The Woodworker's Journal book

It is disturbing for me to read the thread about the Woodworker's
Journal book. I can assure you that there was no intention of causing
aggravation and for that I apologize.

Most of the people getting the book offer in the mail are on (or have
been on) our subscriber list. The book project was created for a
couple of reasons. First off, we have 29 years of woodworking content,
the majority of which is now out of print. We get hundreds of queries
asking for these plans every year. Our only recourse at this time is
to photocopy the plans, which is not a great solution for our
customers or for us. After thinking about it for a while, we thought a
good way to put those projects back in print would be to put them into
a book series. The problem was that, while we know how to make and
sell magazines … we don't know much about selling books. (And as
pedestrian as it sounds, we are a "for profit" organization. That is
the second reason.) So we hired a marketing company to help us do
that. Their suggestion was a continuity series sent through the mail.
We tested the concept (10,000 books on the first mailing), and got a
favorable response.
The first book in a series like this always contains a "no strings
attached" offer. If you like it, and would like to see more, you can
buy it. If you don't like it, there are two choices. You can return
it, at our expense (return label is included), or simply consider it a
free gift and do with it as you will. That's all clearly stated in the
letter that comes with the book. As a side point, we have recently
added a good-sized "bubble" on the outside of the book packaging
that says "No obligation opportunity. Please read enclosed letter"
just to be very clear. Again, I apologize for the aggravation.

Rob Johnstone,
Editor, Woodworker's Journal

Once again, this topic comes up. I thought we laid this to rest a
couple of weeks ago when it was my magazine under attack. At the time,
I explained as carefully as I could that *NO OBLIGATION* is the name of
the game with these kinds of offers. There is no reason under the sun
for anyone who gets an offer of this type to get all upset and feel
guilty. If you like the offer and want more, sign up. If you don't,
send it back. If you don't like the offer, and don't want to send it
back, then don't. Just keep it as a gift. Give it to someone else as a
gift. Toss it out. Whatever.

A couple of weeks back when it was Woodcraft Magazine under attack, I
not only attempted to explain all of this, but also stood up for Rob
and WWJ's book promotions because the situations were so similar. (I
seem to recall that I was criticized for that by a couple of posters.)
But it's the same thing. There's nothing sleazy here, nothing
underhanded. Rob's a great guy and edits a fine publication. He has
better things to do than scam woodworkers. If you get a promotional
offer from his publication, or mine, or anyone else's (I got a free
cookbook last week from BH&G, with the exact same kind of offer),
there's nothing to get upset or guilty about. It's just plain old
simple marketing of an offer that we publishing folks hope you'll like.
If you like it, buy it. If you don't, ignore it. You won't hurt our
feelings, and we won't come yell at you.

As Rob says, "Read the enclosed letter." Everything you need to know
is in there.

A.J.

Thanks for the book Rob - I will check it out and if I find it worth of the
fee I will gladly send in a check. If I do not find it useful I will send it
back or toss it (depending if I can still find the packaging and return
shipping label). No whining here. Keep up the good work.

-Brian

"Rob Johnstone" wrote in message
m...
The Woodworker's Journal book

It is disturbing for me to read the thread about the Woodworker's
Journal book. I can assure you that there was no intention of causing
aggravation and for that I apologize.

Most of the people getting the book offer in the mail are on (or have
been on) our subscriber list. The book project was created for a
couple of reasons. First off, we have 29 years of woodworking content,
the majority of which is now out of print. We get hundreds of queries
asking for these plans every year. Our only recourse at this time is
to photocopy the plans, which is not a great solution for our
customers or for us. After thinking about it for a while, we thought a
good way to put those projects back in print would be to put them into
a book series. The problem was that, while we know how to make and
sell magazines . we don't know much about selling books. (And as
pedestrian as it sounds, we are a "for profit" organization. That is
the second reason.) So we hired a marketing company to help us do
that. Their suggestion was a continuity series sent through the mail.
We tested the concept (10,000 books on the first mailing), and got a
favorable response.
The first book in a series like this always contains a "no strings
attached" offer. If you like it, and would like to see more, you can
buy it. If you don't like it, there are two choices. You can return
it, at our expense (return label is included), or simply consider it a
free gift and do with it as you will. That's all clearly stated in the
letter that comes with the book. As a side point, we have recently
added a good-sized "bubble" on the outside of the book packaging
that says "No obligation opportunity. Please read enclosed letter"
just to be very clear. Again, I apologize for the aggravation.

Rob Johnstone,
Editor, Woodworker's Journal

I stand firmly behind both you and Rob on this issue, and say 'Bravo!' to your willingness to address the naysayers and
critics in this public forum. This newsgroup is becoming less and less about woodworking and more about a few people
with too much time on their hands sitting at their computers throwing stones at whatever topic-de-jour catches their
interest.
Both of you publish fine magazines that provide a valuable resource to the woodworking community. Anyone who believes
that you would stoop to underhanded marketing techniques at the risk of your good names has been brainwashed by the spam
police into mistrusting everyone and everything.
Thank you and keep up the good work.

A.J. Hamler wrote:
Once again, this topic comes up. I thought we laid this to rest a
couple of weeks ago when it was my magazine under attack. At the time,
I explained as carefully as I could that *NO OBLIGATION* is the name of
the game with these kinds of offers. There is no reason under the sun
for anyone who gets an offer of this type to get all upset and feel
guilty. If you like the offer and want more, sign up. If you don't,
send it back. If you don't like the offer, and don't want to send it
back, then don't. Just keep it as a gift. Give it to someone else as a
gift. Toss it out. Whatever.

A couple of weeks back when it was Woodcraft Magazine under attack, I
not only attempted to explain all of this, but also stood up for Rob
and WWJ's book promotions because the situations were so similar. (I
seem to recall that I was criticized for that by a couple of posters.)
But it's the same thing. There's nothing sleazy here, nothing
underhanded. Rob's a great guy and edits a fine publication. He has
better things to do than scam woodworkers. If you get a promotional
offer from his publication, or mine, or anyone else's (I got a free
cookbook last week from BH&G, with the exact same kind of offer),
there's nothing to get upset or guilty about. It's just plain old
simple marketing of an offer that we publishing folks hope you'll like.
If you like it, buy it. If you don't, ignore it. You won't hurt our
feelings, and we won't come yell at you.

As Rob says, "Read the enclosed letter." Everything you need to know
is in there.

A.J.

"Rob Johnstone" wrote in message
m...
The Woodworker's Journal book

The first book in a series like this always contains a "no strings
attached" offer. If you like it, and would like to see more, you can
buy it. If you don't like it, there are two choices. You can return
it, at our expense (return label is included), or simply consider it a
free gift and do with it as you will. That's all clearly stated in the
letter that comes with the book. As a side point, we have recently
added a good-sized "bubble" on the outside of the book packaging
that says "No obligation opportunity. Please read enclosed letter"
just to be very clear. Again, I apologize for the aggravation.

Rob Johnstone,
Editor, Woodworker's Journal

Thank you for replying to all the postings here. What you did not address
though, was the repeated invoicing for the singe book. Frankly, it ticked
me off when I got the second invoice. No, I did not send the book back, no,
I did not join. I do not however, want to be badgered for my decision. I
know there is no obligation. You took a risk and in this case lot out.

Another matter is the cost of a subscription. I recently (and probably
foolishly) sent a check to re-up the magazine for $24.95. The check was sent
and cashed in April. Now I get another request for me to re-subscribe, but
the price has dropped to $19.95 for the same deal. What am I missing here,
aside from 5 bucks? Obviously, waiting to the last minute is beneficial to
me. Please address this concern also. I feel hoodwinked. The bill says
this is for "preferred subscribers" Was I not preferred last month?

So far, WJ has not been a happy decision for me. I don't know if I want to
remain a subscriber knowing that I'm not always getting a fair deal up
front. If you want to check this, you have my name and my address in
Putnam, CT 06260.

I await patiently for your reply.
Ed Pawlowski

"Rob Johnstone" wrote in message
m...

Snip


The first book in a series like this always contains a "no strings
attached" offer. If you like it, and would like to see more, you can
buy it. If you don't like it, there are two choices. You can return
it, at our expense (return label is included), or simply consider it a
free gift and do with it as you will. That's all clearly stated in the
letter that comes with the book. As a side point, we have recently
added a good-sized "bubble" on the outside of the book packaging
that says "No obligation opportunity. Please read enclosed letter"
just to be very clear. Again, I apologize for the aggravation.


Well I give you credit for coming and explaining HOWEVER, The cover of the
container should have said, FREE GIFT ENCLOSED. Then the letter inside
could have said pay if you like, return if you like, bla, bla, bla.
Returning it would have required me to drive to the post office as my mail
box will not accommodate the size of the package.

No obligation on the cover of the box does not assure me that I am not going
to have to do something to keep from being obligated. I personally would
have rather not had to even open the box to find out any details at all
before I threw the contents away.

"A.J. Hamler" wrote in message

A couple of weeks back when it was Woodcraft Magazine under attack, I
not only attempted to explain all of this, but also stood up for Rob
and WWJ's book promotions because the situations were so similar. (I
seem to recall that I was criticized for that by a couple of posters.)
But it's the same thing. There's nothing sleazy here, nothing
underhanded. Rob's a great guy and edits a fine publication. He has
better things to do than scam woodworkers.


Hi, AJ

Yes, it's me again! Please see my reply to Rob. Stand up guy that he is,
I'm sure he will answer my question about variable subscription rates.
Maybe it is just me, but I'm getting this distrust of the magazine
publishing industry. Perhaps there is nothing sleazy and underhanded about
asking for more money in April than in May for the same product. ****ed me
off though. You really should stop and find out the facts before defending
someone that has questionable billing policies. Do all you guys in the
business do that? How about an insider tip as to the best time to renew
subscriptions to get the best deal? Most all of us on this newsgroup
subscribe to a couple of magazines and can use your insight to wind around
the path of multi billings to the best value. Does Woodcraft Magazine to
the same?

Your friend always,
Ed

Rob and A.J.,

While I applaud you for answering directly to the newsgroup, do realize that
you did nothing wrong and the few who "thought" (and I mean that very
loosely) to express themselves this way probably have nothing better to do.

I imagine the silent majority is not upset.

Thank you,
Mike


"Rob Johnstone" wrote in message
m...
The Woodworker's Journal book

It is disturbing for me to read the thread about the Woodworker's
Journal book. I can assure you that there was no intention of causing
aggravation and for that I apologize...

In article , Jonah
wrote:

I stand firmly behind both you and Rob on this issue, and say 'Bravo!' to
your willingness to address the naysayers and
critics in this public forum. This newsgroup is becoming less and less about
woodworking and more about a few people
with too much time on their hands sitting at their computers throwing stones
at whatever topic-de-jour catches their
interest.
Both of you publish fine magazines that provide a valuable resource to the
woodworking community. Anyone who believes
that you would stoop to underhanded marketing techniques at the risk of your
good names has been brainwashed by the spam
police into mistrusting everyone and everything.
Thank you and keep up the good work.

....and what does any of THIS have to do with woodworking, Jonah?
Did the plight of the publishing industry catch your interest?
Did you have too much time on your hands? Were you sitting at your
computer when you had all that time on your hands?
You weren't throwing stones at all of us, were you, Jonah?

Jonah?

*tap, tap, tap*

"Is this thing on???"

"A.J. Hamler" wrote in message
ups.com...

Snip of curt paragraph.


A couple of weeks back when it was Woodcraft Magazine under attack, I
not only attempted to explain all of this, but also stood up for Rob
and WWJ's book promotions because the situations were so similar. (I
seem to recall that I was criticized for that by a couple of posters.)
But it's the same thing. There's nothing sleazy here, nothing
underhanded. Rob's a great guy and edits a fine publication. He has
better things to do than scam woodworkers. If you get a promotional
offer from his publication, or mine, or anyone else's (I got a free
cookbook last week from BH&G, with the exact same kind of offer),
there's nothing to get upset or guilty about. It's just plain old
simple marketing of an offer that we publishing folks hope you'll like.
If you like it, buy it. If you don't, ignore it. You won't hurt our
feelings, and we won't come yell at you.

You may not think it is sleazy but apparently we do and we are the ones that
you are trying to sell to. Don't tell us that we are wrong! You are the
ones sending out the crap that is ****ing some of us off. If you cannot
take the criticism I suggest you find another way to hawk your goods.

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
"A.J. Hamler" wrote in message

A couple of weeks back when it was Woodcraft Magazine under attack, I
not only attempted to explain all of this, but also stood up for Rob
and WWJ's book promotions because the situations were so similar. (I
seem to recall that I was criticized for that by a couple of posters.)
But it's the same thing. There's nothing sleazy here, nothing
underhanded. Rob's a great guy and edits a fine publication. He has
better things to do than scam woodworkers.


Hi, AJ

Yes, it's me again! Please see my reply to Rob. Stand up guy that he is,
I'm sure he will answer my question about variable subscription rates.
Maybe it is just me, but I'm getting this distrust of the magazine
publishing industry. Perhaps there is nothing sleazy and underhanded about
asking for more money in April than in May for the same product. ****ed me
off though. You really should stop and find out the facts before defending
someone that has questionable billing policies. Do all you guys in the
business do that? How about an insider tip as to the best time to renew
subscriptions to get the best deal? Most all of us on this newsgroup
subscribe to a couple of magazines and can use your insight to wind around
the path of multi billings to the best value. Does Woodcraft Magazine to
the same?

Your questions are better addressed to those who control those aspect
of the publications, and that person is NOT the editor. Check under
such titles as Publisher, Circulation Director and so on. The editor
works with magazine content and layout. You really should stop and find
out the facts before you criticize those who do not deal with the
subject you're objecting to.

"Charlie Self" wrote in message
oups.com...

Your questions are better addressed to those who control those aspect
of the publications, and that person is NOT the editor. Check under
such titles as Publisher, Circulation Director and so on. The editor
works with magazine content and layout. You really should stop and find
out the facts before you criticize those who do not deal with the
subject you're objecting to.


Good point BUT why did not the Circulation Director make his comments here
about the shipping of this no obligation book instead of the Publisher? ;~)

In article .com,
"Charlie Self" wrote:

[snipperized]

Your questions are better addressed to those who control those aspect
of the publications, and that person is NOT the editor. Check under
such titles as Publisher, Circulation Director and so on. The editor
works with magazine content and layout. You really should stop and find
out the facts before you criticize those who do not deal with the
subject you're objecting to.

Then it should be the Publisher, Circulation Director and so on to have
this little fire-side chat with us here, eh?

The out-sourcing of marketing approaches (Publisher's Clearing House
etc. (You MAY already be a wiener")) brings with it tried and true
methods of shaking the bushes for subscribers at the lowest possible
level...i.e. people who really don't want the magazines.

The 'negative billing' style of promotions are becoming more and more
misleading as the digging for subscribers goes deeper. (Driven by the
lure of higher circulation numbers in order to fetch bigger bucks for
advertising.)
Those schemes most certainly count on the basic instinct for humans to
want to be decent.
A book shows up.
They hold in their hands something that isn't theirs. Do they send it
back and feel bad, or keep it and feel bad?
The only option left is to pay.
It's a dirty ploy to bilk nice people.
NOT cool.

(Rob Johnstone) wrote:

The Woodworker's Journal book

It is disturbing for me to read the thread about the Woodworker's
Journal book. I can assure you that there was no intention of causing
aggravation and for that I apologize.

Nice reply, I don't have first-hand knowledge of this situation, but
have some comments based on the notes here.

First of all, I suspect that you are legally in the clear, and I
suspect that what is being characterized here as followup bills for
the book are probably technically repeat invitations to pay for that
book and join the club. If not, maybe you need to think about getting
a new lawyer. If so, maybe you need to think about getting a new ad
copy writer.

Seriously, no matter if your communications are okay from a legal
perspective, they clearly are ticking off some folks here. That should
raise a red flag for you that some things are being [mis]interpreted
in ways you did not intend. Surely you don't want lots of your
subscribers getting upset at you. While it is a small number
complaining here, you probably also have only a small number of
subscribers here, and I don't know what percentage it might be of that
very small sample of your readership.

So, explaining here is good, but look inward, too.
--
Alex -- Replace "nospam" with "mail" to reply by email. Checked infrequently.

Thanks for helping me make my point. What little free time I have to read this group has become more of a chore than an
enjoyment because of all the off-topic babble and sniping I have to wade through. Here are a couple of stand-up guys
apologizing for not dumbing down their mailing enough to suit the masses, and all they get is more abuse!
Sorry I didn't answer your post immediately...I was making sawdust.



...and what does any of THIS have to do with woodworking, Jonah?
Did the plight of the publishing industry catch your interest?
Did you have too much time on your hands? Were you sitting at your
computer when you had all that time on your hands?
You weren't throwing stones at all of us, were you, Jonah?

Jonah?

*tap, tap, tap*

"Is this thing on???"

In article , (Rob Johnstone) wrote:
[snip]
The first book in a series like this always contains a "no strings
attached" offer. If you like it, and would like to see more, you can
buy it. If you don't like it, there are two choices. You can return
it, at our expense (return label is included), or simply consider it a
free gift and do with it as you will.

Oddly enough, however, it seems that a number of people who received this free
gift have later *also* received multiple invoices billing them for it.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

You or the circulation department/consultant are relying on the following
1. I get this material that I never requested
2. I maybe like it but would never have ordered/need it
3. Jeesh I hate to keep something I sorta like with out paying for it, even
if they say keep it
4 I don't have time to go to the PO to ship it back, so I'll keep it
5. I still kinda feel guilty ....hmm now I'm ****ed

Don't send something of measurable value without permission of the receiver

Only my opinion
Joey

"Rob Johnstone" wrote in message
m...
The Woodworker's Journal book

It is disturbing for me to read the thread about the Woodworker's
Journal book. I can assure you that there was no intention of causing
aggravation and for that I apologize.

Most of the people getting the book offer in the mail are on (or have
been on) our subscriber list. The book project was created for a
couple of reasons. First off, we have 29 years of woodworking content,
the majority of which is now out of print. We get hundreds of queries
asking for these plans every year. Our only recourse at this time is
to photocopy the plans, which is not a great solution for our
customers or for us. After thinking about it for a while, we thought a
good way to put those projects back in print would be to put them into
a book series. The problem was that, while we know how to make and
sell magazines . we don't know much about selling books. (And as
pedestrian as it sounds, we are a "for profit" organization. That is
the second reason.) So we hired a marketing company to help us do
that. Their suggestion was a continuity series sent through the mail.
We tested the concept (10,000 books on the first mailing), and got a
favorable response.
The first book in a series like this always contains a "no strings
attached" offer. If you like it, and would like to see more, you can
buy it. If you don't like it, there are two choices. You can return
it, at our expense (return label is included), or simply consider it a
free gift and do with it as you will. That's all clearly stated in the
letter that comes with the book. As a side point, we have recently
added a good-sized "bubble" on the outside of the book packaging
that says "No obligation opportunity. Please read enclosed letter"
just to be very clear. Again, I apologize for the aggravation.

Rob Johnstone,
Editor, Woodworker's Journal

"Charlie Self" wrote in message


Your questions are better addressed to those who control those aspect
of the publications, and that person is NOT the editor.

It was the editor that decided to come to a public forum under the
Woodworker's Journal banner about the books. If he is willing to take
responsibity for that aspect, he should be able to use his influence to get
the answer to other practices by the same publication. If not, he had no
business being here defending WJ in the first place.

Check under
such titles as Publisher, Circulation Director and so on. The editor
works with magazine content and layout. You really should stop and find
out the facts before you criticize those who do not deal with the
subject you're objecting to.

I have tha facts. The fact were stated plainly. I have the invoice in front
of me. If Rob is not the person to ask, if AJ is not to back him up, they
should not make statements about their publications in a public form. I did
just that. You decided to answer me. That is your choice, that is the
chance I took. Since Woodcraft is not involved in the practice here, AJ
should either sit back and be quiet or be willing to answer for his comments
also. Just as you should. You have been involved in the publishing industry
and seem to want to be involved in this discussion. What do you think of the
practice of offering the same renewal at differing prices? Sleazy? Good
business? I'm sure it is perfectly legal, but that does not mean it is
received well in the eyes of the consumer.

I saw the mail last night and yes, it did tick me off to see that I could
have saved five bucks by waiting. I was really not sure if it was worth
bothering with, writing a letter, tell others about it, or just forget about
it. Wow, to my surprise there is a full blown bona fide representative from
Woodworker's Journal making public commentary. Why not ask the
professional? The President of the United States takes all sorts of
questions. Why would these guys want to shy away when they have the stage,
front and center, to explain their position. That is what honest journalism
is about, open information, not a bunch of industry insiders patting each
other's backs. What do you, as a journalist, think?
--
Ed
http://pages.cthome.net/edhome/

In article , Rob
Johnstone wrote:

That's all clearly stated in the
letter that comes with the book.

The anger, as I read the posts, sprang from the fact that WJ sent
invoices for the "no obligation" book after it was sent.

If you're sending people a free gift, great. But don't bill them for it
later. Miss Manners will back me up.

djb

--
~ Stay Calm... Be Brave... Wait for the Signs ~
------------------------------------------------------
One site: http://www.balderstone.ca
The other site, with ww linkshttp://www.woodenwabbits.com

"Robatoy" wrote in message
...
A book shows up.
They hold in their hands something that isn't theirs. Do they send it
back and feel bad, or keep it and feel bad?
The only option left is to pay.
It's a dirty ploy to bilk nice people.
NOT cool.

EXactly

Robatoy wrote:

(Publisher's Clearing House
etc. (You MAY already be a wiener"))
******

And if you're not, we're going to make you one! )

In article , "joey"
wrote:


[snipperectomy]


Don't send something of measurable value without permission of the receiver


Joey, I couldn't agree more.
In a roundabout way, it's an invasion of some sort.
It's right up there with that call from a telemarketer.
That neighbour's dog doing his business on MY lawn.

I got ****ed off a couple of days ago when I paid money to go see a
movie (Hitchhikers Guide To the Galaxy..thought it was just GREAT).
Starting time was 7:30.
7:45 they were STILL running commercials for this, that, and the other.
WTF?? That is using time *I* paid for.

PS..when a telemarketer calls, I always ask for his/her home-phone
number so I can call them back....or I answer in a language I make up as
I go along.

Perhaps there is nothing sleazy and underhanded about
asking for more money in April than in May for the same product. ****ed me
off though. You really should stop and find out the facts before defending
someone that has questionable billing policies. Do all you guys in the
business do that? How about an insider tip as to the best time to renew
subscriptions to get the best deal? Most all of us on this newsgroup
subscribe to a couple of magazines and can use your insight to wind around
the path of multi billings to the best value.

I don't know about you, but where I come from we don't get upset when the
price of something we use and enjoy goes down. We take advantage of it. If
I were to buy something at Circuit City or Best Buy or Home Depot or Lowes
and the following week I see that the store has the some product on sale for
less money, I would go back to them and ask them to refund the difference.
In almost every case the store will gladly refund the price difference. In
fact, they often have special forms printed just to accomodate such
transactions. (The alternative is for them to go through the hassle
involved if you chose to return the object for a refund of the original
price and then re-buy it at the sale price, ro worse, from some other
vendor.)
Here's the good news: the same situation applies to magazines. When
Woodcraft Magazine was first announced, a lot of people around here balked
at the 6 issues for $39.95 subscription price. Nevertheless, some people
bit the bullet and subscribed anyway. But the publishers obviously got wind
of the dissatisfaction with what was perceived as a high price and did what
any smart business people would do: they made an adjustment in response to
the marketplace. Now you can subscribe to Woodcraft and get 7 issues for
$19.97, a price most people find more agreeable.
But what about those folks who already paid the higher price? All they have
to do is call the toll-free subscription number (in Woodcraft's case,
800-542-9125) and ask for an adjustment. I don't think they'll refund the
difference in cash but I am quite sure they would be happy to extend the
length of the subscription on a pro-rated basis so that your actual cost
will work out to the lower annual rate.
And I know this will probably upset a few people who never seem to be
satisfied, but in the same way that department stores don't automatically
mail you a check if they lower the price on something you already bought,
magazines aren't going to automatically extend your subscriptions. You
still have to pick up the phone and ask.

Lee
--
To e-mail, replace "bucketofspam" with "dleegordon"

The fact were stated plainly. I have the invoice in front
of me. If Rob is not the person to ask, if AJ is not to back him up, they
should not make statements about their publications in a public form. I did
just that. You decided to answer me. That is your choice, that is the
chance I took. Since Woodcraft is not involved in the practice here, AJ
should either sit back and be quiet or be willing to answer for his comments
also.

We (educated consumers) know that unsolicited merchandise can legally be
considered a "gift" and may be kept without obligation to either return it
or pay for it. And in that repect, I can completely sympathize with your
annoyance at being billed for the book you recieved.

However, what I cannot sympathize with is for someone to come in here and
speak his mind about the topic du jour and at the same time tell another
participant that he should "sit back and be quiet." You have the right to
grouse to your heart's content about what you perceive as shoddy marketing
practices. It is, after all, a public forum. So by the same token, I think
telling AJ to pipe down is out of line. (Note: I have no business telling
you not to express your opinion; I'm just letting you know that I disagree.)

Lee

--
To e-mail, replace "bucketofspam" with "dleegordon"

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
I have tha facts. The fact were stated plainly. I have the invoice in front
of me. If Rob is not the person to ask, if AJ is not to back him up, they
should not make statements about their publications in a public form. I did
just that. You decided to answer me. That is your choice, that is the
chance I took. Since Woodcraft is not involved in the practice here, AJ
should either sit back and be quiet or be willing to answer for his comments
also. Just as you should. You have been involved in the publishing industry
and seem to want to be involved in this discussion. What do you think of the
practice of offering the same renewal at differing prices? Sleazy? Good
business? I'm sure it is perfectly legal, but that does not mean it is
received well in the eyes of the consumer.

I saw the mail last night and yes, it did tick me off to see that I could
have saved five bucks by waiting. I was really not sure if it was worth
bothering with, writing a letter, tell others about it, or just forget about
it. Wow, to my surprise there is a full blown bona fide representative from
Woodworker's Journal making public commentary. Why not ask the
professional? The President of the United States takes all sorts of
questions. Why would these guys want to shy away when they have the stage,
front and center, to explain their position. That is what honest journalism
is about, open information, not a bunch of industry insiders patting each
other's backs. What do you, as a journalist, think?

First, I'd be glad that prices have gone down on something these days.
To my certain knowledge, lowering prices has been a time-tested way of
increasing sales. It bugs you? Life's like that.

Second, you didn't really ask questions. You sniped.

George Bush takes all sorts of questions? Pardon me while I wait for my
the laugh pains in my sides to subside.

Journalism is not about answering questions on an internet forum. I
read one guy supporting another who felt the first person was unfairly
castigated. You read a conspiracy, or something, of industry insiders
patting each other on the back.

We disagree.

Oh, if I were you, I'd toss the invoices.

Leon wrote:
"Charlie Self" wrote in message
oups.com...

Your questions are better addressed to those who control those aspect
of the publications, and that person is NOT the editor. Check under
such titles as Publisher, Circulation Director and so on. The editor
works with magazine content and layout. You really should stop and find
out the facts before you criticize those who do not deal with the
subject you're objecting to.


Good point BUT why did not the Circulation Director make his comments here
about the shipping of this no obligation book instead of the Publisher? ;~)

Why did your grandmother have children? I don't know the answer to
that, either.

"Lee Gordon" wrote in message
Since Woodcraft is not involved in the practice here, AJ
should either sit back and be quiet or be willing to answer for his
comments
also.


However, what I cannot sympathize with is for someone to come in here and
speak his mind about the topic du jour and at the same time tell another
participant that he should "sit back and be quiet." You have the right to
grouse to your heart's content about what you perceive as shoddy marketing
practices. It is, after all, a public forum. So by the same token, I
think
telling AJ to pipe down is out of line. (Note: I have no business
telling
you not to express your opinion; I'm just letting you know that I
disagree.)


Re=read what I wrote. He is able to make any comment he want, but must be
willing to take the heat for them also. Just like I did, just like you are.
If he wants to be an apologist for the publishing industry, he is a full
blown participant and subject to other's comments about his.
--
Ed
http://pages.cthome.net/edhome/

On 26 May 2005 01:17:52 -0700, the inscrutable "Charlie Self"
spake:

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
--megasnip--
Oh, if I were you, I'd toss the invoices.

Let me add a caveat to that advice, Charlie. If they have some sort of
auto invoicing system, it might trigger a collection agency tactic
next. Getting it handled in person might be a smarter idea. Nobody
needs their credit ruined over a stupid marketing stunt.


--
REMEMBER: First you pillage, then you burn.
---
http://diversify.com Full Service Website Development

In article ,
Larry Jaques wrote:

REMEMBER: First you pillage, then you burn.

................DAMN!!!

Rob, I appreciate that you've hit the group to explain your business
practices. I was a respondent in the last thread on this topic and for the
most part have no problem with what you're doing. I, however, got a bill and
no book. From the repeated threads on this topic, I knew what was going on
so I just round filed the bill and laughed at it. If I get repeated bills,
it will aggravate me though.

I've been involved professionally in this type of "negative solicitation"
practice and have found that it may make sense economically to do it this
way, but it has never made sense from a customer relations standpoint. You
always end up making people angry at you over the littlest things. Good will
is hard to come by in a business and a lot easier to lose over these kind of
practice.

Just my 2 cents

Gary in KC

P.S. My subscription is safe - I've always enjoyed your magazine.


"Rob Johnstone" wrote in message
m...
The Woodworker's Journal book

It is disturbing for me to read the thread about the Woodworker's
Journal book. I can assure you that there was no intention of causing
aggravation and for that I apologize.

"Charlie Self" wrote in message
oups.com...


Why did your grandmother have children? I don't know the answer to
that, either.

LOL.. Just yankin you chain Charlie...

"Charlie Self" wrote in message

First, I'd be glad that prices have gone down on something these days.
To my certain knowledge, lowering prices has been a time-tested way of
increasing sales. It bugs you? Life's like that.

Well, Charlie, you told me to get facts. Can I assume that you know ofr a
fact that prices did go down for everyone all the time? That is my
question. Is there stages of pricing depending on when and how you renew?
When is the best time to renew? Are you speaking for WJ or for yourself
with your statement above?


Second, you didn't really ask questions. You sniped.

One man's question is another man's snipe.



Journalism is not about answering questions on an internet forum. I
read one guy supporting another who felt the first person was unfairly
castigated. You read a conspiracy, or something, of industry insiders
patting each other on the back.

We disagree.

Oh, if I were you, I'd toss the invoices.

That was my first inclination. On later thought (Rob opened the door) I
decided that bringing this practice to the attention of others is important.
I can possibly save a few bucks for others that choose to buy the magazine.
I probably won't take the time to cancel, but I will definitely has second
thought at renewal time next year. This situation also determines what I do
with other discretionary spending. The Rockler family is involved with this
publication. Once the association is made, you have to wonder about other
things.

Ed,

When you renewed your subscription for $24.95 you got a deal/service/bargain
that you wanted. I assume you thought that was a fair price, that's why you
renewed. At a later point a the magazine changed the offer. Why they
lowered the price, doesn't really doesn't matter, they did. That's a
business decision they made. I don't understand why that should bother you.
You renewed your subscription. At a price you wanted to pay. If you feel
taken, ask for the reduced price or get a refund. Just remember, you got
what you wanted at a price you wanted to pay.

The Woulda, Coulda and Shoulda game is only to be played to learn and grow.
Learn something and move on.

Jack
Jacksonville, FL

--
"We are measured by the size and importance of the things that upset us."



"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
...

"Rob Johnstone" wrote in message
m...
The Woodworker's Journal book

The first book in a series like this always contains a "no strings
attached" offer. If you like it, and would like to see more, you can
buy it. If you don't like it, there are two choices. You can return
it, at our expense (return label is included), or simply consider it a
free gift and do with it as you will. That's all clearly stated in the
letter that comes with the book. As a side point, we have recently
added a good-sized "bubble" on the outside of the book packaging
that says "No obligation opportunity. Please read enclosed letter"
just to be very clear. Again, I apologize for the aggravation.

Rob Johnstone,
Editor, Woodworker's Journal

Thank you for replying to all the postings here. What you did not address
though, was the repeated invoicing for the singe book. Frankly, it ticked
me off when I got the second invoice. No, I did not send the book back,
no,
I did not join. I do not however, want to be badgered for my decision. I
know there is no obligation. You took a risk and in this case lot out.

Another matter is the cost of a subscription. I recently (and probably
foolishly) sent a check to re-up the magazine for $24.95. The check was
sent
and cashed in April. Now I get another request for me to re-subscribe,
but
the price has dropped to $19.95 for the same deal. What am I missing
here,
aside from 5 bucks? Obviously, waiting to the last minute is beneficial
to
me. Please address this concern also. I feel hoodwinked. The bill says
this is for "preferred subscribers" Was I not preferred last month?

So far, WJ has not been a happy decision for me. I don't know if I want
to
remain a subscriber knowing that I'm not always getting a fair deal up
front. If you want to check this, you have my name and my address in
Putnam, CT 06260.

I await patiently for your reply.
Ed Pawlowski

"Lee Gordon" wrote in message

I don't know about you, but where I come from we don't get upset when the
price of something we use and enjoy goes down. We take advantage of it.

My concern is about mulitiple pricing schemes. Did it go down for everyone?
Is this a tactic for renewal where the price drops as it gets closer to the
last issue? Do you have a problem with finding that out?


Here's the good news: the same situation applies to magazines. When
Woodcraft Magazine was first announced, a lot of people around here balked
at the 6 issues for $39.95 subscription price. Nevertheless, some people
bit the bullet and subscribed anyway. But the publishers obviously got
wind
of the dissatisfaction with what was perceived as a high price and did
what
any smart business people would do: they made an adjustment in response
to
the marketplace. Now you can subscribe to Woodcraft and get 7 issues
for
$19.97, a price most people find more agreeable.

Here is the bad news. I'm a Woodcraft customer. I get their weekly
newsletter and in one issue they announced the magazine and the opportunity
to subscribe. I clicked the link and it took me to the page whee I could
sign up for $39.95. I thought it was high and frankly, I expected that
loyal customers would have gotten a special deal. We did not.

What is so bad about that? I did not sign up at $19.95 either. One less
subscriber to help with their advertising rates. AJ did say t hat Woodcrat
Magazine is a separate entity from the Woodcraft stores. That is true, but
we tend to make those associations that they are somehow connected. It
makes me feel that Woodcraft is a rung or two lower on the ladder than they
could have been. Meantime, my local franchise is still a good store and I'll
probably continue to buy from them.
Ed

"Rob Johnstone" wrote in message
m...
The Woodworker's Journal book

It is disturbing for me to read the thread about the Woodworker's
Journal book. I can assure you that there was no intention of causing
aggravation and for that I apologize.

An open letter to Rob Johnstone... or, perhaps, beating a dead horse.

Mr. Johnstone,

I am a subscriber to Woodworkers Journal. It was the first WW magazine that
I subscribed to, I like it and I intend to continue receiving it.

I, too, received the "free" book. I didn't ask for the book, I don't want
to participate in the program and I don't want to go through the process of
sending it back.

I am probably not the oldest reader here, but I am far from the youngest,
therefore I know:

1. The technique used by your company to market this book is common
practice by many.
2. I am under no obligation to reurn the book nor to pay for it.
3. Multiple requests for payment should not be taken personally, they are
just the result of over zealous programing.

The hard part for me is receiving multiple requests for payment. The
rational part of me knows that this is just a computer generated technique
to generate additional revenue, however, on another level, it feels as if
you are attacking my name and reputation. I pay all my bills on time and I
get heartily ****ed off when someone (man or machine) claims I don't. If
the book offer was as noble as you described, you would have sent me ONE
bill period. If I didn't respond, you would let go and move on.

I acknowledge that, following a phone call to your offices, the billing has
stopped. (At least I think so.) The bad feeling remains and is shared by
others as evidenced by the shear number of posts on this topic.

I wish you success with your magazine, and your book club too. I sincerely
hope you modify your marketing techniques, however, to preserve to respect
my woodworkers have for your products.

Respectfully,

Bill Leonhardt

"Rob Johnstone" wrote in message
m...
The Woodworker's Journal book

It is disturbing for me to read the thread about the Woodworker's
Journal book. I can assure you that there was no intention of causing
aggravation and for that I apologize.

snip

Well. my two cents also -

For all those who are bitching - lighten up. I defend your right to bitch
but really! Have none of you ever heard of marketing? They deal in
statistics and percentages. Mail out 10,000 books like this - you'll get
some back, some will be kept and SOME will get paid for. That's the way it
works. That's the way it has ALWAYS worked. AND in spite of the bitching,
that's the way it will continue to work. Why? BECAUSE THE MARKETING METHOD
WORKS AND THEY MAKE MONEY!

It was stated that they are a "for profit" business.

I kept the book - IMHO it was so-so - not worth buying but it was free. I've
received two invoices since - guess what - I threw them out.

To those who worry that their credit rating will be destroyed..... I'd worry
about the sky falling first - that could be dangerous.

As far as different price levels for renewals - respectfully, what world
have you been living in? I have heard this same complaint, AND have made it
myself for the last 60 years. There were times when I found it easier to
cancel my current subscription to a magazine and get a refund and then re-up
at a lower rate than.

I have often had the impression that different areas of publishing don't
talk to each other.

Anyhow, as stated, that's *MY* two cents worth.

Keep sending out the free books boys - love freebies!!!!

Vic

"John Flatley" wrote in message
...
Ed,

When you renewed your subscription for $24.95 you got a
deal/service/bargain
that you wanted. I assume you thought that was a fair price, that's why
you
renewed. At a later point a the magazine changed the offer. Why they
lowered the price, doesn't really doesn't matter, they did. That's a
business decision they made. I don't understand why that should bother
you.
You renewed your subscription. At a price you wanted to pay. If you feel
taken, ask for the reduced price or get a refund. Just remember, you got
what you wanted at a price you wanted to pay.

The Woulda, Coulda and Shoulda game is only to be played to learn and
grow.
Learn something and move on.

I did learn something. Don't trust the first offer from a publisher. As I
stated, I did not intend to bother with anything, but the opportunity to
learn about it came up. So, why not learn? Is knowing the standard
practice a bad thing? Is knowing how to save money for the same
product/service a bad thing? Is sharing that information in a newsgroup a
bad thing?

I am curious to know if this is a standard industry practice or something
that recently happened to reduce prices. Why do you feel I'm wrong in
wanting to know that? Airlines sell tickets to the same destination on the
same plane at different rates at different times. I just want to know if
magazines do that.

I've been involved professionally in this type of "negative solicitation"
practice and have found that it may make sense economically to do it this
way, but it has never made sense from a customer relations standpoint. You
always end up making people angry at you over the littlest things. Good will
is hard to come by in a business and a lot easier to lose over these kind of
practice.

I'm not defending the practice of sending unsolicited merchandise and then
invoicing for it. However, this is not the only action that can cause
people to be come "angry over the littlest things." There are some people
are going to get angry no matter what you do. (It is conceivable that
somewhere in this world you could even find somebody who would complain
about the customer service from Lee Valley. g) There's just no pleasing
those folks so it's best not to become overly concerned about them.

Lee


--
To e-mail, replace "bucketofspam" with "dleegordon"

"John Flatley" wrote in message
...
Ed,

When you renewed your subscription for $24.95 you got a
deal/service/bargain
that you wanted. I assume you thought that was a fair price, that's why
you
renewed.


Since I replied to this, I received an email from WJ. With their
explanation, I seems I'm getting a good deal. I'm at work and my papers are
at home, but I have no reason to doubt what they told me.

I asked, they answered. That is what my message was about. Rob was willing
to come forward yesterday, one of his associates contacted me today. I
appreciate that and it helps keep a good relationship between us.
Ed

In article Q9nle.641$zb.194@trndny02, "Edwin Pawlowski" wrote:

I am curious to know if this is a standard industry practice or something
that recently happened to reduce prices. Why do you feel I'm wrong in
wanting to know that? Airlines sell tickets to the same destination on the
same plane at different rates at different times. I just want to know if
magazines do that.

I'm *sure* it's standard industry practice. ISTM that *most* magazines do
that: send out the initial renewal invoice six to nine months before your
subscription expires and hope you renew; then, if you don't, as your
subscription expiry date approaches, send out further invoices at
progressively lower prices until you finally take the hook.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?