In article ,
Fredxx wrote:
It doesn't sound like you have been in a merit based pay scheme.

Merit based schemes have been proven not to work.

They benefit the hard working ones who are going places irrespective of
bonuses, and disincentivise those who struggle and reduce their
performance.

So overall an expensive useless exercise.

Much the same as piece work which was once the fashion.

Basically the idea of theorists with no real experience of working those
conditions. And certainly no true figures to prove their theories work.

--
*How much deeper would the oceans be without sponges? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Hit cylinder heds withburied plugs are not oideal fpr
electronics.

Do wish you'd actually write English, but if you mean what I think you
mean, look at any modern BMW twin cam engine.

Plugs deeply recessed. And active COP.

With active coils, it's usually exhaust manifold heat they need to be kept
clear of.

--
*I tried to catch some fog, but I mist.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
pamela wrote:
On 00:12 20 Feb 2018, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
pamela wrote:
I simply don't believe you. The work required would be
enormous. And that costs come straight from profits.

You're in denial but that is how it works. I am amazed you don't
know this. Have a look he

https://www.cipd.co.uk/knowledge/fun.../pay/performan
ce -factsheet

"Performance-related pay (PRP) is a way of managing pay by
linking salary progression to an assessment of individual
performance, usually measured against pre-agreed objectives."

Just as I thought. HR inventing work for themselves.

This discussion should end as it's not going anywhere. It's been
interesting you hear your points because I don't normally come
across such genuinely held views and it's worth having another
perspective.

Thing is, pamela, I really can't see any large company assessing each and
every one of its employees individually each year or whatever for
remuneration. From cleaners to CEO. Even those who claim to give lip
service to the idea. The amount of work would be horrendous, and likely
upset more of the workforce than any benefits to some. And a content
workforce that feel they are well and fairly treated is IMHO important for
any company to be successful long term. Although that notion won't suit
many on here who think a worker should just do whatever he's told and be
grateful. However, it is very much my personal experience. In a job where
you rely on people using their initiative.

I should make clear that everything I've said about unions does not
immediately apply to yourself and I hope I've not disparaged your
actual work at in my posts. I have a high regard for sound
engineering and look up to those skills.

I tend to speak from my own experience. And get very upset when people
form their views of all unions from what they read in the right wing
press, etc.

It's also quite odd that so many who talk about freedom and choices for
themselves are so keen to control pay in other jobs they have zero
knowledge about - except perhaps as an end user.

I think the pay of some footballers is ridiculous. And the over inflated
pay of many a CEO (etc) - especially in a company which isn't doing well.
But then I'm not a CEO or a footballer. ;-)

--
*Why is it called tourist season if we can't shoot at them?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Monday, 19 February 2018 18:41:51 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
A tradesman's permit can allow the space outside the house being worked on
to be reserves for him. Think skips, etc.

You don;t have a legal right to reserve any space even one outside yuor
home, my dad tried that years ago puttign out a wheelie bin so a
trademan could deliver some paving slabs, but you DO NOT have the right
to reserve a parking space for ANYONE else not even yourself.

That's why you need a special permit for tradesmen, etc. From the council.
Who do have the rights.

And that relates to a parking zone NOT a persons adresss.


Good to know your dad was as daft as yourself...

Yes a person is daft to think an individual owns the road outside their house just because they pay council and road tax, they do not own the road.



--
*WHAT IF THERE WERE NO HYPOTHETICAL QUESTIONS?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In message , at 10:55:29 on Tue, 20 Feb
2018, "Dave Plowman (News)" remarked:

Thing is, pamela, I really can't see any large company assessing each and
every one of its employees individually each year or whatever for
remuneration. From cleaners to CEO. Even those who claim to give lip
service to the idea. The amount of work would be horrendous, and likely
upset more of the workforce than any benefits to some.

Except it does happen a lot, and is one of those things 'managers' are
employed for. For a routine desk job in industry it shouldn't take up
more than a few hours time, once a year, per employee.

In some professions, like teaching, it could be a rather more long drawn
out process.
--
Roland Perry

On Tue, 20 Feb 2018 10:32:44 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Fredxx wrote:
It doesn't sound like you have been in a merit based pay scheme.

Merit based schemes have been proven not to work.

They benefit the hard working ones who are going places irrespective of
bonuses, and disincentivise those who struggle and reduce their
performance.

So overall an expensive useless exercise.

Much the same as piece work which was once the fashion.

Basically the idea of theorists with no real experience of working those
conditions. And certainly no true figures to prove their theories work.

When working for BT on bench electronics repair I was taken aside by
the union rep and asked to slow down.

They had negotiated a time with 'da management' and (apparently) it
made the other workers look bad if someone was doing the work in half
the agreed time. ;-(

The frustrating thing was that you couldn't work at your normal speed
and then do (appropriate) 'private' stuff to make up the time, you
actually had to work slower. ;-(

I left BT and went to Kodak [1] as a field tech and they had much more
realistic time expectations.

Luckily I could still work and walk quickly and knew all the shortcuts
around central London but some did have trouble keeping up.

Cheers, T i m

[1] During your induction they gave you a *very* well equipped tool
case and when we all walking into the main office on our first day the
established tech's chuckled at us. During the first week we all shed
some of the heavier / less important tools, even replacing the large
tool case with something more compact and walking / public transport
friendly. ;-)

On Tuesday, 20 February 2018 12:02:32 UTC, T i m wrote:
On Tue, 20 Feb 2018 10:32:44 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Fredxx wrote:
It doesn't sound like you have been in a merit based pay scheme.

Merit based schemes have been proven not to work.

They benefit the hard working ones who are going places irrespective of
bonuses, and disincentivise those who struggle and reduce their
performance.

So overall an expensive useless exercise.

Much the same as piece work which was once the fashion.

Basically the idea of theorists with no real experience of working those
conditions. And certainly no true figures to prove their theories work.

When working for BT on bench electronics repair I was taken aside by
the union rep and asked to slow down.

We had a simialr thing here but not from the unions but those doing the work said the harder you work the more work you'll be given and the less likely you are to get promoted and then you'll hear how well managment have done and that uis why they have got promoted. It takes a long time to understand this and I'm now passing on this wisdom to newcomers. It;s not quite as bad as it was but the culture is still the same, even after telling managment what is going wrong they sill don't listen unless it;s in their interest.


They had negotiated a time with 'da management' and (apparently) it
made the other workers look bad if someone was doing the work in half
the agreed time. ;-(

Yep if management get jobs done quicker they go home or to a meeting.......


The frustrating thing was that you couldn't work at your normal speed
and then do (appropriate) 'private' stuff to make up the time, you
actually had to work slower. ;-(

That would be annoying, but why it's taken managment 30+ years to sort the heating in the building out I'm not quite sure, must be all those 'workers' working slow.


I left BT and went to Kodak [1] as a field tech and they had much more
realistic time expectations.

How are kodak doing today as they didn;t think digital photography would catch on quite so quick so sort of mised the boat.

In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
On Monday, 19 February 2018 18:41:51 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
A tradesman's permit can allow the space outside the house being worked on
to be reserves for him. Think skips, etc.

You don;t have a legal right to reserve any space even one outside
yuor home, my dad tried that years ago puttign out a wheelie bin so
a trademan could deliver some paving slabs, but you DO NOT have the
right to reserve a parking space for ANYONE else not even yourself.

That's why you need a special permit for tradesmen, etc. From the
council. Who do have the rights.

And that relates to a parking zone NOT a persons adresss.

Don't be silly. Not much use having a skip several streets away. The same
resident's parking zone here extends for about a mile.

--
*Windows will never cease *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 10:55:29 on Tue, 20 Feb
2018, "Dave Plowman (News)" remarked:

Thing is, pamela, I really can't see any large company assessing each and
every one of its employees individually each year or whatever for
remuneration. From cleaners to CEO. Even those who claim to give lip
service to the idea. The amount of work would be horrendous, and likely
upset more of the workforce than any benefits to some.

Except it does happen a lot, and is one of those things 'managers' are
employed for. For a routine desk job in industry it shouldn't take up
more than a few hours time, once a year, per employee.

In some professions, like teaching, it could be a rather more long drawn
out process.

Eh? How many teachers in the average school?

Compared to many thousands in a large company?

--
*Any connection between your reality and mine is purely coincidental

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
T i m wrote:
Basically the idea of theorists with no real experience of working those
conditions. And certainly no true figures to prove their theories work.

When working for BT on bench electronics repair I was taken aside by
the union rep and asked to slow down.

Care to say which year this was?

--
*A picture may be worth a thousand words, but it uses up a thousand times more memory.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Tuesday, 20 February 2018 13:54:44 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
On Monday, 19 February 2018 18:41:51 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
A tradesman's permit can allow the space outside the house being worked on
to be reserves for him. Think skips, etc.

You don;t have a legal right to reserve any space even one outside
yuor home, my dad tried that years ago puttign out a wheelie bin so
a trademan could deliver some paving slabs, but you DO NOT have the
right to reserve a parking space for ANYONE else not even yourself.

That's why you need a special permit for tradesmen, etc. From the
council. Who do have the rights.

And that relates to a parking zone NOT a persons adresss.

Don't be silly. Not much use having a skip several streets away. The same
resident's parking zone here extends for about a mile.

Same here I assume and the skip doesn't have rights to be put anywhere. The idea is to have it outside as close as possible to where you want it but you can't designate a spot for it, and this is why people put out cones and wheelie bins in the road but you don;t own the road so don;t really have that right to 'own' that spot or any other on a public road.

On 20/02/2018 13:49, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:


Don't be silly. Not much use having a skip several streets away. The same
resident's parking zone here extends for about a mile.


I don't think a residents permit would cover a skip, they would charge
much more for a permit to put a skip in the street.

On 20/02/2018 07:31, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 19/02/18 13:05, dennis@home wrote:
On 19/02/2018 07:35, The Natural Philosopher wrote:


This habit of yours = of picking some isolated factoid from a
particular case and implying that it is in fact the general case and
universal,

Funny that *I* posted the explanation of how and why it works while
you just posted a comment to try and score whatever points you think
you are getting.

No, the exact opposote

So now you are claiming to have posted the link to how it works?



just to trayt and fain attention and win arguments, is as obnoxious
as wiping your arse with your bare nhands and licking them.

Please desist.

Why? don't you want explanations of why you were wrong posting?

I wasnt.
Why don't you put me back in your killfile and shut up.

Because you appeared on cam.misc

So fix your killfile.
If I kill file you then I killfile you in all groups.


If you recall the question was whether or not modern cars had HT leads.

So what, that is not what I answered and the thread had already drifted
of that.
You do read what's posted?


Some cars do and some do not, depending on whether the coil pack - a
term for a coil or coils plus some electronics - is remote from the
plugs or not. Hit cylinder heds withburied plugs are not oideal fpr
electronics.


That degenerated into more misinformation about 'lost spark' in order to
'prove' that my statement about swapping HT leads over was wrong. Then
more ignorant waffle about crankshaft sensors to pretend that you knew
what you were talking about.

If it degenerated then it was you that did it as I didn't post anymore
about it after the explanation.


Go back to readiong the Beano, It's almost within your intellectual
range...

Why don't you go back to chucking obscenities about like you normally do.
I am sure it makes people believe the cr@p you chuck about.

In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
Don't be silly. Not much use having a skip several streets away. The
same resident's parking zone here extends for about a mile.

Same here I assume and the skip doesn't have rights to be put anywhere.
The idea is to have it outside as close as possible to where you want it
but you can't designate a spot for it, and this is why people put out
cones and wheelie bins in the road but you don;t own the road so don;t
really have that right to 'own' that spot or any other on a public road.

The council have the right - as regards residential roads. And I'd guess
skip licenses etc are a nice little earner.

The council, after all, are the ones who put resident's parking in force
and made them pay for the privilege of parking where once you could for
free.

When I first moved here, it was a very busy street. With a hospital A&E
entrance just up the road. So you had to park where you could. A neighbour
across the road put dustbins outside my house to reserve a space - without
telling me. So I was very pleased to park there on returning from work. It
was a very odd family. ;-)

--
*Stable Relationships Are For Horses.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
dennis@home wrote:
On 20/02/2018 13:49, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:


Don't be silly. Not much use having a skip several streets away. The same
resident's parking zone here extends for about a mile.


I don't think a residents permit would cover a skip, they would charge
much more for a permit to put a skip in the street.

They do. Resident's parking permit - either for your own car or a visitor
- only entitles you to park in the zone. Which is large. If you need the
space outside your house for builders or removal etc and have to reserve
it, you pay for a special licence.

--
*Acupuncture is a jab well done*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In message , at 13:50:45 on Tue, 20 Feb
2018, "Dave Plowman (News)" remarked:

Thing is, pamela, I really can't see any large company assessing each and
every one of its employees individually each year or whatever for
remuneration. From cleaners to CEO. Even those who claim to give lip
service to the idea. The amount of work would be horrendous, and likely
upset more of the workforce than any benefits to some.

Except it does happen a lot, and is one of those things 'managers' are
employed for. For a routine desk job in industry it shouldn't take up
more than a few hours time, once a year, per employee.

In some professions, like teaching, it could be a rather more long drawn
out process.

Eh? How many teachers in the average school?

Compared to many thousands in a large company?

Projects like this scale per employee, not per organisation.
--
Roland Perry

In article ,
whisky-dave writes
On Monday, 19 February 2018 18:41:51 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
A tradesman's permit can allow the space outside the house being
worked on
to be reserves for him. Think skips, etc.

You don;t have a legal right to reserve any space even one outside yuor
home, my dad tried that years ago puttign out a wheelie bin so a
trademan could deliver some paving slabs, but you DO NOT have the right
to reserve a parking space for ANYONE else not even yourself.

That's why you need a special permit for tradesmen, etc. From the council.
Who do have the rights.

And that relates to a parking zone NOT a persons adresss.


Good to know your dad was as daft as yourself...

Yes a person is daft to think an individual owns the road outside their
house just because they pay council and road tax, they do not own the
road.



Thicko Stokie just been fined for putting an abusive message on an
ambulance which had parked outside her house whilst answering a 999
call. Done for breach of the peace.
--
bert

In article ,
whisky-dave writes
On Monday, 19 February 2018 16:20:29 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,


Opening jobs to the public allows the best person to step forward.

How do you decide who that best person is?

Interviews, tests, similar to most jobs the way it has all been done.


In overpaid jobs like tube driving, opening jobs to the public has the
additional benefit of allowing the public to get a slice of the
generous action.

Tell me something pamela. Would you give up a decent job to drive a tube
train just for the money?

I would think most people would, depending on what you mean by a decent job.

Indeed given that average wage in the UK is about £30k or less.

Have you ever worked shift work? Very early starts. Very late finishes.
374 days a year working?

Sounds like one of T i m's leap years.

I quite liked shift work. 14 days at work instead of 20 every 4 weeks.
--
bert

In article , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
pamela wrote:
Tell me something pamela. Would you give up a decent job to drive
a tube train just for the money?

Hundreds, if not thousands, of people want to apply but they are
prevented from applying.

Could I ask you where you got that figure from?

Do you also expect every single organisation in the UK to allow the public
to apply for any job in it?

Err that's normally the case.
--
bert

In article , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
pamela wrote:
On 14:12 19 Feb 2018, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
dennis@home wrote:
Perhaps working harder might do the trick.


They already do that, its called piece work.

Rather out of fashion these days. One of those things just loved by
Tories, who don't have a clue how production works.


If you mean entrepreneurs, they usually have a very good clue how
production works.

True. If you're Dyson, you move production to the far east.
If Sugar, you make your money by talking about it on TV.
Sugar made his money by being innovative with the desk top PC and
smashing the cartel of the large IT companies who were protecting their
mainframe terminal market by charging £4k for a PC.
Branson by ripping off the NHS.

And the customers of which rail franchise protested when it lost the
renewal bid? - oh yes Virgin West Coast.

Envy is a terrible disease Dave.
--
bert

In article , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
Fredxx wrote:
On 19/02/2018 00:25, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
Very productive having employees simmering over that rather than
getting on with the job.

Why don't the employees just get on with the job instead of simmering?

They'd be dreaming up ways of getting the foreman to put them on a
higher rate than their workmates.

What's wrong with that?

Better to be concentrating on the job in hand?

Perhaps working harder might do the trick.

See above.

But perhaps you worked on some form of production line where 'work' was
measured by the number of widgets you produced.
So piece work might be appropriate form of bonus
Others may have a job less
easy to define just how hard you work.

So piece work might not be an appropriate form of bonus.
--
bert

In article , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
pamela wrote:
Are you saying you were better at your job than any of your
thousands of colleagues doing the same job? And did they agree?

We could largely see for ourselves who in the department was doing a
good job and who wasn't. I could estimate how my performance
compared to my peers.

Ah. Right. So no need for anyone else to assess your performance. Just
tell the boss what you should be paid. And how much less your colleagues
should be paid too.

And how do you know you were better paid than any of them?

Some co-workers were probably earning more than me for doing a
similar job but that didn't bother me because I was happy with what
I got.

But not happy with what someone in a job you know nothing about gets paid?
Be it a tube driver or GP?

My pay had gone up in line with my efforts and if I wanted
to progress faster then I would work extra hard. If I didn't like
my pay and conditions then I moved elsewhere.

You only get a pay rise through working harder, over time. Which means you
start off shirking. Not sure I'd want to employ you.

I at one time worked for the BBC. There weren't thousands doing
the same job as me even there. So just what company did you work
for?

There were not several thousand in the UK doing the same job as me.
I was saying the companies each had several thousand UK employees
assessed the same way.

I simply don't believe you. The work required would be enormous. And that
costs come straight from profits.
You just show your lack of knowledge of businesses time and again.

Why do you find this so strange? Surely at the BBC you had an
annual appraisal and the assessment you were given would determine
your pay?

A simple pay scale based on age and experience, up to a limit. Something
like 5 years. A formula which applied to all. Think based on civil service
practice. If someone was doing badly, that increment could be withheld.

Absolutely nothing like your idea of assessing each individual's pay every
year.


--
bert

In article , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 10:55:29 on Tue, 20 Feb
2018, "Dave Plowman (News)" remarked:

Thing is, pamela, I really can't see any large company assessing each and
every one of its employees individually each year or whatever for
remuneration. From cleaners to CEO. Even those who claim to give lip
service to the idea. The amount of work would be horrendous, and likely
upset more of the workforce than any benefits to some.

Except it does happen a lot, and is one of those things 'managers' are
employed for. For a routine desk job in industry it shouldn't take up
more than a few hours time, once a year, per employee.

In some professions, like teaching, it could be a rather more long drawn
out process.

Eh? How many teachers in the average school?

Compared to many thousands in a large company?

"Many thousands are broken down into smaller units which are broken down
into smaller units (repeat).

--
bert

In article , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
pamela wrote:
The regulation of unions she introduced had very little effect

If that's true then all the union opposition against them was
unnecessary.

Because it means a lot of extra work for unpaid union branch officials.

Er they still got paid by their employer - for union activities but not
for union business, supposedly.
--
bert

bert wrote:

In article ,
whisky-dave writes
On Monday, 19 February 2018 18:41:51 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
A tradesman's permit can allow the space outside the house being
worked on
to be reserves for him. Think skips, etc.

You don;t have a legal right to reserve any space even one outside yuor
home, my dad tried that years ago puttign out a wheelie bin so a
trademan could deliver some paving slabs, but you DO NOT have the right
to reserve a parking space for ANYONE else not even yourself.

That's why you need a special permit for tradesmen, etc. From the council.
Who do have the rights.

And that relates to a parking zone NOT a persons adresss.


Good to know your dad was as daft as yourself...

Yes a person is daft to think an individual owns the road outside their
house just because they pay council and road tax, they do not own the
road.



Thicko Stokie just been fined for putting an abusive message on an
ambulance which had parked outside her house whilst answering a 999
call. Done for breach of the peace.

The note is moronic in the extreme (including 'van' to replace the
rather long word 'ambulance') but apparently gave the ambulance staff
the benetit of her opinion in (unprepossessing) person too, which is
probably explains the readiness of the police to prosecute.

--

Roger Hayter

In article ,
bert wrote:
In article , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
pamela wrote:
Tell me something pamela. Would you give up a decent job to drive
a tube train just for the money?

Hundreds, if not thousands, of people want to apply but they are
prevented from applying.

Could I ask you where you got that figure from?

Do you also expect every single organisation in the UK to allow the
public to apply for any job in it?

Err that's normally the case.

OK. I want to apply for the job as a matinee idol. Can't say I've ever
seen it advertised.

--
*Too many clicks spoil the browse *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
bert wrote:
I simply don't believe you. The work required would be enormous. And
that costs come straight from profits.
You just show your lack of knowledge of businesses time and again.

Turns out pamela didn't mean every single one employed by a large company.
Just those she described as professional. Which is a very different matter.

--
* I like you. You remind me of when I was young and stupid

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
bert wrote:
In article , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
pamela wrote:
The regulation of unions she introduced had very little effect

If that's true then all the union opposition against them was
unnecessary.

Because it means a lot of extra work for unpaid union branch officials.

Er they still got paid by their employer - for union activities but not
for union business, supposedly.

We can add local union official to the long long list of things you know
nothing about, then?

--
*If love is blind, why is lingerie so popular?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 20/02/2018 10:32, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Fredxx wrote:
It doesn't sound like you have been in a merit based pay scheme.

Merit based schemes have been proven not to work.

They benefit the hard working ones who are going places irrespective of
bonuses, and disincentivise those who struggle and reduce their
performance.

So overall an expensive useless exercise.

Much the same as piece work which was once the fashion.

Seasonal farm workers are often paid piece work and not seen any article
that calls piecework as an "expensive useless exercise". Can you provide
evidence or cite an article?

Basically the idea of theorists with no real experience of working those
conditions. And certainly no true figures to prove their theories work.

Many articles exist some quote findings from studies:

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...isky-behaviour

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpo...public-sector/

https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...F_Nov_2014.pdf

While there are pockets of positivity with PRP, the overall picture is
negative.

In message , at 22:57:25 on
Tue, 20 Feb 2018, Tim Streater remarked:

Thicko Stokie just been fined for putting an abusive message on an
ambulance which had parked outside her house whilst answering a 999
call. Done for breach of the peace.

The note is moronic in the extreme (including 'van' to replace the
rather long word 'ambulance') but apparently gave the ambulance staff
the benetit of her opinion in (unprepossessing) person too, which is
probably explains the readiness of the police to prosecute.

Seems it was partly due to her having breached a restraining order too.
Anyone know what that was about?

Some newspapers mentioned she had an existing restraining order wrt to
the neighbours (the lady of that house taken ill). In terms of practical
policing, it's that restraining order which will have beefed up their
response, even though the abuse wasn't against them directly.
--
Roland Perry

In article ,
Fredxx wrote:
Much the same as piece work which was once the fashion.

Seasonal farm workers are often paid piece work and not seen any article
that calls piecework as an "expensive useless exercise". Can you provide
evidence or cite an article?

Paying a fruit picker by the weight they gather may be one form of
piecework, but not quite the same as paying someone for the number of
widgets they assemble. Where care taken in assembly might be more
important than the numbers produced. No two people are the same, and the
speed they can do a task efficiently may vary day by day too. But trying
to treat humans as machines is good Tory practice...

Basically the idea of theorists with no real experience of working those
conditions. And certainly no true figures to prove their theories work.

Many articles exist some quote findings from studies:

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...isky-behaviour

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpo...public-sector/

https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...F_Nov_2014.pdf

While there are pockets of positivity with PRP, the overall picture is
negative.

Quite. I'd say it would cause resentment in the vast majority who by
nature are average. And resentment doesn't make for a good worker.

--
*I was married by a judge. I should have asked for a jury.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Tuesday, 20 February 2018 16:59:01 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
Don't be silly. Not much use having a skip several streets away. The
same resident's parking zone here extends for about a mile.

Same here I assume and the skip doesn't have rights to be put anywhere.
The idea is to have it outside as close as possible to where you want it
but you can't designate a spot for it, and this is why people put out
cones and wheelie bins in the road but you don;t own the road so don;t
really have that right to 'own' that spot or any other on a public road.

The council have the right - as regards residential roads. And I'd guess
skip licenses etc are a nice little earner.

I doubt it's a greater earner than parking fines.


The council, after all, are the ones who put resident's parking in force
and made them pay for the privilege of parking where once you could for
free.

So.


When I first moved here, it was a very busy street. With a hospital A&E
entrance just up the road. So you had to park where you could. A neighbour
across the road put dustbins outside my house to reserve a space - without
telling me. So I was very pleased to park there on returning from work. It
was a very odd family. ;-)

Sound s like a street of very odd people ;-)
See even though you pay yuor council tax road tax and other taxes I assume you dom that does NOT give you the right to park outside your own home.

On Tue, 20 Feb 2018 13:51:44 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
T i m wrote:
Basically the idea of theorists with no real experience of working those
conditions. And certainly no true figures to prove their theories work.

When working for BT on bench electronics repair I was taken aside by
the union rep and asked to slow down.

Care to say which year this was?

Erm, 5 years in the late 70's or so?

I understood it though ... different people worked at different speeds
and they had to agree a time for a batch of units that were actually
achievable by 'most people'. If you weren't able to hit their (union)
agreed targets mean you also got a talking to.

Cheers, T i m

In article ,
T i m wrote:
On Tue, 20 Feb 2018 13:51:44 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
T i m wrote:
Basically the idea of theorists with no real experience of working
those
conditions. And certainly no true figures to prove their theories
work.

When working for BT on bench electronics repair I was taken aside by
the union rep and asked to slow down.

Care to say which year this was?

Erm, 5 years in the late 70's or so?

I did wonder since BT is a very different company now. But thanks for
giving an example which does rather show that many base union experiences
on 40 plus years ago. ;-)

I understood it though ... different people worked at different speeds
and they had to agree a time for a batch of units that were actually
achievable by 'most people'. If you weren't able to hit their (union)
agreed targets mean you also got a talking to.

Not quite sure why you included (union) there as it's rather irrelevant.
Such targets could equally as well just have been agreed with the
workforce. But a union means the workers elect their spokesmen/negotiators
for such things. Making things rather easier for both the workforce and
management. In a well run company.

--
*Don't squat with your spurs on *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Wed, 21 Feb 2018 15:13:03 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

snip

When working for BT on bench electronics repair I was taken aside by
the union rep and asked to slow down.

Care to say which year this was?

Erm, 5 years in the late 70's or so?

I did wonder since BT is a very different company now.

Oh, I'm sure it is. Then it was a civil service style 'job for life'
and I'm sure liberties were taken all over the place (stories of
several BT vans parked up for a long breakfast or lunch etc).

However, where I was in 'PO Factories' it was very different in that
you were (generally) under supervision and had to do your bit. That
said, I bet there were a few who had been there for ever and where a
blind eye was turned, as long as they got the job done.

But thanks for
giving an example which does rather show that many base union experiences
on 40 plus years ago. ;-)

Whilst it was probably fairly typical in that is was 'unionised', the
union didn't seem to be anything like as 'involved', especially on a
day-to-day basis compared with other organisations.

I understood it though ... different people worked at different speeds
and they had to agree a time for a batch of units that were actually
achievable by 'most people'. If you weren't able to hit their (union)
agreed targets mean you also got a talking to.

Not quite sure why you included (union) there as it's rather irrelevant.

Because it was effectively the union that set the pace in that case?

Such targets could equally as well just have been agreed with the
workforce.

True, except in my case they weren't.

But a union means the workers elect their spokesmen/negotiators
for such things. Making things rather easier for both the workforce and
management. In a well run company.

Yup, as I mentioned, I felt the union was there for us but not
unnecessarily so.

Cheers, T i m

On 20/02/2018 20:54, bert wrote:

Thicko Stokie just been fined for putting an abusive message on an
ambulance which had parked outside her house whilst answering a 999
call. Done for breach of the peace.

Reading the DM again?
Its not actually true as the fine was for abusing people after the note
was ripped up and posted through her letter box.

In article ,
T i m wrote:
Not quite sure why you included (union) there as it's rather irrelevant.

Because it was effectively the union that set the pace in that case?

I'd be most surprised if the likes of Scargill got involved in such
things. ;-)

It will have been agreed at local level. Not 'set' by the union.

It is in a union's interests - ie the interests of its members - to have
high efficiency in any workplace. Provided those workers also benefit from
working at high productivity.

--
*I brake for no apparent reason.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Wed, 21 Feb 2018 23:58:49 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
T i m wrote:
Not quite sure why you included (union) there as it's rather irrelevant.

Because it was effectively the union that set the pace in that case?

I'd be most surprised if the likes of Scargill got involved in such
things. ;-)

Quite. ;-)

It will have been agreed at local level. Not 'set' by the union.

Well yes ... if 'da management' asked for X but the union would only
accept Y then that's what 'they' effectively set? I wasn't suggesting
that they pulled some number out of the air and said this is it, but
seen what was possible by 'most workers' and set it to that.

It is in a union's interests - ie the interests of its members - to have
high efficiency in any workplace.

Sure, within reason and dependant on the organisation.

Provided those workers also benefit from
working at high productivity.

Quite, and we didn't, other than the potential of losing our jobs (or
being moved to a different role) if we couldn't keep up.

Hence why the union would (indirectly maybe) 'set' the maximum pace to
protect it's 'less active' members.

Cheers, T i m

In article ,
T i m wrote:
On Wed, 21 Feb 2018 23:58:49 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
T i m wrote:
Not quite sure why you included (union) there as it's rather irrelevant.

Because it was effectively the union that set the pace in that case?

I'd be most surprised if the likes of Scargill got involved in such
things. ;-)

Quite. ;-)

It will have been agreed at local level. Not 'set' by the union.

Well yes ... if 'da management' asked for X but the union would only
accept Y then that's what 'they' effectively set? I wasn't suggesting
that they pulled some number out of the air and said this is it, but
seen what was possible by 'most workers' and set it to that.

Yes. Called negotiation. ;-)

It is in a union's interests - ie the interests of its members - to have
high efficiency in any workplace.

Sure, within reason and dependant on the organisation.

Surely efficiency is a catch all word?

Provided those workers also benefit from
working at high productivity.

Quite, and we didn't, other than the potential of losing our jobs (or
being moved to a different role) if we couldn't keep up.

Hence why the union would (indirectly maybe) 'set' the maximum pace to
protect it's 'less active' members.

I'd not expect any pace to be set so the very slowest person ever could do
it. Any more than setting it for some whizz kid mainlining coffee. You'd
select people for the job who were broadly similar.

Was this some form of production line with lots doing exactly the same
task?

--
*Wrinkled was not one of the things I wanted to be when I grew up

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Thu, 22 Feb 2018 00:46:23 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

snip

It is in a union's interests - ie the interests of its members - to have
high efficiency in any workplace.

Sure, within reason and dependant on the organisation.

Surely efficiency is a catch all word?

I'm not sure it was at that time. This wasn't an independent Co, it
was 'The Post Office' and therefore little in the way of direct
commercial competition for most of it's services. If it took 2 weeks
to fix a phone line, what are you gonna do?

Provided those workers also benefit from
working at high productivity.

Quite, and we didn't, other than the potential of losing our jobs (or
being moved to a different role) if we couldn't keep up.

Hence why the union would (indirectly maybe) 'set' the maximum pace to
protect it's 'less active' members.

I'd not expect any pace to be set so the very slowest person ever could do
it.

No, not the 'very slowest' or even the slowest.

Any more than setting it for some whizz kid mainlining coffee.

Quite.

You'd
select people for the job who were broadly similar.

Sure, and they were, however, different people have / had different
skills and therefore some jobs could favour say speed over detail etc.

Was this some form of production line with lots doing exactly the same
task?


Not really. It was called the 'Datel Shop' and we did batch repairs to
component level on a wide range of (generally) datacomms and
transmission kit. Everything from an autodialer, to a 300 Baud modem
(with separate PSU, filter, control unit, modulator and de-modulator
modules) to PCM / TDM cards etc.

So, you would be allocated a 'batch' of modules and the kit to test
them in and any specialised test kit (over and above your standard Avo
8, Scope, siggy gen and hand tools etc).

They would have to be repaired to 3 (I think), different standards.
Grade A had to be 'as new', Grade 2 was like seconds (fully functional
but not 'like new') and Grade 3 was for service exchange spares.

We would generally repair (or replace) all the metalwork (we had a
full metalwork shop on site), repair broken PCB's (Plessey were the
worst as they were paper, STC, GEC and Marconi kit was fibreglass)
open up filter cans (blowlamp) and replace caps and re-tune coils and
std discreet and IC type diagnosis and repair.

The last modules I was working on were TDM signaling cards.

When you joined as a trainee you typically went round all the 'shops',
spending a few months in each (along with going to the remote sites
that did other stuff like phones or holes / poles etc). So that would
be metalwork, woodwork, drawing office, polishing, stores, paint and
Datel (electronics). I only spent a week in each of the 'other' shops
and then went straight into Datel.

We first had to make our own specialized tools (for stroking relay
springs / contacts etc), then built an 'automatic' battery charger
(metal case, PCB, electronics and wiring etc) then had to make a loom
and re-wire a small PBX. Once you had completed those to their
satisfaction (there were two layers of test after you) you were
trained up on each item then given a small batch to complete in a
'target time' to the relevant standard.

If it was modem modules you might get 20 modules with a spattering of
the different types, most of which needed physical repair (metalwork,
PCB, paintwork) plus faultfinding, calibration and testing
(temperature / vibration etc).

Once you completed the batch they went off for testing and once tested
you got the next batch of things to do (they were often something
'different' just to spread the work around).

There were about 20 of us on the floor with a couple in the office.

If you got there early enough you could park on-site and there was a
pretty good 'restaurant for breakfast, lunch and afternoon tea break.

Cheers, T i m