and my generator ain't working . Well , the power is back on now , but I
still don't know why the generator isn't putting out . Motor starts and runs
normally , but I'm not getting any power . Last time I checked it (couple of
months ago) everything was working fine but this morning at 3:00 it wasn't
....
I'll be opening up the control panel and taking the end cover off the
generator unit itself to see if there's anything I can see , maybe something
on the armature slip ring or something , maybe a loose wire . I'm open to
suggestions ...
--
Snag

On Mon, 18 Jan 2016 07:50:47 -0600
"Terry Coombs" wrote:

and my generator ain't working . Well , the power is back on now , but I
still don't know why the generator isn't putting out . Motor starts and runs
normally , but I'm not getting any power . Last time I checked it (couple of
months ago) everything was working fine but this morning at 3:00 it wasn't
...
I'll be opening up the control panel and taking the end cover off the
generator unit itself to see if there's anything I can see , maybe something
on the armature slip ring or something , maybe a loose wire . I'm open to
suggestions ...

Check the breaker, wires to the outlet on it you use regularly... all
the simple stuff first and maybe the extension cord you tried using
with it.

My mind always goes to the worst, most complicated/expensive things
first but usually it is the really simple stuff that goes bad...

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email

Leon Fisk wrote:
On Mon, 18 Jan 2016 07:50:47 -0600
"Terry Coombs" wrote:

and my generator ain't working . Well , the power is back on now ,
but I still don't know why the generator isn't putting out . Motor
starts and runs normally , but I'm not getting any power . Last time
I checked it (couple of months ago) everything was working fine but
this morning at 3:00 it wasn't ...
I'll be opening up the control panel and taking the end cover off
the generator unit itself to see if there's anything I can see ,
maybe something on the armature slip ring or something , maybe a
loose wire . I'm open to suggestions ...

Check the breaker, wires to the outlet on it you use regularly... all
the simple stuff first and maybe the extension cord you tried using
with it.

My mind always goes to the worst, most complicated/expensive things
first but usually it is the really simple stuff that goes bad...


Breaker "feels" like it always did . I have a hookup to back feed the main
panel thru the shop sub , when I didn't get any power to the shop I plugged
a small heater unit directly into the generator panel . This thing has less
than 20 hours on it , it shouldn't be giving me any problems . I'll be
checking it out today , we never know when we'll need it .
--
Snag

BTW , this is a B&S 5500W/8500W surge OHV unit I bought to replace an
identical one that was stolen , that one ran flawlessly for well over a
hundred hours with no maintainence but oil changes and tightening an
occasional loose bolt .

"Leon Fisk" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 18 Jan 2016 07:50:47 -0600
"Terry Coombs" wrote:

and my generator ain't working . Well , the power is back on now ,
but I
still don't know why the generator isn't putting out . Motor starts
and runs
normally , but I'm not getting any power . Last time I checked it
(couple of
months ago) everything was working fine but this morning at 3:00 it
wasn't
...
I'll be opening up the control panel and taking the end cover off
the
generator unit itself to see if there's anything I can see , maybe
something
on the armature slip ring or something , maybe a loose wire . I'm
open to
suggestions ...

Check the breaker, wires to the outlet on it you use regularly...
all
the simple stuff first and maybe the extension cord you tried using
with it.

My mind always goes to the worst, most complicated/expensive things
first but usually it is the really simple stuff that goes bad...

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email

I just spent two days fussing with mine, second-hand Colemans with
annoying problems and carbs that aren't mentioned in my repair
manuals. They are tempting me to buy the smallest Honda. Has anyone
had problems with those?

-jsw

"Terry Coombs" wrote in message
...
Leon Fisk wrote:
On Mon, 18 Jan 2016 07:50:47 -0600
"Terry Coombs" wrote:

and my generator ain't working . Well , the power is back on now
,
but I still don't know why the generator isn't putting out . Motor
starts and runs normally , but I'm not getting any power . Last
time
I checked it (couple of months ago) everything was working fine
but
this morning at 3:00 it wasn't ...
I'll be opening up the control panel and taking the end cover off
the generator unit itself to see if there's anything I can see ,
maybe something on the armature slip ring or something , maybe a
loose wire . I'm open to suggestions ...

Check the breaker, wires to the outlet on it you use regularly...
all
the simple stuff first and maybe the extension cord you tried using
with it.

My mind always goes to the worst, most complicated/expensive things
first but usually it is the really simple stuff that goes bad...


Breaker "feels" like it always did . I have a hookup to back feed
the main panel thru the shop sub , when I didn't get any power to
the shop I plugged a small heater unit directly into the generator
panel . This thing has less than 20 hours on it , it shouldn't be
giving me any problems . I'll be checking it out today , we never
know when we'll need it .
--
Snag

BTW , this is a B&S 5500W/8500W surge OHV unit I bought to replace
an identical one that was stolen , that one ran flawlessly for well
over a hundred hours with no maintainence but oil changes and
tightening an occasional loose bolt .

Early in my Army electronic training I learned to first look for loose
connections and continuity-check fuses or breakers. The instructors
heated and removed one end cap from AGC fuses and inserted paper with
"good fuse" on it, then replaced the caps. Naturally this broke the
fuse element, but the rolled paper concealed its absence.

I was the first to find it, then the instructor and I watched almost
everyone else examine and reinsert the bogus fuses and continue
troubleshooting.

Another trick was to insert a heavy but too-short piece of tinned bus
wire.

-jsw

On Mon, 18 Jan 2016 09:17:40 -0500
"Jim Wilkins" wrote:

snip
I just spent two days fussing with mine, second-hand Colemans with
annoying problems and carbs that aren't mentioned in my repair
manuals. They are tempting me to buy the smallest Honda. Has anyone
had problems with those?

Ours is an old Honda eg3500 (3500 watt) unit. Must be ~25 years old now
but not a lot of running hours. You can see a few for sale via ebay:

http://www.ebay.com/sch/items/?_nkw=honda+eg3500

Probably a little bigger than what you were looking for...

Can you just put some generic carbs on the Colemans? With the internet,
nowadays it's possible to find and figure stuff out without spending a
fortune. Probably even a youtube video with some redneck making the
switch ;-)

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email

On 1/18/2016 7:50 AM, Terry Coombs wrote:
and my generator ain't working . Well , the power is back on now , but I
still don't know why the generator isn't putting out . Motor starts and runs
normally , but I'm not getting any power . Last time I checked it (couple of
months ago) everything was working fine but this morning at 3:00 it wasn't
...
I'll be opening up the control panel and taking the end cover off the
generator unit itself to see if there's anything I can see , maybe something
on the armature slip ring or something , maybe a loose wire . I'm open to
suggestions ...


Look up flashing the field on a generator.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECu4C__r1Qc

Loads of videos, some spin a drill to energize the field/

Mikek

On Monday, January 18, 2016 at 8:50:50 AM UTC-5, Terry Coombs wrote:
and my generator ain't working . Well , the power is back on now , but I
still don't know why the generator isn't putting out . Motor starts and runs
normally , but I'm not getting any power . Last time I checked it (couple of
months ago) everything was working fine but this morning at 3:00 it wasn't
...
I'll be opening up the control panel and taking the end cover off the
generator unit itself to see if there's anything I can see , maybe something
on the armature slip ring or something , maybe a loose wire . I'm open to
suggestions ...
--
Snag

Is there a capacitor in the generator? That's what was wrong with my neighbor's, back during Hurricane Sandy. That's when I learned that, for $50, you can get Grainger's to open their store any time.

https://youtu.be/zudK5HZkZEg

Probably just needs a field reflash. A lot of cheap generators won't
come up under load and the process demagnetizes the field poles.

If your generator has slip rings, momentarily touch 12 volts from a
battery to the rings. Then start the generator with no load.

If there are no slip rings (harmonically excited field), rotate the
field so that it is directly under the stator pole pieces. Connect a
12 volt battery to the output for a second, breaking the connection
rapidly. An ignition condenser between the leads to be opened will
make the stator field collapse much faster which magnetizes rotor.

If your machine has brushes, taking the end plate off is a good time
to make sure one isn't stuck in its holder.

John


On Mon, 18 Jan 2016 07:50:47 -0600, "Terry Coombs"
wrote:

and my generator ain't working . Well , the power is back on now , but I
still don't know why the generator isn't putting out . Motor starts and runs
normally , but I'm not getting any power . Last time I checked it (couple of
months ago) everything was working fine but this morning at 3:00 it wasn't
...
I'll be opening up the control panel and taking the end cover off the
generator unit itself to see if there's anything I can see , maybe something
on the armature slip ring or something , maybe a loose wire . I'm open to
suggestions ...
John DeArmond
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.tnduction.com
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
See website for email address

On Monday, January 18, 2016 at 3:30:33 PM UTC-5, Neon John wrote:



John DeArmond
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.tnduction.com
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
See website for email address

This is to to any body in particular. But Neon John said the little 2 stroke generators from China are pretty good. So I bought one. It works well. No power outages since I got it. A friend claimed one needed a larger generator to keep from having power outages, but this seems to work for me.

Dan

wrote in message
...
On Monday, January 18, 2016 at 3:30:33 PM UTC-5, Neon John wrote:



John DeArmond
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.tnduction.com
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
See website for email address

This is to to any body in particular. But Neon John said the little 2
stroke generators from China are pretty good. So I bought one. It
works well. No power outages since I got it. A friend claimed one
needed a larger generator to keep from having power outages, but this
seems to work for me.

Dan

=============

How loud is it?
-jsw

On Mon, 18 Jan 2016 16:48:22 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

wrote in message
...
On Monday, January 18, 2016 at 3:30:33 PM UTC-5, Neon John wrote:



John DeArmond
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.tnduction.com
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
See website for email address

This is to to any body in particular. But Neon John said the little 2
stroke generators from China are pretty good. So I bought one. It
works well. No power outages since I got it. A friend claimed one
needed a larger generator to keep from having power outages, but this
seems to work for me.

Dan

=============

How loud is it?

LOUD ENOUGH TO KEEP THE WOLVES AWAKE.

Just Gawdawful. Some of the HFs run 91dB, too noisy for anything but
an immediate emergency. Neighbors would take a sledge hammer to it
within the hour.

--
No greater wrong can ever be done than to put a good man at the mercy
of a bad, while telling him not to defend himself or his fellows;
in no way can the success of evil be made quicker or surer.
--Theodore Roosevelt

On Monday, January 18, 2016 at 4:48:20 PM UTC-5, Jim Wilkins wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Monday, January 18, 2016 at 3:30:33 PM UTC-5, Neon John wrote:



John DeArmond
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.tnduction.com
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
See website for email address

This is to to any body in particular. But Neon John said the little 2
stroke generators from China are pretty good. So I bought one. It
works well. No power outages since I got it. A friend claimed one
needed a larger generator to keep from having power outages, but this
seems to work for me.

Dan

=============

How loud is it?
-jsw

Or how quiet, maybe.

On Monday, January 18, 2016 at 4:48:20 PM UTC-5, Jim Wilkins wrote:


How loud is it?
-jsw

Not all that loud. If it were outside and I were inside with the windows closed, it would be barely noticeable by me or my neighbors.

Dan

On Tue, 19 Jan 2016 05:15:24 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:
How loud is it?
-jsw

Not all that loud. If it were outside and I were inside with the windows closed, it would be barely noticeable by me or my neighbors.

The small generator my son & I were given is quiet, 10 metres away the
noise is hardly noticeable. This was a good score, it was broken as
it had been dropped and the fuel tank mounts were broken and the air
cleaner smashed. 2 bits of 3 x 25 strap and new bolts, a carby clead
and it runs well.
This came as part of buying a used Yanmar diesel water pump for our
fire tanker. The original fire pump's B&S motor's carby had
disintegrated with zamac rot and we cannot get a replacement in Oz and
a new one from USA is $123 + $50 postage which works out to about $250
Oz - a real rip off. I can get a new complete pump from Bunnings
for about $275.

With the Yanmar (working) pump came a Honda pump, Honda 1900w
generator, 1 Honda 10hp motor, 2 Honda 5hp, 1 with 2-1 reduction
gearbox, a Honda 3.5 hp with threaded shaft and 2 Mitsubishi 5hp
motors, all non runners.

The pump was siezed but with a pump dismantle & clean + carby
clean and new starter cord and some "Start ya *******" (ether) and a
few pulls it runs fine. No.2 son gets that to build his fire tanker.
for his 3 acre block.

The 1900W generator just needed a new cord and carby clean & tune
up + SyB, runs great. Previous owner probably too lazy or stupid to
replace the cord - will probably sell it as we already have 5kW
diesel & 2.3kW petrol generators.

The 10hp is missing the fuel tank and throttle control but afrter a
clean and temporary fuel tank it runs, all we have to do is make a new
throttle control.

The 2 x 5hp Hondas both run after cleaning carby's and swapping
them over as one carby is buggered. A new one from Hong Kong is
$15.95 delivered, same thing from Sydney is $19.95 delivered but 2
weeks faster.

The 3.5hp responded to TLS and a carby clean an now has the pump
from the B&S on it but is a bit underpowered, still, it is a spare
until we build another trailer.

We still have to work on the Mitsubishi's, that is for this
weekend.

Does anyone know where I may be able to get a carby for the 5hp
industrial B&S at a reasonable price?
Thanks,
Alan

wrote in message
...
On Monday, January 18, 2016 at 4:48:20 PM UTC-5, Jim Wilkins wrote:


How loud is it?
-jsw

Not all that loud. If it were outside and I were inside with the
windows closed, it would be barely noticeable by me or my neighbors.

Dan

I took a chance on the HF 2200W inverter generator #61169, $399.99
with a coupon. Hopefully it will be unnoticeably quiet from the street
under my usual wintertime load of less than 200W and able to run the
A/C or microwave if we have a summer hurricane outage. Ideally my
APC1400 UPS will accept its output quality and recharge the batteries.
It rejects AC from the engine-governor-regulated Colemans even at its
lowest sensitivity.

I drained and examined the residual factory oil and found a few shiny
flecks and one larger black one. The ones I checked weren't magnetic.
I haven't filtered it yet to concentrate them. The oil is dark enough
to suggest they continually reuse it.

There appears to be some sort of filter or strainer above the oil
drain plug, pressed in by a spring that makes reinstalling the plug a
two oily hand job. The exploded diagram calls it a "Fuel Filter Asm."

Now, Arctic weather permitting, I have to give it a thorough checkout
while it can be returned.

-jsw

On Tue, 19 Jan 2016 17:44:32 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

wrote in message
...
On Monday, January 18, 2016 at 4:48:20 PM UTC-5, Jim Wilkins wrote:


How loud is it?
-jsw

Not all that loud. If it were outside and I were inside with the
windows closed, it would be barely noticeable by me or my neighbors.

Dan

I took a chance on the HF 2200W inverter generator #61169, $399.99
with a coupon. Hopefully it will be unnoticeably quiet from the street
under my usual wintertime load of less than 200W and able to run the
A/C or microwave if we have a summer hurricane outage. Ideally my
APC1400 UPS will accept its output quality and recharge the batteries.
It rejects AC from the engine-governor-regulated Colemans even at its
lowest sensitivity.

Build a double baffle box around it to quiet it down, Jim.
Add a hose for clean air intake. 3-sided+top boxes with carpeting
tacked on both sides works unusually well. A larger one over the
other makes the double. A third larger one really quiets things.


I drained and examined the residual factory oil and found a few shiny
flecks and one larger black one. The ones I checked weren't magnetic.
I haven't filtered it yet to concentrate them. The oil is dark enough
to suggest they continually reuse it.

Aluminum flash from the case, probably. New oil is always in order
for new machines, even if they come oiled up.


There appears to be some sort of filter or strainer above the oil
drain plug, pressed in by a spring that makes reinstalling the plug a
two oily hand job. The exploded diagram calls it a "Fuel Filter Asm."

HF usually has nitrile gloves on sale for $6/100. They're excellent.
I love the little white 3mils. They're as thin as latex (for easy
dexterity) but are 5x stronger and much more solvent resistant.


Now, Arctic weather permitting, I have to give it a thorough checkout
while it can be returned.

We warmed up to 50 today, amid rainstorms.

--
No greater wrong can ever be done than to put a good man at the mercy
of a bad, while telling him not to defend himself or his fellows;
in no way can the success of evil be made quicker or surer.
--Theodore Roosevelt

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 19 Jan 2016 17:44:32 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


Build a double baffle box around it to quiet it down, Jim.
Add a hose for clean air intake. 3-sided+top boxes with carpeting
tacked on both sides works unusually well. A larger one over the
other makes the double. A third larger one really quiets things.

I did make one, from fireproof acoustic ceiling panels rimmed with 2"
strips of old steel pool liner bent into U channel. I also made an
extended muffler from fiberglass pipe insulation.

The box cut the sound level about in half from the back side and
reduced its pitch, the muffler showed that the factory one is quite
effective already and the sound radiates from the engine instead. The
box can't enclose the generator too much because it needs a free flow
of cooling air.

-jsw

On Tue, 19 Jan 2016 20:44:21 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 19 Jan 2016 17:44:32 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


Build a double baffle box around it to quiet it down, Jim.
Add a hose for clean air intake. 3-sided+top boxes with carpeting
tacked on both sides works unusually well. A larger one over the
other makes the double. A third larger one really quiets things.

I did make one, from fireproof acoustic ceiling panels rimmed with 2"
strips of old steel pool liner bent into U channel. I also made an
extended muffler from fiberglass pipe insulation.

The box cut the sound level about in half from the back side and
reduced its pitch, the muffler showed that the factory one is quite
effective already and the sound radiates from the engine instead. The

Yes, the engine and the intake are the two top noisemakers, followed
closely by the exhaust. Intake noise surprised the hell out of me. I
had no idea compressors were so loud in that aspect.


box can't enclose the generator too much because it needs a free flow
of cooling air.

I'm thinking 3" of air between each side & top of each baffle box.
That gives it plenty of room for air flow, but the zig-zag and carpet
nix the sound waves.

--
No greater wrong can ever be done than to put a good man at the mercy
of a bad, while telling him not to defend himself or his fellows;
in no way can the success of evil be made quicker or surer.
--Theodore Roosevelt

On Tue, 19 Jan 2016 20:44:21 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 19 Jan 2016 17:44:32 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


Build a double baffle box around it to quiet it down, Jim.
Add a hose for clean air intake. 3-sided+top boxes with carpeting
tacked on both sides works unusually well. A larger one over the
other makes the double. A third larger one really quiets things.

I did make one, from fireproof acoustic ceiling panels rimmed with 2"
strips of old steel pool liner bent into U channel. I also made an
extended muffler from fiberglass pipe insulation.

The box cut the sound level about in half from the back side and
reduced its pitch, the muffler showed that the factory one is quite
effective already and the sound radiates from the engine instead. The
box can't enclose the generator too much because it needs a free flow
of cooling air.

-jsw


We can pick up some lessons from the way they enclose marine engines
in boats, and backup generators for large buildings. Some of this also
applies to today's cars, which use some of the same principles.

There are three basic principles: Increase the mass of the enclosure;
use non-ringing materials that are inherently resistant to vibrating;
and kill the energy with friction.

The first is done in boats and some generator enclosures with sheet
lead or, in the case of some large stationary generators, like the one
we had at McGraw-Hill in NJ, to back up our IBM 360s, masonry. The
lead gives you mass and is non-ringing.

Friction comes into play with viscoelastic materials that turn
vibrational energy into friction and heat.

A common enclosure for marine engines (it has a name, which I forget)
is two sheets of lead sandwiching a plastic foam that is somewhat
viscoelastic. My uncle's 42-footer with CAT V8 used this material,
about an inch and a half thick. The foam decouples vibration from one
lead sheet to the other, by killing the energy in friction.

In cars, that was once the real purpose for undercoating, but today
they often use a material, originally from Sweden but now produced
around the world, that is two layers of steel sheet sandwiching a
layer of solid viscoelastic polymer. The total sandwich is less than
1/8" thick, and it's very effective. It's used between the passenger
compartment and the engine compartment, in the firewall, and you may
never see it because the edges of the sandwich are either welded or
turned over. You can spot-weld right through it. Volvo used a lot of
it.

So, disregarding the muffler and assuming a stationary setup, the
trick is to get as much non-vibrating mass as you can around the
engine; and decouple the sound from the insde of the enclosure to the
outside. Use some of that marine sound enclosure material if you can
get it. You can buy open-cell foam made for decoupling sound, such as
Antiphon:

http://antiphon.se/en/products-appli...bing-products/

Using baffles and so on is another approach, but it involves some
acoustical trickery. You may get lucky, or it may do nothing. Muffler
design, for example, has gotten pretty fancy, tuned for destructive
interference of sound waves. But that's over our heads unless you do
it for a living.

May you have peace and quiet...

--
Ed Huntress

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 19 Jan 2016 20:44:21 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
. ..
On Tue, 19 Jan 2016 17:44:32 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


Build a double baffle box around it to quiet it down, Jim.
Add a hose for clean air intake. 3-sided+top boxes with carpeting
tacked on both sides works unusually well. A larger one over the
other makes the double. A third larger one really quiets things.

I did make one, from fireproof acoustic ceiling panels rimmed with
2"
strips of old steel pool liner bent into U channel. I also made an
extended muffler from fiberglass pipe insulation.

The box cut the sound level about in half from the back side and
reduced its pitch, the muffler showed that the factory one is quite
effective already and the sound radiates from the engine instead.
The
box can't enclose the generator too much because it needs a free
flow
of cooling air.

-jsw


We can pick up some lessons from the way they enclose marine engines
in boats, and backup generators for large buildings. Some of this
also
applies to today's cars, which use some of the same principles.

There are three basic principles: Increase the mass of the
enclosure;
use non-ringing materials that are inherently resistant to
vibrating;
and kill the energy with friction.

The first is done in boats and some generator enclosures with sheet
lead or, in the case of some large stationary generators, like the
one
we had at McGraw-Hill in NJ, to back up our IBM 360s, masonry. The
lead gives you mass and is non-ringing.

Friction comes into play with viscoelastic materials that turn
vibrational energy into friction and heat.

A common enclosure for marine engines (it has a name, which I
forget)
is two sheets of lead sandwiching a plastic foam that is somewhat
viscoelastic. My uncle's 42-footer with CAT V8 used this material,
about an inch and a half thick. The foam decouples vibration from
one
lead sheet to the other, by killing the energy in friction.

In cars, that was once the real purpose for undercoating, but today
they often use a material, originally from Sweden but now produced
around the world, that is two layers of steel sheet sandwiching a
layer of solid viscoelastic polymer. The total sandwich is less than
1/8" thick, and it's very effective. It's used between the passenger
compartment and the engine compartment, in the firewall, and you may
never see it because the edges of the sandwich are either welded or
turned over. You can spot-weld right through it. Volvo used a lot of
it.

So, disregarding the muffler and assuming a stationary setup, the
trick is to get as much non-vibrating mass as you can around the
engine; and decouple the sound from the insde of the enclosure to
the
outside. Use some of that marine sound enclosure material if you can
get it. You can buy open-cell foam made for decoupling sound, such
as
Antiphon:

http://antiphon.se/en/products-appli...bing-products/

Using baffles and so on is another approach, but it involves some
acoustical trickery. You may get lucky, or it may do nothing.
Muffler
design, for example, has gotten pretty fancy, tuned for destructive
interference of sound waves. But that's over our heads unless you do
it for a living.

May you have peace and quiet...

--
Ed Huntress

My Chemistry degree covered Physics fairly well. We learned both the
mathematical and the graphical methods to predict wave diffraction and
interference, and how to design simple resonant cavities like organ
pipes, which helped when I was unexpectedly transferred from computer
communications to microwave radios, whose housings mustn't leak or
resonate.

One of the problems the professor had consulted on and showed us how
to analyze was the vibrational properties of a sound stage floor made
from extruded aluminum T sections whose recesses were filled with
urethane foam. Cast RIM urethane with its graded density looked like
it would couple better at the interfaces than inserted precut foam.

Sound waves propagate and interfere nearly the same way as radar so
mumble stealth principles apply.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ripple_tank

The difficult issues with a generator enclosure are fire containment
and determining how hot the internals are, and should be. I can use
thermocouples but it would be easier if I had a thermal camera and a
transparent generator housing to determine where to put them.

I run the genny on a metal tray to contain leaked oil and gasoline.
The smaller Coleman has had a problem with both, some from new
replacement fuel line and a shutoff valve from the local repair shop.
Fortunately I prechecked them last week at eye level on a lift and
found the slow gas drip. The oil leak is probably why the first owner
sold it to a pawn shop. As the HF clerk told me, equipment they bring
inside must first be drained of gas and oil so they can't test it.

I'm hoping this inverter genny will be clean and voltage-stable enough
for my computers and test gear etc. I can still roll a Coleman where
it's needed to run a saw or my high-inrush Maytag.

-jsw

On Tuesday, January 19, 2016 at 11:53:47 PM UTC-5, Ed Huntress wrote:


We can pick up some lessons from the way they enclose marine engines
in boats, and backup generators for large buildings. Some of this also
applies to today's cars, which use some of the same principles.

There are three basic principles: Increase the mass of the enclosure;
use non-ringing materials that are inherently resistant to vibrating;
and kill the energy with friction.


May you have peace and quiet...

--
Ed Huntress

Reminds me of machine bases consisting of a weldment with cavities filled with crushed granite in epoxy.

Another thought is using 4 inch corrugated plastic drain pipe buried underground to carry the exhaust away. Could also be used to silence the intake. But a lot of work for an emergency generator.

Dan

On Wed, 20 Jan 2016 06:19:33 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Tuesday, January 19, 2016 at 11:53:47 PM UTC-5, Ed Huntress wrote:


We can pick up some lessons from the way they enclose marine engines
in boats, and backup generators for large buildings. Some of this also
applies to today's cars, which use some of the same principles.

There are three basic principles: Increase the mass of the enclosure;
use non-ringing materials that are inherently resistant to vibrating;
and kill the energy with friction.


May you have peace and quiet...

--
Ed Huntress

Reminds me of machine bases consisting of a weldment with cavities filled with crushed granite in epoxy.

Yes, that material is pretty effective -- low ringing, plus mass.
"Damping" vibration, or killing it with friction (converting it to
heat) as I described it, takes place in those polymer/stone base
materials, too.

It also happens with cast iron -- the lower the grade and strength of
the c.i., the better the damping.


Another thought is using 4 inch corrugated plastic drain pipe buried underground to carry the exhaust away. Could also be used to silence the intake. But a lot of work for an emergency generator.

Dan

On 01/19/2016 04:44 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
I took a chance on the HF 2200W inverter generator #61169, $399.99
with a coupon. Hopefully it will be unnoticeably quiet from the street
under my usual wintertime load of less than 200W and able to run the
A/C or microwave if we have a summer hurricane outage.

Good luck trying to start an A/C with that little inverter generator.
I also see no mention that the output is true sine wave, so some
computer power supplies might not be happy with the output waveform.

--
Bob Nichols AT comcast.net I am "RNichols42"

On Wed, 20 Jan 2016 08:48:09 -0600, Robert Nichols
wrote:

On 01/19/2016 04:44 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
I took a chance on the HF 2200W inverter generator #61169, $399.99
with a coupon. Hopefully it will be unnoticeably quiet from the street
under my usual wintertime load of less than 200W and able to run the
A/C or microwave if we have a summer hurricane outage.

Good luck trying to start an A/C with that little inverter generator.
I also see no mention that the output is true sine wave, so some
computer power supplies might not be happy with the output waveform.

I'm curious about that. I've never investigated those power supplies,
but I thought that the output from battery batckup, like my APC, was
square wave or something jagged, anyway. I've never put a 'scope on
mine but have thought about doing it.

Anyway, for anyone experienced with these power supplies, what's the
story?

--
Ed Huntress

"Robert Nichols" wrote
in message ...
On 01/19/2016 04:44 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
I took a chance on the HF 2200W inverter generator #61169, $399.99
with a coupon. Hopefully it will be unnoticeably quiet from the
street
under my usual wintertime load of less than 200W and able to run
the
A/C or microwave if we have a summer hurricane outage.

Good luck trying to start an A/C with that little inverter
generator.
I also see no mention that the output is true sine wave, so some
computer power supplies might not be happy with the output waveform.


I bought and repaired a ratty 3 KW Coleman specifically for the motors
in my Maytag and air compressor, both of which jump over 30A on an
Amprobe when starting. The A/C isn't as bad even when stalled by
turning it off and quickly back on, which I forgetfully did after
hosing the coils in the driveway. That genny has little to damage with
an overload because it "regulates" voltage with the engine governor.
It just bogs down until the breaker trips.

These Dell laptops and my Hitachi monitor and Vizio TV all work fine
on the +/- 160V square waves from cheap inverters. I faked a Dell
input jack with brass tubing and checked a power brick with a resistor
load first.

-jsw

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 20 Jan 2016 08:48:09 -0600, Robert Nichols
wrote:

On 01/19/2016 04:44 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
I took a chance on the HF 2200W inverter generator #61169, $399.99
with a coupon. Hopefully it will be unnoticeably quiet from the
street
under my usual wintertime load of less than 200W and able to run
the
A/C or microwave if we have a summer hurricane outage.

Good luck trying to start an A/C with that little inverter
generator.
I also see no mention that the output is true sine wave, so some
computer power supplies might not be happy with the output waveform.

I'm curious about that. I've never investigated those power
supplies,
but I thought that the output from battery batckup, like my APC, was
square wave or something jagged, anyway. I've never put a 'scope on
mine but have thought about doing it.

Anyway, for anyone experienced with these power supplies, what's the
story?

--
Ed Huntress

The "modified sine" consists of flat-topped positive and negative
pulses of about 160 to 170V with some zero-output time between to
reduce the RMS to ~120V, hopefully. An average-reading meter gives the
wrong voltage. I've seen the pulse width vary with the load.
http://www.nooutage.com/inverter1.htm#waveforms

The peak value of a 120V sine wave is 170V, 120* SQRT(2).

A power brick that rectifies the input and accepts any worldwide
voltage -should- work fine with them but reports are that some don't.

APC sells both modified and true sine UPSs. I have the Smart-UPS 1400
which is true sine. It was free because the disgusted dealer couldn't
figure out how to open it to get the swollen batteries out. Actually
the front cover just pops off, exposing the screws.

-jsw

On Wed, 20 Jan 2016 10:58:18 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 20 Jan 2016 08:48:09 -0600, Robert Nichols
wrote:

On 01/19/2016 04:44 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
I took a chance on the HF 2200W inverter generator #61169, $399.99
with a coupon. Hopefully it will be unnoticeably quiet from the
street
under my usual wintertime load of less than 200W and able to run
the
A/C or microwave if we have a summer hurricane outage.

Good luck trying to start an A/C with that little inverter
generator.
I also see no mention that the output is true sine wave, so some
computer power supplies might not be happy with the output waveform.

I'm curious about that. I've never investigated those power
supplies,
but I thought that the output from battery batckup, like my APC, was
square wave or something jagged, anyway. I've never put a 'scope on
mine but have thought about doing it.

Anyway, for anyone experienced with these power supplies, what's the
story?

--
Ed Huntress

The "modified sine" consists of flat-topped positive and negative
pulses of about 160 to 170V with some zero-output time between to
reduce the RMS to ~120V, hopefully. An average-reading meter gives the
wrong voltage. I've seen the pulse width vary with the load.
http://www.nooutage.com/inverter1.htm#waveforms

The peak value of a 120V sine wave is 170V, 120* SQRT(2).

A power brick that rectifies the input and accepts any worldwide
voltage -should- work fine with them but reports are that some don't.

APC sells both modified and true sine UPSs. I have the Smart-UPS 1400
which is true sine. It was free because the disgusted dealer couldn't
figure out how to open it to get the swollen batteries out. Actually
the front cover just pops off, exposing the screws.

-jsw

Aha. Thanks, Jim.

--
Ed Huntress

On Wed, 20 Jan 2016 08:40:54 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

I'm hoping this inverter genny will be clean and voltage-stable enough
for my computers and test gear etc. I can still roll a Coleman where
it's needed to run a saw or my high-inrush Maytag.

Please let me know if it doesn't work, and what you find to clean up a
dirty powerline. I'm not sure the HF 2kw modified-sine inverter I
bought will power my Carrier Infinity heater will run properly on it.

If not, I may need to start searching for a line conditioner or plonk
out the bucks for a high-end pure-sine inverter. OR, consider the
move to a high-end controller with built-in inverter. I've found a
kit with cheap 45A Chinese controller, tees, wire, holddown clip, and
1080W of Sharp solar panels for $1,145, delivered.

--
No greater wrong can ever be done than to put a good man at the mercy
of a bad, while telling him not to defend himself or his fellows;
in no way can the success of evil be made quicker or surer.
--Theodore Roosevelt

On Wednesday, January 20, 2016 at 10:58:19 AM UTC-5, Jim Wilkins wrote:

It was free because the disgusted dealer couldn't
figure out how to open it to get the swollen batteries out. Actually
the front cover just pops off, exposing the screws.

-jsw

You have touched on one of the (many) things that gets me really ****ed off.. Why the hell can't APC leave a little extra room in the battery compartments of these things? The batteries swell. That's a fact. I have had to disassemble half the damned box and then use a flat bar to pry the batteries out. XL-RM battery boxes are a bitch - 8 12V 7A batteries in each box, and I service dozens of these.

An extra quarter inch wouldn't kill anyone - there's room in the box, just not in the internal brackets. Crappy, crappy design.

On Wed, 20 Jan 2016 09:59:36 -0500, Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Wed, 20 Jan 2016 08:48:09 -0600, Robert Nichols
wrote:

On 01/19/2016 04:44 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
I took a chance on the HF 2200W inverter generator #61169, $399.99
with a coupon. Hopefully it will be unnoticeably quiet from the street
under my usual wintertime load of less than 200W and able to run the
A/C or microwave if we have a summer hurricane outage.

Good luck trying to start an A/C with that little inverter generator.
I also see no mention that the output is true sine wave, so some
computer power supplies might not be happy with the output waveform.

I'm curious about that. I've never investigated those power supplies,
but I thought that the output from battery batckup, like my APC, was
square wave or something jagged, anyway. I've never put a 'scope on
mine but have thought about doing it.

Anyway, for anyone experienced with these power supplies, what's the
story?
Switch mode power supplies are pretty well power quality agnostic
these days, as long as there are no large spikes. They run just fine
on modified sine wave (AKA stepped ) or quasi-sine wave units and
don't seem to be bothered by the cheap square wave units either.
Square wave MOGHT reduce lifespan - but they still work.

wrote in message
...
On Wed, 20 Jan 2016 09:59:36 -0500, Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Wed, 20 Jan 2016 08:48:09 -0600, Robert Nichols
wrote:

On 01/19/2016 04:44 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
I took a chance on the HF 2200W inverter generator #61169,
$399.99
with a coupon. Hopefully it will be unnoticeably quiet from the
street
under my usual wintertime load of less than 200W and able to run
the
A/C or microwave if we have a summer hurricane outage.

Good luck trying to start an A/C with that little inverter
generator.
I also see no mention that the output is true sine wave, so some
computer power supplies might not be happy with the output
waveform.

I'm curious about that. I've never investigated those power
supplies,
but I thought that the output from battery batckup, like my APC, was
square wave or something jagged, anyway. I've never put a 'scope on
mine but have thought about doing it.

Anyway, for anyone experienced with these power supplies, what's the
story?
Switch mode power supplies are pretty well power quality agnostic
these days, as long as there are no large spikes. They run just fine
on modified sine wave (AKA stepped ) or quasi-sine wave units and
don't seem to be bothered by the cheap square wave units either.
Square wave MOGHT reduce lifespan - but they still work.

I can neither confirm nor deny these allegations:
http://forum.solar-electric.com/disc...wave-inverters
http://electronics.stackexchange.com...r-for-a-laptop

-qrm

On Wed, 20 Jan 2016 18:18:29 -0500, wrote:

On Wed, 20 Jan 2016 09:59:36 -0500, Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Wed, 20 Jan 2016 08:48:09 -0600, Robert Nichols
wrote:

On 01/19/2016 04:44 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
I took a chance on the HF 2200W inverter generator #61169, $399.99
with a coupon. Hopefully it will be unnoticeably quiet from the street
under my usual wintertime load of less than 200W and able to run the
A/C or microwave if we have a summer hurricane outage.

Good luck trying to start an A/C with that little inverter generator.
I also see no mention that the output is true sine wave, so some
computer power supplies might not be happy with the output waveform.

I'm curious about that. I've never investigated those power supplies,
but I thought that the output from battery batckup, like my APC, was
square wave or something jagged, anyway. I've never put a 'scope on
mine but have thought about doing it.

Anyway, for anyone experienced with these power supplies, what's the
story?
Switch mode power supplies are pretty well power quality agnostic
these days, as long as there are no large spikes. They run just fine
on modified sine wave (AKA stepped ) or quasi-sine wave units and
don't seem to be bothered by the cheap square wave units either.
Square wave MOGHT reduce lifespan - but they still work.

This is interesting. I finally took the time to look up some waveforms
and so on. I see that the answer to my question isn't necessarily
simple.

I would think there would be some inexpensive active filters to smooth
those outputs into something very close to a sine wave. But I've never
dealt with any kind of filters at 60 Hz, so maybe there are some
limitations of which I'm not aware.

--
Ed Huntress

Ed Huntress fired this volley in
:

I would think there would be some inexpensive active filters to smooth
those outputs into something very close to a sine wave. But I've never
dealt with any kind of filters at 60 Hz, so maybe there are some
limitations of which I'm not aware.

There is: It's called a "motor-generator". 'Makes VERY close to a sine
wave. OH... and if you use one, you can do away with the inverter to begin
with! G

Lloyd

On Wed, 20 Jan 2016 19:05:20 -0600, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

Ed Huntress fired this volley in
:

I would think there would be some inexpensive active filters to smooth
those outputs into something very close to a sine wave. But I've never
dealt with any kind of filters at 60 Hz, so maybe there are some
limitations of which I'm not aware.

There is: It's called a "motor-generator". 'Makes VERY close to a sine
wave. OH... and if you use one, you can do away with the inverter to begin
with! G

Lloyd

It would keep my feet warm at my computer desk, no doubt. d8-)

--
Ed Huntress

On Wed, 20 Jan 2016 20:39:13 -0500, BQ340
wrote:

On 1/20/2016 7:50 PM, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Wed, 20 Jan 2016 18:18:29 -0500, wrote:

On Wed, 20 Jan 2016 09:59:36 -0500, Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Wed, 20 Jan 2016 08:48:09 -0600, Robert Nichols
wrote:

On 01/19/2016 04:44 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
I took a chance on the HF 2200W inverter generator #61169, $399.99
with a coupon. Hopefully it will be unnoticeably quiet from the street
under my usual wintertime load of less than 200W and able to run the
A/C or microwave if we have a summer hurricane outage.

Good luck trying to start an A/C with that little inverter generator.
I also see no mention that the output is true sine wave, so some
computer power supplies might not be happy with the output waveform.

I'm curious about that. I've never investigated those power supplies,
but I thought that the output from battery batckup, like my APC, was
square wave or something jagged, anyway. I've never put a 'scope on
mine but have thought about doing it.

Anyway, for anyone experienced with these power supplies, what's the
story?
Switch mode power supplies are pretty well power quality agnostic
these days, as long as there are no large spikes. They run just fine
on modified sine wave (AKA stepped ) or quasi-sine wave units and
don't seem to be bothered by the cheap square wave units either.
Square wave MOGHT reduce lifespan - but they still work.

This is interesting. I finally took the time to look up some waveforms
and so on. I see that the answer to my question isn't necessarily
simple.

I would think there would be some inexpensive active filters to smooth
those outputs into something very close to a sine wave. But I've never
dealt with any kind of filters at 60 Hz, so maybe there are some
limitations of which I'm not aware.


Constant voltage transformers are cheap on the surplus market

MikeB

Oh, yeah, the saturation transformers. I haven't seen one in around 40
years. I didn't realize they were used in computer applications.

--
Ed Huntress

On 01/20/2016 08:59 AM, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Wed, 20 Jan 2016 08:48:09 -0600, Robert Nichols
wrote:

On 01/19/2016 04:44 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
I took a chance on the HF 2200W inverter generator #61169, $399.99
with a coupon. Hopefully it will be unnoticeably quiet from the street
under my usual wintertime load of less than 200W and able to run the
A/C or microwave if we have a summer hurricane outage.

Good luck trying to start an A/C with that little inverter generator.
I also see no mention that the output is true sine wave, so some
computer power supplies might not be happy with the output waveform.

I'm curious about that. I've never investigated those power supplies,
but I thought that the output from battery batckup, like my APC, was
square wave or something jagged, anyway. I've never put a 'scope on
mine but have thought about doing it.

Anyway, for anyone experienced with these power supplies, what's the
story?

Modern computer power supplies with "Active PFC" (Power Factor
Correction) aren't rated to run with PWM (Pulse Width Modulated) square
wave input. You see, with the old power supplies that just rectified the
line voltage straight into a big capacitor, all the current is drawn as
a big spike when the AC waveform rises above the voltage on the
capacitor. That current waveform has an RMS value that's way above the
average current. It's similar to the situation with a cheap electric
motor with a lousy power factor -- you're drawing a lot more
Volt-Amperes than you are Watts.

Power supplies with Active PFC have input circuitry that tries to make
the input current more closely track the (presumed sine wave) input
voltage. Feed one of those with a PWM square wave and it's trying to
track the fast rising leading edge of that pulse. That puts you back to
the current being drawn in big spikes, but that input circuitry wasn't
designed to handle that. Of course if you've got a 700W power supply on
a PC that's actually using only 120 Watts you should be fine. If you're
pushing the power supply anywhere near its ratings, you could fry it.
You need a power source that more closely simulates a sine wave.

--
Bob Nichols AT comcast.net I am "RNichols42"

On 01/20/2016 08:19 AM, wrote:

Another thought is using 4 inch corrugated plastic drain pipe buried
underground to carry the exhaust away. Could also be used to silence
the intake. But a lot of work for an emergency generator.

You might be surprised at how little of the noise comes from the
exhaust. At least, that the way it is with my Coleman Powermate
5000 Watt (Subaru Robin engine). I rigged up a length of flexible
exhaust pipe and a decent muffler, and absolutely could not discern
any difference in the noise level. The noise mainly comes from the
vibration of the whole machine. And yes, it's loud, though my
neighbor says he doesn't notice it. (I had it running for 3 days
continuously after a bad storm.)

--
Bob Nichols AT comcast.net I am "RNichols42"

On 2016-01-20, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Wed, 20 Jan 2016 08:48:09 -0600, Robert Nichols
wrote:

On 01/19/2016 04:44 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
I took a chance on the HF 2200W inverter generator #61169, $399.99
with a coupon. Hopefully it will be unnoticeably quiet from the street
under my usual wintertime load of less than 200W and able to run the
A/C or microwave if we have a summer hurricane outage.

Good luck trying to start an A/C with that little inverter generator.
I also see no mention that the output is true sine wave, so some
computer power supplies might not be happy with the output waveform.

I'm curious about that. I've never investigated those power supplies,
but I thought that the output from battery batckup, like my APC, was
square wave or something jagged, anyway. I've never put a 'scope on
mine but have thought about doing it.

Anyway, for anyone experienced with these power supplies, what's the
story?

To my mind, an inverter generator uses PWM (Pulse With
Modulation) -- starting out with narrow pulses to approximate the power
at a low point on the sine wave, then a bit later a slightly wider pulse
(and narrower gap between the pulses) until for the maximum point on the
sine wave, a fairly wide pulse before it starts getting narrower again.
As it crosses zero voltage, the pulses become negative pulses (but go
through a similar narrow to wider to narrow sequence.

This approximates the sine wave in a resistive load, and
generates lots of electrical noise in nearby AM radios. :-)

This is quite similar to how a VFD works, except that there are
three of the outputs at the same time.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | (KV4PH) Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On Wed, 20 Jan 2016 20:39:13 -0500, BQ340
wrote:

On 1/20/2016 7:50 PM, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Wed, 20 Jan 2016 18:18:29 -0500, wrote:

On Wed, 20 Jan 2016 09:59:36 -0500, Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Wed, 20 Jan 2016 08:48:09 -0600, Robert Nichols
wrote:

On 01/19/2016 04:44 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
I took a chance on the HF 2200W inverter generator #61169, $399.99
with a coupon. Hopefully it will be unnoticeably quiet from the street
under my usual wintertime load of less than 200W and able to run the
A/C or microwave if we have a summer hurricane outage.

Good luck trying to start an A/C with that little inverter generator.
I also see no mention that the output is true sine wave, so some
computer power supplies might not be happy with the output waveform.

I'm curious about that. I've never investigated those power supplies,
but I thought that the output from battery batckup, like my APC, was
square wave or something jagged, anyway. I've never put a 'scope on
mine but have thought about doing it.

Anyway, for anyone experienced with these power supplies, what's the
story?
Switch mode power supplies are pretty well power quality agnostic
these days, as long as there are no large spikes. They run just fine
on modified sine wave (AKA stepped ) or quasi-sine wave units and
don't seem to be bothered by the cheap square wave units either.
Square wave MOGHT reduce lifespan - but they still work.

This is interesting. I finally took the time to look up some waveforms
and so on. I see that the answer to my question isn't necessarily
simple.

I would think there would be some inexpensive active filters to smooth
those outputs into something very close to a sine wave. But I've never
dealt with any kind of filters at 60 Hz, so maybe there are some
limitations of which I'm not aware.


Constant voltage transformers are cheap on the surplus market

MikeB
And HORRIFICALLY inefficient