I knew I had a problem yesterday morning when the furnace didn't come on at
the usual 6:30 time where it progresses from the thermostat's nighttime
setting into the waking time setting.

Investigation revealed about half the house was without power, and half
normal. I quickly ran extension cords to power the critical items (furnace,
refrigerator, computer) to working outlets. Clearly one leg of the 120v
supply was out. After cycling all the breakers, including the master, without
success I decided it was time to pick an electrician out of the phone book,
and the firm promised someone within an hour.

While waiting outside for the electrician, a neighbor came out with exactly
the same complaint. I knew then that it was a utility company problem, but
having commited to the service call decided there was no harm other than a few
$$$ in having the issue confirmed. (Turned out to be a burnt wire in an
underground connection vault, and it took them until 10:30 in the evening to
restore full power.)

The gentleman was quickly able to confirm my hypothesis, but then pointed out
some alleged issues in my breaker box. I personally choose not to fool with
breaker boxes, other than tightening the screws on the blasted aluminum wire
once every year or so; I'm comfortable with wiring and conduit manipulation
and the like, but feel breaker boxes are left to pros.

He pointed out one breaker which had two wires going into it. Being copper, I
knew this was a circuit I had had (professionally) added in the past, but
being on the nonfunctional leg neither he nor I could determine what was being
powered from this breaker. He claimed that was highly dangerous. Now that I
have power again, I'll be able to ascertain what's being powered from that
breaker, but my question is: is this automatically a Highly Bad Thing, or are
there instances where two wires into one breaker is a legitimate installation?
He wanted $450 to correct this, which given the triviality of snapping two
breakers into a box and connecting a wire to each seemed to me to be a ripoff
in the making, so I declined. He also suggested that since many of the
breakers were quite old (it's a 1969 house, although some circuits have been
added over the years), and since replacing them all would be expensive, that I
have him "lubricate" the breakers. I had visions of duct-cleaning "services"
in my head, and simply sent him on his merry way after paying the basic
service fee. Was he blowing smoke, or did he know something about circuit
breakers not apparent to me?

Art

Arthur Shapiro wrote:
I knew I had a problem yesterday morning when the furnace didn't come on at
the usual 6:30 time where it progresses from the thermostat's nighttime
setting into the waking time setting.

Investigation revealed about half the house was without power, and half
normal. I quickly ran extension cords to power the critical items (furnace,
refrigerator, computer) to working outlets. Clearly one leg of the 120v
supply was out. After cycling all the breakers, including the master, without
success I decided it was time to pick an electrician out of the phone book,
and the firm promised someone within an hour.

While waiting outside for the electrician, a neighbor came out with exactly
the same complaint. I knew then that it was a utility company problem, but
having commited to the service call decided there was no harm other than a few
$$$ in having the issue confirmed. (Turned out to be a burnt wire in an
underground connection vault, and it took them until 10:30 in the evening to
restore full power.)

The gentleman was quickly able to confirm my hypothesis, but then pointed out
some alleged issues in my breaker box. I personally choose not to fool with
breaker boxes, other than tightening the screws on the blasted aluminum wire
once every year or so; I'm comfortable with wiring and conduit manipulation
and the like, but feel breaker boxes are left to pros.

He pointed out one breaker which had two wires going into it. Being copper, I
knew this was a circuit I had had (professionally) added in the past, but
being on the nonfunctional leg neither he nor I could determine what was being
powered from this breaker. He claimed that was highly dangerous. Now that I
have power again, I'll be able to ascertain what's being powered from that
breaker, but my question is: is this automatically a Highly Bad Thing, or are
there instances where two wires into one breaker is a legitimate installation?
He wanted $450 to correct this, which given the triviality of snapping two
breakers into a box and connecting a wire to each seemed to me to be a ripoff
in the making, so I declined. He also suggested that since many of the
breakers were quite old (it's a 1969 house, although some circuits have been
added over the years), and since replacing them all would be expensive, that I
have him "lubricate" the breakers. I had visions of duct-cleaning "services"
in my head, and simply sent him on his merry way after paying the basic
service fee. Was he blowing smoke, or did he know something about circuit
breakers not apparent to me?

Art

Hi, my little book on basic home wiring repairs says having two wires
on a screw down connection is not a good idea. It suggests a pigtail
and wire nut .

That said I have much the same in my breaker box.

I have heard suggestions that breakers be manually thrown and reset to
ensure they are functioning corectly about once a year. The lubrication
thing sounds reasonable to me for a mechanical device if in a high dust
area . After all I lubricate hinges , locksets , and stuff regularly. A
breaker inside a box though I dont know. I would have thought that
hinge points would be self lubricating materials .

Your post is a good tip though . If you lose one phase of the supply,
every other breaker its probably a supply problem .

In article ,
(Arthur Shapiro) wrote:

one breaker which had two wires going into it.
is this automatically a Highly Bad Thing

No.

The suggestion to "pigtail" the arrangement (one wire attached to the breaker
with a "three-way", just beyond the breaker, done with a wire nut) is probably
better. However, BOTH techniques are somewhat of a kludge, especially if
there are available (open) slots for additional breakers or one (or more)
single breakers that can be swapped-out with a double in the same space.

"lubricate" the breakers.

That's a new one to me. It's probably in the same league as a muffler
bearing. I am unaware of HOW one might actually lubricate a circuit breaker
in the unlikely event that such is possible, much less necessary.

Was he blowing smoke

Probably. Get a second, professional opinion AFTER the breaker(s) starts
malfunctioning.
--

JR

No project too small
All projects too big

I vote for smoke on this one.

Arthur Shapiro wrote:
I knew I had a problem yesterday morning when the furnace didn't come on at
the usual 6:30 time where it progresses from the thermostat's nighttime
setting into the waking time setting.

Investigation revealed about half the house was without power, and half
normal. I quickly ran extension cords to power the critical items (furnace,
refrigerator, computer) to working outlets. Clearly one leg of the 120v
supply was out. After cycling all the breakers, including the master, without
success I decided it was time to pick an electrician out of the phone book,
and the firm promised someone within an hour.

While waiting outside for the electrician, a neighbor came out with exactly
the same complaint. I knew then that it was a utility company problem, but
having commited to the service call decided there was no harm other than a few
$$$ in having the issue confirmed. (Turned out to be a burnt wire in an
underground connection vault, and it took them until 10:30 in the evening to
restore full power.)

The gentleman was quickly able to confirm my hypothesis, but then pointed out
some alleged issues in my breaker box. I personally choose not to fool with
breaker boxes, other than tightening the screws on the blasted aluminum wire
once every year or so; I'm comfortable with wiring and conduit manipulation
and the like, but feel breaker boxes are left to pros.

He pointed out one breaker which had two wires going into it. Being copper, I
knew this was a circuit I had had (professionally) added in the past, but
being on the nonfunctional leg neither he nor I could determine what was being
powered from this breaker. He claimed that was highly dangerous. Now that I
have power again, I'll be able to ascertain what's being powered from that
breaker, but my question is: is this automatically a Highly Bad Thing, or are
there instances where two wires into one breaker is a legitimate installation?
He wanted $450 to correct this, which given the triviality of snapping two
breakers into a box and connecting a wire to each seemed to me to be a ripoff
in the making, so I declined. He also suggested that since many of the
breakers were quite old (it's a 1969 house, although some circuits have been
added over the years), and since replacing them all would be expensive, that I
have him "lubricate" the breakers. I had visions of duct-cleaning "services"
in my head, and simply sent him on his merry way after paying the basic
service fee. Was he blowing smoke, or did he know something about circuit
breakers not apparent to me?

Art

"Arthur Shapiro" wrote in message
...
I knew I had a problem yesterday morning when the furnace didn't come on at
the usual 6:30 time where it progresses from the thermostat's nighttime
setting into the waking time setting.

Investigation revealed about half the house was without power, and half
normal. I quickly ran extension cords to power the critical items
(furnace,
refrigerator, computer) to working outlets. Clearly one leg of the 120v
supply was out. After cycling all the breakers, including the master,
without
success I decided it was time to pick an electrician out of the phone
book,
and the firm promised someone within an hour.

While waiting outside for the electrician, a neighbor came out with
exactly
the same complaint. I knew then that it was a utility company problem,
but
having commited to the service call decided there was no harm other than a
few
$$$ in having the issue confirmed. (Turned out to be a burnt wire in an
underground connection vault, and it took them until 10:30 in the evening
to
restore full power.)

The gentleman was quickly able to confirm my hypothesis, but then pointed
out
some alleged issues in my breaker box. I personally choose not to fool
with
breaker boxes, other than tightening the screws on the blasted aluminum
wire
once every year or so; I'm comfortable with wiring and conduit
manipulation
and the like, but feel breaker boxes are left to pros.

He pointed out one breaker which had two wires going into it. Being
copper, I
knew this was a circuit I had had (professionally) added in the past, but
being on the nonfunctional leg neither he nor I could determine what was
being
powered from this breaker. He claimed that was highly dangerous. Now
that I
have power again, I'll be able to ascertain what's being powered from that
breaker, but my question is: is this automatically a Highly Bad Thing, or
are
there instances where two wires into one breaker is a legitimate
installation?
He wanted $450 to correct this, which given the triviality of snapping two
breakers into a box and connecting a wire to each seemed to me to be a
ripoff
in the making, so I declined. He also suggested that since many of the
breakers were quite old (it's a 1969 house, although some circuits have
been
added over the years), and since replacing them all would be expensive,
that I
have him "lubricate" the breakers. I had visions of duct-cleaning
"services"
in my head, and simply sent him on his merry way after paying the basic
service fee. Was he blowing smoke, or did he know something about circuit
breakers not apparent to me?

If the breaker is rated for 2 wires, it is not a problem. If not, then you
can pigtail.
I am assuming that the breaker is properly rated for the smaller of the two
circuits. While that seems obvious, my cottage had three 20a circuits going
to a 50a breaker. Very dangerous.
The other issue is capacity; had they installed a 20a breaker at my cottage
the load on the three circuits would have tripped the breaker. I had to put
them on three 20a breakers.

Personally I would split it up. In all likelihood you can resolve it for
$10 and 5 minutes work. It is probably easier than putting an outlet in.
People are scared of the breaker box cause there is so much power there, but
120v is 120v. (I know there is 240v at the box, but you would have to
really try to contact more than 120v)

I have never heard of old breakers being dangerous or lubricating them, and
I surely wouldn't do anything to them that the manufacturer didn't
recommend. But if you are concerned, you can probably replace them all for
$100 in an hour.
As a matter of fact, I just had a 1965 breaker trip when a mouse chewed
through a wire and shorted it.

Arthur Shapiro wrote:
I knew I had a problem yesterday morning when the furnace didn't come on at
the usual 6:30 time where it progresses from the thermostat's nighttime
setting into the waking time setting.

Investigation revealed about half the house was without power, and half
normal. I quickly ran extension cords to power the critical items (furnace,
refrigerator, computer) to working outlets. Clearly one leg of the 120v
supply was out. After cycling all the breakers, including the master, without
success I decided it was time to pick an electrician out of the phone book,
and the firm promised someone within an hour.

While waiting outside for the electrician, a neighbor came out with exactly
the same complaint. I knew then that it was a utility company problem, but
having commited to the service call decided there was no harm other than a few
$$$ in having the issue confirmed. (Turned out to be a burnt wire in an
underground connection vault, and it took them until 10:30 in the evening to
restore full power.)

The gentleman was quickly able to confirm my hypothesis, but then pointed out
some alleged issues in my breaker box. I personally choose not to fool with
breaker boxes, other than tightening the screws on the blasted aluminum wire
once every year or so; I'm comfortable with wiring and conduit manipulation
and the like, but feel breaker boxes are left to pros.

He pointed out one breaker which had two wires going into it. Being copper, I
knew this was a circuit I had had (professionally) added in the past, but
being on the nonfunctional leg neither he nor I could determine what was being
powered from this breaker. He claimed that was highly dangerous. Now that I
have power again, I'll be able to ascertain what's being powered from that
breaker, but my question is: is this automatically a Highly Bad Thing, or are
there instances where two wires into one breaker is a legitimate installation?
He wanted $450 to correct this, which given the triviality of snapping two
breakers into a box and connecting a wire to each seemed to me to be a ripoff
in the making, so I declined. He also suggested that since many of the
breakers were quite old (it's a 1969 house, although some circuits have been
added over the years), and since replacing them all would be expensive, that I
have him "lubricate" the breakers. I had visions of duct-cleaning "services"
in my head, and simply sent him on his merry way after paying the basic
service fee. Was he blowing smoke, or did he know something about circuit
breakers not apparent to me?

Art

Sounds totally bogus. In that a screw terminal will grab two similar
single-strand
Cu wires just as well as one. Only possible reason for splitting wires,
IMHO, would depend
on the circuits fed. $450 for popping in one breaker? End of
discussion.

When power's back on, you can check the draw on each wire with clamp-on
ammeter,
and see what's happening there. I assume you know what all the loads
are on that feed.

Lubricating breakers? Right.

OTOH, you mention Al wiring. I'd save up all small change to pay for
verifying, changing
all connections to safe ones; properly crimp on pigtails, whatever. Al
connections are a
huge danger.

J

"Arthur Shapiro" wrote in message
...


While waiting outside for the electrician, a neighbor came out with
exactly
the same complaint. I knew then that it was a utility company problem....

I'm just watching this discussion, but maybe someone can explain how a
problem with the utility's equipment could cause just half a house to go
dead.

"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message
...
"Arthur Shapiro" wrote in message
...


While waiting outside for the electrician, a neighbor came out with
exactly
the same complaint. I knew then that it was a utility company
problem....

I'm just watching this discussion, but maybe someone can explain how a
problem with the utility's equipment could cause just half a house to go
dead.
You have two 120v circuits going to your house. Half the house's 120v
circuits are on each. It is important not to use any 240v devices while
there is a problem, since they would only get 120v.

"Toller" wrote in message
...

"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message
...
"Arthur Shapiro" wrote in message
...


While waiting outside for the electrician, a neighbor came out with
exactly
the same complaint. I knew then that it was a utility company
problem....

I'm just watching this discussion, but maybe someone can explain how a
problem with the utility's equipment could cause just half a house to go
dead.
You have two 120v circuits going to your house. Half the house's 120v
circuits are on each. It is important not to use any 240v devices while
there is a problem, since they would only get 120v.


Thanks.

JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
"Arthur Shapiro" wrote in message
...


While waiting outside for the electrician, a neighbor came out with
exactly
the same complaint. I knew then that it was a utility company
problem....

I'm just watching this discussion, but maybe someone can explain how a
problem with the utility's equipment could cause just half a house to
go dead.

In the words of Mad Max: "There's a big difference between all dead and
mostly dead."

There are two phases dropped to the house, 120 each. If you lose one, you
still have the other. Circuit breaker boxes are designed to alternate the
phases to successive breakers. When you lose one phase, roughly half the
120v circuits go dead.

As to how the power company can lose a phase, think a half-fried
transformer. But sometimes they just lose things. About twenty years ago,
the light company lost one of my payments for about a year.

Why not pull that breaker and install a tandem breaker? Or move one wire to
another breaker? That way the two circuits each have their own breaker.



"Arthur Shapiro" wrote in message
...
I knew I had a problem yesterday morning when the furnace didn't come on at
the usual 6:30 time where it progresses from the thermostat's nighttime
setting into the waking time setting.

Investigation revealed about half the house was without power, and half
normal. I quickly ran extension cords to power the critical items
(furnace,
refrigerator, computer) to working outlets. Clearly one leg of the 120v
supply was out. After cycling all the breakers, including the master,
without
success I decided it was time to pick an electrician out of the phone
book,
and the firm promised someone within an hour.

While waiting outside for the electrician, a neighbor came out with
exactly
the same complaint. I knew then that it was a utility company problem,
but
having commited to the service call decided there was no harm other than a
few
$$$ in having the issue confirmed. (Turned out to be a burnt wire in an
underground connection vault, and it took them until 10:30 in the evening
to
restore full power.)

The gentleman was quickly able to confirm my hypothesis, but then pointed
out
some alleged issues in my breaker box. I personally choose not to fool
with
breaker boxes, other than tightening the screws on the blasted aluminum
wire
once every year or so; I'm comfortable with wiring and conduit
manipulation
and the like, but feel breaker boxes are left to pros.

He pointed out one breaker which had two wires going into it. Being
copper, I
knew this was a circuit I had had (professionally) added in the past, but
being on the nonfunctional leg neither he nor I could determine what was
being
powered from this breaker. He claimed that was highly dangerous. Now
that I
have power again, I'll be able to ascertain what's being powered from that
breaker, but my question is: is this automatically a Highly Bad Thing, or
are
there instances where two wires into one breaker is a legitimate
installation?
He wanted $450 to correct this, which given the triviality of snapping two
breakers into a box and connecting a wire to each seemed to me to be a
ripoff
in the making, so I declined. He also suggested that since many of the
breakers were quite old (it's a 1969 house, although some circuits have
been
added over the years), and since replacing them all would be expensive,
that I
have him "lubricate" the breakers. I had visions of duct-cleaning
"services"
in my head, and simply sent him on his merry way after paying the basic
service fee. Was he blowing smoke, or did he know something about circuit
breakers not apparent to me?

Art

Arthur Shapiro wrote:

I knew I had a problem yesterday morning when the furnace didn't come on at
the usual 6:30 time where it progresses from the thermostat's nighttime
setting into the waking time setting.

Investigation revealed about half the house was without power, and half
normal. I quickly ran extension cords to power the critical items (furnace,
refrigerator, computer) to working outlets. Clearly one leg of the 120v
supply was out. After cycling all the breakers, including the master, without
success I decided it was time to pick an electrician out of the phone book,
and the firm promised someone within an hour.

While waiting outside for the electrician, a neighbor came out with exactly
the same complaint. I knew then that it was a utility company problem, but
having commited to the service call decided there was no harm other than a few
$$$ in having the issue confirmed. (Turned out to be a burnt wire in an
underground connection vault, and it took them until 10:30 in the evening to
restore full power.)

The gentleman was quickly able to confirm my hypothesis, but then pointed out
some alleged issues in my breaker box. I personally choose not to fool with
breaker boxes, other than tightening the screws on the blasted aluminum wire
once every year or so; I'm comfortable with wiring and conduit manipulation
and the like, but feel breaker boxes are left to pros.

He pointed out one breaker which had two wires going into it. Being copper, I
knew this was a circuit I had had (professionally) added in the past, but
being on the nonfunctional leg neither he nor I could determine what was being
powered from this breaker. He claimed that was highly dangerous. Now that I
have power again, I'll be able to ascertain what's being powered from that
breaker, but my question is: is this automatically a Highly Bad Thing, or are
there instances where two wires into one breaker is a legitimate installation?
He wanted $450 to correct this, which given the triviality of snapping two
breakers into a box and connecting a wire to each seemed to me to be a ripoff
in the making, so I declined. He also suggested that since many of the
breakers were quite old (it's a 1969 house, although some circuits have been
added over the years), and since replacing them all would be expensive, that I
have him "lubricate" the breakers. I had visions of duct-cleaning "services"
in my head, and simply sent him on his merry way after paying the basic
service fee. Was he blowing smoke, or did he know something about circuit
breakers not apparent to me?

Art

Having 2 wires on a single breaker is a code violation unless the
breaker is rated for 2 wires - some SquardD ones are. It is not "highly
dangerous" and is very easy to fix by pigtailing as about everyone has said.

I have not heard of lubricating breakers. I very much doubt is possible
to lubricate breakers. If it is possible, it is probably a bad idea. The
whole thing smells like a scam.

A good site for general information on aluminum wire is:
http://www.inspect-ny.com/aluminum/
Much of the information is derived from the Consumer Product Safety
Commission, which did a lot of work on aluminum wiring.
IMHO the best link is:
http://www.inspect-ny.com/aluminum/alreduce.htm
This is a paper writen by an engineer who did extensive testing of
aluminum connections for the CPSC, and includes many options for what to
do with aluminum wiring.

--
bud--

Yeah, me too. If it ain't broke, don't fix it...

061220 1532 - 7 LAMPSTICKS 7 FEASTS 7 AGES OF DISPENSATION posted:


I vote for smoke on this one.

Arthur Shapiro wrote:
I knew I had a problem yesterday morning when the furnace didn't come on at
the usual 6:30 time where it progresses from the thermostat's nighttime
setting into the waking time setting.

Investigation revealed about half the house was without power, and half
normal. I quickly ran extension cords to power the critical items (furnace,
refrigerator, computer) to working outlets. Clearly one leg of the 120v
supply was out. After cycling all the breakers, including the master,
without
success I decided it was time to pick an electrician out of the phone book,
and the firm promised someone within an hour.

While waiting outside for the electrician, a neighbor came out with exactly
the same complaint. I knew then that it was a utility company problem, but
having commited to the service call decided there was no harm other than a
few
$$$ in having the issue confirmed. (Turned out to be a burnt wire in an
underground connection vault, and it took them until 10:30 in the evening to
restore full power.)

The gentleman was quickly able to confirm my hypothesis, but then pointed out
some alleged issues in my breaker box. I personally choose not to fool with
breaker boxes, other than tightening the screws on the blasted aluminum wire
once every year or so; I'm comfortable with wiring and conduit manipulation
and the like, but feel breaker boxes are left to pros.

He pointed out one breaker which had two wires going into it. Being copper,
I
knew this was a circuit I had had (professionally) added in the past, but
being on the nonfunctional leg neither he nor I could determine what was
being
powered from this breaker. He claimed that was highly dangerous. Now that I
have power again, I'll be able to ascertain what's being powered from that
breaker, but my question is: is this automatically a Highly Bad Thing, or are
there instances where two wires into one breaker is a legitimate
installation?
He wanted $450 to correct this, which given the triviality of snapping two
breakers into a box and connecting a wire to each seemed to me to be a ripoff
in the making, so I declined. He also suggested that since many of the
breakers were quite old (it's a 1969 house, although some circuits have been
added over the years), and since replacing them all would be expensive, that
I
have him "lubricate" the breakers. I had visions of duct-cleaning "services"
in my head, and simply sent him on his merry way after paying the basic
service fee. Was he blowing smoke, or did he know something about circuit
breakers not apparent to me?

Art

On Wed, 20 Dec 2006 19:38:59 GMT, (Arthur
Shapiro) wrote:

I knew I had a problem yesterday morning when the furnace didn't come on at
the usual 6:30 time where it progresses from the thermostat's nighttime
setting into the waking time setting.

Investigation revealed about half the house was without power, and half
normal. I quickly ran extension cords to power the critical items (furnace,
refrigerator, computer) to working outlets. Clearly one leg of the 120v
supply was out. After cycling all the breakers, including the master, without
success I decided it was time to pick an electrician out of the phone book,
and the firm promised someone within an hour.

While waiting outside for the electrician, a neighbor came out with exactly
the same complaint. I knew then that it was a utility company problem, but
having commited to the service call decided there was no harm other than a few
$$$ in having the issue confirmed. (Turned out to be a burnt wire in an
underground connection vault, and it took them until 10:30 in the evening to
restore full power.)

The gentleman was quickly able to confirm my hypothesis, but then pointed out
some alleged issues in my breaker box. I personally choose not to fool with
breaker boxes, other than tightening the screws on the blasted aluminum wire
once every year or so; I'm comfortable with wiring and conduit manipulation
and the like, but feel breaker boxes are left to pros.

He pointed out one breaker which had two wires going into it. Being copper, I
knew this was a circuit I had had (professionally) added in the past, but
being on the nonfunctional leg neither he nor I could determine what was being
powered from this breaker. He claimed that was highly dangerous. Now that I
have power again, I'll be able to ascertain what's being powered from that
breaker, but my question is: is this automatically a Highly Bad Thing, or are
there instances where two wires into one breaker is a legitimate installation?
He wanted $450 to correct this, which given the triviality of snapping two
breakers into a box and connecting a wire to each seemed to me to be a ripoff
in the making, so I declined. He also suggested that since many of the
breakers were quite old (it's a 1969 house, although some circuits have been
added over the years), and since replacing them all would be expensive, that I
have him "lubricate" the breakers. I had visions of duct-cleaning "services"
in my head, and simply sent him on his merry way after paying the basic
service fee. Was he blowing smoke, or did he know something about circuit
breakers not apparent to me?

Art


I agree that this is much ado about nothing. I would make a note of
the company that your electrician works for and not invite them back.

On Wed, 20 Dec 2006 21:01:19 GMT, "Toller" wrote:


"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message
...
"Arthur Shapiro" wrote in message
...


While waiting outside for the electrician, a neighbor came out with
exactly
the same complaint. I knew then that it was a utility company
problem....

I'm just watching this discussion, but maybe someone can explain how a
problem with the utility's equipment could cause just half a house to go
dead.
You have two 120v circuits going to your house. Half the house's 120v
circuits are on each. It is important not to use any 240v devices while
there is a problem, since they would only get 120v.


The appliance could still give you a shock if you were to work on it,
but turning it on wouldn't hurt anything. It would just not work.

Arthur Shapiro wrote:
I knew I had a problem yesterday morning when the furnace didn't come on at
the usual 6:30 time where it progresses from the thermostat's nighttime
setting into the waking time setting.

Investigation revealed about half the house was without power, and half
normal. I quickly ran extension cords to power the critical items (furnace,
refrigerator, computer) to working outlets. Clearly one leg of the 120v
supply was out. After cycling all the breakers, including the master, without
success I decided it was time to pick an electrician out of the phone book,
and the firm promised someone within an hour.

While waiting outside for the electrician, a neighbor came out with exactly
the same complaint. I knew then that it was a utility company problem, but
having commited to the service call decided there was no harm other than a few
$$$ in having the issue confirmed. (Turned out to be a burnt wire in an
underground connection vault, and it took them until 10:30 in the evening to
restore full power.)

The gentleman was quickly able to confirm my hypothesis, but then pointed out
some alleged issues in my breaker box. I personally choose not to fool with
breaker boxes, other than tightening the screws on the blasted aluminum wire
once every year or so; I'm comfortable with wiring and conduit manipulation
and the like, but feel breaker boxes are left to pros.

He pointed out one breaker which had two wires going into it. Being copper, I
knew this was a circuit I had had (professionally) added in the past, but
being on the nonfunctional leg neither he nor I could determine what was being
powered from this breaker. He claimed that was highly dangerous. Now that I
have power again, I'll be able to ascertain what's being powered from that
breaker, but my question is: is this automatically a Highly Bad Thing, or are
there instances where two wires into one breaker is a legitimate installation?
He wanted $450 to correct this, which given the triviality of snapping two
breakers into a box and connecting a wire to each seemed to me to be a ripoff
in the making, so I declined. He also suggested that since many of the
breakers were quite old (it's a 1969 house, although some circuits have been
added over the years), and since replacing them all would be expensive, that I
have him "lubricate" the breakers. I had visions of duct-cleaning "services"
in my head, and simply sent him on his merry way after paying the basic
service fee. Was he blowing smoke, or did he know something about circuit
breakers not apparent to me?

Art

The molded-case circuit breakers used for residential applications are
_sealed_, one cannot lubricate them. The only thing that one can do is
exercise them every 6 to 12 months or so, by turning them off and on
several times. If any are binding, they should be replaced because
they may not trip if/when called upon to perform under fault
conditions. Large circuit breakers, such as is found in large
commercial, industrial switchgear or utility substations are very
complex mechanisms and do require periodic maintainance and lubrication
by highly skilled factory approved people in a shop
environment......_not_ by some electrician out in the field.

In article om, wrote:

OTOH, you mention Al wiring. I'd save up all small change to pay for
verifying, changing
all connections to safe ones; properly crimp on pigtails, whatever. Al
connections are a
huge danger.

When I moved in, in 1987, I pigtailed every outlet with NoAlOx filled wire
nuts. I've had to examine a couple of those outlets over the years and was
pleased to see the nuts were still tight and apparently filled with the gorp.
I know crimping is now the approved methodology, but I'm satisfied with what I
see. But I appreciate the suggestion (and everyone else's input on the
original issue).

Art

Toller wrote:


I have never heard of old breakers being dangerous or lubricating them, and
I surely wouldn't do anything to them that the manufacturer didn't
recommend.

Maybe he was describing removing the breakers and applying a little
Thomas & Betts Kopper Shield or a silver conductive grease to the "plug
in" prongs to make sure they maintained good contact:

http://www.elexp.com/che_8463.htm


But if you are concerned, you can probably replace them all for
$100 in an hour.
As a matter of fact, I just had a 1965 breaker trip when a mouse chewed
through a wire and shorted it.



Did the rodent survive?

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
The speed of light is 1.8*10^12 furlongs per fortnight.

Jeff Wisnia wrote:

Toller wrote:


I have never heard of old breakers being dangerous or lubricating
them, and I surely wouldn't do anything to them that the manufacturer
didn't recommend.


Maybe he was describing removing the breakers and applying a little
Thomas & Betts Kopper Shield or a silver conductive grease to the "plug
in" prongs to make sure they maintained good contact:

http://www.elexp.com/che_8463.htm

I suspect removing and replacing the breakers compromises their
connections more than this stuff improves them. And I'd be concerned
it might migrate, too.



But if you are concerned, you can probably replace them all for

$100 in an hour.
As a matter of fact, I just had a 1965 breaker trip when a mouse
chewed through a wire and shorted it.



Did the rodent survive?

Jeff



--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .

HeyBub wrote:

There are two phases dropped to the house, 120 each. If you lose one, you
still have the other. ....................... snip ...................

Also: While agreeing that the term 'phase' is sometimes used
.........................

More correctly there are two 'legs' which are the opposite ends of the
same centre tapped 230 volt single phase!

Thus one can be considered (sort of, although incorrectly as far as AC
is concerned) as being plus 120 volts and the other as neg. 120 volts
and therefore about 240 volts between the two of them; which is used to
power heavy y items such as water heaters, electric cooking stoves
etc.

If the the two wires were really different phases they would have
voltages 120 degrees apart and there would be a peculiar voltage
between the two. Not the 230/240 volts (180 degrees with the two ends
always of opposite polarity) expected.

Same thing happened to my neighbours garage; they lost one side (or
leg) of the 230 volt supply. The 'electrician' they hired came over to
my house to borrow a multimeter and I went over and checked it for
them! Utility company fixed a defective over head drop later that day.

"terry" wrote in message
ups.com...
HeyBub wrote:

There are two phases dropped to the house, 120 each. If you lose one, you
still have the other. ....................... snip ...................

Also: While agreeing that the term 'phase' is sometimes used
........................

More correctly there are two 'legs' which are the opposite ends of the
same centre tapped 230 volt single phase!

Thus one can be considered (sort of, although incorrectly as far as AC
is concerned) as being plus 120 volts and the other as neg. 120 volts
and therefore about 240 volts between the two of them; which is used to
power heavy y items such as water heaters, electric cooking stoves
etc.

If the the two wires were really different phases they would have
voltages 120 degrees apart and there would be a peculiar voltage
between the two. Not the 230/240 volts (180 degrees with the two ends
always of opposite polarity) expected.

Same thing happened to my neighbours garage; they lost one side (or
leg) of the 230 volt supply. The 'electrician' they hired came over to
my house to borrow a multimeter and I went over and checked it for
them! Utility company fixed a defective over head drop later that day.

Losing one leg is not all that uncommon, at least around here. I've seen
this at least three time in the past year -- all problems that the local
utility
had to fix. As another poster has mentioned - the tip off is if every other
circuit is off. Also, be careful of back feeds through 220v appliances like
ranges, water heaters and dryers.

On Thu, 21 Dec 2006 09:48:39 -0500, "The Streets" wrote:

"terry" wrote in message
oups.com...
HeyBub wrote:

There are two phases dropped to the house, 120 each. If you lose one, you
still have the other. ....................... snip ...................

Also: While agreeing that the term 'phase' is sometimes used
........................

More correctly there are two 'legs' which are the opposite ends of the
same centre tapped 230 volt single phase!

Thus one can be considered (sort of, although incorrectly as far as AC
is concerned) as being plus 120 volts and the other as neg. 120 volts
and therefore about 240 volts between the two of them; which is used to
power heavy y items such as water heaters, electric cooking stoves
etc.

If the the two wires were really different phases they would have
voltages 120 degrees apart and there would be a peculiar voltage
between the two. Not the 230/240 volts (180 degrees with the two ends
always of opposite polarity) expected.

Same thing happened to my neighbours garage; they lost one side (or
leg) of the 230 volt supply. The 'electrician' they hired came over to
my house to borrow a multimeter and I went over and checked it for
them! Utility company fixed a defective over head drop later that day.

Losing one leg is not all that uncommon, at least around here. I've seen
this at least three time in the past year -- all problems that the local
utility
had to fix. As another poster has mentioned - the tip off is if every other
circuit is off. Also, be careful of back feeds through 220v appliances like
ranges, water heaters and dryers.

I'll bite.

Suppose I've got a (residential) 200A main breaker panel, and the
street power fails.

I switch off the main breaker and use a gas powered 40A generator
to backfeed the 30A (220v) circuit for the elec. dryer.

What can I expect? Live circuits, dead circuits? Overload
conditions??

Elec. power around here (MO) seems to get less and less reliable
by the month, else I wouldn't ask.

Thx,
Puddin'

Pease pudding hot,
Pease pudding cold,
Pease pudding in the pot
Nine days old ...

On Wed, 20 Dec 2006 19:38:59 GMT, (Arthur Shapiro) wrote:

The gentleman was quickly able to confirm my hypothesis, but then pointed out
some alleged issues in my breaker box. I personally choose not to fool with
breaker boxes, other than tightening the screws on the blasted aluminum wire
once every year or so; I'm comfortable with wiring and conduit manipulation
and the like, but feel breaker boxes are left to pros.

OK ...

He pointed out one breaker which had two wires going into it. Being copper, I
knew this was a circuit I had had (professionally) added in the past, but
being on the nonfunctional leg neither he nor I could determine what was being
powered from this breaker. He claimed that was highly dangerous. Now that I
have power again, I'll be able to ascertain what's being powered from that
breaker, but my question is: is this automatically a Highly Bad Thing, or are
there instances where two wires into one breaker is a legitimate installation?

Consider the notion that noone (including yourself) was in a position
to -say- if it was 100% "legitimate" as re any relevant concern ...

You omit relevant info (breaker spec, specs on the "two wires"), but,
in general, the little breakers are supposed to be co-specified for
a single circuit. Circuits are something thatcha kinda sorta -design-.

He wanted $450 to correct this, which given the triviality of snapping two
breakers into a box and connecting a wire to each seemed to me to be a ripoff
in the making, so I declined. He also suggested that since many of the
breakers were quite old (it's a 1969 house, although some circuits have been
added over the years), and since replacing them all would be expensive, that I
have him "lubricate" the breakers. I had visions of duct-cleaning "services"
in my head, and simply sent him on his merry way after paying the basic
service fee. Was he blowing smoke, or did he know something about circuit
breakers not apparent to me?

Art

Perhaps he noted that the breaker appeared to be jerry-rigged and
decided he didn't wanna fool with such without a sizable premium.
Blow some smoke re lube, and he's outa there.

I can tell you this. If your house were for sale, I stopped by, and
noted, say, 12 15A romex cables going into the service panel and
only 8 (or less) corresponding breakers, I'd likely pass your
property by.

Cheers,
Puddin'

Pease pudding hot,
Pease pudding cold,
Pease pudding in the pot
Nine days old ...

Puddin' Man wrote:

On Thu, 21 Dec 2006 09:48:39 -0500, "The Streets" wrote:

"terry" wrote in message
oups.com...
HeyBub wrote:

There are two phases dropped to the house, 120 each. If you lose one, you
still have the other. ....................... snip ...................

Also: While agreeing that the term 'phase' is sometimes used
........................

More correctly there are two 'legs' which are the opposite ends of the
same centre tapped 230 volt single phase!

Thus one can be considered (sort of, although incorrectly as far as AC
is concerned) as being plus 120 volts and the other as neg. 120 volts
and therefore about 240 volts between the two of them; which is used to
power heavy y items such as water heaters, electric cooking stoves
etc.

If the the two wires were really different phases they would have
voltages 120 degrees apart and there would be a peculiar voltage
between the two. Not the 230/240 volts (180 degrees with the two ends
always of opposite polarity) expected.

Same thing happened to my neighbours garage; they lost one side (or
leg) of the 230 volt supply. The 'electrician' they hired came over to
my house to borrow a multimeter and I went over and checked it for
them! Utility company fixed a defective over head drop later that day.

Losing one leg is not all that uncommon, at least around here. I've seen
this at least three time in the past year -- all problems that the local
utility
had to fix. As another poster has mentioned - the tip off is if every other
circuit is off. Also, be careful of back feeds through 220v appliances like
ranges, water heaters and dryers.

I'll bite.

Suppose I've got a (residential) 200A main breaker panel, and the
street power fails.

I switch off the main breaker and use a gas powered 40A generator
to backfeed the 30A (220v) circuit for the elec. dryer.

What can I expect? Live circuits, dead circuits? Overload
conditions??

Elec. power around here (MO) seems to get less and less reliable
by the month, else I wouldn't ask.

Thx,
Puddin'

Pease pudding hot,
Pease pudding cold,
Pease pudding in the pot
Nine days old ...

That's not the same kind of back feed.

The back feed referenced is the potential for the leg that is "dead" due
to a failed utility connection to become energized from the remaining
live leg when a 240V appliance is switched on. The 240V appliance
providing a connection between the two legs. The appliance will of
course not operate since one of the hot legs it relies on is "dead", but
it will provide a conduction path from the one that is live to the other
presenting a hazard if you are carelessly working on that "dead" leg.

Back feeding your house from a generator through a breaker other than
the main in the panel works perfectly fine. The situation you indicated
with the dryer outlet is not legal due to the lack of a safety interlock
to insure the main is indeed off when power is being back fed through
the dryer outlet. The electrically identical scenario is legal when the
main breaker and the dedicated back feed breaker are interlocked with an
approved device to insure the main is off when the back feed breaker is
on.

Pete C.

Puddin' Man wrote:
On Thu, 21 Dec 2006 09:48:39 -0500, "The Streets" wrote:


"terry" wrote in message
roups.com...

HeyBub wrote:

There are two phases dropped to the house, 120 each. If you lose one, you
still have the other. ....................... snip ...................

Also: While agreeing that the term 'phase' is sometimes used
........................

More correctly there are two 'legs' which are the opposite ends of the
same centre tapped 230 volt single phase!

Thus one can be considered (sort of, although incorrectly as far as AC
is concerned) as being plus 120 volts and the other as neg. 120 volts
and therefore about 240 volts between the two of them; which is used to
power heavy y items such as water heaters, electric cooking stoves
etc.

If the the two wires were really different phases they would have
voltages 120 degrees apart and there would be a peculiar voltage
between the two. Not the 230/240 volts (180 degrees with the two ends
always of opposite polarity) expected.

Same thing happened to my neighbours garage; they lost one side (or
leg) of the 230 volt supply. The 'electrician' they hired came over to
my house to borrow a multimeter and I went over and checked it for
them! Utility company fixed a defective over head drop later that day.

Losing one leg is not all that uncommon, at least around here. I've seen
this at least three time in the past year -- all problems that the local
utility
had to fix. As another poster has mentioned - the tip off is if every other
circuit is off. Also, be careful of back feeds through 220v appliances like
ranges, water heaters and dryers.


I'll bite.

Suppose I've got a (residential) 200A main breaker panel, and the
street power fails.

I switch off the main breaker and use a gas powered 40A generator
to backfeed the 30A (220v) circuit for the elec. dryer.

What can I expect? Live circuits, dead circuits? Overload
conditions??

That depends where you connect, and which breakers are "on."

There's a good chance you'll energize the whole house unless
you're careful, which might very well overload your generator.

What you suggest is _very_ dangerous. You should have a
proper transfer box.

Elec. power around here (MO) seems to get less and less reliable
by the month, else I wouldn't ask.

Thx,
Puddin'

Pease pudding hot,
Pease pudding cold,
Pease pudding in the pot
Nine days old ...


--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .

On Thu, 21 Dec 2006 18:38:30 GMT, "Pete C." wrote:

Puddin' Man wrote:

On Thu, 21 Dec 2006 09:48:39 -0500, "The Streets" wrote:

"terry" wrote in message
oups.com...
HeyBub wrote:

There are two phases dropped to the house, 120 each. If you lose one, you
still have the other. ....................... snip ...................

Also: While agreeing that the term 'phase' is sometimes used
........................

More correctly there are two 'legs' which are the opposite ends of the
same centre tapped 230 volt single phase!

Thus one can be considered (sort of, although incorrectly as far as AC
is concerned) as being plus 120 volts and the other as neg. 120 volts
and therefore about 240 volts between the two of them; which is used to
power heavy y items such as water heaters, electric cooking stoves
etc.

If the the two wires were really different phases they would have
voltages 120 degrees apart and there would be a peculiar voltage
between the two. Not the 230/240 volts (180 degrees with the two ends
always of opposite polarity) expected.

Same thing happened to my neighbours garage; they lost one side (or
leg) of the 230 volt supply. The 'electrician' they hired came over to
my house to borrow a multimeter and I went over and checked it for
them! Utility company fixed a defective over head drop later that day.

Losing one leg is not all that uncommon, at least around here. I've seen
this at least three time in the past year -- all problems that the local
utility
had to fix. As another poster has mentioned - the tip off is if every other
circuit is off. Also, be careful of back feeds through 220v appliances like
ranges, water heaters and dryers.

I'll bite.

Suppose I've got a (residential) 200A main breaker panel, and the
street power fails.

I switch off the main breaker and use a gas powered 40A generator
to backfeed the 30A (220v) circuit for the elec. dryer.

What can I expect? Live circuits, dead circuits? Overload
conditions??

Elec. power around here (MO) seems to get less and less reliable
by the month, else I wouldn't ask.

Thx,
Puddin'

Pease pudding hot,
Pease pudding cold,
Pease pudding in the pot
Nine days old ...

That's not the same kind of back feed.

The back feed referenced is the potential for the leg that is "dead" due
to a failed utility connection to become energized from the remaining
live leg when a 240V appliance is switched on. The 240V appliance
providing a connection between the two legs. The appliance will of
course not operate since one of the hot legs it relies on is "dead", but
it will provide a conduction path from the one that is live to the other
presenting a hazard if you are carelessly working on that "dead" leg.

Well, that one got by po' me. Shoulda thought about it longer.

Back feeding your house from a generator through a breaker other than
the main in the panel works perfectly fine. The situation you indicated
with the dryer outlet is not legal due to the lack of a safety interlock
to insure the main is indeed off when power is being back fed through
the dryer outlet. The electrically identical scenario is legal when the
main breaker and the dedicated back feed breaker are interlocked with an
approved device to insure the main is off when the back feed breaker is
on.

So, for the safety interlock, I'd need to replace or rewire
the existing main breaker to a "safety interlock" box or
somesuch?

When you say "not legal", you refer to common bldg. codes?

Thx,
P

Pease pudding hot,
Pease pudding cold,
Pease pudding in the pot
Nine days old ...

On Thu, 21 Dec 2006 13:31:22 -0600, CJT wrote:

Puddin' Man wrote:
On Thu, 21 Dec 2006 09:48:39 -0500, "The Streets" wrote:


"terry" wrote in message
groups.com...

HeyBub wrote:

There are two phases dropped to the house, 120 each. If you lose one, you
still have the other. ....................... snip ...................

Also: While agreeing that the term 'phase' is sometimes used
........................

More correctly there are two 'legs' which are the opposite ends of the
same centre tapped 230 volt single phase!

Thus one can be considered (sort of, although incorrectly as far as AC
is concerned) as being plus 120 volts and the other as neg. 120 volts
and therefore about 240 volts between the two of them; which is used to
power heavy y items such as water heaters, electric cooking stoves
etc.

If the the two wires were really different phases they would have
voltages 120 degrees apart and there would be a peculiar voltage
between the two. Not the 230/240 volts (180 degrees with the two ends
always of opposite polarity) expected.

Same thing happened to my neighbours garage; they lost one side (or
leg) of the 230 volt supply. The 'electrician' they hired came over to
my house to borrow a multimeter and I went over and checked it for
them! Utility company fixed a defective over head drop later that day.

Losing one leg is not all that uncommon, at least around here. I've seen
this at least three time in the past year -- all problems that the local
utility
had to fix. As another poster has mentioned - the tip off is if every other
circuit is off. Also, be careful of back feeds through 220v appliances like
ranges, water heaters and dryers.


I'll bite.

Suppose I've got a (residential) 200A main breaker panel, and the
street power fails.

I switch off the main breaker and use a gas powered 40A generator
to backfeed the 30A (220v) circuit for the elec. dryer.

What can I expect? Live circuits, dead circuits? Overload
conditions??

That depends where you connect, and which breakers are "on."

There's a good chance you'll energize the whole house unless
you're careful, which might very well overload your generator.

What you suggest is _very_ dangerous. You should have a
proper transfer box.

Suppose, in an emergency scenario, I pick a couple 15A circuits
and switch all the other breakers off? Safe?

Thanks,
P

Pease pudding hot,
Pease pudding cold,
Pease pudding in the pot
Nine days old ...

"Puddin' Man" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 21 Dec 2006 13:31:22 -0600, CJT wrote:

Puddin' Man wrote:
On Thu, 21 Dec 2006 09:48:39 -0500, "The Streets"
wrote:


"terry" wrote in message
egroups.com...

HeyBub wrote:

There are two phases dropped to the house, 120 each. If you lose one,
you
still have the other. ....................... snip ...................

Also: While agreeing that the term 'phase' is sometimes used
........................

More correctly there are two 'legs' which are the opposite ends of the
same centre tapped 230 volt single phase!

Thus one can be considered (sort of, although incorrectly as far as AC
is concerned) as being plus 120 volts and the other as neg. 120 volts
and therefore about 240 volts between the two of them; which is used to
power heavy y items such as water heaters, electric cooking stoves
etc.

If the the two wires were really different phases they would have
voltages 120 degrees apart and there would be a peculiar voltage
between the two. Not the 230/240 volts (180 degrees with the two ends
always of opposite polarity) expected.

Same thing happened to my neighbours garage; they lost one side (or
leg) of the 230 volt supply. The 'electrician' they hired came over to
my house to borrow a multimeter and I went over and checked it for
them! Utility company fixed a defective over head drop later that day.

Losing one leg is not all that uncommon, at least around here. I've
seen
this at least three time in the past year -- all problems that the local
utility
had to fix. As another poster has mentioned - the tip off is if every
other
circuit is off. Also, be careful of back feeds through 220v appliances
like
ranges, water heaters and dryers.


I'll bite.

Suppose I've got a (residential) 200A main breaker panel, and the
street power fails.

I switch off the main breaker and use a gas powered 40A generator
to backfeed the 30A (220v) circuit for the elec. dryer.

What can I expect? Live circuits, dead circuits? Overload
conditions??

That depends where you connect, and which breakers are "on."

There's a good chance you'll energize the whole house unless
you're careful, which might very well overload your generator.

What you suggest is _very_ dangerous. You should have a
proper transfer box.

Suppose, in an emergency scenario, I pick a couple 15A circuits
and switch all the other breakers off? Safe?

If you do it properly, and your circuit breakers work properly, it is safe.
If someone gets hurt while you are doing something illegal you are in very
deep trouble. Since a transfer switch costs maybe $150 and takes a couple
hours to install, it is not a risk I am willing to take.

Its sort of like driving without your seat belt on. It is safe (after all,
how often do you have a collision?) but it is just not smart.

Puddin' Man wrote:

snip
Suppose, in an emergency scenario, I pick a couple 15A circuits
and switch all the other breakers off? Safe?


Perhaps it would seem so, but I'd personally opt for extension cords.
There's too great a danger of somebody who is not fully aware of what's
going on flipping a breaker. I'd hate to be the guy responsible for
electrocuting a power company lineman working to restore power.


Thanks,
P

Pease pudding hot,
Pease pudding cold,
Pease pudding in the pot
Nine days old ...


--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .

On Wed, 20 Dec 2006 21:01:19 GMT, "Toller" wrote:


"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message
...
"Arthur Shapiro" wrote in message
...


While waiting outside for the electrician, a neighbor came out with
exactly
the same complaint. I knew then that it was a utility company
problem....

I'm just watching this discussion, but maybe someone can explain how a
problem with the utility's equipment could cause just half a house to go
dead.
You have two 120v circuits going to your house. Half the house's 120v
circuits are on each. It is important not to use any 240v devices while
there is a problem, since they would only get 120v.

The failed connection is probably open, not shorted to ground. You
would get nothing, not 120V.
--
4 days until the winter solstice celebration

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"Never underestimate the power of stupid
people in large groups"

On Thu, 21 Dec 2006 18:38:30 GMT, "Pete C."
wrote:

Puddin' Man wrote:

On Thu, 21 Dec 2006 09:48:39 -0500, "The Streets" wrote:

"terry" wrote in message
oups.com...
HeyBub wrote:

There are two phases dropped to the house, 120 each. If you lose one, you
still have the other. ....................... snip ...................

Also: While agreeing that the term 'phase' is sometimes used
........................

More correctly there are two 'legs' which are the opposite ends of the
same centre tapped 230 volt single phase!

Thus one can be considered (sort of, although incorrectly as far as AC
is concerned) as being plus 120 volts and the other as neg. 120 volts
and therefore about 240 volts between the two of them; which is used to
power heavy y items such as water heaters, electric cooking stoves
etc.

If the the two wires were really different phases they would have
voltages 120 degrees apart and there would be a peculiar voltage
between the two. Not the 230/240 volts (180 degrees with the two ends
always of opposite polarity) expected.

Same thing happened to my neighbours garage; they lost one side (or
leg) of the 230 volt supply. The 'electrician' they hired came over to
my house to borrow a multimeter and I went over and checked it for
them! Utility company fixed a defective over head drop later that day.

Losing one leg is not all that uncommon, at least around here. I've seen
this at least three time in the past year -- all problems that the local
utility
had to fix. As another poster has mentioned - the tip off is if every other
circuit is off. Also, be careful of back feeds through 220v appliances like
ranges, water heaters and dryers.

I'll bite.

Suppose I've got a (residential) 200A main breaker panel, and the
street power fails.

I switch off the main breaker and use a gas powered 40A generator
to backfeed the 30A (220v) circuit for the elec. dryer.

What can I expect? Live circuits, dead circuits? Overload
conditions??

Elec. power around here (MO) seems to get less and less reliable
by the month, else I wouldn't ask.

Thx,
Puddin'

Pease pudding hot,
Pease pudding cold,
Pease pudding in the pot
Nine days old ...

That's not the same kind of back feed.

The back feed referenced is the potential for the leg that is "dead" due
to a failed utility connection to become energized from the remaining
live leg when a 240V appliance is switched on. The 240V appliance
providing a connection between the two legs. The appliance will of
course not operate since one of the hot legs it relies on is "dead", but
it will provide a conduction path from the one that is live to the other
presenting a hazard if you are carelessly working on that "dead" leg.

Back feeding your house from a generator through a breaker other than
the main in the panel works perfectly fine. The situation you indicated
with the dryer outlet is not legal due to the lack of a safety interlock
to insure the main is indeed off when power is being back fed through
the dryer outlet. The electrically identical scenario is legal when the
main breaker and the dedicated back feed breaker are interlocked with an
approved device to insure the main is off when the back feed breaker is
on.

Pete C.

I once considered doing that last thing (generator to dryer outlet),
but changed my mind after reading here. One little mistake can have
very serious consequences.
--
4 days until the winter solstice celebration

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"Never underestimate the power of stupid
people in large groups"

Puddin' Man wrote:

On Thu, 21 Dec 2006 18:38:30 GMT, "Pete C." wrote:

Puddin' Man wrote:

On Thu, 21 Dec 2006 09:48:39 -0500, "The Streets" wrote:

"terry" wrote in message
oups.com...
HeyBub wrote:

There are two phases dropped to the house, 120 each. If you lose one, you
still have the other. ....................... snip ...................

Also: While agreeing that the term 'phase' is sometimes used
........................

More correctly there are two 'legs' which are the opposite ends of the
same centre tapped 230 volt single phase!

Thus one can be considered (sort of, although incorrectly as far as AC
is concerned) as being plus 120 volts and the other as neg. 120 volts
and therefore about 240 volts between the two of them; which is used to
power heavy y items such as water heaters, electric cooking stoves
etc.

If the the two wires were really different phases they would have
voltages 120 degrees apart and there would be a peculiar voltage
between the two. Not the 230/240 volts (180 degrees with the two ends
always of opposite polarity) expected.

Same thing happened to my neighbours garage; they lost one side (or
leg) of the 230 volt supply. The 'electrician' they hired came over to
my house to borrow a multimeter and I went over and checked it for
them! Utility company fixed a defective over head drop later that day.

Losing one leg is not all that uncommon, at least around here. I've seen
this at least three time in the past year -- all problems that the local
utility
had to fix. As another poster has mentioned - the tip off is if every other
circuit is off. Also, be careful of back feeds through 220v appliances like
ranges, water heaters and dryers.

I'll bite.

Suppose I've got a (residential) 200A main breaker panel, and the
street power fails.

I switch off the main breaker and use a gas powered 40A generator
to backfeed the 30A (220v) circuit for the elec. dryer.

What can I expect? Live circuits, dead circuits? Overload
conditions??

Elec. power around here (MO) seems to get less and less reliable
by the month, else I wouldn't ask.

Thx,
Puddin'

Pease pudding hot,
Pease pudding cold,
Pease pudding in the pot
Nine days old ...

That's not the same kind of back feed.

The back feed referenced is the potential for the leg that is "dead" due
to a failed utility connection to become energized from the remaining
live leg when a 240V appliance is switched on. The 240V appliance
providing a connection between the two legs. The appliance will of
course not operate since one of the hot legs it relies on is "dead", but
it will provide a conduction path from the one that is live to the other
presenting a hazard if you are carelessly working on that "dead" leg.

Well, that one got by po' me. Shoulda thought about it longer.

Back feeding your house from a generator through a breaker other than
the main in the panel works perfectly fine. The situation you indicated
with the dryer outlet is not legal due to the lack of a safety interlock
to insure the main is indeed off when power is being back fed through
the dryer outlet. The electrically identical scenario is legal when the
main breaker and the dedicated back feed breaker are interlocked with an
approved device to insure the main is off when the back feed breaker is
on.

So, for the safety interlock, I'd need to replace or rewire
the existing main breaker to a "safety interlock" box or
somesuch?

For a code approved (NEC and others) generator connection you need
either an approved transfer switch or the more recent option of an
approved interlock kit that is installed on your electrical panel.

One example of the interlock kits is one available for Square D panels
which provides a mechanical interlock between the main breaker and a
dedicated back feed breaker in the 2/4 position of the panel.

If you want an automatic generator system you will need an automatic
transfer switch. For manual systems there are a number of options with
the interlock kits being the most economical option in most cases.


When you say "not legal", you refer to common bldg. codes?


National electrical code (NEC), other codes that reference it and
similar codes.

Pete C.

Toller wrote:

"Puddin' Man" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 21 Dec 2006 13:31:22 -0600, CJT wrote:

Puddin' Man wrote:
On Thu, 21 Dec 2006 09:48:39 -0500, "The Streets"
wrote:


"terry" wrote in message
egroups.com...

HeyBub wrote:

There are two phases dropped to the house, 120 each. If you lose one,
you
still have the other. ....................... snip ...................

Also: While agreeing that the term 'phase' is sometimes used
........................

More correctly there are two 'legs' which are the opposite ends of the
same centre tapped 230 volt single phase!

Thus one can be considered (sort of, although incorrectly as far as AC
is concerned) as being plus 120 volts and the other as neg. 120 volts
and therefore about 240 volts between the two of them; which is used to
power heavy y items such as water heaters, electric cooking stoves
etc.

If the the two wires were really different phases they would have
voltages 120 degrees apart and there would be a peculiar voltage
between the two. Not the 230/240 volts (180 degrees with the two ends
always of opposite polarity) expected.

Same thing happened to my neighbours garage; they lost one side (or
leg) of the 230 volt supply. The 'electrician' they hired came over to
my house to borrow a multimeter and I went over and checked it for
them! Utility company fixed a defective over head drop later that day.

Losing one leg is not all that uncommon, at least around here. I've
seen
this at least three time in the past year -- all problems that the local
utility
had to fix. As another poster has mentioned - the tip off is if every
other
circuit is off. Also, be careful of back feeds through 220v appliances
like
ranges, water heaters and dryers.


I'll bite.

Suppose I've got a (residential) 200A main breaker panel, and the
street power fails.

I switch off the main breaker and use a gas powered 40A generator
to backfeed the 30A (220v) circuit for the elec. dryer.

What can I expect? Live circuits, dead circuits? Overload
conditions??

That depends where you connect, and which breakers are "on."

There's a good chance you'll energize the whole house unless
you're careful, which might very well overload your generator.

What you suggest is _very_ dangerous. You should have a
proper transfer box.

Suppose, in an emergency scenario, I pick a couple 15A circuits
and switch all the other breakers off? Safe?

If you do it properly, and your circuit breakers work properly, it is safe.
If someone gets hurt while you are doing something illegal you are in very
deep trouble. Since a transfer switch costs maybe $150 and takes a couple
hours to install, it is not a risk I am willing to take.

Its sort of like driving without your seat belt on. It is safe (after all,
how often do you have a collision?) but it is just not smart.

If you have a panel for which an approved interlock kit is available
such as Square D it's even cheaper, around $50 between the kit and a
dedicated breaker for the back feed.

Pete C.

On Thu, 21 Dec 2006 15:03:01 -0600, CJT wrote:

Puddin' Man wrote:

snip
Suppose, in an emergency scenario, I pick a couple 15A circuits
and switch all the other breakers off? Safe?


Perhaps it would seem so, but I'd personally opt for extension cords.

Jeez, whotta mess ...

There's too great a danger of somebody who is not fully aware of what's
going on flipping a breaker.

That's a multi-occupant thingy. I shoulda stated there's noone
here 'cept me and my Crazy Birddawg.

I'd hate to be the guy responsible for
electrocuting a power company lineman working to restore power.

This would be possible given the main breaker in my house is
switched off? No comprendere, senor.

Thx,
Puddin'

Pease pudding hot,
Pease pudding cold,
Pease pudding in the pot
Nine days old ...

On Thu, 21 Dec 2006 21:46:20 GMT, "Pete C." wrote:

Toller wrote:

"Puddin' Man" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 21 Dec 2006 13:31:22 -0600, CJT wrote:

Puddin' Man wrote:
On Thu, 21 Dec 2006 09:48:39 -0500, "The Streets"
wrote:


"terry" wrote in message
egroups.com...

HeyBub wrote:

There are two phases dropped to the house, 120 each. If you lose one,
you
still have the other. ....................... snip ...................

Also: While agreeing that the term 'phase' is sometimes used
........................

More correctly there are two 'legs' which are the opposite ends of the
same centre tapped 230 volt single phase!

Thus one can be considered (sort of, although incorrectly as far as AC
is concerned) as being plus 120 volts and the other as neg. 120 volts
and therefore about 240 volts between the two of them; which is used to
power heavy y items such as water heaters, electric cooking stoves
etc.

If the the two wires were really different phases they would have
voltages 120 degrees apart and there would be a peculiar voltage
between the two. Not the 230/240 volts (180 degrees with the two ends
always of opposite polarity) expected.

Same thing happened to my neighbours garage; they lost one side (or
leg) of the 230 volt supply. The 'electrician' they hired came over to
my house to borrow a multimeter and I went over and checked it for
them! Utility company fixed a defective over head drop later that day.

Losing one leg is not all that uncommon, at least around here. I've
seen
this at least three time in the past year -- all problems that the local
utility
had to fix. As another poster has mentioned - the tip off is if every
other
circuit is off. Also, be careful of back feeds through 220v appliances
like
ranges, water heaters and dryers.


I'll bite.

Suppose I've got a (residential) 200A main breaker panel, and the
street power fails.

I switch off the main breaker and use a gas powered 40A generator
to backfeed the 30A (220v) circuit for the elec. dryer.

What can I expect? Live circuits, dead circuits? Overload
conditions??

That depends where you connect, and which breakers are "on."

There's a good chance you'll energize the whole house unless
you're careful, which might very well overload your generator.

What you suggest is _very_ dangerous. You should have a
proper transfer box.

Suppose, in an emergency scenario, I pick a couple 15A circuits
and switch all the other breakers off? Safe?

If you do it properly, and your circuit breakers work properly, it is safe.
If someone gets hurt while you are doing something illegal you are in very
deep trouble. Since a transfer switch costs maybe $150 and takes a couple
hours to install, it is not a risk I am willing to take.

Its sort of like driving without your seat belt on. It is safe (after all,
how often do you have a collision?) but it is just not smart.

If you have a panel for which an approved interlock kit is available
such as Square D it's even cheaper, around $50 between the kit and a
dedicated breaker for the back feed.

I have a 21 yr-old Cutler-Hammer panel that I installed myself back
around 1984.

No doubt there's numerous houses in which an interlock kit would
make sense. But there's nobody here but po' me, and, to my knowledge,
I don't need to idiot-proof the damned thang. Before any gas
generator were connected, the main breaker -would- be switched
off. And it would stay off until the gen. was removed.

True or False:
With the main breaker off, all I have to worry about is the
in-house circuitry (which I'm pretty familiar with).

Cheers,
Puddin'



Pease pudding hot,
Pease pudding cold,
Pease pudding in the pot
Nine days old ...

isnt pigtailing in the panel also a code violation?
I thought you had to either put each home run or branch circuit on its
on breaker OR have it made up in a J-box intead of taking to the panel
and pigtailing


Having 2 wires on a single breaker is a code violation unless the
breaker is rated for 2 wires - some SquardD ones are. It is not "highly
dangerous" and is very easy to fix by pigtailing as about everyone has said.

I have not heard of lubricating breakers. I very much doubt is possible
to lubricate breakers. If it is possible, it is probably a bad idea. The
whole thing smells like a scam.

Puddin' Man wrote:
On Thu, 21 Dec 2006 15:03:01 -0600, CJT wrote:


Puddin' Man wrote:

snip

Suppose, in an emergency scenario, I pick a couple 15A circuits
and switch all the other breakers off? Safe?


Perhaps it would seem so, but I'd personally opt for extension cords.


Jeez, whotta mess ...


There's too great a danger of somebody who is not fully aware of what's
going on flipping a breaker.


That's a multi-occupant thingy. I shoulda stated there's noone
here 'cept me and my Crazy Birddawg.


I'd hate to be the guy responsible for
electrocuting a power company lineman working to restore power.


This would be possible given the main breaker in my house is
switched off? No comprendere, senor.

All it takes is a momentary lapse of attentiveness or (particularly
since we're talking about emergency conditions) somebody new on the
scene.

At any rate, I believe it violates code, is illegal, and is dangerous.
I understand all that might not stop you doing it, but I would advise
against it.



Thx,
Puddin'

Pease pudding hot,
Pease pudding cold,
Pease pudding in the pot
Nine days old ...


--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .

On Thu, 21 Dec 2006 23:41:51 GMT, CJT wrote:

Puddin' Man wrote:
On Thu, 21 Dec 2006 15:03:01 -0600, CJT wrote:


Puddin' Man wrote:

snip

Suppose, in an emergency scenario, I pick a couple 15A circuits
and switch all the other breakers off? Safe?


Perhaps it would seem so, but I'd personally opt for extension cords.


Jeez, whotta mess ...


There's too great a danger of somebody who is not fully aware of what's
going on flipping a breaker.


That's a multi-occupant thingy. I shoulda stated there's noone
here 'cept me and my Crazy Birddawg.


I'd hate to be the guy responsible for
electrocuting a power company lineman working to restore power.


This would be possible given the main breaker in my house is
switched off? No comprendere, senor.

All it takes is a momentary lapse of attentiveness or (particularly
since we're talking about emergency conditions) somebody new on the
scene.

It's gotta be the Crazy Birddawg ('cause it couldn't be me).
The Crazy Birddawg is gonna flip the switch ... :-)

At any rate, I believe it violates code, is illegal, and is dangerous.
I understand all that might not stop you doing it, but I would advise
against it.

Taken under advisement.

Thanks,
P

Thx,
Puddin'

Pease pudding hot,
Pease pudding cold,
Pease pudding in the pot
Nine days old ...

Pease pudding hot,
Pease pudding cold,
Pease pudding in the pot
Nine days old ...

Puddin' Man wrote:

On Thu, 21 Dec 2006 21:46:20 GMT, "Pete C." wrote:

Toller wrote:

"Puddin' Man" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 21 Dec 2006 13:31:22 -0600, CJT wrote:

Puddin' Man wrote:
On Thu, 21 Dec 2006 09:48:39 -0500, "The Streets"
wrote:


"terry" wrote in message
egroups.com...

HeyBub wrote:

There are two phases dropped to the house, 120 each. If you lose one,
you
still have the other. ....................... snip ...................

Also: While agreeing that the term 'phase' is sometimes used
........................

More correctly there are two 'legs' which are the opposite ends of the
same centre tapped 230 volt single phase!

Thus one can be considered (sort of, although incorrectly as far as AC
is concerned) as being plus 120 volts and the other as neg. 120 volts
and therefore about 240 volts between the two of them; which is used to
power heavy y items such as water heaters, electric cooking stoves
etc.

If the the two wires were really different phases they would have
voltages 120 degrees apart and there would be a peculiar voltage
between the two. Not the 230/240 volts (180 degrees with the two ends
always of opposite polarity) expected.

Same thing happened to my neighbours garage; they lost one side (or
leg) of the 230 volt supply. The 'electrician' they hired came over to
my house to borrow a multimeter and I went over and checked it for
them! Utility company fixed a defective over head drop later that day.

Losing one leg is not all that uncommon, at least around here. I've
seen
this at least three time in the past year -- all problems that the local
utility
had to fix. As another poster has mentioned - the tip off is if every
other
circuit is off. Also, be careful of back feeds through 220v appliances
like
ranges, water heaters and dryers.


I'll bite.

Suppose I've got a (residential) 200A main breaker panel, and the
street power fails.

I switch off the main breaker and use a gas powered 40A generator
to backfeed the 30A (220v) circuit for the elec. dryer.

What can I expect? Live circuits, dead circuits? Overload
conditions??

That depends where you connect, and which breakers are "on."

There's a good chance you'll energize the whole house unless
you're careful, which might very well overload your generator.

What you suggest is _very_ dangerous. You should have a
proper transfer box.

Suppose, in an emergency scenario, I pick a couple 15A circuits
and switch all the other breakers off? Safe?

If you do it properly, and your circuit breakers work properly, it is safe.
If someone gets hurt while you are doing something illegal you are in very
deep trouble. Since a transfer switch costs maybe $150 and takes a couple
hours to install, it is not a risk I am willing to take.

Its sort of like driving without your seat belt on. It is safe (after all,
how often do you have a collision?) but it is just not smart.

If you have a panel for which an approved interlock kit is available
such as Square D it's even cheaper, around $50 between the kit and a
dedicated breaker for the back feed.

I have a 21 yr-old Cutler-Hammer panel that I installed myself back
around 1984.

No doubt there's numerous houses in which an interlock kit would
make sense. But there's nobody here but po' me, and, to my knowledge,
I don't need to idiot-proof the damned thang. Before any gas
generator were connected, the main breaker -would- be switched
off. And it would stay off until the gen. was removed.

True or False:
With the main breaker off, all I have to worry about is the
in-house circuitry (which I'm pretty familiar with).

Electrically, yes. In reality you have to worry about how certain you
are that you will remember the main breaker while fumbling in the dark
of the outage and what your sentence will be for negligent homicide.

Pete C.

"Puddin' Man" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 21 Dec 2006 21:46:20 GMT, "Pete C." wrote:

Toller wrote:

"Puddin' Man" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 21 Dec 2006 13:31:22 -0600, CJT wrote:

Puddin' Man wrote:
On Thu, 21 Dec 2006 09:48:39 -0500, "The Streets"
wrote:


"terry" wrote in message
egroups.com...

HeyBub wrote:

There are two phases dropped to the house, 120 each. If you lose
one,
you
still have the other. ....................... snip
...................

Also: While agreeing that the term 'phase' is sometimes used
........................

More correctly there are two 'legs' which are the opposite ends of
the
same centre tapped 230 volt single phase!

Thus one can be considered (sort of, although incorrectly as far as
AC
is concerned) as being plus 120 volts and the other as neg. 120
volts
and therefore about 240 volts between the two of them; which is
used to
power heavy y items such as water heaters, electric cooking stoves
etc.

If the the two wires were really different phases they would have
voltages 120 degrees apart and there would be a peculiar voltage
between the two. Not the 230/240 volts (180 degrees with the two
ends
always of opposite polarity) expected.

Same thing happened to my neighbours garage; they lost one side (or
leg) of the 230 volt supply. The 'electrician' they hired came over
to
my house to borrow a multimeter and I went over and checked it for
them! Utility company fixed a defective over head drop later that
day.

Losing one leg is not all that uncommon, at least around here. I've
seen
this at least three time in the past year -- all problems that the
local
utility
had to fix. As another poster has mentioned - the tip off is if
every
other
circuit is off. Also, be careful of back feeds through 220v
appliances
like
ranges, water heaters and dryers.


I'll bite.

Suppose I've got a (residential) 200A main breaker panel, and the
street power fails.

I switch off the main breaker and use a gas powered 40A generator
to backfeed the 30A (220v) circuit for the elec. dryer.

What can I expect? Live circuits, dead circuits? Overload
conditions??

That depends where you connect, and which breakers are "on."

There's a good chance you'll energize the whole house unless
you're careful, which might very well overload your generator.

What you suggest is _very_ dangerous. You should have a
proper transfer box.

Suppose, in an emergency scenario, I pick a couple 15A circuits
and switch all the other breakers off? Safe?

If you do it properly, and your circuit breakers work properly, it is
safe.
If someone gets hurt while you are doing something illegal you are in
very
deep trouble. Since a transfer switch costs maybe $150 and takes a
couple
hours to install, it is not a risk I am willing to take.

Its sort of like driving without your seat belt on. It is safe (after
all,
how often do you have a collision?) but it is just not smart.

If you have a panel for which an approved interlock kit is available
such as Square D it's even cheaper, around $50 between the kit and a
dedicated breaker for the back feed.

I have a 21 yr-old Cutler-Hammer panel that I installed myself back
around 1984.

No doubt there's numerous houses in which an interlock kit would
make sense. But there's nobody here but po' me, and, to my knowledge,
I don't need to idiot-proof the damned thang. Before any gas
generator were connected, the main breaker -would- be switched
off. And it would stay off until the gen. was removed.

True or False:
With the main breaker off, all I have to worry about is the
in-house circuitry (which I'm pretty familiar with).

Assuming the breaker really is off, then it is true.

But we all do stupid things. Forgetting to open the main breaker is not
inconceivable.
If you did forget, you would "probably" stall the generator as you tried to
power the neighborhood; but you could also kill a lineman.
You will not deserve any sympathy from the jury!