On Tue, 11 Mar 2014 03:25:02 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 10 Mar 2014 20:36:41 -0400, wrote:
The cost was obviously more than the makers thought it was worth. The
numbers thrown around were way out of line.

In your opinion which is almost always crap;

You really have to prove that you're an asshole every day, don't you?

The proof is in the (empty bowl of) pudding.
Gass' power play with the FTC tells a lot.

As usual, your emotions and your senility rule you.

You're full of ****, as usual.

On 3/11/2014 1:49 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Leon wrote:
On 3/11/2014 11:07 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 3/11/2014 9:10 AM, Leon wrote:



I can see an insurance company recommending the SawStop but to
demand what equipment you use will probably not fly. Unless laws
dictates such, they too could be found liable in a case where the
SawStop might fail for what ever reason.

Most likely they would have the demand in the form of premiums.

If you insure with us and you use SawStop (or equal) $X
If you keep your old equipment where you took the guards off, $X
times 10.

I could see that happening in my own mind but I wonder if they can
actually do that or not. I know there are areas where they can
charge higher premiums based on risk - such as the cost to insure a
Corvette compared to a Honda Civic, but most states regulate the
insurance carriers and there are (at least some) restrictions on how
they do that. Not being well versed in the business of insurance, I
don't know. There is a lot of misunderstand about what insurance
companies can do. It's common here to see people state that your
insurance company can deny a claim because your house burns down due
to faulty wiring that you installed. Not true at all, but I just
don't know how far they can really go.


Sure they can, my home owners premiums went down and I received,
IIRC, a $250 credit every year for having a metal roof put on my
house many years ago. Often items that are more likely to be more
risk or less risk will affect the price.

Ok - and how did that differ from what I stated above?

I was mostly responding to your first sentence.

I could see that happening in my own mind but I wonder if they can
actually do that or not.

Sorry.





But Auto insurance is another matter entirely.

And actually your credit score has more to do with auto insurance
premiums differences between a Corvette and a Civic than Actual risk,
assuming both are owned and insured by the same person.

Oh Leon... you have to go back on that one. Look at what you wrote...
"assuming both are owned and insured by the same person" means that credit
rating is completely irrelevant.

I meant to indicate that if the Corvette and Civic are both owned and
insured by the same persons the rate would be similar. That could be
similarly expensive or similarly less expensive.



My son, age 25 at the time and 26 now, was discussing this with his
insurance agent. He owns an 84 Corvette in almost mint condition and
an 05 Cavalier. Premium differences between the two are not much.

I find that very hard to believe, but maybe things are different down in
Texas than they are in NY. In NY that would never be the case. The
Corvette is a much more expensive car to insure based on repair costs.

Again, that is what we thought and it used to be the case here back when
I was in the automotive business. Now of course your driving record
probably still trumps any other indicator. Oddly, now it seems that
your credit rating and, I'm sorry I left this out, where you live in
Texas determines what your premiums are going to be. I was always
surprised since the 90's that when my wife and I bought new vehicles
that our insurance rates never really differed much. Maybe $50 a year.






IIRC the Corvette is less expensive with an antique style policy.

That may be true if it falls withing the classic auto category, but that is
a category that is not as obvious at it may appear.

His credit score has more to do with his rates than anything. My son
was concerned about buying a new Lexus and how much his rates would
go up. Less than $25~$40 per year difference by dropping the 9 year
old Cavalier and buying the 2014 Lexus.

I don't know myself, but I would not be surprised if credit score did play
into things since it seems to play into everything these days. In NY if you
buy any new car, it is most likely your rates will go up from whatever you
insured before (unless it was something exotic). Here, you could not step
from say a Hyundai Sonata to a Lexus without a significant rate increase.
Hell you can't even step from a 5 year old Sonata to a brand new Sonata
without a significant rate increase.

That sounds logical but maybe we Texans are much better drivers than you
Yanks' LOL.... But seriously I had an 87 Isuzu Trooper that I bought
when I still worked for the dealer. It had AC and a radio and that was
about it. IIRC it stickered for $14000 or so. Replaced with a 97
Silverado that was pretty much loaded. Stickered for about $25k.
Insurance went up less than $100 a year. I was shocked. Traded that
vehicle in on an 07 Tundra similarly equipped. Stickered way north of
$30k. Insurance went up about $50 per year.
I still have that vehicle and we bought my wife a new 2012 loaded Camry
18 months ago. Our insurance premiums run $822 per year for both.

Just talked to my son, I was wrong about the Corvette. ;~) He pays just
under $300 per year for it and about $900 a year for the Cavalier. The
stipulation with the Corvette is that it has to be over 25 years old and
it cannot be your primary vehicle. You have to own and insure another
vehicle as primary transportation.

Why does he pay more than my wife and I do for two newer vehicles
compared to his older vehicle? Age and location. We live in a
different county than he does, actually his county is next to ours.
Harris county is expensive for all insurance. Our new home, out side of
Harris county, insurance premium is with in $100 per year as our old
home. The new home is valued about 80% more than the old home.






It seems that different states regulate things differently, so we have to be
careful how much we try to generalize these experiences.

And in our case where in the state you live.





As an example he gave the rates for a new Accord for a couple with a
less than desirable credit score. They would have paid about 2.5 time
more for the new Accord policy as my son would for the Lexus policy.

So I just tried the same thing with an on-line insurance offering. I used
my own information which is a high credit rating. My friend then did the
very same thing with a miserable credit rating. Premiums are the same.
Must be a state by state thing.


Must be.

On 3/11/2014 2:00 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Leon wrote:


It is absolutely a common sense thing. But many people let their
emotions factor in on their decisions.

Well - of course we do - we are people. If you try to deny that you don't
do the same, I'm going to have to call you on that. You may feel that you
are totally logical, but that is only based on how you, or I, or anyone else
views our own sense of logic. I will assure you - there is no such thing as
a totally logical person on the face of this earth.

Hell I did not say I was totally logical Mike. LOL. I only try to
think logically and try not to let emotions/excitement enter into the
equation.







If you simply factor in
nothing but facts

Caution Will Robinson... the word "facts" has lots of defintions, depending
on the perspective of the definer.

Exactly. so shall we define Facts as a common published bit of
information. Fact or not. LOL




the choice become more clear. For example new car
dealers want you to take that test drive. The excitement of driving
a new vehicle helps to sell the vehicle. Now having said that we had
to help bail out GM and many people are not going to want to have any
thing to do with a company that had to be bailed out by the
government. Does this make their vehicles a bad choice? Yes if you
now hate GM, "maybe not' if you look strictly at the vehicle itself.

Ummmmm... giving you a lot of room on this one Leon, but it really does not
make any sense. There are lots of reasons why people would never buy
another GM product again, from experiences, to dislike of the bailout, to
dislike of their continued denial of problems (like the Cavalier) that are
costing lives every year. You have painted way to broad of a brush
statement above. Just can't accept that one.


just giving a simple example. There are plenty of reasons to buy or not
buy GM.




This whole disagreement on the SawStop is mostly based on whether you
have a dislike for the SawStop product because of it's owner or if you
simply judge the product on it's own merits.

Sorry - but wrong again Leon. People have articulated other reasons that
may not seem so different from what you say above but you can't allow
yourself to lump things into categories that make sense to you. Even if
those arguments are only slightly different from what you see, they are
still different. And - those are their thoughts.

Again if you let emotion
play a part of your decision making you may not get the best deal on
paper.

Oh hell Leon - be honest - we all do that. Even you - and your wife...

As with anything you buy if you are happy with your decision
you got a good deal for you.

Agreed!

We like to buy what we like whether
what we like is a good product or not. When we put aside the good
feeling and look only at the facts we make better decisions.

There is that word "facts" again. Facts are only facts in the eye of those
who believe in those "facts".


Ok that's it! When you do finally get clearance to visit you get the
"BED OF NAILS" ;~)

On Tue, 11 Mar 2014 08:51:07 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 3/10/2014 7:36 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 09 Mar 2014 19:11:06 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 3/9/2014 6:23 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 09 Mar 2014 18:15:05 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 3/9/2014 5:05 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 09 Mar 2014 13:31:05 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 3/9/2014 12:18 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 09 Mar 2014 13:03:10 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 09 Mar 2014 12:42:21 -0400, wrote:
Fact, Jack. That's *exactly* the decision I was confronted with.
$1600 for the Unisaw - $3500 for the "equivalent" SawStop. The $1600
was do-able (up from the $1400 for the budgeted Griz). $3500 would
have had me laughed out of the "capital acquisition" meeting.

As usual, your fact are full of holes.

Now you're calling me a liar. Figures.

Powermatic PM2000 ~ $3000
Delta 36-L352 ~ $3000
SawStop Professional cabinet saw ~ $3000

http://www.consumersearch.com/table-...s/cabinet-saws

I'm telling you WHAT MY DECISION WAS. GOT IT?

The REAL TRUTH is that MOST SawStop naysayers like you are too busy
letting your emotions overrule your common sense. You hate GASS'
business tactics so much that you'll consider any excuse to exclude a
SawStop from your purchasing condition.

Bull****. Like most suck-ups, you're talking out both sides of your
mouth. You admit that price is an issue and that there is a decision
to be made, yet you denigrate those who don't agree with a choice
you've NEVER MADE and probably never will.

I don't care that some love SawStop. Sobeit. Their decision.
However, when some know-nothing jumps into the fray, talking out both
sided of his mouth, it's really funny.



It does speak volumes to actually have stepped up and bought the saw. I
did.

Yes, it means you weighed the choices and decided that it was worth
it. I'm perfectly fine with that, as long as that choice exists.

Every one is entitled to their opinion with out being attacked and or
being compared to an idiot or the possibility of being more of an idiot.

Well, that's really at the bottom of my point. Choice is a good
thing.

Experience trumps, "what he said" or going with the popular consensus,
every time.

AGW is pretty popular but it doesn't make it right. Socialism is
pretty popular, right now, too.



I think where you and I may be at odds on this discussion is that you
might think that "I" think the SawStop should be in every ones shop. I
don't believe that to the extent that everyone must have one in their
shop.

You've certainly made that implication, in the past and really are
quite close to it in this.

Well way way back when I thought it was a good enough idea to make
mandatory. I have changed my mind on that given the implications that if
you give them an inch they will take a mile.

There is lots not to like about the nanny state.

Yes there are LOT"S not to like. Given that, there is a thing or two
that is of benefit to some one.

The one that bought the congresscritter, perhaps. Liberty is better
for everyone else, though.


I never liked the method
of the product being marketed after being turned down by the other
builders.

Not sure I follow this sentence.

Gass lobbied to have his technology mandated after being turned down and
or the deals fell through prior to him actually manufacturing the
product himself.

Thanks. I took it to mean that you didn't like his marketing (making)
the saw himself, after he couldn't find anyone else to license his
patent. I didn't make any sense. ;-)

And on another note it could be assumed that given the methods he used
to bring the product to market and the fact that he is a patent attorney
might dictate that his product be damn well effective and no cost
cutting measures be used if there is possibility of those measures
affecting the performance of the saw. Imagine the vengeance that would
be directed toward him or his company should there be and injury and any
proof of tampering or change of design to save production costs.

Sure. I don't take anything away from him for the technology/patent,
just his tactics.

But I am quite flexible in my thinking. If you can show me
valid reasoning I will consider it but I prefer to leave the emotional
side of reasoning to my wife, and she would whole heartily agree.

"Cost vs. benefit" is emotional?

In my case more of a deduction. Given my previous profession and
decision making on a daily basis there was not time for emotion. I
still think this way, for the most part, and probably why I have a bit
of a different attitude towards the SawStop political side.

OK? I came to the opposite conclusion. Same facts + different
weighting = different answer. That's "emotional" and yours wasn't?



I think it would be good if the competition would have partnered
with SawStop to begin with and then every one could have had the choice
of having the technology "or not" in the brands of their choice.

Gass had no intention of making it available with "reasonable and
non-discriminatory" conditions.

That would be an assumption but not a fact. Because no contracts are in
effect no one knows what might have been. Believing/thinking that he
had no intention of being flexible during a real negotiation would be
like a similar assumption that the company that he actually did have a
deal with was strong armed by the other manufacturers to not go through
with the agreement. A reasonable assumption but only an assumption.

My conclusion from the writings at the time. It's the best
information we'll ever have.


Well that is here say. Since no actual contracts were negotiated no one
really knows what the contracts would have said. Naturally a
manufacturer will ask the highest price that they think they can get.

The cost was obviously more than the makers thought it was worth. The
numbers thrown around were way out of line.

I do believe that cost was the prime factor. BUT not necessarily only
the cost of paying Gass.

Disagree, well, after what it would take to actually produce and
market the saw with the brake.

There are many many other costs that could
have and probably were factored in. What would the cost be for
additional product liability for something that they had not developed
themselves. What would be the cost of having double inventory and
manufacturing capability for the saws with and with out technology.

Sure, those are costs but I don't think they're on the same order of
magnitude. Did the survivors of seat belt accident victims sue Ford
and GM after seat belts were installed? "Best practices" and all
that.

What would tooling cost to reinvent their product to be compatible with
the technology. There are countless down the road expenses that come
into play other than simply the cost of to use the technology. Changing
your product is quite expensive in itself. You really don't see many
changes in these type products through out the life of the basic design.
The Unisaw saw is quite old and kept it's basic design for many many
years. Only recently did Delta change that design drastically and it
appears that the new design is not on every ones wish list. Sales of
the old Unisaw design were probably better than the new Unisaw design.

About the same time as the SawStop patents (2002). I'd love the new
design but, like the SawStop, it's well beyond what I was willing to
pay. There is no way it's worth 2x the old design.

And one of the manufacturers did agree to the some kind of terms but
something, and no one knows what that some thing was, did cause the deal
to fall through the cracks.

The proof is in the (empty bowl of) pudding.

Well there is no proof actually. That would be another assumption. Do
you know exactly why the deal fell through? Have you seen the written
reason that the company used to withdraw from the agreement?

It didn't happen. If it would make them money, do you think they'd
refuse? A former boss taught me the meaning of the "existence
theorem", long ago. ;-)


I highly suspect there was some agreement,
by those that were approached, to not accept the offers and force this
new guy out. Little did any of them know just how successful Gass would
be in producing his own product and is also suspect they are all
probably rethinking the opportunity missed.
In a nut shell no one knows what any of the negotiated deals would have
been.

Gass' power play with the FTC tells a lot.

Yes it does seem to look that way. And my thoughts just above, about
why the deal/deals fell through, are just an assumption.





I prefer to leave the political aspect out of the discussion.

Impossible. It is at its heart a political discussion.

Perhaps impossible for you but I have no problem with simply looking at
the product. Now if you really want to get ****ed off lets consider the
fact that we no longer have a choice of buying health care or not. At
least with the SawStop the intentions were not to mandate that every
citizen of the US be required to buy a SawStop even if they did not ever
have any intention of buying any woodworking equipment what so ever.

I don't see a lot of difference. Show me where either is in the
Constitution as an "enumerated power".

Not sure I follow, could you be more explicit?

Where does the Constitution explicitly allow federal government
control of my safety? Are soda drinks next?

On Tue, 11 Mar 2014 05:43:04 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 09 Mar 2014 13:18:27 -0400, wrote:
Now you're calling me a liar. Figures.

Fact is, you are a liar.

You can't even read, moron.

You twist what's been said, ignore pertinent
statements and outright lie when it serves your purpose. Coupled with
your ongoing senility, any discussion where there's even the slightest
disagreement, you go off the deep and start fabricating bull****.

You're lying. Again. Still. Again, if you don't like what you think
I write, why do you torture yourself by reading it? You must be as
stupid as I've said to put yourself through that much pain.

On Tue, 11 Mar 2014 03:15:05 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 10 Mar 2014 12:24:05 -0400, wrote:
His whole example was done to lie. It's his MO.

I read your crap for its entertainment value. You don't like what I
post? Take some of your own advice and don't read it.

You're lying again. You can't even read.

Not that I expected anything different, but you really are a senile
old fool aren't you?

More proof of your lies. Keep it up. You'll prove to everyone else
what I've known for a long time.

On Mon, 10 Mar 2014 19:18:10 -0700, "Lew Hodgett"
wrote:


Leon wrote:

Is that right? no. IMHO only the manufacturer of a defective
product should be held liable. No one in between.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Mom & Pop Industries, capitalized for $1Meg manufactures a
product that is sold by Walmart.

During use, product fails and kills user.

Who do you think Larry the Lawyer is going to sue?

Everyone, including the UPS guy delivering the package.

On Tue, 11 Mar 2014 08:06:34 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 3/10/2014 7:41 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 10 Mar 2014 12:45:47 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 3/10/2014 12:16 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 3/10/2014 12:27 AM, Leon wrote:
On 3/9/2014 9:20 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 3/9/2014 8:52 PM, Bill wrote:

Have you actually asked a store that sells SawStop how the SS
units sell compared to the other brands?

My local Woodcraft store says nobody buys anything else. I don't
believe them.


They don't even list Delta on their website, but lots of SawStop.


Retail 101, you sell and stock to meet demand.

Possibly another economic factor too. Lawyers tend to drag everyone
into the suits that has loose change in their pockets. "Woodcraft
knowingly sold this XYZ brand to my client knowing he could cut his
penis off if he jumped on top of the saw"

I don't buy that one. I admit that I do not follow this stuff, but it seems
to me that the lawsuits that have been filed and won were against the
manufacturer and not against the retailers. It seems to me that retailers
are not being held accountable in the manner that you suggest.



While that is logical, only going after the manufacturer and not the
retailer, even back in the 80's an AC/Delco wholesaler, that I was the
GM for, had liability insurance in case there was a law suite from a
failed part that we sold to a dealer. We installed nothing. Especially
today a lawyer is going to go after who ever he can to win a case.

"Deep pocket" syndrome. Sue everyone and let the judge (god) figure
it out. "Joint and Several" liability laws make it so that even if
found 5% liable, you may be on the hook for 100% of the award. Not a
good position to be in.

Exactly. And why it is a smart move to have liability insurance so that
you don't have to hire an attorney to defend you. The insurance company
is going to pay the attorneys and they have much deeper pockets than the
most. Even if you are totally found innocent and owe nothing you are
out the expense of defending yourself and product liability insurance
for a retailer is probably going to be less expensive.

That's why I have a megabuck rider on my homeowner's insurance (covers
the cars, too). It's cheap "lawyer insurance".

On 3/11/2014 2:28 PM, Bill wrote:
Leon wrote:

This discussion is not so much about right or wrong so much as can you
afford to defend yourself if you don't have liability insurance.

Just a comment (since you were thoughtful enough to consider my "green
night-crawler case"). Some entity that doesn't have enough resources
to defend itself, probably doesn't make much of a legal target. Of
course, I'm sure there is a middle ground where it is profitable...

BTW, I appreciate you pointing out the tactic that car-salesman might
use--to get you behind the wheel to give you the "new car rush". It has
never occurred to me.

Bill

If buying new from a dealer....

Want another hint? Don't buy a vehicle on the day that you test drive
it. And do let the salesman know up front.

You want to test drive a vehicle after you have narrowed down the field
of contenders. You don't want to test drive a vehicle you don't like to
start with.

Once you have settled on acceptable choices go to KBB or Edmunds and
build the vehicles you want. Be Specific. You will get a price on the
vehicle that you built and what you can expect to pay in your area.

Next, let the web site refer you to a dealer of your choice and let them
respond by e-mail. The dealer will know what you are looking for and
know that you know what people are actually paying. Typically you will
be dealing with an internet sales manager and normally customers that
are brought in this way are serious about buying so they normally will
make you a good offer right up front before coming in. If you like the
offer make an appointment and take the test drive. They will almost
always show you vehicle with at least as many options as you were
looking for. It is a given that anything that the dealer adds on is
going to be included in the deal at no additional cost.

Leave emotion out of the experience, this is a business negotiation and
transaction. Don't waste their time. The more respectful you are of
their time the more likely they will not let something relatively simple
or inexpensive spoil the deal.

wrote:


Yes, I had that happen once. I was paying around $300/yr for
insurance. They billed me $1500, even though I *had* insurance. The
kicker is that they were paying the premiums from escrow! That
mortgage company was as crooked as they come.

Tell me - was it Washington Mutual?

--

-Mike-

On Tue, 11 Mar 2014 20:51:52 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 3/11/2014 2:28 PM, Bill wrote:
Leon wrote:

This discussion is not so much about right or wrong so much as can you
afford to defend yourself if you don't have liability insurance.

Just a comment (since you were thoughtful enough to consider my "green
night-crawler case"). Some entity that doesn't have enough resources
to defend itself, probably doesn't make much of a legal target. Of
course, I'm sure there is a middle ground where it is profitable...

BTW, I appreciate you pointing out the tactic that car-salesman might
use--to get you behind the wheel to give you the "new car rush". It has
never occurred to me.

Bill

If buying new from a dealer....

Want another hint? Don't buy a vehicle on the day that you test drive
it. And do let the salesman know up front.

The last two, I bought on the same day (well, my truck wasn't exactly
the same one - had to get it from another dealer). No issues, though.
The deals were between me and Ford. Even the saleswoman got paid
directly by Ford. I paid essentially invoice minus cashbacks ($8K, in
the case of the truck ;-).

You want to test drive a vehicle after you have narrowed down the field
of contenders. You don't want to test drive a vehicle you don't like to
start with.

Not worth my time or the waste of the salesman's time.

Once you have settled on acceptable choices go to KBB or Edmunds and
build the vehicles you want. Be Specific. You will get a price on the
vehicle that you built and what you can expect to pay in your area.

You can do that on the manufacturer's web site.

Next, let the web site refer you to a dealer of your choice and let them
respond by e-mail. The dealer will know what you are looking for and
know that you know what people are actually paying. Typically you will
be dealing with an internet sales manager and normally customers that
are brought in this way are serious about buying so they normally will
make you a good offer right up front before coming in. If you like the
offer make an appointment and take the test drive. They will almost
always show you vehicle with at least as many options as you were
looking for. It is a given that anything that the dealer adds on is
going to be included in the deal at no additional cost.

I had zero luck with that process. The Internet sales manager only
tried to sell me what he had, and didn't care what I wanted. I went
to a different dealership (they lost two sales - a week apart). I let
them know it, the next time they spammed me.

Leave emotion out of the experience, this is a business negotiation and
transaction. Don't waste their time. The more respectful you are of
their time the more likely they will not let something relatively simple
or inexpensive spoil the deal.

+1

Leon wrote:


Ok that's it! When you do finally get clearance to visit you get the
"BED OF NAILS" ;~)

:-)

(and I never use emoticons...)

--

-Mike-

On Tue, 11 Mar 2014 21:59:13 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

wrote:


Yes, I had that happen once. I was paying around $300/yr for
insurance. They billed me $1500, even though I *had* insurance. The
kicker is that they were paying the premiums from escrow! That
mortgage company was as crooked as they come.

Tell me - was it Washington Mutual?

No, it was a smaller "local" company. I don't even remember who it
was. Every six months they sent us a letter stating that our payment
was received late and they were charging us $50 plus interest. My
wife always called them the next day, from work. They always claimed
that the check didn't reach them on the "penalty" date. She
essentially called them a liar because it had cleared our bank a week
before they claimed they received it. She was looking at the account
on the computer when she called them (she worked for the bank ;-).
They would back down but how many didn't challenge them?

wrote:
On Tue, 11 Mar 2014 21:59:13 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

wrote:


Yes, I had that happen once. I was paying around $300/yr for
insurance. They billed me $1500, even though I *had* insurance.
The kicker is that they were paying the premiums from escrow! That
mortgage company was as crooked as they come.

Tell me - was it Washington Mutual?

No, it was a smaller "local" company. I don't even remember who it
was. Every six months they sent us a letter stating that our payment
was received late and they were charging us $50 plus interest. My
wife always called them the next day, from work. They always claimed
that the check didn't reach them on the "penalty" date. She
essentially called them a liar because it had cleared our bank a week
before they claimed they received it. She was looking at the account
on the computer when she called them (she worked for the bank ;-).
They would back down but how many didn't challenge them?

I asked because WAMU was notorious for underhanded dealings. We got stuck
with them after BOA got rid of their mortgages. It was the worst two years
(or so...) of dealing with a mortgage lender we had ever experienced. We
pre-paid principle and they mis-applied it even with the note in the lower
left corner of the check. Then they argued and refused to make adjustments.
At a point we had paid off our mortgage early but there was still this
outstanding issue of mis-applied funds so they showed us owing a great deal
yet on our mortgage. We tried every direct approach with them only to
continually be told how sorry they were and that it would be corrected - but
it wasn't. Next thing we knew we were in collections - on a mortgage that
we had paid off! Finally I involved the NYS Attorney General office. It
was a bit of work to file everything with them, but it paid off. Next thing
we knew everything was mysteriously straightened out, and we actually got a
refund. WAMU had to notify the 3 credit agencies to clear our dings and in
the end we were whole - but it was a royal pain in the ass. Dealing with a
collections department is something that will **** you off more than
anything in this newsgroup. They treat you like dung, they are rude, and
they are obnoxious. I was never so glad for anything as I was to be rid of
that bank. Not too long afterwards several states Attorney Generals offices
announced investigations into WAMU practices. Shortly after that - Wells
Fargo bought them out. Hope they didn't bring any of the people over...

--

-Mike-

wrote:

hey guys, i am looking to purchase a new table saw.......have a
10 year
old craftsman contractor saw and need to upgrade. i will have to
put it
into my basement with limited space, so looking for decent
contractor saw.
This Grizzly
http://www.grizzly.com/products/Cont...tyle-Saw/G0732
is the saw i am leaning towards purchasing. are there any better
options in
this price range?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Grizzly has this one for just a little more money and the latest issue
of Wood magazine has an article about it.

https://www.grizzly.com/products/10-...Series-/G0715P

http://tinyurl.com/kw4llo2

On 03/04/2014 08:28 PM, wrote:
hey guys, i am looking to purchase a new table saw.......have a 10 year
old craftsman contractor saw and need to upgrade. i will have to put it
into my basement with limited space, so looking for decent contractor saw.
This Grizzly http://www.grizzly.com/products/Cont...tyle-Saw/G0732
is the saw i am leaning towards purchasing. are there any better options in
this price range? tia


http://www.homedepot.com/p/RIDGID-13-Amp-10-in-Professional-Table-Saw-R4512/202500206

--
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure,the creed of ignorance, and the
gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"
-Winston Churchill

On Tue, 11 Mar 2014 12:06:28 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:




This whole disagreement on the SawStop is mostly based on whether you
have a dislike for the SawStop product because of it's owner or if you
simply judge the product on it's own merits. Again if you let emotion
play a part of your decision making you may not get the best deal on
paper. As with anything you buy if you are happy with your decision you
got a good deal for you. We like to buy what we like whether what we
like is a good product or not. When we put aside the good feeling and
look only at the facts we make better decisions.


You have to despise the guy for his tactics to make it law to use his
product.

You have to admire the guy for taking the risk and starting his own
business with the high quality saw.

You have to step back from all of that and make a decision based on
facts and what is best for you.

Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Tue, 11 Mar 2014 12:06:28 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:




This whole disagreement on the SawStop is mostly based on whether you
have a dislike for the SawStop product because of it's owner or if you
simply judge the product on it's own merits. Again if you let emotion
play a part of your decision making you may not get the best deal on
paper. As with anything you buy if you are happy with your decision you
got a good deal for you. We like to buy what we like whether what we
like is a good product or not. When we put aside the good feeling and
look only at the facts we make better decisions.


You have to despise the guy for his tactics to make it law to use his
product.

You have to admire the guy for taking the risk and starting his own
business with the high quality saw.

You have to step back from all of that and make a decision based on
facts and what is best for you.

That's it in a nutshell!

On Tuesday, March 4, 2014 9:28:34 PM UTC-6, wrote:
hey guys, i am looking to purchase a new table saw.......have a 10 year

old craftsman contractor saw and need to upgrade. i will have to put it

into my basement with limited space, so looking for decent contractor saw..

This Grizzly http://www.grizzly.com/products/Cont...tyle-Saw/G0732

is the saw i am leaning towards purchasing. are there any better options in

this price range? tia

Our son has owned what is pretty much that contractor's saw for about seven years. I say "pretty much" because his has the Shop Fox Classic Aluminum fence. If that fence is available for this saw (upgrade, another model) I would go for it. I have owned a Grizzly 1023 for about twelve years and that saw has the Shop Fox original iron fence which is pretty much a Biesemeyer clone. Love the entire package and the fence is very nice. We helped him finish out his house right after he bought it and the saw was very nice to use.

BTW - You might want to consider moving up to the Grizzly 1023 series. Solid as a rock, good dust control and plenty of power and it sits in the same size footprint.

Ron

On Wednesday, March 12, 2014 7:44:16 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Tuesday, March 4, 2014 9:28:34 PM UTC-6, wrote:

hey guys, i am looking to purchase a new table saw.......have a 10 year



old craftsman contractor saw and need to upgrade. i will have to put it



into my basement with limited space, so looking for decent contractor saw.



This Grizzly http://www.grizzly.com/products/Cont...tyle-Saw/G0732



is the saw i am leaning towards purchasing. are there any better options in



this price range? tia



Our son has owned what is pretty much that contractor's saw for about seven years. I say "pretty much" because his has the Shop Fox Classic Aluminum fence. If that fence is available for this saw (upgrade, another model) I would go for it. I have owned a Grizzly 1023 for about twelve years and that saw has the Shop Fox original iron fence which is pretty much a Biesemeyer clone. Love the entire package and the fence is very nice. We helped him finish out his house right after he bought it and the saw was very nice to use.



BTW - You might want to consider moving up to the Grizzly 1023 series. Solid as a rock, good dust control and plenty of power and it sits in the same size footprint.



Ron

OH - And what Ed P. Said above. The Saw Stop is a great looking machine but it is priced out of some people's range.

Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet writes:
On 3/11/2014 4:36 PM, Markem wrote:
On Tue, 11 Mar 2014 14:10:38 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

Leon wrote:
On 3/11/2014 11:58 AM, wrote:
On Tue, 11 Mar 2014 12:44:40 -0400, FrozenNorth
Old tank was nearly 60 years old, I put in a new tank, double walled
with a float in between, first tank leaks, float rises and I know I
have to get another tank. Just pass on the insurance.

Unfortunately, that is not an option in many instances. Many or most
businesses have to have insurance(s) to operate.


And or if they have a mortgage on that property. Lenders do not let
you go without protection for their investments.
They will in a heart beat buy the insurance for you and add it into
your escrow payments and not give a second thought to what insurance
rates you will be paying.

This whole conversation is getting way out of hand. Yes - Leon is right in
some respects, but not in total. Banks do not unilaterly just purchase
insurance that they think you need or even that insurance companys are
pushing. It really pays to talk to people who really know and not pay any
attention to internet newsgroup advice.

Yes but do not let your mortgager buy flood insurance for you or any
other insurance buy it yourself.

Mark

Very good advise. No one cares about saving your money as much as you do.

My State Farm guy called six months ago, and offered some advice that
saved me almost $400/year on auto insurance. YMMV, but he's always been there when
needed and has always done his best to ensure that I get value for my
premium dollar. My parents have had similar experiences with SF in
the midwest (particularly after their house caught fire when a stack pipe
for a wood stove deteriorated in the wall - SF went to the wall for them
to rebuild rapidly and with high quality construction and finishing).

Maybe I'm lucky, and not all state farm agents are so good, but I suspect
that all you hear on the internet are the bad stories, and not the far
more numerous good stories.

On Wed, 12 Mar 2014 06:02:14 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On Tue, 11 Mar 2014 12:06:28 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:




This whole disagreement on the SawStop is mostly based on whether you
have a dislike for the SawStop product because of it's owner or if you
simply judge the product on it's own merits. Again if you let emotion
play a part of your decision making you may not get the best deal on
paper. As with anything you buy if you are happy with your decision you
got a good deal for you. We like to buy what we like whether what we
like is a good product or not. When we put aside the good feeling and
look only at the facts we make better decisions.


You have to despise the guy for his tactics to make it law to use his
product.

+1

You have to admire the guy for taking the risk and starting his own
business with the high quality saw.

+1

You have to step back from all of that and make a decision based on
facts and what is best for you.

Bingo! You ran the board.

On 3/12/2014 6:27 PM, wrote:

Bingo! You ran the board.


EOT?


--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On Thu, 13 Mar 2014 06:07:04 -0500, Swingman wrote:
EOT?

Not likely!

On Thu, 13 Mar 2014 08:41:23 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 13 Mar 2014 06:07:04 -0500, Swingman wrote:
EOT?

Not likely!

Keep it up. There may still be someone out there who doesn't know
what an ass you are.

On 3/13/2014 7:43 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 13 Mar 2014 08:41:23 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 13 Mar 2014 06:07:04 -0500, Swingman wrote:
EOT?

Not likely!

Keep it up. There may still be someone out there who doesn't know
what an ass you are.

Except that wasn't me ...

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

Swingman wrote:
On 3/13/2014 7:43 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 13 Mar 2014 08:41:23 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 13 Mar 2014 06:07:04 -0500, Swingman wrote:
EOT?

Not likely!

Keep it up. There may still be someone out there who doesn't know
what an ass you are.

Except that wasn't me ...

I should have jumped in when you first posted "EOT". My mind immediately
jumped (in a reflex sort of way...) to End Of Tape. How many computer geeks
here remember that term?

BTW - I think you hit on something with that Karl!

--

-Mike-

On Thu, 13 Mar 2014 19:45:47 -0500, Swingman wrote:

On 3/13/2014 7:43 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 13 Mar 2014 08:41:23 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 13 Mar 2014 06:07:04 -0500, Swingman wrote:
EOT?

Not likely!

Keep it up. There may still be someone out there who doesn't know
what an ass you are.

Except that wasn't me ...

??? I was answering the nothing's post.

On Thu, 13 Mar 2014 20:43:33 -0400, wrote:
Keep it up. There may still be someone out there who doesn't know
what an ass you are.

Just have to keep it going don't you? I replied to Swingman half
jokingly and you figured you had to jump in with another hit.

You truly are an emotionally driven, senile old fool aren't you?

On Thu, 13 Mar 2014 21:57:48 -0400, Mike Marlow wrote:

I should have jumped in when you first posted "EOT". My mind
immediately jumped (in a reflex sort of way...) to End Of Tape. How
many computer geeks here remember that term?

$$JOB
$$EOJ


--
Where have all the flowers gone? Pete Seeger 1919-2014

On Thu, 13 Mar 2014 22:38:55 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 13 Mar 2014 20:43:33 -0400, wrote:
Keep it up. There may still be someone out there who doesn't know
what an ass you are.

Just have to keep it going don't you? I replied to Swingman half
jokingly and you figured you had to jump in with another hit.

You just prove what a black pot you are. Keep it up.

You truly are an emotionally driven, senile old fool aren't you?

You're too stupid to read so no one will expect you to think.

On Fri, 14 Mar 2014 12:29:57 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 13 Mar 2014 22:38:55 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 13 Mar 2014 20:43:33 -0400, wrote:
Keep it up. There may still be someone out there who doesn't know
what an ass you are.

Just have to keep it going don't you? I replied to Swingman half
jokingly and you figured you had to jump in with another hit.

You just prove what a black pot you are. Keep it up.

You truly are an emotionally driven, senile old fool aren't you?

You're too stupid to read so no one will expect you to think.

Y'all done till next time?

On 3/13/2014 11:26 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
On Thu, 13 Mar 2014 21:57:48 -0400, Mike Marlow wrote:

I should have jumped in when you first posted "EOT". My mind
immediately jumped (in a reflex sort of way...) to End Of Tape. How
many computer geeks here remember that term?

$$JOB
$$EOJ



EOF end of file

EOD end of day job
EOM end of month job
EOY end of year job
EOQ end of quarter job...

plenty of them..

nothing is like that anymore.

--
Jeff

On 3/13/2014 5:07 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 3/12/2014 6:27 PM, wrote:

Bingo! You ran the board.


EOT?



One more question; where are SawStops manufactured and if in the US are
any parts made "off shore"?
I ask primarily because of the statement on their website:

"100% U.S. Owned, Operated and Engineered"

(nothing about where they're built)

On 3/17/2014 8:22 PM, Max wrote:
On 3/13/2014 5:07 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 3/12/2014 6:27 PM, wrote:

Bingo! You ran the board.


EOT?



One more question; where are SawStops manufactured and if in the US are
any parts made "off shore"?
I ask primarily because of the statement on their website:

"100% U.S. Owned, Operated and Engineered"

(nothing about where they're built)

offshore. I believe Taiwan, not certain.
Nothing is made here anymore that I am aware of.

--
Jeff

On 3/17/2014 7:22 PM, Max wrote:
On 3/13/2014 5:07 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 3/12/2014 6:27 PM, wrote:

Bingo! You ran the board.


EOT?



One more question; where are SawStops manufactured and if in the US are
any parts made "off shore"?
I ask primarily because of the statement on their website:

"100% U.S. Owned, Operated and Engineered"

(nothing about where they're built)


Taiwan If it were built in the USA it really really would be expensive.

On 3/17/2014 10:30 PM, Leon wrote:
On 3/17/2014 7:22 PM, Max wrote:

One more question; where are SawStops manufactured and if in the US are
any parts made "off shore"?
I ask primarily because of the statement on their website:

"100% U.S. Owned, Operated and Engineered"

(nothing about where they're built)


Taiwan If it were built in the USA it really really would be expensive.

I can live with that. ;-)

On 3/4/2014 9:28 PM, wrote:
hey guys, i am looking to purchase a new table saw.......have a 10 year
old craftsman contractor saw and need to upgrade. i will have to put it
into my basement with limited space, so looking for decent contractor saw.
This Grizzly http://www.grizzly.com/products/Cont...tyle-Saw/G0732
is the saw i am leaning towards purchasing. are there any better options in
this price range? tia



To tell you the truth this saw strongly resembles the Craftsman TS that
I bought in 1983 and used for 16 years and had made a few modifications
for improved accuracy. That made it tolerable for precision work.

Unless your current saw is flat worn out, you might not be upgrading at all.

I would be very concerned with the tilt wheel and how it is attached to
the saw. The old Craftsman saws tilt wheel and shaft attached to the
body/trunnion and on the handle end to the side of the saw. The side of
the saw was simply sheet metal and if the side of the saw flexed it
caused the tilt shaft and trunnion to change bevel settings. Hense the
lock lever to help prevent movement after an adjustment on the
Craftsman. Looking at the parts illustration it appears that part# 81
is a stiffener to help minimize the tendency. That may or may not be
adequate for your purpose. Parts 58 and 59 are the locking bolt and
lever to further minimize movement.

The rip fence is basically the same style as the old Craftsman and
probably will be difficult to keep properly adjusted. It locks at the
back end and it is very common for the locking action to pull the fence
out of parallel with the blade when engaged. If it were me I would
look for a Beisemeyer style fence, these are rock solid and almost never
need adjustment after initial set up. They only lock down on the front bar.

Just considering Grizzly I would recommend upgrading to at least this
saw if for no other reason to get the better style rip fence. There are
several other reasons to list but the fence is probably never going to
need to be replaced if precision is what you are looking to achieve.

http://www.grizzly.com/products/10-H...-Series/G0715P

On 3/4/2014 9:28 PM, wrote:
hey guys, i am looking to purchase a new table saw.......have a 10 year
old craftsman contractor saw and need to upgrade. i will have to put it
into my basement with limited space, so looking for decent contractor saw.
This Grizzly http://www.grizzly.com/products/Cont...tyle-Saw/G0732
is the saw i am leaning towards purchasing. are there any better options in
this price range? tia



And now I realized that this was not posted on March 4th a couple of
days ago.. ;~(

I know you have gotten a ton of replies, but I just got a 36" Steel City Artisan saw and love it. The built in roll around comes in handy, don't have to worry about rust, rock solid, only had to make ONE adjustment coming out of the box (one wing adjuster was a tad high), good dust collection. I simply could not be happier and the latest price was around $900 from Tool Werks.

Deb