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Andrew wrote:

On 10/02/2018 23:57, Roger Hayter wrote:
And so they should expect because that is what the government, through
its executive organisations, contracted with them to do.


ROFL. The age-old 'contract' excuse.

When these people started work their lifespan was assumed to
be as much as 15 years LESS than we now know that it will be.
when these people started work (in the 70's) the concept of
'retiring abroad' was not considered (apart from the Windrush
folk going home). Now we have an army of baby-boomers
retiring to other EU countries (and even Reuinion) with
pensions that were originally factored into the whole GDP
equation.


That is simply untrue. The pension terms (both contributions and
benefits) have been altered many times over the years, in light of such
factors as rising life spans, and the discovery that women were
independent human beings who warranted equal pension rights.




QED, all these people have RENEGED on their side of the
contract, so why should the *taxpayer* be forced to make
up the difference ?.


There was no such bargain. There could have been, but there wasn't.
Again, there have been ample opportunities to change the rules if anyone
had wanted to.





The increase in longevity that the ONS famously missed,
has made people buying annuities take the hit on the chin,
100%. But no such correction has been made to public service
pensions. Even the 2011 so-called reforms to public service
pensions *excused* the baby-boomers because they were
within 10 years of retirement.


There were some highly significant retrospective changes. Not least to
the maximum notional pension pot before draconian taxation, and maximal
annual increases in value (not the same as contributions).


The next gen will have to
retire at 65 and probably without the eye-watering lump
sum, but probably with a better accrual rate than 40/80th's.

Free Lunches don't exist.


No and there has been nearly ten years of pay freeze in the public
sector.


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Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
Handsome Jack wrote:
What we are unhappy with is that public sector employees typically get
far better pension arrangements than others, for no good reason than
that the people who run public sector organisations can force the
taxpayer to fund them.


Who is the 'we' you talk about? Who do you represent?

In general, like for like,public service employees have poorer pay than
the private sector. In part made up by a pension.


The "we" is the cowardly jackals in the private sector, too keen to vote
for Thatcher, and too individualistic to support trade unions, who were
therefore easily cheated out of the final salary pensions schemes most
large private companies had. The proceeds of these were given as a
bonus to private equity investors and such. Too cowardly and
individualistic to protect their own pensions they now, as jackals do,
turn on the public sector and say it is *not fair* that we should keep
what they have given away. They are too keen to help their bosses, the
private equity investors and their lackeys, to steal our pensions too.
They are more keen to drag others down to their level to make themselves
feel better than to stand up like brave citizens for their own rights as
workers. Clue: I was a member of a trade union all my working life,
but most of them believed Thatcher that they were better off bargaining
as individuals than cooperating. They want to steal our pensions for
their rich bosses! Pathetic!





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Andrew wrote:

On 11/02/2018 00:18, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Do they? Have you done a survey to be so sure?


It's all there in the official mortality stats.

There are now 567,000 people aged 90+.

There are 14,500 people aged 100+.

These totals are relentlessly increasing.


There may be a lag on these totals, but life expectancy is currently
decreasing, so ultimately the growth will reverse. Who knows how
temporary this is, but Brexit and NHS privatisation will probably not be
good for life expectancy.


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Andrew wrote:

On 11/02/2018 19:04, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In general, like for like,public service employees have poorer pay than
the private sector. In part made up by a pension.


RUBBISH !.

The OECD totally disproved this. The days when NHS professional
staff were 'underpaid' and the pension was a compensation
vanished during 13 years of Nulabia when the NHS budget went
up from £37 Billion to £115 Billion, and a massive chunk of that
went towards pay rises.


I think the OECD figures inadequately account for skill levels in the
two sectors. At best they are speculative, and I don't think OECD is a
pro-nationalisation organisation.

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On 11/02/2018 20:34, Roger Hayter wrote:
Andrew wrote:
On 10/02/2018 23:57, Roger Hayter wrote:


And so they should expect because that is what the government, through
its executive organisations, contracted with them to do.


ROFL. The age-old 'contract' excuse.

When these people started work their lifespan was assumed to
be as much as 15 years LESS than we now know that it will be.
when these people started work (in the 70's) the concept of
'retiring abroad' was not considered (apart from the Windrush
folk going home). Now we have an army of baby-boomers
retiring to other EU countries (and even Reuinion) with
pensions that were originally factored into the whole GDP
equation.


That is simply untrue. The pension terms (both contributions and
benefits) have been altered many times over the years, in light of such
factors as rising life spans, and the discovery that women were
independent human beings who warranted equal pension rights.


Like having to retire at 65 rather than 60?

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On Sun, 11 Feb 2018 20:01:35 +0000, Andrew wrote:

It's all there in the official mortality stats.

There are now 567,000 people aged 90+.

There are 14,500 people aged 100+.

These totals are relentlessly increasing.


The country's unfunded pension liabilities towards the elderly alone will
break us, let alone the costs of their care needs; medicines and surgical
requirements in later life!



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On Sun, 11 Feb 2018 19:59:37 +0000, Andrew wrote:

The increase in longevity that the ONS famously missed,
has made people buying annuities take the hit on the chin, 100%. But no
such correction has been made to public service pensions. Even the 2011
so-called reforms to public service pensions *excused* the baby-boomers
because they were within 10 years of retirement. The next gen will have
to retire at 65 and probably without the eye-watering lump sum, but
probably with a better accrual rate than 40/80th's.


75-80 more like! When the pension was first introduced, most people
(certainly the men) were lucky to live for 6 months after retiring. That
model is flat bust today, as will the country be unless drastic action is
taken bloody soon (it's probably already too late).


Free Lunches don't exist.


And never have, as the Milenials are finding out.





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In article ,
Andrew wrote:
On 11/02/2018 19:04, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In general, like for like,public service employees have poorer pay than
the private sector. In part made up by a pension.


RUBBISH !.


The OECD totally disproved this. The days when NHS professional
staff were 'underpaid' and the pension was a compensation
vanished during 13 years of Nulabia when the NHS budget went
up from £37 Billion to £115 Billion, and a massive chunk of that
went towards pay rises.


And that has been reversed by the present government.
Not all public sector workers are in the NHS either.

And is it the NHS the likes of pamela has be criticised as being clock
watchers and generally lazy/inefficient? If so that is certainly not my
experience.

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On Mon, 12 Feb 2018 00:20:07 +0000, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

And is it the NHS the likes of pamela has be criticised as being clock
watchers and generally lazy/inefficient? If so that is certainly not my
experience.


Pamela does talk the most amazing amount of ********.



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In message , at 20:43:32 on Sun,
11 Feb 2018, Roger Hayter remarked:
In general, like for like,public service employees have poorer pay than
the private sector. In part made up by a pension.


RUBBISH !.

The OECD totally disproved this. The days when NHS professional
staff were 'underpaid' and the pension was a compensation
vanished during 13 years of Nulabia when the NHS budget went
up from £37 Billion to £115 Billion, and a massive chunk of that
went towards pay rises.


I think the OECD figures inadequately account for skill levels in the
two sectors. At best they are speculative, and I don't think OECD is a
pro-nationalisation organisation.


The OECD is not political at all. It merely aggregates statistics
supplied by member states. And very professionally too.
--
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In message , at 11:32:18 on Mon, 12
Feb 2018, pamela remarked:
"The majority voted for a Unicorn, so we have to find one".

But they didn't vote for a unicorn. They voted for no SM, no CU,
no ECJ, no more EU laws, no dosh to Brussels. It's really very
simple.


So the Unicorn seekers like David Davis (who wants all the
benefits to continue, and none of the obligations) are in fact
misinterpreting their brief?


Why blame David Davis when it's Theresa May calling the shots?

She clearly doesn't have her heart in the way Brexit is heading but
is doing her best, which may noy be enough, to hold it together.

May was a borderline Remainer before the referendum and, although she
kept quiet, she probably does believe Brexit is a Unicorn hunt.


The current stance of "no customs union" is pretty 'hard Brexit'. Only
time will tell whether that sends Eire off the deep end for a second
time.

Where DD is making himself look foolish is his insistence that the
government's position is clear "we want our cake and eat it", when
responding to calls from Barnier to "make the position clear, because
you can't have your cake and eat it".
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Roland Perry wrote:

In message , at 20:43:32 on Sun,
11 Feb 2018, Roger Hayter remarked:
In general, like for like,public service employees have poorer pay than
the private sector. In part made up by a pension.

RUBBISH !.

The OECD totally disproved this. The days when NHS professional
staff were 'underpaid' and the pension was a compensation
vanished during 13 years of Nulabia when the NHS budget went
up from £37 Billion to £115 Billion, and a massive chunk of that
went towards pay rises.


I think the OECD figures inadequately account for skill levels in the
two sectors. At best they are speculative, and I don't think OECD is a
pro-nationalisation organisation.


The OECD is not political at all. It merely aggregates statistics
supplied by member states. And very professionally too.


There is no such thing as a non-political organisation.
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In message , at 13:04:33 on Mon,
12 Feb 2018, pamela remarked:

David Davies may have the worst job in Britain.

He's been asked to arrange for the UK to go off to some hare-brained
objective but the UK is in too weak a negotiating position to get
the dreams of Brexiteers


The tragedy was it was always obvious to anyone with a knowledge of the
EU's structure we'd have a weak negotiating position.

Like leaving a golf club (in the extreme without paying the final bar
bill) and expecting to be allowed back to play golf, accompanied by free
drinks at the 19th hole, whenever it suited us.

Or some perhaps thought "with the green fees we save, we'll be able to
build our own golf course".

who, undismayed, keep making ever more demands as the impracticability
of what they initially wanted reveals itself.


I'm not sure the demands are "ever greater", just that they become more
nuanced such as "when we said we wanted free drinks, obviously that
meant free crisps to go with them, too".
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In message , at 12:33:50 on
Mon, 12 Feb 2018, Roger Hayter remarked:

In general, like for like,public service employees have poorer pay than
the private sector. In part made up by a pension.

RUBBISH !.

The OECD totally disproved this. The days when NHS professional
staff were 'underpaid' and the pension was a compensation
vanished during 13 years of Nulabia when the NHS budget went
up from £37 Billion to £115 Billion, and a massive chunk of that
went towards pay rises.

I think the OECD figures inadequately account for skill levels in the
two sectors. At best they are speculative, and I don't think OECD is a
pro-nationalisation organisation.


The OECD is not political at all. It merely aggregates statistics
supplied by member states. And very professionally too.


There is no such thing as a non-political organisation.


There's always going to be office-politics, but objective statistical
analysis is not an impossibility.

Next you'll be telling me the BBC is politically biassed against the
Labour Party, for which I'll find you someone convinced they are biassed
against the Tories.
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In article ,
Huge wrote:
Whereas it's quite easy to spot the "over-charging monopolists, crooks
and incompetents" in the State system. It's everyone involved.


Interesting. A pal is being treated under the NHS only for pancreatic
cancer. And has nothing but praise for his treatment.

His sister recently died of lung cancer in the US. Her tales of her
treatment - and costs - make the blood run cold. Despite having had
private insurance before it was withdrawn.

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In article ,
pamela wrote:
And is it the NHS the likes of pamela has be criticised as being
clock watchers and generally lazy/inefficient? If so that is
certainly not my experience.


Ths thread was orginally talking about local authorities when I posted.


That's what I thought. But it didn't stop others lumping in all those who
are paid for by the 'state'.

I've not really had enough contact with our council to form an opinion,
except that what little I have has been OK.

When I bought this house, the council building surveyor was most helpful
with the modifications I wanted to do.

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In article ,
Roland Perry wrote:
Where DD is making himself look foolish is his insistence that the
government's position is clear "we want our cake and eat it", when
responding to calls from Barnier to "make the position clear, because
you can't have your cake and eat it".


Quite.

EU: Tell us what you want.

UK: Tell us what you're offering.

The UK is the one leaving the EU, but still wanting some of the benefits
of being a member. Most of those with common sense would expect them to
know what they want exactly.

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Roland Perry wrote:

In message , at 12:33:50 on Mon,
12 Feb 2018, Roger Hayter remarked:

In general, like for like,public service employees have poorer pay
than the private sector. In part made up by a pension.

RUBBISH !.

The OECD totally disproved this. The days when NHS professional
staff were 'underpaid' and the pension was a compensation
vanished during 13 years of Nulabia when the NHS budget went
up from £37 Billion to £115 Billion, and a massive chunk of that
went towards pay rises.

I think the OECD figures inadequately account for skill levels in the
two sectors. At best they are speculative, and I don't think OECD is a
pro-nationalisation organisation.

The OECD is not political at all. It merely aggregates statistics
supplied by member states. And very professionally too.


There is no such thing as a non-political organisation.


There's always going to be office-politics, but objective statistical
analysis is not an impossibility.

Next you'll be telling me the BBC is politically biassed against the
Labour Party, for which I'll find you someone convinced they are biassed
against the Tories.


The fact that neither of our political parties (between whom it would
historically be hard to insert a cigarette paper) likes the BBC's
coverage does not mean that it is somehow capable of non-political
coverage of news.


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In message , at 15:00:52 on
Mon, 12 Feb 2018, Tim Streater remarked:

"The majority voted for a Unicorn, so we have to find one".

But they didn't vote for a unicorn. They voted for no SM, no CU,
no ECJ, no more EU laws, no dosh to Brussels. It's really very
simple.

So the Unicorn seekers like David Davis (who wants all the
benefits to continue, and none of the obligations) are in fact
misinterpreting their brief?

Why blame David Davis when it's Theresa May calling the shots?

She clearly doesn't have her heart in the way Brexit is heading but
is doing her best, which may noy be enough, to hold it together.

May was a borderline Remainer before the referendum and, although she
kept quiet, she probably does believe Brexit is a Unicorn hunt.


The current stance of "no customs union" is pretty 'hard Brexit'.


No, it's brexit, as I wrote above.


There are various flavours. Some people who want Brexit support for
example a "Norway solution", which is in some ways a "worst of all
worlds". But still a Brexit.
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In message , at 15:34:15 on
Mon, 12 Feb 2018, Roger Hayter remarked:
Next you'll be telling me the BBC is politically biassed against the
Labour Party, for which I'll find you someone convinced they are biassed
against the Tories.


The fact that neither of our political parties (between whom it would
historically be hard to insert a cigarette paper) likes the BBC's
coverage does not mean that it is somehow capable of non-political
coverage of news.


Nor that it isn't.
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In article ,
Roger Hayter wrote:
The fact that neither of our political parties (between whom it would
historically be hard to insert a cigarette paper) likes the BBC's
coverage does not mean that it is somehow capable of non-political
coverage of news.


It's pretty well impossible to write a new piece or do an interview
without upsetting one side or the other. Just look how many believe false
news on here.

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In message , at 16:36:16 on Mon, 12 Feb
2018, "Dave Plowman (News)" remarked:

Just look how many believe false news on here.


Isn't the expression "fake news", which recursively is something Trump
claims he coined.
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On 11/02/2018 23:20, Max Demian wrote:
The pension terms (both contributions and
benefits) have been altered many times over the years,


Nope.

The NHS superannuation scheme has a 1/80th accrual rate
and a retirement age of 60 and a tax-free lump sum of
3x first years pension. All this for a 6% employee
contribution, and GPs, despite being 'self-employed' are
full members of this scheme. Eat your heart out ARW if
you have to make your own provision.

That was the case until 2011 when a new scheme took over
with a retirement age of 65, reduced, or no lump sum but
a better accrual rate.

There might have been changes to the civil service schemes
but some of them had a zero % employee contribution.
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On 11/02/2018 20:43, Roger Hayter wrote:
NHS privatisation will probably not be
good for life expectancy.


What NHS privatisation ?. Typical socialist
lies.

Phony Liar make full use of private companies to
reduce waiting lists, so what's the issue.

My local butcher had his hip replaced at Goring Hall?
a local private hospital. He said the room and food
were fantastic, and it cost him nothing, because the
local Commissioning group, or whatever the NHS is
called these days, paid for it.
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On 11/02/2018 23:58, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Sun, 11 Feb 2018 20:01:35 +0000, Andrew wrote:

It's all there in the official mortality stats.

There are now 567,000 people aged 90+.

There are 14,500 people aged 100+.

These totals are relentlessly increasing.


The country's unfunded pension liabilities towards the elderly alone will
break us, let alone the costs of their care needs; medicines and surgical
requirements in later life!



They were massive, but manageable when Mrs T was in power, but 13 years
of NuLabia put paid to that when they allowed public service wages,
notably in the NHS to explode (OECD figures).

This, of course had an exponential effect on the size of the unfunded
pensions liability. The NHS superannuation scheme is totally unfunded.


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On 12/02/2018 00:20, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
And that has been reversed by the present government.


No chance. The pay freeze would have to stay in place
for a few more years before the balance between private
and public sector wages was anywhere near back in
balance.
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On 12/02/2018 11:41, pamela wrote:
As you bring up the NHS, I find they are not clock watchers except for
some in administrative departments.


I speak from experience.

I worked in the path labs of two district general hospitals
where there were 50% more people than actually needed to do
the work. The most senior path lab staff were just glorified
admin clerks, ordering stuff and looking after leave and sick
leave requests. I remember several 'clock and pension watchers'.

Some days it was a struggle to find something to do after lunch
because most of the work arrived from the wards and OP clinics
during the morning.

By contrast, the LOndon teaching hospital that I moved to in the
mid 70's was busy all day. I never once felt bored during my time
there. Every day, something interesting, pathology-wise turned up.

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On 11/02/2018 20:34, Roger Hayter wrote:
Clue: I was a member of a trade union all my working life,



Thanks for confirming what I had been suspecting for some time.

I remember the 1970's when people were bullied into joining trades
unions.

I remember the day in 1983? on the day the hyde park bomb went off.
It was the day of an NHS national strike day.

When news of the bomb filtered through, most NHS front line staff
in London immediately went back to work,... but not at the London
Hospital. Here the Militant Tendancy faction who pulled all the strings
at the local unions, actually tried to physically stop people
re-entering the hospital.

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On 12/02/2018 14:09, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Interesting. A pal is being treated under the NHS only for pancreatic
cancer. And has nothing but praise for his treatment.


Except that it is one of the most difficult to diagnose (= late
diagnosis) and difficult to treat.

I hope he has ticked as much of his bucket list as possible. :-(
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In message , at 18:20:54 on Mon, 12
Feb 2018, pamela remarked:

There are various flavours. Some people who want Brexit support
for example a "Norway solution", which is in some ways a "worst of
all worlds". But still a Brexit.


Brexit in name only (BRINO) is also Brexit and is the one I support.

This variant aims at a customs union identical to what we have now.


But no say whatsoever regarding the rules regarding what's in and out.

Not just voting in Brussels whether to prohibit bent bananas.

It's fake news that everything is in - Norway suffers from a special
tariff on exports of salmon to the EU, for example.
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In article ,
Andrew wrote:

I remember the 1970's when people were bullied into joining trades
unions.


I feel very sorry for all the wimps on here who were bullied into joining
a trade union. But then, of course, it never applied to them, as that
would mean admitting they were inadequates. Only ever to others - as
reported by the Mail.

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Dave Plowman London SW
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Default WRF is non-adult social care?

In article ,
Andrew wrote:
On 12/02/2018 14:09, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Interesting. A pal is being treated under the NHS only for pancreatic
cancer. And has nothing but praise for his treatment.


Except that it is one of the most difficult to diagnose (= late
diagnosis) and difficult to treat.


Indeed. He is seeing a specialist in Oxford.

I hope he has ticked as much of his bucket list as possible. :-(


So far, so good.

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Dave Plowman London SW
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Andrew wrote:

On 11/02/2018 23:20, Max Demian wrote:
The pension terms (both contributions and
benefits) have been altered many times over the years,


Nope.

The NHS superannuation scheme has a 1/80th accrual rate
and a retirement age of 60 and a tax-free lump sum of
3x first years pension. All this for a 6% employee
contribution, and GPs, despite being 'self-employed' are
full members of this scheme. Eat your heart out ARW if
you have to make your own provision.


Had, you mean, not has. And you fail to mention the employer's
contribution which was quite large. And, interestingly, GPs have to pay
the employer's contribution out of their gross remuneration, as
self-employed. And even all that is subject to a maximum pension pot of
1.2M which is equivalent to a relatively moderate final salary.




That was the case until 2011 when a new scheme took over
with a retirement age of 65, reduced, or no lump sum but
a better accrual rate.

There might have been changes to the civil service schemes
but some of them had a zero % employee contribution.



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Andrew wrote:

On 11/02/2018 20:43, Roger Hayter wrote:
NHS privatisation will probably not be
good for life expectancy.


What NHS privatisation ?. Typical socialist
lies.

Phony Liar make full use of private companies to
reduce waiting lists, so what's the issue.

My local butcher had his hip replaced at Goring Hall?
a local private hospital. He said the room and food
were fantastic, and it cost him nothing, because the
local Commissioning group, or whatever the NHS is
called these days, paid for it.


Which of course on reason why they have no money left to pay for beds to
treat ill old people in.

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Andrew wrote:

On 11/02/2018 23:58, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Sun, 11 Feb 2018 20:01:35 +0000, Andrew wrote:

It's all there in the official mortality stats.

There are now 567,000 people aged 90+.

There are 14,500 people aged 100+.

These totals are relentlessly increasing.


The country's unfunded pension liabilities towards the elderly alone will
break us, let alone the costs of their care needs; medicines and surgical
requirements in later life!



They were massive, but manageable when Mrs T was in power, but 13 years
of NuLabia put paid to that when they allowed public service wages,
notably in the NHS to explode (OECD figures).


Senior hospital doctors' pay was somewhat lower in real terms at the end
of Brown's reign that it was in 1979. And even lower now. Much of the
increase in NHS pay was due to minimum wage laws, and largely represents
how very low pay was before. Other "huge" increases went to pay nurses
enough that *any* British trained nurses were willing to continue.




This, of course had an exponential effect on the size of the unfunded
pensions liability. The NHS superannuation scheme is totally unfunded.



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Roland Perry wrote:

In message , at 15:34:15 on
Mon, 12 Feb 2018, Roger Hayter remarked:
Next you'll be telling me the BBC is politically biassed against the
Labour Party, for which I'll find you someone convinced they are biassed
against the Tories.


The fact that neither of our political parties (between whom it would
historically be hard to insert a cigarette paper) likes the BBC's
coverage does not mean that it is somehow capable of non-political
coverage of news.


Nor that it isn't.


No. It is I asserting that it isn't. And you asserting that the major
parties not liking it "proves" it is non-political. I have dismissed
your argument rather than supporting my own. My own argument is largely
a priori.

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Andrew wrote:

On 11/02/2018 20:34, Roger Hayter wrote:
Clue: I was a member of a trade union all my working life,



Thanks for confirming what I had been suspecting for some time.

I remember the 1970's when people were bullied into joining trades
unions.


I wasn't.


I remember the day in 1983? on the day the hyde park bomb went off.
It was the day of an NHS national strike day.

When news of the bomb filtered through, most NHS front line staff
in London immediately went back to work,... but not at the London
Hospital. Here the Militant Tendancy faction who pulled all the strings
at the local unions, actually tried to physically stop people
re-entering the hospital.


Which just proves that Trotskyites are agents of capitalism, a fact of
which Stalin was well aware. So, they were class traitors and idiots -
I don't suppose they lasted long. But the unions did.



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In article ,
pamela wrote:
In those decades, the trade unions would do anything to gain
advantage for their members at any cost whatosever to the rest of
the country.


Perhaps you'd define the job of a trade union? To make life best for you?
Or perhaps the employers?

Countless strikes in monopoly public sector services designed to
cause the public maximum discomfort attest to that.


Takes two sides to cause a strike.

Those legions of overpaid unsackable unionised workers plunged the
country into a mess but their game was up when Thatcher arrived and
Blair later built on her work.


Yup. Much better today. With people in work relying on food banks and
handouts. Just what a good tory yearns for.

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Dave Plowman London SW
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In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
As we franchise the Train Operating Companies, we should franchise the
unions too. Passengers could vote on which union gets to represent the
workforce during the TOC franchise - with a recall option.


Interesting. You object to the EU that we pay into making decisions that
you think not in the best interests of this country.

But expect a union - paid for by the members - to be controlled by a third
party, if it can be bothered to vote.

I'm sure Rees Mogg is with you 100%.

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Dave Plowman London SW
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Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
Andrew wrote:

I remember the 1970's when people were bullied into joining trades
unions.


I feel very sorry for all the wimps on here who were bullied into joining
a trade union. But then, of course, it never applied to them, as that
would mean admitting they were inadequates. Only ever to others - as
reported by the Mail.


I suppose sources of info which didn't support Hitler might point out
that a lot more people have been bullied into *not* joining trade
unions.


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