On Sun, 09 Mar 2014 18:09:31 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 3/9/2014 5:22 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 09 Mar 2014 13:14:50 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 3/9/2014 10:35 AM, wrote:
On Sun, 09 Mar 2014 11:19:11 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 09 Mar 2014 11:06:49 -0400, wrote:
Not like everything else. The difference is the cost (and the
patents). Let's do this again after the patents run out.

I'm wondering how many less than ten fingered woodworking people would
agree with you?

Completely irrelevant. A similar silly-statement would be "How many
people who had limbs lost in car accidents, prefer they stayed home
that day?". Life *is* about risk/reward, no matter how much the
nanny-state tries to tell you otherwise.

There is no such thing as "safe". The only question is how much are
you willing to pay for each bit of "safety". When I bought my saw, I
looked at a SawStop but decided that the Unisaw would look nice in the
garage (nicer than the Griz). A picture of a SawStop just wouldn't
cut it.

Do you have a SawStop?




FWIW I had the same attitude and comments here as those that have not
yet benefited from the SawStop or see the benefit of spending and extra
thousand on a saw, 25 years ago.

Completely irrelevant. Just because you bought into SawStop after 25
years, doesn't mean it's the right choice for everyone else. Saying
so is pure, unadulterated, snobbery.

No,no,no, I am not saying that every one should buy the SawStop so much
as I have a perspective from both sides and in my instance it was the
right choice for me.

I misread what you said. It sometimes reads like you are making that
case and at other times not. I apologize if I'm putting words in your
mouth.

As far as those that have not benefited, I am
referring to those that have used a SawStop and caused it to lock up the
blade to prevent a cut. I do believe that if you were to use one and
actually have an accident that causes the brake to engage and you don't
end up at the ER you probably would agree that the SawStop is really
worth a bit more consideration.

If. If. If. But you're right. When I had an asshole (switched
plates, no insurance, no DL, on parole from State Penn, etc.) run a
stop sign and T-Bone me, I wished I'd stayed in bed that day. However,
life is dangerous and that day paid the same as the other 10,000 days
I've driven to work.

You cut your self it is your own damn fault and you did something wrong.
I'll be careful and practice every rule that I have read or have been
taught.

Of course.

Then one day I cut half my thumb off, about 15 years later SawStop is on
the horizon. Today I own a SawStop. Wow what did I do wrong???
Hummmmmm obviously I did something wrong... and it took me about one
year to almost cut my thumb off again before I realized what had
actually happened. No set of safety rules "directly" addressed what
went wrong. I can assure you that safety rules only cover the basics
and it is not unusual to be in a situation that is not specifically
addressed in the "rules".

No set of "rules" keeps killers from killing, either. They do help (a
lot). Not all accidents are handled by SawStop, either. Dangerous
tools require care.

Exactly however the SawStop does help to prevent severing a body part.


Unfortunately one never really understands every conceivable way that
you can be injured by the TS, that is until you have an unfortunate
accident, IF you have an accident. No one ever tries to have an
accident but no one lives a charmed life, one with out accidents.

Irrelevant. Thousands of people never do have such an accident.

I am talking any kind of accident, tripping and falling, paper cut, etc.
We all know exactly how to prevent any of these accidents but they
still happen. We become complacent or something out of our control
happens. The same can happen with the TS.

Where is your RouterStop? ...or BandStop? ...or Heavens help us all,
JointerStop? Yes, that's my point. Life *is* dangerous. That's no
reason to be afraid or to spend lots of money in one small area of
life to make it "safe" at the expense of everything else.

It is all a matter of choice of how safe you want your equipment to be
and how much you value your safety.

...and choices you have. If I had a couple of extra thousand dollars,
at the time, I *might* have chosen SawStop, too. ...or a bandsaw. 'or
a Festool. ;-)

All things considered, and knowing what I do about why accidents are
called accidents, I choose my safety over principal.

SawStop only "fixes" one of the very many accidents that are lurking
for all of us. If I used my tools as a business, my choices would be
very different.

This is very true.



So for anyone that has not yet been convinced that a SawStop is a smart
investment or an investment worth saving up for, I totally understand, I
have been in your shoes.

That's really my point. Choice is good. In a decade, when the Gass
patents run out, I may trade.

So because you mentioned Gass is this more of an emotional decision
given many don't care for the way he operates? Or do you honestly
believe that with patent depletion that competition will drive the
prices down? Have you considered what inflation will do to the pricing?

Both, to be honest. I was trying to keep Gass' crony capitalism
attempts out of this discussion. Competition *will* drive the SawStop
*function* prices down as soon as the patents expire. Competition is
good.

For example and these are just close comparisons, about 10-12 years ago
the PM2000 with 50" fence and 3hp motor was approximately $2000. Today
Woodcraft offers it for $3364 before the current 15% sale discount.
in 2000 a similar Jet was $1300 today, $2449 before the 15% sale
discount. You can probably expect for prices to do the same in the
next 10 years and that is going to put those particular TS's in excess
of the price of an industrial SawStop today, $3999. For a more
comparable Professional SawStop, $2999. today. And yes, the SawStop
does compare in quality to the saws mentioned. It is not a budget built
machine.

Understood. I don't own a PM'anything. I once was about to buy one
of their drill presses but the price jumped rather big-time, just
about when the Delta 18-900L came out. I liked it a lot better, for
what the PM cost before the bump. The point is that you're comparing
it to the most expensive, not the "best values".

Just something to consider. Certainly the SawStop will be more
expensive later on too but there is no guarantee that the competition
will offer some type of similar safety feature then either, should you
find that you want a saw with that feature. Something to remember, all
of those competitors had the opportunity to have the SawStop technology
before SawStop considered building their own saw to compete. They did
not want it then, they may not want it later. Anyway none of the above
is certain to happen but by the same token is not a stretch of the
imagination either.

They didn't want to pay Gass' asking price (not just the $$).

And if yu simply don't want to send any pennies Gass's way that is OK
too. ;~)

I don't but not because of the technology. If it were a technology
issue, I'd want to see him as rich as Gates. I *like* to see rich
people. I don't like to see some people get rich, though. ;-)