On Mon, 09 Apr 2012 12:24:04 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 4/9/2012 11:41 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Mon, 09 Apr 2012 10:27:22 -0500, wrote:

On 4/9/2012 9:14 AM, tiredofspam wrote:
Ryobi had been owned by John Deere during the 90s. John Deere stripped
the company of all quality, then sold the business. I had known someone
who worked for Ryobi back then. The complaint I heard from him was how
JD was just destroying the quality, and making them a useless brand.

MBAthink ... ramped up during WWII, took hold in the sixties, perverted
since to the ridiculous extreme of
bottom-line-fixation-damn-all-else-****-the-consumer-while-I-get-mine
mentality.

I've owned several Ryobi tools over the years and have always had good
luck with them. The nicads didn't last quite as long as I'd like, but
that's common to pricy tools, too.

I also have the BTS-10 portable table saw. It's gutless enough to
prevent dangerous kickbacks, a plus in my book.g

You reallllly don't believe that do you???

I most certainly do. I've stalled it when a piece of ply slipped as I
fed it through. It didn't have the guts to kick it back. On smaller
items, though, I'd be less cavalier.


I recently bought the large kit for less than an equivalent drill
motor from the top brands. $125 got me a drill motor, recip saw, circ
saw, flashlight, two batteries, charger, and nylon kit bag to carry
them in. The 18v circ saw outlasts my old 14.4v saw by a 3:1 margin,
but is still too short. That's the only negative thing I can say about
them. The drill motors have dual bubble levels on them, so you can
drill precisely vertically or horizontally. It's a GREAT idea, one
which I don't see on other brands. http://tinyurl.com/7am9bla

I think I first started buying Ryobis in 1999, though. Perhaps I
waited out the JD trashing and got good tools.

Actually the good Ryobi tools were built in the 80's, IMHO about
equivalent to Makita back then and mostly sold by tool dealers.

OK.

--
Live Simply. Speak Kindly. Care Deeply. Love Generously.
-- anon

That's not what the guy I knew that worked at Ryobi said. I was also
aware of the Homelite aquisition.

After he told me about the nonsense going on at Ryobi ... he was
eventually laid off. My first hint that it was true was actually in the
Ryobi outdoor line. My gas power trimmer (Ryobi) was not appearing in HD
for a while, and the John Deere stuff now had the replaceable implements
that Ryobi had developed. And the JD heads were compatible to the
Ryobi's. So for a while it definetly seemed like JD was moving in.. but
it appeared only long enough to strip maybe patents and destroy the
companies before moving on.

On 4/9/2012 12:27 PM, dpb wrote:
On 4/9/2012 9:14 AM, tiredofspam wrote:
Ryobi had been owned by John Deere during the 90s....

No, don't think so.

Maybe you're thinking of the Homelite homeowner outdoor tools. Deere did
own Homelite for a while and divested themselves of it (to TTI) but
afaik never Ryobi.

Deere & Co acquires Textron Inc-Homelite Division from Textron Inc Aug
29, 1994


TechTronics Industries Co acquires Deere & Co-Homelite Consumer from
Deere & Co TechTronics Industries Co acquires Deere & Co-Homelite
Consumer from Deere & Co Nov 16, 2001

http://www.alacrastore.com/mergers-acquisitions/Deere_Company-1004803

for detailed listing of Deere acquisitions/dispositions from early 80s
forward.

--

Actually there are some 4" benchtop models. Not noteworthy.

On 4/9/2012 2:06 PM, Pat Barber wrote:
On 4/7/2012 12:08 AM, wrote:
I've been looking at jointers and planers for a home shop. It seems
that all of the commercially available jointers are 6" and the planers
are about 12". What's the point in having a planer twice as large?

I must be missing something obvious... help a rookie out?

Thanks!

I don't think you have been looking at "commercial grade" equipment if
that's all you have seen.

A 6" jointer is about the smallest you can buy.

A 12" planer is also quite small by commercial standards.

Here are a few examples:

http://www.deltamachinery.com/products/jointers

http://www.deltamachinery.com/products/planers

The size depends on the stock you work with and
the amount of money you have.

The 6" jointer is fine for smaller, shorter stock,
while the 8" is for wider and longer stock. The 8"
jointer normally has a MUCH longer table,ex:
6" jointer 46"
8" jointer 76"

The planers also follow similar patterns.

If you buy s4s lumber, a big jointer is not needed
but if you buy rough cut, the need is there for the
jointer and the planer.

The smaller "lunch box" planer(12") is fine for many shops
and is MUCH cheaper to get into. The next step up is a
15" and that's when price makes a real difference. You
are paying for bigger, much more powerful motors and heavier
equipment. a standard 15" planer is "about" 340 lbs, while the
12" is 76 lbs.

On 4/9/2012 2:12 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Mon, 09 Apr 2012 12:24:04 -0500, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 4/9/2012 11:41 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Mon, 09 Apr 2012 10:27:22 -0500, wrote:

On 4/9/2012 9:14 AM, tiredofspam wrote:
Ryobi had been owned by John Deere during the 90s. John Deere stripped
the company of all quality, then sold the business. I had known someone
who worked for Ryobi back then. The complaint I heard from him was how
JD was just destroying the quality, and making them a useless brand.

MBAthink ... ramped up during WWII, took hold in the sixties, perverted
since to the ridiculous extreme of
bottom-line-fixation-damn-all-else-****-the-consumer-while-I-get-mine
mentality.

I've owned several Ryobi tools over the years and have always had good
luck with them. The nicads didn't last quite as long as I'd like, but
that's common to pricy tools, too.

I also have the BTS-10 portable table saw. It's gutless enough to
prevent dangerous kickbacks, a plus in my book.g

You reallllly don't believe that do you???

I most certainly do. I've stalled it when a piece of ply slipped as I
fed it through. It didn't have the guts to kick it back. On smaller
items, though, I'd be less cavalier.

You apparently don't know what kick back is. I have had kick back with
1 hp saws that stalled easily. Stalling a blade is not anywhere near
kick back.

On 4/9/2012 2:55 PM, tiredofspam wrote:
That's not what the guy I knew that worked at Ryobi said. I was also
aware of the Homelite aquisition.

After he told me about the nonsense going on at Ryobi ... he was
eventually laid off. My first hint that it was true was ...


TechTronics Industries Co acquires Deere & Co-Homelite Consumer from
Deere & Co TechTronics Industries Co acquires Deere & Co-Homelite
Consumer from Deere & Co Nov 16, 2001

http://www.alacrastore.com/mergers-acquisitions/Deere_Company-1004803

for detailed listing of Deere acquisitions/dispositions from early 80s
forward.

....

I can find absolutely no indication anywhere (including Deere annual
reports and the Ryobi corporate history site) of Deere ever having any
ownership interest in Ryobi.

That Ryobi may have built some green-branded stuff is quite possible;
but I simply do not believe the ownership story is so.

--

On Mon, 09 Apr 2012 16:44:30 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 4/9/2012 2:12 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Mon, 09 Apr 2012 12:24:04 -0500, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 4/9/2012 11:41 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Mon, 09 Apr 2012 10:27:22 -0500, wrote:

On 4/9/2012 9:14 AM, tiredofspam wrote:
Ryobi had been owned by John Deere during the 90s. John Deere stripped
the company of all quality, then sold the business. I had known someone
who worked for Ryobi back then. The complaint I heard from him was how
JD was just destroying the quality, and making them a useless brand.

MBAthink ... ramped up during WWII, took hold in the sixties, perverted
since to the ridiculous extreme of
bottom-line-fixation-damn-all-else-****-the-consumer-while-I-get-mine
mentality.

I've owned several Ryobi tools over the years and have always had good
luck with them. The nicads didn't last quite as long as I'd like, but
that's common to pricy tools, too.

I also have the BTS-10 portable table saw. It's gutless enough to
prevent dangerous kickbacks, a plus in my book.g

You reallllly don't believe that do you???

I most certainly do. I've stalled it when a piece of ply slipped as I
fed it through. It didn't have the guts to kick it back. On smaller
items, though, I'd be less cavalier.

You apparently don't know what kick back is. I have had kick back with
1 hp saws that stalled easily. Stalling a blade is not anywhere near
kick back.

Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa. I bow to your (half?) vast
storehouse of knowledge, sir. I've had only one kicked-back piece
stick into the door in my mere minutes as a woodworker. sigh

--
Resolve to be thyself: and know, that he who finds himself, loses his misery.
-- Matthew Arnold

On 4/8/2012 3:04 PM, tiredofspam wrote:
No doubt that you are right about the lumber.
Even man made lumber (ply) is diminishing in quality.

And the price is getting up there for all, hardwoods, softwoods, and ply.

Price is high but is the true cost any different? I heard somewhere
that in 1920 you could buy a gallon of gas for 2 dimes, and if you
melted the silver out of those two dimes today, you could still buy a
gallon of gas with them. Wood is probably no different.

Governments reduce their debt by printing funny money. The value of
money can only be increased by increasing productivity, not with a
printing press.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 4/9/2012 11:27 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 4/9/2012 9:14 AM, tiredofspam wrote:
Ryobi had been owned by John Deere during the 90s. John Deere stripped
the company of all quality, then sold the business. I had known someone
who worked for Ryobi back then. The complaint I heard from him was how
JD was just destroying the quality, and making them a useless brand.

MBAthink ... ramped up during WWII, took hold in the sixties, perverted
since to the ridiculous extreme of
bottom-line-fixation-damn-all-else-****-the-consumer-while-I-get-mine
mentality.

The same "MBAthink" that builds Ryobi, B&D, Grizzly etc also build
Laguna, Northfield, Festool etc. The consumer drives the markets, not
the MBA's you speak of. Lots of people are willing to spend 80 bucks on
a shop vac, very few will spend $550 for one. "MBAthink" says if I can
sell 10 million Festool vacs and make a ton of money, I'll do it. They
can't, so they don't. I'd say that is common sense, not MBA think but
it's not even common sense, it's how it is, or you go out of business.

I can buy a Ryobi planer, a Grizz planer, or a Northfield planer. It's
up to me, and all the MBAthinkers do is make the choices possible.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

Sorry, I don't agree.

There have been many decisions to water down brands to save money.
Without going into a long dissertation, the MBA takes the choice away,
they don't add to the choices. Since they are all taking the quality
away and making it cheaper (not less expensive), what used to be common
place, is now no longer to be found. Good??? maybe for some bottom
lines. But not good in general. The downward spiral can not be stopped.

We are lacking talent, because we have made it so. Yes the consumer is
partly responsible, but the MBA is responsible, and so is corporate
America (kills free thinking and ingenuity) . So I think each gets a
third of the pie.

On 4/10/2012 10:14 AM, Jack wrote:
On 4/9/2012 11:27 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 4/9/2012 9:14 AM, tiredofspam wrote:
Ryobi had been owned by John Deere during the 90s. John Deere stripped
the company of all quality, then sold the business. I had known someone
who worked for Ryobi back then. The complaint I heard from him was how
JD was just destroying the quality, and making them a useless brand.

MBAthink ... ramped up during WWII, took hold in the sixties, perverted
since to the ridiculous extreme of
bottom-line-fixation-damn-all-else-****-the-consumer-while-I-get-mine
mentality.

The same "MBAthink" that builds Ryobi, B&D, Grizzly etc also build
Laguna, Northfield, Festool etc. The consumer drives the markets, not
the MBA's you speak of. Lots of people are willing to spend 80 bucks on
a shop vac, very few will spend $550 for one. "MBAthink" says if I can
sell 10 million Festool vacs and make a ton of money, I'll do it. They
can't, so they don't. I'd say that is common sense, not MBA think but
it's not even common sense, it's how it is, or you go out of business.

I can buy a Ryobi planer, a Grizz planer, or a Northfield planer. It's
up to me, and all the MBAthinkers do is make the choices possible.

On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 09:49:31 -0400, Jack wrote:
Price is high but is the true cost any different? I heard somewhere
that in 1920 you could buy a gallon of gas for 2 dimes, and if you
melted the silver out of those two dimes today, you could still buy a
gallon of gas with them. Wood is probably no different.

Sorry, can't agree with that viewpoint. The big difference these days
is the fact that the availability of quality wood has diminished
greatly. Sure, top quality wood is still available if you've got the
bucks, but even the high price hasn't kept up with the loss of quality
wood products. This is evidenced by the vanishing of lumberyards and
the companies who specialize in reclaimed wood.

Hell, it's pretty obvious when we see plastic composites replacing
deck boards. Sure, much the demand for this counterfeit cedar is
driven by people wanting material that doesn't decay. But, a great
deal of that demand is also driven by the high cost accompanied by the
lessening availability of the real product.

On 4/10/2012 9:14 AM, Jack wrote:
On 4/9/2012 11:27 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 4/9/2012 9:14 AM, tiredofspam wrote:
Ryobi had been owned by John Deere during the 90s. John Deere stripped
the company of all quality, then sold the business. I had known someone
who worked for Ryobi back then. The complaint I heard from him was how
JD was just destroying the quality, and making them a useless brand.

MBAthink ... ramped up during WWII, took hold in the sixties, perverted
since to the ridiculous extreme of
bottom-line-fixation-damn-all-else-****-the-consumer-while-I-get-mine
mentality.

The same "MBAthink" that builds Ryobi, B&D, Grizzly etc also build
Laguna, Northfield, Festool etc. The consumer drives the markets, not
the MBA's you speak of.Lots of people are willing to spend 80 bucks on
a shop vac, very few will spend $550 for one. "MBAthink" says if I can
sell 10 million Festool vacs and make a ton of money, I'll do it. They
can't, so they don't. I'd say that is common sense, not MBA think but
it's not even common sense, it's how it is, or you go out of business.

I can buy a Ryobi planer, a Grizz planer, or a Northfield planer. It's
up to me, and all the MBAthinkers do is make the choices possible.

Bull****!

Jack, my friend, you miss the point, and concept expressed in the term,
entirely.

Instead of continuing the innovation and engineering that built
_quality_ into a previously respected brand/product, the name of the
game, as played by the current "Ryobi" and MBAthink ilk, is:

~ Acquisition_ of a trusted _brand name_ previously known for innovation
and quality engineering.

~ Negating any previous "build quality" in the product by rigorous
_price point engineering_ .

~ Manufacturing same as cheaply as possible by use of cheap materials,
low cost, unskilled labor

~ Marketing, thru clever, deceptive advertising, to dupes, suckers, and
the ignorant unsuspecting, by relying solely upon the previous
reputation of the brand, and for whatever the market will bear.

All above, basic tenets of "MBAthink" as expressed. (IOW, you do not
have to have any knowledge whatsoever of a product in order to
successfully market it by simply buying the name and making it cheap ...
AKA "**** the quality, it's our bottom line, stupid" ... and we see
what kind of crap that has served up)

To equate that methodology to products like Festool is ridiculous to an
extreme. That is an inarguable fact, and to say otherwise is totally
ignoring the reality of much of the current global market place.

And, in case you were somehow not paying attention, here is just one
small example of what the face of that concept looks like:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...87662054187346

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On 4/10/2012 9:49 AM, Jack wrote:
On 4/8/2012 3:04 PM, tiredofspam wrote:
No doubt that you are right about the lumber.
Even man made lumber (ply) is diminishing in quality.

And the price is getting up there for all, hardwoods, softwoods, and ply.

Price is high but is the true cost any different? I heard somewhere that
in 1920 you could buy a gallon of gas for 2 dimes, and if you melted the
silver out of those two dimes today, you could still buy a gallon of gas
with them. Wood is probably no different.




Governments reduce their debt by printing funny money. The value of
money can only be increased by increasing productivity, not with a
printing press.


Well, taking money out of circulation works too. One might even argue
that the reduction in the value of home prices reduced purchasing power,
which may have increased the relative value of a dollar. No?

Perhaps that partly explains why the rate of inflation now is not higher
now than I anticipated it would be.

Bill

On 4/10/2012 10:59 AM, Dave wrote:
On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 09:49:31 -0400, wrote:
Price is high but is the true cost any different? I heard somewhere
that in 1920 you could buy a gallon of gas for 2 dimes, and if you
melted the silver out of those two dimes today, you could still buy a
gallon of gas with them. Wood is probably no different.

Sorry, can't agree with that viewpoint. The big difference these days
is the fact that the availability of quality wood has diminished
greatly.

Depends on what you mean by quality wood. Certainly wood from rain
forests is scarce, or illegal to buy, so the price is high. I just went
to my shop and found some papers on stuff I made in 1978. I had paid 42
cents a foot for #2 2x6 pine. Looking up at HD today, the same wood is
63 cents a foot. Going to http://www.westegg.com inflation calculator,
that same board should cost $1.39 in 2010, the last year they had, so
it's even better than that. And yes, the quality of the wood is the
same or better than what I got in 1978. This may not be true of all
species of wood, but is for the most commonly used stuff. In fact, I
remember big stores like Busy Beaver sold #4 junk graded as #2, so I
would generally buy from a higher priced yard where #2 was #2. HD, at
least mine, the #2 is mostly pretty decent stuff, no complaints from me.

Sure, top quality wood is still available if you've got the
bucks, but even the high price hasn't kept up with the loss of quality
wood products. This is evidenced by the vanishing of lumberyards and
the companies who specialize in reclaimed wood.

Lumberyards have just about disappeared from my area. I need to buy
some hard wood and don't even know where to go. HD sells super high
quality, select #1 oak at like a $million a foot. Rockler sells all
sorts of crap at unbelievable prices. There is one lumber yard left in
my area and I hated that place 40 years ago because of high prices and
lack of selection, so won't go there.

Hell, it's pretty obvious when we see plastic composites replacing
deck boards. Sure, much the demand for this counterfeit cedar is
driven by people wanting material that doesn't decay.

Every time I stain my deck, (every other year) I wish I would have used
plastic instead of real wood.

But, a great
deal of that demand is also driven by the high cost accompanied by the
lessening availability of the real product.

I don't think wolmanized decking is any more expensive now than it was
25 years ago, adjusted for inflation. I don't have prices for when I
built my deck, so can only guess, unlike what I did above.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
47

On 4/10/2012 10:29 AM, tiredofspam wrote:
Sorry, I don't agree.

You don't agree that you can buy a cheap Ryobi, a middle priced Grizz,
or a high priced Festool?

There have been many decisions to water down brands to save money.

Sure, it is a business decision. Few people want to spend $500 on a
shop vac, lots spend 80 bucks on a shop vac. All are available to
everyone, at least in the USA where "MBAthink" reigns.

Without going into a long dissertation, the MBA takes the choice away,
they don't add to the choices. Since they are all taking the quality
away and making it cheaper (not less expensive), what used to be common
place, is now no longer to be found. Good???

You could always buy quality and cheap products, at least in my lifetime.

maybe for some bottom
lines. But not good in general. The downward spiral can not be stopped.

I don't think you could have found a 15" planer with a spiral, segmented
cutter head at anywhere near the price of a Grizz, even if not adjusted
for government inflation, 40 years ago. You are very wrong about the
choices.

We are lacking talent, because we have made it so. Yes the consumer is
partly responsible, but the MBA is responsible, and so is corporate
America (kills free thinking and ingenuity) . So I think each gets a
third of the pie.

Corporate America pays big money for free thinking and ingenuity. that's
why you can buy a shop vac that works fine for $80 or $500, or a Tsaw
for $500 or $1500 or $3500, your choice.

When "corporate America is forced by government hacks to only sell $3500
Table saws, then free thinking and ingenuity will be killed, but not by
corporate America, but Big Government America, AKA, your socialist Big
Brother.

--
Jack
Got Change: Supply and Demand ====== Command and Control!
http://jbstein.com

On 4/10/2012 10:14 AM, Jack wrote:
On 4/9/2012 11:27 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 4/9/2012 9:14 AM, tiredofspam wrote:
Ryobi had been owned by John Deere during the 90s. John Deere stripped
the company of all quality, then sold the business. I had known someone
who worked for Ryobi back then. The complaint I heard from him was how
JD was just destroying the quality, and making them a useless brand.

MBAthink ... ramped up during WWII, took hold in the sixties, perverted
since to the ridiculous extreme of
bottom-line-fixation-damn-all-else-****-the-consumer-while-I-get-mine
mentality.

The same "MBAthink" that builds Ryobi, B&D, Grizzly etc also build
Laguna, Northfield, Festool etc. The consumer drives the markets, not
the MBA's you speak of. Lots of people are willing to spend 80 bucks on
a shop vac, very few will spend $550 for one. "MBAthink" says if I can
sell 10 million Festool vacs and make a ton of money, I'll do it. They
can't, so they don't. I'd say that is common sense, not MBA think but
it's not even common sense, it's how it is, or you go out of business.

I can buy a Ryobi planer, a Grizz planer, or a Northfield planer. It's
up to me, and all the MBAthinkers do is make the choices possible.



--
Jack
Got Change: Supply and Demand ====== Command and Control!
http://jbstein.com

On 4/10/2012 12:10 PM, Jack wrote:
On 4/10/2012 10:29 AM, tiredofspam wrote:
Sorry, I don't agree.

You don't agree that you can buy a cheap Ryobi, a middle priced Grizz,
or a high priced Festool?

There have been many decisions to water down brands to save money.

Sure, it is a business decision. Few people want to spend $500 on a shop
vac, lots spend 80 bucks on a shop vac. All are available to everyone,
at least in the USA where "MBAthink" reigns.

Without going into a long dissertation, the MBA takes the choice away,
they don't add to the choices. Since they are all taking the quality
away and making it cheaper (not less expensive), what used to be common
place, is now no longer to be found. Good???

You could always buy quality and cheap products, at least in my lifetime.

maybe for some bottom
lines. But not good in general. The downward spiral can not be stopped.

I don't think you could have found a 15" planer with a spiral, segmented
cutter head at anywhere near the price of a Grizz, even if not adjusted
for government inflation, 40 years ago. You are very wrong about the
choices.

We are lacking talent, because we have made it so. Yes the consumer is
partly responsible, but the MBA is responsible, and so is corporate
America (kills free thinking and ingenuity) . So I think each gets a
third of the pie.

Corporate America pays big money for free thinking and ingenuity. that's
why you can buy a shop vac that works fine for $80 or $500, or a Tsaw
for $500 or $1500 or $3500, your choice.

You are so wrong about that. Corp America stifles free thinking and
ingenuity. The problem with Corp America is that anyone who wants to
bring change is told that's not the way we do it. Over and over I hear
this. If you can show them that it creates more problems doing it the
way they are doing it, they will stick to doing it the way they are
used to. It's safe that way. No managers will stick their necks out.
The culture that has been created is not about quality or change.. its
about ROI.. and that is where it all breaks down.



When "corporate America is forced by government hacks to only sell $3500
Table saws, then free thinking and ingenuity will be killed, but not by
corporate America, but Big Government America, AKA, your socialist Big
Brother.

Jack wrote:
On 4/9/2012 11:27 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 4/9/2012 9:14 AM, tiredofspam wrote:
Ryobi had been owned by John Deere during the 90s. John Deere
stripped the company of all quality, then sold the business. I had
known someone who worked for Ryobi back then. The complaint I heard
from him was how JD was just destroying the quality, and making
them a useless brand.

MBAthink ... ramped up during WWII, took hold in the sixties,
perverted since to the ridiculous extreme of
bottom-line-fixation-damn-all-else-****-the-consumer-while-I-get-mine
mentality.

The same "MBAthink" that builds Ryobi, B&D, Grizzly etc also build
Laguna, Northfield, Festool etc. The consumer drives the markets, not
the MBA's you speak of. Lots of people are willing to spend 80 bucks
on a shop vac, very few will spend $550 for one. "MBAthink" says if
I can sell 10 million Festool vacs and make a ton of money, I'll do
it. They can't, so they don't. I'd say that is common sense, not
MBA think but it's not even common sense, it's how it is, or you go
out of business.

Finally - a voice of reason on this whole MBA think topic! The ones who are
most upset with "MBA Think" are the ones who are not MBA's. One has to
wonder...

--

-Mike-

Jack, have you bought from local mills, or guys that do their own wood.

I buy from guys that are not your traditional lumber yards.
More like mills.

Some advertise on the side of the road... hardwood for sale.
at first when I moved here I thought these guys were selling firewood.
Then it dawned on me it doesn't say firewood.

Stop going to the HD for hardwood. Awful stuff. And no it's not high
quality. High Quality is straight and not twisted. These HD crap are
already surfaced on four sides. How can you clean them up if they are
twisted like pretzels.

So I have never bought from a lumber or HD quality wood. I have seen it
in old pieces of furniture that I have refinished.. tight growth rings.
Beautiful looks. What I buy from HD is ply or 2x4. But even that I am
reluctant too lately. All the ply I got from HD twisted like a pretzel.
How stable is a piece of ply that has a huge bow in it... Pretty stable.
I can't get it flat again.

I have gotten some decent wood from these small mills. So I'll
respectfully disagree.

On 4/10/2012 12:10 PM, Jack wrote:
On 4/10/2012 10:59 AM, Dave wrote:
On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 09:49:31 -0400, wrote:
Price is high but is the true cost any different? I heard somewhere
that in 1920 you could buy a gallon of gas for 2 dimes, and if you
melted the silver out of those two dimes today, you could still buy a
gallon of gas with them. Wood is probably no different.

Sorry, can't agree with that viewpoint. The big difference these days
is the fact that the availability of quality wood has diminished
greatly.

Depends on what you mean by quality wood. Certainly wood from rain
forests is scarce, or illegal to buy, so the price is high. I just went
to my shop and found some papers on stuff I made in 1978. I had paid 42
cents a foot for #2 2x6 pine. Looking up at HD today, the same wood is
63 cents a foot. Going to http://www.westegg.com inflation calculator,
that same board should cost $1.39 in 2010, the last year they had, so
it's even better than that. And yes, the quality of the wood is the same
or better than what I got in 1978. This may not be true of all species
of wood, but is for the most commonly used stuff. In fact, I remember
big stores like Busy Beaver sold #4 junk graded as #2, so I would
generally buy from a higher priced yard where #2 was #2. HD, at least
mine, the #2 is mostly pretty decent stuff, no complaints from me.

Sure, top quality wood is still available if you've got the
bucks, but even the high price hasn't kept up with the loss of quality
wood products. This is evidenced by the vanishing of lumberyards and
the companies who specialize in reclaimed wood.

Lumberyards have just about disappeared from my area. I need to buy some
hard wood and don't even know where to go. HD sells super high quality,
select #1 oak at like a $million a foot. Rockler sells all sorts of crap
at unbelievable prices. There is one lumber yard left in my area and I
hated that place 40 years ago because of high prices and lack of
selection, so won't go there.

Hell, it's pretty obvious when we see plastic composites replacing
deck boards. Sure, much the demand for this counterfeit cedar is
driven by people wanting material that doesn't decay.

Every time I stain my deck, (every other year) I wish I would have used
plastic instead of real wood.

But, a great
deal of that demand is also driven by the high cost accompanied by the
lessening availability of the real product.

I don't think wolmanized decking is any more expensive now than it was
25 years ago, adjusted for inflation. I don't have prices for when I
built my deck, so can only guess, unlike what I did above.

On 4/10/2012 11:15 AM, Bill wrote:
On 4/10/2012 9:49 AM, Jack wrote:
On 4/8/2012 3:04 PM, tiredofspam wrote:
No doubt that you are right about the lumber.
Even man made lumber (ply) is diminishing in quality.

And the price is getting up there for all, hardwoods, softwoods, and
ply.

Price is high but is the true cost any different? I heard somewhere that
in 1920 you could buy a gallon of gas for 2 dimes, and if you melted the
silver out of those two dimes today, you could still buy a gallon of gas
with them. Wood is probably no different.




Governments reduce their debt by printing funny money. The value of
money can only be increased by increasing productivity, not with a
printing press.


Well, taking money out of circulation works too. One might even argue
that the reduction in the value of home prices reduced purchasing power,
which may have increased the relative value of a dollar. No?

Perhaps that partly explains why the rate of inflation now is not higher
now than I anticipated it would be.

It isn't high? Things have doubled in price in the last few years. The
Gov. reports low inflation. Yet doubling is not low. Sorry I don't agree
with the inflation numbers. There's something wrong with them.



Bill

tiredofspam wrote:
Sorry, I don't agree.

There have been many decisions to water down brands to save money.

Yes - sometimes. But not all of the time, which is what is implied by "MBA
Think".


Without going into a long dissertation, the MBA takes the choice away,

Bull****. That has happened - but it is by no means the rule. I have
worked in too many environments where the MBA's were not the culprits but
the market dictated similar results.

they don't add to the choices.

It is not their job to do so. Blame those who should have been responsible
for that.

Since they are all taking the quality
away

Bull**** again. That is just pure bull****. It is so easy to blame MBA's
while we conveniently ignore the consumer desire for throw away, cheap
products...


and making it cheaper (not less expensive)

That has always been an objective of business

, what used to be
common place, is now no longer to be found.

So - just exactly what is it that used to be common place?

Good??? maybe for some
bottom lines. But not good in general. The downward spiral can not
be stopped.

Nice rhetoric, but what does that mean?


We are lacking talent, because we have made it so. Yes the consumer is
partly responsible,

Partly? How about "Mostlyh"?. Look how often you hear people here bitching
about price. Sure - they say they'd be willing to pay for quality, but
there is always a reason why that quality is not worth their opening their
pockets. The consumer is a very large part of this equation.


but the MBA is responsible

Bull**** - this is getting old. Do you really have any experience with
MBA's in a manufacturing environment, besides reading about such things as
GM 20 years ago?

, and so is corporate
America (kills free thinking and ingenuity) . So I think each gets a
third of the pie.


But - you emphasize the MBA as the culprit...

--

-Mike-

tiredofspam wrote:


You are so wrong about that. Corp America stifles free thinking and
ingenuity. The problem with Corp America is that anyone who wants to
bring change is told that's not the way we do it. Over and over I hear
this. If you can show them that it creates more problems doing it the
way they are doing it, they will stick to doing it the way they are
used to. It's safe that way. No managers will stick their necks out.
The culture that has been created is not about quality or change.. its
about ROI.. and that is where it all breaks down.


You either work in the wrong place, or you chose the wrong way to deliver
your message. I've been a rebel in my career for way to long to accept
anyone saying that corporate america does not allow for input. I've just
turned over way too many wagons in my career to listen to that crap.


--

-Mike-

On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 12:10:15 -0400, Jack wrote:
that same board should cost $1.39 in 2010, the last year they had, so
it's even better than that. And yes, the quality of the wood is the
same or better than what I got in 1978.

That's garbage Jack and you know it. The cheap wood in 1978 was
essentially straight grained and mostly knot free. The cheap crap
you're comparing to these days is full of knots and you can't find
straight grain if your life depended on it. *That's* what I mean when
I mention quality.

And, your example of Home Depot also falls short. Board width has
diminished at HD. Doesn't matter how much you're willing to pay for
it. If you wanted to make a table out of hardwood with HD wood, you'd
be joining a larger number of pieces of hard wood. I can remember 8"
hard wood availability at HD. You can't find it now because it costs
too damned much and isn't a customer demanded product because of that
high cost.

I used to buy hard wood oak veneered plywood at Home Depot. I stopped
doing that four or five years ago because I realized the veneered
plywood they were stocking had a thinner veneered oak layer on it. So
thin in fact, that you have to be extra careful you don't sand through
it. It effect, it's cheap and not worth the money being asked for it.
Slice it up anyway you want, HD exists on the cheap end of the
spectrum and has always done so. Just, that they do it even more now.

On 4/10/2012 11:07 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 4/10/2012 9:14 AM, Jack wrote:
On 4/9/2012 11:27 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 4/9/2012 9:14 AM, tiredofspam wrote:
Ryobi had been owned by John Deere during the 90s. John Deere stripped
the company of all quality, then sold the business. I had known someone
who worked for Ryobi back then. The complaint I heard from him was how
JD was just destroying the quality, and making them a useless brand.

MBAthink ... ramped up during WWII, took hold in the sixties, perverted
since to the ridiculous extreme of
bottom-line-fixation-damn-all-else-****-the-consumer-while-I-get-mine
mentality.

The same "MBAthink" that builds Ryobi, B&D, Grizzly etc also build
Laguna, Northfield, Festool etc. The consumer drives the markets, not
the MBA's you speak of.Lots of people are willing to spend 80 bucks on
a shop vac, very few will spend $550 for one. "MBAthink" says if I can
sell 10 million Festool vacs and make a ton of money, I'll do it. They
can't, so they don't. I'd say that is common sense, not MBA think but
it's not even common sense, it's how it is, or you go out of business.

I can buy a Ryobi planer, a Grizz planer, or a Northfield planer. It's
up to me, and all the MBAthinkers do is make the choices possible.

Bull****!

You telling me I can't buy these tools?

Jack, my friend, you miss the point, and concept expressed in the term,
entirely.

No, didn't miss anything. In fact, I totally understand what you are
trying to say, and have the same beefs myself when not thinking clearly.

Instead of continuing the innovation and engineering that built
_quality_ into a previously respected brand/product, the name of the
game, as played by the current "Ryobi" and MBAthink ilk, is:

~ Acquisition_ of a trusted _brand name_ previously known for innovation
and quality engineering.

~ Negating any previous "build quality" in the product by rigorous
_price point engineering_ .

~ Manufacturing same as cheaply as possible by use of cheap materials,
low cost, unskilled labor

~ Marketing, thru clever, deceptive advertising, to dupes, suckers, and
the ignorant unsuspecting, by relying solely upon the previous
reputation of the brand, and for whatever the market will bear.

All above, basic tenets of "MBAthink" as expressed. (IOW, you do not
have to have any knowledge whatsoever of a product in order to
successfully market it by simply buying the name and making it cheap ...
AKA "**** the quality, it's our bottom line, stupid" ... and we see what
kind of crap that has served up)

Sorry, but all markets are filled. Larry can buy his cheap stuff, I can
buy my mediocre stuff, and you and Leon can buy your overpriced, I mean,
top quality stuff. The largest market is the cheap stuff, so that is
what abounds, the smallest market is the high priced stuff, so it
doesn't abound. It's as simple as that.

To equate that methodology to products like Festool is ridiculous to an
extreme. That is an inarguable fact, and to say otherwise is totally
ignoring the reality of much of the current global market place.

That's psycho babble to me. Festool builds the most expensive shop vac
on earth, their MBAthinkers decided to go for the market that wants top
quality and wants everyone to know they paid unbelievable amounts to get
it, so they paint them ungodly green. Lincoln tried to do the same with
their pickup truck. Doesn't always work, perhaps if they painted them
all ungodly green?

And, in case you were somehow not paying attention, here is just one
small example of what the face of that concept looks like:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...87662054187346

I didn't miss it, but you may have missed a ton of posts of happy users
of HF nail guns that cost 1/10th and do all that the user needs. If you
are a finish carpenter spending 10 hours a day pinning hardwood molding
in houses, you don't want a $20 HF air nailer. If you are a hobbyist
cabinet maker that uses a pin nailer for tacking an occasional jig
together, even a $20 pin nailer is overkill. Both are for sale.

It's is the MBA guys running things that make all the stuff available,
the good the bad and the ugly. Bitching because they make cheap stuff
available is silly, they make top quality stuff as well. They get in
trouble I guess when the 3rd world, non-union countries make mid quality
tools at cheap prices, but the MBA guys will figure out how to get out
of the market, or join the market. The MBA's that fail end up selling
used cars, bartenders or insurance.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 4/10/2012 12:24 PM, tiredofspam wrote:


On 4/10/2012 12:10 PM, Jack wrote:
On 4/10/2012 10:29 AM, tiredofspam wrote:
Sorry, I don't agree.

You don't agree that you can buy a cheap Ryobi, a middle priced Grizz,
or a high priced Festool?

There have been many decisions to water down brands to save money.

Sure, it is a business decision. Few people want to spend $500 on a shop
vac, lots spend 80 bucks on a shop vac. All are available to everyone,
at least in the USA where "MBAthink" reigns.

Without going into a long dissertation, the MBA takes the choice away,
they don't add to the choices. Since they are all taking the quality
away and making it cheaper (not less expensive), what used to be common
place, is now no longer to be found. Good???

You could always buy quality and cheap products, at least in my lifetime.

maybe for some bottom
lines. But not good in general. The downward spiral can not be stopped.

I don't think you could have found a 15" planer with a spiral, segmented
cutter head at anywhere near the price of a Grizz, even if not adjusted
for government inflation, 40 years ago. You are very wrong about the
choices.

We are lacking talent, because we have made it so. Yes the consumer is
partly responsible, but the MBA is responsible, and so is corporate
America (kills free thinking and ingenuity) . So I think each gets a
third of the pie.

Corporate America pays big money for free thinking and ingenuity. that's
why you can buy a shop vac that works fine for $80 or $500, or a Tsaw
for $500 or $1500 or $3500, your choice.

You are so wrong about that.

Nope, I'm right about that.

Corp America stifles free thinking and
ingenuity. The problem with Corp America is that anyone who wants to
bring change is told that's not the way we do it. Over and over I hear
this.

Yet, changes are made, over, and over and over.

If you can show them that it creates more problems doing it the
way they are doing it, they will stick to doing it the way they are used
to.

And then they go out of business, or sell out to someone willing to do
it in a way the consumer wants it done.

It's safe that way. No managers will stick their necks out. The
culture that has been created is not about quality or change.. its about
ROI.. and that is where it all breaks down.

Would you like to compare the fence on my 1954 Unisaur compared to the
fence on the current unisaur? Would you like to compare the door
latches on a 1955 Ford to those on a 2012 Ford? Don't bother as you
will find Corporate America does just fine. They do it right, or go out
of business, or, get huge government handouts from corrupt socialist
governments (Solandra) and still go out of business.

When "corporate America is forced by government hacks to only sell $3500
Table saws, then free thinking and ingenuity will be killed, but not by
corporate America, but Big Government America, AKA, your socialist Big
Brother.


--
Jack
Got Change: Supply and Demand ====== Command and Control!
http://jbstein.com

On 4/10/2012 11:45 AM, Jack wrote:

It's is the MBA guys running things that make all the stuff available,
the good the bad and the ugly.

Such a ridiculous statement that it deserves to stand by itself for
posterity.

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

When I mean cheaper, I didn't mean for less expense. I meant garbage
cheaper. There is the perception that we can sell you junk and you will
like it.

Notice how many ways groceries are sold these days. Making a bigger
package and putting less weight in. That's MBA think. Unfortunately many
consumers just fall for it.


Later, I have to go to a lumber mill and pick up some Maple.

On 4/10/2012 12:35 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
tiredofspam wrote:
Sorry, I don't agree.

There have been many decisions to water down brands to save money.

Yes - sometimes. But not all of the time, which is what is implied by "MBA
Think".


Without going into a long dissertation, the MBA takes the choice away,

Bull****. That has happened - but it is by no means the rule. I have
worked in too many environments where the MBA's were not the culprits but
the market dictated similar results.

they don't add to the choices.

It is not their job to do so. Blame those who should have been responsible
for that.

Since they are all taking the quality
away

Bull**** again. That is just pure bull****. It is so easy to blame MBA's
while we conveniently ignore the consumer desire for throw away, cheap
products...


and making it cheaper (not less expensive)

That has always been an objective of business

, what used to be
common place, is now no longer to be found.

So - just exactly what is it that used to be common place?

Good??? maybe for some
bottom lines. But not good in general. The downward spiral can not
be stopped.

Nice rhetoric, but what does that mean?


We are lacking talent, because we have made it so. Yes the consumer is
partly responsible,

Partly? How about "Mostlyh"?. Look how often you hear people here bitching
about price. Sure - they say they'd be willing to pay for quality, but
there is always a reason why that quality is not worth their opening their
pockets. The consumer is a very large part of this equation.


but the MBA is responsible

Bull**** - this is getting old. Do you really have any experience with
MBA's in a manufacturing environment, besides reading about such things as
GM 20 years ago?

, and so is corporate
America (kills free thinking and ingenuity) . So I think each gets a
third of the pie.


But - you emphasize the MBA as the culprit...

On 4/10/2012 11:27 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:

Finally - a voice of reason on this whole MBA think topic! The ones who are
most upset with "MBA Think" are the ones who are not MBA's. One has to
wonder...

Welcome to the sound of a once powerful, now almost non-existent,
manufacturing sector as it takes its dying gasps, kept alive by tax
payer bailouts and government intervention ... the product of fools, and
damned fools.

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

Mike Marlow wrote:

Bull**** again. That is just pure bull****. It is so easy to blame
MBA's while we conveniently ignore the consumer desire for throw
away, cheap products...

You are hereby awarded a dadiOH "BINGO".

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

On 4/10/2012 12:33 PM, tiredofspam wrote:
Jack, have you bought from local mills, or guys that do their own wood.

I buy from guys that are not your traditional lumber yards.
More like mills.

Some advertise on the side of the road... hardwood for sale.
at first when I moved here I thought these guys were selling firewood.
Then it dawned on me it doesn't say firewood.

That's what I'm looking for, but not the specialty guys that charge an
arm and a leg.

Stop going to the HD for hardwood. Awful stuff.

Never bought hardwood from HD, but I looked at it.

And no it's not high quality.

Yes, at my HD it is high quality, no knots, no twist, select #1 at
select #1 prices, plus.

High Quality is straight and not twisted. These HD crap are
already surfaced on four sides. How can you clean them up if they are
twisted like pretzels.

They are not twisted, they don't need cleaned up. Very good stuff.

So I have never bought from a lumber or HD quality wood. I have seen it
in old pieces of furniture that I have refinished.. tight growth rings.
Beautiful looks. What I buy from HD is ply or 2x4. But even that I am
reluctant too lately. All the ply I got from HD twisted like a pretzel.
How stable is a piece of ply that has a huge bow in it... Pretty stable.
I can't get it flat again.

The last sheet of ply I bought from HD was super good. I was looking
for some junk 3/4" ply for the bottom of my lumber rack. They had junk
at $18 a sheet, but they also had a big stack of good stuff on sale for
$23. One look and I knew $5 more was well worth it. I felt guilty
using that quality of wood for the bottom of my lumber rack, but forced
myself to do it:-) They didn't have of that again, that I saw.

I have gotten some decent wood from these small mills. So I'll
respectfully disagree.

Yes, I'm looking for one now. I was on vacation in Lake George, NY and
the place we stayed at had a small specialty lumber yard right next
door. They had good stuff at decent prices, and I was going to load up
my truck but got pressed for time and passed. It was the most exciting
part of the vacation:-) Don't know where on earth they got the wood, as
the whole damn place is a national park or something and not allowed to
cut trees, dead or alive? I think if a chainsaw was heard, a tree
hugging swat team would swoop down and shoot the sorry sucker.

--
Jack
Got Change: Supply and Demand ====== Command and Control!
http://jbstein.com

On 4/10/2012 11:24 AM, tiredofspam wrote:
On 4/10/2012 12:10 PM, Jack wrote:
....

Corporate America pays big money for free thinking and ingenuity. that's
why you can buy a shop vac that works fine for $80 or $500, or a Tsaw
for $500 or $1500 or $3500, your choice.

You are so wrong about that. Corp America stifles free thinking and
ingenuity. The problem with Corp America is that anyone who wants to
bring change is told that's not the way we do it. Over and over I hear
this. If you can show them that it creates more problems doing it the
way they are doing it, they will stick to doing it the way they are used
to. It's safe that way. No managers will stick their necks out. The
culture that has been created is not about quality or change.. its about
ROI.. and that is where it all breaks down.
....

Absolute nonsense and bullhockey.

The best performance review I ever got included the phrase "He
identified (and solved) a problem we didn't know we had"

--

tiredofspam wrote:
When I mean cheaper, I didn't mean for less expense. I meant garbage
cheaper. There is the perception that we can sell you junk and you
will like it.

Notice how many ways groceries are sold these days. Making a bigger
package and putting less weight in. That's MBA think. Unfortunately
many consumers just fall for it.


Too many people who do not understand how things work simply throw out the
phrase "MBA think". That term has lost any real meaning. Not every
corporate move is a reflection of General Motors...




--

-Mike-

Swingman wrote:
On 4/10/2012 11:27 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:

Finally - a voice of reason on this whole MBA think topic! The ones
who are most upset with "MBA Think" are the ones who are not MBA's. One
has to wonder...

Welcome to the sound of a once powerful, now almost non-existent,
manufacturing sector as it takes its dying gasps, kept alive by tax
payer bailouts and government intervention ... the product of fools,
and damned fools.

Then maybe we should call it Profit-think, or CEO-think. The MBA thing had
a valid definition back when GM was making stupid decisions based on a penny
savings per car, but it does not reflect the most of the business world
today. Profit is profit and that has always been the primary motive of any
business - long before the GM MBA stuff. To put all profit oriented
thoughts into some bucket called MBA think is very short sighted. The
alternative is to assume that business should be happy to run at a loss?

--

-Mike-

On 4/10/2012 11:45 AM, Jack wrote:
On 4/10/2012 11:07 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 4/10/2012 9:14 AM, Jack wrote:
On 4/9/2012 11:27 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 4/9/2012 9:14 AM, tiredofspam wrote:
Ryobi had been owned by John Deere during the 90s. John Deere stripped
the company of all quality, then sold the business. I had known
someone
who worked for Ryobi back then. The complaint I heard from him was how
JD was just destroying the quality, and making them a useless brand.

MBAthink ... ramped up during WWII, took hold in the sixties, perverted
since to the ridiculous extreme of
bottom-line-fixation-damn-all-else-****-the-consumer-while-I-get-mine
mentality.

The same "MBAthink" that builds Ryobi, B&D, Grizzly etc also build
Laguna, Northfield, Festool etc. The consumer drives the markets, not
the MBA's you speak of.Lots of people are willing to spend 80 bucks on
a shop vac, very few will spend $550 for one. "MBAthink" says if I can
sell 10 million Festool vacs and make a ton of money, I'll do it. They
can't, so they don't. I'd say that is common sense, not MBA think but
it's not even common sense, it's how it is, or you go out of business.

I can buy a Ryobi planer, a Grizz planer, or a Northfield planer. It's
up to me, and all the MBAthinkers do is make the choices possible.

Bull****!

You telling me I can't buy these tools?

Jack, my friend, you miss the point, and concept expressed in the term,
entirely.

No, didn't miss anything. In fact, I totally understand what you are
trying to say, and have the same beefs myself when not thinking clearly.

Instead of continuing the innovation and engineering that built
_quality_ into a previously respected brand/product, the name of the
game, as played by the current "Ryobi" and MBAthink ilk, is:

~ Acquisition_ of a trusted _brand name_ previously known for innovation
and quality engineering.

~ Negating any previous "build quality" in the product by rigorous
_price point engineering_ .

~ Manufacturing same as cheaply as possible by use of cheap materials,
low cost, unskilled labor

~ Marketing, thru clever, deceptive advertising, to dupes, suckers, and
the ignorant unsuspecting, by relying solely upon the previous
reputation of the brand, and for whatever the market will bear.

All above, basic tenets of "MBAthink" as expressed. (IOW, you do not
have to have any knowledge whatsoever of a product in order to
successfully market it by simply buying the name and making it cheap ...
AKA "**** the quality, it's our bottom line, stupid" ... and we see what
kind of crap that has served up)

Sorry, but all markets are filled. Larry can buy his cheap stuff, I can
buy my mediocre stuff, and you and Leon can buy your overpriced, I mean,
top quality stuff. The largest market is the cheap stuff, so that is
what abounds, the smallest market is the high priced stuff, so it
doesn't abound. It's as simple as that.

Well since you have mention me I will make a comment. Until you have
actually purchased and used all levels of and including quality tools
and equipment you will never ever understand how higher quality is the
better choice every time. You may now put your head back in the sand.

On 4/10/2012 12:34 PM, tiredofspam wrote:

It isn't high? Things have doubled in price in the last few years. The
Gov. reports low inflation. Yet doubling is not low. Sorry I don't agree
with the inflation numbers. There's something wrong with them.

Yes, some things have increased alot. I don't have a convenient
"marketbasket" to compare. It would be interesting to assemble one.

Jack wrote:
On 4/10/2012 12:33 PM, tiredofspam wrote:


High Quality is straight and not twisted. These HD crap are
already surfaced on four sides. How can you clean them up if they are
twisted like pretzels.


I have bought hardwood from Home Depot and I worked their for 4 1/2 years.
In all of my experiences, I never saw a piece of hardwood twisted like a
pretzel. I never even saw a truly bad piece of hardwood. I wonder why you
feel the need to "clean up" a piece of S4S in the first place? I have to
ask if the poster of this statement has really ever seen that - or how many
times? Did you find one piece that was junk? I find it hard to believe
that you have consistently found that to be the case. This stuff is
purchased at the corporate contract level and each store receives pretty
much the same stuff, so it is not likely that any one store is selling some
inferior product. This statement receives my esteemed Bull**** award.


They are not twisted, they don't need cleaned up. Very good stuff.

Correct.


All the ply I got from HD twisted
like a pretzel. How stable is a piece of ply that has a huge bow in
it... Pretty stable. I can't get it flat again.


I think I would check into my shop wood storage practices if I were you. It
seems everything you buy twists up like a pretzel. How is it that this wood
does not twist up in their stores, but it does once you get it home? The
stores are not terribly climate controlled so whatever you see on the floor
is pretty much what you will have when you get it home. Pretzels?



--

-Mike-

On 4/10/2012 12:43 PM, Dave wrote:
On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 12:10:15 -0400, wrote:
that same board should cost $1.39 in 2010, the last year they had, so
it's even better than that. And yes, the quality of the wood is the
same or better than what I got in 1978.

That's garbage Jack and you know it. The cheap wood in 1978 was
essentially straight grained and mostly knot free.

You are a lying sack of ****.

How's that?

I don't lie, ever, period. The lumber at my HD is as good or better
than the same grade lumber sold around here in 1970's. The prices I
looked up, I didn't guess. I guess you need to take my word on the
quality, but trust me, I have no reason to lie, and wouldn't if I did.

The cheap crap
you're comparing to these days is full of knots and you can't find
straight grain if your life depended on it. *That's* what I mean when
I mention quality.

I mentioned #2 grade, which has small knots. I always had to look
through the wood stacks when I bought lumber, just as I do now. Then,
as now, they always manage to get some really good stuff, and some
really bad stuff mixed in the stacks of lumber, regardless of the
grading. HD does not sell #1 select, and I never, or almost never
bought that anyway, it is rare to find, and commercial furniture
builders scoop most of it up, so it was always expensive, and only
carried at large or specialty lumber yards.

And, your example of Home Depot also falls short. Board width has
diminished at HD.

That's garbage Dave, as long as I've been buying wood, the width of
lumber has been the same. A 2x6 is 5.5 inches, same as it was then. A
1x8 is 7 1/4, same as it was then. You don't know what your talking
about, or your HD is ripping you off.

Doesn't matter how much you're willing to pay for
it. If you wanted to make a table out of hardwood with HD wood, you'd
be joining a larger number of pieces of hard wood. I can remember 8"
hard wood availability at HD. You can't find it now because it costs
too damned much and isn't a customer demanded product because of that
high cost.

Yes, super expensive at HD, but they only sell top quality Oak at my HD.
I know they have 1x6, not sure about 1x8. You shouldn't use bigger than
1x6 for table top glue ups anyway, unless it's quarter sawn, which
nobody can afford, unless you are a Texan:-)

I used to buy hard wood oak veneered plywood at Home Depot. I stopped
doing that four or five years ago because I realized the veneered
plywood they were stocking had a thinner veneered oak layer on it. So
thin in fact, that you have to be extra careful you don't sand through
it. It effect, it's cheap and not worth the money being asked for it.
Slice it up anyway you want, HD exists on the cheap end of the
spectrum and has always done so. Just, that they do it even more now.

Well yeah, HD is not selling Festool stuff. But at *my* HD they sell
high quality OAK, and they sell very good #2 white wood (pine). I never
bought oak veneer ply from them, but my guess is it is the same or
better than I would get at Allegheny Plywood, a plywood place I used to
by oak veneered ply when I was doing that stuff. They had some crappy
stuff there then, probably same as now, but haven't bought any recently.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 4/10/2012 1:04 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 4/10/2012 11:45 AM, Jack wrote:

It's is the MBA guys running things that make all the stuff available,
the good the bad and the ugly.

Such a ridiculous statement that it deserves to stand by itself for
posterity.

No more ridiculous than your constant whining about everything being the
fault of "MBAthink"

You actually think Festool doesn't have a few MBAthinkers running around
figuring out how to pry large sums of cash out of the pockets of Texans?

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

Jack wrote in :

*snip*

The last sheet of ply I bought from HD was super good. I was looking
for some junk 3/4" ply for the bottom of my lumber rack. They had junk
at $18 a sheet, but they also had a big stack of good stuff on sale for
$23. One look and I knew $5 more was well worth it. I felt guilty
using that quality of wood for the bottom of my lumber rack, but forced
myself to do it:-) They didn't have of that again, that I saw.


*snip*

Every once in a while they'll buy some good plywood and sell it for an
excellent price. It's worth a look when you're in the store. If your HD
has a cull cart, that's worth a look as well. (Just don't pick over the
cart at my local store until I've had a chance! :-))

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

Pointing up at the above answers:

Well, I guess this answers the question of where to buy
commercial jointers and planers

"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
...
Jack wrote:

High Quality is straight and not twisted. These HD crap are
already surfaced on four sides. How can you clean them up if they are
twisted like pretzels.


They are not twisted, they don't need cleaned up. Very good stuff.

Maybe it's a regional thing, but the red oak, maple, and poplar I've
examined in the store, when in a pinch to finish a project, hasn't been very
good given the premimum prices. Cupped and crocked to various degrees and
some twisted. Short of taking it down a 1/16-1/8" in thickness to straighten
it out it wouldn't be useable for furniture... trim/casing where you are
nailing it down yes, furniture no. It might have been "perfect" leaving the
mill but after experiencing the environment it isn't.


All the ply I got from HD twisted
like a pretzel. How stable is a piece of ply that has a huge bow in
it... Pretty stable. I can't get it flat again.


I think I would check into my shop wood storage practices if I were you.
It seems everything you buy twists up like a pretzel. How is it that this
wood does not twist up in their stores, but it does once you get it home?
The stores are not terribly climate controlled so whatever you see on the
floor is pretty much what you will have when you get it home. Pretzels?

I find that you have to let the moisture equalize on both sides of the
sheets for a few days before they come close to straight and flat. Even in
the store the top sheet or two is often not flat due to the moisture
difference across sides. The last couple sheets of cabinet grade ply I
grabbed at HD took about a week to settle down in my "winter dry" shop.
Before they settled down it would have been very difficult to work with as
the sheets wouldn't lay flat on the table saw, shaper, or any other surface.
The source doesn't seem to matter, it's more an issue of pulling sheets from
standard shipping units that trap moisture and gases on one hand and keep
moisture out on the other.

John