Bruce L. Bergman wrote:

On Sun, 19 Feb 2006 03:00:34 -0500, "J. Clarke"
wrote:
~Roy~ wrote:

No luck about it. Toyota is a quality made vehicle.

Yup, that it is. LOW quality.

When you say water
leaks are inmaterial, well in your opinion perhaps, but when its
numerous times and its eroding internals like the bearins etc due to
coolant and oils getting mixed and the bearings eroded, it matter not
if an engine throws a rod or screws up a crank and lots of other stuff
in the process...due to plastic manifolds and water leaks..........

A water leak doesn't leave you stranded by the side of the road at 2 AM in
a
blizzard. At least not unless you're a real idiot.

Let's see, now we're getting an actual fact - 2 AM in a blizzard...
You didn't happen to be stuck in the snow at the time and zinged the
engine trying to get unstuck, did you? And then you put in a new
engine, did it again, and didn't make the connection?

Uh, what part of "driving 35 miles an hour" did you not understand? You are
also assuming a variety of facts not in evidence.

Next time try a snow shovel first, so you can get a running start.

Taking /ANY/ 6K RPM Redline engine up to 10K or 12K will tend to
throw rods through the block - be it Toyota or Chevy. Having your
foot to the floor with the engine in gear and shifting into neutral to
rock the car, the overspeed fuel cut in the EFI can't react that fast.

Well, all of that is very interesting, but it is really raising a strawman,
since the events in question did not occur in conditions that even slightly
resembled your scenario, and specifically the description of the
circumstances surrounding the thrown rod would preclude that situation.

Either that, or you're a UAW Troll. (Buy American!) Yeah, and
watch it depreciate twice as fast...

Or maybe Toyotas are just crap?

Why are you so upset at the notion that Toyotas are poorly made? Are you a
Toyota salesman, or one of those morons who develops a close personal
attachment to a very ordinary car, or what?

If you want to drive a Toyota be my guest. But don't come crying to me when
it blows up on you.

--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

~Roy~ wrote:

Could not say it better myself Bruce.......

Then your verbal skills need a lot of work.

--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Same experience with a Camry, bought new. Engine bearings and oil
pump shot at 55,000 miles and a transmission failure at 81,000.

My Fords and GM's would nickle and dime you, but I NEVER spent more
than a few hundred on repairs, not like the thousands on the Toy.

"Oh What a Feeling"

John Normile

On Sat, 18 Feb 2006 10:33:41 -0500, "J. Clarke"
wrote:
ROF,L. I got a Toyota once. It only needed one scheduled maintenance
item--every 10,000 miles you replaced the engine. First time the (Toyota
OEM) oil filter blew up and it wiped the bearings before I could get it
stopped. Second time it threw a rod driving down the road at 35 mph.
Third time I didn't even look, just donated the remains to the local high
school shop and got an ironblock Chevy that never gave me any grief at all.

"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 19 Feb 2006 03:00:34 -0500, "J. Clarke"

Taking /ANY/ 6K RPM Redline engine up to 10K or 12K will tend to
throw rods through the block - be it Toyota or Chevy. Having your
foot to the floor with the engine in gear and shifting into neutral to
rock the car, the overspeed fuel cut in the EFI can't react that fast.

Either that, or you're a UAW Troll. (Buy American!) Yeah, and
watch it depreciate twice as fast...


I have noticed, and so has my unhappy neighbor that is driving jap made
junk, that while the engines seem to have few problems, when they do, you're
getting off cheaper to dump it in the recycle bin and buy a new one. As per
neighbor's honda****, normal driving day to work and the car didn't make it,
cam is gone, cheaper to get another car than fix that one. His S-10 is
running nicely though. Hmmm. Seems jap cars aren't designed to be fixed,
just replaced at your cost. "Superior oriental engineering." Worse than
planned obsolescense.

Rich

John Normile wrote:

Same experience with a Camry, bought new. Engine bearings and oil
pump shot at 55,000 miles and a transmission failure at 81,000.

My Fords and GM's would nickle and dime you, but I NEVER spent more
than a few hundred on repairs, not like the thousands on the Toy.

Yup. Same here. Had two Japanese vehicles, never want another. Shame,
while they're running they seem to be really nice.

"Oh What a Feeling"

John Normile

On Sat, 18 Feb 2006 10:33:41 -0500, "J. Clarke"
wrote:
ROF,L. I got a Toyota once. It only needed one scheduled maintenance
item--every 10,000 miles you replaced the engine. First time the (Toyota
OEM) oil filter blew up and it wiped the bearings before I could get it
stopped. Second time it threw a rod driving down the road at 35 mph.
Third time I didn't even look, just donated the remains to the local high
school shop and got an ironblock Chevy that never gave me any grief at
all.

--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

On Sat, 18 Feb 2006 17:21:48 -0500, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

clare at snyder.on.ca wrote:

On Sat, 18 Feb 2006 10:33:41 -0500, "J. Clarke"
wrote:


ROF,L. I got a Toyota once. It only needed one scheduled maintenance
item--every 10,000 miles you replaced the engine. First time the (Toyota
OEM) oil filter blew up and it wiped the bearings before I could get it
stopped. Second time it threw a rod driving down the road at 35 mph.
Third time I didn't even look, just donated the remains to the local high
school shop and got an ironblock Chevy that never gave me any grief at
all.

Never gonna sucker _me_ with that "Toyotas are reliable" crap again.

Year and model please? Which engine?

Actually, there were 2, the 4M and 4Mge

'83 Supra, only engine it came with.

Never saw a Toyota OEM filter blow up - but I have seen mechanics and
DIYers leave the gasket from the old filter on and put on a new
filter.

Filter was split wide open. Gasket was fine.

Did the double-gasket thing on a Volvo once when I was 19--when I realized
what had happened I pulled the filter, pulled the excess gasket, put the
filter back it back, drove to the nearest gas station, topped up the oil,
80,000 miles later when I sold it it was still running fine.

Guaranteed to let go -(even on a Ford or GM).
The second and third failures were in all likelihood due to improper
repairs from the first one. Can't blame Toyota for that!!

When a Toyota-provided short block throws a rod it's kind of hard to blame
anybody but Toyota for it.
Or the mechanic who installed it. In 10 years as Toyota dealer Service
Manager I NEVER saw a Toyota filter split, and never saw a 4M throw a
rod. I saw one or 2 camshaft problems on 4MGEs (using 5W30 oil) and
timing chains (ditto). Never saw ANY Toyota engine throw a rod except
from lack of oil. (filter gasket problem at lub shop, hole in oil pan
from road debris and "terminal neglect")

Toyota USA may have used a different "locally supplied" OEM
replacement filter than Canada did (Dana/Wix).


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greybeard wrote:
"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote in message
...

On Sun, 19 Feb 2006 03:00:34 -0500, "J. Clarke"

Taking /ANY/ 6K RPM Redline engine up to 10K or 12K will tend to
throw rods through the block - be it Toyota or Chevy. Having your
foot to the floor with the engine in gear and shifting into neutral to
rock the car, the overspeed fuel cut in the EFI can't react that fast.

Either that, or you're a UAW Troll. (Buy American!) Yeah, and
watch it depreciate twice as fast...



I have noticed, and so has my unhappy neighbor that is driving jap made
junk, that while the engines seem to have few problems, when they do, you're
getting off cheaper to dump it in the recycle bin and buy a new one. As per
neighbor's honda****, normal driving day to work and the car didn't make it,
cam is gone, cheaper to get another car than fix that one. His S-10 is
running nicely though. Hmmm. Seems jap cars aren't designed to be fixed,
just replaced at your cost. "Superior oriental engineering." Worse than
planned obsolescense.

And that's better than Ford transmissions
that last 45,000 miles? No thanks. I'll
take my chances with my subaru. 120,000
miles so far with no problems of note.

clare at snyder.on.ca wrote:

On Sat, 18 Feb 2006 17:21:48 -0500, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

clare at snyder.on.ca wrote:

On Sat, 18 Feb 2006 10:33:41 -0500, "J. Clarke"
wrote:


ROF,L. I got a Toyota once. It only needed one scheduled maintenance
item--every 10,000 miles you replaced the engine. First time the
(Toyota OEM) oil filter blew up and it wiped the bearings before I could
get it
stopped. Second time it threw a rod driving down the road at 35 mph.
Third time I didn't even look, just donated the remains to the local
high school shop and got an ironblock Chevy that never gave me any grief
at all.

Never gonna sucker _me_ with that "Toyotas are reliable" crap again.

Year and model please? Which engine?

Actually, there were 2, the 4M and 4Mge

'83 Supra, only engine it came with.

Never saw a Toyota OEM filter blow up - but I have seen mechanics and
DIYers leave the gasket from the old filter on and put on a new
filter.

Filter was split wide open. Gasket was fine.

Did the double-gasket thing on a Volvo once when I was 19--when I realized
what had happened I pulled the filter, pulled the excess gasket, put the
filter back it back, drove to the nearest gas station, topped up the oil,
80,000 miles later when I sold it it was still running fine.

Guaranteed to let go -(even on a Ford or GM).
The second and third failures were in all likelihood due to improper
repairs from the first one. Can't blame Toyota for that!!

When a Toyota-provided short block throws a rod it's kind of hard to blame
anybody but Toyota for it.
Or the mechanic who installed it. In 10 years as Toyota dealer Service
Manager I NEVER saw a Toyota filter split,

Lucky you. If it's that easy to screw up installing an oil filter the
engine is crap.

and never saw a 4M throw a
rod.

Well, then perhaps you can explain to me why there was a hole in the side of
the block with a connecting rod sticking out of it. Maybe The Flash and
Superman were playing a joke on me?

I saw one or 2 camshaft problems on 4MGEs (using 5W30 oil) and
timing chains (ditto). Never saw ANY Toyota engine throw a rod except
from lack of oil. (filter gasket problem at lub shop, hole in oil pan
from road debris and "terminal neglect")

Sounds kind of fragile to me.

Toyota USA may have used a different "locally supplied" OEM
replacement filter than Canada did (Dana/Wix).

Still Toyota's problem.

Damned things are unbelievably fragile.


--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

In article , greybeard
wrote:

"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 19 Feb 2006 03:00:34 -0500, "J. Clarke"

Taking /ANY/ 6K RPM Redline engine up to 10K or 12K will tend to
throw rods through the block - be it Toyota or Chevy. Having your
foot to the floor with the engine in gear and shifting into neutral to
rock the car, the overspeed fuel cut in the EFI can't react that fast.

Either that, or you're a UAW Troll. (Buy American!) Yeah, and
watch it depreciate twice as fast...


I have noticed, and so has my unhappy neighbor that is driving jap made
junk, that while the engines seem to have few problems, when they do, you're
getting off cheaper to dump it in the recycle bin and buy a new one. As per
neighbor's honda****, normal driving day to work and the car didn't make it,
cam is gone, cheaper to get another car than fix that one. His S-10 is
running nicely though. Hmmm. Seems jap cars aren't designed to be fixed,
just replaced at your cost. "Superior oriental engineering." Worse than
planned obsolescense.

Ah. That would explain the 290,000 on my Mitsubishi pickup, and the
226,000 on my Subaru AWD sedan. The Mits has had one clutch and a head
job, the Subaru one clutch and a set of front CV joints. No other mech
work other than routine maint.

There's a reason Japanese vehicles dominate the market, and it isn't
just purchase price.

PDW

Peter Wiley wrote:

In article , greybeard
wrote:

"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 19 Feb 2006 03:00:34 -0500, "J. Clarke"

Taking /ANY/ 6K RPM Redline engine up to 10K or 12K will tend to
throw rods through the block - be it Toyota or Chevy. Having your
foot to the floor with the engine in gear and shifting into neutral to
rock the car, the overspeed fuel cut in the EFI can't react that fast.

Either that, or you're a UAW Troll. (Buy American!) Yeah, and
watch it depreciate twice as fast...


I have noticed, and so has my unhappy neighbor that is driving jap made
junk, that while the engines seem to have few problems, when they do,
you're
getting off cheaper to dump it in the recycle bin and buy a new one. As
per neighbor's honda****, normal driving day to work and the car didn't
make it,
cam is gone, cheaper to get another car than fix that one. His S-10 is
running nicely though. Hmmm. Seems jap cars aren't designed to be
fixed,
just replaced at your cost. "Superior oriental engineering." Worse than
planned obsolescense.

Ah. That would explain the 290,000 on my Mitsubishi pickup, and the
226,000 on my Subaru AWD sedan. The Mits has had one clutch and a head
job, the Subaru one clutch and a set of front CV joints. No other mech
work other than routine maint.

There's a reason Japanese vehicles dominate the market, and it isn't
just purchase price.

They make a very good first impression. Then people stick to them no matter
how bad it gets, just like a battered spouse.

--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

In article ,
"J. Clarke" wrote:

They make a very good first impression. Then people stick to them no matter
how bad it gets, just like a battered spouse.

Dunno about "first impressions", since my first nip-mobile was about as
ugly as a bucket full of assholes, but ran like a top for years until I
finally blew it up.

Current jap car is going strong with 180K on the clock, and by all
indications, will go for another 180K unless it gets clobbered (like its
previous incarnation did) by another American-made oversized,
overpriced, soccer-mom-with-more-cash-than-brains targeted pile of crap
with a three-year planned obsolescence cycle.

--
Don Bruder - - If your "From:" address isn't on my whitelist,
or the subject of the message doesn't contain the exact text "PopperAndShadow"
somewhere, any message sent to this address will go in the garbage without my
ever knowing it arrived. Sorry... http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd for more info

There's a reason Japanese vehicles dominate the market, and it isn't
just purchase price.

They make a very good first impression. Then people stick to them no matter
how bad it gets, just like a battered spouse.

I'm in the market to replace my 13 year old Toyota pickup. Has
something changed? The pickup has 148,000 miles on it and runs well,
but with that mileage it's beginning to nickel and dime us. We also
have two Subarus and they both run well and are holding up well from a
body standpoint. The summaries at Consumer Reports still show Toyotas
holding up better than most American vehicles.

RWL

"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
. ..
In article , greybeard
wrote:

"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 19 Feb 2006 03:00:34 -0500, "J. Clarke"
Ah. That would explain the 290,000 on my Mitsubishi pickup, and the
226,000 on my Subaru AWD sedan. The Mits has had one clutch and a head
job, the Subaru one clutch and a set of front CV joints. No other mech
work other than routine maint.

Ah, yes. Admiral Mitchler was also fond of mitu****i products, his exact
praise,

"Jap planes still burn very well."


There's a reason Japanese vehicles dominate the market, and it isn't
just purchase price.

Highly paid, lying, ratfaced admen, that's why. I"ve looked at them, driven
a couple, they all feel like recycled beer cans that have been thinned down.
They won't get any of my money. I don't buy jap crap, and I don't buy from
walmart, who has the distinction of the worst violator of labor law in the
US history. Quite an honor for them.

Rich

"RWL" wrote in message
...

There's a reason Japanese vehicles dominate the market, and it isn't
just purchase price.

They make a very good first impression. Then people stick to them no
matter
how bad it gets, just like a battered spouse.

I'm in the market to replace my 13 year old Toyota pickup. Has
something changed? The pickup has 148,000 miles on it and runs well,
but with that mileage it's beginning to nickel and dime us. We also
have two Subarus and they both run well and are holding up well from a
body standpoint. The summaries at Consumer Reports still show Toyotas
holding up better than most American vehicles.

Won't make any difference in a few more years anyhow, there won't be any US
automakers left, only foreign companies that buy them for "name
recognition.", then see that they die in another year. Full speed ahead,
charlie. Damn the torpedoes. continue to buy and drive your tin can
deathtraps. Or move to Japland if you love them so muich.

Rich.

greybeard wrote:
"Jim Stewart" wrote in message
...

And that's better than Ford transmissions
that last 45,000 miles? No thanks. I'll
take my chances with my subaru. 120,000
miles so far with no problems of no problems


And when it's your job that is sent to the orient next, don't bother whining
about it. You'll get no sympathy from me, just the same "tough ****" you
seem to have for everyone else. If you think your smelly sub can outdo the
41 packard that was my second car, you're halfway to the point when I bought
the Packard. My 91 S-10 has been in the garage exactly once in the thirteen
years I've owned it. japcrap does good to make thirteen weeks.

So I should just suck it up and drive a
car whose transmission dies in 45k miles?
Paid my dues there, twice.

I don't have a *job*, I have a company,
a company that actually makes things,
and actually *exports* about 40% of what
it makes. So, balance-of-tradewise, I
think I earned the right to drive a Subaru.

BTW, your 91 S-10 isn't giving anyone a
job. Why not live your words and trade it
in on a new model?

In article , J. Clarke
wrote:

Peter Wiley wrote:

In article , greybeard
wrote:

"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 19 Feb 2006 03:00:34 -0500, "J. Clarke"

Taking /ANY/ 6K RPM Redline engine up to 10K or 12K will tend to
throw rods through the block - be it Toyota or Chevy. Having your
foot to the floor with the engine in gear and shifting into neutral to
rock the car, the overspeed fuel cut in the EFI can't react that fast.

Either that, or you're a UAW Troll. (Buy American!) Yeah, and
watch it depreciate twice as fast...


I have noticed, and so has my unhappy neighbor that is driving jap made
junk, that while the engines seem to have few problems, when they do,
you're
getting off cheaper to dump it in the recycle bin and buy a new one. As
per neighbor's honda****, normal driving day to work and the car didn't
make it,
cam is gone, cheaper to get another car than fix that one. His S-10 is
running nicely though. Hmmm. Seems jap cars aren't designed to be
fixed,
just replaced at your cost. "Superior oriental engineering." Worse than
planned obsolescense.

Ah. That would explain the 290,000 on my Mitsubishi pickup, and the
226,000 on my Subaru AWD sedan. The Mits has had one clutch and a head
job, the Subaru one clutch and a set of front CV joints. No other mech
work other than routine maint.

There's a reason Japanese vehicles dominate the market, and it isn't
just purchase price.

They make a very good first impression. Then people stick to them no matter
how bad it gets, just like a battered spouse.

Lessee, the Mits I bought new in 1982. That makes 23 years of a good
first impression. The Subaru I bought new in 1991, that makes 14 years
of good first impression. I *know* the history of those cars.

Not to mention the 1970 Datsun 1600 I had. Bought used with 60K on the
clock, sold with 65K on the clock after I did just over 100K on it. 2
clutches, one fuel pump. No other mech issues. Never even had the head
off. Sold it to the first person fr $100 more than I'd paid for it.

Over those years, just how much percent share of the auto market has
the US makers lost?

I admire your thinking.

PDW

In article , greybeard
wrote:

"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
. ..
In article , greybeard
wrote:

"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 19 Feb 2006 03:00:34 -0500, "J. Clarke"
Ah. That would explain the 290,000 on my Mitsubishi pickup, and the
226,000 on my Subaru AWD sedan. The Mits has had one clutch and a head
job, the Subaru one clutch and a set of front CV joints. No other mech
work other than routine maint.

Ah, yes. Admiral Mitchler was also fond of mitu****i products, his exact
praise,

"Jap planes still burn very well."


There's a reason Japanese vehicles dominate the market, and it isn't
just purchase price.

Highly paid, lying, ratfaced admen, that's why.

Ah. I see. It was those admen that made 2 autos that I've driven those
distances.

Lucky for you that Mitsubishi and Fuji don't have engineers building
vehicles isn't it?

I"ve looked at them, driven
a couple, they all feel like recycled beer cans that have been thinned down.

I note you're moving from discussing engineering quality to
'touchy-feely' stuff. Wonder why that is?

As for crap autos, leaving aside history, who built the Dodge Neon?
What a heap of junk, you could do 80+ on the interstate or you could
run the aircon but not both at the same time. Lucky for me is was a
hire-car. I swapped it for a Nissan Maxima.

They won't get any of my money. I don't buy jap crap, and I don't buy from
walmart, who has the distinction of the worst violator of labor law in the
US history. Quite an honor for them.

Ah. I see. There's another word for people like you. 'Sucker'. The
Japanese did indeed make crap autos. In the 60's. Then they made ok
autos. Then they made good autos. Now they make outstanding autos, from
the POV of reliability, efficiency and longevity.

Meanwhile, GM, Ford, Chrysler etc keep on making the same turgid
mediocre crap that they've been doing all along, while bitching about
the competition and how unfair it is that someone else can do it
better.

Bwahahahahahahahahahahaha.

PDW

On Sun, 19 Feb 2006 16:13:40 -0500, clare at snyder.on.ca wrote:


When a Toyota-provided short block throws a rod it's kind of hard to blame
anybody but Toyota for it.
Or the mechanic who installed it. In 10 years as Toyota dealer Service
Manager I NEVER saw a Toyota filter split, and never saw a 4M throw a
rod. I saw one or 2 camshaft problems on 4MGEs (using 5W30 oil) and
timing chains (ditto). Never saw ANY Toyota engine throw a rod except
from lack of oil. (filter gasket problem at lub shop, hole in oil pan
from road debris and "terminal neglect")

Toyota USA may have used a different "locally supplied" OEM
replacement filter than Canada did (Dana/Wix).

Locally here in California..I know of at least 10 R22 engines running
strong with at least 250,000 miles on the clock

Gunner



"A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them;
the simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences."
- Proverbs 22:3

"Jim Stewart" wrote in message
. ..

So I should just suck it up and drive a
car whose transmission dies in 45k miles?
Paid my dues there, twice.

I have had exactly one ford in all my years, won't have another one but
won't buy japcrap.

I don't have a *job*, I have a company,
a company that actually makes things,
and actually *exports* about 40% of what
it makes. So, balance-of-tradewise, I
think I earned the right to drive a Subaru.

And you sell your domestic market down the river? Brainboy! If I ain't got
the bucks, what ever little gidget you make, I ain't buying it. IMpossible
to understand? You have the right to drive any damn thing you want to, also
I have the right, when your domestic market dies, to not listen to you
whine.

BTW, your 91 S-10 isn't giving anyone a
job. Why not live your words and trade it
in on a new model?

It's paid for, it runs good, gets good mileage. It's old, GM tried to
emulate the jap paint process, the paint is peeling, but it RELIABLY gets me
where I have to be and brings me back again. IT also doesn't feel like it's
trying to bend in the middle every time I make a turn. You got any reason I
should go into car payments again, I've had twelve years without one, any
excuse you come up with better be good. I don't worry about keeping an
"image", an image is just that, it says exactly nothing about the person.
More crudheads drive luxury cars than anything else, but their "image" looks
good to other crudheads. Fooling someone with common sense isn't so easy.

jap "quality" is also just an image. Turn the lights off and it ain't
there.

Rich.

On Mon, 20 Feb 2006 06:25:09 -0600, "greybeard"
wrote:


Meanwhile, GM, Ford, Chrysler etc keep on making the same turgid
mediocre crap that they've been doing all along, while bitching about
the competition and how unfair it is that someone else can do it
better.

US automakers have for many years provided AFFORDABLE vehicles to the
American public that were acceptable quality.

Like the Pinto and the Gremlin?

Gunner



"A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them;
the simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences."
- Proverbs 22:3

On Sun, 19 Feb 2006 21:05:19 -0600, "greybeard"
wrote:


"Jim Stewart" wrote in message
...

And that's better than Ford transmissions
that last 45,000 miles? No thanks. I'll
take my chances with my subaru. 120,000
miles so far with no problems of note.

And when it's your job that is sent to the orient next, don't bother whining
about it. You'll get no sympathy from me, just the same "tough ****" you
seem to have for everyone else. If you think your smelly sub can outdo the
41 packard that was my second car, you're halfway to the point when I bought
the Packard. My 91 S-10 has been in the garage exactly once in the thirteen
years I've owned it. japcrap does good to make thirteen weeks.

Rich

Only thing is, it's my nieghbours building the Hondas and Toyotas. And
the "Suzuki" GMs from CAMI.Not the Mexicans building the Neons and
Durangos
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On Sun, 19 Feb 2006 23:44:16 +0000, Peter Wiley
wrote:

In article , greybeard
wrote:

"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 19 Feb 2006 03:00:34 -0500, "J. Clarke"

Taking /ANY/ 6K RPM Redline engine up to 10K or 12K will tend to
throw rods through the block - be it Toyota or Chevy. Having your
foot to the floor with the engine in gear and shifting into neutral to
rock the car, the overspeed fuel cut in the EFI can't react that fast.

Either that, or you're a UAW Troll. (Buy American!) Yeah, and
watch it depreciate twice as fast...


I have noticed, and so has my unhappy neighbor that is driving jap made
junk, that while the engines seem to have few problems, when they do, you're
getting off cheaper to dump it in the recycle bin and buy a new one. As per
neighbor's honda****, normal driving day to work and the car didn't make it,
cam is gone, cheaper to get another car than fix that one. His S-10 is
running nicely though. Hmmm. Seems jap cars aren't designed to be fixed,
just replaced at your cost. "Superior oriental engineering." Worse than
planned obsolescense.

Ah. That would explain the 290,000 on my Mitsubishi pickup, and the
226,000 on my Subaru AWD sedan. The Mits has had one clutch and a head
job, the Subaru one clutch and a set of front CV joints. No other mech
work other than routine maint.

There's a reason Japanese vehicles dominate the market, and it isn't
just purchase price.

PDW
You can take the "just" out .
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On Mon, 20 Feb 2006 06:25:09 -0600, "greybeard"
wrote:


"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
...

I note you're moving from discussing engineering quality to
'touchy-feely' stuff. Wonder why that is?

When the body rots out very quickly, and I have seen many pieces of japcrap
with big holes rotted in them in less than five years, if you consider this
to be quality, please sell whatever you make to someone else, I don't want
it.

Never owned a mid seventies Ford, I see. Two years was doing good.

As for crap autos, leaving aside history, who built the Dodge Neon?
What a heap of junk, you could do 80+ on the interstate or you could
run the aircon but not both at the same time. Lucky for me is was a
hire-car. I swapped it for a Nissan Maxima.

Hmmm. 12k neon vs 30k jap suicide machine. nice comparison. Speed limit
here on the freeway is 70, don't know where you are, but please don't come
here. Poor drivers do get tickets in Wisconsin. Out of staters have to pay
before they can leave the patrol station.

Now they make outstanding autos, from
the POV of reliability, efficiency and longevity.

Some people are easily fooled.

Meanwhile, GM, Ford, Chrysler etc keep on making the same turgid
mediocre crap that they've been doing all along, while bitching about
the competition and how unfair it is that someone else can do it
better.

US automakers have for many years provided AFFORDABLE vehicles to the
American public that were acceptable quality. The nips decided they
couldn't get into that market, they make the same quality for much higher
prices and call them "luxury". However, I wouldn't complain at all if you
decided to take your whole family to japland and become jap. Then you too
can have your fishheads and rice every day.

Rich. (Who hates all things jap.)


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On Sun, 19 Feb 2006 18:37:14 -0500, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

clare at snyder.on.ca wrote:

On Sat, 18 Feb 2006 17:21:48 -0500, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

clare at snyder.on.ca wrote:

On Sat, 18 Feb 2006 10:33:41 -0500, "J. Clarke"
wrote:


ROF,L. I got a Toyota once. It only needed one scheduled maintenance
item--every 10,000 miles you replaced the engine. First time the
(Toyota OEM) oil filter blew up and it wiped the bearings before I could
get it
stopped. Second time it threw a rod driving down the road at 35 mph.
Third time I didn't even look, just donated the remains to the local
high school shop and got an ironblock Chevy that never gave me any grief
at all.

Never gonna sucker _me_ with that "Toyotas are reliable" crap again.

Year and model please? Which engine?

Actually, there were 2, the 4M and 4Mge

'83 Supra, only engine it came with.

Never saw a Toyota OEM filter blow up - but I have seen mechanics and
DIYers leave the gasket from the old filter on and put on a new
filter.

Filter was split wide open. Gasket was fine.

Did the double-gasket thing on a Volvo once when I was 19--when I realized
what had happened I pulled the filter, pulled the excess gasket, put the
filter back it back, drove to the nearest gas station, topped up the oil,
80,000 miles later when I sold it it was still running fine.

Guaranteed to let go -(even on a Ford or GM).
The second and third failures were in all likelihood due to improper
repairs from the first one. Can't blame Toyota for that!!

When a Toyota-provided short block throws a rod it's kind of hard to blame
anybody but Toyota for it.
Or the mechanic who installed it. In 10 years as Toyota dealer Service
Manager I NEVER saw a Toyota filter split,

Lucky you. If it's that easy to screw up installing an oil filter the
engine is crap.

and never saw a 4M throw a
rod.

Well, then perhaps you can explain to me why there was a hole in the side of
the block with a connecting rod sticking out of it. Maybe The Flash and
Superman were playing a joke on me?

I saw one or 2 camshaft problems on 4MGEs (using 5W30 oil) and
timing chains (ditto). Never saw ANY Toyota engine throw a rod except
from lack of oil. (filter gasket problem at lub shop, hole in oil pan
from road debris and "terminal neglect")

Sounds kind of fragile to me.
I serviced over 600 Toyotas a year for 10 years - average 4 visits
per year (oil changes) plus the required repairs - the only weakness I
would fault them for was their brakes - but ALL manufacturers have had
that problem, thanks to DOE mandates.

Toyota USA may have used a different "locally supplied" OEM
replacement filter than Canada did (Dana/Wix).

Still Toyota's problem.

Damned things are unbelievably fragile.

Actually, from my experience, EXTREMELY durable. When you can get over
400,000km out of the low end tercel with no mechanical failures, one
clutch change, 2 timing belts and a set of axle joints, I have no
complaints. Or 600,000 on a '91 Civic VX with only a pair of front
axle bearings, a distributor, and an alternator bearing. AC still
works, and still has the original belt on it. Can't call that fragile,
the way that car gets driven.

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On Mon, 20 Feb 2006 09:12:57 GMT, Gunner
wrote:

On Sun, 19 Feb 2006 16:13:40 -0500, clare at snyder.on.ca wrote:


When a Toyota-provided short block throws a rod it's kind of hard to blame
anybody but Toyota for it.
Or the mechanic who installed it. In 10 years as Toyota dealer Service
Manager I NEVER saw a Toyota filter split, and never saw a 4M throw a
rod. I saw one or 2 camshaft problems on 4MGEs (using 5W30 oil) and
timing chains (ditto). Never saw ANY Toyota engine throw a rod except
from lack of oil. (filter gasket problem at lub shop, hole in oil pan
from road debris and "terminal neglect")

Toyota USA may have used a different "locally supplied" OEM
replacement filter than Canada did (Dana/Wix).

Locally here in California..I know of at least 10 R22 engines running
strong with at least 250,000 miles on the clock

Gunner


A 22R isn't broken in before 150,000.


"A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them;
the simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences."
- Proverbs 22:3

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clare at snyder.on.ca wrote in message
...

US automakers have for many years provided AFFORDABLE vehicles to the
American public that were acceptable quality. The nips decided they
couldn't get into that market, they make the same quality for much higher
prices and call them "luxury". However, I wouldn't complain at all if
you
decided to take your whole family to japland and become jap. Then you
too
can have your fishheads and rice every day.

The Japanese builders were forced to move upmarket because of the
"voluntary" trade agreements of the 1980s, imposed on them by the US. They
had no choice.

That's one of the two reasons they started building cars in the US, too. The
other was that it was becoming clear that offshore manufacturing was a smart
move for them all the way around.

Rich. (Who hates all things jap.)

I'll bet you loved the "Chevy and apple pie" commercials they were running a
few years ago. The apple pie is good, but it didn't help the cars very much.

--
Ed Huntress

clare at snyder.on.ca wrote:

On Sun, 19 Feb 2006 18:37:14 -0500, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

clare at snyder.on.ca wrote:

On Sat, 18 Feb 2006 17:21:48 -0500, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

clare at snyder.on.ca wrote:

On Sat, 18 Feb 2006 10:33:41 -0500, "J. Clarke"
wrote:


ROF,L. I got a Toyota once. It only needed one scheduled maintenance
item--every 10,000 miles you replaced the engine. First time the
(Toyota OEM) oil filter blew up and it wiped the bearings before I
could get it
stopped. Second time it threw a rod driving down the road at 35 mph.
Third time I didn't even look, just donated the remains to the local
high school shop and got an ironblock Chevy that never gave me any
grief at all.

Never gonna sucker _me_ with that "Toyotas are reliable" crap again.

Year and model please? Which engine?

Actually, there were 2, the 4M and 4Mge

'83 Supra, only engine it came with.

Never saw a Toyota OEM filter blow up - but I have seen mechanics and
DIYers leave the gasket from the old filter on and put on a new
filter.

Filter was split wide open. Gasket was fine.

Did the double-gasket thing on a Volvo once when I was 19--when I
realized what had happened I pulled the filter, pulled the excess
gasket, put the filter back it back, drove to the nearest gas station,
topped up the oil, 80,000 miles later when I sold it it was still
running fine.

Guaranteed to let go -(even on a Ford or GM).
The second and third failures were in all likelihood due to improper
repairs from the first one. Can't blame Toyota for that!!

When a Toyota-provided short block throws a rod it's kind of hard to
blame anybody but Toyota for it.
Or the mechanic who installed it. In 10 years as Toyota dealer Service
Manager I NEVER saw a Toyota filter split,

Lucky you. If it's that easy to screw up installing an oil filter the
engine is crap.

and never saw a 4M throw a
rod.

Well, then perhaps you can explain to me why there was a hole in the side
of
the block with a connecting rod sticking out of it. Maybe The Flash and
Superman were playing a joke on me?

I saw one or 2 camshaft problems on 4MGEs (using 5W30 oil) and
timing chains (ditto). Never saw ANY Toyota engine throw a rod except
from lack of oil. (filter gasket problem at lub shop, hole in oil pan
from road debris and "terminal neglect")

Sounds kind of fragile to me.
I serviced over 600 Toyotas a year for 10 years - average 4 visits
per year (oil changes) plus the required repairs - the only weakness I
would fault them for was their brakes - but ALL manufacturers have had
that problem, thanks to DOE mandates.

I don't recall any brake problems with any car that I've owned--my Dad's
pickup truck needed a new brake line once but it was 20 years old and he
snagged it on a stump.

Toyota USA may have used a different "locally supplied" OEM
replacement filter than Canada did (Dana/Wix).

Still Toyota's problem.

Damned things are unbelievably fragile.

Actually, from my experience, EXTREMELY durable. When you can get over
400,000km out of the low end tercel with no mechanical failures, one
clutch change, 2 timing belts and a set of axle joints, I have no
complaints. Or 600,000 on a '91 Civic VX with only a pair of front
axle bearings, a distributor, and an alternator bearing. AC still
works, and still has the original belt on it. Can't call that fragile,
the way that car gets driven.

Everybody gets lucky once in a while.


--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Peter Wiley wrote:


GM & Ford are doing the same thing. The Japanese manufacturere can make
autos in the USA to high quality standards, at better prices than GM &
Ford.
IN some cases, those come off of the exact same assembly line(s).
I know of one line (NUMMI Fremont) that does that. Must be some magic
stick that they whack the Jap branded ones with to reduce the quality,
as compared to the GM ones.

That means it isn't cheap raw materials, it isn't cheap labor and
it isn't transfer pricing (dumping). They simply are better at the
business.


PDW

jk

greybeard wrote:
"Jim Stewart" wrote in message
. ..


So I should just suck it up and drive a
car whose transmission dies in 45k miles?
Paid my dues there, twice.


I have had exactly one ford in all my years, won't have another one but
won't buy japcrap.

I don't have a *job*, I have a company,
a company that actually makes things,
and actually *exports* about 40% of what
it makes. So, balance-of-tradewise, I
think I earned the right to drive a Subaru.


And you sell your domestic market down the river? Brainboy! If I ain't got
the bucks, what ever little gidget you make, I ain't buying it. IMpossible
to understand? You have the right to drive any damn thing you want to, also
I have the right, when your domestic market dies, to not listen to you
whine.

But you didn't have any problem buying that HF
MIG welder? Where was it made? Probably China.
Is that ok and Japan not? Coulda saved a job
at Miller or Hobart...

BTW, for my business I only buy made-in-the-US
HP, Fluke or Tektronix test equipment. It's an
easy choice because their equipment is the best.

Show me a US car company that will build me a
AWD station wagon with a 5-speed transmission,
quiet and torquey opposed 4-cylinder engine
that will go 120,000 miles with no more than
scheduled maintainance for $24,000 and I'll
buy it.

clare at snyder.on.ca wrote in message
...

Only thing is, it's my nieghbours building the Hondas and Toyotas. And
the "Suzuki" GMs from CAMI.Not the Mexicans building the Neons and
Durangos

Assembling you mean, any of the high cost parts are made in japland by
jenuine japs. The japs are 110% for the japs, and if it's at our expense,
they think it's all the better. Still doesn't change that fact that the
japcrap is all tinplate, except it would be an insult to good tinplate.

The myth of "japanese quality" is just that, a myth. Toyota, lexus, Yugo,
same difference. Except the price.

And you haven't named any vehicle in that grouping that I'd drive to a
scrapyard, I'd have it trucked from the showroom directly to the scrap
before I'd dirty my hands on the wheel. I don't have a neon or durango, my
S-10 came from Janesville, Wisconsin. My next vehicle, if there is a next
one, will be a Dodge, not a rice burner.

Rich

Gunner wrote:
On Sun, 19 Feb 2006 16:13:40 -0500, clare at snyder.on.ca wrote:


When a Toyota-provided short block throws a rod it's kind of hard to blame
anybody but Toyota for it.
Or the mechanic who installed it. In 10 years as Toyota dealer Service
Manager I NEVER saw a Toyota filter split, and never saw a 4M throw a
rod. I saw one or 2 camshaft problems on 4MGEs (using 5W30 oil) and
timing chains (ditto). Never saw ANY Toyota engine throw a rod except
from lack of oil. (filter gasket problem at lub shop, hole in oil pan
from road debris and "terminal neglect")

Toyota USA may have used a different "locally supplied" OEM
replacement filter than Canada did (Dana/Wix).

Locally here in California..I know of at least 10 R22 engines running
strong with at least 250,000 miles on the clock

My 22R only has @210K, but my mechanic assures me it'll last for a long
time...much to the chagrine of my wife ;-)

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

I'll bet you loved the "Chevy and apple pie" commercials they were running
a
few years ago. The apple pie is good, but it didn't help the cars very
much.

I'm not enraptured with my S-10, but impressed that my total maintenance
costs of the years I've owned it have come to just over $2000, including new
tires. It spends most of it's life behind my garage, I don't drive a lot,
but short trips are probably harder on it than even driving ten miles one
way and back. Most of the time the temp gauge doesn't even come off the peg
and I know that's hard on an engine.

Rich

"greybeard" wrote in message
...

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

I'll bet you loved the "Chevy and apple pie" commercials they were
running
a
few years ago. The apple pie is good, but it didn't help the cars very
much.

I'm not enraptured with my S-10, but impressed that my total maintenance
costs of the years I've owned it have come to just over $2000, including
new
tires. It spends most of it's life behind my garage, I don't drive a lot,
but short trips are probably harder on it than even driving ten miles one
way and back. Most of the time the temp gauge doesn't even come off the
peg
and I know that's hard on an engine.

I'm sure it's a long-lasting vehicle, but most of them are these days. I got
11 years and 130,000 miles on my Mazda 626 and it probably would still be
running if some dope didn't pull out of a side street and hit me head-on.

There aren't a lot of bad engines being built, compared to, say, 30 years
ago. Some of the Toyotas made in the mid-'70s had fewer head bolts than they
should have, and had a reputation for blowing head gaskets. But they fixed
that a long time ago.

For that matter, the old Ford 4-cyl. (2.0/2.3, Ford's first OHC production
engine) had too few oil passageways. They'd run bearings out if you drove
them hard.

The standards are a lot higher today. If a company gets a rep for building
bad engines, or bad anything, they get pounded in the marketplace.

--
Ed Huntress

"Jim Stewart" wrote in message
...
greybeard wrote:
"Jim Stewart" wrote in message
. ..

But you didn't have any problem buying that HF
MIG welder? Where was it made? Probably China.
Is that ok and Japan not? Coulda saved a job
at Miller or Hobart...

Your capability for research is limited, actually, it's italian. Were I in
a business, it would have been a poor choice, but as I only use it
occasionally, not a big deal. And yes, I'll buy from china before jap.
Quality is the same and prices vastly different. By using it to learn how
to weld with one, I did save a very important job, MINE. And a year later I
retired completely. "That's the breaks, boss."

BTW, for my business I only buy made-in-the-US
HP, Fluke or Tektronix test equipment. It's an
easy choice because their equipment is the best.

Were I in a business that would demand I need those, they would also be my
first choice. However, for home use, my old Weston does just fine.
(Complete with wood case and 5kv (I think) probe with compartment for same.)

Show me a US car company that will build me a
AWD station wagon with a 5-speed transmission,
quiet and torquey opposed 4-cylinder engine
that will go 120,000 miles with no more than
scheduled maintainance for $24,000 and I'll
buy it.

Most US manufacturers don't want to get into niche markets and have to
compete with the bull**** ads sub(human)aru puts out. (I wish to hell
they'd deport that smelly aussie, or hang him, makes little difference.)
(NOt that all aussies are smelly, just that particular smirking lying
sonofabitch.)

Rich.

"technomaNge" wrote in message
...
greybeard wrote:

technomaNge

Have a nice day too. Maybe sometime in 2110 or 2111.

But only one.

Snuggle up nice and comfy with gunner, in my killfile.

Rich

greybeard wrote:
"Jim Stewart" wrote in message
...

greybeard wrote:

"Jim Stewart" wrote in message
om...

But you didn't have any problem buying that HF
MIG welder? Where was it made? Probably China.
Is that ok and Japan not? Coulda saved a job
at Miller or Hobart...


Your capability for research is limited, actually, it's italian. Were I in
a business, it would have been a poor choice, but as I only use it
occasionally, not a big deal. And yes, I'll buy from china before jap.
Quality is the same and prices vastly different. By using it to learn how
to weld with one, I did save a very important job, MINE. And a year later I
retired completely. "That's the breaks, boss."

BTW, for my business I only buy made-in-the-US
HP, Fluke or Tektronix test equipment. It's an
easy choice because their equipment is the best.


Were I in a business that would demand I need those, they would also be my
first choice. However, for home use, my old Weston does just fine.
(Complete with wood case and 5kv (I think) probe with compartment for same.)

Weston made damn fine meters. Accurate and
reliable and almost a work of art to look at.
I have a 0-150 volt AC Weston on my desk
connected to the line. Gives me a nice feeling
to look over at an analog meter and see 117
volts.

Show me a US car company that will build me a
AWD station wagon with a 5-speed transmission,
quiet and torquey opposed 4-cylinder engine
that will go 120,000 miles with no more than
scheduled maintainance for $24,000 and I'll
buy it.


Most US manufacturers don't want to get into niche markets and have to
compete with the bull**** ads sub(human)aru puts out. (I wish to hell
they'd deport that smelly aussie, or hang him, makes little difference.)
(NOt that all aussies are smelly, just that particular smirking lying
sonofabitch.)

I don't like the guy either and Subaru
hasn't used him for years. I don't watch
much tv, but my perception is that Subaru
runs about one tenth of the ad time that
the major carmakers do. I know that it
seems like there's about 25 minutes of
car and truck commercials on any major-
league sports event, none of them Subaru.

On Mon, 20 Feb 2006 21:03:22 -0600, "greybeard"
wrote:


clare at snyder.on.ca wrote in message
.. .

Only thing is, it's my nieghbours building the Hondas and Toyotas. And
the "Suzuki" GMs from CAMI.Not the Mexicans building the Neons and
Durangos

Assembling you mean, any of the high cost parts are made in japland by
jenuine japs. The japs are 110% for the japs, and if it's at our expense,
they think it's all the better. Still doesn't change that fact that the
japcrap is all tinplate, except it would be an insult to good tinplate.

The myth of "japanese quality" is just that, a myth. Toyota, lexus, Yugo,
same difference. Except the price.

And you haven't named any vehicle in that grouping that I'd drive to a
scrapyard, I'd have it trucked from the showroom directly to the scrap
before I'd dirty my hands on the wheel. I don't have a neon or durango, my
S-10 came from Janesville, Wisconsin. My next vehicle, if there is a next
one, will be a Dodge, not a rice burner.

Rich

Well, I'm driving an american built Ford with as many imported parts
as the Cambridge built toyotas. (over 80% north american content on
the Toyota). We are in a WORLD economy. Keep as many jobs at home as
you can and still get the quality you want. I'd be driving Toyotas
right now if their resale value wasn't so good. I buy and drive used
cars. Usually 6-10 years old when I buy them, the American crap costs
about half what the Japanese does. My Mystique cost me half what a
used Camry V6 would have with the same mileage and condition - and the
Mystique was more expensive than the Camry new (fully loaded)

Same with my Pontiac Van. A Toyota Van, even with a bad engine, was
worth over $1500, and I bought the Poncho for $500. Replacing the
engine would have cost me virtually the same, either way. Would I
rather have Toyotas? Personally? Yes - definitely.

I've owned both, and my total cost of ownership with the Toyotas has
always been lower than with the Americans, but I paid more of it up
front. Since I drive 'em 'till nobody else wants them, resale value
doesn't mean much to me on disposal.
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On Mon, 20 Feb 2006 14:14:01 -0500, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

I don't recall any brake problems with any car that I've owned--my Dad's
pickup truck needed a new brake line once but it was 20 years old and he
snagged it on a stump.


And you don't drive in the "salt belt"
Up here EVERY manufacturer has brake problems. Deteriorating rotors
are tha main problem, due to salt getting into the pads.



Actually, from my experience, EXTREMELY durable. When you can get over
400,000km out of the low end tercel with no mechanical failures, one
clutch change, 2 timing belts and a set of axle joints, I have no
complaints. Or 600,000 on a '91 Civic VX with only a pair of front
axle bearings, a distributor, and an alternator bearing. AC still
works, and still has the original belt on it. Can't call that fragile,
the way that car gets driven.

Everybody gets lucky once in a while.

You call 600 cars a year for ten years lucky???

My own Tecel and my buddy's Civic are just 2 examples.

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In article ,
clare at snyder.on.ca wrote:

On Mon, 20 Feb 2006 14:14:01 -0500, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

I don't recall any brake problems with any car that I've owned--my Dad's
pickup truck needed a new brake line once but it was 20 years old and he
snagged it on a stump.


And you don't drive in the "salt belt"
Up here EVERY manufacturer has brake problems. Deteriorating rotors
are tha main problem, due to salt getting into the pads.



Actually, from my experience, EXTREMELY durable. When you can get over
400,000km out of the low end tercel with no mechanical failures, one
clutch change, 2 timing belts and a set of axle joints, I have no
complaints. Or 600,000 on a '91 Civic VX with only a pair of front
axle bearings, a distributor, and an alternator bearing. AC still
works, and still has the original belt on it. Can't call that fragile,
the way that car gets driven.

Everybody gets lucky once in a while.

You call 600 cars a year for ten years lucky???

My own Tecel and my buddy's Civic are just 2 examples.

Fergit it, Clare... You're trying to talk sense to a self-proclaimed
anti-japanese bigot. If he wants to pay out the ass for the over priced
rolling garbage piles that US makers have been selling for the last 30
years, let him. It just leaves more cheap and reliable jap cars for you
and me to drive.

--
Don Bruder - - If your "From:" address isn't on my whitelist,
or the subject of the message doesn't contain the exact text "PopperAndShadow"
somewhere, any message sent to this address will go in the garbage without my
ever knowing it arrived. Sorry... http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd for more info

"Don Bruder" wrote in message
...

One thing I hate about doing a system restore is having to slowly rebuild
the kill file.

Bye, bruder.