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Adam's apprentices
Adam's apprentices have apparently banded together and formed a
scaffolding firm here in London. Next door are having some work done, and they wanted to brace their scaffolding against my house. Absolutely fine, I said. They put one brace against the brickwork, and the other against a window! Anyway, the neighbour is getting them round tomorrow to move it. But, surely, the scaffolders knew perfectly well when they did it that it was completely wrong. I guess they get away with it a lot of the time, so they don't care. But, if I were a builder and noticed it, I certainly would not feel safe up there, and I wouldn't use that firm again. |
Adam's apprentices
On 04/12/2019 16:16, Brian Gaff (Sofa 2) wrote:
Would it not go through the window and the cost would probably bankrupt the scaffolding company. Yes it seems that the scaffolding is often erected by a contractor of the contractor. Brian I had scaffolding at the front of my house during the summer and around 6 weeks later my neighbour had the same. Two different companies and it was evident from how the scaffolding was erected and dismantled[1] that the company that I employed knew what they were doing and the company that my neighbour used were somewhat lacking in skill. Price guide for anyone interested (SE Essex): £360 incl. VAT. I had the scaffolding up for around 5 weeks with no extra charges. [1] Mid-terrace houses and 3 stage scaffolding to front of house up to roof ridge above bay windows. My house, when dismantling it was less than one hour from the truck tuning up, 3 men to dismantle and load the truck to the truck leaving. My neighbours scaffolding company nearer 4 hours to do the same job with 3 men. -- mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk |
Adam's apprentices
On 04/12/2019 15:43, GB wrote:
Adam's apprentices have apparently banded together and formed a scaffolding firm here in London. Next door are having some work done, and they wanted to brace their scaffolding against my house. Absolutely fine, I said. They put one brace against the brickwork, and the other against a window! Anyway, the neighbour is getting them round tomorrow to move it. But, surely, the scaffolders knew perfectly well when they did it that it was completely wrong. I guess they get away with it a lot of the time, so they don't care. But, if I were a builder and noticed it, I certainly would not feel safe up there, and I wouldn't use that firm again. Should put a photo up of that. This time last year a third year apprentice was wiring new-builds on his own. I worked through through the first one with him and made sure he was happy with what he had to do. He completed all houses with no cock ups. This year we have 2 third year apprentices. Neither of them can fit a back box straight, wire up a two way lightswitch etc etc. Due to the minimum wage rules and the fact we run a business then they will probably soon be laid off. -- Adam |
Adam's apprentices
On Wednesday, 4 December 2019 18:03:51 UTC, ARW wrote:
This year we have 2 third year apprentices. Neither of them can fit a back box straight, wire up a two way lightswitch etc etc. Could I suggest that being able to wire up a two way lightswitch should be an *entry criterion* to being an electrical apprentice? Fairly sure I could have done it at 16. In fact I was probably doing it about 8, with a battery and paperclips and brass paper fasteners for switches :-) If someone hasn't got to that stage by 16, where is the evidence of their interest and ability? Owain Admittedly my back boxes aren't always straight, but I blame the bricks... |
Adam's apprentices
wrote in message ... On Wednesday, 4 December 2019 18:03:51 UTC, ARW wrote: This year we have 2 third year apprentices. Neither of them can fit a back box straight, wire up a two way lightswitch etc etc. Could I suggest that being able to wire up a two way lightswitch should be an *entry criterion* to being an electrical apprentice? Problem is that they have to take what they can get or end up with no apprentices at all. Better to have some that can do some jobs than no apprentices at all. Fairly sure I could have done it at 16. I know I could, because I did rather younger than that. In fact I was probably doing it about 8, with a battery and paperclips and brass paper fasteners for switches :-) Yeah, me too. I did all the electrical work that needed to be done for the parents and they did do full scale renos of the houses they owned at that sort of my age. If someone hasn't got to that stage by 16, where is the evidence of their interest and ability? Sure, but see above. |
Adam's apprentices
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Lonely Auto-contradicting Psychotic Senile Ozzie Troll Alert!
On Thu, 5 Dec 2019 08:57:01 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again: Problem is that Problem is that you are a trolling piece of senile ****! FLUSH the rest of your troll**** unread -- Website (from 2007) dedicated to the 85-year-old trolling senile cretin from Oz: https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/r...d-faq.2973853/ |
Adam's apprentices
Not a new phenomenon though, back when we first got broadband the first
chap, very young came to fit the junction box on the wall, when later on after the whole thing had been in for a year or so, the box fell off the wall, the guy had used a screw straight into the brickwork and a nail in the other screw. Brian -- ----- -- This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from... The Sofa of Brian Gaff... Blind user, so no pictures please Note this Signature is meaningless.! "ARW" wrote in message ... On 04/12/2019 15:43, GB wrote: Adam's apprentices have apparently banded together and formed a scaffolding firm here in London. Next door are having some work done, and they wanted to brace their scaffolding against my house. Absolutely fine, I said. They put one brace against the brickwork, and the other against a window! Anyway, the neighbour is getting them round tomorrow to move it. But, surely, the scaffolders knew perfectly well when they did it that it was completely wrong. I guess they get away with it a lot of the time, so they don't care. But, if I were a builder and noticed it, I certainly would not feel safe up there, and I wouldn't use that firm again. Should put a photo up of that. This time last year a third year apprentice was wiring new-builds on his own. I worked through through the first one with him and made sure he was happy with what he had to do. He completed all houses with no cock ups. This year we have 2 third year apprentices. Neither of them can fit a back box straight, wire up a two way lightswitch etc etc. Due to the minimum wage rules and the fact we run a business then they will probably soon be laid off. -- Adam |
Adam's apprentices
On Wednesday, 4 December 2019 18:03:51 UTC, ARW wrote:
This year we have 2 third year apprentices. Neither of them can fit a back box straight, wire up a two way lightswitch etc etc. Due to the minimum wage rules and the fact we run a business then they will probably soon be laid off. I've just had a 2nd year electronic engineering student studying for a degree ask me what the connector on the end of the soldering iron is for, I said to connect to the power supply, what power supply ? was the next question. |
Adam's apprentices
On 04/12/2019 22:00, Steve Walker wrote:
On 04/12/2019 20:11, wrote: On Wednesday, 4 December 2019 18:03:51 UTC, ARWÂ* wrote: This year we have 2 third year apprentices. Neither of them can fit a back box straight, wire up a two way lightswitch etc etc. Could I suggest that being able to wire up a two way lightswitch should be an *entry criterion* to being an electrical apprentice? Fairly sure I could have done it at 16. In fact I was probably doing it about 8, with a battery and paperclips and brass paper fasteners for switches :-) I think I was about 12 or 13 when I installed the two mains spotlights, pair of dimmers and changed the switch near the door of my bedroom from a single gang to a 3-gang, with two way switching on both the spotlights. When they start with use they cannot use a screwdriver. Things were different 10 years ago, they get worse every year in most cases. Every so often you get a good one. -- Adam |
Adam's apprentices
"ARW" wrote in message ... On 04/12/2019 22:00, Steve Walker wrote: On 04/12/2019 20:11, wrote: On Wednesday, 4 December 2019 18:03:51 UTC, ARW wrote: This year we have 2 third year apprentices. Neither of them can fit a back box straight, wire up a two way lightswitch etc etc. Could I suggest that being able to wire up a two way lightswitch should be an *entry criterion* to being an electrical apprentice? Fairly sure I could have done it at 16. In fact I was probably doing it about 8, with a battery and paperclips and brass paper fasteners for switches :-) I think I was about 12 or 13 when I installed the two mains spotlights, pair of dimmers and changed the switch near the door of my bedroom from a single gang to a 3-gang, with two way switching on both the spotlights. When they start with use they cannot use a screwdriver. Fark. Things were different 10 years ago, they get worse every year in most cases. Wonder why in such a short time. Maybe the schools have stopped doing that stuff now, there. Presumably you should know that from the midget in residence at your place who likely is as big as you now. Every so often you get a good one. Yeah, the best of them dont need schools to teach stuff like that. |
UNBELIEVABLE: It's 05:42 am in Australia and the Senile Ozzietard has been out of Bed and TROLLING for almost FIVE HOURS already!!!! LOL
On Fri, 6 Dec 2019 05:42:32 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again: FLUSH the abnormal senile cretin's latest troll**** 05:42??? LMAO! Still not able to get back to bed, you clinically insane subnormal senile idiot? -- about senile Rot Speed: "This is like having a conversation with someone with brain damage." MID: |
Adam's apprentices
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Adam's apprentices
On 05/12/2019 22:16, Terry Casey wrote:
In article , says... When they start with use they cannot use a screwdriver. Things were different 10 years ago, they get worse every year in most cases. Every so often you get a good one. Why doesn't your boss give potential apprentices a simple test to find out if they have even the slightest knowledge of the subject they wish to be paid to learn about? For example: 1. What is the UK mains voltage? (Accept both 240 & 230, though the latter answer might indicate a better knowledge of the subject.) 2. What are the colours of the wires in a 3-core mains lead? L? N? E? 3. [Line drawing of the inside of a 13A plug.] On the drawing, using the letters C, E, F, L & N, show the Live, Neutral and Earth connections and the position of the Fuse and Cable clamp. I'm sure you can think up a few more simple general knowledge questions in similar vein which would, at least, indicate that they have a head on their shoulders and are not complete and utter thickos - which many of your apprentces seemm to be! I once asked one of them how old they were. Just myself and him in the same room so nothing too complicated. I think his answer was some sort of a question. Me "How old are you?" Apprentice "Who me?" It's easier just to not talk to some of them. -- Adam |
The Bulge - was Adam's apprentices
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Adam's apprentices
In article ,
says... On 05/12/2019 22:16, Terry Casey wrote: In article , says... When they start with use they cannot use a screwdriver. Things were different 10 years ago, they get worse every year in most cases. Every so often you get a good one. Why doesn't your boss give potential apprentices a simple test to find out if they have even the slightest knowledge of the subject they wish to be paid to learn about? For example: 1. What is the UK mains voltage? (Accept both 240 & 230, though the latter answer might indicate a better knowledge of the subject.) 2. What are the colours of the wires in a 3-core mains lead? L? N? E? 3. [Line drawing of the inside of a 13A plug.] On the drawing, using the letters C, E, F, L & N, show the Live, Neutral and Earth connections and the position of the Fuse and Cable clamp. I'm sure you can think up a few more simple general knowledge questions in similar vein which would, at least, indicate that they have a head on their shoulders and are not complete and utter thickos - which many of your apprentces seemm to be! I once asked one of them how old they were. Just myself and him in the same room so nothing too complicated. I think his answer was some sort of a question. Me "How old are you?" Apprentice "Who me?" It's easier just to not talk to some of them. The point I was trying to make is that they shouldn't even be there for you to (attempt to) talk to them in the first place! -- Terry |
Adam's apprentices
On 05/12/2019 22:16, Terry Casey wrote:
In article , says... When they start with use they cannot use a screwdriver. Things were different 10 years ago, they get worse every year in most cases. Every so often you get a good one. Why doesn't your boss give potential apprentices a simple test to find out if they have even the slightest knowledge of the subject they wish to be paid to learn about? For example: 1. What is the UK mains voltage? (Accept both 240 & 230, though the latter answer might indicate a better knowledge of the subject.) 2. What are the colours of the wires in a 3-core mains lead? L? N? E? 3. [Line drawing of the inside of a 13A plug.] On the drawing, using the letters C, E, F, L & N, show the Live, Neutral and Earth connections and the position of the Fuse and Cable clamp. ISTM such questions would test how much they /already/ know - which could vary enormously through chance (eg whether or not they had a parent who did stuff). What the employer wants to know* is whether or not they have what it takes to /become/ an electrician. I'd have thought that was better assessed by testing things all school leavers ought to know - e.g. basic arithmetic, algebra and comprehension. Oh, and a test based on a 13A plug would also tend to put recent immigrants at a disadvantage so arguably unlawful as indirect racial discrimination. *assuming they want to train apprentices rather than, say, just torment Adam :) -- Robin reply-to address is (intended to be) valid |
Adam's apprentices
"Terry Casey" wrote in message ... In article , says... When they start with use they cannot use a screwdriver. Things were different 10 years ago, they get worse every year in most cases. Every so often you get a good one. Why doesn't your boss give potential apprentices a simple test to find out if they have even the slightest knowledge of the subject they wish to be paid to learn about? Because if they don't even know how to use a screwdriver,they wont get any apprentices. For example: 1. What is the UK mains voltage? (Accept both 240 & 230, though the latter answer might indicate a better knowledge of the subject.) But says nothing useful about how well they will be able to learn how to install a back box lined up properly or do two way light switch wiring. 2. What are the colours of the wires in a 3-core mains lead? Ditto. L? N? E? 3. [Line drawing of the inside of a 13A plug.] Ditto and they vary too much.. On the drawing, using the letters C, E, F, L & N, show the Live, Neutral and Earth connections and the position of the Fuse and Cable clamp. I'm sure you can think up a few more simple general knowledge questions in similar vein which would, at least, indicate that they have a head on their shoulders and are not complete and utter thickos - which many of your apprentces seemm to be! But would likely produce **** all apprentices. |
The Bulge - was Adam's apprentices
"Terry Casey" wrote in message ... In article , says... I was born in 1944. I passed the 11 Plus and went to a Church school, which covered a large area. It was also a Secondary Modern for the local area. The Grammar side had 3 forms, A, B, & C whilst the Secondary Modern side had two forms, D & E. After WWII, 'The Bulge' started. By the time I left school, the fisrt year extended to 1H! Of course, not long after I left school and started work, the bulge started to emerge onto the employment market. Our Group Scoutmaster used to chat to us older boys after weekly meetings and gave the lads who were on the verge of leaving school a warning. He worked for Van den Bergh & Jurgens (part of Unilever) who manufactured Stork Margerine in the main. Their apprenticeships were well respected and sought after and they were now being inundated with applications, so they had found a devious way of reducing the numbers. They held an examination for all applicant, each of whom was provided with: A sheet of blotting paper; A rough sheet; An answer paper and A question paper. At the top of the question paper it said "ALL WORKING MUST BE SHOWN ON THE ANSWER PAPER". At the end of the exam, every sheet of paper was collected from each desk. If anything had been scribbled on any piece of paper other than the answer paper, it was an instant fail. The answer paper might have been 100% correct but it wan't even marked. Reason for failure? 'Cannot obey a simple instruction.' Only works when there are a lot more applicants than you need. Bet that isnt true with adam's operation anymore. |
Adam's apprentices
"Robin" wrote in message ... On 05/12/2019 22:16, Terry Casey wrote: In article , says... When they start with use they cannot use a screwdriver. Things were different 10 years ago, they get worse every year in most cases. Every so often you get a good one. Why doesn't your boss give potential apprentices a simple test to find out if they have even the slightest knowledge of the subject they wish to be paid to learn about? For example: 1. What is the UK mains voltage? (Accept both 240 & 230, though the latter answer might indicate a better knowledge of the subject.) 2. What are the colours of the wires in a 3-core mains lead? L? N? E? 3. [Line drawing of the inside of a 13A plug.] On the drawing, using the letters C, E, F, L & N, show the Live, Neutral and Earth connections and the position of the Fuse and Cable clamp. ISTM such questions would test how much they /already/ know - which could vary enormously through chance (eg whether or not they had a parent who did stuff). What the employer wants to know* is whether or not they have what it takes to /become/ an electrician. I'd have thought that was better assessed by testing things all school leavers ought to know - e.g. basic arithmetic, algebra and comprehension. Cant see that algebra is much use to an electrician. And what you need is kids that can do simple mechanical stuff like get the back box horizontal etc and who realise why that matters. Oh, and a test based on a 13A plug would also tend to put recent immigrants at a disadvantage so arguably unlawful as indirect racial discrimination. *assuming they want to train apprentices rather than, say, just torment Adam :) |
The Bulge - was Adam's apprentices
Terry Casey wrote:
In article , says... I was born in 1944. I passed the 11 Plus and went to a Church school, which covered a large area. It was also a Secondary Modern for the local area. The Grammar side had 3 forms, A, B, & C whilst the Secondary Modern side had two forms, D & E. After WWII, 'The Bulge' started. By the time I left school, the fisrt year extended to 1H! Of course, not long after I left school and started work, the bulge started to emerge onto the employment market. Our Group Scoutmaster used to chat to us older boys after weekly meetings and gave the lads who were on the verge of leaving school a warning. He worked for Van den Bergh & Jurgens (part of Unilever) who manufactured Stork Margerine in the main. Their apprenticeships were well respected and sought after and they were now being inundated with applications, so they had found a devious way of reducing the numbers. They held an examination for all applicant, each of whom was provided with: A sheet of blotting paper; A rough sheet; An answer paper and A question paper. At the top of the question paper it said "ALL WORKING MUST BE SHOWN ON THE ANSWER PAPER". At the end of the exam, every sheet of paper was collected from each desk. If anything had been scribbled on any piece of paper other than the answer paper, it was an instant fail. The answer paper might have been 100% correct but it wan't even marked. Reason for failure? 'Cannot obey a simple instruction.' That would make sense if they had said all working should be *confned* to the answer paper. The instructions as you quote them do *not* forbid doing rough working on the blotter and transcribing it in neater writing to the answer paper. -- Roger Hayter |
The Bulge - was Adam's apprentices
On 06/12/2019 01:01, Roger Hayter wrote:
Terry Casey wrote: In article , says... I was born in 1944. I passed the 11 Plus and went to a Church school, which covered a large area. It was also a Secondary Modern for the local area. The Grammar side had 3 forms, A, B, & C whilst the Secondary Modern side had two forms, D & E. After WWII, 'The Bulge' started. By the time I left school, the fisrt year extended to 1H! Of course, not long after I left school and started work, the bulge started to emerge onto the employment market. Our Group Scoutmaster used to chat to us older boys after weekly meetings and gave the lads who were on the verge of leaving school a warning. He worked for Van den Bergh & Jurgens (part of Unilever) who manufactured Stork Margerine in the main. Their apprenticeships were well respected and sought after and they were now being inundated with applications, so they had found a devious way of reducing the numbers. They held an examination for all applicant, each of whom was provided with: A sheet of blotting paper; A rough sheet; An answer paper and A question paper. At the top of the question paper it said "ALL WORKING MUST BE SHOWN ON THE ANSWER PAPER". At the end of the exam, every sheet of paper was collected from each desk. If anything had been scribbled on any piece of paper other than the answer paper, it was an instant fail. The answer paper might have been 100% correct but it wan't even marked. Reason for failure? 'Cannot obey a simple instruction.' That would make sense if they had said all working should be *confned* to the answer paper. The instructions as you quote them do *not* forbid doing rough working on the blotter and transcribing it in neater writing to the answer paper. Your problem is that you want someone who actually can think. It would seem that in Terry's case they wanted mindless robots. |
Adam's apprentices
On 05/12/2019 18:24, ARW wrote:
When they start with use they cannot use a screwdriver. Things were different 10 years ago, they get worse every year in most cases. Every so often you get a good one. The company that I used to work for seemed able to weed out most of the dross before offering an apprenticeship and then gave short classroom type practical training on the basics before unleashing them into the general workforce. -- mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk |
Adam's apprentices
On 05/12/2019 22:56, Robin wrote:
ISTM such questions would test how much they /already/ know - which could vary enormously through chance (eg whether or not they had a parent who did stuff).Â* What the employer wants to know* is whether or not they have what it takes to /become/ an electrician.Â* I'd have thought that was better assessed by testing things all school leavers ought to know - e.g. basic arithmetic, algebra and comprehension. A decent interview should sort that out. Its not only what they know but their attitude to actually working. I'm sure that most reading this group have HAD to fit a mains plug but these day they all come moulded onto the cable. We all probably have experience of a consumer unit where a duff fuse has had to be replaced with some new fuse wire, silver paper from a fag packet, paper clip, nail etc. but these days flicking a switch is all that is required reset the circuit. -- mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk |
Adam's apprentices
On 05/12/2019 14:05, whisky-dave wrote:
On Wednesday, 4 December 2019 18:03:51 UTC, ARW wrote: This year we have 2 third year apprentices. Neither of them can fit a back box straight, wire up a two way lightswitch etc etc. Due to the minimum wage rules and the fact we run a business then they will probably soon be laid off. I've just had a 2nd year electronic engineering student studying for a degree ask me what the connector on the end of the soldering iron is for, I said to connect to the power supply, what power supply ? was the next question. A fair question if he has only been given the working end of a temperature controlled soldering iron and no control box. Or was the connector on the end of the lead a mains plug? -- mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk |
The Bulge - was Adam's apprentices
"Terry Casey" wrote in message ... In article , says... I was born in 1944. I passed the 11 Plus and went to a Church school, which covered a large area. It was also a Secondary Modern for the local area. The Grammar side had 3 forms, A, B, & C whilst the Secondary Modern side had two forms, D & E. After WWII, 'The Bulge' started. By the time I left school, the fisrt year extended to 1H! Of course, not long after I left school and started work, the bulge started to emerge onto the employment market. Our Group Scoutmaster used to chat to us older boys after weekly meetings and gave the lads who were on the verge of leaving school a warning. He worked for Van den Bergh & Jurgens (part of Unilever) who manufactured Stork Margerine in the main. Their apprenticeships were well respected and sought after and they were now being inundated with applications, so they had found a devious way of reducing the numbers. They held an examination for all applicant, each of whom was provided with: A sheet of blotting paper; A rough sheet; An answer paper and A question paper. At the top of the question paper it said "ALL WORKING MUST BE SHOWN ON THE ANSWER PAPER". At the end of the exam, every sheet of paper was collected from each desk. If anything had been scribbled on any piece of paper other than the answer paper, it was an instant fail. The answer paper might have been 100% correct but it wan't even marked. Reason for failure? 'Cannot obey a simple instruction.' Which is clearly nonsense. If at the top of the question paper it had said "ALL WORKING MUST BE SHOWN AND *ONLY* ON THE ANSWER PAPER" Then fair enough. But it didn't, did it ? But as it stands had any of the candidates first done their workings on the rough sheet, and then copied all them exactly but more neatly on the answer paper, then they'd have satisfied the instruction. In fact they might even have been more satisfactory candidates. As being able to do rough workings (as was implied by the provision of the rough sheet) in line with their thought processes, rather than being slowed down by the need to be neat, and copying out the workings afterwards would probably be a far better way of proceeding. You won't necesarily choose smart people by setting trick questions. And it is a trick given the provision of a blank sheet of paper. All you're doing is bolstering the ego of the smartarse who came up with the flawed idea, michael adams .... |
-- Lonely Auto-contradicting Psychotic Senile Ozzie Troll Alert!
On Fri, 6 Dec 2019 10:45:10 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again: Cant see that algebra is much use to an electrician. Yeah, you are that demented, senile Rodent! -- Website (from 2007) dedicated to the 85-year-old trolling senile cretin from Oz: https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/r...d-faq.2973853/ |
Lonely Auto-contradicting Psychotic Senile Ozzie Troll Alert!
On Fri, 6 Dec 2019 10:36:48 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again: But would likely produce **** all apprentices. Now ALSO an expert in ARW's apprentices, you clinically insane senile troll from Oz? Of COURS!!! LOL -- about senile Rot Speed: "This is like having a conversation with someone with brain damage." MID: |
Lonely Auto-contradicting Psychotic Senile Ozzie Troll Alert!
On Fri, 6 Dec 2019 10:42:00 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again: Reason for failure? 'Cannot obey a simple instruction.' Only works when there are a lot more applicants than you need. Bet that isnt true with adam's operation anymore. The auto-contradicting senile asshole from Oz struck, again! LOL -- Kerr-Mudd,John addressing senile Rot: "Auto-contradictor Rod is back! (in the KF)" MID: |
Adam's apprentices
wrote:
On Wednesday, 4 December 2019 18:03:51 UTC, ARW wrote: This year we have 2 third year apprentices. Neither of them can fit a back box straight, wire up a two way lightswitch etc etc. Could I suggest that being able to wire up a two way lightswitch should be an *entry criterion* to being an electrical apprentice? Fairly sure I could have done it at 16. In fact I was probably doing it about 8, with a battery and paperclips and brass paper fasteners for switches :-) If someone hasn't got to that stage by 16, where is the evidence of their interest and ability? Owain Admittedly my back boxes aren't always straight, but I blame the bricks... That kind of €˜tinkering by children is pretty well a thing of the past. Toys like Mecanno, the various electronic assembly toys, books which encouraged youngsters to experiment with basic science etc, are no longer popular. Like you, I was tinkering with basic electrical things at 8 or so, I went on to gain an engineering degree, and worked in industry. Now too many youngsters want to be €˜celebrities. Without wishing to be racist etc, back in the 80s I was working in a developing country on some military equipment along side some Americans. Some local Army person were assigned to help us. One of the Americans made some disparaging comments about the technical skills of his local assistants while we were having dinner one evening. As one of his colleagues pointed out, the soldiers had probably never had even a bicycle as a child let alone worked on anything as complicated as the kit they now were faced with. By not ensuring our children explore basic technology etc we are placing them in the same position. Playing computer games / having the latest mobile phone isnt basic technology. |
The Bulge - was Adam's apprentices
In message , michael
adams writes Snip In fact they might even have been more satisfactory candidates. As being able to do rough workings (as was implied by the provision of the rough sheet) in line with their thought processes, rather than being slowed down by the need to be neat, and copying out the workings afterwards would probably be a far better way of proceeding. You won't necesarily choose smart people by setting trick questions. And it is a trick given the provision of a blank sheet of paper. All you're doing is bolstering the ego of the smartarse who came up with the flawed idea, I attended a selection session for an apprentice position at George Kents (water meters now long gone). The applicants were handed several sheets of paper and asked to sketch what mechanisms were hidden behind plywood sheets held up by an assistant. Visible from the front were side projections which moved up/down/sideways/rotated etc. due to whatever part the assistant moved. Sadly I was very poor at doing this and the interviewer suggested I might do better as an electrical engineer! michael adams ... -- Tim Lamb |
Adam's apprentices
On Friday, 6 December 2019 09:40:39 UTC, Brian Reay wrote:
That kind of €˜tinkering by children is pretty well a thing of the past. .... Without wishing to be racist etc, back in the 80s I was working in a developing country on some military equipment along side some Americans. OTOH in developing countries tinkering is much more prevalent and if the soldiers *had* had a bicycle as children [1] they would probably have known how to change the tyre, patch the inner tube, fix the chain etc and even weld the frame with a couple of wires from the light socket and a home-made transformer. Owain [1] Yes, I do mean one bike, many children :-) |
The Bulge - was Adam's apprentices
On 06/12/2019 01:01, Roger Hayter wrote:
That would make sense if they had said all working should be *confned* to the answer paper. The instructions as you quote them do *not* forbid doing rough working on the blotter and transcribing it in neater writing to the answer paper. Indeed. I thought that- the instruction is ambiguous, and I'd interpret them as Roger states. |
Adam's apprentices
On Thursday, 5 December 2019 23:45:24 UTC, Rod Speed wrote:
Cant see that algebra is much use to an electrician. Of course not, electricians /never/ calculate anything using an equation do they. Owain |
The Bulge - was Adam's apprentices
In article ,
"michael adams" mjadams25@ukonline wrote: Reason for failure? 'Cannot obey a simple instruction.' Which is clearly nonsense. If at the top of the question paper it had said "ALL WORKING MUST BE SHOWN AND *ONLY* ON THE ANSWER PAPER" Then fair enough. But it didn't, did it ? But as it stands had any of the candidates first done their workings on the rough sheet, and then copied all them exactly but more neatly on the answer paper, then they'd have satisfied the instruction. In fact they might even have been more satisfactory candidates. As being able to do rough workings (as was implied by the provision of the rough sheet) in line with their thought processes, rather than being slowed down by the need to be neat, and copying out the workings afterwards would probably be a far better way of proceeding. You won't necesarily choose smart people by setting trick questions. And it is a trick given the provision of a blank sheet of paper. All you're doing is bolstering the ego of the smartarse who came up with the flawed idea, What a very good response, Michael! IME, people who ever said to me, in my long life, [you] 'cannot obey a simple instruction' were the type of mild bullyboys who made it to Corporal, and never got further. John |
The Bulge - was Adam's apprentices
On Fri, 6 Dec 2019 01:01:32 +0000, Roger Hayter wrote:
They held an examination for all applicant, each of whom was provided with: A sheet of blotting paper; A rough sheet; An answer paper and A question paper. At the top of the question paper it said "ALL WORKING MUST BE SHOWN ON THE ANSWER PAPER". At the end of the exam, every sheet of paper was collected from each desk. If anything had been scribbled on any piece of paper other than the answer paper, it was an instant fail. The answer paper might have been 100% correct but it wan't even marked. Reason for failure? 'Cannot obey a simple instruction.' That would make sense if they had said all working should be *confned* to the answer paper. The instructions as you quote them do *not* forbid doing rough working on the blotter and transcribing it in neater writing to the answer paper. Or even on the rough paper. B-) Or workings trying out various methods to solve the problem before transcribing all the workings of the choosen method to the answer paper. -- Cheers Dave. |
Adam's apprentices
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Adam's apprentices
On Fri, 6 Dec 2019 09:40:36 +0000 (UTC), Brian Reay wrote:
That kind of tinkering by children is pretty well a thing of the past. Toys like Mecanno, the various electronic assembly toys, books which encouraged youngsters to experiment with basic science etc, are no longer popular. But still easyly available, so someone must be buying them. The world is a very different place these days. Kids have other ways of "building" things that have far faster, idea, build, try, fail, new idea loops. And for things that are all but impossible to do in the real world. Anything from spacecraft or land based vehicles to electronic circuits into discreet component logic blocks into computers... What they don't teach are the physical skills, like how to use a screwdriver, hammer, spanner, etc. How various materials behave under various stress's (heat, cold, tension, compression, bending, twisting...). -- Cheers Dave. |
Adam's apprentices
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 06/12/2019 10:04, wrote: On Thursday, 5 December 2019 23:45:24 UTC, Rod Speed wrote: Cant see that algebra is much use to an electrician. Of course not, electricians /never/ calculate anything using an equation do they. Owain Electricians don't, no. Electrical engineers, however, do. But they do have to check wire temperatures under load and fautl conditions, voltage drop and fault currents and things like that in principle. Also do calculations for commissioning checks. The fact you could rewire an average house with average materials and never exceed any limits doesn't mean a professional electrician shouldn't bother. And not all wiring is an average house. -- Roger Hayter |
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