RickHlavka spaketh...
Somewhere I read that I need both a planer and jointer to clean up
wood, and I can't figure out why I would need a jointer?

A jointer makes a board flat, it can also true the edges for glue up, cut
rabbit joints, cut tapers and curves as well.

A planer makes both sides parallel and reduces the thickness of wood.

preparing to clean them up to use for flooring, etc. I'm thinking of
buying a 15" planer to smooth the faces and trim them down to size
(3/4" for the floor, for instance). I think the edges can be
straightened with a table saw, so what would I need a jointer for?

Maybe you don't for flooring if the boards are relatively flat and you
have a good blade. My initial woodworking training included a jointer and
I am convinced that I must have one, although I have been getting by with
hand planes.

Plus, any other tips on how to go from the raw wood to finished lumber
would be appreciated!

The sequence I was taught is this:
1. flatten one face on the jointer
2. true one edge on the jointer, you can rough it out with a TS, cut
opposite side parallel with TS, then joint to width
3. use planer to make sides parallel and get within a hair of final
thickness
4. tool the wood
5. sand/scrape (I usually use 60-80-120)
6. assemble
7. final sand/scrape (150-220)

I've probably left something out, but I'm sure someone will remind me.
You can substitute hand planes during steps 1-3, it's just more labor
intensive.
--
McQualude

On 15 Aug 2003 03:03:31 GMT, (RickHlavka) wrote:

Somewhere I read that I need both a planer and jointer to clean up wood,

This is a confusion that arises through shortened terminology. In
full, the names a

Planer - anything that planes

Surface planer - planer with knives and tables in one surface.

Jointer - narrow surface planer with a vertical fence

Thickness planer - planer with knives above the table


You _need_ a thickness planer. You will get wedges with the others.

If you saw the boards fairly flat, and they stay that way when drying,
then you don't need a surface planer.

If you have cupped boards, then a thickness planer will flatten them.
Not using excess pressure helps (don't try to _iron_ the wood flat !)
and sometimes some hand plane work to knock the high spots down. But
you _can_ remove most cupping on a thicknesser.

If you have twist, then you can't take this out with a thicknesser and
this is where a surface planer is useful. Personally I look twice at
the board. Boards (in most timbers) shouldn't twist, so it's either a
drying fault or an unstable board. Often I rip this in half (if I can)
to get the smaller useful and stable part out, rather than machining
it perfectly flat and knowing it will twist again tomorrow.


You don't need a jointer for hardwoods or the "timberyard" part of the
process, because we rarely need squared edges. But many of us have
them for joinery anyway, so we use them as surface planers.

Steps for truing stock.

Absolutely necessary. A flat face to work from.

Joint (make flat and straight) one face (reference face) so you have
something to true (reference) the remaining three sides to. Not to be done
on a planer because the feed rollers will push out any warp and it will
reappear as the stock exits the planer. For the same reason use very little
down force when jointing.

Joint one edge with the reference face against the jointers fence. This will
give you a straight edge that is at 90 degrees to the reference face. Also
an edge to reference the next edge.,

Rip a second edge on the table saw with the reference face against the table
and the reference edge against the fence. Try to do it on the jointer and it
will give you a straight edge but not one necessarily parallel to the first
edge.

Now you can plane the piece to a proper thickness with the reference face
flat down on the planers feed table. Since the reference face is flat the
planer has no warp to press out so the face being planed will be not only be
flat but parallel to the reference face.

The jointer performs the two most critical steps in the process (the
reference face and edge) but, with sufficient dicking around, there are work
arounds. but, without the dicking around, the planer will not perform the
functions of a jointer and the jointer will not perform the functions of a
planer.


--
Mike G.
Heirloom Woods
www.heirloom-woods.net
"RickHlavka" wrote in message
...

Somewhere I read that I need both a planer and jointer to clean up wood,
and I
can't figure out why I would need a jointer? I harvested some trees a few
years ago, hired someone to cut them into 1" slabs, which have been drying
in a
stack for almost 2 years, and now I'm preparing to clean them up to use
for
flooring, etc. I'm thinking of buying a 15" planer to smooth the faces
and
trim them down to size (3/4" for the floor, for instance). I think the
edges
can be straightened with a table saw, so what would I need a jointer for?

Plus, any other tips on how to go from the raw wood to finished lumber
would be
appreciated!

How long will this urban legend be around?

C'mon over and I'll buy you a case of your favorite if you can smash the cup
out of a piece of rough 4/4 maple. Then I'll show you how you really have
to flaunt good sense to do it to 3/4 pine.

BTW, I doubt any lunchbox planer out there can apply more pressure on a
board than a 210 lb human bearing down with pushblocks at the jointer.

Oh yes, and one face does not have to be absolutely flat to feed the planer.
It just has to sit flat.

"Mike G" wrote in message
...
Absolutely necessary. A flat face to work from.

Joint (make flat and straight) one face (reference face) so you have
something to true (reference) the remaining three sides to. Not to be done
on a planer because the feed rollers will push out any warp and it will
reappear as the stock exits the planer. For the same reason use very
little
down force when jointing.

What ever you say bubba. We'll ignore the fact that the PSI pushing down on
the stock as it feeds through a planer is concentrated on the very small
contact area of the feed rollers as well as the fact that if it ain't flat
going through the planer it ain't going to be flat as it comes out. We'll
also pass on the fact that proper feeding of stock through a jointer
specifically precludes pushing down with any great force on the stock. It's
neither desirable nor necessary.

We'll also pretend that the comment " Oh yes, and one face does not have to
be absolutely flat to feed the planer. It just has to sit flat.." actually
makes some kind of sense and that there will be an efficient and accurate
way to get a true edge with such a board.

Where do these people come from???????????


--
Mike G.
Heirloom Woods
www.heirloom-woods.net
"George" wrote in message
...
How long will this urban legend be around?

C'mon over and I'll buy you a case of your favorite if you can smash the
cup
out of a piece of rough 4/4 maple. Then I'll show you how you really
have
to flaunt good sense to do it to 3/4 pine.

BTW, I doubt any lunchbox planer out there can apply more pressure on a
board than a 210 lb human bearing down with pushblocks at the jointer.

Oh yes, and one face does not have to be absolutely flat to feed the
planer.
It just has to sit flat.

"Mike G" wrote in message
...
Absolutely necessary. A flat face to work from.

Joint (make flat and straight) one face (reference face) so you have
something to true (reference) the remaining three sides to. Not to be
done
on a planer because the feed rollers will push out any warp and it will
reappear as the stock exits the planer. For the same reason use very
little
down force when jointing.

On Fri, 15 Aug 2003 17:24:39 GMT, "George"
wrote:

Oh yes, and one face does not have to be absolutely flat to feed the planer.
It just has to sit flat.

Huh? G

Run a twisted board through a planer, get another twisted board of
equal thickness all along it's length. The planer will not remove the
twist, only jointing one face and THEN planing to thickness will
remove the twist.

Barry

B a r r y B u r k e J r . wrote:
Run a twisted board through a planer, get another twisted board of
equal thickness all along it's length. The planer will not remove the
twist, only jointing one face and THEN planing to thickness will
remove the twist.

Not if you shim it. I watched our instructor do it in a class last
weekend - two shims taped to the high corners of a twisted board.
2 passes later, the topside sat flat on the table. Then he ran it
through on the other side and voila! A flat board.

Now that I've seen it done, I know I can do it, too.

--
************************************
Chris Merrill

(remove the ZZZ to contact me)
************************************

"John Thompson" wrote in message
What what happens is that the machinist "rocks" the part on the grinder
table, trying to find the concave side and putting it on the bottom. He
then shims it with thin stock under the high sides until it doesn't rock
anymore, then turns on the magnetic table.

Don't see why you can't do something like that with a board in a planer.

John

Different tables.

Locking the material with a shim on a stationary table is much easier than
trying to shim a 6' board that is going to move on a short table under the
stationary cutter.

If you have a consistent cup, it may work, but if you have some odd twisting
at different points, it is going to be much more difficult to get it right.
Only a couple of feet of the board is supported at a given time.

The shorter the board, the easier it is. The thicker the board, the less
likely to get pressed down if cupped. I've tried taking very light cuts on
some pine boards with cup and had no luck. It is just too soft and easily
flattened by the rollers to work properly. On 8/4 oak, I had no problem.

I don't have a jointer yet and I've gotten by, but there have been times
that life would have been much easier with it. I've also passed on some
cheap wood that could have easily been used with a jointer, but would have
been a PITA with just a planer.

No matter how bad a piece of wood may be twisted, someone here has been able
to get it perfect with an Xacto knife and beer can opener, but it sure is
easier with the right tools.
Ed

http://pages.cthome.net/edhome

Fred the Red Shirt spaketh...

Summary: If you can select stock that isn't wildly deformed and
exercise a bit of skill and cunning you can do nicely without the
jointer. It is good to have one though.

I think it boils down to people who learned with a jointer and people who
didn't. There are many workarounds for not having a jointer, but you have
to recognize they are workarounds. I learned with a jointer and will always
see uses for one and consider it a priority in the shop for precision
woodworking.
--
McQualude

Before there were electric jointers people used to sit around and say "I
sure wish somebody would invent the jointer so we wouln't have to use these
rig jobs all the time".
"McQualude" wrote in message
...
I think it boils down to people who learned with a jointer and people who
didn't. There are many workarounds for not having a jointer, but you have
to recognize they are workarounds. I learned with a jointer and will
always
see uses for one and consider it a priority in the shop for precision
woodworking.
--
McQualude

You know, people only had crude stone (or was it bone ;-) axes at one
time too.

Renata

On Wed, 20 Aug 2003 17:48:47 GMT, "CW"
wrote:

Before there were electric jointers people used to sit around and say "I
sure wish somebody would invent the jointer so we wouln't have to use these
rig jobs all the time".
"McQualude" wrote in message
...
I think it boils down to people who learned with a jointer and people who
didn't. There are many workarounds for not having a jointer, but you have
to recognize they are workarounds. I learned with a jointer and will
always
see uses for one and consider it a priority in the shop for precision
woodworking.
--
McQualude

There has always been powered jointers. It's just that before water power or
electricity was harnessed they were called apprentices.

--
Mike G.
Heirloom Woods
www.heirloom-woods.net
"CW" wrote in message
news:3wO0b.209281$Ho3.27232@sccrnsc03...
Before there were electric jointers people used to sit around and say "I
sure wish somebody would invent the jointer so we wouln't have to use
these
rig jobs all the time".
"McQualude" wrote in message
...
I think it boils down to people who learned with a jointer and people
who
didn't. There are many workarounds for not having a jointer, but you
have
to recognize they are workarounds. I learned with a jointer and will
always
see uses for one and consider it a priority in the shop for precision
woodworking.
--
McQualude

Gary Rogowski who writes articles for Fine Woodworking, has addressed
this issue and agrees that, if it existed for the same price and size
range as the other tools, a 12 or 13 inch jointer would be the perfect
companion to the 12 or 13 inch thickness planer. You bring up a
surface planer -- interesting. Now I know that you have to have a
dead flat surface extending a ridiculous distance out each end of the
jointer for a long board. This adds up to a very large and expensive
machine. Of course the planer was in this category just a few years
ago. The benchtop thickness planer brought this machine down to a
reasonable size and price. Somehow it just seems that a 12 inch
"jointer" or as you describe, a surface planer might be created along
the lines of the innovative thought that went into a benchtop
thickness planer. It might not do a 6 ft board the way an 8 or 12
inch jointer would, but it might -- if not to bed -- could possibly
put this discussion into a light sleep. What do you think?

Andy Dingley wrote in message . ..
On 15 Aug 2003 03:03:31 GMT, (RickHlavka) wrote:

Somewhere I read that I need both a planer and jointer to clean up wood,

This is a confusion that arises through shortened terminology. In
full, the names a

Planer - anything that planes

Surface planer - planer with knives and tables in one surface.

Jointer - narrow surface planer with a vertical fence

Thickness planer - planer with knives above the table


You _need_ a thickness planer. You will get wedges with the others.

If you saw the boards fairly flat, and they stay that way when drying,
then you don't need a surface planer.

If you have cupped boards, then a thickness planer will flatten them.
Not using excess pressure helps (don't try to _iron_ the wood flat !)
and sometimes some hand plane work to knock the high spots down. But
you _can_ remove most cupping on a thicknesser.

If you have twist, then you can't take this out with a thicknesser and
this is where a surface planer is useful. Personally I look twice at
the board. Boards (in most timbers) shouldn't twist, so it's either a
drying fault or an unstable board. Often I rip this in half (if I can)
to get the smaller useful and stable part out, rather than machining
it perfectly flat and knowing it will twist again tomorrow.


You don't need a jointer for hardwoods or the "timberyard" part of the
process, because we rarely need squared edges. But many of us have
them for joinery anyway, so we use them as surface planers.

On 20 Aug 2003 20:59:16 -0700, (Eric Anderson)
wrote:

Somehow it just seems that a 12 inch
"jointer" or as you describe, a surface planer might be created along
the lines of the innovative thought that went into a benchtop
thickness planer.

Isn't that where the European combination planer / thicknesser is
heading ? These cost the same as 12" thicknesser + 6" jointer, but
work on 10" overall. If there were some affordable 12" combinations,
I'd be considering them.

One problem with this is that the thicknesser is underneath the
surfacer tables. If these tables are heavy (wide, long or substantial
cast iron) then they get awkward to move out of the way.

There are going to be plenty of people on here that tell you otherwise (due
to ignorance or justifying the money they spent) saying that you can't live
without a jointer but I do just fine. I don't want to dedicate the shop
space to a machine of such limited usefulness. I do have a planer and would
not want to do without that.
Let the flames begin.
"RickHlavka" wrote in message
...

Somewhere I read that I need both a planer and jointer to clean up wood,
and I
can't figure out why I would need a jointer? I harvested some trees a few
years ago, hired someone to cut them into 1" slabs, which have been drying
in a
stack for almost 2 years, and now I'm preparing to clean them up to use
for
flooring, etc. I'm thinking of buying a 15" planer to smooth the faces
and
trim them down to size (3/4" for the floor, for instance). I think the
edges
can be straightened with a table saw, so what would I need a jointer for?

Plus, any other tips on how to go from the raw wood to finished lumber
would be
appreciated!

now THAT's an attitude that qualifies for the pot calling the kettle
black! (in case you can't figure it out, I'm referring to your idea that
folks are ignorant for having a jointer). Green monster, perhaps? Grow up.

dave

CW wrote:

There are going to be plenty of people on here that tell you otherwise (due
to ignorance or justifying the money they spent) saying that you can't live
without a jointer but I do just fine. I don't want to dedicate the shop
space to a machine of such limited usefulness. I do have a planer and would
not want to do without that.
Let the flames begin.
"RickHlavka" wrote in message
...

Somewhere I read that I need both a planer and jointer to clean up wood,

and I

can't figure out why I would need a jointer? I harvested some trees a few
years ago, hired someone to cut them into 1" slabs, which have been drying

in a

stack for almost 2 years, and now I'm preparing to clean them up to use

for

flooring, etc. I'm thinking of buying a 15" planer to smooth the faces

and

trim them down to size (3/4" for the floor, for instance). I think the

edges

can be straightened with a table saw, so what would I need a jointer for?

Plus, any other tips on how to go from the raw wood to finished lumber

would be

appreciated!

Reading comprehension Dave, work on it.
"Bay Area Dave" wrote in message
.com...
now THAT's an attitude that qualifies for the pot calling the kettle
black! (in case you can't figure it out, I'm referring to your idea that
folks are ignorant for having a jointer). Green monster, perhaps? Grow
up.

On Wed, 27 Aug 2003 17:18:32 GMT, "CW"
wrote:

There are going to be plenty of people on here that tell you otherwise (due
to ignorance or justifying the money they spent) saying that you can't live
without a jointer but I do just fine.

Hilarious.

Now, if you're flattening your lumber with hand planes, you may not
need one, but otherwise you're hilarious.

Anyone can "live without" any tool. A jointer simply makes truing
stock faster, easier, and more accurate than workarounds.

Barry (justifying the $375 I spent on a jointer)

No flame. AAMOF, I could live without a jointer, and did for a long time,
but I wouldn't want to. So happens I recently took delivery of a new
Powermatic 54a, which replaced an old benchtop model. As far as "justifying
the money", read on and see that even SWMBO had to agree that ! have
summarily, if luckily, done so in this case.

I had recently picked up 43 rough walnut "blanks" a local sign company gave
me for the asking. They were half-moon shaped pieces about 48" long X 3"
thick, likely S2S1E at one point and I got the rough edge and the curve
only. The only way to make these things useful was to begin by jointing the
rough edge and going from there.

Each of these 43 blanks, after being jointed and planed, resulted in S4S
walnut stock with dimensions of 3" X 3" X 36" ... perfect table leg blanks.
At local hardwood lumber dealers prices of $11.75 b/f for S4S walnut blanks
of this size and grade, the new jointer basically paid for itself, and made
another $380, in less than a day.

I could of done the same thing with a hand plane and realized a greater
gain, but I wouldn't have.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/24/03


"CW" wrote in message
There are going to be plenty of people on here that tell you otherwise
(due
to ignorance or justifying the money they spent) saying that you can't
live
without a jointer but I do just fine. I don't want to dedicate the shop
space to a machine of such limited usefulness. I do have a planer and
would
not want to do without that.
Let the flames begin.

A planer makes both sides parallel to each other, they do not flatten. A
jointer flattens a side, then a planer can provide a second flat surface.

You're right ... and while I do have all those items on hand, I still
wouldn't have taken on that job without the/a jointer.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/24/03

"George" wrote in message
Hmmm, checked the price of good planes lately? A pair or three would
about
do for that Powermatic.

And then there's the vice to hold the stock, the bench it's attached to
.....

I kinda agree with you, in that you can live without a jointer if you
have to, and if you are willing to fasten temporary pieces of known
straight boards or other edges to run against the fence of the table
saw. A little twist in flooring is not a big deal, it will be fastened
down anyway,and T&G is even better.

Andy Dingley writes:

On 15 Aug 2003 03:03:31 GMT, (RickHlavka) wrote:

Somewhere I read that I need both a planer and jointer to clean up wood,

[...]

Surface planer - planer with knives and tables in one surface.

Jointer - narrow surface planer with a vertical fence

Thickness planer - planer with knives above the table


You _need_ a thickness planer. You will get wedges with the others.


there are also very nice combination machines, that use the same
rotating blades both for planing/jointing and thicknessing, by the
simmple effort of having an infeed/outfeed table, a (removable)
vertical fence and an additional thicknessing table below that
setup. It works very well (at least my fathers Metabo machine, now
about 20 years old) and saves a lot of shop space (and money...).

--
Dr. Juergen Hannappel http://lisa2.physik.uni-bonn.de/~hannappe
Phone: +49 228 73 2447 FAX ... 7869
Physikalisches Institut der Uni Bonn Nussallee 12, D-53115 Bonn, Germany
CERN: Phone: +412276 76461 Fax: ..77930 Bat. 892-R-A13 CH-1211 Geneve 23