Adam's apprentices have apparently banded together and formed a
scaffolding firm here in London.

Next door are having some work done, and they wanted to brace their
scaffolding against my house. Absolutely fine, I said.

They put one brace against the brickwork, and the other against a window!

Anyway, the neighbour is getting them round tomorrow to move it. But,
surely, the scaffolders knew perfectly well when they did it that it was
completely wrong. I guess they get away with it a lot of the time, so
they don't care. But, if I were a builder and noticed it, I certainly
would not feel safe up there, and I wouldn't use that firm again.

Would it not go through the window and the cost would probably bankrupt the
scaffolding company. Yes it seems that the scaffolding is often erected by a
contractor of the contractor.
Brian

--
----- --
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"GB" wrote in message
...
Adam's apprentices have apparently banded together and formed a
scaffolding firm here in London.

Next door are having some work done, and they wanted to brace their
scaffolding against my house. Absolutely fine, I said.

They put one brace against the brickwork, and the other against a window!

Anyway, the neighbour is getting them round tomorrow to move it. But,
surely, the scaffolders knew perfectly well when they did it that it was
completely wrong. I guess they get away with it a lot of the time, so they
don't care. But, if I were a builder and noticed it, I certainly would not
feel safe up there, and I wouldn't use that firm again.

On 04/12/2019 16:16, Brian Gaff (Sofa 2) wrote:
Would it not go through the window and the cost would probably bankrupt the
scaffolding company. Yes it seems that the scaffolding is often erected by a
contractor of the contractor.
Brian



I had scaffolding at the front of my house during the summer and around
6 weeks later my neighbour had the same. Two different companies and it
was evident from how the scaffolding was erected and dismantled[1] that
the company that I employed knew what they were doing and the company
that my neighbour used were somewhat lacking in skill.

Price guide for anyone interested (SE Essex): £360 incl. VAT. I had the
scaffolding up for around 5 weeks with no extra charges.

[1]
Mid-terrace houses and 3 stage scaffolding to front of house up to roof
ridge above bay windows. My house, when dismantling it was less than one
hour from the truck tuning up, 3 men to dismantle and load the truck to
the truck leaving. My neighbours scaffolding company nearer 4 hours to
do the same job with 3 men.



--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 04/12/2019 15:43, GB wrote:
Adam's apprentices have apparently banded together and formed a
scaffolding firm here in London.

Next door are having some work done, and they wanted to brace their
scaffolding against my house. Absolutely fine, I said.

They put one brace against the brickwork, and the other against a window!

Anyway, the neighbour is getting them round tomorrow to move it. But,
surely, the scaffolders knew perfectly well when they did it that it was
completely wrong. I guess they get away with it a lot of the time, so
they don't care. But, if I were a builder and noticed it, I certainly
would not feel safe up there, and I wouldn't use that firm again.






Should put a photo up of that.

This time last year a third year apprentice was wiring new-builds on his
own. I worked through through the first one with him and made sure he
was happy with what he had to do. He completed all houses with no cock ups.

This year we have 2 third year apprentices. Neither of them can fit a
back box straight, wire up a two way lightswitch etc etc. Due to the
minimum wage rules and the fact we run a business then they will
probably soon be laid off.


--
Adam

On Wednesday, 4 December 2019 18:03:51 UTC, ARW wrote:
This year we have 2 third year apprentices. Neither of them can fit a
back box straight, wire up a two way lightswitch etc etc.

Could I suggest that being able to wire up a two way lightswitch should be an *entry criterion* to being an electrical apprentice?

Fairly sure I could have done it at 16.

In fact I was probably doing it about 8, with a battery and paperclips and brass paper fasteners for switches :-)

If someone hasn't got to that stage by 16, where is the evidence of their interest and ability?

Owain

Admittedly my back boxes aren't always straight, but I blame the bricks...

wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, 4 December 2019 18:03:51 UTC, ARW wrote:
This year we have 2 third year apprentices. Neither of them can fit a
back box straight, wire up a two way lightswitch etc etc.

Could I suggest that being able to wire up a two way lightswitch
should be an *entry criterion* to being an electrical apprentice?

Problem is that they have to take what they
can get or end up with no apprentices at all.
Better to have some that can do some jobs
than no apprentices at all.

Fairly sure I could have done it at 16.

I know I could, because I did rather younger than that.

In fact I was probably doing it about 8, with a battery
and paperclips and brass paper fasteners for switches :-)

Yeah, me too. I did all the electrical work that needed to
be done for the parents and they did do full scale renos
of the houses they owned at that sort of my age.

If someone hasn't got to that stage by 16, where
is the evidence of their interest and ability?

Sure, but see above.

On 04/12/2019 20:11, wrote:
On Wednesday, 4 December 2019 18:03:51 UTC, ARW wrote:
This year we have 2 third year apprentices. Neither of them can fit a
back box straight, wire up a two way lightswitch etc etc.

Could I suggest that being able to wire up a two way lightswitch should be an *entry criterion* to being an electrical apprentice?

Fairly sure I could have done it at 16.

In fact I was probably doing it about 8, with a battery and paperclips and brass paper fasteners for switches :-)

I think I was about 12 or 13 when I installed the two mains spotlights,
pair of dimmers and changed the switch near the door of my bedroom from
a single gang to a 3-gang, with two way switching on both the spotlights.

SteveW

On Thu, 5 Dec 2019 08:57:01 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:


Problem is that

Problem is that you are a trolling piece of senile ****!

FLUSH the rest of your troll**** unread

--
Website (from 2007) dedicated to the 85-year-old trolling senile
cretin from Oz:
https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/r...d-faq.2973853/

Not a new phenomenon though, back when we first got broadband the first
chap, very young came to fit the junction box on the wall, when later on
after the whole thing had been in for a year or so, the box fell off the
wall, the guy had used a screw straight into the brickwork and a nail in the
other screw.

Brian

--
----- --
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"ARW" wrote in message
...
On 04/12/2019 15:43, GB wrote:
Adam's apprentices have apparently banded together and formed a
scaffolding firm here in London.

Next door are having some work done, and they wanted to brace their
scaffolding against my house. Absolutely fine, I said.

They put one brace against the brickwork, and the other against a window!

Anyway, the neighbour is getting them round tomorrow to move it. But,
surely, the scaffolders knew perfectly well when they did it that it was
completely wrong. I guess they get away with it a lot of the time, so
they don't care. But, if I were a builder and noticed it, I certainly
would not feel safe up there, and I wouldn't use that firm again.






Should put a photo up of that.

This time last year a third year apprentice was wiring new-builds on his
own. I worked through through the first one with him and made sure he was
happy with what he had to do. He completed all houses with no cock ups.

This year we have 2 third year apprentices. Neither of them can fit a back
box straight, wire up a two way lightswitch etc etc. Due to the minimum
wage rules and the fact we run a business then they will probably soon be
laid off.


--
Adam

On Wednesday, 4 December 2019 18:03:51 UTC, ARW wrote:

This year we have 2 third year apprentices. Neither of them can fit a
back box straight, wire up a two way lightswitch etc etc. Due to the
minimum wage rules and the fact we run a business then they will
probably soon be laid off.

I've just had a 2nd year electronic engineering student studying for a degree ask me what the connector on the end of the soldering iron is for, I said to connect to the power supply, what power supply ? was the next question.

On 04/12/2019 22:00, Steve Walker wrote:
On 04/12/2019 20:11, wrote:
On Wednesday, 4 December 2019 18:03:51 UTC, ARWÂ* wrote:
This year we have 2 third year apprentices. Neither of them can fit a
back box straight, wire up a two way lightswitch etc etc.

Could I suggest that being able to wire up a two way lightswitch
should be an *entry criterion* to being an electrical apprentice?

Fairly sure I could have done it at 16.

In fact I was probably doing it about 8, with a battery and paperclips
and brass paper fasteners for switches :-)

I think I was about 12 or 13 when I installed the two mains spotlights,
pair of dimmers and changed the switch near the door of my bedroom from
a single gang to a 3-gang, with two way switching on both the spotlights.


When they start with use they cannot use a screwdriver. Things were
different 10 years ago, they get worse every year in most cases. Every
so often you get a good one.


--
Adam

"ARW" wrote in message
...
On 04/12/2019 22:00, Steve Walker wrote:
On 04/12/2019 20:11, wrote:
On Wednesday, 4 December 2019 18:03:51 UTC, ARW wrote:
This year we have 2 third year apprentices. Neither of them can fit a
back box straight, wire up a two way lightswitch etc etc.

Could I suggest that being able to wire up a two way lightswitch should
be an *entry criterion* to being an electrical apprentice?

Fairly sure I could have done it at 16.

In fact I was probably doing it about 8, with a battery and paperclips
and brass paper fasteners for switches :-)

I think I was about 12 or 13 when I installed the two mains spotlights,
pair of dimmers and changed the switch near the door of my bedroom from a
single gang to a 3-gang, with two way switching on both the spotlights.

When they start with use they cannot use a screwdriver.

Fark.

Things were different 10 years ago, they get worse every year in most
cases.

Wonder why in such a short time. Maybe the schools
have stopped doing that stuff now, there. Presumably
you should know that from the midget in residence at
your place who likely is as big as you now.

Every so often you get a good one.

Yeah, the best of them dont need schools to teach stuff like that.

On Fri, 6 Dec 2019 05:42:32 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH the abnormal senile cretin's latest troll****

05:42??? LMAO! Still not able to get back to bed, you clinically insane
subnormal senile idiot?

--
about senile Rot Speed:
"This is like having a conversation with someone with brain damage."
MID:

In article ,
says...


When they start with use they cannot use a screwdriver. Things were
different 10 years ago, they get worse every year in most cases. Every
so often you get a good one.

Why doesn't your boss give potential apprentices a simple test
to find out if they have even the slightest knowledge of the
subject they wish to be paid to learn about?

For example:

1. What is the UK mains voltage? (Accept both 240 & 230,
though the latter answer might indicate a better knowledge of
the subject.)

2. What are the colours of the wires in a 3-core mains lead?

L?
N?
E?

3. [Line drawing of the inside of a 13A plug.]

On the drawing, using the letters C, E, F, L & N, show the
Live, Neutral and Earth connections and the position of the
Fuse and Cable clamp.

I'm sure you can think up a few more simple general knowledge
questions in similar vein which would, at least, indicate that
they have a head on their shoulders and are not complete and
utter thickos - which many of your apprentces seemm to be!

--

Terry

On 05/12/2019 22:16, Terry Casey wrote:
In article ,
says...


When they start with use they cannot use a screwdriver. Things were
different 10 years ago, they get worse every year in most cases. Every
so often you get a good one.

Why doesn't your boss give potential apprentices a simple test
to find out if they have even the slightest knowledge of the
subject they wish to be paid to learn about?

For example:

1. What is the UK mains voltage? (Accept both 240 & 230,
though the latter answer might indicate a better knowledge of
the subject.)

2. What are the colours of the wires in a 3-core mains lead?

L?
N?
E?

3. [Line drawing of the inside of a 13A plug.]

On the drawing, using the letters C, E, F, L & N, show the
Live, Neutral and Earth connections and the position of the
Fuse and Cable clamp.

I'm sure you can think up a few more simple general knowledge
questions in similar vein which would, at least, indicate that
they have a head on their shoulders and are not complete and
utter thickos - which many of your apprentces seemm to be!


I once asked one of them how old they were.

Just myself and him in the same room so nothing too complicated.

I think his answer was some sort of a question.

Me "How old are you?"
Apprentice "Who me?"

It's easier just to not talk to some of them.




--
Adam

In article ,
says...

I was born in 1944. I passed the 11 Plus and went to a Church
school, which covered a large area. It was also a Secondary
Modern for the local area. The Grammar side had 3 forms, A, B,
& C whilst the Secondary Modern side had two forms, D & E.

After WWII, 'The Bulge' started. By the time I left school,
the fisrt year extended to 1H!

Of course, not long after I left school and started work, the
bulge started to emerge onto the employment market.

Our Group Scoutmaster used to chat to us older boys after
weekly meetings and gave the lads who were on the verge of
leaving school a warning.

He worked for Van den Bergh & Jurgens (part of Unilever) who
manufactured Stork Margerine in the main.

Their apprenticeships were well respected and sought after and
they were now being inundated with applications, so they had
found a devious way of reducing the numbers.

They held an examination for all applicant, each of whom was
provided with:

A sheet of blotting paper;
A rough sheet;
An answer paper and
A question paper.

At the top of the question paper it said "ALL WORKING MUST BE
SHOWN ON THE ANSWER PAPER".

At the end of the exam, every sheet of paper was collected
from each desk. If anything had been scribbled on any piece of
paper other than the answer paper, it was an instant fail.
The answer paper might have been 100% correct but it wan't
even marked.

Reason for failure? 'Cannot obey a simple instruction.'



--

Terry

In article ,
says...

On 05/12/2019 22:16, Terry Casey wrote:
In article ,
says...


When they start with use they cannot use a screwdriver. Things were
different 10 years ago, they get worse every year in most cases. Every
so often you get a good one.

Why doesn't your boss give potential apprentices a simple test
to find out if they have even the slightest knowledge of the
subject they wish to be paid to learn about?

For example:

1. What is the UK mains voltage? (Accept both 240 & 230,
though the latter answer might indicate a better knowledge of
the subject.)

2. What are the colours of the wires in a 3-core mains lead?

L?
N?
E?

3. [Line drawing of the inside of a 13A plug.]

On the drawing, using the letters C, E, F, L & N, show the
Live, Neutral and Earth connections and the position of the
Fuse and Cable clamp.

I'm sure you can think up a few more simple general knowledge
questions in similar vein which would, at least, indicate that
they have a head on their shoulders and are not complete and
utter thickos - which many of your apprentces seemm to be!


I once asked one of them how old they were.

Just myself and him in the same room so nothing too complicated.

I think his answer was some sort of a question.

Me "How old are you?"
Apprentice "Who me?"

It's easier just to not talk to some of them.

The point I was trying to make is that they shouldn't even be
there for you to (attempt to) talk to them in the first place!

--

Terry

On 05/12/2019 22:16, Terry Casey wrote:
In article ,
says...


When they start with use they cannot use a screwdriver. Things were
different 10 years ago, they get worse every year in most cases. Every
so often you get a good one.

Why doesn't your boss give potential apprentices a simple test
to find out if they have even the slightest knowledge of the
subject they wish to be paid to learn about?

For example:

1. What is the UK mains voltage? (Accept both 240 & 230,
though the latter answer might indicate a better knowledge of
the subject.)

2. What are the colours of the wires in a 3-core mains lead?

L?
N?
E?

3. [Line drawing of the inside of a 13A plug.]

On the drawing, using the letters C, E, F, L & N, show the
Live, Neutral and Earth connections and the position of the
Fuse and Cable clamp.


ISTM such questions would test how much they /already/ know - which
could vary enormously through chance (eg whether or not they had a
parent who did stuff). What the employer wants to know* is whether or
not they have what it takes to /become/ an electrician. I'd have
thought that was better assessed by testing things all school leavers
ought to know - e.g. basic arithmetic, algebra and comprehension.

Oh, and a test based on a 13A plug would also tend to put recent
immigrants at a disadvantage so arguably unlawful as indirect racial
discrimination.

*assuming they want to train apprentices rather than, say, just torment
Adam

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

"Terry Casey" wrote in message
...
In article ,
says...


When they start with use they cannot use a screwdriver. Things were
different 10 years ago, they get worse every year in most cases. Every
so often you get a good one.

Why doesn't your boss give potential apprentices a simple test
to find out if they have even the slightest knowledge of the
subject they wish to be paid to learn about?

Because if they don't even know how to use
a screwdriver,they wont get any apprentices.

For example:

1. What is the UK mains voltage? (Accept both 240 & 230,
though the latter answer might indicate a better knowledge of
the subject.)

But says nothing useful about how well they will be
able to learn how to install a back box lined up
properly or do two way light switch wiring.

2. What are the colours of the wires in a 3-core mains lead?

Ditto.

L?
N?
E?

3. [Line drawing of the inside of a 13A plug.]

Ditto and they vary too much..

On the drawing, using the letters C, E, F, L & N, show the
Live, Neutral and Earth connections and the position of the
Fuse and Cable clamp.

I'm sure you can think up a few more simple general knowledge
questions in similar vein which would, at least, indicate that
they have a head on their shoulders and are not complete and
utter thickos - which many of your apprentces seemm to be!

But would likely produce **** all apprentices.

"Terry Casey" wrote in message
...
In article ,
says...

I was born in 1944. I passed the 11 Plus and went to a Church
school, which covered a large area. It was also a Secondary
Modern for the local area. The Grammar side had 3 forms, A, B,
& C whilst the Secondary Modern side had two forms, D & E.

After WWII, 'The Bulge' started. By the time I left school,
the fisrt year extended to 1H!

Of course, not long after I left school and started work, the
bulge started to emerge onto the employment market.

Our Group Scoutmaster used to chat to us older boys after
weekly meetings and gave the lads who were on the verge of
leaving school a warning.

He worked for Van den Bergh & Jurgens (part of Unilever) who
manufactured Stork Margerine in the main.

Their apprenticeships were well respected and sought after and
they were now being inundated with applications, so they had
found a devious way of reducing the numbers.

They held an examination for all applicant, each of whom was
provided with:

A sheet of blotting paper;
A rough sheet;
An answer paper and
A question paper.

At the top of the question paper it said "ALL WORKING MUST BE
SHOWN ON THE ANSWER PAPER".

At the end of the exam, every sheet of paper was collected
from each desk. If anything had been scribbled on any piece of
paper other than the answer paper, it was an instant fail.
The answer paper might have been 100% correct but it wan't
even marked.

Reason for failure? 'Cannot obey a simple instruction.'

Only works when there are a lot more applicants than you need.

Bet that isnt true with adam's operation anymore.

"Robin" wrote in message
...
On 05/12/2019 22:16, Terry Casey wrote:
In article ,
says...


When they start with use they cannot use a screwdriver. Things were
different 10 years ago, they get worse every year in most cases. Every
so often you get a good one.

Why doesn't your boss give potential apprentices a simple test
to find out if they have even the slightest knowledge of the
subject they wish to be paid to learn about?

For example:

1. What is the UK mains voltage? (Accept both 240 & 230,
though the latter answer might indicate a better knowledge of
the subject.)

2. What are the colours of the wires in a 3-core mains lead?

L?
N?
E?

3. [Line drawing of the inside of a 13A plug.]

On the drawing, using the letters C, E, F, L & N, show the
Live, Neutral and Earth connections and the position of the
Fuse and Cable clamp.


ISTM such questions would test how much they /already/ know - which could
vary enormously through chance (eg whether or not they had a parent who
did stuff). What the employer wants to know* is whether or not they have
what it takes to /become/ an electrician. I'd have thought that was
better assessed by testing things all school leavers ought to know - e.g.
basic arithmetic, algebra and comprehension.

Cant see that algebra is much use to an electrician.

And what you need is kids that can do simple mechanical
stuff like get the back box horizontal etc and who realise
why that matters.

Oh, and a test based on a 13A plug would also tend to put recent
immigrants at a disadvantage so arguably unlawful as indirect racial
discrimination.

*assuming they want to train apprentices rather than, say, just torment
Adam

Terry Casey wrote:

In article ,
says...

I was born in 1944. I passed the 11 Plus and went to a Church
school, which covered a large area. It was also a Secondary
Modern for the local area. The Grammar side had 3 forms, A, B,
& C whilst the Secondary Modern side had two forms, D & E.

After WWII, 'The Bulge' started. By the time I left school,
the fisrt year extended to 1H!

Of course, not long after I left school and started work, the
bulge started to emerge onto the employment market.

Our Group Scoutmaster used to chat to us older boys after
weekly meetings and gave the lads who were on the verge of
leaving school a warning.

He worked for Van den Bergh & Jurgens (part of Unilever) who
manufactured Stork Margerine in the main.

Their apprenticeships were well respected and sought after and
they were now being inundated with applications, so they had
found a devious way of reducing the numbers.

They held an examination for all applicant, each of whom was
provided with:

A sheet of blotting paper;
A rough sheet;
An answer paper and
A question paper.

At the top of the question paper it said "ALL WORKING MUST BE
SHOWN ON THE ANSWER PAPER".

At the end of the exam, every sheet of paper was collected
from each desk. If anything had been scribbled on any piece of
paper other than the answer paper, it was an instant fail.
The answer paper might have been 100% correct but it wan't
even marked.

Reason for failure? 'Cannot obey a simple instruction.'

That would make sense if they had said all working should be *confned*
to the answer paper. The instructions as you quote them do *not*
forbid doing rough working on the blotter and transcribing it in neater
writing to the answer paper.

--

Roger Hayter

On 06/12/2019 01:01, Roger Hayter wrote:
Terry Casey wrote:

In article ,
says...

I was born in 1944. I passed the 11 Plus and went to a Church
school, which covered a large area. It was also a Secondary
Modern for the local area. The Grammar side had 3 forms, A, B,
& C whilst the Secondary Modern side had two forms, D & E.

After WWII, 'The Bulge' started. By the time I left school,
the fisrt year extended to 1H!

Of course, not long after I left school and started work, the
bulge started to emerge onto the employment market.

Our Group Scoutmaster used to chat to us older boys after
weekly meetings and gave the lads who were on the verge of
leaving school a warning.

He worked for Van den Bergh & Jurgens (part of Unilever) who
manufactured Stork Margerine in the main.

Their apprenticeships were well respected and sought after and
they were now being inundated with applications, so they had
found a devious way of reducing the numbers.

They held an examination for all applicant, each of whom was
provided with:

A sheet of blotting paper;
A rough sheet;
An answer paper and
A question paper.

At the top of the question paper it said "ALL WORKING MUST BE
SHOWN ON THE ANSWER PAPER".

At the end of the exam, every sheet of paper was collected
from each desk. If anything had been scribbled on any piece of
paper other than the answer paper, it was an instant fail.
The answer paper might have been 100% correct but it wan't
even marked.

Reason for failure? 'Cannot obey a simple instruction.'

That would make sense if they had said all working should be *confned*
to the answer paper. The instructions as you quote them do *not*
forbid doing rough working on the blotter and transcribing it in neater
writing to the answer paper.


Your problem is that you want someone who actually can think.
It would seem that in Terry's case they wanted mindless robots.

On 05/12/2019 18:24, ARW wrote:


When they start with use they cannot use a screwdriver. Things were
different 10 years ago, they get worse every year in most cases. Every
so often you get a good one.

The company that I used to work for seemed able to weed out most of the
dross before offering an apprenticeship and then gave short classroom
type practical training on the basics before unleashing them into the
general workforce.


--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 05/12/2019 22:56, Robin wrote:

ISTM such questions would test how much they /already/ know - which
could vary enormously through chance (eg whether or not they had a
parent who did stuff).Â* What the employer wants to know* is whether or
not they have what it takes to /become/ an electrician.Â* I'd have
thought that was better assessed by testing things all school leavers
ought to know - e.g. basic arithmetic, algebra and comprehension.

A decent interview should sort that out. Its not only what they know but
their attitude to actually working.

I'm sure that most reading this group have HAD to fit a mains plug but
these day they all come moulded onto the cable. We all probably have
experience of a consumer unit where a duff fuse has had to be replaced
with some new fuse wire, silver paper from a fag packet, paper clip,
nail etc. but these days flicking a switch is all that is required reset
the circuit.


--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 05/12/2019 14:05, whisky-dave wrote:
On Wednesday, 4 December 2019 18:03:51 UTC, ARW wrote:

This year we have 2 third year apprentices. Neither of them can fit a
back box straight, wire up a two way lightswitch etc etc. Due to the
minimum wage rules and the fact we run a business then they will
probably soon be laid off.

I've just had a 2nd year electronic engineering student studying for a degree ask me what the connector on the end of the soldering iron is for, I said to connect to the power supply, what power supply ? was the next question.



A fair question if he has only been given the working end of a
temperature controlled soldering iron and no control box. Or was the
connector on the end of the lead a mains plug?

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

"Terry Casey" wrote in message
...
In article ,
says...

I was born in 1944. I passed the 11 Plus and went to a Church
school, which covered a large area. It was also a Secondary
Modern for the local area. The Grammar side had 3 forms, A, B,
& C whilst the Secondary Modern side had two forms, D & E.

After WWII, 'The Bulge' started. By the time I left school,
the fisrt year extended to 1H!

Of course, not long after I left school and started work, the
bulge started to emerge onto the employment market.

Our Group Scoutmaster used to chat to us older boys after
weekly meetings and gave the lads who were on the verge of
leaving school a warning.

He worked for Van den Bergh & Jurgens (part of Unilever) who
manufactured Stork Margerine in the main.

Their apprenticeships were well respected and sought after and
they were now being inundated with applications, so they had
found a devious way of reducing the numbers.

They held an examination for all applicant, each of whom was
provided with:

A sheet of blotting paper;
A rough sheet;
An answer paper and
A question paper.

At the top of the question paper it said "ALL WORKING MUST BE
SHOWN ON THE ANSWER PAPER".

At the end of the exam, every sheet of paper was collected
from each desk. If anything had been scribbled on any piece of
paper other than the answer paper, it was an instant fail.
The answer paper might have been 100% correct but it wan't
even marked.

Reason for failure? 'Cannot obey a simple instruction.'

Which is clearly nonsense.

If at the top of the question paper it had said

"ALL WORKING MUST BE SHOWN AND *ONLY* ON THE ANSWER PAPER"

Then fair enough. But it didn't, did it ?

But as it stands had any of the candidates first done their
workings on the rough sheet, and then copied all them exactly
but more neatly on the answer paper, then they'd have
satisfied the instruction.

In fact they might even have been more satisfactory
candidates. As being able to do rough workings (as was
implied by the provision of the rough sheet) in line
with their thought processes, rather than being slowed down
by the need to be neat, and copying out the workings
afterwards would probably be a far better way of
proceeding.

You won't necesarily choose smart people by setting trick
questions. And it is a trick given the provision of a
blank sheet of paper. All you're doing is bolstering the
ego of the smartarse who came up with the flawed idea,


michael adams

....

On Fri, 6 Dec 2019 10:45:10 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:


Cant see that algebra is much use to an electrician.

Yeah, you are that demented, senile Rodent!

--
Website (from 2007) dedicated to the 85-year-old trolling senile
cretin from Oz:
https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/r...d-faq.2973853/

On Fri, 6 Dec 2019 10:36:48 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:


But would likely produce **** all apprentices.

Now ALSO an expert in ARW's apprentices, you clinically insane senile troll
from Oz? Of COURS!!! LOL

--
about senile Rot Speed:
"This is like having a conversation with someone with brain damage."
MID:

On Fri, 6 Dec 2019 10:42:00 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:


Reason for failure? 'Cannot obey a simple instruction.'

Only works when there are a lot more applicants than you need.

Bet that isnt true with adam's operation anymore.

The auto-contradicting senile asshole from Oz struck, again! LOL

--
Kerr-Mudd,John addressing senile Rot:
"Auto-contradictor Rod is back! (in the KF)"
MID:

wrote:
On Wednesday, 4 December 2019 18:03:51 UTC, ARW wrote:
This year we have 2 third year apprentices. Neither of them can fit a
back box straight, wire up a two way lightswitch etc etc.

Could I suggest that being able to wire up a two way lightswitch should
be an *entry criterion* to being an electrical apprentice?

Fairly sure I could have done it at 16.

In fact I was probably doing it about 8, with a battery and paperclips
and brass paper fasteners for switches :-)

If someone hasn't got to that stage by 16, where is the evidence of their
interest and ability?

Owain

Admittedly my back boxes aren't always straight, but I blame the bricks...



That kind of €˜tinkering by children is pretty well a thing of the past.

Toys like Mecanno, the various electronic assembly toys, books which
encouraged youngsters to experiment with basic science etc, are no longer
popular.

Like you, I was tinkering with basic electrical things at 8 or so, I went
on to gain an engineering degree, and worked in industry.

Now too many youngsters want to be €˜celebrities.

Without wishing to be racist etc, back in the 80s I was working in a
developing country on some military equipment along side some Americans.
Some local Army person were assigned to help us. One of the Americans made
some disparaging comments about the technical skills of his local
assistants while we were having dinner one evening. As one of his
colleagues pointed out, the soldiers had probably never had even a bicycle
as a child let alone worked on anything as complicated as the kit they now
were faced with. By not ensuring our children explore basic technology etc
we are placing them in the same position. Playing computer games / having
the latest mobile phone isnt basic technology.

In message , michael
adams writes

Snip
In fact they might even have been more satisfactory
candidates. As being able to do rough workings (as was
implied by the provision of the rough sheet) in line
with their thought processes, rather than being slowed down
by the need to be neat, and copying out the workings
afterwards would probably be a far better way of
proceeding.

You won't necesarily choose smart people by setting trick
questions. And it is a trick given the provision of a
blank sheet of paper. All you're doing is bolstering the
ego of the smartarse who came up with the flawed idea,

I attended a selection session for an apprentice position at George
Kents (water meters now long gone).

The applicants were handed several sheets of paper and asked to sketch
what mechanisms were hidden behind plywood sheets held up by an
assistant.

Visible from the front were side projections which moved
up/down/sideways/rotated etc. due to whatever part the assistant moved.

Sadly I was very poor at doing this and the interviewer suggested I
might do better as an electrical engineer!


michael adams

...



--
Tim Lamb

On Friday, 6 December 2019 09:40:39 UTC, Brian Reay wrote:
That kind of €˜tinkering by children is pretty well a thing of the past.
....
Without wishing to be racist etc, back in the 80s I was working in a
developing country on some military equipment along side some Americans.

OTOH in developing countries tinkering is much more prevalent and if the soldiers *had* had a bicycle as children [1] they would probably have known how to change the tyre, patch the inner tube, fix the chain etc and even weld the frame with a couple of wires from the light socket and a home-made transformer.

Owain



[1] Yes, I do mean one bike, many children :-)

On 06/12/2019 01:01, Roger Hayter wrote:


That would make sense if they had said all working should be *confned*
to the answer paper. The instructions as you quote them do *not*
forbid doing rough working on the blotter and transcribing it in neater
writing to the answer paper.

Indeed. I thought that- the instruction is ambiguous, and I'd interpret
them as Roger states.

On Thursday, 5 December 2019 23:45:24 UTC, Rod Speed wrote:
Cant see that algebra is much use to an electrician.

Of course not, electricians /never/ calculate anything using an equation do they.

Owain

In article ,
"michael adams" mjadams25@ukonline wrote:

Reason for failure? 'Cannot obey a simple instruction.'

Which is clearly nonsense.

If at the top of the question paper it had said

"ALL WORKING MUST BE SHOWN AND *ONLY* ON THE ANSWER PAPER"

Then fair enough. But it didn't, did it ?

But as it stands had any of the candidates first done their
workings on the rough sheet, and then copied all them exactly
but more neatly on the answer paper, then they'd have
satisfied the instruction.

In fact they might even have been more satisfactory
candidates. As being able to do rough workings (as was
implied by the provision of the rough sheet) in line
with their thought processes, rather than being slowed down
by the need to be neat, and copying out the workings
afterwards would probably be a far better way of
proceeding.

You won't necesarily choose smart people by setting trick
questions. And it is a trick given the provision of a
blank sheet of paper. All you're doing is bolstering the
ego of the smartarse who came up with the flawed idea,

What a very good response, Michael!

IME, people who ever said to me, in my long life, [you] 'cannot obey a
simple instruction' were the type of mild bullyboys who made it to
Corporal, and never got further.

John

On Fri, 6 Dec 2019 01:01:32 +0000, Roger Hayter wrote:

They held an examination for all applicant, each of whom was
provided with:

A sheet of blotting paper;
A rough sheet;
An answer paper and
A question paper.

At the top of the question paper it said "ALL WORKING MUST BE
SHOWN ON THE ANSWER PAPER".

At the end of the exam, every sheet of paper was collected
from each desk. If anything had been scribbled on any piece of
paper other than the answer paper, it was an instant fail.
The answer paper might have been 100% correct but it wan't
even marked.

Reason for failure? 'Cannot obey a simple instruction.'

That would make sense if they had said all working should be *confned*
to the answer paper. The instructions as you quote them do *not*
forbid doing rough working on the blotter and transcribing it in neater
writing to the answer paper.

Or even on the rough paper. B-)

Or workings trying out various methods to solve the problem before
transcribing all the workings of the choosen method to the answer
paper.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 06/12/2019 10:04, wrote:
On Thursday, 5 December 2019 23:45:24 UTC, Rod Speed wrote:
Cant see that algebra is much use to an electrician.

Of course not, electricians /never/ calculate anything using an equation do they.

Owain

Electricians don't, no. Electrical engineers, however, do.


--
"And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch".

Gospel of St. Mathew 15:14

On Fri, 6 Dec 2019 09:40:36 +0000 (UTC), Brian Reay wrote:

That kind of tinkering by children is pretty well a thing of the
past.

Toys like Mecanno, the various electronic assembly toys, books which
encouraged youngsters to experiment with basic science etc, are no
longer popular.

But still easyly available, so someone must be buying them.

The world is a very different place these days. Kids have other ways
of "building" things that have far faster, idea, build, try, fail,
new idea loops. And for things that are all but impossible to do in
the real world. Anything from spacecraft or land based vehicles to
electronic circuits into discreet component logic blocks into
computers...

What they don't teach are the physical skills, like how to use a
screwdriver, hammer, spanner, etc. How various materials behave under
various stress's (heat, cold, tension, compression, bending,
twisting...).

--
Cheers
Dave.

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 06/12/2019 10:04, wrote:
On Thursday, 5 December 2019 23:45:24 UTC, Rod Speed wrote:
Cant see that algebra is much use to an electrician.

Of course not, electricians /never/ calculate anything using an equation
do they.

Owain

Electricians don't, no. Electrical engineers, however, do.

But they do have to check wire temperatures under load and fautl
conditions, voltage drop and fault currents and things like that in
principle. Also do calculations for commissioning checks. The fact you
could rewire an average house with average materials and never exceed
any limits doesn't mean a professional electrician shouldn't bother.
And not all wiring is an average house.
--

Roger Hayter