top quality and wants everyone
to know they paid unbelievable amounts to get it, so they paint them
ungodly green. "


Now because all of those above comments are totally exaggerated and not
true at all you obviously meant no good.

On 4/11/2012 8:45 AM, Leon wrote:
On 4/10/2012 9:32 PM, tiredofspam wrote:
Yea HD does that, so does my lumber yard for stuff that moves quickly,
like sheathing and stuff. But for cab grade they put it upright when
they move a flat in ( I assume it doesn't move as quickly). Its tougher
on the edges. But it also allows you to go in an look through the ply.


I can't say I have ever seen plywood stored on edge by any retailer or
lumber yard. Absolutely not doubting you, that is the way I store it but
IMHO not the best way.

Me neither, but it is the way I store it. It may be the best way if you
have limited space. Not the best way if your space is measured in acres.


--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

Dave wrote in
news
On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 09:04:28 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
And again, even if you will no longer be able to buy a TS without This
technology you are not being forced to buy it. Use a hand saw if you
are so inclined to not buy the product, the decision is all .

Well, if such a law makes its way up to Canada, I'll be asking for a
medical exemption. When I next buy a table saw, I'd buy a SawStop, but
they don't make a lowered version to use from a sitting position. So,
it's a General Access version I'd be buying.

I contacted SawStop and inquired if their saws could be lowered, but
they told me their saws had too many mechanics to allow for that
possibility.

Dave, when it gets near the time for you to buy a tablesaw, we should set
up a petition on FB to get you the version you want. Those petition things
seem to be doing the job of putting pressure on companies, if so justified
of course, which is definitely true in your case!

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

On 4/11/2012 10:51 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 09:04:28 -0500, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 4/11/2012 7:52 AM, Han wrote:
Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
:

On 4/10/2012 10:01 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
snip
Whatever the market will bear. Damn the torpedos, full retail ahead!
And that's OK, as long as CONgresscritters don't force them down our
throats. I'm just as happy with my Makitas and HF tools as you are
with your Festools, and that's the way it should be.

What in the world are you talking about, what is being forced down
your throat? I am certainly not having any thing forced down my
throat. If I don't want to buy something I simply don't buy it....
snip

Larry may be referring to the SawStop, perhaps? It isn't Congress,
directly, but the institution(s) they set up (Product Safety Commission?)
that may or may not "force" that saw on us.


Larry has a love hate relationship with SawStop.

True. I like the concept. But I'm in extreme disagreement with the
way the inventors went about the process. If they hadn't wanted so
much money, one or more of the manufacturers would have jumped at the
chance to offer the first saw equipped with the technology. And for
them to side against Ryobi, who dropped the contractual agreements
with SS, is extremely unethical in my books. It's not the sawstop,
it's the persons behind it which get my dander up.

Pot, Black, Larry

If they hadn't wanted so much money one or more of the manufacturers
would have jumped at the chance to offer the first saw equipped with the
technology. Did you just make that up? Did you assume that? Did a
manufacturer actually say that???

IMHO on one wanted to start "the change" Yes cost would have been more
but absolutely not prohibitively expensive... Saw Stop is not having an
issue with actually going from an idea to a start up company and selling
thousands.

Obviously the competition guessed and gambled wrong. They turned down
the opportunity to be the first and to be in the position that Saw Stop
is in today.

Did the guys at SawStop proceed in a way that ****ed a few people off?
Absoluteness! It ****es me off that the other manufacturers did not
want us to see this happen by not even giving it a try. But I'll get
over it, life is too short to worry about how Delta, or Jet, or
Powermatic are going to make out should this standard be mandated. they
had their chance and watched it go by.



Don't tell him about
seat belts, the odor added to natural gas, or unleaded fuel.

Au contraire, mon ami. I have happily worn seatbelts since owning my
first car, a '57 Chebby Bel Air, in 1969. Dad mandated it and I
thought it was a good idea from the getgo. I have no problem with
odorants in the gas, either, as it saves lives and costs very little.


But unleaded fuel got my goat several times. I used to have a
California smog license and had to install vapor injectors per the
CARB (CA Air Resources Board). I watched the devices kill perfectly
good engines when their owners forgot to add water to them, and I saw
the number of engines needing overhauls increase dramatically from the
lack of padding lead in the fuel. I also read about the goodness
coming from it, so that was a love/hate relationship, too. Sest lavvy,
wot? (Translation for Leon: C'est la vie, oui?, or That's Life, eh?)


And again, even if you will no longer be able to buy a TS without This
technology you are not being forced to buy it. Use a hand saw if you
are so inclined to not buy the product, the decision is all .

For one man [actually a (is "toxic" redundant here?) set of 4
attorneys] to monopolize an industry via regulations is antithetical
to what our United States Gov't means to me.


Apply that to your seat belts and unleaded gas.




I can only imagine the discussions that would have been had when the
regular guard was mandated. Surely that increased the price of every
saw, way back when, when most people did not have an extra dollar or two
to spend each month. It knocked plenty out of the market for a new saw.

A few bucks for a guard vs. a few HUNDRED for a safety mechanism.
That's not -quite- on the same level, is it?


Actually yes it is on the same level. When the current regular guard
was mandated most using these saws did not have a dollar or two to
spare. It is all relative. Gas and vehicles are about 20 times more
expensive than 40 years ago, those guards go back farther. Now lets
take a $300 Saw Stop option and divide that by 20 and I get $15, all
things being relative..







We in this day and age are not unique from earlier decades, we still
have things we oppose but we do still have a choice to buy or not to
buy, just as they did then. My grand father himself built several
homes for his family, my mother and her two daughters, and a couple of
sisters, and sister in-laws. According to my mother, in the mid 40's,
power tools were still not in the budget to build the last that he built.

This is no different.

Bull! There was no regulation back then like the one which threatens
us now, thanks to SS.

None that "you" know of, do some research.

Does Ralph Nader ring a bell?

"Mike Marlow" wrote in news:495c6$4f85bad8
:


Well, Gass was/is a patent lawyer, and he had every right to make his
patent(s) watertight (as it/they apparently is/are). Whether he has the
right to charge as much as he wanted for a license is another question that
litigation should clarify. License fees are supposed to be reasonable. I
was flabbergasted that the Ryobi lawsuit was so successful up through the
appellate stage. That shouldn't have happened, IMNSHO.

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
:

On 4/11/2012 8:14 AM, Han wrote:
wrote in
:

On 4/11/2012 7:36 AM, Han wrote:

While the current high prices in the US are an aberration,
inflation has made 1 USD in 1970 worth over $6 in 2012.


Shhhhhhh ... the congresscritters have insured that fuel and food
are not indexed in inflation.

That has to be one of the more egregious actions pulled on the
sheeple, but they don't seem to give it a thought.

Where inthe job description of the sheeple does it say anything about
thinking? As the janitor told me, common sense is a misnomer, it
isn't common at all.

And since when does common sense make a person anywhere near smart???
LOL

Common sense is common, it is just that if you don't at least have
common sense you are an idiot.

That is a different common sense than I know. But perhaps that is
because I worked for 34 years in a VA hospital, where things were often
done because ...

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

On 4/11/2012 10:42 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:

I have never experienced a piece of wood twisting on me (that wasn't already
twisted in the store...), in the simple time to get it home and into my
shop. Maybe I just got lucky.

Me neither. I guess we're both just lucky.

I do remember the very first oak table I made with turned legs made out
of pallet wood. One leg had a knot in it and after a short time, the
leg bent right at the knot. The table is still in use at my mothers
house though, and the drawer in it only opens in the dead of winter:-)

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 4/11/2012 12:02 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
writes:
The lumber at my HD is as good or better
than the same grade lumber sold around here in 1970's.

In other words, you were getting **** in the 70's, and you're getting
**** today.

No, I was getting #2 lumber then, just as now.

Clearly, there will be geographical differences in what is available.

Very likely.

In the west, in the 70's, even regular studs were old-growth douglas
fir, tight straight grain.

Not around here. If fact, long before the 70's old growth (domestic)
lumber was all but non existent around here. Most all old growth
forests were cut and milled long, long ago, and the few remaining are
not accessible to loggers.

In the 70's, old-growth redwood was common
and beautiful. Good luck finding either today.

In the early 70's I bought a redwood picnic table. I actually thought
it was Redwood. When I started assembling it, turned out it was really
white wood (pine) stained red. I actually, in my youth, called the
Better Business Bureau and he asked if it was Redwood or redwood...

Anyway, I didn't think Redwood grew anywhere but California, and cutting
those babies was not happening anymore?

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 4/11/2012 1:10 PM, Jack wrote:
On 4/11/2012 8:25 AM, Leon wrote:
On 4/10/2012 10:01 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On 4/10/2012 11:45 AM, Jack wrote:

You actually think Festool doesn't have a few MBAthinkers running
around figuring out how to pry large sums of cash out of the
pockets of
Texans?

You maybe think that we that can afford a quality tool are sick and
tired of paying for crap and Festool recognizes that?

While that's entirely possible, I think the more plausible reason is
that they decided to play to the top end and spent more time building
better tools/features (and jacking up prices) than most mfgrs do. Lee
Valley, Bridge City, Lie Nielsen, Rolls Royce, Land's End, Apple,
Nordstrom, SaurStop, and a few others do that, too. I strongly doubt
-any- were built on anything resembling altruism, though.

Was altruism even in the topic?

The topic was MBAthink is likely just as responsible for cheap Ryobi as
well as expensive Festool.

I was under the impression that the
discussion had singled out Festool and its ungodly color and it being
the "most expensive vac on earth" and people paying unbelievable amounts
to have one. 3 Totally ignorant statements.

Festool green is ugly.
$500+ for a common shop vac is the most expensive I've seen.
Unbelievable is accurate for this item, of course the MBAthinkers at
Festool apparently don't think so, I'll give you that one.


Small world you live in. A moments search turned up..

other brand "most expensive on earth" vaccuums.

And this one has no mention of a HEPA filter. Ugly Orange and Butt
Ugly. And I am sure worth every penny.

http://www.woodcraft.com/product/202...extractor.aspx

And if you really want to get expensive in the "ShopVac brand,

http://www.google.com/products/catal...d=0CIwBEPMCMAM




Well, I believe you think you are just as happy with your Makita as I am
with my Festool.

Yeah, what does Larry know? Poor sap probably can't afford to spend 500
on a shop Vac either, or just doesn't think it's worth it. Thanks to
MBAthink, he can buy what he wants.

He is not foolish or gullible Jack, at least I do not think so however
you might be.



But when it comes to power tools I choose my safety,
accuracy, and ease of use, and life expectancy when making purchases.

Yeah, and the rest of us mortals never think of any of that stuff, we
just buy whatever the market throws at us.

Damn, this Harbor Fright clamp sucks, think I'll buy another dozen...



Your words!

On 4/11/2012 12:39 PM, Jack wrote:
On 4/10/2012 8:35 PM, Leon wrote:
On 4/10/2012 1:24 PM, Jack wrote:
On 4/10/2012 1:04 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 4/10/2012 11:45 AM, Jack wrote:

It's is the MBA guys running things that make all the stuff available,
the good the bad and the ugly.

Such a ridiculous statement that it deserves to stand by itself for
posterity.

No more ridiculous than your constant whining about everything being the
fault of "MBAthink"

You actually think Festool doesn't have a few MBAthinkers running around
figuring out how to pry large sums of cash out of the pockets of Texans?

You maybe think that we that can afford a quality tool are sick and
tired of paying for crap and Festool recognizes that?

Yes, the MBAthinkers at Festool have a clear view of Texans and their
wallets, just as the MBAthinkers at Ryobi have a clear view of the moths
in Larry's.


Did you graduate?

Jack writes:

In the 70's, old-growth redwood was common
and beautiful. Good luck finding either today.

In the early 70's I bought a redwood picnic table. I actually thought
it was Redwood. When I started assembling it, turned out it was really
white wood (pine) stained red. I actually, in my youth, called the
Better Business Bureau and he asked if it was Redwood or redwood...

Anyway, I didn't think Redwood grew anywhere but California, and cutting
those babies was not happening anymore?

If you'd read what I wrote, you would have noticed the "In the 70's" and
"good luck finding it today".

As it happens, there is still quite a bit of redwood being cut, as it grows
relatively fast. None of it is old-growth (100+ year old trees), the few
that are left are protected.

Of that which _is_ being cut, there is much less heartwood, which is the
most insect and rot resistant. Most wood fencing material in california
is redwood, still.

scott
(still holding onto two nice redwood burl slabs - 48 x 30 x 3 waney).

On 4/11/2012 11:06 AM, Jack wrote:
On 4/10/2012 2:01 PM, Leon wrote:
On 4/10/2012 11:45 AM, Jack wrote:

Sorry, but all markets are filled. Larry can buy his cheap stuff, I can
buy my mediocre stuff, and you and Leon can buy your overpriced, I mean,
top quality stuff. The largest market is the cheap stuff, so that is
what abounds, the smallest market is the high priced stuff, so it
doesn't abound. It's as simple as that.

Well since you have mention me I will make a comment. Until you have
actually purchased and used all levels of and including quality tools
and equipment you will never ever understand how higher quality is the
better choice every time. You may now put your head back in the sand.

Out of curiosity, do you drive a Bentley and your pickup is a Lincoln,
or don't you understand what a quality vehicle is?

I retired from the automotive industry at age 40 and comfortably. I
certainly know what a quality vehicle is. But since you are asking me,
do you?



Do you really think you're the only one that uses/recognizes good tools
because you own a $500 vacuum cleaner? Sometimes I wonder where your
head is, and sand ain't it.



Jack you are just jealous, I have see your kind of response time and
again. I am sure you recognize what a good tool Festool and Saw Stop
are but your belligerence will not allow you to admit it. Too bad.

On 4/11/2012 10:00 AM, Drew Lawson wrote:
In article3POdnVAxzshi4RjSnZ2dnUVZ5judnZ2d@giganews. com
Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet writes:
On 4/10/2012 9:32 PM, tiredofspam wrote:
Yea HD does that, so does my lumber yard for stuff that moves quickly,
like sheathing and stuff. But for cab grade they put it upright when
they move a flat in ( I assume it doesn't move as quickly). Its tougher
on the edges. But it also allows you to go in an look through the ply.


I can't say I have ever seen plywood stored on edge by any retailer or
lumber yard. Absolutely not doubting you, that is the way I store it
but IMHO not the best way.

My local Woodcraft has their baltic birch plywood on edge, at least
the partial sheets. I didn't spot the full sheets.



Yeah I will admit to seeing the partial sheets being stored on edge and
not being flat.

On 4/11/2012 1:52 PM, Han wrote:

That is a different common sense than I know. But perhaps that is
because I worked for 34 years in a VA hospital, where things were often
done because ...

From someone who has been a patient at a VA hospital for 40 years. my
sympathies.

actually, as long as you are capable of taking control of, and being
personally involved in managing your own healthcare, the VA hospital
here is, for the most part, an excellent facility.

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

Quite the opposite for me. I have dealt with too many C level guys who
make bad decisions ... to not making decisions.

Maybe I need to get out of the NY/NJ area. Too many weenies.

On 4/11/2012 1:33 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Bill wrote:
Swingman wrote:
On 4/10/2012 5:57 PM, Bill wrote:

As it was explained to me, by someone much older than me, the VIPs
in the big corporations don't have much incentive to
"rock-the-boat" (take chances). I'm thinking of Ford and GM
especially. But the likes of Microsoft (and Cisco?) too. My point
is that it's not just the MBA "save a dime" mentality, but the
corporate (compensation) structure--which is to blame. It's
something like, "I'll just take my bonuses, retire nicely, and get
outta here (without rocking the boat)".

That's only part of it, but not the worst part.

That worst part is the mentality that the recipient of an MBA is
somehow suddenly endowed with the knowledge to the point of needing
to know nothing about a product to run the company making the
product; the mentality that "acquisition" is the all encompassing
solution to innovation; the part that fires the experience
responsible for the very innovation and quality that made the
company a worthwhile acquisition in the first to place pursue
mediocrity in worshiping the bottom line; the mentality that
insulates management from consumers; the idea that appearance, and
not substance, is the only quality necessary ...


Nicely stated.

I should have responded to Karl, but I got distracted by other things. My
only comment is that I have met and worked with many - many MBA's who do not
fit this cookie cutter mold of what's wrong with MBA's. I do agree with
Karl that this can indeed be a problem and that in fact - it has pretty much
proven itself to be an existent problem - but I disagree with the
generalization of MBA's. I have dealt with far too many C-Level executives
who were MBA's, and who exhibited too many contrary atributes to accept this
as a broad brush statement. The problem in a forum like this is that too
many people jump on bandwagons to ostrasize things that they really have
little experience with. This thread has a certain nature of "let's bash the
MBA". Maybe that comes from those who resent the knowledge of those who
have invested in that degree, while they themselves, did not.

On 4/11/2012 2:13 PM, Leon wrote:
On 4/11/2012 11:31 AM, Jack wrote:
On 4/10/2012 4:00 PM, Dave wrote:
On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 14:24:10 -0400, wrote:
You actually think Festool doesn't have a few MBAthinkers running
around
figuring out how to pry large sums of cash out of the pockets of
Texans?

In that case, they must be up here in Canukistan too, since Festool
inhabits many tool stores up here. Even a company with a top notch
reputation like Lee Valley Tools sells Festool.

Thanks to MBAthinkers no doubt.

If Festool was as disreputable as you seem to think,

You truly are an idiot. I don't think Festool is disreputable in the
least, no more than I think Ford is disreputable for making a Lincoln
Pickup truck, or Bentley for making a $500,000 car.

Yeah Jack I believe it has already been said, can't unsay it. Or are you
back peddling now... In case you for got what you said...

Didn't forget a damn thing. I never in my life said, or hinted that
Festool was junk, or disreputable, and the statement you quote is no
exception.

"Festool builds the most expensive shop vac on earth, their MBAthinkers
decided to go for the market that wants top quality and wants everyone
to know they paid unbelievable amounts to get it, so they paint them
ungodly green. "

Now because all of those above comments are totally exaggerated and not
true at all you obviously meant no good.

None of those statements are exaggerated, including "top Quality"? I'd
expect when paying 6 times the price of a regular vacuum, it would at
least be top quality.

Obviously I have no idea what was in the heads of the MBAthinkers at
Festool when they picked ungodly green as their color, so that was just
a guess. Could just as easily been one of their kids favorite colors,
but I'll stick with what I said, until proven otherwise. It just fits
in well with their price market, which would seem to be rich Texans in a
10 gallon hat driving a big caddy convertible with Texas longhorn hood
ornament and loud musical air horns, but that might me a bit of an
exaggeration.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 4/11/2012 2:41 PM, Han wrote:
"Mike wrote in news:495c6$4f85bad8
:


Well, Gass was/is a patent lawyer, and he had every right to make his
patent(s) watertight (as it/they apparently is/are). Whether he has the
right to charge as much as he wanted for a license is another question that
litigation should clarify.

For now, in the USA he has the right to charge whatever he wants. .02
cents or 2 trillion, whatever.

License fees are supposed to be reasonable.

Only if you live in one of the fine, socialists countries of the world.
I doubt our communist president would have any trouble forcing him to
charge a reasonable amount, say 5, or 20 grand, or forcing Leon to dump
his POS dangerous saw and buy a government approved SS. Well, when I
say "no trouble" I meant AFTER he is reelected the leader of the USSA.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 4/11/2012 11:51 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 09:04:28 -0500, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 4/11/2012 7:52 AM, Han wrote:
Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
:

On 4/10/2012 10:01 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
snip
Whatever the market will bear. Damn the torpedos, full retail ahead!
And that's OK, as long as CONgresscritters don't force them down our
throats. I'm just as happy with my Makitas and HF tools as you are
with your Festools, and that's the way it should be.

What in the world are you talking about, what is being forced down
your throat? I am certainly not having any thing forced down my
throat. If I don't want to buy something I simply don't buy it....
snip

Larry may be referring to the SawStop, perhaps? It isn't Congress,
directly, but the institution(s) they set up (Product Safety Commission?)
that may or may not "force" that saw on us.


Larry has a love hate relationship with SawStop.

True. I like the concept. But I'm in extreme disagreement with the
way the inventors went about the process. If they hadn't wanted so
much money, one or more of the manufacturers would have jumped at the
chance to offer the first saw equipped with the technology. And for
them to side against Ryobi, who dropped the contractual agreements
with SS, is extremely unethical in my books. It's not the sawstop,
it's the persons behind it which get my dander up.


Don't tell him about
seat belts, the odor added to natural gas, or unleaded fuel.

Au contraire, mon ami. I have happily worn seatbelts since owning my
first car, a '57 Chebby Bel Air, in 1969. Dad mandated it and I
thought it was a good idea from the getgo. I have no problem with
odorants in the gas, either, as it saves lives and costs very little.

But unleaded fuel got my goat several times. I used to have a
California smog license and had to install vapor injectors per the
CARB (CA Air Resources Board). I watched the devices kill perfectly
good engines when their owners forgot to add water to them, and I saw
the number of engines needing overhauls increase dramatically from the
lack of padding lead in the fuel. I also read about the goodness
coming from it, so that was a love/hate relationship, too. Sest lavvy,
wot? (Translation for Leon: C'est la vie, oui?, or That's Life, eh?)


True, and that's because the lead was the lubricant for the valves and
the like. But that has changed when the car companies changed gears to
accomodate the unleaded.

And again, even if you will no longer be able to buy a TS without This
technology you are not being forced to buy it. Use a hand saw if you
are so inclined to not buy the product, the decision is all .

For one man [actually a (is "toxic" redundant here?) set of 4
attorneys] to monopolize an industry via regulations is antithetical
to what our United States Gov't means to me.


I can only imagine the discussions that would have been had when the
regular guard was mandated. Surely that increased the price of every
saw, way back when, when most people did not have an extra dollar or two
to spend each month. It knocked plenty out of the market for a new saw.

A few bucks for a guard vs. a few HUNDRED for a safety mechanism.
That's not -quite- on the same level, is it?


We in this day and age are not unique from earlier decades, we still
have things we oppose but we do still have a choice to buy or not to
buy, just as they did then. My grand father himself built several
homes for his family, my mother and her two daughters, and a couple of
sisters, and sister in-laws. According to my mother, in the mid 40's,
power tools were still not in the budget to build the last that he built.

This is no different.

Bull! There was no regulation back then like the one which threatens
us now, thanks to SS.

--
Let no man imagine that he has no influence. Whoever he may be, and
wherever he may be placed, the man who thinks becomes a light and a power.
-- Henry George

Swingman wrote in
:

On 4/11/2012 1:52 PM, Han wrote:

That is a different common sense than I know. But perhaps that is
because I worked for 34 years in a VA hospital, where things were
often done because ...

From someone who has been a patient at a VA hospital for 40 years. my
sympathies.

actually, as long as you are capable of taking control of, and being
personally involved in managing your own healthcare, the VA hospital
here is, for the most part, an excellent facility.

I'm sorry you were a patient for 40 years (I hope you were at least an
outpatient, not actually in a bed in the VA for all that time). But
kidding aside, I believe the Manhattan VA is an excellent hospital, with
caring health professionals up and down the ranks. I was a bench
researcher all that time. No patient care whatsoever. I did use a bit
of their employee health care, and those experiences were good if not
excellent.

It's in general the bureaucracy that is invoked when not really always
necessary, and immediately discarded when inconvenient to the rulers.

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 12:55:13 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

Larry Jaques wrote:


True. I like the concept. But I'm in extreme disagreement with the
way the inventors went about the process. If they hadn't wanted so
much money, one or more of the manufacturers would have jumped at the
chance to offer the first saw equipped with the technology.

So, here's the thought that keeps coming back to me... (and mind you - I
have no more insight into this than you, so we're both really dealing in the
realm of speculation). I'm wondering how much the legal department got into
the mix and screwed up any possible deals - moreso than any economic issues.
Lawyers are notorious for not wanting to admit any current or past
liabilities - even beyond what would make sense to you and I. I wonder how
much Ryobi's and every other manufacturer's legal departments agreed that
there was too much legal exposure if they embraced this technology. Price
may also have been an issue, but I just keep wondering if it wasn't more
than just price.

Oh, I'm absolutely certain there was subterfuge there from the legal
dept's on both sides.


And for
them to side against Ryobi, who dropped the contractual agreements
with SS, is extremely unethical in my books. It's not the sawstop,
it's the persons behind it which get my dander up.

Unethical is a very subjective term - and I do note your use of the phrase
"in my book". I just can't get past the idea that there is more to this
entire story than has made the press. Maybe I'm wrong...

I try to remind Leon that everything said here on the Wreck is
opinion. But I'm fairly certain that money was the main culprit.


For one man [actually a (is "toxic" redundant here?) set of 4
attorneys] to monopolize an industry via regulations is antithetical
to what our United States Gov't means to me.


Could be - but only on the surface. If the entire rest of the industry is
willfully electing to do nothing, then, is that one man (or set of 4
attorneys), really all that toxic? Opportunistic? Sure. Toxic - not sure
that really applies. Remember - the entire industry had their chance to
counter and elected not to. I don't feel any sympathy for them.

Counter what?



Bull! There was no regulation back then like the one which threatens
us now, thanks to SS.

Well - welcome to the world of ignorant people who are willing to be
protected from themselves. It's your neighbors that brought this on - not
any manufacturer.

It's unethical speaking weasels who prey on the sheeple who brought
this on.

--
Let no man imagine that he has no influence. Whoever he may be, and
wherever he may be placed, the man who thinks becomes a light and a power.
-- Henry George

On 4/11/2012 3:27 PM, Leon wrote:
On 4/11/2012 1:10 PM, Jack wrote:
On 4/11/2012 8:25 AM, Leon wrote:
On 4/10/2012 10:01 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On 4/10/2012 11:45 AM, Jack wrote:

You actually think Festool doesn't have a few MBAthinkers running
around figuring out how to pry large sums of cash out of the
pockets of
Texans?

You maybe think that we that can afford a quality tool are sick and
tired of paying for crap and Festool recognizes that?

While that's entirely possible, I think the more plausible reason is
that they decided to play to the top end and spent more time building
better tools/features (and jacking up prices) than most mfgrs do. Lee
Valley, Bridge City, Lie Nielsen, Rolls Royce, Land's End, Apple,
Nordstrom, SaurStop, and a few others do that, too. I strongly doubt
-any- were built on anything resembling altruism, though.

Was altruism even in the topic?

The topic was MBAthink is likely just as responsible for cheap Ryobi as
well as expensive Festool.

I was under the impression that the
discussion had singled out Festool and its ungodly color and it being
the "most expensive vac on earth" and people paying unbelievable amounts
to have one. 3 Totally ignorant statements.

Festool green is ugly.
$500+ for a common shop vac is the most expensive I've seen.
Unbelievable is accurate for this item, of course the MBAthinkers at
Festool apparently don't think so, I'll give you that one.


Small world you live in. A moments search turned up..

other brand "most expensive on earth" vaccuums.

And this one has no mention of a HEPA filter. Ugly Orange and Butt Ugly.
And I am sure worth every penny.

http://www.woodcraft.com/product/202...extractor.aspx

Well, that too is a crazy price for a shop vacuum, but is still less
than the Festool.

And if you really want to get expensive in the "ShopVac brand,

http://www.google.com/products/catal...d=0CIwBEPMCMAM

Well, that's an industrial vac with a stainless steel tank, not
something someone not driving a Lincoln Pickup would buy for his shop.
More like something an MBAthinker might buy for his company for tax
purposes, or a gov't manager to insure spending all his budget to avoid
any cuts.

Well, I believe you think you are just as happy with your Makita as I am
with my Festool.

Yeah, what does Larry know? Poor sap probably can't afford to spend 500
on a shop Vac either, or just doesn't think it's worth it. Thanks to
MBAthink, he can buy what he wants.

He is not foolish or gullible Jack, at least I do not think so however
you might be.

Always that possibility.

But when it comes to power tools I choose my safety,
accuracy, and ease of use, and life expectancy when making purchases.

Yeah, and the rest of us mortals never think of any of that stuff, we
just buy whatever the market throws at us.

Damn, this Harbor Fright clamp sucks, think I'll buy another dozen...

Your words!

Yeah, and while being a fool, I won't be saying them again, now that I
know to think about "safety, accuracy, ease of use and life expectancy"
when buying stuff. You would think the gov't would force Harbor Fright
out of business as obviously a lot of hapless dumb asses are buying junk
from them.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 4/11/2012 3:28 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
writes:

In the 70's, old-growth redwood was common
and beautiful. Good luck finding either today.

In the early 70's I bought a redwood picnic table. I actually thought
it was Redwood. When I started assembling it, turned out it was really
white wood (pine) stained red. I actually, in my youth, called the
Better Business Bureau and he asked if it was Redwood or redwood...

Anyway, I didn't think Redwood grew anywhere but California, and cutting
those babies was not happening anymore?

If you'd read what I wrote, you would have noticed the "In the 70's" and
"good luck finding it today".

I did read what you wrote, ergo my reply.

As it happens, there is still quite a bit of redwood being cut, as it grows
relatively fast. None of it is old-growth (100+ year old trees), the few
that are left are protected.

I wondered where they were getting redwood, I mean Redwood.

Of that which _is_ being cut, there is much less heartwood, which is the
most insect and rot resistant. Most wood fencing material in california
is redwood, still.

Someone once gave me old Redwood picnic table that was actually Redwood.
I think it was one of the only Redwood things I owned. It rotted and
I salvaged what I could and made stuff for around my pool. It was nice,
but really soft wood.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 4/11/2012 3:33 PM, Leon wrote:
On 4/11/2012 11:06 AM, Jack wrote:

Until you have actually purchased and used all levels of and including quality tools
and equipment you will never ever understand how higher quality is the
better choice every time. You may now put your head back in the sand.

Out of curiosity, do you drive a Bentley and your pickup is a Lincoln,
or don't you understand what a quality vehicle is?

I retired from the automotive industry at age 40 and comfortably. I
certainly know what a quality vehicle is.

How could that be unless you purchased a Bentley or a Rolls assuming
these are high quality cars, based on price, not that I ever actually
purchased one? If you did, then I can see why a $500, or $645 shop vac
doesn't phase you.

But since you are asking me, do you?

Well, I never purchased a Bentley so I guess I have no way of knowing
what quality is. Well, I did own a Caddy once, piece of junk if you ask
me, but it was my wife's, does that count?

Do you really think you're the only one that uses/recognizes good tools
because you own a $500 vacuum cleaner? Sometimes I wonder where your
head is, and sand ain't it.

Jack you are just jealous, I have see your kind of response time and
again. I am sure you recognize what a good tool Festool and Saw Stop are
but your belligerence will not allow you to admit it. Too bad.

Can you read? I've must have said a hundred, maybe a thousand times
that Festools and Saw Stops are quality tools? You just make this ****
up or what?

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 11 Apr 2012 18:41:43 GMT, Han wrote:

"Mike Marlow" wrote in news:495c6$4f85bad8
:


Well, Gass was/is a patent lawyer, and he had every right to make his
patent(s) watertight (as it/they apparently is/are). Whether he has the
right to charge as much as he wanted for a license is another question that
litigation should clarify. License fees are supposed to be reasonable. I
was flabbergasted that the Ryobi lawsuit was so successful up through the
appellate stage. That shouldn't have happened, IMNSHO.

Han, it wasn't one patent. These expletive deleted guys patented
anything even remotely associated with the process. Depending on who's
quoting it, they took out somewhere between FIFTY and SEVENTY FIVE
patents on this -one- product.

--
Let no man imagine that he has no influence. Whoever he may be, and
wherever he may be placed, the man who thinks becomes a light and a power.
-- Henry George

"Jack" wrote in message
...
On 4/11/2012 2:41 PM, Han wrote:
"Mike wrote in news:495c6$4f85bad8
:


Well, Gass was/is a patent lawyer, and he had every right to make his
patent(s) watertight (as it/they apparently is/are). Whether he has the
right to charge as much as he wanted for a license is another question
that
litigation should clarify.

For now, in the USA he has the right to charge whatever he wants. .02
cents or 2 trillion, whatever.

In the face of a regulatory mandate, you've got to wonder at one point the
fees would kill the market, and at what point they would drive up the prices
of used table saws of all ilk to satisfy market demand. He could all but put
himself out of business if he chooses his pricing wrongly given the huge
volumes of used equipment out there, and the fact that existing inventories
could be rebuilt nearly indefinitely as witnessed by the many old Unisaws.
The market will to a large degree constrain his choices. Something to
ponder...

John

On 4/11/2012 11:55 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
....

So, here's the thought that keeps coming back to me... (and mind you - I
have no more insight into this than you, so we're both really dealing in the
realm of speculation). I'm wondering how much the legal department got into
the mix and screwed up any possible deals - moreso than any economic issues.
Lawyers are notorious for not wanting to admit any current or past
liabilities - even beyond what would make sense to you and I. I wonder how
much Ryobi's and every other manufacturer's legal departments agreed that
there was too much legal exposure if they embraced this technology. Price
may also have been an issue, but I just keep wondering if it wasn't more
than just price.
....

FWW had an article several years ago in which they interviewed Gass and
he told his side, anyway, of the negotiations. It seems like none of
the manufacturers would open up to an actual rebuttal interview but were
some generic statements quoted as best I recall.

It's been so long ago I'm not even going to try to reconstruct, but
afaik that's the only place outside of whatever transpired during the
Ryobi trials that there's any real discussion of the behind-the-scenes
events. Any/everything else I've seen has been no more than this
conversation--speculation only.

While I'm not going to try to recreate the gist, certainly liability
issues were in there as well as the terms Gass wanted were onerous from
their viewpoints and there was an issue of competitive position, etc,
etc, etc., ... that all weighed in.

Again, I'm like some many others--Gass had/has a good idea; my problem
is w/ his attempt to force its acceptance to line his own pocket.
Clearly, while some desire to produce a positive impact was there, there
real driving force was the money or he would have been satisfied to
simply manufacture and win or lose on the products' merit. Instead he
wants to have his cake and eat it, too...and how dirty his/Sawstop's
corporate hands are in pushing the Ryobi litigation I've no idea but
somebody had to be the ambulance chaser and I suspect it's a good chance
we know who sic'ed 'em on 'em...

--

On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 13:34:17 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 4/11/2012 10:51 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 09:04:28 -0500, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 4/11/2012 7:52 AM, Han wrote:
Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
:

On 4/10/2012 10:01 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
snip
Whatever the market will bear. Damn the torpedos, full retail ahead!
And that's OK, as long as CONgresscritters don't force them down our
throats. I'm just as happy with my Makitas and HF tools as you are
with your Festools, and that's the way it should be.

What in the world are you talking about, what is being forced down
your throat? I am certainly not having any thing forced down my
throat. If I don't want to buy something I simply don't buy it....
snip

Larry may be referring to the SawStop, perhaps? It isn't Congress,
directly, but the institution(s) they set up (Product Safety Commission?)
that may or may not "force" that saw on us.


Larry has a love hate relationship with SawStop.

True. I like the concept. But I'm in extreme disagreement with the
way the inventors went about the process. If they hadn't wanted so
much money, one or more of the manufacturers would have jumped at the
chance to offer the first saw equipped with the technology. And for
them to side against Ryobi, who dropped the contractual agreements
with SS, is extremely unethical in my books. It's not the sawstop,
it's the persons behind it which get my dander up.

Pot, Black, Larry

If they hadn't wanted so much money one or more of the manufacturers
would have jumped at the chance to offer the first saw equipped with the
technology. Did you just make that up? Did you assume that? Did a
manufacturer actually say that???

I got that from the text of an early story on this whole ugly episode.
They complained about the fees.


IMHO on one wanted to start "the change" Yes cost would have been more
but absolutely not prohibitively expensive... Saw Stop is not having an
issue with actually going from an idea to a start up company and selling
thousands.

Compared to the other selling hundreds of thousands annually, that's a
small number. And the price of the saws SS sells is waaay up there.


Obviously the competition guessed and gambled wrong. They turned down
the opportunity to be the first and to be in the position that Saw Stop
is in today.

g


Did the guys at SawStop proceed in a way that ****ed a few people off?
Absoluteness! It ****es me off that the other manufacturers did not
want us to see this happen by not even giving it a try. But I'll get
over it, life is too short to worry about how Delta, or Jet, or
Powermatic are going to make out should this standard be mandated. they
had their chance and watched it go by.

Did you just make that up? g See if you can prove that the mfgrs
didn't want us to see this happen.

See if you can learn the truth behind the rejections, eh? I'll bet
that you aren't so proud of your Gassy friend after that. /guess


And again, even if you will no longer be able to buy a TS without This
technology you are not being forced to buy it. Use a hand saw if you
are so inclined to not buy the product, the decision is all .

For one man [actually a (is "toxic" redundant here?) set of 4
attorneys] to monopolize an industry via regulations is antithetical
to what our United States Gov't means to me.

Apply that to your seat belts and unleaded gas.

The cost of seatbelts or gas is extremely small compared to the cost
of the car. The added safety was felt to be worth it by both the
gov't and most of the people, so it was instituted.


I can only imagine the discussions that would have been had when the
regular guard was mandated. Surely that increased the price of every
saw, way back when, when most people did not have an extra dollar or two
to spend each month. It knocked plenty out of the market for a new saw.

A few bucks for a guard vs. a few HUNDRED for a safety mechanism.
That's not -quite- on the same level, is it?

Actually yes it is on the same level. When the current regular guard
was mandated most using these saws did not have a dollar or two to
spare. It is all relative. Gas and vehicles are about 20 times more
expensive than 40 years ago, those guards go back farther. Now lets
take a $300 Saw Stop option and divide that by 20 and I get $15, all
things being relative..

I paid $119 for my refurb Ryobi saw. A $300 option would have put it
up to about $600 retail. Lots of people buy the cheap 10" saws, Leon.
Not everyone can afford $4k for a SS or Unisaw. Check your reference
levels.


We in this day and age are not unique from earlier decades, we still
have things we oppose but we do still have a choice to buy or not to
buy, just as they did then. My grand father himself built several
homes for his family, my mother and her two daughters, and a couple of
sisters, and sister in-laws. According to my mother, in the mid 40's,
power tools were still not in the budget to build the last that he built.

This is no different.

Bull! There was no regulation back then like the one which threatens
us now, thanks to SS.

None that "you" know of, do some research.

Do you know of specific regs back then? If so, let me know. There
weren't many. The nanny state came up way later. We grew up in it.


Does Ralph Nader ring a bell?

I guarantee he wasn't ruining Corvairs or contractor lives in the
'40s.

--
Let no man imagine that he has no influence. Whoever he may be, and
wherever he may be placed, the man who thinks becomes a light and a power.
-- Henry George

"Han" wrote

Well, Gass was/is a patent lawyer
snip
License fees are supposed to be reasonable.

An oxymoron. Nothing about lawyers are reasonable.

"John Grossbohlin" wrote

In the face of a regulatory mandate, you've got to wonder at one point the
fees would kill the market, and at what point they would drive up the
prices of used table saws of all ilk to satisfy market demand. He could
all but put himself out of business if he chooses his pricing wrongly
given the huge volumes of used equipment out there, and the fact that
existing inventories could be rebuilt nearly indefinitely as witnessed by
the many old Unisaws. The market will to a large degree constrain his
choices. Something to ponder...

Again, he is a lawyer!

Who's to say that isn't his primary objective? Lots of lawyers take great
pride in screwing up people's lives.

"dpb" wrote in message ...
On 4/11/2012 11:55 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
...

So, here's the thought that keeps coming back to me... (and mind you - I
have no more insight into this than you, so we're both really dealing in
the
realm of speculation). I'm wondering how much the legal department got
into
the mix and screwed up any possible deals - moreso than any economic
issues.
Lawyers are notorious for not wanting to admit any current or past
liabilities - even beyond what would make sense to you and I. I wonder
how
much Ryobi's and every other manufacturer's legal departments agreed that
there was too much legal exposure if they embraced this technology.
Price
may also have been an issue, but I just keep wondering if it wasn't more
than just price.
...

FWW had an article several years ago in which they interviewed Gass and he
told his side, anyway, of the negotiations. It seems like none of the
manufacturers would open up to an actual rebuttal interview but were some
generic statements quoted as best I recall.

It's been so long ago I'm not even going to try to reconstruct, but afaik
that's the only place outside of whatever transpired during the Ryobi
trials that there's any real discussion of the behind-the-scenes events.
Any/everything else I've seen has been no more than this
conversation--speculation only.

While I'm not going to try to recreate the gist, certainly liability
issues were in there as well as the terms Gass wanted were onerous from
their viewpoints and there was an issue of competitive position, etc, etc,
etc., ... that all weighed in.

Again, I'm like some many others--Gass had/has a good idea; my problem is
w/ his attempt to force its acceptance to line his own pocket. Clearly,
while some desire to produce a positive impact was there, there real
driving force was the money or he would have been satisfied to simply
manufacture and win or lose on the products' merit. Instead he wants to
have his cake and eat it, too...and how dirty his/Sawstop's corporate
hands are in pushing the Ryobi litigation I've no idea but somebody had to
be the ambulance chaser and I suspect it's a good chance we know who
sic'ed 'em on 'em...


Over dinner a while back one of the expert consultants who worked on the
defense side of the Ryobi case gave some insight. He spoke in ways that made
me think that none of the manufacturers thought the case stood a chance of
succeeding given all the problems with the contractor's training, the
worker's actions, removal of the fence, etc. As such the tactics the defense
used focused on those issues to a large degree and much less on the
realities of the Saw Stop technology. I'm inclined to chalk this up to a
group think problem... they underestimated their opponent and over estimated
the wisdom of the jury... I'm not sure I would have done it different... it
all sounded very reasonable to those of us at the table (skilled and
professional woodworkers/teachers/writers/editors).

On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 10:24:10 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 4/11/2012 9:43 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 07:41:39 -0500, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 4/10/2012 10:03 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 21:10:55 -0500, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 4/10/2012 5:54 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
"Larry W" wrote:

Hel, you could but a gallon of gas for 20 cents in my lifetime, and
I'm
under 60 (barely)
------------------------------------
Gas for just less than $0.20/gal was quite common in metro Detroit in
the late '50s.

Known as "gas wars".



19.9 was "quite common" in the early 70's in Corpus Christi. I remember
filling up my car for $2.

Ditto my 21.3 cents/gal in Phoenix in '72, my first time away from
home. I'd fill up the old '68 Ford Ranch Wagon for under $3. I paid
$80 the other day for a Tundra fillup.gack

So we are talking gas going up in price to about 20 times what it used
to be in 1970`1972.
A new and nicely equipped pick up in 1971 stickered for about $2k and
now about $40k

I found an exceedingly good value in my $26k Toyota Tundra.

And that is about what I paid but I was talking sticker price then and
now. My middle of the road model snickered for $34k and I am pretty
sure yours snickered for considerably more also.

No, $26,071 out the door new in Dec 2007. Standard cab, 6.5' standard
bed, Northwest towing package (radiator, 2" receiver hitch, larger
battery/alt/wiring), SR5 sport package, 4.7L small V-8, A/C, power
windows/doors, lovely TAN interior (I abhor gray!)

OK, checking on a brand new one today: I can't get a V-6 without
going to a freakin' double cab, so 4-cyl w/5sp auto it is. $26,141.
The local Ford dealer wanted about $40k for the same vehicle when I
was doing my research in '07.

--
Let no man imagine that he has no influence. Whoever he may be, and
wherever he may be placed, the man who thinks becomes a light and a power.
-- Henry George

Han wrote:
"Mike Marlow" wrote in
news:495c6$4f85bad8 :


Well, Gass was/is a patent lawyer, and he had every right to make his
patent(s) watertight (as it/they apparently is/are). Whether he has
the right to charge as much as he wanted for a license is another
question that litigation should clarify. License fees are supposed
to be reasonable.

There is no legislation in the US Han that states that license fees are
supposed to be reasonable. There's not even a definition for what
reasonable means. Litigation won't determine that point.

I was flabbergasted that the Ryobi lawsuit was so
successful up through the appellate stage. That shouldn't have
happened, IMNSHO.

I agree.

--

-Mike-

In article
"John Grossbohlin" writes:

"Jack" wrote in message
...
On 4/11/2012 2:41 PM, Han wrote:
"Mike wrote in news:495c6$4f85bad8
:


Well, Gass was/is a patent lawyer, and he had every right to make his
patent(s) watertight (as it/they apparently is/are). Whether he has the
right to charge as much as he wanted for a license is another question
that
litigation should clarify.

For now, in the USA he has the right to charge whatever he wants. .02
cents or 2 trillion, whatever.

In the face of a regulatory mandate, you've got to wonder at one point the
fees would kill the market,

There is no regulatory mandate.

If the regulatory mandate is added, then Reasonable and Nondiscriminatory
(RAND) license rates are required.


--
Drew Lawson | It's not enough to be alive
| when your future's been deferred

"Drew Lawson" wrote in message
...
In article
"John Grossbohlin" writes:

"Jack" wrote in message
...
On 4/11/2012 2:41 PM, Han wrote:
"Mike wrote in
news:495c6$4f85bad8
:


Well, Gass was/is a patent lawyer, and he had every right to make his
patent(s) watertight (as it/they apparently is/are). Whether he has
the
right to charge as much as he wanted for a license is another question
that
litigation should clarify.

For now, in the USA he has the right to charge whatever he wants. .02
cents or 2 trillion, whatever.

In the face of a regulatory mandate, you've got to wonder at one point the
fees would kill the market,

There is no regulatory mandate.

It was a hypothetical... the wording seems pretty clear in that regard.

If the regulatory mandate is added, then Reasonable and Nondiscriminatory
(RAND) license rates are required.

Not likely that would apply to state level regulation.... which is where
action may likely take place before Federal. Kind of like the mess the auto
manufacturers face in regards to emissions standards at the state level.

I should have included the possibilty that firms would simply withdraw from
various markets the way gun manufacturers have choosen to at times... If the
ROI isn't worth the effort they should be smart enough to walk away.

On 4/11/2012 4:18 PM, Lee Michaels wrote:


"Han" wrote

Well, Gass was/is a patent lawyer
snip
License fees are supposed to be reasonable.

An oxymoron. Nothing about lawyers are reasonable.

ALL lawyers have a singular business model ... to game the legal system.

--
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Last update: 4/15/2010
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On 4/11/2012 3:07 PM, Han wrote:

I'm sorry you were a patient for 40 years (I hope you were at least an
outpatient, not actually in a bed in the VA for all that time).

LOL I think the terminology is "numbers", not patients. The loudspeaker
in each clinic is continually bellowing out: "Now serving Numbers 756,
757, 758, ...), which means you get to proceed to another window, and
take another number.

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop