In article ,
(Doug Miller) wrote:

It's your choice. With my electrical utility, if you "tickle" a
lineman, they will stop work, trace down where the electricity is
coming from, cut your lines off, and you will NEVER get electrical
service again. It's a union thing. They will blacklist your address.

Sounds like an urban legend to me...

It's not.

More than a union "thing" it's more of a "brotherhood" thing: You burned the
crap outta (or killed) my buddy, yours is gonna be the LAST service restored.

You can then expect all manner of "fun and games" from the utility's legal
department, just for starters. They WON'T, however, "never" reconnect the
service. They'll just bury you in so much bullsh*t following the accident
that you'll hire a licensed unionist electrician to install a transfer switch
- and wish you had done so earlier.

I honestly believe that everyone participating in this contentious topic has
the KNOWLEDGE and smarts enough to OPEN the main breaker or pull the meter.
It's the plethora of clueless DIY'ers out there buying generators "just in
case" that are cause for concern.
--

JR

Climb poles and dig holes
Have staplegun, will travel

On Fri, 22 Dec 2006 16:54:26 -0600, CJT wrote:

Doug Miller wrote:

In article , Mark Lloyd wrote:

On Fri, 22 Dec 2006 19:48:30 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:


In article , CJT wrote:


And in a perfect world, nobody would accidentally flip a breaker.

Be realistic -- who's going to "accidentally" flip the MAIN??

By the time you find out, it'll be too late to stop it.

I never understood why people assume the one thing (perfection) that's
actually impossible.


Like I said... be realistic. Learn to distinguish real hazards from imagined
ones. Do what you can to prevent the real ones -- and ignore the ones that
arise only from your imagination.

Given that linemen have died in situations similar to what we're
discussing, I think we need to consider this a "real" hazard.

Sho'ly, sho'ly.

I switch the MAIN off, and pull the meter. Start the generator, and
30A jumps thru thin air, once in the breaker circuit, a second time in the
meter socket. Runs out thru the power lines and kills some po' lineman.

It'd have to perform magic only once to close the external circuit
with your safety switch ...

Any lineman could glance at the empty meter socket and KNOW for
certain that "juice floweth not" from the house to the lines.

Face it. 30% of lineman injuries are due to simple carelessness.
Near 70% are related to the insane conditions that ensue when
the utility's grids fail massively for one reason or another.

"They Have Seen The Enemy And He Is Them!" to paraphrase Walt
Kelly.

Puddin' (at home, always all by his lonesome)

Pease pudding hot,
Pease pudding cold,
Pease pudding in the pot
Nine days old ...

Jim Redelfs wrote:

I honestly believe that everyone participating in this contentious topic has
the KNOWLEDGE and smarts enough to OPEN the main breaker or pull the meter.
It's the plethora of clueless DIY'ers out there buying generators "just in
case" that are cause for concern.
--

JR

Climb poles and dig holes
Have staplegun, will travel

Those are the clueless DIY'ers who are dropping like flies from CO for
running their generators in their living rooms in the PNW...

Pete C. wrote:

Jim Redelfs wrote:

I honestly believe that everyone participating in this contentious topic has
the KNOWLEDGE and smarts enough to OPEN the main breaker or pull the meter.
It's the plethora of clueless DIY'ers out there buying generators "just in
case" that are cause for concern.
--

JR

Climb poles and dig holes
Have staplegun, will travel


Those are the clueless DIY'ers who are dropping like flies from CO for
running their generators in their living rooms in the PNW...

Illiteracy (or is it unwillingness to read instructions?) takes its
toll ...

--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .

In article , CJT wrote:

Given that linemen have died in situations similar to what we're
discussing, I think we need to consider this a "real" hazard.

Cite one instance, please, in which a lineman has been killed by a backfed
generator when the service disconnect was OFF.

(Not holding my breath waiting...)

Yes, I understand there is a potential for serious danger. No, I'm *not*
advocating backfeeding service-entrance panels without a transfer switch. I'm
just pointing out that it's not automatically going to kill a lineman.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

In article , Mark Lloyd wrote:
On Fri, 22 Dec 2006 22:06:27 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , Mark Lloyd
wrote:

I didn't say that. I said that nothing can ever be done with 100%
reliability. That is, there is never a 100% guarantee that you will
remember to remove the meter EVERY time and that that meter will STAY
removed.

This is getting absurd. Do you think the meter is going to get up off the
ground, climb the wall, and reinstall itself into the base?

That is absurd, considering that is one of the LESS likely
possibilities.

OK, how about listing some of the ones you consider more likely? Do you
*really* think that pulling the meter is *not* a secure means of disconnecting
from the utility?


I considered doing that (connecting generator that way) once but never
did it because of the small risk of severe consequences.

I guess if you don't trust yourself to throw the main breaker,

I don't consider myself perfect. That's enough.

You don't have to be "perfect" -- you just have to get it right. Fer cryin'
out loud, man, how hard *is* it for you to throw the main breaker?

Sheesh.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

In article , Mark Lloyd wrote:
On Fri, 22 Dec 2006 22:07:40 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , Mark Lloyd
wrote:
On Fri, 22 Dec 2006 19:48:30 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , CJT wrote:

And in a perfect world, nobody would accidentally flip a breaker.

Be realistic -- who's going to "accidentally" flip the MAIN??

By the time you find out, it'll be too late to stop it.

I never understood why people assume the one thing (perfection) that's
actually impossible.

Like I said... be realistic. Learn to distinguish real hazards from imagined
ones. Do what you can to prevent the real ones -- and ignore the ones that
arise only from your imagination.

Actually, they arose from other posters on this group first.

OK, fine, they arose from _other_people's_ imaginations. Point remains that
you apparently have not yet learned to distinguish between real and imaginary
hazards.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Doug Miller wrote:
In article , CJT wrote:


Given that linemen have died in situations similar to what we're
discussing, I think we need to consider this a "real" hazard.


Cite one instance, please, in which a lineman has been killed by a backfed
generator when the service disconnect was OFF.

(Not holding my breath waiting...)

Yes, I understand there is a potential for serious danger. No, I'm *not*
advocating backfeeding service-entrance panels without a transfer switch. I'm
just pointing out that it's not automatically going to kill a lineman.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if some DIY'er somewhere had turned the
main breaker "off" (having been warned of the dangers) and then hooked
up to the wrong side of it. Why, wondered he, was the generator so hard
to start, and why didn't his lights come on?

--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .

In article , CJT wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:
In article , CJT wrote:


Given that linemen have died in situations similar to what we're
discussing, I think we need to consider this a "real" hazard.


Cite one instance, please, in which a lineman has been killed by a backfed
generator when the service disconnect was OFF.

(Not holding my breath waiting...)

Yes, I understand there is a potential for serious danger. No, I'm *not*
advocating backfeeding service-entrance panels without a transfer switch. I'm

just pointing out that it's not automatically going to kill a lineman.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if some DIY'er somewhere had turned the
main breaker "off" (having been warned of the dangers) and then hooked
up to the wrong side of it. Why, wondered he, was the generator so hard
to start, and why didn't his lights come on?

I sure would be surprised if that happened... and if it did, I'd expect even
the dullest person to figure out why it wasn't working.


--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

On Fri, 22 Dec 2006 17:42:57 -0600, Jim Redelfs
wrote:

In article ,
Mark Lloyd wrote:

They could have just tested the line, found it dead, and touched it.
THEN you start your generator...

Not to support the other "side" but, once tested and found safe, power guys
bond-to-ground the stuff on which they're working.

Usually.
But Linemen make mistakes, too.
And the time they're most likely to make mistakes
is during the Nth day of a long term outage,
which is conveniently also the time when
people are most likely to (A) be running generators,
and (B) be getting sloppy about it.

Like I said... be realistic. Learn to distinguish real hazards from imagined
ones. Do what you can to prevent the real ones -- and ignore the ones that
arise only from your imagination.

Given that linemen have died in situations similar to what we're
discussing, I think we need to consider this a "real" hazard.

Sho'ly, sho'ly.

I switch the MAIN off, and pull the meter. Start the generator, and
30A jumps thru thin air, once in the breaker circuit, a second time in the
meter socket. Runs out thru the power lines and kills some po' lineman.

You keep saying that. You keep telling us that you
always pull the meter, and shut the main breaker off.

YOU may think you'll get it right, but you've already
demonstrated, by not putting in the switch, that your
judgment cannot be trusted. So don't expect anyone
to agree with you.

--Goedjn

I wouldn't be at all surprised if some DIY'er somewhere had turned the
main breaker "off" (having been warned of the dangers) and then hooked
up to the wrong side of it. Why, wondered he, was the generator so hard
to start, and why didn't his lights come on?

I sure would be surprised if that happened... and if it did, I'd expect even
the dullest person to figure out why it wasn't working.

Clearly you have never worked a customer service desk.

Doug Miller wrote:

In article , Mark Lloyd wrote:
On Fri, 22 Dec 2006 22:06:27 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , Mark Lloyd
wrote:

I didn't say that. I said that nothing can ever be done with 100%
reliability. That is, there is never a 100% guarantee that you will
remember to remove the meter EVERY time and that that meter will STAY
removed.

This is getting absurd. Do you think the meter is going to get up off the
ground, climb the wall, and reinstall itself into the base?

That is absurd, considering that is one of the LESS likely
possibilities.

OK, how about listing some of the ones you consider more likely? Do you
*really* think that pulling the meter is *not* a secure means of disconnecting
from the utility?


I considered doing that (connecting generator that way) once but never
did it because of the small risk of severe consequences.

I guess if you don't trust yourself to throw the main breaker,

I don't consider myself perfect. That's enough.

You don't have to be "perfect" -- you just have to get it right. Fer cryin'
out loud, man, how hard *is* it for you to throw the main breaker?

Sheesh.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Pulling the meter *and* doing the lockout-tagout thing would be pretty
secure.

Pete C.

In article . com,
wrote:
Puddin' Man wrote:

I have a 21 yr-old Cutler-Hammer panel that I installed myself back
around 1984.

No doubt there's numerous houses in which an interlock kit would
make sense. But there's nobody here but po' me, and, to my knowledge,
I don't need to idiot-proof the damned thang. Before any gas
generator were connected, the main breaker -would- be switched
off. And it would stay off until the gen. was removed.

It's your choice. With my electrical utility, if you "tickle" a
lineman, they will stop work, trace down where the electricity is
coming from, cut your lines off, and you will NEVER get electrical
service again. It's a union thing. They will blacklist your address.


Hah! That's the best one I've read today!

Thanks

--
When the game is over, the pawn and the king are returned to the same box.

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland -

In article , "Pete C."
wrote:

Those are the clueless DIY'ers who are dropping like flies from CO for
running their generators in their living rooms in the PNW...

In THAT case, I'm a huge believer in Darwin's theory...
--
sigh
JR

On Sat, 23 Dec 2006 01:38:28 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , Mark Lloyd wrote:
On Fri, 22 Dec 2006 22:06:27 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , Mark Lloyd
wrote:

I didn't say that. I said that nothing can ever be done with 100%
reliability. That is, there is never a 100% guarantee that you will
remember to remove the meter EVERY time and that that meter will STAY
removed.

This is getting absurd. Do you think the meter is going to get up off the
ground, climb the wall, and reinstall itself into the base?

That is absurd, considering that is one of the LESS likely
possibilities.

OK, how about listing some of the ones you consider more likely?

I already did.

Do you
*really* think that pulling the meter is *not* a secure means of disconnecting
from the utility?

Apparently you didn't read what I wrote. [whole sentence deleted].



I considered doing that (connecting generator that way) once but never
did it because of the small risk of severe consequences.

I guess if you don't trust yourself to throw the main breaker,

I don't consider myself perfect. That's enough.

You don't have to be "perfect" -- you just have to get it right.

And don't leave out the EVERY SINGLE TIME part.

Fer cryin'
out loud, man, how hard *is* it for you to throw the main breaker?


[needless repetition deleted]

Sheesh.
--
2 days until the winter solstice celebration

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"Never underestimate the power of stupid
people in large groups"

On Fri, 22 Dec 2006 17:42:57 -0600, Jim Redelfs
wrote:

In article ,
Mark Lloyd wrote:

They could have just tested the line, found it dead, and touched it.
THEN you start your generator...

Not to support the other "side" but, once tested and found safe, power guys
bond-to-ground the stuff on which they're working.

And all storms fully respect bonding-to-ground.
--
2 days until the winter solstice celebration

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"Never underestimate the power of stupid
people in large groups"

On Sat, 23 Dec 2006 01:39:43 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , Mark Lloyd wrote:
On Fri, 22 Dec 2006 22:07:40 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , Mark Lloyd
wrote:
On Fri, 22 Dec 2006 19:48:30 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , CJT wrote:

And in a perfect world, nobody would accidentally flip a breaker.

Be realistic -- who's going to "accidentally" flip the MAIN??

By the time you find out, it'll be too late to stop it.

I never understood why people assume the one thing (perfection) that's
actually impossible.

Like I said... be realistic. Learn to distinguish real hazards from imagined
ones. Do what you can to prevent the real ones -- and ignore the ones that
arise only from your imagination.

Actually, they arose from other posters on this group first.

OK, fine, they arose from _other_people's_ imaginations.

This is a big enough place that a lot of things really do happen.

And, of course, a healthy imagination is a good thing. It helps you
prevent real disasters.

Point remains that
you apparently have not yet learned to distinguish between real and imaginary
hazards.

Then there's that real big imaginary hazard that more than half of
Americans claim to worry about....
--
2 days until the winter solstice celebration

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"Never underestimate the power of stupid
people in large groups"

Pete C. wrote:
Puddin' Man wrote:
On Thu, 21 Dec 2006 09:48:39 -0500, "The Streets" wrote:

"terry" wrote in message
ups.com...
HeyBub wrote:
There are two phases dropped to the house, 120 each. If you lose one, you
still have the other. ....................... snip ...................
Also: While agreeing that the term 'phase' is sometimes used
........................

More correctly there are two 'legs' which are the opposite ends of the
same centre tapped 230 volt single phase!

Thus one can be considered (sort of, although incorrectly as far as AC
is concerned) as being plus 120 volts and the other as neg. 120 volts
and therefore about 240 volts between the two of them; which is used to
power heavy y items such as water heaters, electric cooking stoves
etc.

If the the two wires were really different phases they would have
voltages 120 degrees apart and there would be a peculiar voltage
between the two. Not the 230/240 volts (180 degrees with the two ends
always of opposite polarity) expected.

Same thing happened to my neighbours garage; they lost one side (or
leg) of the 230 volt supply. The 'electrician' they hired came over to
my house to borrow a multimeter and I went over and checked it for
them! Utility company fixed a defective over head drop later that day.
Losing one leg is not all that uncommon, at least around here. I've seen
this at least three time in the past year -- all problems that the local
utility
had to fix. As another poster has mentioned - the tip off is if every other
circuit is off. Also, be careful of back feeds through 220v appliances like
ranges, water heaters and dryers.
I'll bite.

Suppose I've got a (residential) 200A main breaker panel, and the
street power fails.

I switch off the main breaker and use a gas powered 40A generator
to backfeed the 30A (220v) circuit for the elec. dryer.

What can I expect? Live circuits, dead circuits? Overload
conditions??

Elec. power around here (MO) seems to get less and less reliable
by the month, else I wouldn't ask.

Thx,
Puddin'

Pease pudding hot,
Pease pudding cold,
Pease pudding in the pot
Nine days old ...

That's not the same kind of back feed.

The back feed referenced is the potential for the leg that is "dead" due
to a failed utility connection to become energized from the remaining
live leg when a 240V appliance is switched on. The 240V appliance
providing a connection between the two legs. The appliance will of
course not operate since one of the hot legs it relies on is "dead", but
it will provide a conduction path from the one that is live to the other
presenting a hazard if you are carelessly working on that "dead" leg.

Back feeding your house from a generator through a breaker other than
the main in the panel works perfectly fine. The situation you indicated
with the dryer outlet is not legal due to the lack of a safety interlock
to insure the main is indeed off when power is being back fed through
the dryer outlet. The electrically identical scenario is legal when the
main breaker and the dedicated back feed breaker are interlocked with an
approved device to insure the main is off when the back feed breaker is
on.

Pete C.

The installation you describe is only lawful and safe if the interlock
was installed pursuant to the local electrical code and the installation
was checked very carefully with appropriate test equipment against the
existence of sneak current paths back to the utility side of the main
breaker such as a second meter or utility remote control for water
heating or air conditioning.
--
Tom Horne

Well we aren't no thin blue heroes and yet we aren't no blackguards to.
We're just working men and woman most remarkable like you.

Puddin' Man wrote:
On Thu, 21 Dec 2006 13:31:22 -0600, CJT wrote:

Puddin' Man wrote:
On Thu, 21 Dec 2006 09:48:39 -0500, "The Streets" wrote:


"terry" wrote in message
ups.com...

HeyBub wrote:

There are two phases dropped to the house, 120 each. If you lose one, you
still have the other. ....................... snip ...................
Also: While agreeing that the term 'phase' is sometimes used
........................

More correctly there are two 'legs' which are the opposite ends of the
same centre tapped 230 volt single phase!

Thus one can be considered (sort of, although incorrectly as far as AC
is concerned) as being plus 120 volts and the other as neg. 120 volts
and therefore about 240 volts between the two of them; which is used to
power heavy y items such as water heaters, electric cooking stoves
etc.

If the the two wires were really different phases they would have
voltages 120 degrees apart and there would be a peculiar voltage
between the two. Not the 230/240 volts (180 degrees with the two ends
always of opposite polarity) expected.

Same thing happened to my neighbours garage; they lost one side (or
leg) of the 230 volt supply. The 'electrician' they hired came over to
my house to borrow a multimeter and I went over and checked it for
them! Utility company fixed a defective over head drop later that day.
Losing one leg is not all that uncommon, at least around here. I've seen
this at least three time in the past year -- all problems that the local
utility
had to fix. As another poster has mentioned - the tip off is if every other
circuit is off. Also, be careful of back feeds through 220v appliances like
ranges, water heaters and dryers.

I'll bite.

Suppose I've got a (residential) 200A main breaker panel, and the
street power fails.

I switch off the main breaker and use a gas powered 40A generator
to backfeed the 30A (220v) circuit for the elec. dryer.

What can I expect? Live circuits, dead circuits? Overload
conditions??

That depends where you connect, and which breakers are "on."

There's a good chance you'll energize the whole house unless
you're careful, which might very well overload your generator.

What you suggest is _very_ dangerous. You should have a
proper transfer box.

Suppose, in an emergency scenario, I pick a couple 15A circuits
and switch all the other breakers off? Safe?

Thanks,
P

Pease pudding hot,
Pease pudding cold,
Pease pudding in the pot
Nine days old ...

To render it safe would take a double block and break consisting of
opening the main breaker followed by a utility person removing your
meter and locking the meter enclosure to prevent the installation of
meter shunts. That way both parties would have to make the same mistake
in order to jeopardize the outside wiremen who are working to restore
the power.
--
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
for general use." Thomas Alva Edison

"Thomas D. Horne, FF EMT" wrote:


Back feeding your house from a generator through a breaker other than
the main in the panel works perfectly fine. The situation you indicated
with the dryer outlet is not legal due to the lack of a safety interlock
to insure the main is indeed off when power is being back fed through
the dryer outlet. The electrically identical scenario is legal when the
main breaker and the dedicated back feed breaker are interlocked with an
approved device to insure the main is off when the back feed breaker is
on.

Pete C.

The installation you describe is only lawful and safe if the interlock
was installed pursuant to the local electrical code and the installation
was checked very carefully with appropriate test equipment against the
existence of sneak current paths back to the utility side of the main
breaker such as a second meter or utility remote control for water
heating or air conditioning.
--
Tom Horne

Well we aren't no thin blue heroes and yet we aren't no blackguards to.
We're just working men and woman most remarkable like you.

There is no local electrical code, I'm outside city limits. I checked
with the city building folks before my panel replacement project and
they said essentially, have fun, be careful.

The interlock kit is manufactured by Square D and is rated and approved
for the Square D panel it is installed in. There are no secondary meters
or utility remotes anywhere around here and the same potential issues
with them would apply regardless of whether a transfer switch or
interlock kit were used.

Pete C.

Doug Miller wrote:
In article . com, wrote:
Puddin' Man wrote:

I have a 21 yr-old Cutler-Hammer panel that I installed myself back
around 1984.

No doubt there's numerous houses in which an interlock kit would
make sense. But there's nobody here but po' me, and, to my knowledge,
I don't need to idiot-proof the damned thang. Before any gas
generator were connected, the main breaker -would- be switched
off. And it would stay off until the gen. was removed.
It's your choice. With my electrical utility, if you "tickle" a
lineman, they will stop work, trace down where the electricity is
coming from, cut your lines off, and you will NEVER get electrical
service again. It's a union thing. They will blacklist your address.

Sounds like an urban legend to me...


I was there in Silver Spring, MD during the late nineties ice storm when
the outside superintendent took a climbing harness out of the trunk of
his sedan and climbed a pole in order to drop the service drop for an
offending house into the front yard. They could not get power back
until a master electrician certified that their property was free of any
uncontrolled energy source connected to it's wiring. The home is now
powered through an manual transfer switch which the owner had to install
at his own expense.
--
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
for general use." Thomas Alva Edison

Doug Miller wrote:
In article , Jim Redelfs wrote:
In article ,
Puddin' Man wrote:

I switch off the main breaker and use a gas powered 40A generator
to backfeed the 30A (220v) circuit for the elec. dryer.

What can I expect? Live circuits, dead circuits? Overload
conditions??
Dead linemen?

Yeah, yeah... You switched off the main breaker, but, in your urgency and in
the dark, flipped the WRONG breaker.

Oh, puhleeeze... don't be ridiculous.

If he has enough light (from a flashlight, candle, oil lamp, moonlight,
sunlight, cig lighter, Coleman lantern, jar full of fireflies, or whatever) to
connect the generator, how do you imagine that he can't see which breaker is
the main?

For that matter, even in the dark, how does he not *feel* which breaker is the
main?

And of course it should be obvious that, once the generator is on, there
*will* be lights available to check to make *sure* that the main is off.
Properly install and use a transfer switch or just run some extension cords to
essential appliances during the outage.

Or be aware of the difference between real and imagined hazards, take steps to
prevent the real ones (such as making sure the main breaker is off), and
ignore the imagined ones. Yes, a transfer switch is the right way to do it.
No, you can't just run an extension cord to a furnace or a well pump. In an
emergency, you do what you have to do.


Oh Please Doug. Explain the operation of a split buss panel! What is
the relationship between the dryer breaker of a split buss panel and the
main breaker? How does the service lateral to a detached garage and a
previously existing or newly installed lighting circuit that originates
in the house affect the reliability of the house's main breaker as an
isolating switch? How does the existence of a long disused meter tap
for off peak metering effect the likelihood of harm? How does the
presence of off peak metering connection and the faulting of a heating
element in the water heater effect outside wiremen safety? How much
will you bet that your suicide cord will never fall into the wrong hands?

Why does the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health
(NIOSH) website contain several Fatality Assessment and Control
Evaluation(FACE) reports on linemen killed by generator back feeds? Do
you think each of those several generator users woke up one day and said
I think I'd like to kill someone today. I want to rend the hearts of an
unoffending widow and orphans with unavailing grief.
--
Tom Horne

Well we aren't no thin blue heroes and yet we aren't no blackguards to.
We're just working men and woman most remarkable like you.

Doug Miller wrote:
In article , Jim Redelfs wrote:
In article ,
Puddin' Man wrote:

I switch off the main breaker and use a gas powered 40A generator
to backfeed the 30A (220v) circuit for the elec. dryer.

What can I expect? Live circuits, dead circuits? Overload
conditions??
Dead linemen?

Yeah, yeah... You switched off the main breaker, but, in your urgency and in
the dark, flipped the WRONG breaker.

Oh, puhleeeze... don't be ridiculous.

If he has enough light (from a flashlight, candle, oil lamp, moonlight,
sunlight, cig lighter, Coleman lantern, jar full of fireflies, or whatever) to
connect the generator, how do you imagine that he can't see which breaker is
the main?

For that matter, even in the dark, how does he not *feel* which breaker is the
main?

And of course it should be obvious that, once the generator is on, there
*will* be lights available to check to make *sure* that the main is off.
Properly install and use a transfer switch or just run some extension cords to
essential appliances during the outage.

Or be aware of the difference between real and imagined hazards, take steps to
prevent the real ones (such as making sure the main breaker is off), and
ignore the imagined ones. Yes, a transfer switch is the right way to do it.
No, you can't just run an extension cord to a furnace or a well pump. In an
emergency, you do what you have to do.


Both the furnace and well pump can be wired to safely except power from
extension cords, in complete compliance with the National Electric Code,
for less than fifty dollars. But you would rather put a similar amount
of money into making a suicide cord. Smart. Real Smart.
--
Tom Horne

Well we aren't no thin blue heroes and yet we aren't no blackguards to.
We're just working men and woman most remarkable like you.

Puddin' Man wrote:
On Fri, 22 Dec 2006 14:23:34 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote:

In article , Jim Redelfs wrote:
In article ,
Puddin' Man wrote:

I switch off the main breaker and use a gas powered 40A generator
to backfeed the 30A (220v) circuit for the elec. dryer.

What can I expect? Live circuits, dead circuits? Overload
conditions??
Dead linemen?

Yeah, yeah... You switched off the main breaker, but, in your urgency and in
the dark, flipped the WRONG breaker.
Oh, puhleeeze... don't be ridiculous.

If he has enough light (from a flashlight, candle, oil lamp, moonlight,
sunlight, cig lighter, Coleman lantern, jar full of fireflies, or whatever) to
connect the generator, how do you imagine that he can't see which breaker is
the main?

For that matter, even in the dark, how does he not *feel* which breaker is the
main?

And of course it should be obvious that, once the generator is on, there
*will* be lights available to check to make *sure* that the main is off.
Properly install and use a transfer switch or just run some extension cords to
essential appliances during the outage.
Or be aware of the difference between real and imagined hazards, take steps to
prevent the real ones (such as making sure the main breaker is off), and
ignore the imagined ones. Yes, a transfer switch is the right way to do it.
No, you can't just run an extension cord to a furnace or a well pump. In an
emergency, you do what you have to do.

Thanks, Doug.

I purchased/installed/wired the svc. panel 21 years ago.
Chose it for it's simplicity. One huge 200A main breaker
in the top, well segregated from smaller breakers.

The entire planet could be plunged into eternal darkness
at the same time that gremlins from outer space put out
my eyes. I could -still- find my way downstairs and identify
the main breaker and switch off with no difficulty.

And if there were any doubt, I'd go outside, snip the seal,
pull the meter, and plop the damned thang down on my
workbench in the basement.

In an emergency, is a no-brainer.

Cheers,
Puddin'

PS: Who believes that linesmen just *grab* conductors without
testing for voltage, etc?
Who believes that 30A, 'tho admittedly dangerous, is really
likely to result in a fatality?

Pease pudding hot,
Pease pudding cold,
Pease pudding in the pot
Nine days old ...

http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/face/In-house/full9005.html
--
Tom Horne

Well we aren't no thin blue heroes and yet we aren't no blackguards to.
We're just working men and woman most remarkable like you.

Pete C. wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:
In article , Goedjn wrote:
PS: Who believes that linesmen just *grab* conductors without
testing for voltage, etc?
Who believes that 30A, 'tho admittedly dangerous, is really
likely to result in a fatality?

Your logic is impeccapble, but linemen have indeed
died that way, which is why the ones that live get
so grumpy about it when they find you with a
non-compliant setup.
Well, maybe so, maybe not. I have very recent experience with that: three
weeks ago exactly, a tree limb fell on my service drop during a windstorm.
When the linemen came out to re-string the service, I asked them if they
wanted me to shut off my generator. Crew boss asked if the main breaker was
open (i.e., off). Told him it was. He said I could leave the genny running.

I'm sure they checked, first, before touching anything... but they did the
entire repair with the generator up.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Right, their comfort level will vary with the situation. In your case
they were dealing with secondary voltage only since it was just your
drop that was down, not primaries on the street. They also only had a
single residence in question, with a generator already running. They
asked and in the process reminded you about the main breaker and also
got some impression of your competence. And of course at 120/240V their
gloves provide plenty of protection even if there was a back feed.

Pete C.

Pete
You ASS/U/ME these folks understand what the implications of those facts
is. Ask puddin to explain the effect of the service transformer on the
output voltage of his suicide cord connected, back fed generator if any
sneak current path should exist between the inside wiring and the
service drop. I'll bet you a hundred in cash that if he does it's
because he learned if after reading my question.
--
Tom Horne

Well we aren't no thin blue heroes and yet we aren't no blackguards to.
We're just working men and woman most remarkable like you.

Pete C. wrote:

Another thought since it's been mentioned is furnaces and well pumps.
I'm not aware of any code requirement that they be hardwired. You can
easily and inexpensively make them cord connected devices with dedicated
outlets, allowing you to readily connect them via extension cords to
your generator.


Furnaces have always been required to be hardwired per (2002) NEC
422.16(A), and have a disconnect at the furnace if it is not within
sight of the distribution panel that supplies the circuit. Also, on
old furnaces that have the old combo fuse/switches, the fuse _is_ the
overload protection for the motor. Installing a cord cap and flexible
cord on that equipment would leave the furnace motor without overload
protection when it is plugged into the generator.

Doug Miller wrote:
In article , Mark Lloyd wrote:
On Fri, 22 Dec 2006 10:10:02 -0600, Puddin' Man
wrote:

Why do you expect perfection? Such a thing doesn't exist, and can't.
There is no way to be 100% certain of not making a mistake.

Garbage.

This...
And if there were any doubt, I'd go outside, snip the seal,
pull the meter, and plop the damned thang down on my
workbench in the basement.

.. is a 100% certain way of not making the mistake of backfeeding the utility
lines.


Doug doesn't understand that not every home is wired the same as his
because if he did he would have to admit that he is giving dangerous
deadly advice. And since Doug's absolute perfection would prevent him
from forgetting to turn off the main breaker it follows that his
absolutely perfect advice applies universally, will never be
misunderstood, and that no one following that advice will ever be
impaired by alcohol, drugs, or even Over The Counter (OTC) cold
medication. You see Doug, and therefor everyone who follows his advice
is much too perfect to ever under any circumstances commit a human error
like a mere mortal such as myself. We should all be awed to be in the
presence of such brilliance.
--
Tom Horne

Well we aren't no thin blue heroes and yet we aren't no blackguards to.
We're just working men and woman most remarkable like you.

Doug Miller wrote:
In article , Mark Lloyd wrote:
On Fri, 22 Dec 2006 19:26:38 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , Mark Lloyd
wrote:
On Fri, 22 Dec 2006 10:10:02 -0600, Puddin' Man
wrote:
Why do you expect perfection? Such a thing doesn't exist, and can't.
There is no way to be 100% certain of not making a mistake.
Garbage.

This...
And if there were any doubt, I'd go outside, snip the seal,
pull the meter, and plop the damned thang down on my
workbench in the basement.
.. is a 100% certain way of not making the mistake of backfeeding the utility
lines.
That is, 100% multiplied by the probability of no mistakes, and that
can NEVER be 100%. Not here. Hot anywhere anything like here.

What, you think there *is* some way to backfeed the utility with the meter
removed? Not unless you deliberately *try* to do it.


Yes there is and linemen have died because of it.
--
Tom Horne

Well we aren't no thin blue heroes and yet we aren't no blackguards to.
We're just working men and woman most remarkable like you.

Pete C. wrote:
"Thomas D. Horne, FF EMT" wrote:
Back feeding your house from a generator through a breaker other than
the main in the panel works perfectly fine. The situation you indicated
with the dryer outlet is not legal due to the lack of a safety interlock
to insure the main is indeed off when power is being back fed through
the dryer outlet. The electrically identical scenario is legal when the
main breaker and the dedicated back feed breaker are interlocked with an
approved device to insure the main is off when the back feed breaker is
on.

Pete C.
The installation you describe is only lawful and safe if the interlock
was installed pursuant to the local electrical code and the installation
was checked very carefully with appropriate test equipment against the
existence of sneak current paths back to the utility side of the main
breaker such as a second meter or utility remote control for water
heating or air conditioning.
--
Tom Horne

Well we aren't no thin blue heroes and yet we aren't no blackguards to.
We're just working men and woman most remarkable like you.

There is no local electrical code, I'm outside city limits. I checked
with the city building folks before my panel replacement project and
they said essentially, have fun, be careful.

The interlock kit is manufactured by Square D and is rated and approved
for the Square D panel it is installed in. There are no secondary meters
or utility remotes anywhere around here and the same potential issues
with them would apply regardless of whether a transfer switch or
interlock kit were used.

Pete C.

That's why the main breaker should be megged after the interlock is
installed to check for sneak current paths.
--
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
for general use." Thomas Alva Edison

"Tom Horne, Electrician" wrote:

Pete C. wrote:
"Thomas D. Horne, FF EMT" wrote:
Back feeding your house from a generator through a breaker other than
the main in the panel works perfectly fine. The situation you indicated
with the dryer outlet is not legal due to the lack of a safety interlock
to insure the main is indeed off when power is being back fed through
the dryer outlet. The electrically identical scenario is legal when the
main breaker and the dedicated back feed breaker are interlocked with an
approved device to insure the main is off when the back feed breaker is
on.

Pete C.
The installation you describe is only lawful and safe if the interlock
was installed pursuant to the local electrical code and the installation
was checked very carefully with appropriate test equipment against the
existence of sneak current paths back to the utility side of the main
breaker such as a second meter or utility remote control for water
heating or air conditioning.
--
Tom Horne

Well we aren't no thin blue heroes and yet we aren't no blackguards to.
We're just working men and woman most remarkable like you.

There is no local electrical code, I'm outside city limits. I checked
with the city building folks before my panel replacement project and
they said essentially, have fun, be careful.

The interlock kit is manufactured by Square D and is rated and approved
for the Square D panel it is installed in. There are no secondary meters
or utility remotes anywhere around here and the same potential issues
with them would apply regardless of whether a transfer switch or
interlock kit were used.

Pete C.

That's why the main breaker should be megged after the interlock is
installed to check for sneak current paths.
--
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
for general use." Thomas Alva Edison

I think I'll just trust a brand new Square D 200A breaker. I have never,
ever heard of anyone inspecting a residential electrical panel and
testing breakers with a megger.

Pete C.

volts500 wrote:

Pete C. wrote:

Another thought since it's been mentioned is furnaces and well pumps.
I'm not aware of any code requirement that they be hardwired. You can
easily and inexpensively make them cord connected devices with dedicated
outlets, allowing you to readily connect them via extension cords to
your generator.

Furnaces have always been required to be hardwired per (2002) NEC
422.16(A), and have a disconnect at the furnace if it is not within
sight of the distribution panel that supplies the circuit. Also, on
old furnaces that have the old combo fuse/switches, the fuse _is_ the
overload protection for the motor. Installing a cord cap and flexible
cord on that equipment would leave the furnace motor without overload
protection when it is plugged into the generator.

WTF are you talking about? I have the 2002 NEC in front of me, open to
article 422.16(a) and it in no way indicates a furnace needs to be
hardwired.

Pete C.

Pete C. wrote:
volts500 wrote:

Pete C. wrote:

Another thought since it's been mentioned is furnaces and well pumps.
I'm not aware of any code requirement that they be hardwired. You can
easily and inexpensively make them cord connected devices with dedicated
outlets, allowing you to readily connect them via extension cords to
your generator.

Furnaces have always been required to be hardwired per (2002) NEC
422.16(A), and have a disconnect at the furnace if it is not within
sight of the distribution panel that supplies the circuit. Also, on
old furnaces that have the old combo fuse/switches, the fuse _is_ the
overload protection for the motor. Installing a cord cap and flexible
cord on that equipment would leave the furnace motor without overload
protection when it is plugged into the generator.

WTF are you talking about? I have the 2002 NEC in front of me, open to
article 422.16(a) and it in no way indicates a furnace needs to be
hardwired.

Is a furnace an electrical appliance? (422.1)

Are furnaces FREQUENTLY interchanged?

Are the fastening means and mechanical connections for furnaces
specifically designed to permit _ready_ removal for maintinance and
repair?

If you can answer the last two questions yes, then a flexible cord is
permitted on a furnace, even then it would have to come from the
factory with a flexible cord. Same reason for well pumps, water
heaters, etc.

Better yet, show me the code cite that says that they _don't_ have to
be hardwired.

Quoted from 2002 NEC:

"422.16 Flexible Cords.
(A) General. Flexible cord shall be permitted (1) for the connection
of appliances to facilitate their FREQUENT interchange or to prevent
transmission of noise or vibration or (2) to facilitate the removal or
disconnection of appliances that are fastened in place, where the
fastening means and mechanical connections are SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED to
permit READY removal for maintenance or repair AND the appliance is
intended or identified for flexible cord connection."

In article . net, wrote:

I was there in Silver Spring, MD during the late nineties ice storm when
the outside superintendent took a climbing harness out of the trunk of
his sedan and climbed a pole in order to drop the service drop for an
offending house into the front yard. They could not get power back
until a master electrician certified that their property was free of any
uncontrolled energy source connected to it's wiring. The home is now
powered through an manual transfer switch which the owner had to install
at his own expense.

Makes perfect sense to me... but it's not quite the same situation as the "you
will never get service again" claim that I said sounded like an urban legend.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

In article . net, "Thomas D. Horne, FF EMT" wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:

What, you think there *is* some way to backfeed the utility with the meter
removed? Not unless you deliberately *try* to do it.


Yes there is and linemen have died because of it.

OK, you want to explain that one?

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

volts500 wrote:

Pete C. wrote:
volts500 wrote:

Pete C. wrote:

Another thought since it's been mentioned is furnaces and well pumps.
I'm not aware of any code requirement that they be hardwired. You can
easily and inexpensively make them cord connected devices with dedicated
outlets, allowing you to readily connect them via extension cords to
your generator.

Furnaces have always been required to be hardwired per (2002) NEC
422.16(A), and have a disconnect at the furnace if it is not within
sight of the distribution panel that supplies the circuit. Also, on
old furnaces that have the old combo fuse/switches, the fuse _is_ the
overload protection for the motor. Installing a cord cap and flexible
cord on that equipment would leave the furnace motor without overload
protection when it is plugged into the generator.

WTF are you talking about? I have the 2002 NEC in front of me, open to
article 422.16(a) and it in no way indicates a furnace needs to be
hardwired.

Is a furnace an electrical appliance? (422.1)

Are furnaces FREQUENTLY interchanged?

Are the fastening means and mechanical connections for furnaces
specifically designed to permit _ready_ removal for maintinance and
repair?

If you can answer the last two questions yes, then a flexible cord is
permitted on a furnace, even then it would have to come from the
factory with a flexible cord. Same reason for well pumps, water
heaters, etc.

Better yet, show me the code cite that says that they _don't_ have to
be hardwired.

Quoted from 2002 NEC:

"422.16 Flexible Cords.
(A) General. Flexible cord shall be permitted (1) for the connection
of appliances to facilitate their FREQUENT interchange or to prevent
transmission of noise or vibration or (2) to facilitate the removal or
disconnection of appliances that are fastened in place, where the
fastening means and mechanical connections are SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED to
permit READY removal for maintenance or repair AND the appliance is
intended or identified for flexible cord connection."


Read: "or to prevent transmission of noise or vibration". That's all the
justification I need. And yes, any installation I have anything to do
with has plumbing unions and whatnot to facilitate easy removal as well.

Pete C.

Pete C. wrote:

Quoted from 2002 NEC:

"422.16 Flexible Cords.
(A) General. Flexible cord shall be permitted (1) for the connection
of appliances to facilitate their FREQUENT interchange or to prevent
transmission of noise or vibration or (2) to facilitate the removal or
disconnection of appliances that are fastened in place, where the
fastening means and mechanical connections are SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED to
permit READY removal for maintenance or repair AND the appliance is
intended or identified for flexible cord connection."


Read: "or to prevent transmission of noise or vibration". That's all the
justification I need. And yes, any installation I have anything to do
with has plumbing unions and whatnot to facilitate easy removal as well.

Pete C

It's not like you're wiring a primary crusher and its' accessory motors
in a mine. THAT would be a reason to use flexible cord. This thread
is already pervaded with misinformation and gerry rigging, don't add to
it.

Why are millions of furnaces hard-wired? Why does Article 424 (Fixed
Electric Space-Heating Equipment), specifically, 424.19 Disconnecting
Means, make absolutely _no_ mention of using a flexible cord and cord
cap as a disconnecting means while other Articles in the NEC do allow a
flexible cord with a cord cap to be a disconnect for certain equipment?
Could it be because wiring a fixed space heating equipment with
flexible cord and a cord cap isn't even a consideration in the eyes of
the NEC?

volts500 wrote:

Pete C. wrote:

Quoted from 2002 NEC:

"422.16 Flexible Cords.
(A) General. Flexible cord shall be permitted (1) for the connection
of appliances to facilitate their FREQUENT interchange or to prevent
transmission of noise or vibration or (2) to facilitate the removal or
disconnection of appliances that are fastened in place, where the
fastening means and mechanical connections are SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED to
permit READY removal for maintenance or repair AND the appliance is
intended or identified for flexible cord connection."


Read: "or to prevent transmission of noise or vibration". That's all the
justification I need. And yes, any installation I have anything to do
with has plumbing unions and whatnot to facilitate easy removal as well.

Pete C

It's not like you're wiring a primary crusher and its' accessory motors
in a mine. THAT would be a reason to use flexible cord. This thread
is already pervaded with misinformation and gerry rigging, don't add to
it.

Why are millions of furnaces hard-wired? Why does Article 424 (Fixed
Electric Space-Heating Equipment), specifically, 424.19 Disconnecting
Means, make absolutely _no_ mention of using a flexible cord and cord
cap as a disconnecting means while other Articles in the NEC do allow a
flexible cord with a cord cap to be a disconnect for certain equipment?
Could it be because wiring a fixed space heating equipment with
flexible cord and a cord cap isn't even a consideration in the eyes of
the NEC?

How do you explain article 424.3(a) which specifically references branch
circuits supplying *outlets* for fixed electric space heating equipment?

Pete C.

Pete C. wrote:
volts500 wrote:

Pete C. wrote:

Quoted from 2002 NEC:

"422.16 Flexible Cords.
(A) General. Flexible cord shall be permitted (1) for the connection
of appliances to facilitate their FREQUENT interchange or to prevent
transmission of noise or vibration or (2) to facilitate the removal or
disconnection of appliances that are fastened in place, where the
fastening means and mechanical connections are SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED to
permit READY removal for maintenance or repair AND the appliance is
intended or identified for flexible cord connection."


Read: "or to prevent transmission of noise or vibration". That's all the
justification I need. And yes, any installation I have anything to do
with has plumbing unions and whatnot to facilitate easy removal as well.

Pete C

It's not like you're wiring a primary crusher and its' accessory motors
in a mine. THAT would be a reason to use flexible cord. This thread
is already pervaded with misinformation and gerry rigging, don't add to
it.

Why are millions of furnaces hard-wired? Why does Article 424 (Fixed
Electric Space-Heating Equipment), specifically, 424.19 Disconnecting
Means, make absolutely _no_ mention of using a flexible cord and cord
cap as a disconnecting means while other Articles in the NEC do allow a
flexible cord with a cord cap to be a disconnect for certain equipment?
Could it be because wiring a fixed space heating equipment with
flexible cord and a cord cap isn't even a consideration in the eyes of
the NEC?

How do you explain article 424.3(a) which specifically references branch
circuits supplying *outlets* for fixed electric space heating equipment?

Pete C.

Outlets are not necessarily receptacles. The NEC defines an outlet in
Article 100 as: "A point on the wiring system at which current is taken
to supply utilization equipment."

On Sat, 23 Dec 2006 19:49:47 GMT, "Tom Horne, Electrician" wrote:

Doug Miller wrote:
In article . com, wrote:
Puddin' Man wrote:

I have a 21 yr-old Cutler-Hammer panel that I installed myself back
around 1984.

No doubt there's numerous houses in which an interlock kit would
make sense. But there's nobody here but po' me, and, to my knowledge,
I don't need to idiot-proof the damned thang. Before any gas
generator were connected, the main breaker -would- be switched
off. And it would stay off until the gen. was removed.
It's your choice. With my electrical utility, if you "tickle" a
lineman, they will stop work, trace down where the electricity is
coming from, cut your lines off, and you will NEVER get electrical
service again. It's a union thing. They will blacklist your address.

Sounds like an urban legend to me...


I was there in Silver Spring, MD during the late nineties ice storm when
the outside superintendent took a climbing harness out of the trunk of
his sedan and climbed a pole in order to drop the service drop for an
offending house into the front yard. They could not get power back
until a master electrician certified that their property was free of any
uncontrolled energy source connected to it's wiring. The home is now
powered through an manual transfer switch which the owner had to install
at his own expense.

I can't speak to either of these. If either actually occurred,
p'raps there was some justification, p'raps not.

How-sum-ever ...

Scenario:

Tiny house with obviously minimal standard residential power lines,
main breaker svc. panel in good condition. Single occupant, who
wired the panel, installed pigtails, etc. Lives like a hermit,
no non-service folks are allowed on property.

Elec. utility fails contract to supply power, massive outage ensues.
Temp. is "Nine Below Zero" (which is also the title of an old
blues tune ...). Obvious emergency.

Hermit determines (via past experience) that power could be out
for many days. Situates little 40A gas generator in back yard.
Switches main breaker off. Clips seal, removes meter, stores
such inside house.

Back feeds svc. panel via 40A socket on elec. dryer. Does "the
arithmetic of amperage" quite handily. Generally runs only 'fridge,
furnace blower and a few lights.

Utility supervisor arrives. Hermit offers to do anything in short-term:
allow inspection of svc. panel, shut down generator, hand over meter, etc.

Utility supervisor disconnects power line from house, nominally
because hermit is in possession of generator which could, if
not properly used, endanger linemen. Sez $1000+ of work must
be done on hermits eqpt (knowing noone is available to do it).

How to explain such action:

A.) Action was valid. No homeowner can be trusted in any circumstance
(potentially including the linemen and supv., as most of them are
homeowners).

B.) 'Tis simply customer abuse. We see it in both the public and
private sectors. The problem is on their side of the fence,
the emergency is obvious, but they, with monopoly power,
refuse to even talk to the folks that they purportedly serve.

You be the judge!

Glad to note that I've not heard of any such insanities hereabouts.

Salud,
Puddin'

"Every generator sold to a residential customer is another testament
to the inedequacy of one or more electrical utilities."

Pease pudding hot,
Pease pudding cold,
Pease pudding in the pot
Nine days old ...