"tiredofspam" nospam.nospam.com wrote in message
...
Have you put a link belt on it.

I didn't need a link belt. My saw vibrated all over the place too.
Then I burnt the belt while sawing some damn hard maple.
Problem solved. The belt was so soft and supple after stinking up the
place, that it no longer vibrated. The problem was the freakin belt.

I find that if I use my tools on a near daily basis that they all run
smoother. It's when they sit for weeks or months, and the belts take a set,
that vibration is really noticeable. The cabinet saw, with it's three belts,
is not immune to this phenomenon.

John

On 4/14/2012 1:19 PM, Dave wrote:
On Sat, 14 Apr 2012 12:46:10 -0400, wrote:
Why don't you get a contractors saw, and build a bench to whatever
height you want? I think even SS sells a contractors saw, don't they?

That is what I use know. I cut about three inches off each leg. I
added an Excalibur saw guide to it and bought a decent miter guide to
it. But in the end, it just isn't a cabinet saw.

I'm after a most elusive concept ~ a cabinet saw that will pass the
nickel test.

My contractors saw passes the nickle test. You have mass, you own the
nickel test. Not sure if my Unisaw would pass it or not. But who
really cares about a meaningless test.

I prefer my contractors saw to a cabinet saw for a bunch of reasons, all
related to building my own cabinet to my specifications, none related to
the nickle test.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 4/14/2012 7:44 PM, Dave wrote:
On Sat, 14 Apr 2012 16:49:27 -0500, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet
The SawStop demo's I have seen involved the hot dog trick but also
included the other features of the saw so in my case I did not see
selling fear as the only or key selling point.

The fear of table saws, or the perception of that fear is what keeps
many people from buying a table saw. That's one reason why the SawStop
will sell and sell well, despite any of this mandate debate.

The friend who I sold my contractors saw to, hates using it. He's
afraid of it. He is fine with something like a circular saw, but the
table saw scares him. I'm pretty sure he bought it from me because he
liked the idea of owning a table saw, but as to using it? That's
something else.

The SawStop will bring out a whole new generation of woodworkers,
people who would normally be sitting by the sidelines, wishing things
were different. I'd bet on it.

I'd bet you would lose. I'd bet most people don't own a table saw
because they can't tie their own shoes and/or are not interested in WW,
or have no place to do WW and hate all the dust anyway. Likely few on
earth don't own a table saw because they're scared.

Most of the scared probably whacked a fing-ee or two because they
weren't scared enough, or are old farts that realize as they age, they
are getting more dangerous to themselves. The old fart market should be
interested most in SS tech.

If you ever used a step ladder, a chainsaw, a body grinder, or even a
hatchet/Ax you probably already used tools as, or more dangerous than a
table saw.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 10:32:32 -0400, tiredofspam nospam.nospam.com
Have you put a link belt on it.

Yes. There's been a link belt on it for a number of years. It's a
forty year old Rockwell Beaver contractor's saw. At a guess, I'd have
to say the rails sticking out off one edge of the saw have a
measurable effect on the stability of the saw, making it prone to
vibrating.

On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 11:40:58 -0400, Jack wrote:
I prefer my contractors saw to a cabinet saw for a bunch of reasons, all
related to building my own cabinet to my specifications, none related to
the nickle test.

Well, it might be directly related to where I've used it during the
last thirtyfive years. For a number of those years it was on the front
porch of my mother's house, on a sloped floor with a 8°-10° slant.
Since then, it's been dragged out for use on a block patio. So from
the get go, the conditions haven't be ideal.

But even before then on a poured concrete floor, it vibrated. Doesn't
matter dammit. I want a cabinet saw or I'll have a temper tantrum.

On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 12:08:20 -0400, Jack wrote:
Most of the scared probably whacked a fing-ee or two because they
weren't scared enough, or are old farts that realize as they age, they
are getting more dangerous to themselves. The old fart market should be
interested most in SS tech.

Guss we'll have to wait and see. Eventually, some survey will be
released on age and or something else brackets.

"Dave" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 12:08:20 -0400, Jack wrote:
Most of the scared probably whacked a fing-ee or two because they
weren't scared enough, or are old farts that realize as they age, they
are getting more dangerous to themselves. The old fart market should be
interested most in SS tech.

Guss we'll have to wait and see. Eventually, some survey will be
released on age and or something else brackets.

I'd expect a strong correlation with the depth of the purchaser's pockets
too... whether it's individuals' discretionary income pockets or
organizations' budgetary pockets.

I see that Saw Stop has a job site cart version of their Contractor's saw
now... and an industrial version of their cabinet saw (e..g, 3 phase 3, 5
and 7.5 HP).

It looks like some of the speculation here about Saw Stop's market is
already playing out.

John

On 4/14/2012 8:02 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Dave wrote:
On Sat, 14 Apr 2012 16:49:27 -0500, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet
The SawStop demo's I have seen involved the hot dog trick but also
included the other features of the saw so in my case I did not see
selling fear as the only or key selling point.

The fear of table saws, or the perception of that fear is what keeps
many people from buying a table saw. That's one reason why the SawStop
will sell and sell well, despite any of this mandate debate.

Perhaps so, though my experiences with other people has been different.

Yeah, me too.

I've never encountered anyone who was afraid of a table saw - or at least,
it never came out in any conversations. To the contrary, I have met a good
number of people who I feared for, when using a table saw. Mostly those who
just don't pay attention to anything, and you just know that at some point,
something bad is going to happen. Maybe not real bad - or maybe real bad...
but something that they wish had not happened.

Yeah, someone posted a video of a guy using a router table with his
fing-ees needlessly close to the cutter, and using some not very safe
techniques. I felt the fear you speak of for him when watching him, but
then he appeared to be more than a novice, and had all his fing-ees, so
all he gets from me is one raised eyebrow.

I remember my BIL who was a lifetime carpenter cutting shim wedges out
of a 6 inch 2x4 held in his hand, with a giant circular saw. I said
Frank, are you nuts, your gunna whack a fing-ee? He laughed and said,
yeah, been nuts for the past 50 years, when do you think this will
happen? Well he's retired now with two fake knees, but has all his
fing-ees.

He still gets one raised eyebrow from me, but hard to argue with a
lifetime of success.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 4/14/2012 8:13 PM, Bill wrote:
Dave wrote:

The SawStop will bring out a whole new generation of woodworkers,
people who would normally be sitting by the sidelines, wishing things
were different. I'd bet on it.

Someone who is curious about ww, but afraid of TSs, could use hand
tools. The idea that the SS/technology will create "a whole new
generation of woodworkers" seems absurd unless you want 10 year olds
using table saws.

I've never even nicked myself using a power tool, but have whacked
myself many times using hand tools. Hand tools are simply dangerous and
Big Brother should do something about it...

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 4/14/2012 8:45 PM, Dave wrote:
On Sat, 14 Apr 2012 20:13:23 -0400, wrote:
Find a new source of cheaper material to build with and you might create
a new level of interest.

I can't agree with that. There's always been cheaper material (and
tools) around to build with. That's been part of the problem. People
have been getting too used to junk.

Yeah, thats the problem alright.

That in part is why brands like Festool have been taking off. First
you have to get past the sticker shock of the brand. Once that happens
and you start to experience some of the benefits, then you start to
realize that quality built products can offer up a better experience.

I've never met a single person that overtly thought inferior products
offered up a better experience than a quality product. I have met a ton
of people that think a Toyota Pick up is good enough, and they don't
need to spend the bucks on a Lincoln Pickup. Same goes with vacuum
cleaners and Festool.

And, a much better experience in some cases.

....and not so much in others. I'm perfectly happy with my 35 year old
shop vac, and am willing to wear ear muffs rather than spend a $100 or
so on a new one that is a bit quieter, and certainly won't spend $645 on
a Festool that does pretty much the same thing, regardless of how pretty
and quiet it might be...

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 4/14/2012 8:45 PM, Dave wrote:
On Sat, 14 Apr 2012 20:13:23 -0400, wrote:
Find a new source of cheaper material to build with and you might create
a new level of interest.

I can't agree with that. There's always been cheaper material (and
tools) around to build with. That's been part of the problem. People
have been getting too used to junk.

Yeah, thats the problem alright.

That in part is why brands like Festool have been taking off. First
you have to get past the sticker shock of the brand. Once that happens
and you start to experience some of the benefits, then you start to
realize that quality built products can offer up a better experience.

I've never met a single person that overtly thought inferior products
offered up a better experience than a quality product. I have met a ton
of people that think a Toyota Pick up is good enough, and they don't
need to spend the bucks on a Lincoln Pickup. Same goes with vacuum
cleaners and Festool.

And, a much better experience in some cases.

....and not so much in others. I'm perfectly happy with my 35 year old
shop vac, and am willing to wear ear muffs rather than spend a $100 or
so on a new one that is a bit quieter, and certainly won't spend $645 on
a Festool that does pretty much the same thing, regardless of how pretty
and quiet it might be...

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 4/14/2012 10:43 PM, Bill wrote:

I have a much better idea of what jointers have to offer now, and I've
seen I lot of imperfect lumber since I started. I'm concerned glueing
together 16 pieces of imperfect lumber is likely to create
unconscionable problems! : ) Glueing together 16 pieces of
freshly-jointed lumber seems more likely to produce an near-level
surface and well-glued joints that won't come apart. Dig?

When I first started seriously into woodworking, the very first thing I
made was a workbench. Made some mistakes, and the top I made from 2x4
construction lumber I cut in half because I wanted it to look like
Butcher block. I drilled holes through each piece and glued and bolted
them together with all thread, not knowing that glue would have
sufficed. I finished the top with a large belt sander, as it was uneven
as all get out. When done, the thing waved at me like a drunk flagging
down a taxi. I figured I'd someday replace the top when I figured out
how to make one perfectly flat. That was a very, very long time ago and
I still have the bench with all it's flaws, never replaced the top, and
now the top has many, many years of use showing, and you would have to
kill me to get it off of me. I love the damn thing.

I might be able to get it flatter today, but it would not be easy. Had I
waited around until I had all the knowledge and skills needed to build
the thing perfect, I'd still be thinking about it, sans any skills I may
have acquired.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 4/15/2012 12:20 PM, Jack wrote:
On 4/14/2012 8:45 PM, Dave wrote:
On Sat, 14 Apr 2012 20:13:23 -0400, wrote:
Find a new source of cheaper material to build with and you might create
a new level of interest.

I can't agree with that. There's always been cheaper material (and
tools) around to build with. That's been part of the problem. People
have been getting too used to junk.

Yeah, thats the problem alright.

That in part is why brands like Festool have been taking off. First
you have to get past the sticker shock of the brand. Once that happens
and you start to experience some of the benefits, then you start to
realize that quality built products can offer up a better experience.

I've never met a single person that overtly thought inferior products
offered up a better experience than a quality product. I have met a ton
of people that think a Toyota Pick up is good enough, and they don't
need to spend the bucks on a Lincoln Pickup. Same goes with vacuum
cleaners and Festool.

Toyota, Lincoln. Picking a Lincoln over a Toyota would be a step down
in quality. If you value bling over value get the Lincoln.


And, a much better experience in some cases.

...and not so much in others. I'm perfectly happy with my 35 year old
shop vac, and am willing to wear ear muffs rather than spend a $100 or
so on a new one that is a bit quieter, and certainly won't spend $645 on
a Festool that does pretty much the same thing, regardless of how pretty
and quiet it might be...


BUT I do not know a lot of people that would be perfectly fine with ear
muffs for hours on end in 90+ degree weather. My Festool shop vac
pretty much runs 2~4 hours at a time.

Simply put, if this is too much money for you to spend and or you are a
hobbyist you really should not be looking at Festool.
If you were earning a living with your tools it is a no brainer.

On 4/15/2012 12:23 PM, Dave wrote:
On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 12:08:20 -0400, wrote:
Most of the scared probably whacked a fing-ee or two because they
weren't scared enough, or are old farts that realize as they age, they
are getting more dangerous to themselves. The old fart market should be
interested most in SS tech.

Guss we'll have to wait and see. Eventually, some survey will be
released on age and or something else brackets.

If you need a survey to determine the dangerous affects age has on a guy
running powerful saws and such, you need to get out more often, but even
if you don't, you will learn first hand sooner or later.

You must be a gov't worker, no?

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 4/15/2012 2:00 PM, Leon wrote:
On 4/15/2012 12:20 PM, Jack wrote:
On 4/14/2012 8:45 PM, Dave wrote:
On Sat, 14 Apr 2012 20:13:23 -0400, wrote:
Find a new source of cheaper material to build with and you might
create
a new level of interest.

I can't agree with that. There's always been cheaper material (and
tools) around to build with. That's been part of the problem. People
have been getting too used to junk.

Yeah, thats the problem alright.

That in part is why brands like Festool have been taking off. First
you have to get past the sticker shock of the brand. Once that happens
and you start to experience some of the benefits, then you start to
realize that quality built products can offer up a better experience.

I've never met a single person that overtly thought inferior products
offered up a better experience than a quality product. I have met a ton
of people that think a Toyota Pick up is good enough, and they don't
need to spend the bucks on a Lincoln Pickup. Same goes with vacuum
cleaners and Festool.

Toyota, Lincoln. Picking a Lincoln over a Toyota would be a step down in
quality. If you value bling over value get the Lincoln.

Let me guess, you own a Toyota?

OK, that was a poor example, a Lincoln PU does not cost 5-7 times as
much as a Toyota. Let me restate, I know a bunch of people that think a
Mercedes is good enough, and they don't really need a Bentley.

And, a much better experience in some cases.

...and not so much in others. I'm perfectly happy with my 35 year old
shop vac, and am willing to wear ear muffs rather than spend a $100 or
so on a new one that is a bit quieter, and certainly won't spend $645 on
a Festool that does pretty much the same thing, regardless of how pretty
and quiet it might be...

BUT I do not know a lot of people that would be perfectly fine with ear
muffs for hours on end in 90+ degree weather. My Festool shop vac pretty
much runs 2~4 hours at a time.

True there, I've never run my shop vac for 4 hours at a time, even when
vacuuming the water out of my basement. Ergo, I don't need an
industrial vac, or a home vac priced at industrial rates.

Simply put, if this is too much money for you to spend and or you are a
hobbyist you really should not be looking at Festool.

I'm not, particularly in shop vacs.

If you were earning a living with your tools it is a no brainer.

Yet, Millions, and millions of (brainless?) workers earn their living
with non-Festool tools, and manage to get by just fine.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 13:00:28 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 4/15/2012 12:20 PM, Jack wrote:
On 4/14/2012 8:45 PM, Dave wrote:
On Sat, 14 Apr 2012 20:13:23 -0400, wrote:
Find a new source of cheaper material to build with and you might create
a new level of interest.

I can't agree with that. There's always been cheaper material (and
tools) around to build with. That's been part of the problem. People
have been getting too used to junk.

Yeah, thats the problem alright.

That in part is why brands like Festool have been taking off. First
you have to get past the sticker shock of the brand. Once that happens
and you start to experience some of the benefits, then you start to
realize that quality built products can offer up a better experience.

I've never met a single person that overtly thought inferior products
offered up a better experience than a quality product. I have met a ton
of people that think a Toyota Pick up is good enough, and they don't
need to spend the bucks on a Lincoln Pickup. Same goes with vacuum
cleaners and Festool.

Toyota, Lincoln. Picking a Lincoln over a Toyota would be a step down
in quality. If you value bling over value get the Lincoln.

Having owned both (Mom's Continental/Tundra), I agree.


And, a much better experience in some cases.

...and not so much in others. I'm perfectly happy with my 35 year old
shop vac, and am willing to wear ear muffs rather than spend a $100 or
so on a new one that is a bit quieter, and certainly won't spend $645 on
a Festool that does pretty much the same thing, regardless of how pretty
and quiet it might be...


BUT I do not know a lot of people that would be perfectly fine with ear
muffs for hours on end in 90+ degree weather. My Festool shop vac
pretty much runs 2~4 hours at a time.

Simply put, if this is too much money for you to spend and or you are a
hobbyist you really should not be looking at Festool.
If you were earning a living with your tools it is a no brainer.

What I'm trying to figure out is why you're not using your dust
collector. Ditto a $100 portable model for onsite use. The sound
level is about the same: quiet.

I loved playing with that CT 26, but the price was out of my reach.

--
A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner, so if
one's life is cold and bare he can blame none but himself.
-- Louis L'Amour

On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 13:20:13 -0400, Jack wrote:
...and not so much in others. I'm perfectly happy with my 35 year old
shop vac, and am willing to wear ear muffs rather than spend a $100 or
so on a new one that is a bit quieter, and certainly won't spend $645 on
a Festool that does pretty much the same thing, regardless of how pretty
and quiet it might be...

And what if that Festool vacuum is part and parcel of getting and
keeping customers. LESS dust in a customer's house. Much LESS noise in
that same customer's house. May customers are living in the same house
a contractor my be working in.

Got a smart reply to that scenario Jack?

On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 14:47:42 -0400, Jack wrote:
Yet, Millions, and millions of (brainless?) workers earn their living
with non-Festool tools, and manage to get by just fine.

Then what the hell do you own a shop vac for Jack? Millions and
millions of people are fine using a broom.

You can't make an argument for something and than side with the
alternative viewpoint. Your arguments are as skittish as a cat with a
can tied to its tail.

Dave wrote:
On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 13:20:13 -0400, wrote:
...and not so much in others. I'm perfectly happy with my 35 year old
shop vac, and am willing to wear ear muffs rather than spend a $100 or
so on a new one that is a bit quieter, and certainly won't spend $645 on
a Festool that does pretty much the same thing, regardless of how pretty
and quiet it might be...

And what if that Festool vacuum is part and parcel of getting and
keeping customers. LESS dust in a customer's house. Much LESS noise in
that same customer's house. May customers are living in the same house
a contractor my be working in.

Got a smart reply to that scenario Jack?

Geeze, "Hand 'em out a coupla-pair a ear-plugs!" : )

Dave writes:
On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 13:20:13 -0400, Jack wrote:
...and not so much in others. I'm perfectly happy with my 35 year old
shop vac, and am willing to wear ear muffs rather than spend a $100 or
so on a new one that is a bit quieter, and certainly won't spend $645 on
a Festool that does pretty much the same thing, regardless of how pretty
and quiet it might be...

And what if that Festool vacuum is part and parcel of getting and
keeping customers. LESS dust in a customer's house. Much LESS noise in
that same customer's house. May customers are living in the same house
a contractor my be working in.

Got a smart reply to that scenario Jack?

Who said anything about professional contractors? The discussion has been
on hobby and amateur woodworkers.

That said, of all my pro contractor friends, none of them use festool gear,
but rather use middle of the road quality gear (skilsaws, dewalt gear,
PC).

scott

On 4/15/2012 1:47 PM, Jack wrote:
On 4/15/2012 2:00 PM, Leon wrote:
On 4/15/2012 12:20 PM, Jack wrote:
On 4/14/2012 8:45 PM, Dave wrote:
On Sat, 14 Apr 2012 20:13:23 -0400, wrote:
Find a new source of cheaper material to build with and you might
create
a new level of interest.

I can't agree with that. There's always been cheaper material (and
tools) around to build with. That's been part of the problem. People
have been getting too used to junk.

Yeah, thats the problem alright.

That in part is why brands like Festool have been taking off. First
you have to get past the sticker shock of the brand. Once that happens
and you start to experience some of the benefits, then you start to
realize that quality built products can offer up a better experience.

I've never met a single person that overtly thought inferior products
offered up a better experience than a quality product. I have met a ton
of people that think a Toyota Pick up is good enough, and they don't
need to spend the bucks on a Lincoln Pickup. Same goes with vacuum
cleaners and Festool.

Toyota, Lincoln. Picking a Lincoln over a Toyota would be a step down in
quality. If you value bling over value get the Lincoln.

Let me guess, you own a Toyota?

Absolutely and after having owned 3 other brand trucks in the past 30
years I am extremely happy with my decision to go Toyota this time. And
I can say that with out bad mouthing or making fun of those that don't
agree with my choice.

OK, that was a poor example, a Lincoln PU does not cost 5-7 times as
much as a Toyota. Let me restate, I know a bunch of people that think a
Mercedes is good enough, and they don't really need a Bentley.

And as I pointed out previousely, ShopVac too makes a vac that is more
expensive than the Festool and a number of them are only about 1/2 the
price as a Festool.

All you do Jack is make execrated untrue comments about the Festool
brand and any other brand you have a hard on against. Damn, if you have
no experience with the product I would advise getting some as your
comments clearly demonstrate how uneducated you really are about the
product. But it clearly is more tool than you will probably ever need.
I you like less expensive products and they do it for you then good for
you but your continuing show of ignorance is quickly getting old.



And, a much better experience in some cases.

...and not so much in others. I'm perfectly happy with my 35 year old
shop vac, and am willing to wear ear muffs rather than spend a $100 or
so on a new one that is a bit quieter, and certainly won't spend $645 on
a Festool that does pretty much the same thing, regardless of how pretty
and quiet it might be...

BUT I do not know a lot of people that would be perfectly fine with ear
muffs for hours on end in 90+ degree weather. My Festool shop vac pretty
much runs 2~4 hours at a time.

True there, I've never run my shop vac for 4 hours at a time, even when
vacuuming the water out of my basement. Ergo, I don't need an industrial
vac, or a home vac priced at industrial rates.

And because you deem Festool the most expensive vac on earth, and is a
god awful color of green, no one else can benefit from a more expensive
brand tool that is designed to go the distance day in and day out?


Simply put, if this is too much money for you to spend and or you are a
hobbyist you really should not be looking at Festool.

I'm not, particularly in shop vacs.

If you were earning a living with your tools it is a no brainer.

Yet, Millions, and millions of (brainless?) workers earn their living
with non Festool tools, and manage to get by just fine.


Your words and completely missed the point again. I was directing the
comment directly towards you, not those that make a living using their
tools. Just because you don't see the need does not mean the need does
not exist.

On 4/15/2012 2:07 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 13:00:28 -0500, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 4/15/2012 12:20 PM, Jack wrote:
On 4/14/2012 8:45 PM, Dave wrote:
On Sat, 14 Apr 2012 20:13:23 -0400, wrote:
Find a new source of cheaper material to build with and you might create
a new level of interest.

I can't agree with that. There's always been cheaper material (and
tools) around to build with. That's been part of the problem. People
have been getting too used to junk.

Yeah, thats the problem alright.

That in part is why brands like Festool have been taking off. First
you have to get past the sticker shock of the brand. Once that happens
and you start to experience some of the benefits, then you start to
realize that quality built products can offer up a better experience.

I've never met a single person that overtly thought inferior products
offered up a better experience than a quality product. I have met a ton
of people that think a Toyota Pick up is good enough, and they don't
need to spend the bucks on a Lincoln Pickup. Same goes with vacuum
cleaners and Festool.

Toyota, Lincoln. Picking a Lincoln over a Toyota would be a step down
in quality. If you value bling over value get the Lincoln.

Having owned both (Mom's Continental/Tundra), I agree.

Wow! we agree! LOL


And, a much better experience in some cases.

...and not so much in others. I'm perfectly happy with my 35 year old
shop vac, and am willing to wear ear muffs rather than spend a $100 or
so on a new one that is a bit quieter, and certainly won't spend $645 on
a Festool that does pretty much the same thing, regardless of how pretty
and quiet it might be...


BUT I do not know a lot of people that would be perfectly fine with ear
muffs for hours on end in 90+ degree weather. My Festool shop vac
pretty much runs 2~4 hours at a time.

Simply put, if this is too much money for you to spend and or you are a
hobbyist you really should not be looking at Festool.
If you were earning a living with your tools it is a no brainer.

What I'm trying to figure out is why you're not using your dust
collector. Ditto a $100 portable model for onsite use. The sound
level is about the same: quiet.

My DC does not filter as well as the twin HEPA filters in my Festool
Vac. I use the Festool for the Track saw, both Festool sanders, and the
Domino, oh and the Kreg pocket hole jig. The sanders produce very fine
dust which I do not see.

The Festool is much "quieter" than any $100 unit and my DC for that
matter. When used with any of my power tools I cannot hear the Festool
vac running. The Festool is my power supply for my power tools and on a
job site it is some times difficult to locate an extra socket for the
vac or tool. UH Swingman? LOL

And no the sound level is no where close to the same. The Festool vac
is one of the quietest power tools that I own.

Working in a clients home and not bringing excess noise and dust is a
big plus. About 4 years ago I refaced a customer kitchen cabinet with
1/8" think veneer that I cut. After the glue dried over night the
customer had taped off all the cabinet openings from the inside to keep
dust out, the face frames fronts and inside edges were exposed.
I went through 3 grits of paper and there was absolutely little to no
dust on the face frame horizontal surfaces. He napped while I did the
sanding. He was shocked that He did not hear the vac and was amazed
that there was no film of dust covering every thing.

That is why I would buy this caliber vac again. I originally simply did
not want to hear the noise when using the Domino. I got a lot of bonus
features I had not dreamed of when I originally bought.















I loved playing with that CT 26, but the price was out of my reach.

--
A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner, so if
one's life is cold and bare he can blame none but himself.
-- Louis L'Amour

On 04/15/2012 04:34 PM, Leon wrote:
On 4/15/2012 1:47 PM, Jack wrote:
On 4/15/2012 2:00 PM, Leon wrote:
On 4/15/2012 12:20 PM, Jack wrote:

Toyota, Lincoln. Picking a Lincoln over a Toyota would be a step down in
quality. If you value bling over value get the Lincoln.

Let me guess, you own a Toyota?

Absolutely and after having owned 3 other brand trucks in the past 30
years I am extremely happy with my decision to go Toyota this time. And
I can say that with out bad mouthing or making fun of those that don't
agree with my choice.


I'm waiting for the Toyota diesel PU. Dragging around a 5th wheel with
a gasoline engine is not a lot of fun, so my 2004 duramax will have to
do until then.

Bill wrote:

When I first started coming to the Wreck, a little before I "got
interested" in shop renovation, Lew helped me formulate the idea of
making a 6-7 foot workbench top by glueing together, face-to-face, a
bunch of 2-by dimensional lumber (SYP, 2by10s, ripped in half).

Being naive, I almost believed my glue-ups would be almost as nice as my
pictures. Now, being more familiar with jointers, I fear
"near-disaster", if I don't joint at one edge (which will end up on the
top) and the faces too. I have been encouraged to run glue-ups of 4
boards, say, through my planer, and I can see how that could help, but I
can see how things could work out a whole lot better if all of the
boards went through a jointer first, before and after glueing--not that
I have one.

Bill


Just curious, who would recommend me to use (or not use) a jointer for
this project (thinking the process and results would be better)?

With all due respect, I'll put Mike M. and Beltsander-Jack down for
"Ney". Any "Ayes"?

Bill

Bill wrote:

When I first started coming to the Wreck, a little before I "got
interested" in shop renovation, Lew helped me formulate the idea of
making a 6-7 foot workbench top by glueing together, face-to-face,
a
bunch of 2-by dimensional lumber (SYP, 2by10s, ripped in half).

Being naive, I almost believed my glue-ups would be almost as nice
as my
pictures. Now, being more familiar with jointers, I fear
"near-disaster", if I don't joint at one edge (which will end up on
the
top) and the faces too. I have been encouraged to run glue-ups of 4
boards, say, through my planer, and I can see how that could help,
but I
can see how things could work out a whole lot better if all of the
boards went through a jointer first, before and after glueing--not
that
I have one.

Bill


Just curious, who would recommend me to use (or not use) a jointer
for this project (thinking the process and results would be better)?

With all due respect, I'll put Mike M. and Beltsander-Jack down for
"Ney". Any "Ayes"?
--------------------------------------
A jointer has no place in this project; however, a 48" wide commercial
drum sander is another matter.

Lew

"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
b.com...
Bill wrote:

When I first started coming to the Wreck, a little before I "got
interested" in shop renovation, Lew helped me formulate the idea of
making a 6-7 foot workbench top by glueing together, face-to-face, a
bunch of 2-by dimensional lumber (SYP, 2by10s, ripped in half).

Being naive, I almost believed my glue-ups would be almost as nice as my
pictures. Now, being more familiar with jointers, I fear
"near-disaster", if I don't joint at one edge (which will end up on the
top) and the faces too. I have been encouraged to run glue-ups of 4
boards, say, through my planer, and I can see how that could help, but I
can see how things could work out a whole lot better if all of the
boards went through a jointer first, before and after glueing--not that
I have one.

Bill


Just curious, who would recommend me to use (or not use) a jointer for
this project (thinking the process and results would be better)?

With all due respect, I'll put Mike M. and Beltsander-Jack down for
"Ney". Any "Ayes"?
--------------------------------------
A jointer has no place in this project; however, a 48" wide commercial
drum sander is another matter.


Lew,

Are you sure that would work? Wouldn't a 36" or larger thickness planer be
better?

John

Dave wrote:
On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 13:20:13 -0400, Jack wrote:
...and not so much in others. I'm perfectly happy with my 35 year
old shop vac, and am willing to wear ear muffs rather than spend a
$100 or so on a new one that is a bit quieter, and certainly won't
spend $645 on a Festool that does pretty much the same thing,
regardless of how pretty and quiet it might be...

And what if that Festool vacuum is part and parcel of getting and
keeping customers. LESS dust in a customer's house. Much LESS noise in
that same customer's house. May customers are living in the same house
a contractor my be working in.

Got a smart reply to that scenario Jack?

To be fair Dave - plastic has served that purpose just fine for years -
and... it's silent.

--

-Mike-

Bill wrote in :



Just curious, who would recommend me to use (or not use) a jointer for
this project (thinking the process and results would be better)?

With all due respect, I'll put Mike M. and Beltsander-Jack down for
"Ney". Any "Ayes"?

Bill

After I bought my jointer, it sat in the box for a couple months before I
got around to using it. It's just not that critical of tool for general
woodworking. If you're working with rough wood, a jointer can be an
excellent tool. Borg 2x4s, reasonably selected, not so much.

If you want to buy a jointer, buy a jointer. It's one of those "last
mile" type tools that extends what you can do with wood, but it doesn't
really do anything special like a planer.

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

On 4/15/2012 7:48 PM, Doug Winterburn wrote:
On 04/15/2012 04:34 PM, Leon wrote:
On 4/15/2012 1:47 PM, Jack wrote:
On 4/15/2012 2:00 PM, Leon wrote:
On 4/15/2012 12:20 PM, Jack wrote:

Toyota, Lincoln. Picking a Lincoln over a Toyota would be a step
down in
quality. If you value bling over value get the Lincoln.

Let me guess, you own a Toyota?

Absolutely and after having owned 3 other brand trucks in the past 30
years I am extremely happy with my decision to go Toyota this time. And
I can say that with out bad mouthing or making fun of those that don't
agree with my choice.


I'm waiting for the Toyota diesel PU. Dragging around a 5th wheel with a
gasoline engine is not a lot of fun, so my 2004 duramax will have to do
until then.

my gas duelly pulls my 5r just fine. I'd probably out pull most coal
burners on some of the hills i do.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 18:54:44 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 4/15/2012 2:07 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 13:00:28 -0500, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:
Simply put, if this is too much money for you to spend and or you are a
hobbyist you really should not be looking at Festool.
If you were earning a living with your tools it is a no brainer.

What I'm trying to figure out is why you're not using your dust
collector. Ditto a $100 portable model for onsite use. The sound
level is about the same: quiet.

My DC does not filter as well as the twin HEPA filters in my Festool
Vac. I use the Festool for the Track saw, both Festool sanders, and the
Domino, oh and the Kreg pocket hole jig. The sanders produce very fine
dust which I do not see.

You could have bought HEPA cannister filters for the DC. They cost
1/4-1/2 what a CT costs. I have the felt bags good for 1u, slightly
out of the HEPA range of 0.3u.


The Festool is much "quieter" than any $100 unit and my DC for that

Almost all DCs I've heard are significantly quieter than any shop vac
other than the Festools. My Griz 1029 wouldn't wake up a napper in
the next room, or possibly in the same room.


matter. When used with any of my power tools I cannot hear the Festool
vac running.

Nor can I hear my DC when any other tools are running. shrug


The Festool is my power supply for my power tools and on a
job site it is some times difficult to locate an extra socket for the
vac or tool. UH Swingman? LOL

There's a good point. Very handy built-in. But switches are
available separately for both 120 and 240v systems.
http://www.grizzly.com/outlet/iVac-Switch-Box/T21636

--
A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner, so if
one's life is cold and bare he can blame none but himself.
-- Louis L'Amour

On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 17:48:45 -0700, Doug Winterburn
wrote:

On 04/15/2012 04:34 PM, Leon wrote:
On 4/15/2012 1:47 PM, Jack wrote:
On 4/15/2012 2:00 PM, Leon wrote:
On 4/15/2012 12:20 PM, Jack wrote:

Toyota, Lincoln. Picking a Lincoln over a Toyota would be a step down in
quality. If you value bling over value get the Lincoln.

Let me guess, you own a Toyota?

Absolutely and after having owned 3 other brand trucks in the past 30
years I am extremely happy with my decision to go Toyota this time. And
I can say that with out bad mouthing or making fun of those that don't
agree with my choice.


I'm waiting for the Toyota diesel PU. Dragging around a 5th wheel with
a gasoline engine is not a lot of fun, so my 2004 duramax will have to
do until then.

Yeah, a diesel can be great for heavy duty hauling.

I see that they finally put out a Tundra with a 4-cyl engine. Unless
I'm hauling a ton of gravel, my small V-8 is way overkill for my
needs. I'd love to have bought a hybrid pickup but Toyota never made
one.

--
A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner, so if
one's life is cold and bare he can blame none but himself.
-- Louis L'Amour

Puckdropper wrote:
wrote in :



Just curious, who would recommend me to use (or not use) a jointer for
this project (thinking the process and results would be better)?

With all due respect, I'll put Mike M. and Beltsander-Jack down for
"Ney". Any "Ayes"?

Bill

After I bought my jointer, it sat in the box for a couple months before I
got around to using it. It's just not that critical of tool for general
woodworking. If you're working with rough wood, a jointer can be an
excellent tool. Borg 2x4s, reasonably selected, not so much.

If you want to buy a jointer, buy a jointer. It's one of those "last
mile" type tools that extends what you can do with wood, but it doesn't
really do anything special like a planer.

Puckdropper

I basically agree with you on 2by4s Puck. It was either DadiOH or the
gentleman from NC (stuart?) who said something to the effect that you
can't expect a board to be dimensioned unless you made it that way. One
would want the top of a piece of furniture to be true. Of course, that
doesn't mean an 8inch jointer is required.

On 4/15/2012 9:51 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 18:54:44 -0500, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 4/15/2012 2:07 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 13:00:28 -0500, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:
Simply put, if this is too much money for you to spend and or you are a
hobbyist you really should not be looking at Festool.
If you were earning a living with your tools it is a no brainer.

What I'm trying to figure out is why you're not using your dust
collector. Ditto a $100 portable model for onsite use. The sound
level is about the same: quiet.

My DC does not filter as well as the twin HEPA filters in my Festool
Vac. I use the Festool for the Track saw, both Festool sanders, and the
Domino, oh and the Kreg pocket hole jig. The sanders produce very fine
dust which I do not see.

You could have bought HEPA cannister filters for the DC. They cost
1/4-1/2 what a CT costs. I have the felt bags good for 1u, slightly
out of the HEPA range of 0.3u.


The Festool is much "quieter" than any $100 unit and my DC for that

Almost all DCs I've heard are significantly quieter than any shop vac
other than the Festools. My Griz 1029 wouldn't wake up a napper in
the next room, or possibly in the same room.


matter. When used with any of my power tools I cannot hear the Festool
vac running.

Nor can I hear my DC when any other tools are running.shrug

I think it would be difficult to take a 6' tall dust collector into a
customers house....






The Festool is my power supply for my power tools and on a
job site it is some times difficult to locate an extra socket for the
vac or tool. UH Swingman? LOL

There's a good point. Very handy built-in. But switches are
available separately for both 120 and 240v systems.
http://www.grizzly.com/outlet/iVac-Switch-Box/T21636

And I could have spent $400 of my time setting up "every thing" to make
things work like a Festool Vac. And hauling a DC to a clients house is
out of the question. Time is money.





--
A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner, so if
one's life is cold and bare he can blame none but himself.
-- Louis L'Amour

On 4/15/2012 9:54 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 17:48:45 -0700, Doug Winterburn
wrote:

On 04/15/2012 04:34 PM, Leon wrote:
On 4/15/2012 1:47 PM, Jack wrote:
On 4/15/2012 2:00 PM, Leon wrote:
On 4/15/2012 12:20 PM, Jack wrote:

Toyota, Lincoln. Picking a Lincoln over a Toyota would be a step down in
quality. If you value bling over value get the Lincoln.

Let me guess, you own a Toyota?

Absolutely and after having owned 3 other brand trucks in the past 30
years I am extremely happy with my decision to go Toyota this time. And
I can say that with out bad mouthing or making fun of those that don't
agree with my choice.


I'm waiting for the Toyota diesel PU. Dragging around a 5th wheel with
a gasoline engine is not a lot of fun, so my 2004 duramax will have to
do until then.

Yeah, a diesel can be great for heavy duty hauling.

I see that they finally put out a Tundra with a 4-cyl engine. Unless
I'm hauling a ton of gravel, my small V-8 is way overkill for my
needs. I'd love to have bought a hybrid pickup but Toyota never made
one.

Where exactly did you see that. The Toyota site does not list a 4
banger for a Tundra.

On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 22:39:09 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
Got a smart reply to that scenario Jack?

To be fair Dave - plastic has served that purpose just fine for years -
and... it's silent.

Plastic? What does plastic have to do with anything?

I wrote:

A jointer has no place in this project; however, a 48" wide
commercial drum sander is another matter.
--------------------------------------
"John Grossbohlin" wrote:

Are you sure that would work? Wouldn't a 36" or larger thickness
planer be better?

John
----------------------------------------
It's a lot easier to get rental time around here on a 48" wide drum
sander than a 36" wide thickness planer, especially when they find out
you want to expose those 36" planer blades to a soft wood glued up
lamination.

I can get a 24" x 84" top sanded flat for less than $30.00 here in
SoCal.

Lew

Bill wrote in :


I basically agree with you on 2by4s Puck. It was either DadiOH or the
gentleman from NC (stuart?) who said something to the effect that you
can't expect a board to be dimensioned unless you made it that way.
One would want the top of a piece of furniture to be true. Of course,
that doesn't mean an 8inch jointer is required.


You also can't expect a board to stay dimensioned if you cut it
yesterday. :-) Wood was alive once, and it never forgets it. (It
usually doesn't move enough to be a problem, but some times...)

To create large flat areas, I'd glue up smaller panels and plane them to
the same thickness. Then I'd glue the smaller panels into large ones,
being careful to maintain alignment. Clean up with a hand plane (some
suggest a scraper) and you're done. It might not be within .010" the
whole way across, but for most things it doesn't have to be.

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

Dave wrote:
On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 22:39:09 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
Got a smart reply to that scenario Jack?

To be fair Dave - plastic has served that purpose just fine for
years - and... it's silent.

Plastic? What does plastic have to do with anything?

You know - temporary partitions to wall off the work area.

--

-Mike-

On Mon, 16 Apr 2012 06:36:04 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
Plastic? What does plastic have to do with anything?
You know - temporary partitions to wall off the work area.

Oh. Ok, but it doesn't do much for noise. It takes time to put up and
take down and there's still a sweep up to do. The Festool collection
system is much like the Domino. Sure, in the past they used something
else, but now there's something that is faster, cleaner, quieter and
more capable.

There's some things that just make sense and this is one of them.

On 4/15/2012 1:00 PM, Leon wrote:

Simply put, if this is too much money for you to spend and or you are a
hobbyist you really should not be looking at Festool.
If you are earning a living with your tools it is a no brainer.

It is a simple as the above.

And that _is_ a no brainer.

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop