On 3/9/2014 7:06 PM, Max wrote:
On 3/9/2014 3:26 PM, Leon wrote:
On 3/9/2014 2:13 PM, Max wrote:
On 3/9/2014 10:28 AM, wrote:

some snip...but..

The SawStop mechanism DOES NOT double the price of the saw. It doesn't
even come close. The SawStop tablesaw itself is a well made, very
decent operating tablesaw with top notch fit and finish.

There's a number of regular $3000 tablesaws on the market and the
SawStop is as good if not better than all of them.


And that's a consensus or just an opinion. ;-)



It is a consensus. Most all TS reports, with the SawStop involved,
most always place the SawStop as a top quality machine.


Simply the arbor/trunnion assembly is quite HD on all models when
compared to the competition.

If it's a consensus how do other manufacturers manage to stay in business?


That is kind of a jerk knee question. A bit of research would provide
those answers.

But,

Delta by a thread. They are but a small fraction in size and in
offerings compared to what they offered 5~8 years ago.

Have you actually asked a store that sells SawStop how the SS units sell
compared to the other brands?

On Sun, 09 Mar 2014 13:18:27 -0400, wrote:
Bull****. Like most suck-ups, you're talking out both sides of your
mouth. You admit that price is an issue and that there is a decision
to be made, yet you denigrate those who don't agree with a choice
you've NEVER MADE and probably never will

Well, as usual, when you've got nothing of value to add to the
discussion, you spiral down into insulting rhetoric. It must be really
difficult to be you. My condolences.

On 3/9/2014 7:18 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
On Sun, 09 Mar 2014 16:26:43 -0500, Leon wrote:

Simply the arbor/trunnion assembly is quite HD on all models when
compared to the competition.

That's certainly true. It *has* to be heavier to take the shock when/if
the brake fires.

Exactly and that benefits the user with a better built arbor/trunnion
assembly.


But I worked for a power tool retailer for a few years and had the
opportunity to examine (and @#$% assemble) several brands and types of
table saws. I think the cabinet saws from Powermatic, General, and maybe
even Steel City, are equal or better in quality to the Sawstop.

That could be true but there is a lot of data that indicates SawStop is
a bit ahead. Considering that I was looking at $5k+ saws a year ago I
was looking pretty closely at the innards of each brand. PM, The Euro
Laguna's, Felder, and Hammer were all in the hunt. General would have
been had I been able to easily see one. Steel City may not be around
much longer and I was never really impressed with that brand.


A prospective buyer has to weigh the importance of quality, price, and
features. Different people will come to different conclusions.



That is exactly true. Some people will buy an American or German
product but never again after having the opportunity to use or own a
Japanese product. It is all in how much value you place in safety,
quality, value. etc. Safety is my personal top of the list and is the
leading reason that I recently bought the industrial SS over the Laguna
TS with the scoring blade.

On 3/9/2014 7:52 PM, Bill wrote:
Leon wrote:
On 3/9/2014 7:06 PM, Max wrote:
On 3/9/2014 3:26 PM, Leon wrote:
On 3/9/2014 2:13 PM, Max wrote:
On 3/9/2014 10:28 AM, wrote:

some snip...but..

The SawStop mechanism DOES NOT double the price of the saw. It
doesn't
even come close. The SawStop tablesaw itself is a well made, very
decent operating tablesaw with top notch fit and finish.

There's a number of regular $3000 tablesaws on the market and the
SawStop is as good if not better than all of them.


And that's a consensus or just an opinion. ;-)



It is a consensus. Most all TS reports, with the SawStop involved,
most always place the SawStop as a top quality machine.


Simply the arbor/trunnion assembly is quite HD on all models when
compared to the competition.

If it's a consensus how do other manufacturers manage to stay in
business?


That is kind of a jerk knee question. A bit of research would provide
those answers.

But,

Delta by a thread. They are but a small fraction in size and in
offerings compared to what they offered 5~8 years ago.

Have you actually asked a store that sells SawStop how the SS units
sell compared to the other brands?

My local Woodcraft store says nobody buys anything else. I don't
believe them.


You may have been taking them a bit too literally. ;~) More
believable, my Woodcraft says that SawStop out sells all the other
brands combined. Then again Woodcraft is pricey and their prime target
customer may be willing to spend more for something that they want.

When I was shopping and ready to pull the trigger on the industrial SS I
was looking at the unit in the store shop. Another customer was
considering the same industrial SS. Mass is always a good thing on a
quality saw, less vibration. I told the guy to lift the right extension
table. It would not budge with out considerable effort. He bought the
saw. This particular saw weighs just shy of 700lbs with the 52" fence.
Ironically the hydraulic lift mobile base that SS sells for the
industrial saw moves the saw with a push of the finger. I have to be
careful not to leave my saw unattended in the lifted position. My
garage has a slight slope towards the street and it will roll out of the
garage on it's own.

Leon wrote:
On 3/9/2014 7:52 PM, Bill wrote:
Leon wrote:
On 3/9/2014 7:06 PM, Max wrote:
On 3/9/2014 3:26 PM, Leon wrote:
On 3/9/2014 2:13 PM, Max wrote:
On 3/9/2014 10:28 AM, wrote:

some snip...but..

The SawStop mechanism DOES NOT double the price of the saw. It
doesn't
even come close. The SawStop tablesaw itself is a well made, very
decent operating tablesaw with top notch fit and finish.

There's a number of regular $3000 tablesaws on the market and the
SawStop is as good if not better than all of them.


And that's a consensus or just an opinion. ;-)



It is a consensus. Most all TS reports, with the SawStop involved,
most always place the SawStop as a top quality machine.


Simply the arbor/trunnion assembly is quite HD on all models when
compared to the competition.

If it's a consensus how do other manufacturers manage to stay in
business?


That is kind of a jerk knee question. A bit of research would provide
those answers.

But,

Delta by a thread. They are but a small fraction in size and in
offerings compared to what they offered 5~8 years ago.

Have you actually asked a store that sells SawStop how the SS units
sell compared to the other brands?

My local Woodcraft store says nobody buys anything else. I don't
believe them.


You may have been taking them a bit too literally. ;~) More
believable, my Woodcraft says that SawStop out sells all the other
brands combined.

They eventually moved most of the other saws out of the place. My
thinking is that their commissions and markups are much higher on
SawStop. They act in a way which is consistent with that. I don't see
them doing any other sort of table saw demonstrations on Saturday
morning! I don't begrudge them anything, I'm sure it's a tough
business to maintain. I could do with out the "selling by fear" sales
tactic.

Bill


Then again Woodcraft is pricey and their prime target customer may be
willing to spend more for something that they want.

When I was shopping and ready to pull the trigger on the industrial SS
I was looking at the unit in the store shop. Another customer was
considering the same industrial SS. Mass is always a good thing on a
quality saw, less vibration. I told the guy to lift the right
extension table. It would not budge with out considerable effort. He
bought the saw. This particular saw weighs just shy of 700lbs with
the 52" fence. Ironically the hydraulic lift mobile base that SS
sells for the industrial saw moves the saw with a push of the finger.
I have to be careful not to leave my saw unattended in the lifted
position. My garage has a slight slope towards the street and it will
roll out of the garage on it's own.

On Sun, 09 Mar 2014 20:05:02 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
That is exactly true. Some people will buy an American or German
product but never again after having the opportunity to use or own a
Japanese product. It is all in how much value you place in safety,
quality, value. etc. Safety is my personal top of the list and is the
leading reason that I recently bought the industrial SS over the Laguna
TS with the scoring blade.

In conjunction with your thumb injury years ago, your woodworking is
frequently used for making a living. I suspect your wife's opinion
might be an additional factor. All those factors added together would
be a great motivator for a SawStop purchase.

On 3/9/2014 8:17 PM, Leon wrote:

Ironically the hydraulic lift mobile base that SS sells for the
industrial saw moves the saw with a push of the finger. I have to be
careful not to leave my saw unattended in the lifted position. My
garage has a slight slope towards the street and it will roll out of the
garage on it's own.

Be sure to nudge it in this direction should that happen. I know it's 24
miles, but I'd hate to see you get hurt on a SawStop trying to push it
uphill.

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On Sun, 09 Mar 2014 21:23:53 -0400, Bill
morning! I don't begrudge them anything, I'm sure it's a tough
business to maintain. I could do with out the "selling by fear" sales
tactic.

Unfortunately, until SawStop patents expire and competitors get
onboard, fear always will be one of the greatest purchaser motivators.

It's usually only for the more discerning, hard core or professional
woodworkers, that fit, finish and build quality of the SawStops comes
into play.

On 3/9/2014 8:23 PM, Bill wrote:

They eventually moved most of the other saws out of the place. My
thinking is that their commissions and markups are much higher on
SawStop. They act in a way which is consistent with that. I don't see
them doing any other sort of table saw demonstrations on Saturday
morning! I don't begrudge them anything, I'm sure it's a tough
business to maintain. I could do with out the "selling by fear" sales
tactic.

It could well be that the fear of a lawsuit for selling something a jury
would deem unsafe is at least part of that reason.

Most of the jury pool is sufficiently dumbed down to believe anything a
lawyer tells them; and it is unlikely that they have ever operated a
table saw, or even seen one, since shop classes were considered too
dangerous when they were little yuppies-in-training.

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On Sun, 09 Mar 2014 20:42:00 -0500, Swingman wrote:
Most of the jury pool is sufficiently dumbed down to believe anything a
lawyer tells them; and it is unlikely that they have ever operated a
table saw, or even seen one, since shop classes were considered too
dangerous when they were little yuppies-in-training.

I've been wondering. We've all heard details of the law suits where
they've awarded large money amounts in non-SawStop tablesaw injuries.

Has anybody seen any statistics where awards have been minimal in
other similar types of law suits?

In other words, how many similar suits have been a failure because
jurors were not sufficiently dumbed down?

On 3/9/2014 8:52 PM, Bill wrote:

Have you actually asked a store that sells SawStop how the SS units
sell compared to the other brands?

My local Woodcraft store says nobody buys anything else. I don't
believe them.


They don't even list Delta on their website, but lots of SawStop.

On 3/9/2014 6:47 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 3/9/2014 8:06 PM, Max wrote:


And that's a consensus or just an opinion. ;-)



It is a consensus. Most all TS reports, with the SawStop involved,
most always place the SawStop as a top quality machine.


Simply the arbor/trunnion assembly is quite HD on all models when
compared to the competition.

If it's a consensus how do other manufacturers manage to stay in
business?

By making sales of tablesaws. While the consensus is Lamborghini is a
fun car to drive to work, most of us can't afford one for an every day
driver. Sears still sells a bunch of the $299 saws to people that would
rather have a $1500 SawStop.

I had in mind the Unisaws and Powermatics that seem to be still selling.
I question the comparability of a Sears $299 table saw.

On 3/9/2014 6:53 PM, Leon wrote:
On 3/9/2014 7:06 PM, Max wrote:
On 3/9/2014 3:26 PM, Leon wrote:
On 3/9/2014 2:13 PM, Max wrote:
On 3/9/2014 10:28 AM, wrote:

some snip...but..

The SawStop mechanism DOES NOT double the price of the saw. It doesn't
even come close. The SawStop tablesaw itself is a well made, very
decent operating tablesaw with top notch fit and finish.

There's a number of regular $3000 tablesaws on the market and the
SawStop is as good if not better than all of them.


And that's a consensus or just an opinion. ;-)



It is a consensus. Most all TS reports, with the SawStop involved,
most always place the SawStop as a top quality machine.


Simply the arbor/trunnion assembly is quite HD on all models when
compared to the competition.

If it's a consensus how do other manufacturers manage to stay in
business?


That is kind of a jerk knee question. A bit of research would provide
those answers.

But,

Delta by a thread. They are but a small fraction in size and in
offerings compared to what they offered 5~8 years ago.

Have you actually asked a store that sells SawStop how the SS units sell
compared to the other brands?


No, Leon, I haven't. As I've said, I'm not questioning the quality of
the SawStop but rather the "consensus".
And not the consensus of just the "wreck". There must be a market for
the other "quality" table saws or the SawStop would put its competitors
out of business. (and not saying that won't happen either) ;-)

The last time this issue surfaced I mentioned that *if* I bought one the
first time that brake busted my saw and blade I would trade it for
a saw without the feature. In other words there's more to the equation
than saving a finger. For me.

On 3/9/2014 6:34 PM, Leon wrote:
On 3/9/2014 7:30 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
On Sun, 09 Mar 2014 18:09:31 -0500, Leon wrote:

And if yu simply don't want to send any pennies Gass's way that is OK
too.
;~)

Well, there is that :-).

But now that we've resurrected the Sawstop debate, would the original
poster please tell us what he decided to buy. Or did we thoroughly
confuse the issue?



Yeah Buckwheat, Tyrone, Max, Larry J. Which did you decide on. I think
you know who may be all four of these guys.

I have a Unisaw with which I am well pleased...except for dust
collection. *If* I should decide that I want a new table saw I can tell
you right now that dust collection will be the deciding factor after
comparable quality.

On 3/9/2014 8:23 PM, Bill wrote:
Leon wrote:
On 3/9/2014 7:52 PM, Bill wrote:
Leon wrote:
On 3/9/2014 7:06 PM, Max wrote:
On 3/9/2014 3:26 PM, Leon wrote:
On 3/9/2014 2:13 PM, Max wrote:
On 3/9/2014 10:28 AM, wrote:

some snip...but..

The SawStop mechanism DOES NOT double the price of the saw. It
doesn't
even come close. The SawStop tablesaw itself is a well made, very
decent operating tablesaw with top notch fit and finish.

There's a number of regular $3000 tablesaws on the market and the
SawStop is as good if not better than all of them.


And that's a consensus or just an opinion. ;-)



It is a consensus. Most all TS reports, with the SawStop involved,
most always place the SawStop as a top quality machine.


Simply the arbor/trunnion assembly is quite HD on all models when
compared to the competition.

If it's a consensus how do other manufacturers manage to stay in
business?


That is kind of a jerk knee question. A bit of research would provide
those answers.

But,

Delta by a thread. They are but a small fraction in size and in
offerings compared to what they offered 5~8 years ago.

Have you actually asked a store that sells SawStop how the SS units
sell compared to the other brands?

My local Woodcraft store says nobody buys anything else. I don't
believe them.


You may have been taking them a bit too literally. ;~) More
believable, my Woodcraft says that SawStop out sells all the other
brands combined.

They eventually moved most of the other saws out of the place. My
thinking is that their commissions and markups are much higher on
SawStop. They act in a way which is consistent with that. I don't see
them doing any other sort of table saw demonstrations on Saturday
morning! I don't begrudge them anything, I'm sure it's a tough
business to maintain. I could do with out the "selling by fear" sales
tactic.

Increased profit could be it. One thing to consider however and unless
something has changed in the last year, Woodcraft does not stock SawStop
industrial saws in their stores. They have plenty of the rest but when
I ordered my industrial version I got the distinct impression that
SawStop wanted it that way. My saw came directly from SawStop to
Woodcraft to me only after I ordered. Additionally one cannot order an
industrial version from a dealer that is not in his or her state. You
have to order from a dealer in your state. As far as the Pro and
Contractor versions go you can order them from whom ever yu like.

So with that in mind if buying an industrial SS there is no advantage in
delivery time, all things being equal, over another brand that is sold
by a the same dealer.

On 3/9/2014 8:29 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 3/9/2014 8:17 PM, Leon wrote:

Ironically the hydraulic lift mobile base that SS sells for the
industrial saw moves the saw with a push of the finger. I have to be
careful not to leave my saw unattended in the lifted position. My
garage has a slight slope towards the street and it will roll out of the
garage on it's own.

Be sure to nudge it in this direction should that happen. I know it's 24
miles, but I'd hate to see you get hurt on a SawStop trying to push it
uphill.



Ill certainly let you know if I need help getting it back up the ledge. LOL

Max wrote:
On 3/9/2014 6:53 PM, Leon wrote:
On 3/9/2014 7:06 PM, Max wrote:
On 3/9/2014 3:26 PM, Leon wrote:
On 3/9/2014 2:13 PM, Max wrote:
On 3/9/2014 10:28 AM, wrote:

some snip...but..

The SawStop mechanism DOES NOT double the price of the saw. It
doesn't
even come close. The SawStop tablesaw itself is a well made, very
decent operating tablesaw with top notch fit and finish.

There's a number of regular $3000 tablesaws on the market and the
SawStop is as good if not better than all of them.


And that's a consensus or just an opinion. ;-)



It is a consensus. Most all TS reports, with the SawStop involved,
most always place the SawStop as a top quality machine.


Simply the arbor/trunnion assembly is quite HD on all models when
compared to the competition.

If it's a consensus how do other manufacturers manage to stay in
business?


That is kind of a jerk knee question. A bit of research would provide
those answers.

But,

Delta by a thread. They are but a small fraction in size and in
offerings compared to what they offered 5~8 years ago.

Have you actually asked a store that sells SawStop how the SS units sell
compared to the other brands?


No, Leon, I haven't. As I've said, I'm not questioning the quality of
the SawStop but rather the "consensus".
And not the consensus of just the "wreck". There must be a market for
the other "quality" table saws or the SawStop would put its
competitors out of business. (and not saying that won't happen either)
;-)

The last time this issue surfaced I mentioned that *if* I bought one
the first time that brake busted my saw and blade I would trade it for
a saw without the feature. In other words there's more to the equation
than saving a finger. For me.


If you review the owners manual (which I did), you'll find there's
plenty more to the equation.

On 3/9/2014 10:29 PM, Max wrote:
On 3/9/2014 6:53 PM, Leon wrote:
On 3/9/2014 7:06 PM, Max wrote:
On 3/9/2014 3:26 PM, Leon wrote:
On 3/9/2014 2:13 PM, Max wrote:
On 3/9/2014 10:28 AM, wrote:

some snip...but..

The SawStop mechanism DOES NOT double the price of the saw. It
doesn't
even come close. The SawStop tablesaw itself is a well made, very
decent operating tablesaw with top notch fit and finish.

There's a number of regular $3000 tablesaws on the market and the
SawStop is as good if not better than all of them.


And that's a consensus or just an opinion. ;-)



It is a consensus. Most all TS reports, with the SawStop involved,
most always place the SawStop as a top quality machine.


Simply the arbor/trunnion assembly is quite HD on all models when
compared to the competition.

If it's a consensus how do other manufacturers manage to stay in
business?


That is kind of a jerk knee question. A bit of research would provide
those answers.

But,

Delta by a thread. They are but a small fraction in size and in
offerings compared to what they offered 5~8 years ago.

Have you actually asked a store that sells SawStop how the SS units sell
compared to the other brands?


No, Leon, I haven't. As I've said, I'm not questioning the quality of
the SawStop but rather the "consensus".
And not the consensus of just the "wreck". There must be a market for
the other "quality" table saws or the SawStop would put its competitors
out of business. (and not saying that won't happen either) ;-)

Repeating what I have mentioned in another part of this thread, there
have been numerous publications with comparisons and the SawStop tends
to come out on top. I did a lot of Googling prior to spending $4k for
my SS. And as I mentioned above, Delta is almost there and or was a
couple of years ago. I saw a video of their come back from the dead
production facility. A brand new facility IIRC. It at the time a
couple of years ago appeared to be about the size of a 15~20 bar
automotive repair shop. I was rather shocked.







The last time this issue surfaced I mentioned that *if* I bought one the
first time that brake busted my saw and blade I would trade it for
a saw without the feature. In other words there's more to the equation
than saving a finger. For me.

I don't think you would have any worries with the brake busting the saw.
The same contractor saw gets demonstrated time and again during most
wood working shows. If the contractor and pro versions operate in the
same manner there is a release of the arbor assembly as it drops below
the table surface. Energy is absorbed by the brake and the rubber
bumper stop at the bottom of the drop.

If the contractors saw can take the rigors of the brake engaging time
and again I seriously doubt that any thing in the industrial version
would be at risk with all of its mass under the table.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/8635558850/

On 3/9/2014 8:25 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 09 Mar 2014 20:05:02 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
That is exactly true. Some people will buy an American or German
product but never again after having the opportunity to use or own a
Japanese product. It is all in how much value you place in safety,
quality, value. etc. Safety is my personal top of the list and is the
leading reason that I recently bought the industrial SS over the Laguna
TS with the scoring blade.

In conjunction with your thumb injury years ago, your woodworking is
frequently used for making a living. I suspect your wife's opinion
might be an additional factor. All those factors added together would
be a great motivator for a SawStop purchase.



She knew that I was proponent of the saw and gave me the go ahead
shortly after helping me with cutting a panel last spring. ;~)

There was a planed for and anticipated incident that got her attention.

On 3/9/2014 9:20 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 3/9/2014 8:52 PM, Bill wrote:

Have you actually asked a store that sells SawStop how the SS units
sell compared to the other brands?

My local Woodcraft store says nobody buys anything else. I don't
believe them.


They don't even list Delta on their website, but lots of SawStop.


Retail 101, you sell and stock to meet demand.

On 3/10/2014 12:27 AM, Leon wrote:
On 3/9/2014 9:20 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 3/9/2014 8:52 PM, Bill wrote:

Have you actually asked a store that sells SawStop how the SS units
sell compared to the other brands?

My local Woodcraft store says nobody buys anything else. I don't
believe them.


They don't even list Delta on their website, but lots of SawStop.


Retail 101, you sell and stock to meet demand.

Possibly another economic factor too. Lawyers tend to drag everyone
into the suits that has loose change in their pockets. "Woodcraft
knowingly sold this XYZ brand to my client knowing he could cut his
penis off if he jumped on top of the saw"

On 3/10/2014 10:28 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 3/10/2014 12:27 AM, Leon wrote:
On 3/9/2014 9:20 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 3/9/2014 8:52 PM, Bill wrote:

Have you actually asked a store that sells SawStop how the SS units
sell compared to the other brands?

My local Woodcraft store says nobody buys anything else. I don't
believe them.


They don't even list Delta on their website, but lots of SawStop.


Retail 101, you sell and stock to meet demand.

Possibly another economic factor too. Lawyers tend to drag everyone
into the suits that has loose change in their pockets. "Woodcraft
knowingly sold this XYZ brand to my client knowing he could cut his
penis off if he jumped on top of the saw"


Yes that could explain why they are pushing that particular product but
I'm sure that you could still buy any brand that they carry and or have
a relationship with if the customer wanted that. Either way the
customer is getting a quality product if he is buying SawStop. It is
not like they are pushing some thing like what you would find at Harbor
Freight or Sears as their line of preference.

"Bill" wrote

They eventually moved most of the other saws out of the place. My
thinking is that their commissions and markups are much higher on SawStop.
They act in a way which is consistent with that. I don't see them doing
any other sort of table saw demonstrations on Saturday morning! I don't
begrudge them anything, I'm sure it's a tough business to maintain. I
could do with out the "selling by fear" sales tactic.

I can't speak for woodcraft. They are a bit pricy, but do sell some quality
products. And any retail store that sells to a demographic that is up the
ladder from hobbyists or home repair guys wants to project an image. With
products to match that image.

I find it interesting that a store is selling a quality product and you
reduce this whole marketing and retailing approach as a "selling by fear"
sales tactic. Maybe it is just a sell a quality product because it makes
sense for our demographic and targeted market. Remember, you can get the
cheaper saw many other places. Not that many places to get a SawStop.

You seem strongly emotionally involved in this. Do you do this kind of
thing with other retailers? Or do you just reserve this kind of hostility
for Woodcraft? Or is it a SawStop thing?

You have to remember that the retail world is changing, big time. Office
Max is substantially reducing their stores. They do half of their business
online now. And almost a quarter of their in store sales is selling
computer printing supplies. You don't need a big box store to sell printing
supplies. Radio Shack is closing one quarter of their stores. I don't see
a future for Radio Shack. Retail is tough, and becoming more so every day.

Now, I don't want to make you consider things that you find totally
objectionable. But consider this. If Woodcraft fallowed a strategy that
you would find pleasing, they very well may be out of business in the near
future. You have to let them do what they have to survive in a increasing
competitive environment.

I also feel left out in various businesses product offerings. There has
been a number of innovative restaurants that have opened near me that I just
loved. I loved the food, environment, pricing, etc. And the all went out
of business. I do like barbeque joints though. I can bitch and complain
all I want. But guess what? I am not part of a demographic that would
support such a an eating establishment. If there were more people like me,
those place would still be in business. Without sufficient numbers, these
bright, creative ideas perish.

Sooo.........., I bitch and complain and get by.

On Sun, 09 Mar 2014 20:53:30 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 09 Mar 2014 13:18:27 -0400, wrote:
Bull****. Like most suck-ups, you're talking out both sides of your
mouth. You admit that price is an issue and that there is a decision
to be made, yet you denigrate those who don't agree with a choice
you've NEVER MADE and probably never will

Well, as usual, when you've got nothing of value to add to the
discussion, you spiral down into insulting rhetoric. It must be really
difficult to be you. My condolences.

Well, as usual, you've shown your true colors. Please killfile me or
STFU.

On Mon, 10 Mar 2014 00:23:29 +0000 (UTC), Larry Blanchard
wrote:

On Sun, 09 Mar 2014 13:03:10 -0400, none wrote:

As usual, your fact are full of holes.

Powermatic PM2000 ~ $3000
Delta 36-L352 ~ $3000
SawStop Professional cabinet saw ~ $3000

That's the low end Sawstop. The original is about $4500/

His whole example was done to lie. It's his MO.

On Mon, 10 Mar 2014 12:03:44 -0400, "Lee Michaels"
leemichaels*nadaspam* at comcast dot net wrote:


I find it interesting that a store is selling a quality product and you
reduce this whole marketing and retailing approach as a "selling by fear"
sales tactic. Maybe it is just a sell a quality product because it makes
sense for our demographic and targeted market. Remember, you can get the
cheaper saw many other places. Not that many places to get a SawStop.

Huh? Of the four places I frequent in the Atlanta area, three carry
SawStop. The same retailers who carry Festool. ;-) Even Amazon
carries SawStop (sold by Amazon, not one of the other three).

On Sun, 09 Mar 2014 21:37:48 -0600, Max wrote:

On 3/9/2014 6:34 PM, Leon wrote:
On 3/9/2014 7:30 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
On Sun, 09 Mar 2014 18:09:31 -0500, Leon wrote:

And if yu simply don't want to send any pennies Gass's way that is OK
too.
;~)

Well, there is that :-).

But now that we've resurrected the Sawstop debate, would the original
poster please tell us what he decided to buy. Or did we thoroughly
confuse the issue?



Yeah Buckwheat, Tyrone, Max, Larry J. Which did you decide on. I think
you know who may be all four of these guys.

I have a Unisaw with which I am well pleased...except for dust
collection. *If* I should decide that I want a new table saw I can tell
you right now that dust collection will be the deciding factor after
comparable quality.

Say Amen!

On 3/10/2014 10:03 AM, Lee Michaels wrote:


"Bill" wrote

They eventually moved most of the other saws out of the place. My
thinking is that their commissions and markups are much higher on
SawStop. They act in a way which is consistent with that. I don't see
them doing any other sort of table saw demonstrations on Saturday
morning! I don't begrudge them anything, I'm sure it's a tough
business to maintain. I could do with out the "selling by fear" sales
tactic.

I can't speak for woodcraft. They are a bit pricy, but do sell some
quality products. And any retail store that sells to a demographic that
is up the ladder from hobbyists or home repair guys wants to project an
image. With products to match that image.

I find it interesting that a store is selling a quality product and you
reduce this whole marketing and retailing approach as a "selling by
fear" sales tactic. Maybe it is just a sell a quality product because
it makes sense for our demographic and targeted market. Remember, you
can get the cheaper saw many other places. Not that many places to get
a SawStop.

You seem strongly emotionally involved in this. Do you do this kind of
thing with other retailers? Or do you just reserve this kind of
hostility for Woodcraft? Or is it a SawStop thing?

You have to remember that the retail world is changing, big time.
Office Max is substantially reducing their stores. They do half of
their business online now. And almost a quarter of their in store sales
is selling computer printing supplies. You don't need a big box store to
sell printing supplies. Radio Shack is closing one quarter of their
stores. I don't see a future for Radio Shack. Retail is tough, and
becoming more so every day.

Now, I don't want to make you consider things that you find totally
objectionable. But consider this. If Woodcraft fallowed a strategy
that you would find pleasing, they very well may be out of business in
the near future. You have to let them do what they have to survive in a
increasing competitive environment.

I also feel left out in various businesses product offerings. There has
been a number of innovative restaurants that have opened near me that I
just loved. I loved the food, environment, pricing, etc. And the all
went out of business. I do like barbeque joints though. I can bitch
and complain all I want. But guess what? I am not part of a
demographic that would support such a an eating establishment. If there
were more people like me, those place would still be in business.
Without sufficient numbers, these bright, creative ideas perish.

Sooo.........., I bitch and complain and get by.


Me too. ;-)

On Sun, 09 Mar 2014 22:20:10 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 3/9/2014 8:52 PM, Bill wrote:

Have you actually asked a store that sells SawStop how the SS units
sell compared to the other brands?

My local Woodcraft store says nobody buys anything else. I don't
believe them.


They don't even list Delta on their website, but lots of SawStop.

And lots of Powermatic, and a couple of Jet, ...

http://www.woodcraft.com/category/4/...binet%20Table%
20Saws.aspx?start=36

--
Where have all the flowers gone? Pete Seeger 1919-2014

Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 3/10/2014 12:27 AM, Leon wrote:
On 3/9/2014 9:20 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 3/9/2014 8:52 PM, Bill wrote:

Have you actually asked a store that sells SawStop how the SS
units sell compared to the other brands?

My local Woodcraft store says nobody buys anything else. I don't
believe them.


They don't even list Delta on their website, but lots of SawStop.


Retail 101, you sell and stock to meet demand.

Possibly another economic factor too. Lawyers tend to drag everyone
into the suits that has loose change in their pockets. "Woodcraft
knowingly sold this XYZ brand to my client knowing he could cut his
penis off if he jumped on top of the saw"

I don't buy that one. I admit that I do not follow this stuff, but it seems
to me that the lawsuits that have been filed and won were against the
manufacturer and not against the retailers. It seems to me that retailers
are not being held accountable in the manner that you suggest.

--

-Mike-

Lee Michaels wrote:


I find it interesting that a store is selling a quality product and
you reduce this whole marketing and retailing approach as a "selling
by fear" sales tactic. Maybe it is just a sell a quality product
because it makes sense for our demographic and targeted market. Remember,
you can get the cheaper saw many other places. Not that
many places to get a SawStop.

Bingo.


You have to remember that the retail world is changing, big time. Office
Max is substantially reducing their stores. They do half of
their business online now. And almost a quarter of their in store
sales is selling computer printing supplies. You don't need a big box
store to sell printing supplies. Radio Shack is closing one quarter
of their stores. I don't see a future for Radio Shack. Retail is
tough, and becoming more so every day.

Bingo again! Stores like Woodcraft do not attract enough walk in business
to stock a diverse selection. They have to stock what moves. That's just
market dynamics.


I also feel left out in various businesses product offerings. There
has been a number of innovative restaurants that have opened near me
that I just loved. I loved the food, environment, pricing, etc. And
the all went out of business. I do like barbeque joints though. I
can bitch and complain all I want. But guess what? I am not part of
a demographic that would support such a an eating establishment. If
there were more people like me, those place would still be in
business. Without sufficient numbers, these bright, creative ideas
perish.

Geeze Lee - you nailed it!

--

-Mike-

On 3/10/2014 11:24 AM, wrote:
On Mon, 10 Mar 2014 00:23:29 +0000 (UTC), Larry Blanchard
wrote:

On Sun, 09 Mar 2014 13:03:10 -0400, none wrote:

As usual, your fact are full of holes.

Powermatic PM2000 ~ $3000
Delta 36-L352 ~ $3000
SawStop Professional cabinet saw ~ $3000

That's the low end Sawstop. The original is about $4500/

His whole example was done to lie. It's his MO.



Well Larry's comments are incorrect too. The $3K SawStop is the
Professional Cabinet saw with 52" fence and 3hp motor, not the
Contractors saw. And the Industrial, original, in the common set up is
$4K. less with a shorter than 52" fence.

On 3/10/2014 12:16 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 3/10/2014 12:27 AM, Leon wrote:
On 3/9/2014 9:20 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 3/9/2014 8:52 PM, Bill wrote:

Have you actually asked a store that sells SawStop how the SS
units sell compared to the other brands?

My local Woodcraft store says nobody buys anything else. I don't
believe them.


They don't even list Delta on their website, but lots of SawStop.


Retail 101, you sell and stock to meet demand.

Possibly another economic factor too. Lawyers tend to drag everyone
into the suits that has loose change in their pockets. "Woodcraft
knowingly sold this XYZ brand to my client knowing he could cut his
penis off if he jumped on top of the saw"

I don't buy that one. I admit that I do not follow this stuff, but it seems
to me that the lawsuits that have been filed and won were against the
manufacturer and not against the retailers. It seems to me that retailers
are not being held accountable in the manner that you suggest.



While that is logical, only going after the manufacturer and not the
retailer, even back in the 80's an AC/Delco wholesaler, that I was the
GM for, had liability insurance in case there was a law suite from a
failed part that we sold to a dealer. We installed nothing. Especially
today a lawyer is going to go after who ever he can to win a case.

Lee Michaels wrote:


"Bill" wrote

They eventually moved most of the other saws out of the place. My
thinking is that their commissions and markups are much higher on
SawStop. They act in a way which is consistent with that. I don't
see them doing any other sort of table saw demonstrations on Saturday
morning! I don't begrudge them anything, I'm sure it's a tough
business to maintain. I could do with out the "selling by fear"
sales tactic.

I can't speak for woodcraft. They are a bit pricy, but do sell some
quality products. And any retail store that sells to a demographic
that is up the ladder from hobbyists or home repair guys wants to
project an image. With products to match that image.

That is interesting. I guess I'm not really in their demographic. I'm
not presently in the market for any Festool products or any new $300
hand planes. The only reason I go more than once of year is because of a
carving group that meets there. I do take an interst in the way that
all people who market or sell to me, do it. For instance, the
observation you made above adds to my insight. When I wrote, I was not
thinking of them projecting an image. My guess was that they were
putting some of those products there to make their other prices appear
lower (that's a common tactic too). Generally, given the opportunity
to pay to project an image myself, I go the other way. Others get
caught up in labels, etc. We weren't all born with a silver spoon...

Bill

Leon wrote:
On 3/10/2014 12:16 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 3/10/2014 12:27 AM, Leon wrote:
On 3/9/2014 9:20 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 3/9/2014 8:52 PM, Bill wrote:

Have you actually asked a store that sells SawStop how the SS
units sell compared to the other brands?

My local Woodcraft store says nobody buys anything else. I don't
believe them.


They don't even list Delta on their website, but lots of SawStop.


Retail 101, you sell and stock to meet demand.

Possibly another economic factor too. Lawyers tend to drag everyone
into the suits that has loose change in their pockets. "Woodcraft
knowingly sold this XYZ brand to my client knowing he could cut his
penis off if he jumped on top of the saw"

I don't buy that one. I admit that I do not follow this stuff, but
it seems to me that the lawsuits that have been filed and won were
against the manufacturer and not against the retailers. It seems to
me that retailers are not being held accountable in the manner that
you suggest.


While that is logical, only going after the manufacturer and not the
retailer, even back in the 80's an AC/Delco wholesaler, that I was the
GM for, had liability insurance in case there was a law suite from a
failed part that we sold to a dealer. We installed nothing. Especially
today a lawyer is going to go after who ever he can to win
a case.

I do understand that but my only point was that the cases to date have not
reflected the retailer being sued.

--

-Mike-

Mike Marlow wrote:
Leon wrote:
On 3/10/2014 12:16 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 3/10/2014 12:27 AM, Leon wrote:
On 3/9/2014 9:20 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 3/9/2014 8:52 PM, Bill wrote:

Have you actually asked a store that sells SawStop how the SS
units sell compared to the other brands?
My local Woodcraft store says nobody buys anything else. I don't
believe them.

They don't even list Delta on their website, but lots of SawStop.

Retail 101, you sell and stock to meet demand.
Possibly another economic factor too. Lawyers tend to drag everyone
into the suits that has loose change in their pockets. "Woodcraft
knowingly sold this XYZ brand to my client knowing he could cut his
penis off if he jumped on top of the saw"
I don't buy that one. I admit that I do not follow this stuff, but
it seems to me that the lawsuits that have been filed and won were
against the manufacturer and not against the retailers. It seems to
me that retailers are not being held accountable in the manner that
you suggest.

While that is logical, only going after the manufacturer and not the
retailer, even back in the 80's an AC/Delco wholesaler, that I was the
GM for, had liability insurance in case there was a law suite from a
failed part that we sold to a dealer. We installed nothing. Especially
today a lawyer is going to go after who ever he can to win
a case.
I do understand that but my only point was that the cases to date have not
reflected the retailer being sued.

It is like suing Speedway (or equivalent service station) for selling
cigarettes.

On 3/10/2014 2:14 PM, Bill wrote:
Mike Marlow wrote:
Leon wrote:
On 3/10/2014 12:16 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 3/10/2014 12:27 AM, Leon wrote:
On 3/9/2014 9:20 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 3/9/2014 8:52 PM, Bill wrote:

Have you actually asked a store that sells SawStop how the SS
units sell compared to the other brands?
My local Woodcraft store says nobody buys anything else. I don't
believe them.

They don't even list Delta on their website, but lots of SawStop.

Retail 101, you sell and stock to meet demand.
Possibly another economic factor too. Lawyers tend to drag everyone
into the suits that has loose change in their pockets. "Woodcraft
knowingly sold this XYZ brand to my client knowing he could cut his
penis off if he jumped on top of the saw"
I don't buy that one. I admit that I do not follow this stuff, but
it seems to me that the lawsuits that have been filed and won were
against the manufacturer and not against the retailers. It seems to
me that retailers are not being held accountable in the manner that
you suggest.

While that is logical, only going after the manufacturer and not the
retailer, even back in the 80's an AC/Delco wholesaler, that I was the
GM for, had liability insurance in case there was a law suite from a
failed part that we sold to a dealer. We installed nothing. Especially
today a lawyer is going to go after who ever he can to win
a case.
I do understand that but my only point was that the cases to date have
not
reflected the retailer being sued.

It is like suing Speedway (or equivalent service station) for selling
cigarettes.




Yes it is BUT many bars have been held liable for over serving customers
that were involved in an accident. The bar did not make the spirits and
they did not make the customer drink the drink....

In this day and age, you never know who is coming after you.

Leon wrote:


Yes it is BUT many bars have been held liable for over serving
customers that were involved in an accident. The bar did not make
the spirits and they did not make the customer drink the drink....


Yes, but that's quite a bit different.
--

-Mike-

Mike Marlow wrote:
Leon wrote:

Yes it is BUT many bars have been held liable for over serving
customers that were involved in an accident. The bar did not make
the spirits and they did not make the customer drink the drink....

Yes, but that's quite a bit different.

I agree. I doubt that even Leon even believes it at this point.

On 3/10/2014 5:10 PM, Bill wrote:
Mike Marlow wrote:
Leon wrote:

Yes it is BUT many bars have been held liable for over serving
customers that were involved in an accident. The bar did not make
the spirits and they did not make the customer drink the drink....

Yes, but that's quite a bit different.

I agree. I doubt that even Leon even believes it at this point.

What I believe and what I think is right are two different things.

I believe that it is not beyond a possibility that if you are in any way
involved or associated with any form of delivery of a product that may
at any time cause harm to the end user that an ambulance chaser has you
on his radar.

Is that right? no. IMHO only the manufacturer of a defective product
should be held liable. No one in between.