"Pat Barber" wrote in message
...
Pointing up at the above answers:

Well, I guess this answers the question of where to buy
commercial jointers and planers

That easy... A LOT of nice stuff has been coming through on Craigs List the
past few years. ;~)

On 4/10/2012 1:01 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:

To put all profit oriented
thoughts into some bucket called MBA think is very short sighted.

And who do you know who did that? Or are you just following Jack's
erroneous assumption instead of reading for yourself?

(Hint: You might want to check out the _context_ of my first reply)

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 14:23:53 -0400, Jack wrote:
I don't lie, ever, period. The lumber at my HD is as good or better
than the same grade lumber sold around here in 1970's. The prices I
looked up, I didn't guess. I guess you need to take my word on the
quality, but trust me, I have no reason to lie, and wouldn't if I did.

And you're calling me a lying sack of ****? Over and over, you seem to
be the one arguing one side of the fence while everybody else is on
the other side. Why is that? I can only suppose it's a desperate need
for attention. Why else would you be right and everybody else be
wrong?

On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 14:24:10 -0400, Jack wrote:
You actually think Festool doesn't have a few MBAthinkers running around
figuring out how to pry large sums of cash out of the pockets of Texans?

In that case, they must be up here in Canukistan too, since Festool
inhabits many tool stores up here. Even a company with a top notch
reputation like Lee Valley Tools sells Festool. If Festool was as
disreputable as you seem to think, I doubt Lee Valley Tools would be
selling their products. Maybe one day LV will turn into a department
store of cheap tools, but it most surely won't be in my lifetime.

Swingman wrote:
On 4/10/2012 1:01 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:

To put all profit oriented
thoughts into some bucket called MBA think is very short sighted.

And who do you know who did that? Or are you just following Jack's
erroneous assumption instead of reading for yourself?

(Hint: You might want to check out the _context_ of my first reply)

Maybe just my reaction but it seems that the phrase MBA-think has sort of
taken over here as the catch-all phrase. It's not so much that anyone
person did so, as it is the preponderance of the use of that term as the
blame for everything.

--

-Mike-

In the MBAs world, you are judged by the here and now. No foresight into
the future. Little investment in the future. Most all MBA's are NOW
based. And sometimes you have to realize that the investment in quality
will take time to accrue. And people will take notice. Is everything
going to be at the Walmart, and HD level? Because that is where we are
heading if you say it's what the market will bear or what the market
wants. That's where the most people are. But is that necessary to be
profitable?

What if some companies say ... hey lets produce a quality product, not a
cheap POC. And what if the CEO was willing to accept that market
share. Would that be right? Because with today's thinking everyone
thinks you need to get bigger or you'll be out of business. What if you
just wanted to be profitable and put out a good product? Years ago you
didn't need to grow at a phenomenal rate. Years ago each town looked
different. And when I traveled the country by motorcycle each one not
only looked different, but they really were. Now they are all the same.
The same malls, the same stores. The same big box stores. In many towns
the original town is a ghost town. The big stores moved to the outskirts
of towns. It's ugly the blight they caused in many towns. Some town are
coming back as restaurant havens. But the reality is that this was not
good for America. Most of these jobs are low paying jobs, and most of
the goods come from outside the country.

Lets take a small example. Something we can all talk about.

Stanley tools.

So do you think Stanley went in the right direction?
Do you think the steering of Stanley made it a better company?
Aside from BOSTICH, I think of the Stanley brand as a lost brand. It is
useless. It got away from what it did well.

Example, the lever lock that many of you miss. Where is it? It's been
replaced by crap. The planes that they used to produce. Replaced by
crap. The levels that they used to produce. Crap...

Oh yea it was the market that did that... Hell no. It wasn't the
consumer either. It was the people in the corp world looking to reduce
cost. This reduction of cost caused a reduction in quality. Since the
masses really had no other choice, and brand loyalty being what it is
people kept buy the crap, but complained about the lack of quality. But
what choice did they have. For a long time none.

Lie Nielsen, Lee Valley to the rescue.

Lets talk about Irwin buying Marples. take a look at the Marples
chisels. They are poorly made by comparison to yesteryears. Quality goes
as the MBA thinks we can do a little less and still retain mkt share.


Ok off my rant, I have to carry some wood in.



On 4/10/2012 2:01 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Swingman wrote:
On 4/10/2012 11:27 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:

Finally - a voice of reason on this whole MBA think topic! The ones
who are most upset with "MBA Think" are the ones who are not MBA's. One
has to wonder...

Welcome to the sound of a once powerful, now almost non-existent,
manufacturing sector as it takes its dying gasps, kept alive by tax
payer bailouts and government intervention ... the product of fools,
and damned fools.

Then maybe we should call it Profit-think, or CEO-think. The MBA thing had
a valid definition back when GM was making stupid decisions based on a penny
savings per car, but it does not reflect the most of the business world
today. Profit is profit and that has always been the primary motive of any
business - long before the GM MBA stuff. To put all profit oriented
thoughts into some bucket called MBA think is very short sighted. The
alternative is to assume that business should be happy to run at a loss?

If you are ever at Lake George again consider renting an island.
You have to reserve it early. But camping on those islands is great.
The breeze is refreshing. The water clear. The fishing unbeleavable. My
BIL and I went out at 5am and we were just trolling, and he caught a
lake trout without a down rigger. It was unbelievable watching him take
this fish in. The dance on the water was outstanding.

They have bass by the buckets. The kids (all young then) had a blast.

They have islands with 1,2,3 ... 120 camping spots. So you can pick
yours out. We liked the north east side of the lake for camping.


On 4/10/2012 1:46 PM, Jack wrote:

Yes, I'm looking for one now. I was on vacation in Lake George, NY and
the place we stayed at had a small specialty lumber yard right next
door. They had good stuff at decent prices, and I was going to load up
my truck but got pressed for time and passed. It was the most exciting
part of the vacation:-) Don't know where on earth they got the wood, as
the whole damn place is a national park or something and not allowed to
cut trees, dead or alive? I think if a chainsaw was heard, a tree
hugging swat team would swoop down and shoot the sorry sucker.

I don't know what market you are in, but here in NJ the HD hardwood is
awful. Bowed, wany... Do we get the awful ****. Probably.

Maybe in your market you are getting better stuff. But here when I say
pretzel, I mean it's too bent, or twisted to use. And for the price you
pay (linear foot), you have to do too much work to it. So why would I
need to cleanup a s4s piece. Well if it were straight and not twisted I
wouldn't have to. I am not impressed with their wood.

As far as the ply. I had bought 7 sheets of maple cab ply a few years
ago , when I got it home it just bowed. I had only walked it down the
stairs and was amazed at how it bowed. I have not been able to
straighten it out. I should have returned it. I recently bought cab
grade ply and it too curled.

I have a rack for ply, and it keeps it straight up, and the rack is
true. But I have to get it to the rack.. and in both cases it curled
before I made it to the rack. Not too mention the major voids in the cab
ply that I got. Or major fills that I didn't notice. Whatever that vinyl
like fill is that they use.

On 4/10/2012 2:14 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Jack wrote:
On 4/10/2012 12:33 PM, tiredofspam wrote:


High Quality is straight and not twisted. These HD crap are
already surfaced on four sides. How can you clean them up if they are
twisted like pretzels.


I have bought hardwood from Home Depot and I worked their for 4 1/2 years.
In all of my experiences, I never saw a piece of hardwood twisted like a
pretzel. I never even saw a truly bad piece of hardwood. I wonder why you
feel the need to "clean up" a piece of S4S in the first place? I have to
ask if the poster of this statement has really ever seen that - or how many
times? Did you find one piece that was junk? I find it hard to believe
that you have consistently found that to be the case. This stuff is
purchased at the corporate contract level and each store receives pretty
much the same stuff, so it is not likely that any one store is selling some
inferior product. This statement receives my esteemed Bull**** award.


They are not twisted, they don't need cleaned up. Very good stuff.

Correct.


All the ply I got from HD twisted
like a pretzel. How stable is a piece of ply that has a huge bow in
it... Pretty stable. I can't get it flat again.


I think I would check into my shop wood storage practices if I were you. It
seems everything you buy twists up like a pretzel. How is it that this wood
does not twist up in their stores, but it does once you get it home? The
stores are not terribly climate controlled so whatever you see on the floor
is pretty much what you will have when you get it home. Pretzels?

Agreed, and at my local lumber yard, they restack the ply on edge, which
I believe is the reason I don't have that problem with their stuff
(since there is room for air), but do with the HD. I have not been able
to ever get the bow out of the HD stuff. It's just set.

On 4/10/2012 3:11 PM, John Grossbohlin wrote:

"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
...
Jack wrote:

High Quality is straight and not twisted. These HD crap are
already surfaced on four sides. How can you clean them up if they are
twisted like pretzels.


They are not twisted, they don't need cleaned up. Very good stuff.

Maybe it's a regional thing, but the red oak, maple, and poplar I've
examined in the store, when in a pinch to finish a project, hasn't been
very good given the premimum prices. Cupped and crocked to various
degrees and some twisted. Short of taking it down a 1/16-1/8" in
thickness to straighten it out it wouldn't be useable for furniture...
trim/casing where you are nailing it down yes, furniture no. It might
have been "perfect" leaving the mill but after experiencing the
environment it isn't.


All the ply I got from HD twisted
like a pretzel. How stable is a piece of ply that has a huge bow in
it... Pretty stable. I can't get it flat again.


I think I would check into my shop wood storage practices if I were
you. It seems everything you buy twists up like a pretzel. How is it
that this wood does not twist up in their stores, but it does once you
get it home? The stores are not terribly climate controlled so
whatever you see on the floor is pretty much what you will have when
you get it home. Pretzels?

I find that you have to let the moisture equalize on both sides of the
sheets for a few days before they come close to straight and flat. Even
in the store the top sheet or two is often not flat due to the moisture
difference across sides. The last couple sheets of cabinet grade ply I
grabbed at HD took about a week to settle down in my "winter dry" shop.
Before they settled down it would have been very difficult to work with
as the sheets wouldn't lay flat on the table saw, shaper, or any other
surface. The source doesn't seem to matter, it's more an issue of
pulling sheets from standard shipping units that trap moisture and gases
on one hand and keep moisture out on the other.

John

That I always do, for 51cents a piece in the cull cart I will get the
bargain.

On 4/10/2012 2:27 PM, Puckdropper wrote:
wrote in :

*snip*

The last sheet of ply I bought from HD was super good. I was looking
for some junk 3/4" ply for the bottom of my lumber rack. They had junk
at $18 a sheet, but they also had a big stack of good stuff on sale for
$23. One look and I knew $5 more was well worth it. I felt guilty
using that quality of wood for the bottom of my lumber rack, but forced
myself to do it:-) They didn't have of that again, that I saw.


*snip*

Every once in a while they'll buy some good plywood and sell it for an
excellent price. It's worth a look when you're in the store. If your HD
has a cull cart, that's worth a look as well. (Just don't pick over the
cart at my local store until I've had a chance! :-))

Puckdropper

On 4/10/2012 3:19 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Swingman wrote:
On 4/10/2012 1:01 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:

To put all profit oriented
thoughts into some bucket called MBA think is very short sighted.

And who do you know who did that? Or are you just following Jack's
erroneous assumption instead of reading for yourself?

(Hint: You might want to check out the _context_ of my first reply)

Maybe just my reaction but it seems that the phrase MBA-think has sort of
taken over here as the catch-all phrase. It's not so much that anyone
person did so, as it is the preponderance of the use of that term as the
blame for everything.

IIRC, the discussion was specifically about companies, once known for
quality products, to which the term arguably applies: starting with
Ryobi, but equally applicable to The Rockwell's, The Delta's, The
Stanley's, The Porter Cables, The Craftsman tools, et al.

ALL to whom the following applies:

~ Acquisition_ of a trusted _brand name_ previously known for innovation
and quality engineering.

~ Negating any previous "build quality" in the product by rigorous
_price point engineering_ .

~ Manufacturing same product as cheaply as possible by use of cheap
materials, and low cost, unskilled labor.

~ Marketing, thru clever, deceptive advertising to the ignorant
unsuspecting by relying solely upon the previous reputation of the brand
for a quality which no longer exists, and for whatever the market will bear.


Jack either missed the point ... any argument that the above has NOT
happened to each of the listed companies, plus many more, is denying
reality ... or Jack is in denial.

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

I recommend that all you MBAs upset with the connotation of terms like
"MBA-think" just get over it and get on with life, like lawyers did.


--
There is always an easy solution to every human problem -- neat,
plausible, and wrong." (H L Mencken)

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar. org

In article , Jack wrote:
On 4/8/2012 3:04 PM, tiredofspam wrote:
No doubt that you are right about the lumber.
Even man made lumber (ply) is diminishing in quality.

And the price is getting up there for all, hardwoods, softwoods, and ply.

Price is high but is the true cost any different? I heard somewhere
that in 1920 you could buy a gallon of gas for 2 dimes, and if you
melted the silver out of those two dimes today, you could still buy a
gallon of gas with them. Wood is probably no different.

Governments reduce their debt by printing funny money. The value of
money can only be increased by increasing productivity, not with a
printing press.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

Hel, you could but a gallon of gas for 20 cents in my lifetime, and I'm
under 60 (barely)


--
There is always an easy solution to every human problem -- neat,
plausible, and wrong." (H L Mencken)

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar. org

"Larry W" wrote:

Hel, you could but a gallon of gas for 20 cents in my lifetime, and
I'm
under 60 (barely)
------------------------------------
Gas for just less than $0.20/gal was quite common in metro Detroit in
the late '50s.

Known as "gas wars".


Lew

tiredofspam wrote:
Sorry, I don't agree.

There have been many decisions to water down brands to save money.
Without going into a long dissertation, the MBA takes the choice away,
they don't add to the choices. Since they are all taking the quality
away and making it cheaper (not less expensive), what used to be common
place, is now no longer to be found. Good??? maybe for some bottom
lines. But not good in general. The downward spiral can not be stopped.

We are lacking talent, because we have made it so. Yes the consumer is
partly responsible, but the MBA is responsible, and so is corporate
America (kills free thinking and ingenuity) . So I think each gets a
third of the pie.

As it was explained to me, by someone much older than me, the VIPs in
the big corporations don't have much incentive to "rock-the-boat" (take
chances). I'm thinking of Ford and GM especially. But the likes of
Microsoft (and Cisco?) too. My point is that it's not just the MBA
"save a dime" mentality, but the corporate (compensation)
structure--which is to blame. It's something like, "I'll just take my
bonuses, retire nicely, and get outta here (without rocking the boat)".

Bill




On 4/10/2012 10:14 AM, Jack wrote:
On 4/9/2012 11:27 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 4/9/2012 9:14 AM, tiredofspam wrote:
Ryobi had been owned by John Deere during the 90s. John Deere stripped
the company of all quality, then sold the business. I had known someone
who worked for Ryobi back then. The complaint I heard from him was how
JD was just destroying the quality, and making them a useless brand.

MBAthink ... ramped up during WWII, took hold in the sixties, perverted
since to the ridiculous extreme of
bottom-line-fixation-damn-all-else-****-the-consumer-while-I-get-mine
mentality.

The same "MBAthink" that builds Ryobi, B&D, Grizzly etc also build
Laguna, Northfield, Festool etc. The consumer drives the markets, not
the MBA's you speak of. Lots of people are willing to spend 80 bucks on
a shop vac, very few will spend $550 for one. "MBAthink" says if I can
sell 10 million Festool vacs and make a ton of money, I'll do it. They
can't, so they don't. I'd say that is common sense, not MBA think but
it's not even common sense, it's how it is, or you go out of business.

I can buy a Ryobi planer, a Grizz planer, or a Northfield planer. It's
up to me, and all the MBAthinkers do is make the choices possible.

Bill wrote:


As it was explained to me, by someone much older than me, the VIPs in
the big corporations don't have much incentive to "rock-the-boat"
(take chances). I'm thinking of Ford and GM especially. But the
likes of Microsoft (and Cisco?) too. My point is that it's not
just the MBA "save a dime" mentality, but the corporate (compensation)
structure--which is to blame. It's something like, "I'll just take my
bonuses, retire nicely, and get outta here (without rocking the
boat)".

In some industries, that is probably quite true, and in others it would be
the kiss of death. The High Tech sector in particular, is not predominately
that way. The pace of change and the competition force a much more dynamic
lifestyle than that. VP's riding out retirement often do not make it that
far in those arenas. Especially if they are in the product chain (as
opposed to back office guys).

--

-Mike-

Lew Hodgett wrote:
"Larry W" wrote:

Hel, you could but a gallon of gas for 20 cents in my lifetime, and
I'm
under 60 (barely)
------------------------------------
Gas for just less than $0.20/gal was quite common in metro Detroit in
the late '50s.

Known as "gas wars".

So that "point 9" was worth 5%! I sort of remember 32.9/gal in metro
Detroit, but I was too young to drive. My first car. a '69 LeSabre with
its 26 gallon tank remembered it though. Even in 1981, I could
nullify a fifty dollar bill with one tank. : )





Lew

On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 12:04:00 -0500, Swingman wrote:

On 4/10/2012 11:45 AM, Jack wrote:

It's is the MBA guys running things that make all the stuff available,
the good the bad and the ugly.

Such a ridiculous statement that it deserves to stand by itself for
posterity.

In the corner, with the hat on.

--
Resolve to be thyself: and know, that he who finds himself, loses his misery.
-- Matthew Arnold

On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 11:58:38 -0700, Pat Barber
wrote:

Pointing up at the above answers:

Well, I guess this answers the question of where to buy
commercial jointers and planers

You're || -that- close, Pat!

The real answer is either 42 or Amazon/eBay/HD/HFT, but only after
you've checked http://www.toolseeker.com/ to get a good idea.

--
Resolve to be thyself: and know, that he who finds himself, loses his misery.
-- Matthew Arnold

"Bill" wrote in message
...
tiredofspam wrote:
Sorry, I don't agree.

There have been many decisions to water down brands to save money.
Without going into a long dissertation, the MBA takes the choice away,
they don't add to the choices. Since they are all taking the quality
away and making it cheaper (not less expensive), what used to be common
place, is now no longer to be found. Good??? maybe for some bottom
lines. But not good in general. The downward spiral can not be stopped.

We are lacking talent, because we have made it so. Yes the consumer is
partly responsible, but the MBA is responsible, and so is corporate
America (kills free thinking and ingenuity) . So I think each gets a
third of the pie.

As it was explained to me, by someone much older than me, the VIPs in the
big corporations don't have much incentive to "rock-the-boat" (take
chances). I'm thinking of Ford and GM especially. But the likes of
Microsoft (and Cisco?) too. My point is that it's not just the MBA
"save a dime" mentality, but the corporate (compensation) structure--which
is to blame. It's something like, "I'll just take my bonuses, retire
nicely, and get outta here (without rocking the boat)".

There are also issues of "the garbage can model of problem solving" where
solutions that worked in the past are pulled out of the "garbage can" and
applied again. Net result is sometimes they will work again but it may be
just as likely mistakes are made...
Organizations don't learn well and they loose a lot of talent as a result as
people give up and move on...

Group Think is a huge issue too... organizations often think they are better
than others, smarter than the market, etc. As a result they miss threats and
opportunities.

"Johnny Appleseed" consultants are a problem too. They take their solutions
and plant them in a multitude of organizations. I've been unimpressed with
the majority of those I've encountered in that they typically don't bring
any knowledge with them that the organization doesn't already possess.
However, politically they may be able to effect change in ways that have not
been allowed to employees. For example management may need a nameless
somebody to blame, or the consultants come in under "halo affect," i.e.,
because they are consultants they must be smart. I recall one period of
time where we were fond of saying to consultants that "Yellow Badges mean
you're smart. " We don't think they ever figured out that all non-employee
contractors wore yellow badges... regardless of their role.

Another issue that cannot be ignored is that executives move around and
apply their "solutions" to multiple organizations.... both failures and
successes. I've experienced that several times (industries tend to be
incestuous when it comes to the professional and upper management levels).

I've seen multitudes of political failures in organizations... competing
agendas and infighting that leads to executives being walked out. It doesn't
mean the victor was right or better, it just means they won the political
battle.

Much of what I've read here about tools seems to be more along the lines of
price point decisions and value engineering decisions. The former are
decisions about what market you want to sell in....e.g., casual
homeowner/woodworker, serious homeowner/woodworker, professional woodworker,
manufacturing facilities. Within a price point/market there are
expectations... Delta used to sell into all those markets... now? Good
question given the sale/refocus. The later count on everything going right,
i.e., the design is right, the materials are really to spec, the machines
are set up correctly, the workers are given the right incentives, training,
authority, and responsibility to do the job well. A well known example is
"1/2" plywood" that measures 15/32" or 7/16" that meets 1/2" plywood
"performance standards?" A rhetorical question: Do we care if it's a 1/2"
thick or that it meets "1/2" plywood performance standards?

Anyhow.... I've been reading and taking it all in.... no real answers. I
know successful, insightful, and brilliant people who have no formal
education beyond high school (in one case not even that) who started and
grew businesses and made upper middle class/upper class incomes. I also know
people with masters degrees who are idiots in "the real world" (look up
idiot in the dictionary and a photo of one person in particular is there as
an example). Those with doctoral degrees (PhD, MD, JD, DO, OD, etc.) whom I
know are all over the map... some don't function well with tangibles, some
do. Some are brilliant in their field of study and useless outside of it...

It takes all kinds and a strong argument could be made that performance is a
random variable and leadership has little to do with it (look at politics
for easy examples!). I'd like to think, however, that leadership has at
least some impact. I recently stumbled across a TV show "Undercover Boss"
and I cannot help but think those people are successful and will continue to
be successful because they are relatively humble and understand they may not
know everything.... the antithesis of many with whom I've worked.

Enough of this! LOL

John

On 4/10/2012 1:24 PM, Jack wrote:
On 4/10/2012 1:04 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 4/10/2012 11:45 AM, Jack wrote:

It's is the MBA guys running things that make all the stuff available,
the good the bad and the ugly.

Such a ridiculous statement that it deserves to stand by itself for
posterity.

No more ridiculous than your constant whining about everything being the
fault of "MBAthink"

You actually think Festool doesn't have a few MBAthinkers running around
figuring out how to pry large sums of cash out of the pockets of Texans?




You maybe think that we that can afford a quality tool are sick and
tired of paying for crap and Festool recognizes that?

On 4/10/2012 5:54 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
"Larry W" wrote:

Hel, you could but a gallon of gas for 20 cents in my lifetime, and
I'm
under 60 (barely)
------------------------------------
Gas for just less than $0.20/gal was quite common in metro Detroit in
the late '50s.

Known as "gas wars".


Lew




19.9 was "quite common" in the early 70's in Corpus Christi. I remember
filling up my car for $2.

On 4/10/2012 4:31 PM, tiredofspam wrote:
Agreed, and at my local lumber yard, they restack the ply on edge, which
I believe is the reason I don't have that problem with their stuff
(since there is room for air), but do with the HD. I have not been able
to ever get the bow out of the HD stuff. It's just set.


Laying flat on a solid flat surface is best. HD tends to balance
plywood on two forks, laying sorta flat.

Yea HD does that, so does my lumber yard for stuff that moves quickly,
like sheathing and stuff. But for cab grade they put it upright when
they move a flat in ( I assume it doesn't move as quickly). Its tougher
on the edges. But it also allows you to go in an look through the ply.




On 4/10/2012 10:12 PM, Leon wrote:
On 4/10/2012 4:31 PM, tiredofspam wrote:
Agreed, and at my local lumber yard, they restack the ply on edge, which
I believe is the reason I don't have that problem with their stuff
(since there is room for air), but do with the HD. I have not been able
to ever get the bow out of the HD stuff. It's just set.


Laying flat on a solid flat surface is best. HD tends to balance plywood
on two forks, laying sorta flat.

On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 19:35:51 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 4/10/2012 1:24 PM, Jack wrote:
On 4/10/2012 1:04 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 4/10/2012 11:45 AM, Jack wrote:

It's is the MBA guys running things that make all the stuff available,
the good the bad and the ugly.

Such a ridiculous statement that it deserves to stand by itself for
posterity.

No more ridiculous than your constant whining about everything being the
fault of "MBAthink"

You actually think Festool doesn't have a few MBAthinkers running around
figuring out how to pry large sums of cash out of the pockets of Texans?

You maybe think that we that can afford a quality tool are sick and
tired of paying for crap and Festool recognizes that?

While that's entirely possible, I think the more plausible reason is
that they decided to play to the top end and spent more time building
better tools/features (and jacking up prices) than most mfgrs do. Lee
Valley, Bridge City, Lie Nielsen, Rolls Royce, Land's End, Apple,
Nordstrom, SaurStop, and a few others do that, too. I strongly doubt
-any- were built on anything resembling altruism, though.

Whatever the market will bear. Damn the torpedos, full retail ahead!
And that's OK, as long as CONgresscritters don't force them down our
throats. I'm just as happy with my Makitas and HF tools as you are
with your Festools, and that's the way it should be.

--
One word frees us of all the weight and pain of life: That word is love.
-- Sophocles

On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 21:10:55 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 4/10/2012 5:54 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
"Larry W" wrote:

Hel, you could but a gallon of gas for 20 cents in my lifetime, and
I'm
under 60 (barely)
------------------------------------
Gas for just less than $0.20/gal was quite common in metro Detroit in
the late '50s.

Known as "gas wars".



19.9 was "quite common" in the early 70's in Corpus Christi. I remember
filling up my car for $2.

Ditto my 21.3 cents/gal in Phoenix in '72, my first time away from
home. I'd fill up the old '68 Ford Ranch Wagon for under $3. I paid
$80 the other day for a Tundra fillup. gack

--
One word frees us of all the weight and pain of life: That word is love.
-- Sophocles

Leon wrote:
On 4/10/2012 4:31 PM, tiredofspam wrote:
Agreed, and at my local lumber yard, they restack the ply on edge,
which I believe is the reason I don't have that problem with their
stuff (since there is room for air), but do with the HD. I have not
been able to ever get the bow out of the HD stuff. It's just set.


Laying flat on a solid flat surface is best. HD tends to balance
plywood on two forks, laying sorta flat.

I think it's four, but I'm not sure. I know it's four when it's up in the
air, but I can't remember what it is when it's on the floor.

--

-Mike-

Larry Jaques wrote:
On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 21:10:55 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:


19.9 was "quite common" in the early 70's in Corpus Christi. I
remember filling up my car for $2.

Ditto my 21.3 cents/gal in Phoenix in '72, my first time away from
home. I'd fill up the old '68 Ford Ranch Wagon for under $3. I paid
$80 the other day for a Tundra fillup. gack

I started driving (legally...) in '69 and was paying just under $0.25 per
gallon in Albany, NY. I remember us all complaining when it hit $0.25 - and
then went all the way up to $0.30. Then of course, came the Oil Embargo and
the unbelievable happened, as gas hit $1.00 per gallon. Shoulda heard us
scream then! Wanna see a grown man cry? Join me the next time I have to
fill up my Silverado.

--

-Mike-

"John Grossbohlin" wrote:


I've seen multitudes of political failures in organizations...
competing agendas and infighting that leads to executives being
walked out. It doesn't mean the victor was right or better, it just
means they won the political battle.
------------------------------------
Oh the joys of field sales.

Stay in the field, make budget, stay out of office politics, enjoy
life.

Lew

On 4/10/2012 5:57 PM, Bill wrote:

As it was explained to me, by someone much older than me, the VIPs in
the big corporations don't have much incentive to "rock-the-boat" (take
chances). I'm thinking of Ford and GM especially. But the likes of
Microsoft (and Cisco?) too. My point is that it's not just the MBA "save
a dime" mentality, but the corporate (compensation) structure--which is
to blame. It's something like, "I'll just take my bonuses, retire
nicely, and get outta here (without rocking the boat)".

That's only part of it, but not the worst part.

That worst part is the mentality that the recipient of an MBA is somehow
suddenly endowed with the knowledge to the point of needing to know
nothing about a product to run the company making the product; the
mentality that "acquisition" is the all encompassing solution to
innovation; the part that fires the experience responsible for the very
innovation and quality that made the company a worthwhile acquisition in
the first to place pursue mediocrity in worshiping the bottom line; the
mentality that insulates management from consumers; the idea that
appearance, and not substance, is the only quality necessary ...

.... and those ****ing haircuts, ferrcrissakes! Who do they think they
are, politicians?

Well, as a matter of fact ...

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 21:12:51 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
Agreed, and at my local lumber yard, they restack the ply on edge, which
I believe is the reason I don't have that problem with their stuff

I like it when lumber yards do that, especially when I'm looking for
book matched plywood. It makes it much easier to sift through the
patterns for something that appeals to me.

On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 20:01:25 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

I'm just as happy with my Makitas and HF tools as you are
with your Festools, and that's the way it should be.

Without the lower end stuff as a baseline, the higher end products
would likely never have come to be. Except of course, when you create
a unique product. Then it's often better quality from the get go until
demand forces the creation of the cheaper stuff.

As an example of that, I'd offer up the Festool Domino as a quality
made, unique product.

Jack wrote:
On 4/10/2012 12:43 PM, Dave wrote:

And, your example of Home Depot also falls short. Board width has
diminished at HD.

That's garbage Dave, as long as I've been buying wood, the width of
lumber has been the same. A 2x6 is 5.5 inches, same as it was then. A
1x8 is 7 1/4, same as it was then. You don't know what your talking
about, or your HD is ripping you off.

I've rarely had need for 2x6 but time was when a 2x4 was 1 5/8 x 3 5/8.
Now, 1 1/2 x 3 1/2.

As far as quality goes, things like clear, edge grain fir were readily
available at decent prices (in the west at least). FAS hardwoods too. That
was pre-Home Depot.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

On 4/11/2012 6:48 AM, Dave wrote:
On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 20:01:25 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

I'm just as happy with my Makitas and HF tools as you are
with your Festools, and that's the way it should be.

Without the lower end stuff as a baseline, the higher end products
would likely never have come to be.

Just the opposite. Historically, almost all lower end stuff is solely
the result of copying the already successful, higher end stuff.

Except of course, when you create
a unique product. Then it's often better quality from the get go until
demand forces the creation of the cheaper stuff.

All successful products are unique at first ... "better mousetraps", so
to speak.

As an example of that, I'd offer up the Festool Domino as a quality
made, unique product.

A point in support ... when the patent runs out, there will surely be
many lower end copies of the Domino, just as has been done with the Fein
Multi-tool.

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
b.com...
"John Grossbohlin" wrote:


I've seen multitudes of political failures in organizations... competing
agendas and infighting that leads to executives being walked out. It
doesn't mean the victor was right or better, it just means they won the
political battle.
------------------------------------
Oh the joys of field sales.

Stay in the field, make budget, stay out of office politics, enjoy life.

Lew

Unfortunately, I've seen political battles leave the rank and file in a
position where they didn't know what to do as the winner didn't have a plan
beyond winning the battle.... Lacking direction/saleable product/resources
most of the rank and file couldn't perform well. That combined with 0%
raises led to more discontent and departures. I'm tired of watching formerly
high performing organizations fail due to this kind of stuff...

John

On 4/10/2012 10:01 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 19:35:51 -0500, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 4/10/2012 1:24 PM, Jack wrote:
On 4/10/2012 1:04 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 4/10/2012 11:45 AM, Jack wrote:

It's is the MBA guys running things that make all the stuff available,
the good the bad and the ugly.

Such a ridiculous statement that it deserves to stand by itself for
posterity.

No more ridiculous than your constant whining about everything being the
fault of "MBAthink"

You actually think Festool doesn't have a few MBAthinkers running around
figuring out how to pry large sums of cash out of the pockets of Texans?

You maybe think that we that can afford a quality tool are sick and
tired of paying for crap and Festool recognizes that?

While that's entirely possible, I think the more plausible reason is
that they decided to play to the top end and spent more time building
better tools/features (and jacking up prices) than most mfgrs do. Lee
Valley, Bridge City, Lie Nielsen, Rolls Royce, Land's End, Apple,
Nordstrom, SaurStop, and a few others do that, too. I strongly doubt
-any- were built on anything resembling altruism, though.


Was altruism even in the topic? I was under the impression that the
discussion had singled out Festool and its ungodly color and it being
the "most expensive vac on earth" and people paying unbelievable amounts
to have one. 3 Totally ignorant statements.



Whatever the market will bear. Damn the torpedos, full retail ahead!
And that's OK, as long as CONgresscritters don't force them down our
throats. I'm just as happy with my Makitas and HF tools as you are
with your Festools, and that's the way it should be.



What in the world are you talking about, what is being forced down your
throat? I am certainly not having any thing forced down my throat. If
I don't want to buy something I simply don't buy it....


Well, I believe you think you are just as happy with your Makita as I am
with my Festool. You returned you Makita saw didn't you?? ;~) I have
not yet returned any of my Festool and I had a 30 day try out period
with each Festool power tool purchase so I am not hiding buyers remorse.
I have and still use both Makita and Festool so I have first hand
knowledge of the quality of both and where one brand excels over the other.
Now I think I am just as happy with my Accord as the guy in the next
neighborhood that owns a Maserati. And I am fully aware that ignorance
is bliss so I don't really know if I am as happy or not but I am content
with my decisions. But when it comes to power tools I choose my safety,
accuracy, and ease of use, and life expectancy when making purchases.

On 4/11/2012 6:48 AM, Dave wrote:
On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 20:01:25 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

I'm just as happy with my Makitas and HF tools as you are
with your Festools, and that's the way it should be.

Without the lower end stuff as a baseline, the higher end products
would likely never have come to be. Except of course, when you create
a unique product. Then it's often better quality from the get go until
demand forces the creation of the cheaper stuff.

As an example of that, I'd offer up the Festool Domino as a quality
made, unique product.


Or take the Fein Multimaster.. There are now cheap and crap versions
made by other manufacturers.

"Mike Marlow" wrote in
:

Larry Jaques wrote:
On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 21:10:55 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:


19.9 was "quite common" in the early 70's in Corpus Christi. I
remember filling up my car for $2.

Ditto my 21.3 cents/gal in Phoenix in '72, my first time away from
home. I'd fill up the old '68 Ford Ranch Wagon for under $3. I paid
$80 the other day for a Tundra fillup. gack

I started driving (legally...) in '69 and was paying just under $0.25
per gallon in Albany, NY. I remember us all complaining when it hit
$0.25 - and then went all the way up to $0.30. Then of course, came
the Oil Embargo and the unbelievable happened, as gas hit $1.00 per
gallon. Shoulda heard us scream then! Wanna see a grown man cry?
Join me the next time I have to fill up my Silverado.

Come on, guys. Quit your bellyaching. Gas is $10/gal in EUrope, and
they still drive big cars on the Autobahn and Autostrada.

While the current high prices in the US are an aberration, inflation has
made 1 USD in 1970 worth over $6 in 2012. Add in the extra taxes that (I
believe) were levied on gasoline since, and you'll get very close to at
least $2 to $2.50. And as the oil crisis of the 70s showed, supply and
demand can out-duel sense anytime. You $0.15 cup of coffee of the early
70s (which was refilled at will), now costs a bit more too.

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

On 4/10/2012 10:03 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 21:10:55 -0500, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 4/10/2012 5:54 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
"Larry W" wrote:

Hel, you could but a gallon of gas for 20 cents in my lifetime, and
I'm
under 60 (barely)
------------------------------------
Gas for just less than $0.20/gal was quite common in metro Detroit in
the late '50s.

Known as "gas wars".



19.9 was "quite common" in the early 70's in Corpus Christi. I remember
filling up my car for $2.

Ditto my 21.3 cents/gal in Phoenix in '72, my first time away from
home. I'd fill up the old '68 Ford Ranch Wagon for under $3. I paid
$80 the other day for a Tundra fillup.gack

So we are talking gas going up in price to about 20 times what it used
to be in 1970`1972.
A new and nicely equipped pick up in 1971 stickered for about $2k and
now about $40k

I guarantee you that if an alternative fuel that we have to purchase
replaces petroleum based products we will be paying more for the same
amount of energy. If this was not true we would have switched decades
ago. Oil is way too plentiful to be expensive, relatively.

If electric cars become mainstream demand will increase and our
electricity rates will surely increase, and not just the amount of extra
usage but for the same reason oil prices increase.

Just wait until some one comes up with a way to measure every breath you
take...

On 4/10/2012 9:32 PM, tiredofspam wrote:
Yea HD does that, so does my lumber yard for stuff that moves quickly,
like sheathing and stuff. But for cab grade they put it upright when
they move a flat in ( I assume it doesn't move as quickly). Its tougher
on the edges. But it also allows you to go in an look through the ply.


I can't say I have ever seen plywood stored on edge by any retailer or
lumber yard. Absolutely not doubting you, that is the way I store it
but IMHO not the best way.