Hey,
I'm working on a design for a Battlebot for their 2005 competition in
Orlando Florida. I am working on a design that I feel will fair
extremely well against any others. Currently, I am looking at a
material to use for the weapon. My design calls for a flat bar, about
36-40" long x 3" wide x .5" thick.

What would be the best material to use? Keep in mind that this will be
a spinner, spinning at 3000rpm, putting a fair amount of kinetic energy
into the other bot.

Hardened S7 Toolsteel fare well against bending or breaking?

Could the peice be bent at a 45 degree angle a few inches from the
ends? Without them breaking off, or bending the whole thing.

Does anyone know of any shops that will sponsor a weapon of those
dimensions, with a huge strength and hardness?

Oh, and this bot isn't a pipe dream. ;-) We've got over $7000 invested
into it. But we still need more money! If anyone wants to donate,
Paypal
Please let me know!
AJ Quick
http://www.HHSRobotics.com/

Check out your local tractor supply store (TSC or whatever is in your
area). They will have replacement blades for bush-hogs used on tractor
equipment. Many of the larger HP designs are pinned about half way out.
The center section or even the end sections may be just what you want.
These are tough and have holes already machined in them.

I think when George is referring to being "pinned" I think that he means
that the blade has a pivot between the center and the end, a three piece
blade. In a mower, that reduces the likelyhood of doing damage to the
mower if the blade hits something solid. That sounds advantageous in
terms of not wreaking havoc on your own bot when it hits something. If
you do not do that, you had better have a clutch or some other way to
allow slip between the motor and the blade.

Good luck and have fun!
Richard


george wrote:
Check out your local tractor supply store (TSC or whatever is in your
area). They will have replacement blades for bush-hogs used on tractor
equipment. Many of the larger HP designs are pinned about half way out.
The center section or even the end sections may be just what you want.
These are tough and have holes already machined in them.

AJ

Have you actually tested that spinning yard long 1/2 inch thick 3 inch
wide balde?? What happens to your robot when it encounters another,
equally heavy, robot ot obstruction?? ?Got any videos to post?

Jerry



"AJ Quick" wrote in message
ups.com...
Hey,
I'm working on a design for a Battlebot for their 2005 competition in
Orlando Florida. I am working on a design that I feel will fair
extremely well against any others. Currently, I am looking at a
material to use for the weapon. My design calls for a flat bar, about
36-40" long x 3" wide x .5" thick.

What would be the best material to use? Keep in mind that this will be
a spinner, spinning at 3000rpm, putting a fair amount of kinetic energy
into the other bot.

Hardened S7 Toolsteel fare well against bending or breaking?

Could the peice be bent at a 45 degree angle a few inches from the
ends? Without them breaking off, or bending the whole thing.

Does anyone know of any shops that will sponsor a weapon of those
dimensions, with a huge strength and hardness?

Oh, and this bot isn't a pipe dream. ;-) We've got over $7000 invested
into it. But we still need more money! If anyone wants to donate,
Paypal
Please let me know!
AJ Quick
http://www.HHSRobotics.com/

--Bigger and faster spinners already exist, heh. As for lawyers
we've had our fill! Why d'you suppose Battlebots went off the air?
Lawyers, that's why.. Yecchh!

--
"Steamboat Ed" Haas : Somehow related
Hacking the Trailing Edge! : to Lumpy Adams...
http://www.nmpproducts.com/intro.htm
---Decks a-wash in a sea of words---

In article . com, AJ
Quick wrote:

Hey,
I'm working on a design for a Battlebot for their 2005 competition in
Orlando Florida. I am working on a design that I feel will fair
extremely well against any others. Currently, I am looking at a
material to use for the weapon. My design calls for a flat bar, about
36-40" long x 3" wide x .5" thick.

What would be the best material to use? Keep in mind that this will be
a spinner, spinning at 3000rpm, putting a fair amount of kinetic energy
into the other bot.

Hardened S7 Toolsteel fare well against bending or breaking?

Could the peice be bent at a 45 degree angle a few inches from the
ends? Without them breaking off, or bending the whole thing.

Does anyone know of any shops that will sponsor a weapon of those
dimensions, with a huge strength and hardness?

Oh, and this bot isn't a pipe dream. ;-) We've got over $7000 invested
into it. But we still need more money! If anyone wants to donate,
Paypal
Please let me know!
AJ Quick
http://www.HHSRobotics.com/


AL64V Titanium with S-7 toolsteel heads

On 19 Dec 2004 18:25:28 -0800, "AJ Quick" vaguely
proposed a theory
.......and in reply I say!:

remove ns from my header address to reply via email

I will "digest" what has been said here, and add one idea.

The one idea: quench and tempered steel. You will need to get this cut
from sheet, probably. Best with laser. This stuff makes spring steel
look like cookie dough! G. Its yield strength is enormous. The 350
Bn hard stuff has a "0.2% proof stress" (which I have been told is
equivalent to Yield) of around 1100-1200 MPa. 500 is even higher.

Definition Proof Stress: The stress that will cause a specified
small, permanent extension of a tensile test piece. Commonly the
stress to produce 0.2% extension is quoted in N/mm2 for steel. This
value approximates to the yield stress in materials not exhibiting a
definite yield point.

They are just machinable, and are weldable, with lots of care. they
can be bent. They must not be heated beyond very set levels, because
they are already fully treated.

Then George mentioned pivoting. The force on _your_ bot (pun intended)
will be enormous if another bot stops that bar, even if you slice into
it a few inches. The drive shaft and gearing will need to be some
serious stuff, or you need a good clutch. Try a rotating pan, with
pivoting blades a la slashers and rotary mowers. The boits I have seen
with rotary cutters had multiple teeth to have a similar effect.

Ernie mentioned hardened tips on strong bar. I again suggest the
350-500 hardness grades of QnT alloys. Tips should then be chosen for
hardness and extreme impact. From my (limited and often theoretical)
experience, this places the stuff you need into about the 600 650 Bn
range at max, or it starts to shatter too easily above
that.........ah! I see on
http://www.matchrockets.com/teamstupid/materials.html

that they recommend S7 treated to 55 Rc. Roughly the same. Perhaps I
was a little high, and getting toward brittle.

Hey,
I'm working on a design for a Battlebot for their 2005 competition in
Orlando Florida. I am working on a design that I feel will fair
extremely well against any others. Currently, I am looking at a
material to use for the weapon. My design calls for a flat bar, about
36-40" long x 3" wide x .5" thick.

What would be the best material to use? Keep in mind that this will be
a spinner, spinning at 3000rpm, putting a fair amount of kinetic energy
into the other bot.

Hardened S7 Toolsteel fare well against bending or breaking?

Could the peice be bent at a 45 degree angle a few inches from the
ends? Without them breaking off, or bending the whole thing.

Does anyone know of any shops that will sponsor a weapon of those
dimensions, with a huge strength and hardness?

Oh, and this bot isn't a pipe dream. ;-) We've got over $7000 invested
into it. But we still need more money! If anyone wants to donate,
Paypal
Please let me know!
AJ Quick
http://www.HHSRobotics.com/

"
A leaf spring from a car or truck will probably suffice. Hope you have
a good lawyer on retainer when the **** hits the fan.
"

No it probably wouldn't. The **** would not hit a fan, it would hit a
1" thick wall made of lexan.

"
Have you actually tested that spinning yard long 1/2 inch thick 3 inch
wide balde?? What happens to your robot when it encounters another,
equally heavy, robot ot obstruction?? ?Got any videos to post?
"

Sorry Jerry, no video.. as my first post was trying to get a material
to make the blade out of.

"
Bigger and faster spinners already exist, heh. As for lawyers we've had
our fill! Why d'you suppose Battlebots went off the air? Lawyers,
that's why.. Yecchh!
"

I doubt it though, in our weight class and level of competition.. yeah
it went away because of some bad lawsuits. None related to injuries,
but to who had the rights to the show.

"
AL64V Titanium with S-7 toolsteel heads
"

I'll look into that. I highly doubt we have the funds, as we've already
thrown about $7k into it currently.

Thank you for the link and info "Old Nick".

I'm still kinda looking for a good answer to my original question,
however. To all those concerned with kinetic energy and safety.. don't
worry about it. The spinner has a way to slip.. also, it is powered by
2 5hp electric motors.. with lots of batteries. Its not going to fly
off and kill someone.. if I use a leaf spring from a car.. yeah then it
probably will.

On 20 Dec 2004 22:00:53 -0800, "AJ Quick" vaguely
proposed a theory
.......and in reply I say!:

remove ns from my header address to reply via email

I'm still kinda looking for a good answer to my original question,
however.

Which question was that then?..the one about sponsorship, I guess.

You appear to have rejected all the attempts to answer the bit about
what steel to use. You want a steel that resists bending, yet can be
bent at 45deg. Sionce all of the attempts at replies have failed you,
you must know better. So use hardened S7 and see what happens.

Um.. excuse me?

The majority of the replies were about a way to make the spinner slip,
asking for videos, or suggesting something that would not even be
capable.

The 45 degree angle was a question.. would something say tool steel be
able to be bent downward then hardened.. then withstand a side impact
without bending to the side on that downward 45 angle?

If you can find me a supplier to get this "AL64V" or rather "6AL-4V" as
it is known. Or the "quench and tempered steel" as you mentioned than
let me know.


The spinner spins at about 250 miles per hour, and would exert about 13
Kilo Joules of energy.

AJ

I guess I have to apologize about asking for videos. I had assumed that
you'd have tried something since you have spent $7,000.00 on this project
already. I just didnt think you could have gotten this far without having
tried something.
You must know that an automotive spring can be heated and bent. The
question about the durabilty of that spring could be answered pretty easily
with some real life tests. I was curious about what you'd broken so far.
Now that you've aparently become dissatisfied with the replies you get, I
begin to wonder how real this project is. For instance, where does the 250
MPH come from?? I'd have thought a 3 ft long blade rotating at 3,000 RPM
would have a tip speed of about 320 MPH. Maybe I'm wrong.

How about sending us a picture of what you have so far. Assuming this is
a real project, I'd bet you can get some excellant information from guys on
this news group. Your description so far of what you want has been less
than well defined.

Jerry


"AJ Quick" wrote in message
oups.com...
Um.. excuse me?

The majority of the replies were about a way to make the spinner slip,
asking for videos, or suggesting something that would not even be
capable.

The 45 degree angle was a question.. would something say tool steel be
able to be bent downward then hardened.. then withstand a side impact
without bending to the side on that downward 45 angle?

If you can find me a supplier to get this "AL64V" or rather "6AL-4V" as
it is known. Or the "quench and tempered steel" as you mentioned than
let me know.


The spinner spins at about 250 miles per hour, and would exert about 13
Kilo Joules of energy.

"george" wrote in message
ups.com...
Check out your local tractor supply store (TSC or whatever is in your
area). They will have replacement blades for bush-hogs used on tractor
equipment. Many of the larger HP designs are pinned about half way out.
The center section or even the end sections may be just what you want.
These are tough and have holes already machined in them.

36 inch mower blades are readily available, of course. And the OP could
"double up" to get the thickness required. Battlebot people probably have
safety specs for this. Also, I think there are legal limits for RPM for each
blade length, at least for OEMs. I think a 22 inch blade has a 3100 RPM
limit. 26 inch blade is 2600 RPM

The 250mph came from the estimate of 2500 rpm with unmodified motors. I
plan on adjusting the timing of the motors, and then overvolting them
to 36 volts. Thats how I estimate 3000rpm.. so its going atleast 250mph
(for 2500), or more if I make the changes. The gearbox uses 2:1
reduction, so the motors are spinning at 5000 normally, and should add
another 1000 with modifications. You are very right, 3000 rpm is
321mph.. would you like your gold star?

I don't know why I have to prove anything to you guys. This is a metal
working group, I expected answers regarding the metals to use. You
would be surpised at how much this stuff costs. I can show you a whole
list of parts we have to add up to $7k.. we have $2500 in motors (5hp
electric motors aren't cheap, neither are 1hp, 1 pound motors), the 8
batteries we have won't be enough, and they ran $1100. Oh, and the
$1500 control system, + all the controller for each motor ($150-$200)
each and we have six... thats just a bit of it.

I posted our website, hhsrobotics.com, if you want to go there and see
our 5+ years of Robotics history.

I'm sorry if I am not up for using a car leaf spring as a weapon. I am
looking for raw metals that can be obtained easily, and worked with
easily. The robot design is fully CAD drawn, and will be made with a
high level of precision.. We take more of a NASA approach to this kind
of stuff.. not redneck backyard fun. Yeehaw.

AJ Quick wrote:
The 250mph came from the estimate of 2500 rpm with unmodified motors. I
plan on adjusting the timing of the motors, and then overvolting them
to 36 volts. Thats how I estimate 3000rpm.. so its going atleast 250mph
(for 2500), or more if I make the changes. The gearbox uses 2:1
reduction, so the motors are spinning at 5000 normally, and should add
another 1000 with modifications. You are very right, 3000 rpm is
321mph.. would you like your gold star?

I don't know why I have to prove anything to you guys. This is a metal
working group, I expected answers regarding the metals to use.

But you see, this is a discussion group, not
an engineering consulting service. "Smash and
grab" posting doesn't always work. There are
some very knowledgeable people here that will
give you valuable information if you ask the
right questions.

You
would be surpised at how much this stuff costs. I can show you a whole
list of parts we have to add up to $7k.. we have $2500 in motors (5hp
electric motors aren't cheap, neither are 1hp, 1 pound motors), the 8
batteries we have won't be enough, and they ran $1100. Oh, and the
$1500 control system, + all the controller for each motor ($150-$200)
each and we have six... thats just a bit of it.

I posted our website, hhsrobotics.com, if you want to go there and see
our 5+ years of Robotics history.

I'm sorry if I am not up for using a car leaf spring as a weapon. I am
looking for raw metals that can be obtained easily, and worked with
easily. The robot design is fully CAD drawn, and will be made with a
high level of precision.. We take more of a NASA approach to this kind
of stuff.. not redneck backyard fun. Yeehaw.

Just one quick comment on that. The higher the
precision, the quicker it will jam. The military
learned that 50 years ago with weapons.

On 23 Dec 2004 10:16:59 -0800, "AJ Quick" wrote:

I'm sorry if I am not up for using a car leaf spring as a weapon. I am
looking for raw metals that can be obtained easily, and worked with
easily. The robot design is fully CAD drawn, and will be made with a
high level of precision.. We take more of a NASA approach to this kind
of stuff.. not redneck backyard fun. Yeehaw.

Nasa approach...does that mean yur bot will explode as the start
signal is given or someone will screw up a measurement and your bot
will miss the arena and wind up heading out of the solar system on a
course to eternity?

Id suspect a good redneck backyard bot (made from a riding lawn mower)
would use a homebrew thermal lance made from a rusty piece of pipe
found in the back 40, and Grandmas O2 bottle and turn your bot into
$10,000 worth of smoldering scrap in right short order. Or simply
bludgen it to pieces with the differential from a 62 chevy pickemup
truck.

Yeehaw indeed.

Gunner

"Gunner, you are the same ridiculous liberal f--k you ever where."
Scipio

Gunner wrote:
On 23 Dec 2004 10:16:59 -0800, "AJ Quick" wrote:


I'm sorry if I am not up for using a car leaf spring as a weapon. I am
looking for raw metals that can be obtained easily, and worked with
easily. The robot design is fully CAD drawn, and will be made with a
high level of precision.. We take more of a NASA approach to this kind
of stuff.. not redneck backyard fun. Yeehaw.


Nasa approach...does that mean yur bot will explode as the start
signal is given or someone will screw up a measurement and your bot
will miss the arena and wind up heading out of the solar system on a
course to eternity?

Id suspect a good redneck backyard bot (made from a riding lawn mower)
would use a homebrew thermal lance made from a rusty piece of pipe
found in the back 40, and Grandmas O2 bottle and turn your bot into
$10,000 worth of smoldering scrap in right short order. Or simply
bludgen it to pieces with the differential from a 62 chevy pickemup
truck.

Yeehaw indeed.

Sorta the robot equivalent to the "My son can kick
your honor student son's ass" bumpersticker.

In article . com,
"AJ Quick" wrote:

[...]

I'm sorry if I am not up for using a car leaf spring as a weapon. I am
looking for raw metals that can be obtained easily, and worked with
easily. The robot design is fully CAD drawn, and will be made with a
high level of precision.. We take more of a NASA approach to this kind
of stuff.. not redneck backyard fun. Yeehaw.

Seems to me redneck stuff (when put together by intelligent rednecks)
outlasts precision anything when abused.
But, that said, http://tinyurl.com/4qdvn Thomas Registry if you don't
already know it. Has a lot of links to places where you can get
professional consultation, talk to engineers, and stay away from us
rednecks.
You might be able to find a source for the 6AL-4V material mentioned
earlier at http://tinyurl.com/68w8b
Yeehaw!

--
B.B. --I am not a goat! thegoat4 at airmail dot net
http://web2.airmail.net/thegoat4/

AJ

I first read your post with alot of interest when I thought you were
spinning a big piece of steel and wanted to make an improvement. I was
interested in seeing the preliminary results.
Then you seemed less than gratefull to the RCM for the replies to your
post.
Frankly I was surprized to leard that you'd spent $7,000.00 on a project
that hadnt been tested with at least one "bl;ade".
I suppose I was a bit too critical about your error in having posted 3,000
RPM and 250 MPH. But you could easily have accepted that remark of mine
without asking if I wanted a gold star. I consider that an attempt to
disrespect me. Correct me if I misunderstood.

You sure dont have to prove anything to me and probably not to "this
group". But, when you post to this group that you have a robot project
that we are invited to contribute money to, there might be some indication
that you are actually building something.
The way In read it, the general nature of your thread has been that of a
salesman.

I wonder what your objective was to write that you take a NASA approach then
reject that that car leaf spring suggestion. I dont see how a leaf spring
violated your specification.

Jerry







"AJ Quick" wrote in message
ups.com...
The 250mph came from the estimate of 2500 rpm with unmodified motors. I
plan on adjusting the timing of the motors, and then overvolting them
to 36 volts. Thats how I estimate 3000rpm.. so its going atleast 250mph
(for 2500), or more if I make the changes. The gearbox uses 2:1
reduction, so the motors are spinning at 5000 normally, and should add
another 1000 with modifications. You are very right, 3000 rpm is
321mph.. would you like your gold star?

I don't know why I have to prove anything to you guys. This is a metal
working group, I expected answers regarding the metals to use. You
would be surpised at how much this stuff costs. I can show you a whole
list of parts we have to add up to $7k.. we have $2500 in motors (5hp
electric motors aren't cheap, neither are 1hp, 1 pound motors), the 8
batteries we have won't be enough, and they ran $1100. Oh, and the
$1500 control system, + all the controller for each motor ($150-$200)
each and we have six... thats just a bit of it.

I posted our website, hhsrobotics.com, if you want to go there and see
our 5+ years of Robotics history.

I'm sorry if I am not up for using a car leaf spring as a weapon. I am
looking for raw metals that can be obtained easily, and worked with
easily. The robot design is fully CAD drawn, and will be made with a
high level of precision.. We take more of a NASA approach to this kind
of stuff.. not redneck backyard fun. Yeehaw.

"B.B." u wrote in message
news
In article . com,
"AJ Quick" wrote:

[...]

I'm sorry if I am not up for using a car leaf spring as a weapon. I am
looking for raw metals that can be obtained easily, and worked with
easily. The robot design is fully CAD drawn, and will be made with a
high level of precision.. We take more of a NASA approach to this kind
of stuff.. not redneck backyard fun. Yeehaw.

Seems to me redneck stuff (when put together by intelligent rednecks)
outlasts precision anything when abused.
But, that said, http://tinyurl.com/4qdvn Thomas Registry if you don't
already know it. Has a lot of links to places where you can get
professional consultation, talk to engineers, and stay away from us
rednecks.
You might be able to find a source for the 6AL-4V material mentioned
earlier at http://tinyurl.com/68w8b
Yeehaw!

--
B.B. --I am not a goat! thegoat4 at airmail dot net
http://web2.airmail.net/thegoat4/


BB

Was Smokey Yunick a red neck? In my ignorance, I'd have choosen Smokey's
design in preferance to NASA's. Arent there some red necks that think
really well and sometimes avoid unnecessary sophistation in orded to get the
job done?

Jerry

Thanks for the help BB.

Seems some others are blind.

"Id suspect a good redneck backyard bot (made from a riding lawn mower)
would use a homebrew thermal lance made from a rusty piece of pipe
found in the back 40, and Grandmas O2 bottle and turn your bot into
$10,000 worth of smoldering scrap in right short order. Or simply
bludgen it to pieces with the differential from a 62 chevy pickemup
truck."

It would never pass safety inspection.

"Nasa approach...does that mean yur bot will explode as the start
signal is given or someone will screw up a measurement and your bot
will miss the arena and wind up heading out of the solar system on a
course to eternity?"

Yeah.. Good ole' NASA. But I'm not thinking of that NASA.. I'm thinking
of the ones that make that wonderful memory foam materess. I figured
someone would have something to say about NASAs errors in the past..

"Just one quick comment on that. The higher the precision, the quicker
it will jam. The military learned that 50 years ago with weapons."

I think that has to do more with the tolerances. I know there were
quite a bit of guns and weapons that weren't made with the same
precision each time, so none of the parts were ever interchangable..
and the guns jammed and blew up in their hands.. so I don't know if
that really holds true.. I know, for example, when they put the turret
of a tank on its platform, it has to be so percisely aligned that even
a thousandth of an inch will not work out right. Same with all the
calibration and alignment to fire.. but once you get down to it.. pull
trigger and shoot.

I was under the impression that this group dealt with high percision
and CNC type metal working. I guess I will have to try
rec.crafts.watchmaking instead.

"Frankly I was surprized to leard that you'd spent $7,000.00 on a
project that hadnt been tested with at least one "bl;ade"."

We have $7000 in parts.. motors, gearboxes, batteries, controllers. No
materials yet to actually make the chassis or weapon. Hence my presence
here.

Battle Bots going off the air didn't have anything to do w/ "Tech Tv"
channel being bought out?
I haven't watched much of what was Tech Tv since. It's mostly computer
games now. I wasn't aware Battle bots are off the air. I lost interest
ddue to the MC & Hosts incomprensable British accents. Not because of
the botts themselfs.
Happy Holidays, John

In article P7Gyd.4868$tG3.4107@trnddc02,
"Jerry Martes" wrote:

Seems to me redneck stuff (when put together by intelligent rednecks)
outlasts precision anything when abused.

BB

Was Smokey Yunick a red neck? In my ignorance, I'd have choosen Smokey's
design in preferance to NASA's. Arent there some red necks that think
really well and sometimes avoid unnecessary sophistation in orded to get the
job done?

Jerry

You mean this dude? http://www.smokeyyunick.com/
Holy crap! Never heard of him before, but sounds cool.
I vastly enjoy rednecking stuff. I still have all my fingers, so
none the worse for wear. Yet. (:

--
B.B. --I am not a goat! thegoat4 at airmail dot net
http://web2.airmail.net/thegoat4/

On 23 Dec 2004 13:40:49 -0800, AJ Quick wrote:

(Someone else wrote, but AJ deleted attributions for,)

"Just one quick comment on that. The higher the precision, the quicker
it will jam. The military learned that 50 years ago with weapons."

I think that has to do more with the tolerances. I know there were
quite a bit of guns and weapons that weren't made with the same
precision each time, so none of the parts were ever interchangable..
and the guns jammed and blew up in their hands.. so I don't know if
that really holds true..

Um, no. Google for "Luger". It's a beautifully made German pistol,
very tight tolerances, stunningly good machining, excellent fit and
finish and quality. Also worthless with a speck of sand or dirt in
the works. Compare this to an AK-47, which can be dunked in mud-water
be brought up, and function just fine. Tight tolerance, fit and finish,
don't help in some situations and in fact make matters worse, which
was I think the point of whoever's post you're answering.

I was under the impression that this group dealt with high percision
and CNC type metal working. I guess I will have to try
rec.crafts.watchmaking instead.

Perhaps while you're looking different places you could read this article:
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
It might help you understand why your messages are being responded to in
the way they are.

We have $7000 in parts.. motors, gearboxes, batteries, controllers. No
materials yet to actually make the chassis or weapon. Hence my presence
here.

Yeah, you definately would benefit from reading and learning from that
article. Seriously, it will improve what you get out of a group like this.

Dave "Horse to water...let's see what happens next..." Hinz

On 23 Dec 2004 13:51:34 -0800, vaguely
proposed a theory
.......and in reply I say!:

remove ns from my header address to reply via email

Speaking as an Aussie who has seen an Oz film (or show ) with
subtitles for the US, .....I have nothing to say, actually.

I lost interest
ddue to the MC & Hosts incomprensable British accents.

AJ Quick wrote:


"Just one quick comment on that. The higher the precision, the quicker
it will jam. The military learned that 50 years ago with weapons."

I think that has to do more with the tolerances. I know there were
quite a bit of guns and weapons that weren't made with the same
precision each time, so none of the parts were ever interchangable..
and the guns jammed and blew up in their hands.. so I don't know if
that really holds true.. I know, for example, when they put the turret
of a tank on its platform, it has to be so percisely aligned that even
a thousandth of an inch will not work out right. Same with all the
calibration and alignment to fire.. but once you get down to it.. pull
trigger and shoot.

Without getting into a long ****ing contest about
precision, accuracy, tolerances and resolution,
(which I am quite happy to do if you're up for it),
the point that I was trying to make is that if you
are going to abuse something, you do not need or
even want precise fits. A gear train fitted up
perfectly will be much more likely to bind under
abuse than one that has some slop in it.

Precisely fitted firearms are joy to use, but
often fail under battlefield conditions. Some
of the most successful (and deadly) firearms
were and are made with stamped sheetmetal and
very loose fits. And what you are building is,
ultimately, a weapon that will be abused.

I've worked on missiles and I've worked on ag
equipment. If I were to build a battlebot, I'd
definitely choose the ag approach. If a farmer
can't screw it up, it will probably work for a
while in the battlebot box.

Now I suppose that if I had invested $7000 in
a project and some smartass on rec.metalworking
told me that I should not sweat the finish
and loosen up the fits, and build it more like
a tractor than a Porsche transmission, I'd probably
not want to hear about it. And that's ok with me.

After all, it's not my money, just my opinion.


I was under the impression that this group dealt with high percision
and CNC type metal working. I guess I will have to try
rec.crafts.watchmaking instead.

This group deals with a) liberal vs conservative
politics, b) good, general shop advise.

After once making a foolish reply to a political
post, I prefer to limit myself to b, but to each
his own.

As to the shop advice, yes, there are people that
can answer your question. I believe your question
was concerning steel alloys and not precision
CNC. Concerning the former, I doubt that you could
buy better advice anywhere than Ed Huntress could
give you.

"Frankly I was surprized to leard that you'd spent $7,000.00 on a
project that hadnt been tested with at least one "bl;ade"."

We have $7000 in parts.. motors, gearboxes, batteries, controllers. No
materials yet to actually make the chassis or weapon. Hence my presence
here.

Spending $7000 on parts doesn't prove anything.
Many of us can and do drop that much at work
on a project...

On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 10:30:53 -0800, Jim Stewart
vaguely proposed a theory
.......and in reply I say!:

remove ns from my header address to reply via email

But you see, this is a discussion group, not
an engineering consulting service. "Smash and
grab" posting doesn't always work. There are
some very knowledgeable people here that will
give you valuable information if you ask the
right questions.

They damn well _did_. It was thanked and apparently ignored.

I would have thought that building a battlebot was all about testing,
and trial and error. They certainly had some amazing mistakes and
time-wastes.

On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 20:38:00 GMT, "Jerry Martes"
vaguely proposed a theory
.......and in reply I say!:

remove ns from my header address to reply via email

Hear here, Jerry! Well summarized.

I have asked questions here and then questioned the replies, to the
point of being censured...by some of the more prickly members G. But
I have never simply rejected, rubbished, or ignored them.

I first read your post with alot of interest when I thought you were
Then you seemed less than gratefull to the RCM for the replies to your
post.
...........
But you could easily have accepted that remark of mine
without asking if I wanted a gold star. I consider that an attempt to
disrespect me. Correct me if I misunderstood.
..........

You sure dont have to prove anything to me and probably not to "this
group". But, when you post to this group that you have a robot project
............
The way In read it, the general nature of your thread has been that of a
salesman.
.........

I wonder what your objective was to write that you take a NASA approach then
reject that that car leaf spring suggestion. I dont see how a leaf spring
violated your specification.

Now here I disagree. NASA would never accept the car leaf
spring......to easy and cheap! G

On 19 Dec 2004 18:25:28 -0800, "AJ Quick" vaguely
proposed a theory
.......and in reply I say!:

remove ns from my header address to reply via email

Aiiii amd a Dalek. I will now ignore you.

Ignorrre! Ignorrre! Ignorrre!

Hey,
I'm working on a design for a Battlebot for their 2005 competition in
Orlando Florida. I am working on a design that I feel will fair
extremely well against any others. Currently, I am looking at a
material to use for the weapon. My design calls for a flat bar, about
36-40" long x 3" wide x .5" thick.

What would be the best material to use? Keep in mind that this will be
a spinner, spinning at 3000rpm, putting a fair amount of kinetic energy
into the other bot.

Hardened S7 Toolsteel fare well against bending or breaking?

Could the peice be bent at a 45 degree angle a few inches from the
ends? Without them breaking off, or bending the whole thing.

Does anyone know of any shops that will sponsor a weapon of those
dimensions, with a huge strength and hardness?

Oh, and this bot isn't a pipe dream. ;-) We've got over $7000 invested
into it. But we still need more money! If anyone wants to donate,
Paypal
Please let me know!
AJ Quick
http://www.HHSRobotics.com/

In article .com,
"AJ Quick" wrote:

Thanks for the help BB.

Seems some others are blind.

Nah--that's just how this group operates. Seems the best way to
utilize this place is to lay out your project, entertain the ensuing
brainstorming, pick the ideas you like best, and reply to those. Seems
to move along most quickly that way.
Besides, the audience in here is mostly homebrew (this is a rec.*
group, after all) so the first instinct is to scrounge. Then buy, if
that doesn't work. So, most experience available in here has a lot of
recycled car and truck parts in it.
Be nice, relax, adapt.
Personally, I'd look into the leaf spring suggestion--they make quite
good hammers and hold a shape well under abuse. At least find out what
kind of metal if you're a stickler for "from the mill" material.

--
B.B. --I am not a goat! thegoat4 at airmail dot net
http://web2.airmail.net/thegoat4/

In article ,
Old Nick wrote:

Now here I disagree. NASA would never accept the car leaf
spring......to easy and cheap! G

You forgot reliable. (:

--
B.B. --I am not a goat! thegoat4 at airmail dot net
http://web2.airmail.net/thegoat4/

On 23 Dec 2004 10:16:59 -0800, "AJ Quick" wrote:

snip

I posted our website, hhsrobotics.com, if you want to go there and see
our 5+ years of Robotics history.

I'm sorry if I am not up for using a car leaf spring as a weapon. I am
looking for raw metals that can be obtained easily, and worked with
easily. The robot design is fully CAD drawn, and will be made with a
high level of precision.. We take more of a NASA approach to this kind
of stuff.. not redneck backyard fun. Yeehaw.

OK, the web site was instructive. It's a bunch of high school geeks,
obviously not doing this on their own dime. Explains a lot about the
attitude and apparent lack of experience.

AJ, The robot stuff will teach you a lot, but judging from your
replies, you need to work on those interpersonal skills. The folks on
here could teach you a lot, too, if you pay attention. Tim Williams
is also a cocky young fellow, but he's done a lot I admire with (I
suspect) nowhere near the infusion of cash.

If you need more money for your robot, team shirts, travel and party
expenses, etc., ask your parents. I fund my teenager's experiments in
blacksmithing, etc. for the hands-on learning experience for him.
Beats all nighters on on-line rpg's.

Pete Keillor

In article ,
Peter T. Keillor III wrote:

[...]

OK, the web site was instructive. It's a bunch of high school geeks,
obviously not doing this on their own dime. Explains a lot about the
attitude and apparent lack of experience.

AJ, The robot stuff will teach you a lot, but judging from your
replies, you need to work on those interpersonal skills. The folks on
here could teach you a lot, too, if you pay attention. Tim Williams
is also a cocky young fellow, but he's done a lot I admire with (I
suspect) nowhere near the infusion of cash.

If you need more money for your robot, team shirts, travel and party
expenses, etc., ask your parents. I fund my teenager's experiments in
blacksmithing, etc. for the hands-on learning experience for him.
Beats all nighters on on-line rpg's.

Pete Keillor

http://www.ajquick.com/gallery/me/index.php

--
B.B. --I am not a goat! thegoat4 at airmail dot net
http://web2.airmail.net/thegoat4/

On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 18:48:40 GMT, Gunner
wrote:

Nasa approach...does that mean yur bot will explode as the start
signal is given or someone will screw up a measurement and your bot
will miss the arena and wind up heading out of the solar system on a
course to eternity?

Id suspect a good redneck backyard bot (made from a riding lawn mower)
would use a homebrew thermal lance made from a rusty piece of pipe
found in the back 40, and Grandmas O2 bottle and turn your bot into
$10,000 worth of smoldering scrap in right short order. Or simply
bludgen it to pieces with the differential from a 62 chevy pickemup
truck.

Yeehaw indeed.

Gunner

LMFAO!

Gunner wrote:

On 23 Dec 2004 10:16:59 -0800, "AJ Quick" wrote:


I'm sorry if I am not up for using a car leaf spring as a weapon. I am
looking for raw metals that can be obtained easily, and worked with
easily. The robot design is fully CAD drawn, and will be made with a
high level of precision.. We take more of a NASA approach to this kind
of stuff.. not redneck backyard fun. Yeehaw.


Nasa approach...does that mean yur bot will explode as the start
signal is given or someone will screw up a measurement and your bot
will miss the arena and wind up heading out of the solar system on a
course to eternity?

Id suspect a good redneck backyard bot (made from a riding lawn mower)
would use a homebrew thermal lance made from a rusty piece of pipe
found in the back 40, and Grandmas O2 bottle and turn your bot into
$10,000 worth of smoldering scrap in right short order. Or simply
bludgen it to pieces with the differential from a 62 chevy pickemup
truck.

Yeehaw indeed.

Gunner

"Gunner, you are the same ridiculous liberal f--k you ever where."
Scipio
Hum - a nice 1/4" diameter TI rod with a heater wire on it - just might
make a fire torch that would melt the hole through anything. IIRC, 900 C.

Oh - maybe a metal fire is a violation.

Martin

--
Martin Eastburn, Barbara Eastburn
@ home at Lion's Lair with our computer
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder

B.B. wrote:

In article . com,
"AJ Quick" wrote:

[...]


I'm sorry if I am not up for using a car leaf spring as a weapon. I am
looking for raw metals that can be obtained easily, and worked with
easily. The robot design is fully CAD drawn, and will be made with a
high level of precision.. We take more of a NASA approach to this kind
of stuff.. not redneck backyard fun. Yeehaw.


Seems to me redneck stuff (when put together by intelligent rednecks)
outlasts precision anything when abused.
But, that said, http://tinyurl.com/4qdvn Thomas Registry if you don't
already know it. Has a lot of links to places where you can get
professional consultation, talk to engineers, and stay away from us
rednecks.
You might be able to find a source for the 6AL-4V material mentioned
earlier at http://tinyurl.com/68w8b
Yeehaw!

If you are looking for another or an East coast I located this one today :

da : http://www.titanium.com/

Seems simple - look in the buy on line - sheet - .... or whatever you want plank :-)

Martin - what is the difference of 6AL-4V and Grade 2 and ?? 6AL-4 Eli ?

--
Martin Eastburn, Barbara Eastburn
@ home at Lion's Lair with our computer
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder

On 23 Dec 2004 13:40:49 -0800, "AJ Quick" wrote:

"Id suspect a good redneck backyard bot (made from a riding lawn mower)
would use a homebrew thermal lance made from a rusty piece of pipe
found in the back 40, and Grandmas O2 bottle and turn your bot into
$10,000 worth of smoldering scrap in right short order. Or simply
bludgen it to pieces with the differential from a 62 chevy pickemup
truck."

It would never pass safety inspection.

Safety inspection? For a varmint thats designed to destroy another
varmint? What the hell for? You clear the area, the designated
starters fire em up and then run like hell out of the Zone of Robot
Death.

"Nasa approach...does that mean yur bot will explode as the start
signal is given or someone will screw up a measurement and your bot
will miss the arena and wind up heading out of the solar system on a
course to eternity?"

Yeah.. Good ole' NASA. But I'm not thinking of that NASA.. I'm thinking
of the ones that make that wonderful memory foam materess. I figured
someone would have something to say about NASAs errors in the past..

Your welcome. G

"Just one quick comment on that. The higher the precision, the quicker
it will jam. The military learned that 50 years ago with weapons."

I think that has to do more with the tolerances. I know there were
quite a bit of guns and weapons that weren't made with the same
precision each time, so none of the parts were ever interchangable..
and the guns jammed and blew up in their hands.. so I don't know if
that really holds true.. I know, for example, when they put the turret
of a tank on its platform, it has to be so percisely aligned that even
a thousandth of an inch will not work out right. Same with all the
calibration and alignment to fire.. but once you get down to it.. pull
trigger and shoot.

Evidently you are not particularly familiar with weapons. The AK-47
was designed to be cheaply stamped out of sheet metal and then handed
to the first thumb fingered turd world savage you managed to coax out
of his cave, told the rudiments of sight picture, how to load the
magazine, which end the round comes out of and turned loose on your
enemy(s). It likes its forebearer, the SKS etc etc all perform
magnificently at this task. Tolerances are loose, the weapon may
rattle when shaken, but does the job no matter if its been just drug
out of the swamp, the mud hole, the sand dune or the manure pile in
which it was stored or fallen. The M-16 will puke its guts out and
become a large ungainly paperweight long before the AK/SKS etc notices
its filled with yak ****. This is called Design for the Real World.
The KISS Princible is a great one to stake your life on. The US
trifold military entrenching tool..is no more than a simple, folding
shovel that sucks big time. The wooden handled Russian shovel works
first time, everytime, no matter what you do to it. This is called
Design for the Real World (AKA...Murphy was an optimist)

If the turret requires .001 tolerences before it will traverse, the
first time some gomer with an AK manages to put that lil 127gr peanut
into the hull/joint..it would become a very expensive tomb for its
crew. Or dirt, etc etc. Thats called Over Engineering for the Fantasy
World.

I was under the impression that this group dealt with high percision
and CNC type metal working. I guess I will have to try
rec.crafts.watchmaking instead.

It is. However..there is a huge difference between building things
like clocks that need tiny clearences and other things that need big
clearences to not only work properly, but to continue working in the
Real World. The trick is knowing what and when. Ive seen many prints
that the dimensions are spec'ed in 4 digits. When 2 or three would be
fine, and preferable. You build your Bot to 4 digits precision, and
the first bot with a flail comes along, gives your Swiss watch a
healthy bash..and suddenly your 4 digit tolerences become a
hinderence, rather than a help as the mechanism locks up tighter than
a virgin aunt. There is a huge difference between Tolerence and
Practical Working Clearance. Engineers tend to forget this. Dirty
fingernailed technicians understand this very very well. Thats why we
make the things the Engineers build, work in the Real World.

Shrug. Be anal when you need to be, but "Keep It Simple Stupid", the
rest of the time. "Simple is good". "Complex is easy". "Works
everytime no matter what", is best.

"Frankly I was surprized to leard that you'd spent $7,000.00 on a
project that hadnt been tested with at least one "bl;ade"."

We have $7000 in parts.. motors, gearboxes, batteries, controllers. No
materials yet to actually make the chassis or weapon. Hence my presence
here.

Cool, so pay attention to the really fart smellers here and learn to
build your varmint so it works every time, no matter what.
Err..smart fellers. G

Gunner

"To be civilized is to restrain the ability to commit mayhem.
To be incapable of committing mayhem is not the mark of the civilized,
merely the domesticated." - Trefor Thomas

On Fri, 24 Dec 2004 05:43:15 GMT, "Martin H. Eastburn"
calmly ranted:

Hum - a nice 1/4" diameter TI rod with a heater wire on it - just might
make a fire torch that would melt the hole through anything. IIRC, 900 C.

Oh - maybe a metal fire is a violation.

Mebbe so. Howzbout a bottle of liquid nitrogen, to chill out the
other bot? Then a MUCH smaller spinner would work to stop it by
battering it into tiny metal, silicon, and rubber icecubes.

--
"Most Folks Are As Happy As They Make Up Their Minds To Be"
-Abraham Lincoln
-----------------------------------------------------------
www.diversify.com - Happy Website Development

wrote:
: Battle Bots going off the air didn't have anything to do w/ "Tech Tv"
: channel being bought out?
--Different show; you're thinking of Robot Wars; it was the
"owner" of that event that sued Battlebots. Battlebots won the lawsuit but
it took almost 2 years for them to do so. 2 years of injunctions including
one that said they couldn't change the content of their website or send
out any info, hence no contests for those 2 years. Also no network deals.
Now the "fad" has come and gone as far as TV goes. With
consolidation of previously independent stations there's no network
for them to approach. Lawyers, exective decisions, all that crap. Bottom
line: 300 teams of hackerly kids with 600 machines no longer have a place
to evolve their designs. Game over.

: I haven't watched much of what was Tech Tv since. It's mostly
computer
: games now. I wasn't aware Battle bots are off the air. I lost interest
: ddue to the MC & Hosts incomprensable British accents. Not because of
: the botts themselfs.
: Happy Holidays, John


--
"Steamboat Ed" Haas : Somehow related
Hacking the Trailing Edge! : to Lumpy Adams...
http://www.nmpproducts.com/intro.htm
---Decks a-wash in a sea of words---

SNIP

2 years of injunctions including
one that said they couldn't change the content of their website or send
out any info, hence no contests for those 2 years. Also no network deals.
Now the "fad" has come and gone as far as TV goes. With
consolidation of previously independent stations there's no network
for them to approach. Lawyers, exective decisions, all that crap. Bottom
line: 300 teams of hackerly kids with 600 machines no longer have a place
to evolve their designs. Game over.

SNIP

Game OVER.... Once AGAIN the attorneys win and the kids loose out,
untimately, because some twit gets his nose out of joint. This political
correctness crap, and the ACLU is gonna be our undoing if America doesn't
get hold, lawyers notwithstanding!!

Merry Christmas to all on a great site!!

Bill in Phx..