In article ,
Bill Taylor wrote:
On Sat, 17 Feb 2018 12:53:36 +0000, "dennis@home"
wrote:

On 17/02/2018 11:49, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Another jealous of my job, eh? Love to know what you consider a skilled
job.

I don't consider anything that requires a few weeks training as skilled.
At best its semi-skilled.


The BBC training courses for operators and engineers took about 2
years. Starting off with a 13 week basic course at Wood Norton, about
a year of on station training another course of about 6 weeks, another
year on station and then a final course of a few weeks. You had to
pass tests on each course and were continually assessed during the on
station sections. If you weren't good enough you would be
"terminated", and people were occasionally, although the selection
before you started training was quite good in weeding out unskilled
people.

That isn't totally correct. That's how school leavers were trained. In
1962, faced with a need for extra engineering staff to cope with the
expansion needed for BBC2, the BBC recuited graduates and gave us a 6 week
Direct Entry course. I don't think any of us did badly. One of those on my
course went on to be Chief Engineer of Dolby Europe.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

In article ,
dennis@home wrote:
And this line manager is going to set the salary of each and every
person on a regular basis? Secretly, I assume? Or are you going to
make these figures available to the workforce?

Is you wage a secret or do you tell everyone what it is?

When I worked for a large company it was absolutely not a secret. Based on
a grade and pay scale, same as everyone else.

You only have to look at the trouble the BBC is in by trying to keep pay a
secret. Although that only really applied to very small numbers of those
it employed in one way or another.

--
*Do they ever shut up on your planet?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
dennis@home wrote:
There is a big difference between skilled staff and semi skilled
staff like cleaner, sound technicians, train drivers, car assembly
workers, etc. Once you have worked as a skilled worker come back and
let us know.

Another jealous of my job, eh? Love to know what you consider a skilled
job.

I don't consider anything that requires a few weeks training as skilled.
At best its semi-skilled.

Then that just shows how little you know by the list you gave above.

Probably trying to be clever - and failing again.

--
*(over a sketch of the titanic) "The boat sank - get over it

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Bill Taylor wrote:
On Sat, 17 Feb 2018 12:53:36 +0000, "dennis@home"
wrote:

On 17/02/2018 11:49, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Another jealous of my job, eh? Love to know what you consider a skilled
job.

I don't consider anything that requires a few weeks training as skilled.
At best its semi-skilled.


The BBC training courses for operators and engineers took about 2
years. Starting off with a 13 week basic course at Wood Norton, about
a year of on station training another course of about 6 weeks, another
year on station and then a final course of a few weeks. You had to
pass tests on each course and were continually assessed during the on
station sections. If you weren't good enough you would be
"terminated", and people were occasionally, although the selection
before you started training was quite good in weeding out unskilled
people.

If you think that good operators are unskilled, then you are
completely wrong. (Of course you're presumably saying this as a wind
up.)

Quite likely Fred was.

But then there are also some very skilled cleaners too in specialised
fields. Same with car assembly workers.

And the skill with driving a tube train is how not to get so bored with it
you leave after a week.

--
*A fool and his money are soon partying *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 17/02/2018 13:32, Bill Taylor wrote:
On Sat, 17 Feb 2018 12:53:36 +0000, "dennis@home"
wrote:

On 17/02/2018 11:49, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Another jealous of my job, eh? Love to know what you consider a skilled
job.

I don't consider anything that requires a few weeks training as skilled.
At best its semi-skilled.


The BBC training courses for operators and engineers took about 2
years. Starting off with a 13 week basic course at Wood Norton, about
a year of on station training another course of about 6 weeks, another
year on station and then a final course of a few weeks. You had to
pass tests on each course and were continually assessed during the on
station sections. If you weren't good enough you would be
"terminated", and people were occasionally, although the selection
before you started training was quite good in weeding out unskilled
people.

You have to be kidding.
I can understand engineers needing a lot of training, but operators.


If you think that good operators are unskilled, then you are
completely wrong. (Of course you're presumably saying this as a wind
up.)


Semi-skilled.

On 17/02/2018 15:55, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Bill Taylor wrote:
On Sat, 17 Feb 2018 12:53:36 +0000, "dennis@home"
wrote:

On 17/02/2018 11:49, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Another jealous of my job, eh? Love to know what you consider a skilled
job.

I don't consider anything that requires a few weeks training as skilled.
At best its semi-skilled.


The BBC training courses for operators and engineers took about 2
years. Starting off with a 13 week basic course at Wood Norton, about
a year of on station training another course of about 6 weeks, another
year on station and then a final course of a few weeks. You had to
pass tests on each course and were continually assessed during the on
station sections. If you weren't good enough you would be
"terminated", and people were occasionally, although the selection
before you started training was quite good in weeding out unskilled
people.

If you think that good operators are unskilled, then you are
completely wrong. (Of course you're presumably saying this as a wind
up.)

Quite likely Fred was.

But then there are also some very skilled cleaners too in specialised
fields. Same with car assembly workers.

And the skill with driving a tube train is how not to get so bored with it
you leave after a week.


Computers don't get bored so get rid of the drivers.
It will be safer.

In article ,
pamela wrote:
If they really want that job, start off with another in TFL. No
problem there. Then apply for a driver's job. Pretty well all
decent jobs (if you really think this is one) have some sort of
path to them. You don't simply get one direct from outside with no
qualifications or experience.

That's a public-sector closed-shop attitude which results in time
servers getting jobs whose remuneration are vastly out of line with
what the private sector is offering.

What - offering jobs internally first? You think that only happens in the
public sector?

Lots to be said for it. Someone from outside who may not have the exact
paper qualifications for a job likely wouldn't even get an interview. An
internal applicant, known to management who had shown a great interest in
that job might get the benefit of the doubt, and turn out to be superb at
it. Unlike your member of the public who applies just because the pay is
good.


Maybe that's how we got into
this mess in the first place.

I can see your method causing a great deal of resentment in a big company.
'Fred gets more money than me because he is in the same lodge as the
supervisor.'

Interesting you talk about the mess we're in. Given the draconian Thatcher
legislation on unions near 30 years ago. You're going to have to look for
something else to blame now.

--
*Happiness is seeing your mother-in-law on a milk carton

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 17/02/2018 15:47, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
dennis@home wrote:
And this line manager is going to set the salary of each and every
person on a regular basis? Secretly, I assume? Or are you going to
make these figures available to the workforce?

Is you wage a secret or do you tell everyone what it is?

When I worked for a large company it was absolutely not a secret. Based on
a grade and pay scale, same as everyone else.

So they had a big problem, you got paid the same for doing the same job
however well you did it.
Might as well do it badly.

Of course in the sort of job I did nobody else did the same, you were
judged on you ability to design solutions to problems and design new
services and/or products.

Then you would have to be able to get the hardware and software
engineers to be able to use that solution.

If you could design new solutions/systems/products you got on, otherwise
you may as well be a programmer or a test engineer.



You only have to look at the trouble the BBC is in by trying to keep pay a
secret. Although that only really applied to very small numbers of those
it employed in one way or another.


Public services shouldn't be allowed much secrecy or they will do stupid
things like paying presenters a fortune so they don't go and work for ITV.

On 17/02/2018 15:50, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
dennis@home wrote:
There is a big difference between skilled staff and semi skilled
staff like cleaner, sound technicians, train drivers, car assembly
workers, etc. Once you have worked as a skilled worker come back and
let us know.

Another jealous of my job, eh? Love to know what you consider a skilled
job.

I don't consider anything that requires a few weeks training as skilled.
At best its semi-skilled.

Then that just shows how little you know by the list you gave above.

So which of the above takes more than a week of training?


Probably trying to be clever - and failing again.

In article ,
dennis@home wrote:
The BBC training courses for operators and engineers took about 2
years. Starting off with a 13 week basic course at Wood Norton, about
a year of on station training another course of about 6 weeks, another
year on station and then a final course of a few weeks. You had to
pass tests on each course and were continually assessed during the on
station sections. If you weren't good enough you would be
"terminated", and people were occasionally, although the selection
before you started training was quite good in weeding out unskilled
people.

You have to be kidding.
I can understand engineers needing a lot of training, but operators.

Rather typical of one who pronounces on how much anyone should be paid.
They haven't a clue what the job involves.

--
*Support bacteria - they're the only culture some people have *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
dennis@home wrote:
When I worked for a large company it was absolutely not a secret. Based on
a grade and pay scale, same as everyone else.

So they had a big problem, you got paid the same for doing the same job
however well you did it.
Might as well do it badly.

Yup - I can see someone with your attitude doing just that. Which is why
you choose your workforce carefully. Not just any old **** who wants the
money.

--
*60-year-old, one owner - needs parts, make offer

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Sat, 17 Feb 2018 12:58:50 -0000, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
The best way would probably be to deliberately make the vehicle
inoperative, stick on the hazard lights, then you can claim you broke
down. Pull out an HT lead, then you can try to start it without success.

You have a car with an HT lead? How very quaint.

How else do you think the spark plug operates? (Diesels excepted)

You've not looked at an engine made in the last 20 years or so?

--
*Everyone has a photographic memory. Some just don't have film*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 17/02/2018 18:21, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
dennis@home wrote:
The BBC training courses for operators and engineers took about 2
years. Starting off with a 13 week basic course at Wood Norton, about
a year of on station training another course of about 6 weeks, another
year on station and then a final course of a few weeks. You had to
pass tests on each course and were continually assessed during the on
station sections. If you weren't good enough you would be
"terminated", and people were occasionally, although the selection
before you started training was quite good in weeding out unskilled
people.

You have to be kidding.
I can understand engineers needing a lot of training, but operators.

Rather typical of one who pronounces on how much anyone should be paid.
They haven't a clue what the job involves.


Just exactly where have I said what anyone should be paid?
On the other hand you want them to be paid union rates.

On 17/02/18 18:25, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Sat, 17 Feb 2018 12:58:50 -0000, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
The best way would probably be to deliberately make the vehicle
inoperative, stick on the hazard lights, then you can claim you broke
down. Pull out an HT lead, then you can try to start it without success.

You have a car with an HT lead? How very quaint.

How else do you think the spark plug operates? (Diesels excepted)

You've not looked at an engine made in the last 20 years or so?

yep. coil pack, HT leads...


--
Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's
too dark to read.

Groucho Marx

On 17/02/2018 16:46, pamela wrote:
On 15:07 17 Feb 2018, Tim Streater wrote:

In article , RJH
wrote:

On 16/02/2018 09:38, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , RJH
wrote:

A few words: Private Finance Initiative;

Well we know who to blame for those.

cartels; land banking; tax evasion and avoidance;

What's wrong with tax avoidance? Anyone who files a tax return
and claims their personal allowance is avoiding tax.


I think examples of corporate tax avoidance are, in context,
offensive - Apple, Amazon, Google etc. Bit different to claiming a
personal allowance. I take it you don't see the difference?

Both are perfectly legal. And in fact companies are obliged by law
to take steps to maximise shareholder return.

But it's no good bleating about it - change the law instead.

Luckily for us we have the EU which has been taking strict measures
in how it interprets the law.

The UK authorities have been inexplicably generous towards these
large corportions by offering sweetheart deals.

Given that some of the companies mentioned here reside in Republic of
Ireland, I shouldn't be surprised you ignore the lax rules the EU
imposes on companies.

One thing about the UK is that much tax is indirect, such as business rates.

This leaves other European countries mystified because they exact
far greater penalties.

No more mystified than Brexiters allowing the ROI to have very low rates
of corporation tax, distorting markets.

On 17/02/2018 15:47, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
dennis@home wrote:
And this line manager is going to set the salary of each and every
person on a regular basis? Secretly, I assume? Or are you going to
make these figures available to the workforce?

Is you wage a secret or do you tell everyone what it is?

When I worked for a large company it was absolutely not a secret. Based on
a grade and pay scale, same as everyone else.

You only have to look at the trouble the BBC is in by trying to keep pay a
secret. Although that only really applied to very small numbers of those
it employed in one way or another.

The BBC is unusual in having to publish salaries. Most companies have
contractual clauses that prevent any discussion of salaries with other
employees in fear of dismissal.

The BBC will simply contract out 'expensive' employees into running
their own production company. It will also contract out any areas of
employment that employ low paid female staff such as cleaning (if it
doesn't already).

The most recent study of the BBC, male/female wage ratios came out well
for the coporation.

In message , at 15:07:09 on
Sat, 17 Feb 2018, Tim Streater remarked:

companies are obliged by law to take steps to maximise shareholder
return.

They aren't, so that whole line of argument fails.
--
Roland Perry

On Sat, 17 Feb 2018 13:58:37 +0000 (GMT), charles
wrote:

In article ,
Bill Taylor wrote:
On Sat, 17 Feb 2018 12:53:36 +0000, "dennis@home"
wrote:

On 17/02/2018 11:49, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Another jealous of my job, eh? Love to know what you consider a skilled
job.

I don't consider anything that requires a few weeks training as skilled.
At best its semi-skilled.


The BBC training courses for operators and engineers took about 2
years. Starting off with a 13 week basic course at Wood Norton, about
a year of on station training another course of about 6 weeks, another
year on station and then a final course of a few weeks. You had to
pass tests on each course and were continually assessed during the on
station sections. If you weren't good enough you would be
"terminated", and people were occasionally, although the selection
before you started training was quite good in weeding out unskilled
people.

That isn't totally correct. That's how school leavers were trained. In
1962, faced with a need for extra engineering staff to cope with the
expansion needed for BBC2, the BBC recuited graduates and gave us a 6 week
Direct Entry course. I don't think any of us did badly. One of those on my
course went on to be Chief Engineer of Dolby Europe.

Yes, some of my ex colleagues were DEs, but they'd already done a
degree course, and still had to do some BBC training, although less
than a TA/TO.

On Sat, 17 Feb 2018 17:16:35 +0000, "dennis@home"
wrote:

On 17/02/2018 13:32, Bill Taylor wrote:
On Sat, 17 Feb 2018 12:53:36 +0000, "dennis@home"
wrote:

On 17/02/2018 11:49, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Another jealous of my job, eh? Love to know what you consider a skilled
job.

I don't consider anything that requires a few weeks training as skilled.
At best its semi-skilled.


The BBC training courses for operators and engineers took about 2
years. Starting off with a 13 week basic course at Wood Norton, about
a year of on station training another course of about 6 weeks, another
year on station and then a final course of a few weeks. You had to
pass tests on each course and were continually assessed during the on
station sections. If you weren't good enough you would be
"terminated", and people were occasionally, although the selection
before you started training was quite good in weeding out unskilled
people.

You have to be kidding.
I can understand engineers needing a lot of training, but operators.


No, I'm not kidding. Good operators are highly skilled people. There's
a lot more to operating in a broadcast environment than you seem to
think.

On 15/02/2018 21:37, Tim Ward wrote:
On 15/02/2018 21:21, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:

Anyway, no point in remembering rules, as nowadays councils are
introducing so many new traffic calming measures, nobody has a ****ing
clue who goes first etc.

Councils can only do what's within the law - council officers tend to
refuse instructions from councillors to put up illegal signs (I know,
I've tried). So the rules are the same everywhere, councils just can't
go round inventing new ones no matter how much they might like to.

It took several years to get the government to change the law to allow
us to put up "no entry except cyclists" signs - and now that they are
legal they could appear anywhere in the country.

So yes the rules are likely to have changed since you (or I) took the
test, but not by much, and not by anything major, and they'll have
changed uniformly across the country, not randomly by council.

I've got several junctions around here where they've removed the give
way lines.* People just guess who goes first or wave at each other.
We have several of those. We also have one just round the corner with
"give way" on all four approaches. No trouble with any of them. I think
the trick is for everybody approaching the junction to think to
themselves "I've got no actual real need to drive through this junction
like a complete and utter prick, so I think I'll simply refrain from
doing so".

We've got one of those. Typically everyone stops to let the other(s) go,
then decides that they've stopped to let them go, so they all set off at
once and then slam the brakes on. Happens all the time.

SteveW

On 17/02/2018 20:51, pamela wrote:
On 19:20 17 Feb 2018, Fredxx wrote:

On 17/02/2018 15:47, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
dennis@home wrote:
And this line manager is going to set the salary of each and
every person on a regular basis? Secretly, I assume? Or are you
going to make these figures available to the workforce?

Is you wage a secret or do you tell everyone what it is?

When I worked for a large company it was absolutely not a secret.
Based on a grade and pay scale, same as everyone else.

You only have to look at the trouble the BBC is in by trying to
keep pay a secret. Although that only really applied to very
small numbers of those it employed in one way or another.

The BBC is unusual in having to publish salaries. Most companies
have contractual clauses that prevent any discussion of salaries
with other employees in fear of dismissal.

They do? I've never worked in one of those companies.

When was the last time you worked for a private company?

On 17/02/2018 21:56, pamela wrote:
On 21:12 17 Feb 2018, Fredxx wrote:

On 17/02/2018 20:51, pamela wrote:
On 19:20 17 Feb 2018, Fredxx wrote:

On 17/02/2018 15:47, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
dennis@home wrote:
And this line manager is going to set the salary of each and
every person on a regular basis? Secretly, I assume? Or are you
going to make these figures available to the workforce?

Is you wage a secret or do you tell everyone what it is?

When I worked for a large company it was absolutely not a secret.
Based on a grade and pay scale, same as everyone else.

You only have to look at the trouble the BBC is in by trying to
keep pay a secret. Although that only really applied to very
small numbers of those it employed in one way or another.

The BBC is unusual in having to publish salaries. Most companies
have contractual clauses that prevent any discussion of salaries
with other employees in fear of dismissal.

They do? I've never worked in one of those companies.

When was the last time you worked for a private company?


I worked for a private comapny up until I became too ill to work. Do
you work for a private company?

Yes I do, and employees are sacked if they discuss remuneration.

Having said that, some can be discerned by the cars they drive!

Older companies, such as Plessey, also had this rule.

On 17/02/2018 19:04, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 17/02/18 18:25, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Â*Â*Â* James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Sat, 17 Feb 2018 12:58:50 -0000, Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:

In article ,
Â*Â*Â* James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
The best way would probably be to deliberately make the vehicle
inoperative, stick on the hazard lights, then you can claim you broke
down.Â* Pull out an HT lead, then you can try to start it without
success.

You have a car with an HT lead? How very quaint.

How else do you think the spark plug operates?Â* (Diesels excepted)

You've not looked at an engine made in the last 20 years or so?

yep. coil pack, HT leads...



Most recent engines have the coil pack mounted directly to the plug and
don't have any HT leads.

Steve Walker wrote:

On 15/02/2018 21:37, Tim Ward wrote:
On 15/02/2018 21:21, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:

Anyway, no point in remembering rules, as nowadays councils are
introducing so many new traffic calming measures, nobody has a ****ing
clue who goes first etc.

Councils can only do what's within the law - council officers tend to
refuse instructions from councillors to put up illegal signs (I know,
I've tried). So the rules are the same everywhere, councils just can't
go round inventing new ones no matter how much they might like to.

It took several years to get the government to change the law to allow
us to put up "no entry except cyclists" signs - and now that they are
legal they could appear anywhere in the country.

So yes the rules are likely to have changed since you (or I) took the
test, but not by much, and not by anything major, and they'll have
changed uniformly across the country, not randomly by council.

I've got several junctions around here where they've removed the give
way lines. People just guess who goes first or wave at each other.
We have several of those. We also have one just round the corner with
"give way" on all four approaches. No trouble with any of them. I think
the trick is for everybody approaching the junction to think to
themselves "I've got no actual real need to drive through this junction
like a complete and utter prick, so I think I'll simply refrain from
doing so".

We've got one of those. Typically everyone stops to let the other(s) go,
then decides that they've stopped to let them go, so they all set off at
once and then slam the brakes on. Happens all the time.

SteveW
Is there no new rule in the Highway Code to deal with this? At least in
the very limited bit of East Coast America I've driven in the rule is
that the second person to arrive gives way to the first to arrive.
Clearly the first to arrive generally stops or at least slows to walking
pace if the sight lines are very good.

Without a rule everyone understands there are going to be lots of
accidents as you describe.

--

Roger Hayter

On 17/02/18 22:32, dennis@home wrote:
On 17/02/2018 19:04, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 17/02/18 18:25, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Â*Â*Â* James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Sat, 17 Feb 2018 12:58:50 -0000, Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:

In article ,
Â*Â*Â* James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
The best way would probably be to deliberately make the vehicle
inoperative, stick on the hazard lights, then you can claim you broke
down.Â* Pull out an HT lead, then you can try to start it without
success.

You have a car with an HT lead? How very quaint.

How else do you think the spark plug operates?Â* (Diesels excepted)

You've not looked at an engine made in the last 20 years or so?

yep. coil pack, HT leads...



Most recent engines have the coil pack mounted directly to the plug and
don't have any HT leads.

But not ALL Denise.

Sometimes the plugs are buried in deep and there isnt room


--
€œA leader is best When people barely know he exists. Of a good leader,
who talks little,When his work is done, his aim fulfilled,They will say,
€œWe did this ourselves.€�

ۥ Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

On 18/02/2018 08:19, Tim Streater wrote:

The last thing we want to import from the US of A is the ****ty 4-way
stop.

What a weird set of priorities. I'd have thought the last thing we want
to import from the US of A would be one of (take your pick)

- gun violence
- Trump

--
Tim Ward - 07801 703 600
www.brettward.co.uk

In article , Tim Streater
wrote:
In article , Roger Hayter
wrote:

Steve Walker wrote:

We've got one of those. Typically everyone stops to let the other(s)
go, then decides that they've stopped to let them go, so they all set
off at once and then slam the brakes on. Happens all the time.

Is there no new rule in the Highway Code to deal with this? At least in
the very limited bit of East Coast America I've driven in the rule is
that the second person to arrive gives way to the first to arrive.
Clearly the first to arrive generally stops or at least slows to walking
pace if the sight lines are very good.

The last thing we want to import from the US of A is the ****ty 4-way
stop.

Theer's been such a junction in a nearby village (Great Bookham) for a
very long time. Perhaps an American saw it and took the idea home ;-)

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

On 17/02/2018 15:07, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , RJH wrote:

On 16/02/2018 09:38, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , RJH wrote:

A few words: Private Finance Initiative;

Well we know who to blame for those.

cartels; land banking; tax evasion and avoidance;

What's wrong with tax avoidance? Anyone who files a tax return and
claims their personal allowance is avoiding tax.


I think examples of corporate tax avoidance are, in context, offensive
- Apple, Amazon, Google etc. Bit different to claiming a personal
allowance. I take it you don't see the difference?

Both are perfectly legal.

I don't think I suggested otherwsie?

And in fact companies are obliged by law to
take steps to maximise shareholder return.


Which law is this?

But it's no good bleating about it - change the law instead.


How can I change the law?


--
Cheers, Rob

In article ,
pamela wrote:
What - offering jobs internally first? You think that only happens
in the public sector?

Public sector jobs should be open to the public. The public sector
belongs to all of us and the public should have a right to apply for
any protected plum jobs.

Right - so the important bit is not the best person for the job? Just any
old layabout who likes the idea of a decent salary?

--
*I speak fluent patriarchy but it's not my mother tongue

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
dennis@home wrote:
Just exactly where have I said what anyone should be paid?
On the other hand you want them to be paid union rates.

No such thing as 'union rates'. A union negotiates the rate for a job on
behalf of its members in each company it is represented in. And that is
agreed with the company management. So could just as well be called
company rate.

It may suit an industry do do this on a national basis, though.

--
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Dave Plowman London SW
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In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 17/02/18 18:25, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Sat, 17 Feb 2018 12:58:50 -0000, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
The best way would probably be to deliberately make the vehicle
inoperative, stick on the hazard lights, then you can claim you broke
down. Pull out an HT lead, then you can try to start it without success.

You have a car with an HT lead? How very quaint.

How else do you think the spark plug operates? (Diesels excepted)

You've not looked at an engine made in the last 20 years or so?

yep. coil pack, HT leads...

So you think removing one HT lead would stop it running? You probably do.

--
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Dave Plowman London SW
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In article ,
Fredxx wrote:
You only have to look at the trouble the BBC is in by trying to keep
pay a secret. Although that only really applied to very small numbers
of those it employed in one way or another.

The BBC is unusual in having to publish salaries. Most companies have
contractual clauses that prevent any discussion of salaries with other
employees in fear of dismissal.

Not surprised if they pay people based on a foreman's whim. Knowing that
another doing the same job is paid a lot more is not exactly ideal for
harmony in the workplace. Very productive having employees simmering over
that rather than getting on with the job.

--
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Dave Plowman London SW
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In article ,
James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
You've not looked at an engine made in the last 20 years or so?

Tell me how high voltage magically gets to the spark plugs.

Individual coils fit the spark plugs directly. So no HT wires.

--
*Why is the man who invests all your money called a broker? *

Dave Plowman London SW
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On 18/02/2018 07:22, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 17/02/18 22:32, dennis@home wrote:
On 17/02/2018 19:04, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 17/02/18 18:25, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Â*Â*Â* James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Sat, 17 Feb 2018 12:58:50 -0000, Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:

In article ,
Â*Â*Â* James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
The best way would probably be to deliberately make the vehicle
inoperative, stick on the hazard lights, then you can claim you
broke
down.Â* Pull out an HT lead, then you can try to start it without
success.

You have a car with an HT lead? How very quaint.

How else do you think the spark plug operates?Â* (Diesels excepted)

You've not looked at an engine made in the last 20 years or so?

yep. coil pack, HT leads...



Most recent engines have the coil pack mounted directly to the plug
and don't have any HT leads.

But not ALL Denise.

Sometimes the plugs are buried in deep and there isnt room



Where did I say all? You do understand the English word "most"?
IME you are more likely to have a coil pack fitted to a deep plug as it
is easier to fit than an HT lead.
The main reason is of course costs as its easier to assemble than one
with leads and cheaper to make.

The coil packs on the two cars I have ATM is one unit that does all four
plugs as one component with just the 12V cables to it.
I have just had to have one replaced under warranty as it was corroded.

In article ,
Fredxx wrote:
I worked for a private comapny up until I became too ill to work. Do
you work for a private company?

Yes I do, and employees are sacked if they discuss remuneration.

Crikey. See where your attitude comes from now. How very sad not being
allowed to discuss work with your colleagues.

--
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Dave Plowman London SW
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In article ,
dennis@home wrote:
Most recent engines have the coil pack mounted directly to the plug and
don't have any HT leads.

Getting on for 30 years with some.

--
*Vegetarians taste great*

Dave Plowman London SW
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In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Most recent engines have the coil pack mounted directly to the plug and
don't have any HT leads.

But not ALL Denise.

Sometimes the plugs are buried in deep and there isnt room

Err, those are the most common type to use COP. The coil is one piece so
easy to remove from the plug. A plug lead to a deeply recessed plug would
be difficult to remove without damage to it.

--
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Dave Plowman London SW
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On 18/02/2018 11:06, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
pamela wrote:
What - offering jobs internally first? You think that only happens
in the public sector?

Public sector jobs should be open to the public. The public sector
belongs to all of us and the public should have a right to apply for
any protected plum jobs.

Right - so the important bit is not the best person for the job? Just any
old layabout who likes the idea of a decent salary?


You can't always get the best person for the job if you limit it to a
subset like union members.
Having applications open to everyone doesn't mean you have to employ the
worst.
Restricting it like that just gets you the worst case.

On 18/02/2018 11:20, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Fredxx wrote:
I worked for a private comapny up until I became too ill to work. Do
you work for a private company?

Yes I do, and employees are sacked if they discuss remuneration.

Crikey. See where your attitude comes from now. How very sad not being
allowed to discuss work with your colleagues.

You get a big award from the tribunal if they do sack you for that as
its illegal.

In article ,
dennis@home wrote:
On 18/02/2018 11:06, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
pamela wrote:
What - offering jobs internally first? You think that only happens
in the public sector?

Public sector jobs should be open to the public. The public sector
belongs to all of us and the public should have a right to apply for
any protected plum jobs.

Right - so the important bit is not the best person for the job? Just any
old layabout who likes the idea of a decent salary?


You can't always get the best person for the job if you limit it to a
subset like union members.

TFL doesn't with tube drivers. Merely offers those jobs first internally.
Thus saving advertising costs too - surely to be applauded? If not enough
suitable applicants they then do advertise externally. Just what they are
doing in an attempt to get more female drivers.

Having applications open to everyone doesn't mean you have to employ the
worst.
Restricting it like that just gets you the worst case.

Really? Choosing someone known to the company and who also has probably a
good idea of what the job involves is going to be worse than selecting
someone by an interview board, etc? You must have worked with some pretty
poor people.

--
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Dave Plowman London SW
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