pamela wrote:

On 18:19 12 Feb 2018, Andrew wrote:

On 11/02/2018 20:34, Roger Hayter wrote:
Clue: I was a member of a trade union all my working life,


Thanks for confirming what I had been suspecting for some time.

I remember the 1970's when people were bullied into joining trades
unions.

I remember the day in 1983? on the day the hyde park bomb went
off. It was the day of an NHS national strike day.

When news of the bomb filtered through, most NHS front line staff
in London immediately went back to work,... but not at the London
Hospital. Here the Militant Tendancy faction who pulled all the
strings at the local unions, actually tried to physically stop
people re-entering the hospital.

In those decades, the trade unions would do anything to gain
advantage for their members at any cost whatosever to the rest of
the country.

Countless strikes in monopoly public sector services designed to
cause the public maximum discomfort attest to that.

Those legions of overpaid unsackable unionised workers plunged the
country into a mess but their game was up when Thatcher arrived and
Blair later built on her work.

This is arrant nonsense. It is a lot harder to sack people in the
public sector now than it was in seventies. Especially women. (FAOD I
think this is a good thing.) Wages have fallen and numbers have
reduced following privatisation (hence MRSA etc in our hospitals).

In the seventies the unions were mainly fighting a rearguard action
against reduction in services and inflation-induced wage cuts. You seem
to have absorbed a thoroughly dishonest account of the times. Do you
read the Mail by any chance?



--

Roger Hayter

pamela wrote:

On 20:14 12 Feb 2018, Roger Hayter wrote:

Andrew wrote:

On 11/02/2018 23:20, Max Demian wrote:
The pension terms (both contributions and benefits) have been
altered many times over the years,

Nope.

The NHS superannuation scheme has a 1/80th accrual rate and a
retirement age of 60 and a tax-free lump sum of 3x first years
pension. All this for a 6% employee contribution, and GPs,
despite being 'self-employed' are full members of this scheme.
Eat your heart out ARW if you have to make your own provision.

Had, you mean, not has. And you fail to mention the employer's
contribution which was quite large. And, interestingly, GPs have
to pay the employer's contribution out of their gross
remuneration, as self-employed. And even all that is subject to a
maximum pension pot of 1.2M which is equivalent to a relatively
moderate final salary.

It's hard for heart to feel sorry for GP's making pension
contributions when they were and may still be the best paid GPs in
the industrialised world. One received £700K last year. Union man
too, no doubt.

This was a payment for providing a service. He almost certainly had to
pay at least on and probably more than one other person to meet his
obligations. Or else finance another practice and receive reimbursement
as an entrepreneur rather than as a doctor. The remuneration of GP
practices is sufficiently complicated that unscrupulour journalists can
mislead to their heart's content by lying about it.




That was the case until 2011 when a new scheme took over with a
retirement age of 65, reduced, or no lump sum but a better
accrual rate.

There might have been changes to the civil service schemes but
some of them had a zero % employee contribution.


--

Roger Hayter

In article ,
Roger Hayter wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
Andrew wrote:

I remember the 1970's when people were bullied into joining trades
unions.

I feel very sorry for all the wimps on here who were bullied into joining
a trade union. But then, of course, it never applied to them, as that
would mean admitting they were inadequates. Only ever to others - as
reported by the Mail.

I suppose sources of info which didn't support Hitler might point out
that a lot more people have been bullied into *not* joining trade
unions.

I'd say much the same in the UK too. Although not by Hitler. Just a few UK
versions.

But then given the way people on here bandy about 'bullying' when
discussing the Brexit negotiations, their idea of bullying might be very
different to what most understand by it.

--
*There are 3 kinds of people: those who can count & those who can't.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
pamela wrote:
On 20:14 12 Feb 2018, Roger Hayter wrote:

Andrew wrote:

On 11/02/2018 23:20, Max Demian wrote:
The pension terms (both contributions and benefits) have been
altered many times over the years,

Nope.

The NHS superannuation scheme has a 1/80th accrual rate and a
retirement age of 60 and a tax-free lump sum of 3x first years
pension. All this for a 6% employee contribution, and GPs,
despite being 'self-employed' are full members of this scheme.
Eat your heart out ARW if you have to make your own provision.

Had, you mean, not has. And you fail to mention the employer's
contribution which was quite large. And, interestingly, GPs have
to pay the employer's contribution out of their gross
remuneration, as self-employed. And even all that is subject to a
maximum pension pot of 1.2M which is equivalent to a relatively
moderate final salary.

It's hard for heart to feel sorry for GP's making pension
contributions when they were and may still be the best paid GPs in
the industrialised world. One received £700K last year.

out of which he paid for his premises, his practice nurses, receptionists,
etc.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

In article ,
pamela wrote:
Perhaps you'd define the job of a trade union? To make life best
for you? Or perhaps the employers?

The Union's dishonest sham when they strike is that they are
protecting services to the public to hide their total self-interest.

Good grief. You find it odd they hype the situation? Against the standard
meja response of 'holding the country to ransom', bullying etc?
You want them to have higher standards than everyone else?

But no need to worry. You've had your wish and unions have gone out of
fashion. Resulting in far worse conditions of service for so many in the
UK. Which will get even worse when the EU legislation is repealed.

Exactly what a good Tory wants.

--
*'ome is where you 'ang your @ *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
Yes, there is this conceit here that the NHS is "the envy of the
world". Whereas in fact in countries I have lived in, no one has ever
heard of the NHS. Those overseas watching the 2012 Olympics must have
been bemused.

Ah - right. So those stories in the Mail etc about health tourists are
pure fantasy?

--
*IF A TURTLE DOESN'T HAVE A SHELL, IS HE HOMELESS OR NAKED?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
charles wrote:
It's hard for heart to feel sorry for GP's making pension
contributions when they were and may still be the best paid GPs in
the industrialised world. One received £700K last year.

out of which he paid for his premises, his practice nurses,
receptionists, etc.

Isn't there a footballer out their who 'earns' 700k *a week*? Does that
mean all footballers do?

If being a GP was such easy well paid work, surely we'd be awash with them?

--
*WHY IS THERE AN EXPIRATION DATE ON SOUR CREAM?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 13/02/2018 00:52, pamela wrote:
On 23:49 12 Feb 2018, Roger Hayter wrote:

pamela wrote:

On 20:14 12 Feb 2018, Roger Hayter wrote:

Andrew wrote:

On 11/02/2018 23:20, Max Demian wrote:
The pension terms (both contributions and benefits) have
been altered many times over the years,

Nope.

The NHS superannuation scheme has a 1/80th accrual rate and a
retirement age of 60 and a tax-free lump sum of 3x first years
pension. All this for a 6% employee contribution, and GPs,
despite being 'self-employed' are full members of this scheme.
Eat your heart out ARW if you have to make your own provision.

Had, you mean, not has. And you fail to mention the
employer's contribution which was quite large. And,
interestingly, GPs have to pay the employer's contribution out
of their gross remuneration, as self-employed. And even all
that is subject to a maximum pension pot of 1.2M which is
equivalent to a relatively moderate final salary.

It's hard for heart to feel sorry for GP's making pension
contributions when they were and may still be the best paid GPs
in the industrialised world. One received £700K last year.
Union man too, no doubt.

This was a payment for providing a service. He almost certainly
had to pay at least on and probably more than one other person to
meet his obligations. Or else finance another practice and
receive reimbursement as an entrepreneur rather than as a doctor.
The remuneration of GP practices is sufficiently complicated that
unscrupulour journalists can mislead to their heart's content by
lying about it.

I believe the £700K was the GP's salary (and associated personal
benefits) rather than his practice's profits

https://inews.co.uk/news/health/nhs-...aid-gp-doctor/


Well, you could cited the other statistics in that article - many earn
£56k, and the average is £90k.

But of course by doing that you couldn't have made your point ;-)

--
Cheers, Rob

On 13/02/2018 00:34, pamela wrote:
On 23:29 12 Feb 2018, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
pamela wrote:
In those decades, the trade unions would do anything to gain
advantage for their members at any cost whatosever to the rest of
the country.

Perhaps you'd define the job of a trade union? To make life best
for you? Or perhaps the employers?

The Union's dishonest sham when they strike is that they are
protecting services to the public to hide their total self-interest.


Not total. For example, do you know how hard it is to provide a public
service in the face of funding cuts?

Certainly, the interests of members is a part of any action - but what's
wrong with that? Who do you expect to represent workers' interests?

That said, I'm not uncritical of large unions nowadays - they can tend
to act against members to avoid the sorts of actions you're describing.


Countless strikes in monopoly public sector services designed to
cause the public maximum discomfort attest to that.

Takes two sides to cause a strike.

One is enough.


I'd re-read that :-)

Those legions of overpaid unsackable unionised workers plunged
the country into a mess but their game was up when Thatcher
arrived and Blair later built on her work.

Yup. Much better today. With people in work relying on food banks
and handouts. Just what a good tory yearns for.

I doubt unionised workers are relying on food banks and handouts.


If so (and it isn't) that's in part because of union membership, not in
spite of it.

Certainly not union bosses such as Bob Crowe of the RMT who used to
take a holiday in Rio at the very same time as his rail strike was
making life a misery for commuters.


Again, selective statistics ;-)

--
Cheers, Rob

On 13/02/2018 09:31, charles wrote:
In article ,
pamela wrote:
On 20:14 12 Feb 2018, Roger Hayter wrote:

Andrew wrote:

On 11/02/2018 23:20, Max Demian wrote:
The pension terms (both contributions and benefits) have been
altered many times over the years,

Nope.

The NHS superannuation scheme has a 1/80th accrual rate and a
retirement age of 60 and a tax-free lump sum of 3x first years
pension. All this for a 6% employee contribution, and GPs,
despite being 'self-employed' are full members of this scheme.
Eat your heart out ARW if you have to make your own provision.

Had, you mean, not has. And you fail to mention the employer's
contribution which was quite large. And, interestingly, GPs have
to pay the employer's contribution out of their gross
remuneration, as self-employed. And even all that is subject to a
maximum pension pot of 1.2M which is equivalent to a relatively
moderate final salary.

It's hard for heart to feel sorry for GP's making pension
contributions when they were and may still be the best paid GPs in
the industrialised world. One received £700K last year.

out of which he paid for his premises, his practice nurses, receptionists,
etc.


No he might not have.
He could be paying himself out of the funding they receive.

On 12/02/2018 23:29, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
pamela wrote:
In those decades, the trade unions would do anything to gain
advantage for their members at any cost whatosever to the rest of
the country.

Perhaps you'd define the job of a trade union? To make life best for you?
Or perhaps the employers?

Countless strikes in monopoly public sector services designed to
cause the public maximum discomfort attest to that.

Takes two sides to cause a strike.

No it doesn't.
People can strike for any reason they like and it may have nothing to do
with their employer as was seen in previous strikes where some unions
called out members in other industries.

The law attempts to stop this but there is still the option of
"unofficial" strikes.

In article ,
says...

In those decades, the trade unions would do anything to gain
advantage for their members at any cost whatosever to the rest of
the country.

Countless strikes in monopoly public sector services designed to
cause the public maximum discomfort attest to that.

Yes - I don't think it was coincidence that the ASLEF,
miners' and power workers' disputes always targetted their
ultimate customers - the general public - during the coldest
months of the year.

Winters in the 70s tended to be much colder than we've been
used to in recent years and, after spending hours freezing my
whotsits off on a windswept station platform in the hope that
a train might appear - eventually - glad that when I finally
got to work that our building was heated by oil fired central
heating.

Afyer I similar experience getting home - often arriving in
the middle of a 3 hopur power cut, I was also glad that we
used gas for both heating and cooking.

--

Terry

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
http://www.avg.com

In article ,
says...


The Union's dishonest sham when they strike is that they are
protecting services to the public to hide their total self-interest.


Which is why I am terrified that, when/if Corbyn gets into
power, he will carry out his pledge to 'restore the power of
the unions'.

Even assuming that the foreign car manufacturers who have
revitalised the British car industry that the left wing unions
destroyed in the 70s stay here, despite the taffif barrier
that will exist after Brexit, it won't take much more to send
them all scurrying to Europe and I certainly don't see anybody
having the slightest interest in revitalising the UK industry
for a second time - ever.


Certainly not union bosses such as Bob Crowe of the RMT who used to
take a holiday in Rio at the very same time as his rail strike was
making life a misery for commuters.


Interesting - I don't recall ever coming across that before
but I've no reason not to believe it!


--

Terry

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
http://www.avg.com

On 12/02/2018 20:14, Roger Hayter wrote:
Andrew wrote:

On 11/02/2018 23:20, Max Demian wrote:
The pension terms (both contributions and
benefits) have been altered many times over the years,

Nope.

The NHS superannuation scheme has a 1/80th accrual rate
and a retirement age of 60 and a tax-free lump sum of
3x first years pension. All this for a 6% employee
contribution, and GPs, despite being 'self-employed' are
full members of this scheme. Eat your heart out ARW if
you have to make your own provision.

Had, you mean, not has. And you fail to mention the employer's
contribution which was quite large. And, interestingly, GPs have to pay
the employer's contribution out of their gross remuneration, as
self-employed. And even all that is subject to a maximum pension pot of
1.2M which is equivalent to a relatively moderate final salary.

Relative to what? Should yield at least 35K (indexed), even if all put
in an annuity.

--
Max Demian

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
Yes, there is this conceit here that the NHS is "the envy of the
world". Whereas in fact in countries I have lived in, no one has ever
heard of the NHS. Those overseas watching the 2012 Olympics must have
been bemused.

Ah - right. So those stories in the Mail etc about health tourists are
pure fantasy?

Largely. Most cases involve people who are already illegally here, so
don't have much of choice.

--

Roger Hayter

In message , at 09:31:20 on Tue, 13
Feb 2018, charles remarked:

It's hard for heart to feel sorry for GP's making pension
contributions when they were and may still be the best paid GPs in
the industrialised world. One received £700K last year.

out of which he paid for his premises, his practice nurses,
receptionists, etc.

I think they were probably paid for out of monies received from the NHS
based on the total number of patients within his 'empire'.

What this particular individual has perhaps done is set himself up as a
kind of "CEO of a chain of surgeries", thus taking over the management
roles of the partners who would otherwise be running each of those
surgeries themselves.

I met a GP who was doing this at the end of the 90's. Rather than be in
regular practice, he set up an "after hours" agency that individual GPs
could subscribe to, with iirc five on-call grunt GPs, plus him "running
the business". His remuneration would probably show up in the quoted
studies, even though he maybe hadn't seen an actual patient for years.

Something similar is emerging in the world of education where a "Super"
Head Teacher takes over the running of a number of schools within an
amalgamated trust, thus as well as economies of scale arising from a
larger overall business, and the better management skills because they
are genuinely better at the job, there are N-1 now-redundant head
teacher salaries looking for a home.

I'm not suggesting that *all* such spare money will go to a single
individual, but a certain amount could gravitate towards them.

--
Roland Perry

In article ,
RJH wrote:
Well, you could cited the other statistics in that article - many earn
£56k, and the average is £90k.

Given a GP might need to live reasonably close to their work, is 90k that
excessive for a job which needs a lot of expensive training? About double
that of a tube train driver?

I've a feeling many of the old farts on here have no idea the percentage
of a salary that goes on housing these days, compared to when they were a
younger person.

--
*I pretend to work. - they pretend to pay me.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
RJH wrote:
Certainly, the interests of members is a part of any action - but what's
wrong with that? Who do you expect to represent workers' interests?

Workers should do what they're told and be glad to have a job. Any job. At
any pay and conditions. Surely this is obvious?

--
*Am I ambivalent? Well, yes and no.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
dennis@home wrote:
Takes two sides to cause a strike.

No it doesn't.
People can strike for any reason they like and it may have nothing to do
with their employer as was seen in previous strikes where some unions
called out members in other industries.

Right. So you'd walk out from work and not get paid on a whim then? Or
does that only apply to others?

As regards one union supporting another, would you extend any such ban to
another company supporting one which was in some form of dispute? Black
lists and so on?

The law attempts to stop this but there is still the option of
"unofficial" strikes.

Sound to me like you want is totalitarianism. Where it suits you.

--
*Hang in there, retirement is only thirty years away! *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
In article , RJH wrote:

On 13/02/2018 00:34, pamela wrote:
On 23:29 12 Feb 2018, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Takes two sides to cause a strike.

One is enough.

I'd re-read that :-)

Re-read what? Our Dave's assertion that it takes two sides is balls.

Pray tell of an industrial dispute you've been directly involved in which
was totally one sided?

I've never known of one, despite having been a union member all of my
working life. But of course having been involved, will likely know the
worker's side of the argument. Something the meja don't like to publicise.

Just like the assertion of a previous generation of snowflakes that it
takes two sides to have a war, so if we don't turn up for the next one,
there won't be one. To which I reply that the Jews didn't turn up, and
somehow they all died. Odd that.

What very twisted logic you have. I've heard of only seeing in black and
white, but those who think an industrial dispute akin to war are simply
daft.

--
*No word in the English language rhymes with month, orange, silver,purple

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Terry Casey wrote:
Yes - I don't think it was coincidence that the ASLEF,
miners' and power workers' disputes always targetted their
ultimate customers - the general public - during the coldest
months of the year.

Err, if you are going to have a dispute, best to have it when the effects
are minimal? Really?

--
*Does fuzzy logic tickle? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Terry Casey wrote:
Even assuming that the foreign car manufacturers who have
revitalised the British car industry that the left wing unions
destroyed in the 70s stay here,

I'd suggest you do a little reading about the UK motor industry of the 70s.
Rather than take what the Express says as gospel.

--
*I'm not as think as you drunk I am.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
pamela wrote:
As union involvement and miltancy declined, the UK has seen
increased prosperity arising from improved efficiency and
productivity. We have never been so well off even if there are many
things which need improvement.

Now I know you're mad.

--
*Be more or less specific *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
pamela wrote:
On 10:29 13 Feb 2018, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
Yes, there is this conceit here that the NHS is "the envy of the
world". Whereas in fact in countries I have lived in, no one has
ever heard of the NHS. Those overseas watching the 2012 Olympics
must have been bemused.

Ah - right. So those stories in the Mail etc about health tourists
are pure fantasy?

The health toursist come for a free ride, not because it's the best
ride in the world.

I suggest you read the bit I was responding to. That's why I don't just
cut and paste the entire thread.

--
*I didn't like my beard at first. Then it grew on me.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
pamela wrote:
I suggest you read the bit I was responding to. That's why I don't
just cut and paste the entire thread.

Below is your message that I replied to in its entirety. It seems to
have its own context. I replied to say health tourists come here
because their care will be free and are not drawn here because the NHS
is the best.

------------------------- START -------------------------
In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:

Yes, there is this conceit here that the NHS is "the envy of the
world". Whereas in fact in countries I have lived in, no one has ever
heard of the NHS. Those overseas watching the 2012 Olympics must have
been bemused.

So you didn't notice the part about no one abroad ever even having heard
of the NHS? Meaning those health tourists simply picked this country at
random?

--
*I stayed up all night to see where the sun went. Then it dawned on me.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 13/02/2018 13:20, pamela wrote:


An pension of £35K indexed sounds mighty comfy to me.

Its probably not that low.. the wife will probably have been employed by
the practice and be getting an NHS pension too.

I have to manage on about 20k until I am old enough to get the state
pension, if I ever get there with the increasing age of starting.

On 13/02/2018 14:32, Tim Streater wrote:

His focus seems to be specifically on causality.Â* In other words, if
bosses didn't give in to all union demands they they are a "cause" of
the ensuing strike no matter how unnecessary or disproportionate it
is. Of course that's not true.

The unions idea of the management refusing to negotiate is if they don't
cave in to all demands.
You see it all the time, the unions never appear to offer any compromise
to end a strike even if they sometimes agree to one the management offers.

On 13/02/2018 14:07, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
dennis@home wrote:
Takes two sides to cause a strike.

No it doesn't.
People can strike for any reason they like and it may have nothing to do
with their employer as was seen in previous strikes where some unions
called out members in other industries.

Right. So you'd walk out from work and not get paid on a whim then? Or
does that only apply to others?

You know as well as I do that workers were intimidated by union activists.
I have family members which were threatened if they voted not to strike
and when there is a hands in the air ballot there is no way its fair.

If you don't know this then you were never in industry and have no idea
how unions used to work and may well still work in some industries.


As regards one union supporting another, would you extend any such ban to
another company supporting one which was in some form of dispute? Black
lists and so on?

What black lists?


The law attempts to stop this but there is still the option of
"unofficial" strikes.

Sound to me like you want is totalitarianism. Where it suits you.


Just fair treatment of all workers and not just union members.
You appear to want the union to be the law.

In article ,
pamela wrote:
I'd suggest you do a little reading about the UK motor industry of
the 70s. Rather than take what the Express says as gospel.

As I recall, management were often blamed for the poor running of
British car manufacturing.

Depends on what level of management. At the top, they were more interested
in instant profit than investing for the future. Easy enough to to prove
by looking at how much investment in the German car industry of the time,
versus the UK.

While there must be some germ of truth in that, it seemed to me they
got blamed because there were fewer of them than assembly line workers
and their scapegoating kept an easy peace once it had been
eastablished.

The UK car industry of the 70s was making cars that were often outdated or
quirky and poorly designed and equiped. And even more to the point,
underdeveloped. Leaving the selling garage (in theory) to sort out any
problems, but more likely the customer. When the Japanese came along with
cars which were reliable from the off, they had a captive market just
waiting for cars the average driver wanted.

Add to that a prediliction for left wingers to rewrite history in their
academic papers and we end up with blameless workers.

More of this black and white nonsense?

However I doubt very much if management were quite so much at fault.

In a lot of cases they treated the workforce like cattle.

--
*Husband and cat lost -- reward for cat

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 13/02/2018 13:12, pamela wrote:

My experience of the NHS is that it is generally second rate. Maybe
it's free and that makes it wonderful but it's too often second rate.

What are you comparing it to?
IME it is extremely good.

In article ,
Martin wrote:
On Tue, 13 Feb 2018 14:39:06 GMT, pamela wrote:

On 14:14 13 Feb 2018, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article
,
Terry Casey wrote:
Yes - I don't think it was coincidence that the ASLEF,
miners' and power workers' disputes always targetted their
ultimate customers - the general public - during the coldest
months of the year.

Err, if you are going to have a dispute, best to have it when the
effects are minimal? Really?


The poor public were always suffering the maximum discomfort the self-
centred unions could arrrange.

That's why the long-suffering public voted to end this nonsense and got
Thatcher in. Now the UK is practically strike-free and citizens can
enjoy their daily life without being the targets of unions.

Even the millions with no job security on minimum legal salaries?

A Tory wet dream. Ms Thatcher would have been delighted.

--
*Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
pamela wrote:
Even those with poor job security are no longer the victims of union
disruption.

I take it you have never worked for a living?

--
*The e-mail of the species is more deadly than the mail *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 13/02/2018 15:15, Martin wrote:
On Tue, 13 Feb 2018 14:39:06 GMT, pamela wrote:

On 14:14 13 Feb 2018, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article
,
Terry Casey wrote:
Yes - I don't think it was coincidence that the ASLEF,
miners' and power workers' disputes always targetted their
ultimate customers - the general public - during the coldest
months of the year.

Err, if you are going to have a dispute, best to have it when the
effects are minimal? Really?


The poor public were always suffering the maximum discomfort the self-
centred unions could arrrange.

That's why the long-suffering public voted to end this nonsense and got
Thatcher in. Now the UK is practically strike-free and citizens can
enjoy their daily life without being the targets of unions.

Even the millions with no job security on minimum legal salaries?


You don't want a legal minimum then?
Then they could be paid less.

In article ,
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
In article , RJH wrote:

On 13/02/2018 00:34, pamela wrote:
On 23:29 12 Feb 2018, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Takes two sides to cause a strike.

One is enough.

I'd re-read that :-)

Re-read what? Our Dave's assertion that it takes two sides is balls.

Pray tell of an industrial dispute you've been directly involved in which
was totally one sided?

ABS strike in the 1970s against the Government Pay Freeze.



--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

On Tue, 13 Feb 2018 16:45:08 GMT, pamela wrote:

On 16:20 13 Feb 2018, dennis@home wrote:

On 13/02/2018 13:12, pamela wrote:

My experience of the NHS is that it is generally second rate.
Maybe it's free and that makes it wonderful but it's too often
second rate.

What are you comparing it to?
IME it is extremely good.


Take your pick.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/he...ld-ranking-uk-
healthcare-worse-ireland-spain-slovenia-30th-lancet-a7744131.html

OR https://tinyurl.com/ya54e3ul

Yes personal experience is a poor guide, especially on a d-i-y
group. Trouble is the people who died an infant death or didn't
survive their cancer aren't here to share their experience. Best
look at the stats.

In article ,
dennis@home wrote:
You know as well as I do that workers were intimidated by union
activists.

No I definitely don't. Perhaps you are the sort who could be intimidated
easily. By one of a few. Against many.

It's one of those things blown up out of all proportion by the right wing
meja, to give the likes of you a nice warm feeling.

--
*Haunted French pancakes give me the crepes.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
dennis@home wrote:
Even the millions with no job security on minimum legal salaries?


You don't want a legal minimum then?
Then they could be paid less.

How about you dennis? Ever tried to bring up a family on a zero hours
contact?

Or is it one of those things you feel is good for others - but not
yourself.

--
*Go the extra mile. It makes your boss look like an incompetent slacker *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
pamela wrote:
Investors held back because the British unions were disruptive.

There's a hole in your bucket...

--
*I was married by a judge. I should have asked for a jury.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 13/02/2018 19:10, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
dennis@home wrote:
You know as well as I do that workers were intimidated by union
activists.

No I definitely don't. Perhaps you are the sort who could be intimidated
easily. By one of a few. Against many.

It's one of those things blown up out of all proportion by the right wing
meja, to give the likes of you a nice warm feeling.


No its you who is denying what actually happened.

On 13/02/2018 18:36, mechanic wrote:
On Tue, 13 Feb 2018 16:45:08 GMT, pamela wrote:

On 16:20 13 Feb 2018, dennis@home wrote:

On 13/02/2018 13:12, pamela wrote:

My experience of the NHS is that it is generally second rate.
Maybe it's free and that makes it wonderful but it's too often
second rate.

What are you comparing it to?
IME it is extremely good.


Take your pick.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/he...ld-ranking-uk-
healthcare-worse-ireland-spain-slovenia-30th-lancet-a7744131.html

OR https://tinyurl.com/ya54e3ul

Yes personal experience is a poor guide, especially on a d-i-y
group. Trouble is the people who died an infant death or didn't
survive their cancer aren't here to share their experience. Best
look at the stats.


The trouble with that is they don't tell you what weighting the used.
eg. does 10 cancer deaths cause a big drop while saving 1000 stroke
victims doesn't cause a big increase?