Elrond Hubbard wrote:
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
:

This comment will undoubtedly loose the usual ****storm of debate
on a subject that has already been flogged to death. I am strongly
of the opinion that having a saw with an idiot-proof feature allows
you to be more of an idiot.

Said by the idiot. I am as entitled to voice my opinion as any one
here but insinuating that someone becomes more of an idiot because
his or her beliefs don't align with yours speaks volumes about you.

If you can afford the saw it is a no brainier.

Didn't call anyone an idiot, nor did I suggest that you weren't
entitled to the opinion which you have expressed at least ten
thousand times on this forum. Why so defensive?




Let me quote you here.

I am strongly of the opinion that having a saw with an
idiot-proof
feature allows you to be more of an idiot.

To be able to be more of an idiot you first have to be an idiot. If
you are not an idiot at all you cannot be more of one.


We're all idiots to some degree, Leon. For instance, some people can't
tell the difference between a huge generalization and a personal attack.


So while you did not directly name names you did indicate that "having
a saw with an idiot-proof feature" allows a you to be more of an
idiot.

You accomplished what you set out to do, offend any one recommending,
considering, or using a SawStop.


All I set out to do was offer my opinion. You disagree with my opinion.
And you go on to make your argument for the ten-thousand and one-th
time.


Further you stated,

For the last ten years I've used a table saw daily, and for
thirty
or so years prior to that, I'd used one at least a few of times a
week. A fewyouthful misadventures with kickback taught me respect. I'm
not foolhardy enough to say I can't get hurt again, but if I do, it
won't be because I have a false sense of security from having a saw
that makes a workshop safe for hot dogs.


Now certainly you understand that with all of your claimed vast years
of extensive and continuous use of a TS that a beginner or a person
clearly not as smart as you might benefit from a safer saw, one that
can prevent a serious cut should that person with much much much less
experience than you have a slip in judgement or do something foolish.

Which is why all entry-level table saws are equipped with the Saw Stop,
right? Because all first-time buyers are willing and able to shell out
the extra $$$ that the hot-dog nicking safety device costs.

No?

Please elaborate.


You admit that with your youthful adventures with kickback, and since
you mentioned adventures as plural, one would deduct that either you
are a slow learner or that there actually are numerous possibilities
of being hurt on a TS. AAMOF there is not a publication that can
cover every possible instance of what can prevent an accident. Only
experience helps to fill in the gaps.

And to sum up your way of thinking, If you get hurt using a TS, that
is less safe to use, it is your own fault.



Absolutely. Personal responsibility is a wonderful thing. Can't
recommend it enough. Should be taught in school, even.



Never mind the fact that
if you were using a safer saw you might not get hurt. Have you ever
considered that if you cut you finger or hand it is your fault because
you were not using a SawStop?



Huh??? Of course it would be my fault. See above personal
responsibility.



And with your comment below, you clearly have not thought out what
your words really mean.

I'm not foolhardy enough to say I can't get hurt again, but if I
do, it won't be because I have a false sense of security from having a
saw that makes a workshop safe for hot dogs.


If you do get hurt again, it will absolutely be because you have a
false sense of security. I'm not calling you stupid but do you think
that you would actually do something purposely wrong? If you get hurt
again is will because you either purposely did something wrong or
because you do not have enough knowledge/experience to know that the
operation you are performing can harm you. Believe me, if you think
that you know all of the ways to prevent being harmed on the TS you
are the prime target of SawStop. If you know you don't know every way
of being harmed on a TS you are also a prime target of SawStop.


As I said earlier, I'm not enough of a fool to think that I can't get
hurt by a table saw. I remind myself EVERY TIME I turn the thing on. I'm
also not enough of a fool to think that the overpriced safety device you
defend so rabidly will prevent anything other than the type of accident
caused by carelessness, and is not designed to prevent any of the other
kinds of harm the thing can throw my way if I use it incorrectly.

Ok Larry, you and all of your aliases fooled a few of us for a bit.

On Sat, 08 Mar 2014 00:17:50 -0500, wrote:

On 08 Mar 2014 02:58:43 GMT, Tyrone Tiews wrote:
enough to say I can't get hurt again, but if I do, it won't be because I
have a false sense of security from having a saw that makes a workshop safe
for hot dogs.

Do you wear a seatbelt when you're driving Tyrone?

Not Tyrone, but... Sure, but not if I had to pay twice as much for
the car with one.

Do you have a smoke detector or carbon monoxide detector in your home Tyrone?

Yes. No. Neither, if I had to pay twice as much for the house.

The SawStop
is a safety device just like anything else.

Not like everything else. The difference is the cost (and the
patents). Let's do this again after the patents run out.

If all these things are
likely to give you a false sense of security then you've got a
serious problem.

You can deny human nature all you want but it doesn't change it.

On Sun, 09 Mar 2014 06:23:45 -0700, jo4hn
Leon, Jeff,
Time to step back and take a deep breath. In fact most of the
contributors to this thread should do so. When reasoned discourse and
emotional involvement meet each other, the "reasoned" part seems to fade.

But then, what fun would there be?

On Sun, 09 Mar 2014 11:06:49 -0400, wrote:
Not like everything else. The difference is the cost (and the
patents). Let's do this again after the patents run out.

I'm wondering how many less than ten fingered woodworking people would
agree with you?

On Sun, 09 Mar 2014 11:19:11 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 09 Mar 2014 11:06:49 -0400, wrote:
Not like everything else. The difference is the cost (and the
patents). Let's do this again after the patents run out.

I'm wondering how many less than ten fingered woodworking people would
agree with you?

Completely irrelevant. A similar silly-statement would be "How many
people who had limbs lost in car accidents, prefer they stayed home
that day?". Life *is* about risk/reward, no matter how much the
nanny-state tries to tell you otherwise.

There is no such thing as "safe". The only question is how much are
you willing to pay for each bit of "safety". When I bought my saw, I
looked at a SawStop but decided that the Unisaw would look nice in the
garage (nicer than the Griz). A picture of a SawStop just wouldn't
cut it.

Do you have a SawStop?

On Sun, 09 Mar 2014 11:35:42 -0400, wrote:
Do you have a SawStop?

I don't even have a workshop. All of my woodworking is limited to the
workbench in my living room. But, if I did have a workshop, I'd
seriously consider a SawStop or a sliding table panel saw. That being
said, my needs are different than the average woodworker.

On 3/9/2014 9:19 AM, wrote:
On Sun, 09 Mar 2014 11:06:49 -0400, wrote:
Not like everything else. The difference is the cost (and the
patents). Let's do this again after the patents run out.

I'm wondering how many less than ten fingered woodworking people would
agree with you?

How many less than ten fingered woodworking people are there?

( by the way, your statement about wondering doesn't require a question
mark) ;-)

On 3/9/2014 10:35 AM, wrote:

There is no such thing as "safe". The only question is how much are
you willing to pay for each bit of "safety".

Especially when paying in freedoms:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phBEhZK5pvY


--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On Sun, 09 Mar 2014 10:11:25 -0600, Max wrote:
How many less than ten fingered woodworking people are there?
( by the way, your statement about wondering doesn't require a question

I know of three people here who have previously self identified with a
tablesaw injury that could have been prevented by a SawStop if it had
existed at the time of the injury. I'm not going to name them, but
perhaps some will name themselves.

On Sun, 09 Mar 2014 12:10:24 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 09 Mar 2014 11:35:42 -0400, wrote:
Do you have a SawStop?

I don't even have a workshop. All of my woodworking is limited to the
workbench in my living room. But, if I did have a workshop, I'd
seriously consider a SawStop or a sliding table panel saw. That being
said, my needs are different than the average woodworker.

So you admit that it's not all that cut-and-dried; there *is* a
decision to be made.

On Sun, 09 Mar 2014 12:17:34 -0400, wrote:
I don't even have a workshop. All of my woodworking is limited to the
workbench in my living room. But, if I did have a workshop, I'd
seriously consider a SawStop or a sliding table panel saw. That being
said, my needs are different than the average woodworker.

So you admit that it's not all that cut-and-dried; there *is* a
decision to be made.

There's always a decision to be made. And, you've chosen to ignore my
statement that my situation when using a tablesaw is different than
most.

I do however question your comparison ridiculous comparisons as to
costs.

Sure, but not if I had to pay twice as much for the car with one.
Yes. No. Neither, if I had to pay twice as much for the house.

The SawStop mechanism DOES NOT double the price of the saw. It doesn't
even come close. The SawStop tablesaw itself is a well made, very
decent operating tablesaw with top notch fit and finish.

There's a number of regular $3000 tablesaws on the market and the
SawStop is as good if not better than all of them.

On Sun, 09 Mar 2014 12:28:35 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 09 Mar 2014 12:17:34 -0400, wrote:
I don't even have a workshop. All of my woodworking is limited to the
workbench in my living room. But, if I did have a workshop, I'd
seriously consider a SawStop or a sliding table panel saw. That being
said, my needs are different than the average woodworker.

So you admit that it's not all that cut-and-dried; there *is* a
decision to be made.

There's always a decision to be made. And, you've chosen to ignore my
statement that my situation when using a tablesaw is different than
most.

Since you've not made that decision and have just admitted that
perhaps it's not "stupid" to buy a non-stop saw, you really have no
argument.

I do however question your comparison ridiculous comparisons as to
costs.

Fact, Jack. That's *exactly* the decision I was confronted with.
$1600 for the Unisaw - $3500 for the "equivalent" SawStop. The $1600
was do-able (up from the $1400 for the budgeted Griz). $3500 would
have had me laughed out of the "capital acquisition" meeting.

Sure, but not if I had to pay twice as much for the car with one.
Yes. No. Neither, if I had to pay twice as much for the house.

The SawStop mechanism DOES NOT double the price of the saw. It doesn't
even come close. The SawStop tablesaw itself is a well made, very
decent operating tablesaw with top notch fit and finish.

It *DID*. That's the point.

There's a number of regular $3000 tablesaws on the market and the
SawStop is as good if not better than all of them.

Oh, good grief! When *you* make the decision with *your* money, come
back and we'll talk.

On Sun, 09 Mar 2014 12:42:21 -0400, wrote:
Fact, Jack. That's *exactly* the decision I was confronted with.
$1600 for the Unisaw - $3500 for the "equivalent" SawStop. The $1600
was do-able (up from the $1400 for the budgeted Griz). $3500 would
have had me laughed out of the "capital acquisition" meeting.

As usual, your fact are full of holes.

Powermatic PM2000 ~ $3000
Delta 36-L352 ~ $3000
SawStop Professional cabinet saw ~ $3000

http://www.consumersearch.com/table-...s/cabinet-saws

The REAL TRUTH is that MOST SawStop naysayers like you are too busy
letting your emotions overrule your common sense. You hate GASS'
business tactics so much that you'll consider any excuse to exclude a
SawStop from your purchasing condition.

On Sun, 09 Mar 2014 13:03:10 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 09 Mar 2014 12:42:21 -0400, wrote:
Fact, Jack. That's *exactly* the decision I was confronted with.
$1600 for the Unisaw - $3500 for the "equivalent" SawStop. The $1600
was do-able (up from the $1400 for the budgeted Griz). $3500 would
have had me laughed out of the "capital acquisition" meeting.

As usual, your fact are full of holes.

Now you're calling me a liar. Figures.

Powermatic PM2000 ~ $3000
Delta 36-L352 ~ $3000
SawStop Professional cabinet saw ~ $3000

http://www.consumersearch.com/table-...s/cabinet-saws

I'm telling you WHAT MY DECISION WAS. GOT IT?

The REAL TRUTH is that MOST SawStop naysayers like you are too busy
letting your emotions overrule your common sense. You hate GASS'
business tactics so much that you'll consider any excuse to exclude a
SawStop from your purchasing condition.

Bull****. Like most suck-ups, you're talking out both sides of your
mouth. You admit that price is an issue and that there is a decision
to be made, yet you denigrate those who don't agree with a choice
you've NEVER MADE and probably never will.

I don't care that some love SawStop. Sobeit. Their decision.
However, when some know-nothing jumps into the fray, talking out both
sided of his mouth, it's really funny.

On 3/9/2014 10:35 AM, wrote:
On Sun, 09 Mar 2014 11:19:11 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 09 Mar 2014 11:06:49 -0400, wrote:
Not like everything else. The difference is the cost (and the
patents). Let's do this again after the patents run out.

I'm wondering how many less than ten fingered woodworking people would
agree with you?

Completely irrelevant. A similar silly-statement would be "How many
people who had limbs lost in car accidents, prefer they stayed home
that day?". Life *is* about risk/reward, no matter how much the
nanny-state tries to tell you otherwise.

There is no such thing as "safe". The only question is how much are
you willing to pay for each bit of "safety". When I bought my saw, I
looked at a SawStop but decided that the Unisaw would look nice in the
garage (nicer than the Griz). A picture of a SawStop just wouldn't
cut it.

Do you have a SawStop?




FWIW I had the same attitude and comments here as those that have not
yet benefited from the SawStop or see the benefit of spending and extra
thousand on a saw, 25 years ago.

You cut your self it is your own damn fault and you did something wrong.
I'll be careful and practice every rule that I have read or have been
taught.


Then one day I cut half my thumb off, about 15 years later SawStop is on
the horizon. Today I own a SawStop. Wow what did I do wrong???
Hummmmmm obviously I did something wrong... and it took me about one
year to almost cut my thumb off again before I realized what had
actually happened. No set of safety rules "directly" addressed what
went wrong. I can assure you that safety rules only cover the basics
and it is not unusual to be in a situation that is not specifically
addressed in the "rules".

Unfortunately one never really understands every conceivable way that
you can be injured by the TS, that is until you have an unfortunate
accident, IF you have an accident. No one ever tries to have an
accident but no one lives a charmed life, one with out accidents.

It is all a matter of choice of how safe you want your equipment to be
and how much you value your safety.

All things considered, and knowing what I do about why accidents are
called accidents, I choose my safety over principal.

So for anyone that has not yet been convinced that a SawStop is a smart
investment or an investment worth saving up for, I totally understand, I
have been in your shoes.


And FWIW if any one believes that you will get a false sense of security
by using a SawStop TS I can assure you that I have not. There is
something about a blade spinning at 100 MPH that is very real and still
very intimidating.

Why do I preach the SawStop? I am not the only one that knows that
accidents happen and myself and others like me would rather pay extra to
help prevent another accident from happening. I really felt pretty
stupid after cutting half my thumb off. I don't want to feel that way
again if there is a way to add the extra margin of safety.

Y'all be careful!

On 3/9/2014 12:18 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 09 Mar 2014 13:03:10 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 09 Mar 2014 12:42:21 -0400, wrote:
Fact, Jack. That's *exactly* the decision I was confronted with.
$1600 for the Unisaw - $3500 for the "equivalent" SawStop. The $1600
was do-able (up from the $1400 for the budgeted Griz). $3500 would
have had me laughed out of the "capital acquisition" meeting.

As usual, your fact are full of holes.

Now you're calling me a liar. Figures.

Powermatic PM2000 ~ $3000
Delta 36-L352 ~ $3000
SawStop Professional cabinet saw ~ $3000

http://www.consumersearch.com/table-...s/cabinet-saws

I'm telling you WHAT MY DECISION WAS. GOT IT?

The REAL TRUTH is that MOST SawStop naysayers like you are too busy
letting your emotions overrule your common sense. You hate GASS'
business tactics so much that you'll consider any excuse to exclude a
SawStop from your purchasing condition.

Bull****. Like most suck-ups, you're talking out both sides of your
mouth. You admit that price is an issue and that there is a decision
to be made, yet you denigrate those who don't agree with a choice
you've NEVER MADE and probably never will.

I don't care that some love SawStop. Sobeit. Their decision.
However, when some know-nothing jumps into the fray, talking out both
sided of his mouth, it's really funny.



It does speak volumes to actually have stepped up and bought the saw. I
did.

Every one is entitled to their opinion with out being attacked and or
being compared to an idiot or the possibility of being more of an idiot.

Experience trumps, "what he said" or going with the popular consensus,
every time.

On 3/9/2014 11:13 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 3/9/2014 10:35 AM, wrote:

There is no such thing as "safe". The only question is how much are
you willing to pay for each bit of "safety".

Especially when paying in freedoms:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phBEhZK5pvY




Buying yourself a gun for protection against the possibility of being
attacked or robbed is costly. But NOT nearly as costly as losing your
right to own that type of protection.

Out lawing guns will only take protection away from the law biding
citizens. Criminals, the people we need guns to protect ourselves from,
will be the only ones that will still have guns if we lose our rights to
own guns.

Some people know karate and don't need guns to begin with. These people
know that the gun manufacturers are only out to make guns for profit and
really don't care about your safety.

On 3/9/2014 10:28 AM, wrote:

some snip...but..

The SawStop mechanism DOES NOT double the price of the saw. It doesn't
even come close. The SawStop tablesaw itself is a well made, very
decent operating tablesaw with top notch fit and finish.

There's a number of regular $3000 tablesaws on the market and the
SawStop is as good if not better than all of them.


And that's a consensus or just an opinion. ;-)

On 3/9/2014 10:17 AM, wrote:
On Sun, 09 Mar 2014 10:11:25 -0600, Max wrote:
How many less than ten fingered woodworking people are there?
( by the way, your statement about wondering doesn't require a question

I know of three people here who have previously self identified with a
tablesaw injury that could have been prevented by a SawStop if it had
existed at the time of the injury. I'm not going to name them, but
perhaps some will name themselves.


Not to pick nits but in your initial "wonder" you didn't qualify your
comment by limiting your missing fingers to "people here".
What I'm alluding to is the number of woodworkers who have cut off, or
nearly so, a finger when using a table saw. The statistic "might" be a
persuasive number when selling a potential finger saver device.
I'm not attempting to denigrate the SawStop. What I am suggesting is
that it is not only a safety decision but an economic one.

SawStop "contractor" saw: $1599.

Grizzly Hybrid table saw: http://www.grizzly.com/products/G0715P $894.
delivered.

On 3/9/2014 2:13 PM, Max wrote:
On 3/9/2014 10:28 AM, wrote:

some snip...but..

The SawStop mechanism DOES NOT double the price of the saw. It doesn't
even come close. The SawStop tablesaw itself is a well made, very
decent operating tablesaw with top notch fit and finish.

There's a number of regular $3000 tablesaws on the market and the
SawStop is as good if not better than all of them.


And that's a consensus or just an opinion. ;-)



It is a consensus. Most all TS reports, with the SawStop involved,
most always place the SawStop as a top quality machine.


Simply the arbor/trunnion assembly is quite HD on all models when
compared to the competition.

On 3/9/2014 5:26 PM, Leon wrote:


It is a consensus. Most all TS reports, with the SawStop involved,
most always place the SawStop as a top quality machine.


Simply the arbor/trunnion assembly is quite HD on all models when
compared to the competition.

I'm part of the consensus.
I don't envision myself ever getting a new tablesaw, but if I did, it
would be SawStop. Well made tool and the safety is a bonus.

That said, if I ever opened a hot dog cart, I'd cut them with a knife as
the SawStop would be too time consuming for that operation.

On Sun, 09 Mar 2014 13:31:05 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 3/9/2014 12:18 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 09 Mar 2014 13:03:10 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 09 Mar 2014 12:42:21 -0400, wrote:
Fact, Jack. That's *exactly* the decision I was confronted with.
$1600 for the Unisaw - $3500 for the "equivalent" SawStop. The $1600
was do-able (up from the $1400 for the budgeted Griz). $3500 would
have had me laughed out of the "capital acquisition" meeting.

As usual, your fact are full of holes.

Now you're calling me a liar. Figures.

Powermatic PM2000 ~ $3000
Delta 36-L352 ~ $3000
SawStop Professional cabinet saw ~ $3000

http://www.consumersearch.com/table-...s/cabinet-saws

I'm telling you WHAT MY DECISION WAS. GOT IT?

The REAL TRUTH is that MOST SawStop naysayers like you are too busy
letting your emotions overrule your common sense. You hate GASS'
business tactics so much that you'll consider any excuse to exclude a
SawStop from your purchasing condition.

Bull****. Like most suck-ups, you're talking out both sides of your
mouth. You admit that price is an issue and that there is a decision
to be made, yet you denigrate those who don't agree with a choice
you've NEVER MADE and probably never will.

I don't care that some love SawStop. Sobeit. Their decision.
However, when some know-nothing jumps into the fray, talking out both
sided of his mouth, it's really funny.



It does speak volumes to actually have stepped up and bought the saw. I
did.

Yes, it means you weighed the choices and decided that it was worth
it. I'm perfectly fine with that, as long as that choice exists.

Every one is entitled to their opinion with out being attacked and or
being compared to an idiot or the possibility of being more of an idiot.

Well, that's really at the bottom of my point. Choice is a good
thing.

Experience trumps, "what he said" or going with the popular consensus,
every time.

AGW is pretty popular but it doesn't make it right. Socialism is
pretty popular, right now, too.

On Sun, 09 Mar 2014 13:46:49 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 3/9/2014 11:13 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 3/9/2014 10:35 AM, wrote:

There is no such thing as "safe". The only question is how much are
you willing to pay for each bit of "safety".

Especially when paying in freedoms:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phBEhZK5pvY




Buying yourself a gun for protection against the possibility of being
attacked or robbed is costly. But NOT nearly as costly as losing your
right to own that type of protection.

No one is asking you to loose your arm to buy a different brand.

Out lawing guns will only take protection away from the law biding
citizens. Criminals, the people we need guns to protect ourselves from,
will be the only ones that will still have guns if we lose our rights to
own guns.

Forcing SawStop on everyone will also take table saws away from a
*lot* of people.

Some people know karate and don't need guns to begin with. These people
know that the gun manufacturers are only out to make guns for profit and
really don't care about your safety.

Nonsense. Karate is no replacement for a gun, no matter what Bruce
Lee movies show. I suppose all gun manufacturers all delete safeties
from their guns because they want them to be dangerous? Umm, get
real!

On Sun, 09 Mar 2014 13:14:50 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 3/9/2014 10:35 AM, wrote:
On Sun, 09 Mar 2014 11:19:11 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 09 Mar 2014 11:06:49 -0400, wrote:
Not like everything else. The difference is the cost (and the
patents). Let's do this again after the patents run out.

I'm wondering how many less than ten fingered woodworking people would
agree with you?

Completely irrelevant. A similar silly-statement would be "How many
people who had limbs lost in car accidents, prefer they stayed home
that day?". Life *is* about risk/reward, no matter how much the
nanny-state tries to tell you otherwise.

There is no such thing as "safe". The only question is how much are
you willing to pay for each bit of "safety". When I bought my saw, I
looked at a SawStop but decided that the Unisaw would look nice in the
garage (nicer than the Griz). A picture of a SawStop just wouldn't
cut it.

Do you have a SawStop?




FWIW I had the same attitude and comments here as those that have not
yet benefited from the SawStop or see the benefit of spending and extra
thousand on a saw, 25 years ago.

Completely irrelevant. Just because you bought into SawStop after 25
years, doesn't mean it's the right choice for everyone else. Saying
so is pure, unadulterated, snobbery.

You cut your self it is your own damn fault and you did something wrong.
I'll be careful and practice every rule that I have read or have been
taught.

Of course.

Then one day I cut half my thumb off, about 15 years later SawStop is on
the horizon. Today I own a SawStop. Wow what did I do wrong???
Hummmmmm obviously I did something wrong... and it took me about one
year to almost cut my thumb off again before I realized what had
actually happened. No set of safety rules "directly" addressed what
went wrong. I can assure you that safety rules only cover the basics
and it is not unusual to be in a situation that is not specifically
addressed in the "rules".

No set of "rules" keeps killers from killing, either. They do help (a
lot). Not all accidents are handled by SawStop, either. Dangerous
tools require care.

Unfortunately one never really understands every conceivable way that
you can be injured by the TS, that is until you have an unfortunate
accident, IF you have an accident. No one ever tries to have an
accident but no one lives a charmed life, one with out accidents.

Irrelevant. Thousands of people never do have such an accident.

It is all a matter of choice of how safe you want your equipment to be
and how much you value your safety.

....and choices you have. If I had a couple of extra thousand dollars,
at the time, I *might* have chosen SawStop, too. ...or a bandsaw. 'or
a Festool. ;-)

All things considered, and knowing what I do about why accidents are
called accidents, I choose my safety over principal.

SawStop only "fixes" one of the very many accidents that are lurking
for all of us. If I used my tools as a business, my choices would be
very different.

So for anyone that has not yet been convinced that a SawStop is a smart
investment or an investment worth saving up for, I totally understand, I
have been in your shoes.

That's really my point. Choice is good. In a decade, when the Gass
patents run out, I may trade.

And FWIW if any one believes that you will get a false sense of security
by using a SawStop TS I can assure you that I have not. There is
something about a blade spinning at 100 MPH that is very real and still
very intimidating.

Why do I preach the SawStop? I am not the only one that knows that
accidents happen and myself and others like me would rather pay extra to
help prevent another accident from happening. I really felt pretty
stupid after cutting half my thumb off. I don't want to feel that way
again if there is a way to add the extra margin of safety.

Y'all be careful!

No doubt!

On 3/9/2014 5:22 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 09 Mar 2014 13:14:50 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 3/9/2014 10:35 AM, wrote:
On Sun, 09 Mar 2014 11:19:11 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 09 Mar 2014 11:06:49 -0400, wrote:
Not like everything else. The difference is the cost (and the
patents). Let's do this again after the patents run out.

I'm wondering how many less than ten fingered woodworking people would
agree with you?

Completely irrelevant. A similar silly-statement would be "How many
people who had limbs lost in car accidents, prefer they stayed home
that day?". Life *is* about risk/reward, no matter how much the
nanny-state tries to tell you otherwise.

There is no such thing as "safe". The only question is how much are
you willing to pay for each bit of "safety". When I bought my saw, I
looked at a SawStop but decided that the Unisaw would look nice in the
garage (nicer than the Griz). A picture of a SawStop just wouldn't
cut it.

Do you have a SawStop?




FWIW I had the same attitude and comments here as those that have not
yet benefited from the SawStop or see the benefit of spending and extra
thousand on a saw, 25 years ago.

Completely irrelevant. Just because you bought into SawStop after 25
years, doesn't mean it's the right choice for everyone else. Saying
so is pure, unadulterated, snobbery.

No,no,no, I am not saying that every one should buy the SawStop so much
as I have a perspective from both sides and in my instance it was the
right choice for me. As far as those that have not benefited, I am
referring to those that have used a SawStop and caused it to lock up the
blade to prevent a cut. I do believe that if you were to use one and
actually have an accident that causes the brake to engage and you don't
end up at the ER you probably would agree that the SawStop is really
worth a bit more consideration.



You cut your self it is your own damn fault and you did something wrong.
I'll be careful and practice every rule that I have read or have been
taught.

Of course.

Then one day I cut half my thumb off, about 15 years later SawStop is on
the horizon. Today I own a SawStop. Wow what did I do wrong???
Hummmmmm obviously I did something wrong... and it took me about one
year to almost cut my thumb off again before I realized what had
actually happened. No set of safety rules "directly" addressed what
went wrong. I can assure you that safety rules only cover the basics
and it is not unusual to be in a situation that is not specifically
addressed in the "rules".

No set of "rules" keeps killers from killing, either. They do help (a
lot). Not all accidents are handled by SawStop, either. Dangerous
tools require care.

Exactly however the SawStop does help to prevent severing a body part.


Unfortunately one never really understands every conceivable way that
you can be injured by the TS, that is until you have an unfortunate
accident, IF you have an accident. No one ever tries to have an
accident but no one lives a charmed life, one with out accidents.

Irrelevant. Thousands of people never do have such an accident.

I am talking any kind of accident, tripping and falling, paper cut, etc.
We all know exactly how to prevent any of these accidents but they
still happen. We become complacent or something out of our control
happens. The same can happen with the TS.


It is all a matter of choice of how safe you want your equipment to be
and how much you value your safety.

...and choices you have. If I had a couple of extra thousand dollars,
at the time, I *might* have chosen SawStop, too. ...or a bandsaw. 'or
a Festool. ;-)

All things considered, and knowing what I do about why accidents are
called accidents, I choose my safety over principal.

SawStop only "fixes" one of the very many accidents that are lurking
for all of us. If I used my tools as a business, my choices would be
very different.

This is very true.



So for anyone that has not yet been convinced that a SawStop is a smart
investment or an investment worth saving up for, I totally understand, I
have been in your shoes.

That's really my point. Choice is good. In a decade, when the Gass
patents run out, I may trade.

So because you mentioned Gass is this more of an emotional decision
given many don't care for the way he operates? Or do you honestly
believe that with patent depletion that competition will drive the
prices down? Have you considered what inflation will do to the pricing?

For example and these are just close comparisons, about 10-12 years ago
the PM2000 with 50" fence and 3hp motor was approximately $2000. Today
Woodcraft offers it for $3364 before the current 15% sale discount.
in 2000 a similar Jet was $1300 today, $2449 before the 15% sale
discount. You can probably expect for prices to do the same in the
next 10 years and that is going to put those particular TS's in excess
of the price of an industrial SawStop today, $3999. For a more
comparable Professional SawStop, $2999. today. And yes, the SawStop
does compare in quality to the saws mentioned. It is not a budget built
machine.

Just something to consider. Certainly the SawStop will be more
expensive later on too but there is no guarantee that the competition
will offer some type of similar safety feature then either, should you
find that you want a saw with that feature. Something to remember, all
of those competitors had the opportunity to have the SawStop technology
before SawStop considered building their own saw to compete. They did
not want it then, they may not want it later. Anyway none of the above
is certain to happen but by the same token is not a stretch of the
imagination either.

And if yu simply don't want to send any pennies Gass's way that is OK
too. ;~)

On 3/9/2014 5:05 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 09 Mar 2014 13:31:05 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 3/9/2014 12:18 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 09 Mar 2014 13:03:10 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 09 Mar 2014 12:42:21 -0400, wrote:
Fact, Jack. That's *exactly* the decision I was confronted with.
$1600 for the Unisaw - $3500 for the "equivalent" SawStop. The $1600
was do-able (up from the $1400 for the budgeted Griz). $3500 would
have had me laughed out of the "capital acquisition" meeting.

As usual, your fact are full of holes.

Now you're calling me a liar. Figures.

Powermatic PM2000 ~ $3000
Delta 36-L352 ~ $3000
SawStop Professional cabinet saw ~ $3000

http://www.consumersearch.com/table-...s/cabinet-saws

I'm telling you WHAT MY DECISION WAS. GOT IT?

The REAL TRUTH is that MOST SawStop naysayers like you are too busy
letting your emotions overrule your common sense. You hate GASS'
business tactics so much that you'll consider any excuse to exclude a
SawStop from your purchasing condition.

Bull****. Like most suck-ups, you're talking out both sides of your
mouth. You admit that price is an issue and that there is a decision
to be made, yet you denigrate those who don't agree with a choice
you've NEVER MADE and probably never will.

I don't care that some love SawStop. Sobeit. Their decision.
However, when some know-nothing jumps into the fray, talking out both
sided of his mouth, it's really funny.



It does speak volumes to actually have stepped up and bought the saw. I
did.

Yes, it means you weighed the choices and decided that it was worth
it. I'm perfectly fine with that, as long as that choice exists.

Every one is entitled to their opinion with out being attacked and or
being compared to an idiot or the possibility of being more of an idiot.

Well, that's really at the bottom of my point. Choice is a good
thing.

Experience trumps, "what he said" or going with the popular consensus,
every time.

AGW is pretty popular but it doesn't make it right. Socialism is
pretty popular, right now, too.



I think where you and I may be at odds on this discussion is that you
might think that "I" think the SawStop should be in every ones shop. I
don't believe that to the extent that everyone must have one in their
shop. I think it would be good if the competition would have partnered
with SawStop to begin with and then every one could have had the choice
of having the technology "or not" in the brands of their choice.

I prefer to leave the political aspect out of the discussion.

On 3/9/2014 4:45 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 3/9/2014 5:26 PM, Leon wrote:


It is a consensus. Most all TS reports, with the SawStop involved,
most always place the SawStop as a top quality machine.


Simply the arbor/trunnion assembly is quite HD on all models when
compared to the competition.

I'm part of the consensus.
I don't envision myself ever getting a new tablesaw, but if I did, it
would be SawStop. Well made tool and the safety is a bonus.

That said, if I ever opened a hot dog cart, I'd cut them with a knife as
the SawStop would be too time consuming for that operation.


And too expensive. LOL

On 3/9/2014 5:09 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 09 Mar 2014 13:46:49 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 3/9/2014 11:13 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 3/9/2014 10:35 AM, wrote:

There is no such thing as "safe". The only question is how much are
you willing to pay for each bit of "safety".

Especially when paying in freedoms:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phBEhZK5pvY




Buying yourself a gun for protection against the possibility of being
attacked or robbed is costly. But NOT nearly as costly as losing your
right to own that type of protection.

No one is asking you to loose your arm to buy a different brand.

Not sure I follow you here, not talking TS's any more.



Out lawing guns will only take protection away from the law biding
citizens. Criminals, the people we need guns to protect ourselves from,
will be the only ones that will still have guns if we lose our rights to
own guns.

Forcing SawStop on everyone will also take table saws away from a
*lot* of people.

Still not following, no one is being forced to buy SawStop but many are
actually loosing and have lost the right to own a fire arm.


Some people know karate and don't need guns to begin with. These people
know that the gun manufacturers are only out to make guns for profit and
really don't care about your safety.

Nonsense. Karate is no replacement for a gun, no matter what Bruce
Lee movies show. I suppose all gun manufacturers all delete safeties
from their guns because they want them to be dangerous? Umm, get
real!


Sorry, I should have use some kind of emoticon showing my tongue in my
cheek.

On Sun, 09 Mar 2014 18:15:05 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 3/9/2014 5:05 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 09 Mar 2014 13:31:05 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 3/9/2014 12:18 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 09 Mar 2014 13:03:10 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 09 Mar 2014 12:42:21 -0400, wrote:
Fact, Jack. That's *exactly* the decision I was confronted with.
$1600 for the Unisaw - $3500 for the "equivalent" SawStop. The $1600
was do-able (up from the $1400 for the budgeted Griz). $3500 would
have had me laughed out of the "capital acquisition" meeting.

As usual, your fact are full of holes.

Now you're calling me a liar. Figures.

Powermatic PM2000 ~ $3000
Delta 36-L352 ~ $3000
SawStop Professional cabinet saw ~ $3000

http://www.consumersearch.com/table-...s/cabinet-saws

I'm telling you WHAT MY DECISION WAS. GOT IT?

The REAL TRUTH is that MOST SawStop naysayers like you are too busy
letting your emotions overrule your common sense. You hate GASS'
business tactics so much that you'll consider any excuse to exclude a
SawStop from your purchasing condition.

Bull****. Like most suck-ups, you're talking out both sides of your
mouth. You admit that price is an issue and that there is a decision
to be made, yet you denigrate those who don't agree with a choice
you've NEVER MADE and probably never will.

I don't care that some love SawStop. Sobeit. Their decision.
However, when some know-nothing jumps into the fray, talking out both
sided of his mouth, it's really funny.



It does speak volumes to actually have stepped up and bought the saw. I
did.

Yes, it means you weighed the choices and decided that it was worth
it. I'm perfectly fine with that, as long as that choice exists.

Every one is entitled to their opinion with out being attacked and or
being compared to an idiot or the possibility of being more of an idiot.

Well, that's really at the bottom of my point. Choice is a good
thing.

Experience trumps, "what he said" or going with the popular consensus,
every time.

AGW is pretty popular but it doesn't make it right. Socialism is
pretty popular, right now, too.



I think where you and I may be at odds on this discussion is that you
might think that "I" think the SawStop should be in every ones shop. I
don't believe that to the extent that everyone must have one in their
shop.

You've certainly made that implication, in the past and really are
quite close to it in this.

I think it would be good if the competition would have partnered
with SawStop to begin with and then every one could have had the choice
of having the technology "or not" in the brands of their choice.

Gass had no intention of making it available with "reasonable and
non-discriminatory" conditions.

I prefer to leave the political aspect out of the discussion.

Impossible. It is at its heart a political discussion.

On Sun, 09 Mar 2014 18:09:31 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 3/9/2014 5:22 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 09 Mar 2014 13:14:50 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 3/9/2014 10:35 AM, wrote:
On Sun, 09 Mar 2014 11:19:11 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 09 Mar 2014 11:06:49 -0400, wrote:
Not like everything else. The difference is the cost (and the
patents). Let's do this again after the patents run out.

I'm wondering how many less than ten fingered woodworking people would
agree with you?

Completely irrelevant. A similar silly-statement would be "How many
people who had limbs lost in car accidents, prefer they stayed home
that day?". Life *is* about risk/reward, no matter how much the
nanny-state tries to tell you otherwise.

There is no such thing as "safe". The only question is how much are
you willing to pay for each bit of "safety". When I bought my saw, I
looked at a SawStop but decided that the Unisaw would look nice in the
garage (nicer than the Griz). A picture of a SawStop just wouldn't
cut it.

Do you have a SawStop?




FWIW I had the same attitude and comments here as those that have not
yet benefited from the SawStop or see the benefit of spending and extra
thousand on a saw, 25 years ago.

Completely irrelevant. Just because you bought into SawStop after 25
years, doesn't mean it's the right choice for everyone else. Saying
so is pure, unadulterated, snobbery.

No,no,no, I am not saying that every one should buy the SawStop so much
as I have a perspective from both sides and in my instance it was the
right choice for me.

I misread what you said. It sometimes reads like you are making that
case and at other times not. I apologize if I'm putting words in your
mouth.

As far as those that have not benefited, I am
referring to those that have used a SawStop and caused it to lock up the
blade to prevent a cut. I do believe that if you were to use one and
actually have an accident that causes the brake to engage and you don't
end up at the ER you probably would agree that the SawStop is really
worth a bit more consideration.

If. If. If. But you're right. When I had an asshole (switched
plates, no insurance, no DL, on parole from State Penn, etc.) run a
stop sign and T-Bone me, I wished I'd stayed in bed that day. However,
life is dangerous and that day paid the same as the other 10,000 days
I've driven to work.

You cut your self it is your own damn fault and you did something wrong.
I'll be careful and practice every rule that I have read or have been
taught.

Of course.

Then one day I cut half my thumb off, about 15 years later SawStop is on
the horizon. Today I own a SawStop. Wow what did I do wrong???
Hummmmmm obviously I did something wrong... and it took me about one
year to almost cut my thumb off again before I realized what had
actually happened. No set of safety rules "directly" addressed what
went wrong. I can assure you that safety rules only cover the basics
and it is not unusual to be in a situation that is not specifically
addressed in the "rules".

No set of "rules" keeps killers from killing, either. They do help (a
lot). Not all accidents are handled by SawStop, either. Dangerous
tools require care.

Exactly however the SawStop does help to prevent severing a body part.


Unfortunately one never really understands every conceivable way that
you can be injured by the TS, that is until you have an unfortunate
accident, IF you have an accident. No one ever tries to have an
accident but no one lives a charmed life, one with out accidents.

Irrelevant. Thousands of people never do have such an accident.

I am talking any kind of accident, tripping and falling, paper cut, etc.
We all know exactly how to prevent any of these accidents but they
still happen. We become complacent or something out of our control
happens. The same can happen with the TS.

Where is your RouterStop? ...or BandStop? ...or Heavens help us all,
JointerStop? Yes, that's my point. Life *is* dangerous. That's no
reason to be afraid or to spend lots of money in one small area of
life to make it "safe" at the expense of everything else.

It is all a matter of choice of how safe you want your equipment to be
and how much you value your safety.

...and choices you have. If I had a couple of extra thousand dollars,
at the time, I *might* have chosen SawStop, too. ...or a bandsaw. 'or
a Festool. ;-)

All things considered, and knowing what I do about why accidents are
called accidents, I choose my safety over principal.

SawStop only "fixes" one of the very many accidents that are lurking
for all of us. If I used my tools as a business, my choices would be
very different.

This is very true.



So for anyone that has not yet been convinced that a SawStop is a smart
investment or an investment worth saving up for, I totally understand, I
have been in your shoes.

That's really my point. Choice is good. In a decade, when the Gass
patents run out, I may trade.

So because you mentioned Gass is this more of an emotional decision
given many don't care for the way he operates? Or do you honestly
believe that with patent depletion that competition will drive the
prices down? Have you considered what inflation will do to the pricing?

Both, to be honest. I was trying to keep Gass' crony capitalism
attempts out of this discussion. Competition *will* drive the SawStop
*function* prices down as soon as the patents expire. Competition is
good.

For example and these are just close comparisons, about 10-12 years ago
the PM2000 with 50" fence and 3hp motor was approximately $2000. Today
Woodcraft offers it for $3364 before the current 15% sale discount.
in 2000 a similar Jet was $1300 today, $2449 before the 15% sale
discount. You can probably expect for prices to do the same in the
next 10 years and that is going to put those particular TS's in excess
of the price of an industrial SawStop today, $3999. For a more
comparable Professional SawStop, $2999. today. And yes, the SawStop
does compare in quality to the saws mentioned. It is not a budget built
machine.

Understood. I don't own a PM'anything. I once was about to buy one
of their drill presses but the price jumped rather big-time, just
about when the Delta 18-900L came out. I liked it a lot better, for
what the PM cost before the bump. The point is that you're comparing
it to the most expensive, not the "best values".

Just something to consider. Certainly the SawStop will be more
expensive later on too but there is no guarantee that the competition
will offer some type of similar safety feature then either, should you
find that you want a saw with that feature. Something to remember, all
of those competitors had the opportunity to have the SawStop technology
before SawStop considered building their own saw to compete. They did
not want it then, they may not want it later. Anyway none of the above
is certain to happen but by the same token is not a stretch of the
imagination either.

They didn't want to pay Gass' asking price (not just the $$).

And if yu simply don't want to send any pennies Gass's way that is OK
too. ;~)

I don't but not because of the technology. If it were a technology
issue, I'd want to see him as rich as Gates. I *like* to see rich
people. I don't like to see some people get rich, though. ;-)

On 3/9/2014 3:26 PM, Leon wrote:
On 3/9/2014 2:13 PM, Max wrote:
On 3/9/2014 10:28 AM, wrote:

some snip...but..

The SawStop mechanism DOES NOT double the price of the saw. It doesn't
even come close. The SawStop tablesaw itself is a well made, very
decent operating tablesaw with top notch fit and finish.

There's a number of regular $3000 tablesaws on the market and the
SawStop is as good if not better than all of them.


And that's a consensus or just an opinion. ;-)



It is a consensus. Most all TS reports, with the SawStop involved,
most always place the SawStop as a top quality machine.


Simply the arbor/trunnion assembly is quite HD on all models when
compared to the competition.

If it's a consensus how do other manufacturers manage to stay in business?

On 3/9/2014 6:23 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 09 Mar 2014 18:15:05 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 3/9/2014 5:05 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 09 Mar 2014 13:31:05 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 3/9/2014 12:18 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 09 Mar 2014 13:03:10 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 09 Mar 2014 12:42:21 -0400, wrote:
Fact, Jack. That's *exactly* the decision I was confronted with.
$1600 for the Unisaw - $3500 for the "equivalent" SawStop. The $1600
was do-able (up from the $1400 for the budgeted Griz). $3500 would
have had me laughed out of the "capital acquisition" meeting.

As usual, your fact are full of holes.

Now you're calling me a liar. Figures.

Powermatic PM2000 ~ $3000
Delta 36-L352 ~ $3000
SawStop Professional cabinet saw ~ $3000

http://www.consumersearch.com/table-...s/cabinet-saws

I'm telling you WHAT MY DECISION WAS. GOT IT?

The REAL TRUTH is that MOST SawStop naysayers like you are too busy
letting your emotions overrule your common sense. You hate GASS'
business tactics so much that you'll consider any excuse to exclude a
SawStop from your purchasing condition.

Bull****. Like most suck-ups, you're talking out both sides of your
mouth. You admit that price is an issue and that there is a decision
to be made, yet you denigrate those who don't agree with a choice
you've NEVER MADE and probably never will.

I don't care that some love SawStop. Sobeit. Their decision.
However, when some know-nothing jumps into the fray, talking out both
sided of his mouth, it's really funny.



It does speak volumes to actually have stepped up and bought the saw. I
did.

Yes, it means you weighed the choices and decided that it was worth
it. I'm perfectly fine with that, as long as that choice exists.

Every one is entitled to their opinion with out being attacked and or
being compared to an idiot or the possibility of being more of an idiot.

Well, that's really at the bottom of my point. Choice is a good
thing.

Experience trumps, "what he said" or going with the popular consensus,
every time.

AGW is pretty popular but it doesn't make it right. Socialism is
pretty popular, right now, too.



I think where you and I may be at odds on this discussion is that you
might think that "I" think the SawStop should be in every ones shop. I
don't believe that to the extent that everyone must have one in their
shop.

You've certainly made that implication, in the past and really are
quite close to it in this.

Well way way back when I thought it was a good enough idea to make
mandatory. I have changed my mind on that given the implications that if
you give them an inch they will take a mile. I never liked the method
of the product being marketed after being turned down by the other
builders. But I am quite flexible in my thinking. If you can show me
valid reasoning I will consider it but I prefer to leave the emotional
side of reasoning to my wife, and she would whole heartily agree.



I think it would be good if the competition would have partnered
with SawStop to begin with and then every one could have had the choice
of having the technology "or not" in the brands of their choice.

Gass had no intention of making it available with "reasonable and
non-discriminatory" conditions.

Well that is here say. Since no actual contracts were negotiated no one
really knows what the contracts would have said. Naturally a
manufacturer will ask the highest price that they think they can get.
And one of the manufacturers did agree to the some kind of terms but
something, and no one knows what that some thing was, did cause the deal
to fall through the cracks. I highly suspect there was some agreement,
by those that were approached, to not accept the offers and force this
new guy out. Little did any of them know just how successful Gass would
be in producing his own product and is also suspect they are all
probably rethinking the opportunity missed.
In a nut shell no one knows what any of the negotiated deals would have
been.



I prefer to leave the political aspect out of the discussion.

Impossible. It is at its heart a political discussion.

Perhaps impossible for you but I have no problem with simply looking at
the product. Now if you really want to get ****ed off lets consider the
fact that we no longer have a choice of buying health care or not. At
least with the SawStop the intentions were not to mandate that every
citizen of the US be required to buy a SawStop even if they did not ever
have any intention of buying any woodworking equipment what so ever.

On Sun, 09 Mar 2014 16:26:43 -0500, Leon wrote:

Simply the arbor/trunnion assembly is quite HD on all models when
compared to the competition.

That's certainly true. It *has* to be heavier to take the shock when/if
the brake fires.

But I worked for a power tool retailer for a few years and had the
opportunity to examine (and @#$% assemble) several brands and types of
table saws. I think the cabinet saws from Powermatic, General, and maybe
even Steel City, are equal or better in quality to the Sawstop.

A prospective buyer has to weigh the importance of quality, price, and
features. Different people will come to different conclusions.

--
Where have all the flowers gone? Pete Seeger 1919-2014

On Sun, 09 Mar 2014 13:03:10 -0400, none wrote:

As usual, your fact are full of holes.

Powermatic PM2000 ~ $3000
Delta 36-L352 ~ $3000
SawStop Professional cabinet saw ~ $3000

That's the low end Sawstop. The original is about $4500/

--
Where have all the flowers gone? Pete Seeger 1919-2014

On 3/9/2014 6:43 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 09 Mar 2014 18:09:31 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
Snip



No,no,no, I am not saying that every one should buy the SawStop so much
as I have a perspective from both sides and in my instance it was the
right choice for me.

I misread what you said. It sometimes reads like you are making that
case and at other times not. I apologize if I'm putting words in your
mouth.

No apology necessary. I don't claim to be perfectly clear. ;~)




As far as those that have not benefited, I am
referring to those that have used a SawStop and caused it to lock up the
blade to prevent a cut. I do believe that if you were to use one and
actually have an accident that causes the brake to engage and you don't
end up at the ER you probably would agree that the SawStop is really
worth a bit more consideration.

If. If. If. But you're right. When I had an asshole (switched
plates, no insurance, no DL, on parole from State Penn, etc.) run a
stop sign and T-Bone me, I wished I'd stayed in bed that day. However,
life is dangerous and that day paid the same as the other 10,000 days
I've driven to work.

YES lots of If's in there... Same reason we chose to have health
insurance or not, once upon a time.






You cut your self it is your own damn fault and you did something wrong.
I'll be careful and practice every rule that I have read or have been
taught.

Of course.

Then one day I cut half my thumb off, about 15 years later SawStop is on
the horizon. Today I own a SawStop. Wow what did I do wrong???
Hummmmmm obviously I did something wrong... and it took me about one
year to almost cut my thumb off again before I realized what had
actually happened. No set of safety rules "directly" addressed what
went wrong. I can assure you that safety rules only cover the basics
and it is not unusual to be in a situation that is not specifically
addressed in the "rules".

No set of "rules" keeps killers from killing, either. They do help (a
lot). Not all accidents are handled by SawStop, either. Dangerous
tools require care.

Exactly however the SawStop does help to prevent severing a body part.


Unfortunately one never really understands every conceivable way that
you can be injured by the TS, that is until you have an unfortunate
accident, IF you have an accident. No one ever tries to have an
accident but no one lives a charmed life, one with out accidents.

Irrelevant. Thousands of people never do have such an accident.

I am talking any kind of accident, tripping and falling, paper cut, etc.
We all know exactly how to prevent any of these accidents but they
still happen. We become complacent or something out of our control
happens. The same can happen with the TS.

Where is your RouterStop? ...or BandStop? ...or Heavens help us all,
JointerStop? Yes, that's my point. Life *is* dangerous. That's no
reason to be afraid or to spend lots of money in one small area of
life to make it "safe" at the expense of everything else.

Yeah but in many cases there are more obvious dangers and we try to
guard against them. Nothing has really changed, there are safe guards
everywhere and the vast majority are good things on their own merrit
despite the fact that the government mandated them and cause all of us
to pay way too much.



It is all a matter of choice of how safe you want your equipment to be
and how much you value your safety.

...and choices you have. If I had a couple of extra thousand dollars,
at the time, I *might* have chosen SawStop, too. ...or a bandsaw. 'or
a Festool. ;-)

All things considered, and knowing what I do about why accidents are
called accidents, I choose my safety over principal.

SawStop only "fixes" one of the very many accidents that are lurking
for all of us. If I used my tools as a business, my choices would be
very different.

This is very true.



So for anyone that has not yet been convinced that a SawStop is a smart
investment or an investment worth saving up for, I totally understand, I
have been in your shoes.

That's really my point. Choice is good. In a decade, when the Gass
patents run out, I may trade.

So because you mentioned Gass is this more of an emotional decision
given many don't care for the way he operates? Or do you honestly
believe that with patent depletion that competition will drive the
prices down? Have you considered what inflation will do to the pricing?

Both, to be honest. I was trying to keep Gass' crony capitalism
attempts out of this discussion. Competition *will* drive the SawStop
*function* prices down as soon as the patents expire. Competition is
good.

Well I commend you for admitting to both. You have now presented a
valid reason for the way you think about the SS. And yes competition is
good for all.






For example and these are just close comparisons, about 10-12 years ago
the PM2000 with 50" fence and 3hp motor was approximately $2000. Today
Woodcraft offers it for $3364 before the current 15% sale discount.
in 2000 a similar Jet was $1300 today, $2449 before the 15% sale
discount. You can probably expect for prices to do the same in the
next 10 years and that is going to put those particular TS's in excess
of the price of an industrial SawStop today, $3999. For a more
comparable Professional SawStop, $2999. today. And yes, the SawStop
does compare in quality to the saws mentioned. It is not a budget built
machine.

Understood. I don't own a PM'anything. I once was about to buy one
of their drill presses but the price jumped rather big-time, just
about when the Delta 18-900L came out. I liked it a lot better, for
what the PM cost before the bump. The point is that you're comparing
it to the most expensive, not the "best values".

Sorry on the comparison, I was shooting for the best comparison of like
build quality, fit, finish, features. etc.... For simply cutting a
board there is not bottom limit for what will suffice.


Just something to consider. Certainly the SawStop will be more
expensive later on too but there is no guarantee that the competition
will offer some type of similar safety feature then either, should you
find that you want a saw with that feature. Something to remember, all
of those competitors had the opportunity to have the SawStop technology
before SawStop considered building their own saw to compete. They did
not want it then, they may not want it later. Anyway none of the above
is certain to happen but by the same token is not a stretch of the
imagination either.

They didn't want to pay Gass' asking price (not just the $$).

Understood but you never know what the actual price and or concessions
will be until after the contract is agreed upon by both parties.


And if yu simply don't want to send any pennies Gass's way that is OK
too. ;~)

I don't but not because of the technology. If it were a technology
issue, I'd want to see him as rich as Gates. I *like* to see rich
people. I don't like to see some people get rich, though. ;-)

;~) Understood.

On Sun, 09 Mar 2014 18:09:31 -0500, Leon wrote:

And if yu simply don't want to send any pennies Gass's way that is OK
too.
;~)

Well, there is that :-).

But now that we've resurrected the Sawstop debate, would the original
poster please tell us what he decided to buy. Or did we thoroughly
confuse the issue?

--
Where have all the flowers gone? Pete Seeger 1919-2014

Subject

As soon as the insurance companies determine that customers who
use a SawStop tablesaw have lower injury payouts, this discussion
will be moot.

Lew

On 3/9/2014 7:30 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
On Sun, 09 Mar 2014 18:09:31 -0500, Leon wrote:

And if yu simply don't want to send any pennies Gass's way that is OK
too.
;~)

Well, there is that :-).

But now that we've resurrected the Sawstop debate, would the original
poster please tell us what he decided to buy. Or did we thoroughly
confuse the issue?



Yeah Buckwheat, Tyrone, Max, Larry J. Which did you decide on. I think
you know who may be all four of these guys.

On 3/9/2014 8:06 PM, Max wrote:


And that's a consensus or just an opinion. ;-)



It is a consensus. Most all TS reports, with the SawStop involved,
most always place the SawStop as a top quality machine.


Simply the arbor/trunnion assembly is quite HD on all models when
compared to the competition.

If it's a consensus how do other manufacturers manage to stay in business?

By making sales of tablesaws. While the consensus is Lamborghini is a
fun car to drive to work, most of us can't afford one for an every day
driver. Sears still sells a bunch of the $299 saws to people that would
rather have a $1500 SawStop.

Leon wrote:
On 3/9/2014 7:06 PM, Max wrote:
On 3/9/2014 3:26 PM, Leon wrote:
On 3/9/2014 2:13 PM, Max wrote:
On 3/9/2014 10:28 AM, wrote:

some snip...but..

The SawStop mechanism DOES NOT double the price of the saw. It
doesn't
even come close. The SawStop tablesaw itself is a well made, very
decent operating tablesaw with top notch fit and finish.

There's a number of regular $3000 tablesaws on the market and the
SawStop is as good if not better than all of them.


And that's a consensus or just an opinion. ;-)



It is a consensus. Most all TS reports, with the SawStop involved,
most always place the SawStop as a top quality machine.


Simply the arbor/trunnion assembly is quite HD on all models when
compared to the competition.

If it's a consensus how do other manufacturers manage to stay in
business?


That is kind of a jerk knee question. A bit of research would provide
those answers.

But,

Delta by a thread. They are but a small fraction in size and in
offerings compared to what they offered 5~8 years ago.

Have you actually asked a store that sells SawStop how the SS units
sell compared to the other brands?

My local Woodcraft store says nobody buys anything else. I don't
believe them.