Has anyone tried renting industrial space for hobby use? My little one-car
garage just doesn't cut it anymore. Do the leasing companies only deal with
business entities? Has anyone done this before? Any pitfalls? I know
insurance might be difficult to obtain, but I'm not sure about anything
else.

Hi Al,

I basically did that this month. I found a nice little place with 400sq feet
less then 1 mile from my home. I am in the process of making it the way I
want right now. I was able to have the electrical bill added to my current
home account. I use my cell phone as my main phone anyway so did not need a
phone line. I might be adding cable for a internet connection. If the city
tax collector says you have to have a business license explain it is just
your storage area.

It is a real pleasure being able to have my tools and work out of the house


Good luck,


"AL" wrote in message
news:r1NFb.620484$HS4.4538622@attbi_s01...
Has anyone tried renting industrial space for hobby use? My little
one-car
garage just doesn't cut it anymore. Do the leasing companies only deal
with
business entities? Has anyone done this before? Any pitfalls? I know
insurance might be difficult to obtain, but I'm not sure about anything
else.

As a Pro I have been renting Ind. space for years and the bottom line is Pay
the rent That is all these folks
want.
Money talks and BS walks



"AL" wrote in message
news:r1NFb.620484$HS4.4538622@attbi_s01...
Has anyone tried renting industrial space for hobby use? My little
one-car
garage just doesn't cut it anymore. Do the leasing companies only deal
with
business entities? Has anyone done this before? Any pitfalls? I know
insurance might be difficult to obtain, but I'm not sure about anything
else.

Don't make a big deal with the owner about whether this is a hobby or a
business. He just wants to know that you'll pay the rent and not burn the
place down. Tell him you're in businesss ... the fact that you don't make any
money will be known only to your accountant!

Dave









As a Pro I have been renting Ind. space for years and the bottom line is Pay
the rent That is all these folks
want.
Money talks and BS walks



"AL" wrote in message
news:r1NFb.620484$HS4.4538622@attbi_s01...
Has anyone tried renting industrial space for hobby use? My little
one-car
garage just doesn't cut it anymore. Do the leasing companies only deal
with
business entities? Has anyone done this before? Any pitfalls? I know
insurance might be difficult to obtain, but I'm not sure about anything
else.

Speaking as a landlord who rents industrial space, I don't care if you
are commercial or hobby as long as you can demonstrate to me that you
can pay the rent over the lease term, will actually occupy and regularly
use the space so I can worry less about vandals, not damage the property
and not do something to get the EPA or the DEA down on me.

For sure I would rather have a hobby machinist that that guy who just
went belly up leaving me with a $50K clean up of solvents and other yet
to be identified chemicals dumped in back of the building.

AL wrote:

Has anyone tried renting industrial space for hobby use? My little one-car
garage just doesn't cut it anymore. Do the leasing companies only deal with
business entities? Has anyone done this before? Any pitfalls? I know
insurance might be difficult to obtain, but I'm not sure about anything
else.



--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 22:28:13 -0500, the renowned Glenn Ashmore
wrote:

Speaking as a landlord who rents industrial space, I don't care if you
are commercial or hobby as long as you can demonstrate to me that you
can pay the rent over the lease term, will actually occupy and regularly
use the space so I can worry less about vandals, not damage the property
and not do something to get the EPA or the DEA down on me.

For sure I would rather have a hobby machinist that that guy who just
went belly up leaving me with a $50K clean up of solvents and other yet
to be identified chemicals dumped in back of the building.

IME *industrial* rents are quoted triple-net (net-net-net), and the
costs on top (including RE taxes, utilities, etc.) can be a bit of a
surprise to the hapless tenant. You may get more stuff included if the
area is sublet or very small.

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

Spehro Pefhany wrote:
On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 22:28:13 -0500, the renowned Glenn Ashmore
wrote:


Speaking as a landlord who rents industrial space, I don't care if you
are commercial or hobby as long as you can demonstrate to me that you
can pay the rent over the lease term, will actually occupy and regularly
use the space so I can worry less about vandals, not damage the property
and not do something to get the EPA or the DEA down on me.

For sure I would rather have a hobby machinist that that guy who just
went belly up leaving me with a $50K clean up of solvents and other yet
to be identified chemicals dumped in back of the building.


IME *industrial* rents are quoted triple-net (net-net-net), and the
costs on top (including RE taxes, utilities, etc.) can be a bit of a
surprise to the hapless tenant. You may get more stuff included if the
area is sublet or very small.

That is true when you talk about more than a couple thousand square feet
bit there is usually a lot of space in the range suitable for small
shops rented on a gross rent basis. You do need to know exactly who is
responsible for what on commmercial space. It is not the same as
renting an apartment. As Spehro says, some leases make the tenant
responsible for everything including fire insurance and taxes. Others
the landlord pays taxes, insurance on the structure, maintains the roof
and the hot water heater. Tenant pays all the other expenses. Still
others, everything but janitorial srevice is included. There are all
sorts of combinations.

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

Glenn Ashmore wrote:
Speaking as a landlord who rents industrial space, I don't care if you
are commercial or hobby as long as you can demonstrate to me that you
can pay the rent over the lease term, will actually occupy and
regularly use the space so I can worry less about vandals, not damage
the property and not do something to get the EPA or the DEA down on
me.

For sure I would rather have a hobby machinist that that guy who just
went belly up leaving me with a $50K clean up of solvents and other
yet to be identified chemicals dumped in back of the building.

Hey! don't throw those chemicals away, us hobbyists could use them :-)

"AL" wrote:

Has anyone tried renting industrial space for hobby use? My little one-car
garage just doesn't cut it anymore. Do the leasing companies only deal with
business entities? Has anyone done this before? Any pitfalls? I know
insurance might be difficult to obtain, but I'm not sure about anything
else.

You bet!

Right now there seems to be a glut of vacant industrial space on the
market so you can pretty much find something that is tailored to your
needs.

I rent a 2,000 Sq. Ft. space and I love it.

Large overhead door plus a loading dock. 200 amp 3-phase service. And
now I can park in my garage again.

As for insurance: you might need liability insurance. If so, call your
insurance broker and get a quote.

George.

"Spehro Pefhany" wrote in message
...

IME *industrial* rents are quoted triple-net (net-net-net), and the
costs on top (including RE taxes, utilities, etc.) can be a bit of a
surprise to the hapless tenant. You may get more stuff included if the
area is sublet or very small.


The NNN leases are dependant on the market. In times of high vacancy,
landlords are happy to find a qualified tenant with a simple rental
agreement.

In some complexes, hobby shops are the preferred tenant as they might be
short on parking spaces and they really don't want to umpire parking
disputes.

--
Roger Shoaf
If you are not part of the solution, you are not dissolved in the solvent.

Spehro Pefhany wrote:


IME *industrial* rents are quoted triple-net (net-net-net), and the
costs on top (including RE taxes, utilities, etc.) can be a bit of a
surprise to the hapless tenant. You may get more stuff included if the
area is sublet or very small.


That would explain it.

Wife and I didn't have anything but a house. I went looking to rent
space. Around the corner was a ratty 4 bay with a small storage area.
Guy wanted $500 a month, I pay all expenses.

I **** my pants.

We got a loan and built a garage/ shop that can hold 6 cars (tightly).
It will be all mine in less than 7 years.



--

Mark

N.E. Ohio


Never argue with a fool, a bystander can't tell you apart. (S. Clemens,
A.K.A. Mark Twain)

When in doubt hit the throttle. It may not help but it sure ends the
suspense. (Gaz, r.moto)

If it's going to take seven years to get it built, I would find a different
contractor.


"Mark" wrote in message
...

).
It will be all mine in less than 7 years.

Oh yeah, another huge benefit for nuts like us, in a commercial property no
one is going to complain if you are working at 3am and running a table saw.
Well except for the guys who live in a store room someplace in one of your
neighbors companies, but they aren't supposed to be there anyway


"George" wrote in message
...
"AL" wrote:

Has anyone tried renting industrial space for hobby use? My little
one-car
garage just doesn't cut it anymore. Do the leasing companies only deal
with
business entities? Has anyone done this before? Any pitfalls? I know
insurance might be difficult to obtain, but I'm not sure about anything
else.

You bet!

Right now there seems to be a glut of vacant industrial space on the
market so you can pretty much find something that is tailored to your
needs.

I rent a 2,000 Sq. Ft. space and I love it.

Large overhead door plus a loading dock. 200 amp 3-phase service. And
now I can park in my garage again.

As for insurance: you might need liability insurance. If so, call your
insurance broker and get a quote.

George.

Mark wrote:

That would explain it.

Wife and I didn't have anything but a house. I went looking to rent
space. Around the corner was a ratty 4 bay with a small storage area.
Guy wanted $500 a month, I pay all expenses.

I **** my pants.

We got a loan and built a garage/ shop that can hold 6 cars (tightly).
It will be all mine in less than 7 years.


The key to all real estate value is location. A location with any
exposure to customer trafic will rent for considerably more than a back
alley shop regardless of condition.

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

Speaking as a tenant and the owner of a small business, finding the
right landlord and the right space is the hardest thing about setting
up a business. In the past five years I've had two serious threats to
put me out on the street, and right now I'm in a battle because the
landlord's heating contractor did a bunch of unauthorized work and
they're trying to stick me with the bill, plus a $35 "management fee"
if you can believe it.
You'll hear lots of horror stories. The bottom line is: if you hear a
little voice telling you not to deal with someone - walk! And whatever
you do, don't take a space on "month-to-month" if you plan on doing
any major work there.
Good to see Steve Knight from the "oldtools network" on the list!

regards,

Matt Turner
Turner Racing Shells Ltd.
www.turnershells.com

CW wrote:

If it's going to take seven years to get it built, I would find a different
contractor.



You misunderstand.

At this time the garage and house are Ours and the Credit Unions.

Pay off is in less than 7 years. Then it's Mine, All Mine! Well, except
for Wives parking spot and a few shelves.



--

Mark

N.E. Ohio


Never argue with a fool, a bystander can't tell you apart. (S. Clemens,
A.K.A. Mark Twain)

When in doubt hit the throttle. It may not help but it sure ends the
suspense. (Gaz, r.moto)

Mark wrote:


You misunderstand.

At this time the garage and house are Ours and the Credit Unions.

Pay off is in less than 7 years. Then it's Mine, All Mine! Well, except
for Wives parking spot and a few shelves.

If your SO is like mine and you are letting her use some of the space in
7 years she will have squeezed you out and you will be back in the
regular garage. :-)

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 18:39:35 -0700, AL wrote
(in message r1NFb.620484$HS4.4538622@attbi_s01):

Has anyone tried renting industrial space for hobby use? My little one-car
garage just doesn't cut it anymore. Do the leasing companies only deal with
business entities? Has anyone done this before? Any pitfalls? I know
insurance might be difficult to obtain, but I'm not sure about anything
else.



I rented a "stall" in a segmented warehouse a number of years ago It had a
steel walkthrough door and a 12 foot roll up, about 800 ft^2. I had to get my
own 220 power run in since it only had a single shared 110v 15A circuit which
cost about $600. Rent on the space was about $200/month (no other utilities).
They didn't really care what I did, just as long as rent was paid. Others had
small machine shops, chile roasting/packaging, potato chip distributor, etc.

-Bruce

That's what you think ... it will actually belong to the local taxing
authority. Try not paying them and see how much your "ownership" counts.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 12/21/03


"Mark" wrote in message

You misunderstand.

At this time the garage and house are Ours and the Credit Unions.

Pay off is in less than 7 years. Then it's Mine, All Mine! Well, except
for Wives parking spot and a few shelves.

Just for calibration purposes:

For another project I checked with a local real estate guy on
warehouse space. valid for the Minnneapolis area:

Standard office warehouse space in the suburbs, off in some
industrial park, you've seen them, tiny reception area, larger
office, smaller office, store room, 30' wide, 90' deep, Loading
dock in back, 4" floors, 220 power but not 3 phase. $4 a square
foot per YEAR for the warehouse space, $10 a square foot per year
for the office, figure $6 per foot blended. 2700 feet would be
around $16000/year or $1350 per month. I've seen small
distributors, woodworking shops, machine shops, fabricators,
assemblers, etc in these spaces.

Another outfit subdivides this into smaller spaces. Price would
still be in the $6 range. 800 feet would be $400 a month, not
horrible for a newer building in a place where you can park your
car outside and still have wheels on it when you get done inside.

AL wrote:
Has anyone tried renting industrial space for hobby use? My little one-car
garage just doesn't cut it anymore. Do the leasing companies only deal with
business entities? Has anyone done this before? Any pitfalls? I know
insurance might be difficult to obtain, but I'm not sure about anything
else.

Glenn Ashmore wrote:



The key to all real estate value is location. A location with any
exposure to customer trafic will rent for considerably more than a back
alley shop regardless of condition.


Understood, Mom got her real estate license in the latter 60's and her
brokers license in the earlier '70s. I haven't worked the profession but
I sure as hell witnessed it.


While the 'shop' I referenced was in a decent location it was something
you would find on a back alley. Uneven floors, damp, rickety doors,
something from Stump Town.



--

Mark

N.E. Ohio


Never argue with a fool, a bystander can't tell you apart. (S. Clemens,
A.K.A. Mark Twain)

When in doubt hit the throttle. It may not help but it sure ends the
suspense. (Gaz, r.moto)

It will vary a lot depending on whether you are in a small town or a
large one. Most business space leases start out at about 3 years
because most of the leasing companies expect to do some modifications
for the tenant and want to know the tenant will be around to recoup the
costs. however, there are some cases where you can get a single year
lease if you look around. Single year tends to be expensive though (all
commercial space tends to be overpriced in my opinion...a lot of cash
for an essentially empty room). I haven't seen any "month to month" on
commercial space but it may exist if you look long enough.

Most commercial space is rented on a "triple net" basis (often called
NNN). This means that the tenants of the units share ALL costs for
maintenance, water, outside lighting, management fees, etc. This can
really add up. For example, if the landlord decides the parking lot
needs re-paving or the building painting, you are stuck for you
proportion of the costs (even if you don't think it needed to be done).

Currently, my 1536 square foot place costs about 1100 a month (seattle
area) and the NNN is another couple of hundred a month. This may give
you an idea of the costs of commercial space in a fairly large
metropolitan area.

Oh yea...one of the most common lawsuits is broken business leases.
Don't expect to back out of a lease early in the commercial end without
getting nailed.

I would avoid true commercial space and see if there is someone willing
to lease "barn" space or something similar. The other option is to shop
around for someone who actually owns the space and uses most for their
own business. They may have some surplus space they can rent you with
fewer problems.

Koz

AL wrote:

Has anyone tried renting industrial space for hobby use? My little one-car
garage just doesn't cut it anymore. Do the leasing companies only deal with
business entities? Has anyone done this before? Any pitfalls? I know
insurance might be difficult to obtain, but I'm not sure about anything
else.

"Koz" wrote in message
I haven't seen any "month to month" on
commercial space but it may exist if you look long enough.


You won't see it in prime space, but a lot of smaller old building it is
readily available. I know of some wee to week and partial month renters.
Depends on location and the economy
Ed

Swingman wrote:

That's what you think ... it will actually belong to the local taxing
authority. Try not paying them and see how much your "ownership" counts.



Do you really think I wanted/ needed reminding of that???


I can name quite a few things if you were to do you would be reminded of
true ownership and freedom.

So lets not go there.

--

Mark

N.E. Ohio


Never argue with a fool, a bystander can't tell you apart. (S. Clemens,
A.K.A. Mark Twain)

When in doubt hit the throttle. It may not help but it sure ends the
suspense. (Gaz, r.moto)

On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 01:39:35 GMT, "AL"
wrote:

Has anyone tried renting industrial space for hobby use?

I've done this with many, many bands, but not woodworking. I don't
see why it would be all that different with woodworking.

Tips:
Talk to some commercial realtors. They often have empty space that
they'll rent cheap if you'll vacate it quickly, if necessary, and not
require a lease. Paying in cash can help as well. G

GET INSURANCE! It counts for a lot with the folks above.

Make it known that you're a hobbyist, NOT a for-profit wood shop.
Underscore the artistic side of the craft, as a potter or art
photographer might.

Know any other locals? Form a club and you may be able to get some
space, with a decent lease, by hooking up with them.

Talk to arts groups, like local theater groups or art guilds. They
often know of warehouse style space available, off the beaten path, at
reasonable rates.

Woodworking is artistic. Push the artsy side over the carpentry side
when dealing with realtors and landlords. This can also reinforce the
not-for-profit bent of the endeavor.

Be prepared to provide some sort of non-electric, portable heater.

Barry

On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 05:41:04 GMT, Mark
wrote:


Wife and I didn't have anything but a house. I went looking to rent
space. Around the corner was a ratty 4 bay with a small storage area.
Guy wanted $500 a month, I pay all expenses.

I often rented spaces that size for band practice spaces for less than
$200. G

It's ART, not a business! G

Barry

Sorry to bring you back down to reality ... unfortunately, we are more or
less forced to "go there" about this time of year.

I mentioned it because I just happened to get my 2003 property tax statement
a few minutes before I read the thread ... damn taxes property taxes around
here are now on a par with monthly mortgage payment. 80% of which goes for
education (sub standard), via local school taxes, mostly to pay for perks
.... perks that I can't afford for my own family ... for a bunch of
educated-beyond-their-intelligence educrats ... and whose education I
probably paid for to boot.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 12/23/03

"Mark" wrote in message


Swingman wrote:

That's what you think ... it will actually belong to the local taxing
authority. Try not paying them and see how much your "ownership" counts.


Do you really think I wanted/ needed reminding of that???


I can name quite a few things if you were to do you would be reminded of
true ownership and freedom.

So lets not go there.

Swingman wrote:

Sorry to bring you back down to reality ... unfortunately, we are more or
less forced to "go there" about this time of year.

I mentioned it because I just happened to get my 2003 property tax statement
a few minutes before I read the thread ... damn taxes property taxes around
here are now on a par with monthly mortgage payment. 80% of which goes for
education (sub standard), via local school taxes, mostly to pay for perks



I know how you feel.

I see it as my duty to pay to educate children so it didn't use to
bother me when money went to the school system. That's altruism as Wife
and I have no children and never will.

However I will never vote for another school levy and will do what I can
to make any levy fail.

The local school board needed both a school and stadium. Guess which
they built first. Yes, a stadium. But not just a stadium, a frigging
nice sports complex, almost state of the art. I've seen universities and
colleges with less.

But this complex is not even theirs. They got a levy passed, bought the
land and prepared it, then through some convoluted local political and
business deal had the stadium built and are now leasing it.

So now their asking for more money, a huge levy to build a school. Big
Boo Hoo from the board about the children being in a 40 year old building.

First, they made their decision, sports are more important than education.

Second, the lease payments. They can't make them. If these people get
the levy passed no doubt where the moneys going, to the holder of the
lease. The boards buddies.

To sour this a bit more, I live in an allotment that had it's own tax to
pay for city water and sewer. No one else paid for this and it's been
paid off. The sports complex is right up the street and when they built
it they tapped into the utilities we paid to have installed.


Told you not to go here, you mention your tax statement and it opens a
train of thought I rather had left closed. This thread started out about
leasing space for a hobby and look where it's been hijacked to.


/vent


Sorry folks.



--

Mark

N.E. Ohio


Never argue with a fool, a bystander can't tell you apart. (S. Clemens,
A.K.A. Mark Twain)

When in doubt hit the throttle. It may not help but it sure ends the
suspense. (Gaz, r.moto)

Has anyone tried renting industrial space for hobby use?

I've been keeping my eyes open for a wheelchair accessible space for a
number of years here in Toronto, Canada. The 'accessible part' severely
limits available choices. The accessible spaces I've found are too far away
for regular usage of such a space or I get the rental offer of space if they
can use my tools on occasion, which immediately wants me to run and hide. I
tell them if they were renting me a garage to place a car, would they expect
to drive the car? That usually shuts them up, but the available space
evaporates soon after that.
Tips:
Talk to some commercial realtors. They often have empty space that
they'll rent cheap if you'll vacate it quickly, if necessary, and not
require a lease. Paying in cash can help as well. G

Pretty difficult if you have a number of woodworking machines to move on a
moments notice. I went through this once and had to move everything into a
10'x10' storage facility at $100 a month. Four years later ($5000 worth) I
sold or gave the tools away just to be shed of the cost.

Mark wrote:



However I will never vote for another school levy and will do what I can
to make any levy fail.

The local school board needed both a school and stadium. Guess which
they built first. Yes, a stadium. But not just a stadium, a frigging
nice sports complex, almost state of the art. I've seen universities and
colleges with less.

But this complex is not even theirs. They got a levy passed, bought the
land and prepared it, then through some convoluted local political and
business deal had the stadium built and are now leasing it.

So now their asking for more money, a huge levy to build a school. Big
Boo Hoo from the board about the children being in a 40 year old building.


Gee, sounds just like Ravenna OH.

If so, I live just down the road in Rootstown.
I see you're on NEO RoadRunner. So could be, I guess.
Well met!

I voted against the last school levy. (for the first time.) They're just
wasting too much of their unlimited supply of (other people's) money.

John

Gotta get a T-shirt made:
Where the heck is Rootstown, Ohio?
Just south of Ravenna.

John Husvar wrote:

Mark wrote:

So now their asking for more money, a huge levy to build a school. Big
Boo Hoo from the board about the children being in a 40 year old
building.


Gee, sounds just like Ravenna OH.

If so, I live just down the road in Rootstown.


Son of a bitch, it's a small world.

I guess I better behave with someone so close. ;}

I'm curious, at what point in my rant did you look at my address? l

We should meet for a Sunday breakfast at Bob's or East Park or the
restaurant in the Big Bird plaza, just not this year.


I voted against the last school levy. (for the first time.) They're just
wasting too much of their unlimited supply of (other people's) money.


As I said, I see it as a duty to help pay for children's education. And
it would be damned hypocritical of me to have objections in helping pay
for other peoples children's education as Wife works at KSU and in the
last ten years I've earned about 100 semester hours on her tuition waver.


A line has to be drawn and the school boards need held responsible for
their decisions.



--

Mark

N.E. Ohio


Never argue with a fool, a bystander can't tell you apart. (S. Clemens,
A.K.A. Mark Twain)

When in doubt hit the throttle. It may not help but it sure ends the
suspense. (Gaz, r.moto)

Glenn Ashmore wrote:



If your SO is like mine and you are letting her use some of the space in
7 years she will have squeezed you out and you will be back in the
regular garage. :-)


I've been resisting replying because I want to say it won't happen, but
it started the day I put up the shelves.


--

Mark

N.E. Ohio


Never argue with a fool, a bystander can't tell you apart. (S. Clemens,
A.K.A. Mark Twain)

When in doubt hit the throttle. It may not help but it sure ends the
suspense. (Gaz, r.moto)

Mark wrote:


John Husvar wrote:

Mark wrote:

So now their asking for more money, a huge levy to build a school.
Big Boo Hoo from the board about the children being in a 40 year old
building.


Gee, sounds just like Ravenna OH.

If so, I live just down the road in Rootstown.



Son of a bitch, it's a small world.

I guess I better behave with someone so close. ;}

I'm curious, at what point in my rant did you look at my address? l

The whole story just sounded familiar since there's been mention of that
fiasco in the press. Took a look at your address and, sure enough, NE Ohio.

At that point I decided to reply just on the chance you were referring
to Ravenna.


We should meet for a Sunday breakfast at Bob's or East Park or the
restaurant in the Big Bird plaza, just not this year.

Sounds good to me. We could exchange phone numbers via private email or
just arrange it in email.



I voted against the last school levy. (for the first time.) They're
just wasting too much of their unlimited supply of (other people's)
money.



As I said, I see it as a duty to help pay for children's education. And
it would be damned hypocritical of me to have objections in helping pay
for other peoples children's education as Wife works at KSU and in the
last ten years I've earned about 100 semester hours on her tuition waver.


A line has to be drawn and the school boards need held responsible for
their decisions.


Exactly. School boards can't simply expect voters to continue funding
them at continually increasing levels as educational attainment of the
pupils continually decreasing.

Merry Holidays!

John