In article , Tazz wrote:

isnt pigtailing in the panel also a code violation?

No.

I thought you had to either put each home run or branch circuit on its
on breaker OR have it made up in a J-box intead of taking to the panel
and pigtailing

Lots of people think that -- but nobody's been able to show me where the Code
says that...

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

In article , CJT wrote:
Puddin' Man wrote:
On Thu, 21 Dec 2006 15:03:01 -0600, CJT wrote:
Puddin' Man wrote:

snip

Suppose, in an emergency scenario, I pick a couple 15A circuits
and switch all the other breakers off? Safe?

Perhaps it would seem so, but I'd personally opt for extension cords.

Jeez, whotta mess ...

There's too great a danger of somebody who is not fully aware of what's
going on flipping a breaker.

"Flipping A breaker" isn't going to do any harm at all unless it's the MAIN
breaker.

That's a multi-occupant thingy. I shoulda stated there's noone
here 'cept me and my Crazy Birddawg.

I'd hate to be the guy responsible for
electrocuting a power company lineman working to restore power.

Keep the main breaker off, and that won't happen.

This would be possible given the main breaker in my house is
switched off? No comprendere, senor.

All it takes is a momentary lapse of attentiveness or (particularly
since we're talking about emergency conditions) somebody new on the
scene.

Flipping the main breaker from off to on isn't the sort of thing that's going
to happen due to a "momentary lapse of attentiveness".

At any rate, I believe it violates code, is illegal, and is dangerous.

Yes, it's a Code violation. Yes, it's illegal. In an emergency, so what?

As for dangerous -- only if the main breaker is on.

I understand all that might not stop you doing it, but I would advise
against it.

Are you a lawyer?

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

In article ,
Puddin' Man wrote:

I switch off the main breaker and use a gas powered 40A generator
to backfeed the 30A (220v) circuit for the elec. dryer.

What can I expect? Live circuits, dead circuits? Overload
conditions??

Dead linemen?

Yeah, yeah... You switched off the main breaker, but, in your urgency and in
the dark, flipped the WRONG breaker.

Properly install and use a transfer switch or just run some extension cords to
essential appliances during the outage.
--

JR

Climb poles and dig holes
Have staplegun, will travel

In article , Jim Redelfs wrote:
In article ,
Puddin' Man wrote:

I switch off the main breaker and use a gas powered 40A generator
to backfeed the 30A (220v) circuit for the elec. dryer.

What can I expect? Live circuits, dead circuits? Overload
conditions??

Dead linemen?

Yeah, yeah... You switched off the main breaker, but, in your urgency and in
the dark, flipped the WRONG breaker.

Oh, puhleeeze... don't be ridiculous.

If he has enough light (from a flashlight, candle, oil lamp, moonlight,
sunlight, cig lighter, Coleman lantern, jar full of fireflies, or whatever) to
connect the generator, how do you imagine that he can't see which breaker is
the main?

For that matter, even in the dark, how does he not *feel* which breaker is the
main?

And of course it should be obvious that, once the generator is on, there
*will* be lights available to check to make *sure* that the main is off.

Properly install and use a transfer switch or just run some extension cords to
essential appliances during the outage.

Or be aware of the difference between real and imagined hazards, take steps to
prevent the real ones (such as making sure the main breaker is off), and
ignore the imagined ones. Yes, a transfer switch is the right way to do it.
No, you can't just run an extension cord to a furnace or a well pump. In an
emergency, you do what you have to do.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

On Fri, 22 Dec 2006 14:23:34 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote:

In article , Jim Redelfs wrote:
In article ,
Puddin' Man wrote:

I switch off the main breaker and use a gas powered 40A generator
to backfeed the 30A (220v) circuit for the elec. dryer.

What can I expect? Live circuits, dead circuits? Overload
conditions??

Dead linemen?

Yeah, yeah... You switched off the main breaker, but, in your urgency and in
the dark, flipped the WRONG breaker.

Oh, puhleeeze... don't be ridiculous.

If he has enough light (from a flashlight, candle, oil lamp, moonlight,
sunlight, cig lighter, Coleman lantern, jar full of fireflies, or whatever) to
connect the generator, how do you imagine that he can't see which breaker is
the main?

For that matter, even in the dark, how does he not *feel* which breaker is the
main?

And of course it should be obvious that, once the generator is on, there
*will* be lights available to check to make *sure* that the main is off.

Properly install and use a transfer switch or just run some extension cords to
essential appliances during the outage.

Or be aware of the difference between real and imagined hazards, take steps to
prevent the real ones (such as making sure the main breaker is off), and
ignore the imagined ones. Yes, a transfer switch is the right way to do it.
No, you can't just run an extension cord to a furnace or a well pump. In an
emergency, you do what you have to do.

Thanks, Doug.

I purchased/installed/wired the svc. panel 21 years ago.
Chose it for it's simplicity. One huge 200A main breaker
in the top, well segregated from smaller breakers.

The entire planet could be plunged into eternal darkness
at the same time that gremlins from outer space put out
my eyes. I could -still- find my way downstairs and identify
the main breaker and switch off with no difficulty.

And if there were any doubt, I'd go outside, snip the seal,
pull the meter, and plop the damned thang down on my
workbench in the basement.

In an emergency, is a no-brainer.

Cheers,
Puddin'

PS: Who believes that linesmen just *grab* conductors without
testing for voltage, etc?
Who believes that 30A, 'tho admittedly dangerous, is really
likely to result in a fatality?

Pease pudding hot,
Pease pudding cold,
Pease pudding in the pot
Nine days old ...

PS: Who believes that linesmen just *grab* conductors without
testing for voltage, etc?
Who believes that 30A, 'tho admittedly dangerous, is really
likely to result in a fatality?


Your logic is impeccapble, but linemen have indeed
died that way, which is why the ones that live get
so grumpy about it when they find you with a
non-compliant setup.

Doug Miller wrote:

In article , Tazz wrote:

isnt pigtailing in the panel also a code violation?

No.

I thought you had to either put each home run or branch circuit on its
on breaker OR have it made up in a J-box intead of taking to the panel
and pigtailing

Lots of people think that -- but nobody's been able to show me where the Code
says that...

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Right, the panel is a listed enclosure where you can make splices. It's
more of a best practices thing since the panel tends to get crowded
anyway and having splices and pigtails in the panel just makes it that
much messier.

Pete C.

On Fri, 22 Dec 2006 11:43:23 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

[snip]

As for dangerous -- only if the main breaker is on.


Like the one time you forgot to turn it off before starting the
generator.

I understand all that might not stop you doing it, but I would advise
against it.

Are you a lawyer?
--
3 days until the winter solstice celebration

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"Never underestimate the power of stupid
people in large groups"

On Fri, 22 Dec 2006 10:10:02 -0600, Puddin' Man
wrote:

On Fri, 22 Dec 2006 14:23:34 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote:

In article , Jim Redelfs wrote:
In article ,
Puddin' Man wrote:

I switch off the main breaker and use a gas powered 40A generator
to backfeed the 30A (220v) circuit for the elec. dryer.

What can I expect? Live circuits, dead circuits? Overload
conditions??

Dead linemen?

Yeah, yeah... You switched off the main breaker, but, in your urgency and in
the dark, flipped the WRONG breaker.

Oh, puhleeeze... don't be ridiculous.

If he has enough light (from a flashlight, candle, oil lamp, moonlight,
sunlight, cig lighter, Coleman lantern, jar full of fireflies, or whatever) to
connect the generator, how do you imagine that he can't see which breaker is
the main?

For that matter, even in the dark, how does he not *feel* which breaker is the
main?

And of course it should be obvious that, once the generator is on, there
*will* be lights available to check to make *sure* that the main is off.

Properly install and use a transfer switch or just run some extension cords to
essential appliances during the outage.

Or be aware of the difference between real and imagined hazards, take steps to
prevent the real ones (such as making sure the main breaker is off), and
ignore the imagined ones. Yes, a transfer switch is the right way to do it.
No, you can't just run an extension cord to a furnace or a well pump. In an
emergency, you do what you have to do.

Thanks, Doug.

I purchased/installed/wired the svc. panel 21 years ago.
Chose it for it's simplicity. One huge 200A main breaker
in the top, well segregated from smaller breakers.

The entire planet could be plunged into eternal darkness
at the same time that gremlins from outer space put out
my eyes. I could -still- find my way downstairs and identify
the main breaker and switch off with no difficulty.


Why do you expect perfection? Such a thing doesn't exist, and can't.
There is no way to be 100% certain of not making a mistake.

And if there were any doubt, I'd go outside, snip the seal,
pull the meter, and plop the damned thang down on my
workbench in the basement.

In an emergency, is a no-brainer.

Cheers,
Puddin'

PS: Who believes that linesmen just *grab* conductors without
testing for voltage, etc?

They could have just tested the line, found it dead, and touched it.
THEN you start your generator...

Who believes that 30A, 'tho admittedly dangerous, is really
likely to result in a fatality?


I suppose your generator outputs 240V/30A. Forget to disconnect from
the power lines, and that is connected to the lower voltage side of a
transformer with a ratio of around 80:1. Those "dead" main lines are
now carrying 19.2KV/375mA (somewhat less since the transformer won't
be 100% efficient). That's more than enough to be fatal.

Pease pudding hot,
Pease pudding cold,
Pease pudding in the pot
Nine days old ...

Was that supposed to be a sig? Where's the separator line?
--
3 days until the winter solstice celebration

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"Never underestimate the power of stupid
people in large groups"

Pete C. wrote:

Doug Miller wrote:

In article , Tazz wrote:

isnt pigtailing in the panel also a code violation?

No.


I thought you had to either put each home run or branch circuit on its
on breaker OR have it made up in a J-box intead of taking to the panel
and pigtailing

Lots of people think that -- but nobody's been able to show me where the Code
says that...

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.


Right, the panel is a listed enclosure where you can make splices. It's
more of a best practices thing since the panel tends to get crowded
anyway and having splices and pigtails in the panel just makes it that
much messier.

Pete C.

I believe it is covered by NEC 312.8 - "Enclosures for switches or
overcurrent devices". Splices are allowed if the fill at any
cross-section is 75% or less.

Wires running through the enclosure are allowed if the fill at any
cross-section is 40% or less. An example would be if the panel ran out
of breakers, existing breakers could be removed to add a breaker for a
subpanel and the wires for the original breakers could be run through
the panel to the new subpanel.

--
bud--

Jim Redelfs wrote:

In article ,
Puddin' Man wrote:


I switch off the main breaker and use a gas powered 40A generator
to backfeed the 30A (220v) circuit for the elec. dryer.

What can I expect? Live circuits, dead circuits? Overload
conditions??


Dead linemen?

Yeah, yeah... You switched off the main breaker, but, in your urgency and in
the dark, flipped the WRONG breaker.

Properly install and use a transfer switch or just run some extension cords to
essential appliances during the outage.

Amen.

--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .

Doug Miller wrote:

In article , CJT wrote:

Puddin' Man wrote:

On Thu, 21 Dec 2006 15:03:01 -0600, CJT wrote:

Puddin' Man wrote:

snip

Suppose, in an emergency scenario, I pick a couple 15A circuits
and switch all the other breakers off? Safe?

Perhaps it would seem so, but I'd personally opt for extension cords.

Jeez, whotta mess ...


There's too great a danger of somebody who is not fully aware of what's
going on flipping a breaker.


"Flipping A breaker" isn't going to do any harm at all unless it's the MAIN
breaker.

That's a multi-occupant thingy. I shoulda stated there's noone
here 'cept me and my Crazy Birddawg.


I'd hate to be the guy responsible for
electrocuting a power company lineman working to restore power.


Keep the main breaker off, and that won't happen.

This would be possible given the main breaker in my house is
switched off? No comprendere, senor.

All it takes is a momentary lapse of attentiveness or (particularly
since we're talking about emergency conditions) somebody new on the
scene.


Flipping the main breaker from off to on isn't the sort of thing that's going
to happen due to a "momentary lapse of attentiveness".

At any rate, I believe it violates code, is illegal, and is dangerous.


Yes, it's a Code violation. Yes, it's illegal. In an emergency, so what?

As for dangerous -- only if the main breaker is on.


I understand all that might not stop you doing it, but I would advise
against it.


Are you a lawyer?

Ever heard of Murphy's law?

--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .

Doug Miller wrote:

In article , Jim Redelfs wrote:

In article ,
Puddin' Man wrote:


I switch off the main breaker and use a gas powered 40A generator
to backfeed the 30A (220v) circuit for the elec. dryer.

What can I expect? Live circuits, dead circuits? Overload
conditions??

Dead linemen?

Yeah, yeah... You switched off the main breaker, but, in your urgency and in
the dark, flipped the WRONG breaker.


Oh, puhleeeze... don't be ridiculous.

If he has enough light (from a flashlight, candle, oil lamp, moonlight,
sunlight, cig lighter, Coleman lantern, jar full of fireflies, or whatever) to
connect the generator, how do you imagine that he can't see which breaker is
the main?

For that matter, even in the dark, how does he not *feel* which breaker is the
main?

And of course it should be obvious that, once the generator is on, there
*will* be lights available to check to make *sure* that the main is off.

Properly install and use a transfer switch or just run some extension cords to
essential appliances during the outage.


Or be aware of the difference between real and imagined hazards, take steps to
prevent the real ones (such as making sure the main breaker is off), and
ignore the imagined ones. Yes, a transfer switch is the right way to do it.
No, you can't just run an extension cord to a furnace or a well pump. In an
emergency, you do what you have to do.

Since this is apparently an anticipated event (or we wouldn't be
discussing it), there's no excuse for allowing it to escalate into an
emergency.

--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .

Puddin' Man wrote:

snip

PS: Who believes that linesmen just *grab* conductors without
testing for voltage, etc?
Who believes that 30A, 'tho admittedly dangerous, is really
likely to result in a fatality?


We don't have to speculate. It has happened.

Pease pudding hot,
Pease pudding cold,
Pease pudding in the pot
Nine days old ...


--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .

In article , Pudding Dot Man At Gmail Dot Com wrote:

Who believes that 30A, 'tho admittedly dangerous, is really
likely to result in a fatality?

Believe it. Why do you suppose ground-fault circuit interrupters have a trip
threshold of five *milli* amperes?


--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

In article , Goedjn wrote:


PS: Who believes that linesmen just *grab* conductors without
testing for voltage, etc?
Who believes that 30A, 'tho admittedly dangerous, is really
likely to result in a fatality?


Your logic is impeccapble, but linemen have indeed
died that way, which is why the ones that live get
so grumpy about it when they find you with a
non-compliant setup.

Well, maybe so, maybe not. I have very recent experience with that: three
weeks ago exactly, a tree limb fell on my service drop during a windstorm.
When the linemen came out to re-string the service, I asked them if they
wanted me to shut off my generator. Crew boss asked if the main breaker was
open (i.e., off). Told him it was. He said I could leave the genny running.

I'm sure they checked, first, before touching anything... but they did the
entire repair with the generator up.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

In article , Mark Lloyd wrote:
On Fri, 22 Dec 2006 10:10:02 -0600, Puddin' Man
wrote:


Why do you expect perfection? Such a thing doesn't exist, and can't.
There is no way to be 100% certain of not making a mistake.

Garbage.

This...

And if there were any doubt, I'd go outside, snip the seal,
pull the meter, and plop the damned thang down on my
workbench in the basement.

... is a 100% certain way of not making the mistake of backfeeding the utility
lines.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

In article , CJT wrote:

Ever heard of Murphy's law?

Ever heard of paying attention to what you're doing?


--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

In article , CJT wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:

In article ,
Jim Redelfs wrote:

In article ,
Puddin' Man wrote:


I switch off the main breaker and use a gas powered 40A generator
to backfeed the 30A (220v) circuit for the elec. dryer.

What can I expect? Live circuits, dead circuits? Overload
conditions??

Dead linemen?

Yeah, yeah... You switched off the main breaker, but, in your urgency and in

the dark, flipped the WRONG breaker.


Oh, puhleeeze... don't be ridiculous.

If he has enough light (from a flashlight, candle, oil lamp, moonlight,
sunlight, cig lighter, Coleman lantern, jar full of fireflies, or whatever)
to
connect the generator, how do you imagine that he can't see which breaker is
the main?

For that matter, even in the dark, how does he not *feel* which breaker is
the
main?

And of course it should be obvious that, once the generator is on, there
*will* be lights available to check to make *sure* that the main is off.

Properly install and use a transfer switch or just run some extension cords
to
essential appliances during the outage.


Or be aware of the difference between real and imagined hazards, take steps
to
prevent the real ones (such as making sure the main breaker is off), and
ignore the imagined ones. Yes, a transfer switch is the right way to do it.
No, you can't just run an extension cord to a furnace or a well pump. In an
emergency, you do what you have to do.

Since this is apparently an anticipated event (or we wouldn't be
discussing it), there's no excuse for allowing it to escalate into an
emergency.

Sure, and in a perfect world ever home would have a transfer switch already
installed.

Is there one in your house?

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Doug Miller wrote:

In article , Goedjn wrote:


PS: Who believes that linesmen just *grab* conductors without
testing for voltage, etc?
Who believes that 30A, 'tho admittedly dangerous, is really
likely to result in a fatality?


Your logic is impeccapble, but linemen have indeed
died that way, which is why the ones that live get
so grumpy about it when they find you with a
non-compliant setup.

Well, maybe so, maybe not. I have very recent experience with that: three
weeks ago exactly, a tree limb fell on my service drop during a windstorm.
When the linemen came out to re-string the service, I asked them if they
wanted me to shut off my generator. Crew boss asked if the main breaker was
open (i.e., off). Told him it was. He said I could leave the genny running.

I'm sure they checked, first, before touching anything... but they did the
entire repair with the generator up.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Right, their comfort level will vary with the situation. In your case
they were dealing with secondary voltage only since it was just your
drop that was down, not primaries on the street. They also only had a
single residence in question, with a generator already running. They
asked and in the process reminded you about the main breaker and also
got some impression of your competence. And of course at 120/240V their
gloves provide plenty of protection even if there was a back feed.

Pete C.

CJT wrote:

Jim Redelfs wrote:

In article ,
Puddin' Man wrote:


I switch off the main breaker and use a gas powered 40A generator
to backfeed the 30A (220v) circuit for the elec. dryer.

What can I expect? Live circuits, dead circuits? Overload
conditions??


Dead linemen?

Yeah, yeah... You switched off the main breaker, but, in your urgency and in
the dark, flipped the WRONG breaker.

Properly install and use a transfer switch or just run some extension cords to
essential appliances during the outage.

Amen.

--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .

Another thought since it's been mentioned is furnaces and well pumps.
I'm not aware of any code requirement that they be hardwired. You can
easily and inexpensively make them cord connected devices with dedicated
outlets, allowing you to readily connect them via extension cords to
your generator.

Pete C.

Doug Miller wrote:

In article , CJT wrote:

Doug Miller wrote:


In article ,

Jim Redelfs wrote:

In article ,
Puddin' Man wrote:



I switch off the main breaker and use a gas powered 40A generator
to backfeed the 30A (220v) circuit for the elec. dryer.

What can I expect? Live circuits, dead circuits? Overload
conditions??

Dead linemen?

Yeah, yeah... You switched off the main breaker, but, in your urgency and in

the dark, flipped the WRONG breaker.


Oh, puhleeeze... don't be ridiculous.

If he has enough light (from a flashlight, candle, oil lamp, moonlight,
sunlight, cig lighter, Coleman lantern, jar full of fireflies, or whatever)

to

connect the generator, how do you imagine that he can't see which breaker is
the main?

For that matter, even in the dark, how does he not *feel* which breaker is

the

main?

And of course it should be obvious that, once the generator is on, there
*will* be lights available to check to make *sure* that the main is off.


Properly install and use a transfer switch or just run some extension cords

to

essential appliances during the outage.


Or be aware of the difference between real and imagined hazards, take steps

to

prevent the real ones (such as making sure the main breaker is off), and
ignore the imagined ones. Yes, a transfer switch is the right way to do it.
No, you can't just run an extension cord to a furnace or a well pump. In an
emergency, you do what you have to do.


Since this is apparently an anticipated event (or we wouldn't be
discussing it), there's no excuse for allowing it to escalate into an
emergency.


Sure, and in a perfect world ever home would have a transfer switch already
installed.

And in a perfect world, nobody would accidentally flip a breaker.


Is there one in your house?



--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .

In article , "Pete C." wrote:

Right, their comfort level will vary with the situation. In your case
they were dealing with secondary voltage only since it was just your
drop that was down, not primaries on the street. They also only had a
single residence in question, with a generator already running. They
asked and in the process reminded you about the main breaker and also
got some impression of your competence.

Exactly so. I understood the foreman's question to me on two levels, and I
answered him on both levels as well:

"Is your main breaker open?" (Do you know what 'open' means?)

"Yes, it's off." (Yes, I know what you mean, and yes, it is.)

And of course at 120/240V their
gloves provide plenty of protection even if there was a back feed.

Yeah, those fellas have some major heavy-duty insulated gloves. :-)

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

In article , CJT wrote:

And in a perfect world, nobody would accidentally flip a breaker.

Be realistic -- who's going to "accidentally" flip the MAIN??

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

On Fri, 22 Dec 2006 19:30:09 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , CJT wrote:

Ever heard of Murphy's law?

Ever heard of paying attention to what you're doing?

Realize that you can never do that 100% of the time, with exactly 0%
chance of error. More simply: perfection isn't.
--
3 days until the winter solstice celebration

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"Never underestimate the power of stupid
people in large groups"

On Fri, 22 Dec 2006 19:26:38 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , Mark Lloyd wrote:
On Fri, 22 Dec 2006 10:10:02 -0600, Puddin' Man
wrote:


Why do you expect perfection? Such a thing doesn't exist, and can't.
There is no way to be 100% certain of not making a mistake.

Garbage.

This...

And if there were any doubt, I'd go outside, snip the seal,
pull the meter, and plop the damned thang down on my
workbench in the basement.

.. is a 100% certain way of not making the mistake of backfeeding the utility
lines.

That is, 100% multiplied by the probability of no mistakes, and that
can NEVER be 100%. Not here. Hot anywhere anything like here.
--
3 days until the winter solstice celebration

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"Never underestimate the power of stupid
people in large groups"

Puddin' Man wrote:

I have a 21 yr-old Cutler-Hammer panel that I installed myself back
around 1984.

No doubt there's numerous houses in which an interlock kit would
make sense. But there's nobody here but po' me, and, to my knowledge,
I don't need to idiot-proof the damned thang. Before any gas
generator were connected, the main breaker -would- be switched
off. And it would stay off until the gen. was removed.

It's your choice. With my electrical utility, if you "tickle" a
lineman, they will stop work, trace down where the electricity is
coming from, cut your lines off, and you will NEVER get electrical
service again. It's a union thing. They will blacklist your address.

In article , Mark Lloyd wrote:
On Fri, 22 Dec 2006 19:26:38 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , Mark Lloyd
wrote:
On Fri, 22 Dec 2006 10:10:02 -0600, Puddin' Man
wrote:


Why do you expect perfection? Such a thing doesn't exist, and can't.
There is no way to be 100% certain of not making a mistake.

Garbage.

This...

And if there were any doubt, I'd go outside, snip the seal,
pull the meter, and plop the damned thang down on my
workbench in the basement.

.. is a 100% certain way of not making the mistake of backfeeding the utility
lines.

That is, 100% multiplied by the probability of no mistakes, and that
can NEVER be 100%. Not here. Hot anywhere anything like here.

What, you think there *is* some way to backfeed the utility with the meter
removed? Not unless you deliberately *try* to do it.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

In article . com, wrote:
Puddin' Man wrote:

I have a 21 yr-old Cutler-Hammer panel that I installed myself back
around 1984.

No doubt there's numerous houses in which an interlock kit would
make sense. But there's nobody here but po' me, and, to my knowledge,
I don't need to idiot-proof the damned thang. Before any gas
generator were connected, the main breaker -would- be switched
off. And it would stay off until the gen. was removed.

It's your choice. With my electrical utility, if you "tickle" a
lineman, they will stop work, trace down where the electricity is
coming from, cut your lines off, and you will NEVER get electrical
service again. It's a union thing. They will blacklist your address.

Sounds like an urban legend to me...

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

On Fri, 22 Dec 2006 20:06:09 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , Mark Lloyd wrote:
On Fri, 22 Dec 2006 19:26:38 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , Mark Lloyd
wrote:
On Fri, 22 Dec 2006 10:10:02 -0600, Puddin' Man
wrote:


Why do you expect perfection? Such a thing doesn't exist, and can't.
There is no way to be 100% certain of not making a mistake.

Garbage.

This...

And if there were any doubt, I'd go outside, snip the seal,
pull the meter, and plop the damned thang down on my
workbench in the basement.

.. is a 100% certain way of not making the mistake of backfeeding the utility
lines.

That is, 100% multiplied by the probability of no mistakes, and that
can NEVER be 100%. Not here. Hot anywhere anything like here.

What, you think there *is* some way to backfeed the utility with the meter
removed? Not unless you deliberately *try* to do it.

I didn't say that. I said that nothing can ever be done with 100%
reliability. That is, there is never a 100% guarantee that you will
remember to remove the meter EVERY time and that that meter will STAY
removed.

I considered doing that (connecting generator that way) once but never
did it because of the small risk of severe consequences.
--
3 days until the winter solstice celebration

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"Never underestimate the power of stupid
people in large groups"

On Fri, 22 Dec 2006 19:48:30 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , CJT wrote:

And in a perfect world, nobody would accidentally flip a breaker.

Be realistic -- who's going to "accidentally" flip the MAIN??

By the time you find out, it'll be too late to stop it.

I never understood why people assume the one thing (perfection) that's
actually impossible.
--
3 days until the winter solstice celebration

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"Never underestimate the power of stupid
people in large groups"

On Fri, 22 Dec 2006 19:36:48 GMT, "Pete C."
wrote:

CJT wrote:

Jim Redelfs wrote:

In article ,
Puddin' Man wrote:


I switch off the main breaker and use a gas powered 40A generator
to backfeed the 30A (220v) circuit for the elec. dryer.

What can I expect? Live circuits, dead circuits? Overload
conditions??


Dead linemen?

Yeah, yeah... You switched off the main breaker, but, in your urgency and in
the dark, flipped the WRONG breaker.

Properly install and use a transfer switch or just run some extension cords to
essential appliances during the outage.

Amen.

--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .

Another thought since it's been mentioned is furnaces and well pumps.
I'm not aware of any code requirement that they be hardwired. You can
easily and inexpensively make them cord connected devices with dedicated
outlets, allowing you to readily connect them via extension cords to
your generator.

Pete C.

My furnace (burns gas so it doesn't need a lot of electricity) is cord
connected. The outlet in there is the only thing on that circuit,
although it's used for the doorbell transformer also.
--
3 days until the winter solstice celebration

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"Never underestimate the power of stupid
people in large groups"

In article , Mark Lloyd wrote:

I didn't say that. I said that nothing can ever be done with 100%
reliability. That is, there is never a 100% guarantee that you will
remember to remove the meter EVERY time and that that meter will STAY
removed.

This is getting absurd. Do you think the meter is going to get up off the
ground, climb the wall, and reinstall itself into the base?

I considered doing that (connecting generator that way) once but never
did it because of the small risk of severe consequences.

I guess if you don't trust yourself to throw the main breaker, and/or don't
trust other members of your household to leave it alone, then this makes
sense.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

In article , Mark Lloyd wrote:
On Fri, 22 Dec 2006 19:48:30 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , CJT wrote:

And in a perfect world, nobody would accidentally flip a breaker.

Be realistic -- who's going to "accidentally" flip the MAIN??

By the time you find out, it'll be too late to stop it.

I never understood why people assume the one thing (perfection) that's
actually impossible.

Like I said... be realistic. Learn to distinguish real hazards from imagined
ones. Do what you can to prevent the real ones -- and ignore the ones that
arise only from your imagination.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Doug Miller wrote:

In article , Mark Lloyd wrote:

On Fri, 22 Dec 2006 19:48:30 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:


In article , CJT wrote:


And in a perfect world, nobody would accidentally flip a breaker.

Be realistic -- who's going to "accidentally" flip the MAIN??

By the time you find out, it'll be too late to stop it.

I never understood why people assume the one thing (perfection) that's
actually impossible.


Like I said... be realistic. Learn to distinguish real hazards from imagined
ones. Do what you can to prevent the real ones -- and ignore the ones that
arise only from your imagination.

Given that linemen have died in situations similar to what we're
discussing, I think we need to consider this a "real" hazard.

--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .

In article ,
(Doug Miller) wrote:

Yeah, those fellas have some major heavy-duty insulated gloves. :-)

Ours (telco) are rated to 20kv, the local power utility's to 35kv.

And, yes... We test everything before touching it following a storm.

Still, with all the idiots out there, and the increasingly popularity of
generators, it's a pretty scary thought that someone would simply splice-up a
two-male-ended cord and plug 'er in without a thought to open the main breaker
or pull the meter.
--

JR

In article ,
Mark Lloyd wrote:

They could have just tested the line, found it dead, and touched it.
THEN you start your generator...

Not to support the other "side" but, once tested and found safe, power guys
bond-to-ground the stuff on which they're working.
--

JR

In article , "Pete C."
wrote:

Another thought since it's been mentioned is furnaces and well pumps.
I'm not aware of any code requirement that they be hardwired. You can
easily and inexpensively make them cord connected devices with dedicated
outlets, allowing you to readily connect them via extension cords to
your generator.

I WAS going to do just that when we replaced our furnace last February.
However, since the low temp during the outage was -8F, we were in a bit of a
hurry to get it back up-and-running, so I "hard-wired" it as before.

I suspect that, during a protracted outage, I could easily and quickly attach
a plug to the input and be warm again.
--

JR

On Fri, 22 Dec 2006 22:06:27 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , Mark Lloyd wrote:

I didn't say that. I said that nothing can ever be done with 100%
reliability. That is, there is never a 100% guarantee that you will
remember to remove the meter EVERY time and that that meter will STAY
removed.

This is getting absurd. Do you think the meter is going to get up off the
ground, climb the wall, and reinstall itself into the base?

That is absurd, considering that is one of the LESS likely
possibilities.


I considered doing that (connecting generator that way) once but never
did it because of the small risk of severe consequences.

I guess if you don't trust yourself to throw the main breaker,

I don't consider myself perfect. That's enough.

and/or don't
trust other members of your household to leave it alone, then this makes
sense.
--
3 days until the winter solstice celebration

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"Never underestimate the power of stupid
people in large groups"

On Fri, 22 Dec 2006 22:07:40 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , Mark Lloyd wrote:
On Fri, 22 Dec 2006 19:48:30 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , CJT wrote:

And in a perfect world, nobody would accidentally flip a breaker.

Be realistic -- who's going to "accidentally" flip the MAIN??

By the time you find out, it'll be too late to stop it.

I never understood why people assume the one thing (perfection) that's
actually impossible.

Like I said... be realistic. Learn to distinguish real hazards from imagined
ones. Do what you can to prevent the real ones -- and ignore the ones that
arise only from your imagination.

Actually, they arose from other posters on this group first.
--
3 days until the winter solstice celebration

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"Never underestimate the power of stupid
people in large groups"